1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:24,116 Speaker 1: Pushkin. One of my favorite things about hosting this podcast 2 00:00:24,316 --> 00:00:26,676 Speaker 1: is having a chance to meet longtime fans of the show. 3 00:00:27,156 --> 00:00:29,436 Speaