1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: Perhaps the most impactful justice of the Supreme Court over 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: the last fifty years was Justice Anthony Kennedy. He served 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 1: in the Court for thirty years and wrote some of 4 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: the court's most impactful decisions. Had a chance recent to 5 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 1: sit down with Justice Kennedy talk about his life on 6 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:19,119 Speaker 1: the court, his life outside the court, and how he 7 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: really tried to influence the Court in many different ways 8 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 1: that I think are quite important for the American people. 9 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: Let me ask you, what the outset? Why did you 10 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: decide to write this book? 11 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 2: Now? 12 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 3: I wanted to write about a small town fifty figure. 13 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:41,200 Speaker 3: My children grew up, but they didn't. 14 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 4: Know about those earlier decades, and my grandchildren didn't know. 15 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 3: A whole So it seemed to me interesting to me 16 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 3: to write that time in our culture. We were our 17 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 3: generating after the Great Generation. Right in the small town. 18 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 3: There was a courtesy, there was a professionalism it. They 19 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 3: were simply wanted to write about that Supreme Court. The 20 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 3: first thing that many people do is they forget about it, 21 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,399 Speaker 3: so I Carol Port, they want to read about so 22 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 3: they don't. But we wanted to have this for our 23 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 3: children and our grandchildren to read it. And then as 24 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 3: the writing went on to see me. People were saying 25 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:27,959 Speaker 3: that it might. 26 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: Be adventures to others, as those people that have not 27 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: been a justice of the Supreme Court, and you were 28 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:36,559 Speaker 1: in the court for thirty years. What's the greatest thrill 29 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:39,480 Speaker 1: about being on the court and what's the biggest downside 30 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 1: to being on the court. 31 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:45,959 Speaker 3: The biggest thrill is that you have only cases in 32 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 3: which the law has been undecided, and you recognize that 33 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 3: what you're doing is exploring the law, and you know 34 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 3: that after you write what the law is, what do 35 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 3: you think it is, there's a whole new vista, a 36 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:11,959 Speaker 3: whole new realm to explore. And that's the fascinating part 37 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 3: of it. We only take cases in which other courts 38 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:19,679 Speaker 3: have disagreed. In India, the Supreme Court has to take 39 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 3: every case and they have a fifty thousand case backlog 40 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:26,799 Speaker 3: or something. But we select only the cases in which 41 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 3: other courts have disagreed. And so that's the fascinating part 42 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 3: is that you are on the frontier of the law 43 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 3: and what you write is the beginning of a frontier 44 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:40,360 Speaker 3: because there's new things to explore. 45 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 1: Those people aren't familiar. How you decide, let's go through 46 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: the process. You have people who want to appeal to 47 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court. They have something called asciar right, and 48 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: you accept about you have to have. 49 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 2: Four justices agreed to accepted. 50 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 3: They're called the rule of for You need four or 51 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 3: justices to grant us petitions for sir sure Petitions for 52 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 3: a sir sir sure ari is a motion to please 53 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 3: take our case. And the Court has thousands of petitions 54 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 3: of sir sure ri each year, but they select only 55 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 3: those cases where the courts are in conflict and where 56 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 3: they think the guidance, where we think the guidance of 57 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 3: the court will be helpful. 58 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 1: When the cases are taken, the briefs are submitted by 59 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 1: the lawyers. Do you talk to each other the justice 60 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 1: before you actually hear the world arguments? Or you just 61 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 1: read the briefs and then you go to the oral 62 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: argument and you don't talk to each other before you 63 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: actually hear the oral argument. 64 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 3: We're very careful not to target each other before in 65 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 3: partres and farness to the lawyers, and we don't want 66 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 3: creeds where you and I united disagree and I don't 67 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 3: tell you what I've been talked to the other gender. 68 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 3: We don't do you hear the oral arguments. 69 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 2: You go back to a conference. 70 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: And you have a hair tight room, so nobody can 71 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 1: to what you're saying is and so forth, And nobody 72 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: is allowed in the room other than the justices, right, 73 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: And we have a double door just. 74 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 3: To remind everybody that what goes on in there is 75 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 3: absolutely private forever. 76 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 1: So then you begin to say what your views are, 77 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: and who decides to speak first, who gets to speak first, 78 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:18,799 Speaker 1: and who speaks last? 79 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 3: The chief Justice speaks first, the next most senior justice senior, 80 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 3: because you've he or she has been there. The longest 81 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 3: seniority is not by age, but how long you've been around. 82 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 3: If you're the most junior and it's four to four, 83 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 3: it's very exciting because everybody is listening to what you're 84 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 3: going to say. 85 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 2: So who decides who writes the opinions? Who decides that. 86 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 3: There's a let's assume there's a majority and understand sometimes 87 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:51,480 Speaker 3: they're nan. There's a lot more unan in this opinions 88 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 3: than most people. Great the senior justice in the majority, 89 00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 3: the sign of the majority, and the senior justice. 90 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: Does any justice ever go down to another justice's chambers 91 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:08,600 Speaker 1: and say, you know what, I really don't like your opinion, 92 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: but I'll support you if you support me on another case. 93 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 5: Did you ever do that kind of horse training that no, 94 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 5: that would that would be totally improper, might even be illegal. 95 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 3: Queen you never, You never trade. 96 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 2: Both nothing improper or washing. Whatever happen right now. 97 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:27,480 Speaker 3: Plus, we don't go to the other chambers. We said 98 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 3: it by memo, but everybody gets a copy of that memo. 99 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: So the justices read the memos, they may change their 100 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 1: mind and the opinions. But more times when you were 101 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: on the court, you were the five to four in 102 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 1: the majority than anybody else. 103 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:45,479 Speaker 2: I think that's right. So when you're five to four. 104 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 1: In the majority and you're making the real decisions because 105 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: you're the deciding vote, is that put a special burden 106 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:54,359 Speaker 1: on you to really make sure you're you're comfortable with 107 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:54,920 Speaker 1: the decision. 108 00:05:55,440 --> 00:06:00,839 Speaker 3: You want the views of your other colleagues to indicate 109 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 3: that you're going in the right direction or the wrong 110 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:05,919 Speaker 3: direction there, And there's a lot of interchange and the 111 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 3: memos that way that and that's how we wanted to 112 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,479 Speaker 3: try to put a majority together. Sometimes you're assign the 113 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 3: majority opinion and you'll get a memo. Dear Tony, I've 114 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 3: read your draft opinion. It seems to me better to 115 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 3: wait to read the descent. Oh, it's going to go. 116 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 3: Or sometimes you write a descent and say, you know, 117 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 3: on the other way around, you convinced other people. 118 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 2: Let's talk about Bush, g Gore. 119 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:33,159 Speaker 3: You were right. 120 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,359 Speaker 1: You wrote to procureum opinion, which meant that it's for 121 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: the whole court. 122 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 3: You didn't put your name on it. 123 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: Was that a very difficult decision for the court to 124 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: get involved in the case and then make the decision 125 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 1: that would decide the election to not a. 126 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:48,839 Speaker 3: Difficult decision at all. Seven of us agree with you 127 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,839 Speaker 3: to take it when you have a state court decide 128 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 3: who it's going to be the president of the United 129 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 3: States and say, well, we're too busy to take it. 130 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:59,599 Speaker 3: Gore bought the case. Gore bought the case. And the 131 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 3: rule is that if you're unsuccessful in the lower court 132 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:06,600 Speaker 3: and you come to the Supreme Court, you're the so 133 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 3: called petitioner and your name is first. So it was 134 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 3: Bush who bought the cases of Breme. It was called Bush, 135 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 3: but Gore was the one who started the case. Steven 136 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 3: of us agreed that we should take the case, and 137 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 3: more than a majority six or seven agreed that there 138 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 3: was a legal wrong. The question was how to remedy 139 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 3: the legal wrong in. 140 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 2: That case was five to four. Ultimately five to four. 141 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: The five people who were for Bush were Republican appointees. 142 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 1: The four who were for Gore were the Democratic appointees. 143 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: Some people said that showed that court was really political. 144 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 2: How do you just respond. 145 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 3: To to begin with that, that's wrong? A suitor and 146 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 3: Stevens were both Republican appointees. 147 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 2: Okay, all right, so. 148 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: That you don't think the Court was hurt by the 149 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:56,239 Speaker 1: perception that it was political decision. 150 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 3: The Court's always hurt, it seems to be if if 151 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 3: they if we look political. One of my concerns, my 152 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 3: present day concerns, is there's too much partisanship. President's a point, 153 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 3: justice is from their same party, but the partisanship should 154 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 3: not be an overriding factor. What you look at is temperament, learning, background, reputation, 155 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 3: whether or not you have those qualities of independence and 156 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 3: caution that make for a good judge. And the partisanship 157 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:35,680 Speaker 3: is overemphasized in the Senate during the nomination process. They 158 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 3: should not emphasize it so much. 159 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 1: So you will be always remembered for among other things, 160 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: the decision you wrote to legalize gay marriage. 161 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:46,439 Speaker 2: Yes, and was that. 162 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 1: A difficult decision for you to come to And have 163 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: you found any reason why people are upset about that 164 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: or you think the cot whatever reversed. 165 00:08:56,400 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 3: That decision of course, or upset about it. And it 166 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 3: was a very difficult decision. When we were growing up, 167 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:13,679 Speaker 3: the gay movement was something we just didn't know much 168 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 3: about or to think much about. With my clerks, we 169 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 3: spent days researching the history of marriage, reading the Bible 170 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 3: and great works of Jurisprunes before the Christian era. For me, 171 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:38,559 Speaker 3: the important, perhaps deciding factor was the children. We were 172 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 3: amazed to find that at first it looked like seventy 173 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 3: five thousand children were adopted by gay parents, and then 174 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 3: it turned out they were in the hundreds of thousands. 175 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 3: And these children were in states that did not allow 176 00:09:56,280 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 3: gay marriage. At a disadvance, if the child was sick, 177 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 3: only the adopting parent, not the not the spouse, could 178 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:10,359 Speaker 3: come to see the child in the hospital. The kids 179 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 3: would would have to say they don't have to have 180 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 3: to have two parents. The stigma and the hardship on 181 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 3: the children with a very important factor for for for 182 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 3: those of us in the majority. 183 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: You have been concerned about the civility generally in life, 184 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 1: and you think civil discourse is an important thing in 185 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: our country. Basically, you cement are dissenting opinions in the 186 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:33,959 Speaker 1: Supreme Court aren't quite. 187 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 3: As civil as maybe you want. 188 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 2: Prefer and are concern to you. 189 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: And you're not on the court now, But if you're 190 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:45,679 Speaker 1: concerned that sometimes the justices are very uncomplimentary of each 191 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: other's views. 192 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 3: Yes, it's a great concern to me that our civil discourse, 193 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:58,199 Speaker 3: our civic discourse, is not civil enough. Uh. Aristotle said 194 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:03,079 Speaker 3: that the democracy depends on an open debate where you 195 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 3: respect the dignity of those with whom you disagree. The 196 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:11,560 Speaker 3: democracies only only live if they are sustained over a 197 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 3: period of time by a thoughtful, rational discourse, a discourse 198 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:20,679 Speaker 3: in which you respect the dignity of those with whom 199 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 3: you disagree. And I don't I think that's a danger 200 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:30,719 Speaker 3: in our present day and age. What do they call 201 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 3: it political identity? If you're a member of Party X, 202 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 3: then we just assume you have all these views and 203 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 3: we don't like you, or we do like you. 204 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:43,079 Speaker 2: This is not. 205 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 3: Good for our for our public and for our national discourse. 206 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 3: And we have to remember, David, the rest of the 207 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 3: world looks at the United States to see how democracy works. 208 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: So let's show back for your background for those who 209 00:11:57,520 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 1: aren't familiar with it. 210 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 5: You were born where Sacramento, California, and your father was 211 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 5: what a lawyer? 212 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 3: My father was a solo practitioner and had an amazing 213 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:11,079 Speaker 3: well practice. 214 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 2: And your mother, my mother had come. 215 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 3: To sacodonicsion Man from San Francisco in order to work 216 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:19,599 Speaker 3: for the state government. And she had been indited that 217 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 3: she had been a teacher. 218 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 2: What were your interests of the boy? 219 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 3: We were interested in our family in government. I learned 220 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 3: her meet it at an early age classes editor, when 221 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 3: I was eight or nine years old, and so I 222 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 3: was a little boarded a school and my parents. I 223 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 3: thought it would be a good idea. And a page boy, 224 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 3: the only page boy in the state. 225 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 2: Senator, You must have done pretty well in high school. 226 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 1: You got into Stanford You already getting to Stanford those 227 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 1: days or not that hard? 228 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 3: It was hard to pay for it. 229 00:12:57,360 --> 00:12:58,679 Speaker 2: Stanford has a good law school. 230 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: My son went to Stanford lawschoo Why wasn't Stanford Law 231 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: School the one you went to? Why did you just 232 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 1: choose to go all the way to the east at 233 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: Harvard Law School? 234 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 2: And had you ever been to the east before. 235 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 3: If you had a list of the they could have 236 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:17,679 Speaker 3: a ten finess law professors in the country, six or 237 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:19,319 Speaker 3: eight of them would have been at Harvard. Who's is 238 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 3: simply Stanford was also very very good. 239 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: Harford Law School has a lot of lawyers that come 240 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 1: to Wall Street and do something important like practice corporate 241 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 1: law on Wall Street. 242 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:31,680 Speaker 2: And how come you decided not to do that to 243 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 2: go back west. 244 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 3: It was important for me to go back home. Plus, 245 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 3: my father was not well. 246 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 4: It seemed to the important the help of the family, 247 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:41,079 Speaker 4: and he wanted to be. 248 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 3: At least again whatever even if higher factors in SCCRAM 249 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 3: in San Francisco where the big firm. 250 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:51,320 Speaker 5: He wanted me to know what the structure of the 251 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 5: legal profession was. Where did you meet your wife, Mary? 252 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 4: Mary was also from sacrament Our families knew each other. 253 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:03,439 Speaker 4: Mary's younger, so we did. 254 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 3: Because of the three big thing we knew each other. 255 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 1: You have three children and nine graduates of nine, so 256 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 1: you liked the number nine, like on the court. Right 257 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 1: downside of being on the court is you can't talk 258 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:18,200 Speaker 1: to your wife ever about what you're doing. 259 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 3: No, okay, Mary would never know what I was working on, 260 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 3: what the case was, whether I was writing a majority 261 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 3: or decent. She didn't even know what the case was, 262 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 3: and she'd read about it in the newspapers. Said, oh, 263 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 3: you decided that case. 264 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 1: I said, well yes, so when So you're practicing in 265 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: Sacramento and then somebody gets elected governor of California and 266 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: he asked for some advice. And that person's name was 267 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 1: Ronald Reagan. So you got to know Ronald Reagan. 268 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 3: Yes, we first met before he was running for governor. 269 00:14:54,320 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 3: At the event, and some friends who were mutual friends 270 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 3: that would begin to talk, and I said, there is 271 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 3: a few things you should never ask. I said, One 272 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 3: is about politics. 273 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 4: I said, I know about it the way most people 274 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 4: know about it. 275 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 3: So far, all the inspired things that you had had 276 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 3: one of the best political teams ever exampled. But he 277 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 3: didn't need any advice from me, So I said, don't 278 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 3: ask me about politics. I said, second, don't ever ask 279 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 3: me who should be appointed a judge. And he said, oh, 280 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 3: that's where you could really help. And I said, well 281 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 3: maybe so maybe no, But if you get as a lawyer, 282 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 3: and I had small cases, but I would go in 283 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 3: the counties around around Sacramento to appear in court. And 284 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 3: if you get the reputation as a judge maker or 285 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 3: a judge breaker, it's not good. The judge is going 286 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 3: to either lean over towards you or lean maybe against 287 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 3: you to show that he's there. And so I just 288 00:15:57,760 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 3: didn't want that. So I said, don't ever ask me 289 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 3: who at the appointment to judge? 290 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 1: Did you ever show him your Reagan imitation? 291 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 3: No, I don't think so. So but he had a 292 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 3: wonderful sense of humor, and he asked me he wanted 293 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 3: to have a city. 294 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 6: California battle and for both of them, which would kind 295 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 6: of governments sen and and so he asked me to 296 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 6: draft the amendment, and I said, I don't know any 297 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 6: about budgets or bonds or a special appropriations fun He said, oh, 298 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 6: this is a this is an amendment to the Constitution. 299 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 3: And you teach constitutional call. I said, no, no, the 300 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 3: constitutional I teach has nothing to do with But you're 301 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 3: talking about you me. You can't write so that we're 302 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:09,360 Speaker 3: spending too much money. So as a turnout, I told 303 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:11,679 Speaker 3: him that if he could, there were two or three 304 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 3: very brilliant people of the were acquaintances of my own. 305 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,400 Speaker 3: Pretty soon Reagan got the part he was he could 306 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:18,879 Speaker 3: absorb it. 307 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 1: He later called you and said, Gerald Ford asked him 308 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: for a recommendation to be on the Ninth Circuit Court 309 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 1: of Appeals, and he recommended you. Although you were only 310 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 1: thirty eight years old. You were confirmed easily. And then 311 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 1: a couple of years later, Reagan is President of the 312 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 1: United States. Did you ever think he would be president 313 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:41,400 Speaker 1: United States when you first met him. 314 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:45,639 Speaker 3: When his name starved the servers, I thought, you know, 315 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 3: there's a possibility. 316 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 1: Okay, all right, So he gets to be president United States. 317 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:54,639 Speaker 1: He has a vacancy on the Supreme Court, and he 318 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:56,879 Speaker 1: calls you to be considered for it, and you come 319 00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 1: in for the interview. Yes, denominates you, and you get 320 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 1: confirmed by ninety seven to nothing. Yes, the last justice 321 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 1: to be confirmed unanimously. 322 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 2: So okay, so you get on the court. 323 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: This is I think the only time in the Supreme 324 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:19,119 Speaker 1: Court history where you had the same nine justices for 325 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:21,680 Speaker 1: eleven years. You know, you work together with these same 326 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: people for eleven years. Did you get tired of seeing 327 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:25,120 Speaker 1: them every day? 328 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:25,439 Speaker 3: Or not? 329 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 2: Really? 330 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:30,199 Speaker 3: Just the one of us, it would be uh, we 331 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:32,879 Speaker 3: were together so long. You knew what I did, and 332 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:34,920 Speaker 3: you knew what I am. You were going to say, 333 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 3: and we could be more or less begin from the 334 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 3: beginning from there, and we knew sometimes we wanted to 335 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 3: ready poor cardbok and avice each other, which sometimes you 336 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:50,479 Speaker 3: didn't help. You didn't in the conference knowing exactly how 337 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:51,400 Speaker 3: the cases come out. 338 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:55,400 Speaker 1: So each justice gets four clerks. They're all young Supreme 339 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 1: Court qualified people in terms of the top of their class, 340 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:02,640 Speaker 1: law schools and so forth. How did you pick your clerks? 341 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 1: Did you ever pick any of you said, ups, I 342 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:06,159 Speaker 1: made a mistake. I shouldn't pick this person. 343 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,479 Speaker 3: The people that apply to you have wonderful resumes and 344 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 3: there toward the top of their class, and they've usually 345 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 3: clerked with Court of Appeals judge or a district court judge. 346 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 3: It was important for me often to try to hire 347 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,360 Speaker 3: clerks who have been with a district court. District courts 348 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 3: in a way, United States district court is the best 349 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 3: job in the world. You're the only judge. You run 350 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 3: your own empire, and the trial judge gets to see 351 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:40,239 Speaker 3: real people, get to see jurors and witnesses, and then 352 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 3: turn on the Court of Appeal. We don't don't we 353 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 3: don't have If you ever go to England, we were 354 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 3: there one time and listening to the argument and the 355 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 3: judge that if Council begins to coupe the maxims of 356 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 3: statutory construction, I should be forced to leave the room. 357 00:19:58,040 --> 00:19:59,639 Speaker 3: And the lawyer said, oh, my lord, I would not 358 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:04,639 Speaker 3: wish to precipitates such a limitous event, you know. So 359 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 3: you know they go on like that. But being a 360 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 3: trial judge in England or the United States, I think 361 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 3: maybe the best job in the world. 362 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,200 Speaker 2: What would you like people to know about the court? 363 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: And you know they might get by reading your book 364 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 1: that they might not already. 365 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:22,639 Speaker 3: Know that they should know more precisely how collegial it 366 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 3: really is. We know that if you and I are 367 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 3: the justice together, we know we would disagree. We're supposed 368 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:34,959 Speaker 3: to disagree, that's our job, But the question is how 369 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 3: we disagree. The interaction on the court is much more 370 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:47,400 Speaker 3: fascinating than most people know. You you hear things that 371 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:51,920 Speaker 3: you had not thought of before, and you see new 372 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,440 Speaker 3: possibilities for the law, because after you decide something, there's 373 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 3: a whole new realm for which to explore the future. 374 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,920 Speaker 3: It was my I privileged to serve with seventeen different justices. 375 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 1: Your book is called Life, Law, and Liberty, and I 376 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,159 Speaker 1: enjoyed reading it, certainly. But I want to ask you 377 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:14,680 Speaker 1: a final question. A week that's good. It is had 378 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: by some that if you see the word liberty in 379 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 1: an opinion, you know it's written by Justice Kennedy. Why 380 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 1: is liberty such an important thing to you? 381 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 3: When the authors of the Constitution sat down for a 382 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 3: period but three months in Philadelphia, if they had known 383 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 3: all of the details of what freedom means, they would 384 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:46,359 Speaker 3: have put it down. But they were thoughtful enough to 385 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:51,680 Speaker 3: know that the components of freedom, the components of liberty, 386 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 3: are something we must learn over time. So they use 387 00:21:54,320 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 3: Space's word like life, liberty, and property. Incident, even sometimes 388 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 3: think of this thing. We think of life, liberty and happiness. 389 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 3: That's the Declaration of independence. The Constitution talked about life, liberty, 390 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:13,479 Speaker 3: and property. Why doesn't the Constitution talk about happiness? Because 391 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 3: that's judicially unenforceable, although although perhaps and no judges haved 392 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 3: be ready to try. 393 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: And you always carry a copy of the Constitution with 394 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: you everywhere you go. 395 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 3: Well, usually. 396 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 4: I do. 397 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 3: Because it's interesting. This is both the Constitution and the 398 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 3: Declaration of Independence. If you read the Constitution of the 399 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 3: United States, sit down cover to cover, it'll take you 400 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 3: about two and a half hours, and you'll fall asleep 401 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:47,120 Speaker 3: a part of it. The preamble, the preface is simply beautiful. 402 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 3: The Constitution, it's fascinating that has lasted for We have 403 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,199 Speaker 3: the two d and fifty anniversary of the Declaration of 404 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:06,359 Speaker 3: Independence next year, and we're going to have a time 405 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 3: capsule that people will open two hundred and fifty years 406 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 3: from now. If we put the Constitution of the United 407 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 3: States in the time capsule two hundred and fifty years 408 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 3: from now, will it still be no? Will it still 409 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,400 Speaker 3: be respected? Will it still be the way in which 410 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 3: our nation defines ourselves. It has been for the last 411 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 3: two hundred and fifty years. 412 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,159 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to hear more of my interviews. You 413 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: can subscribe and download my podcast on Spotify, Apple, or 414 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 1: wherever you listen.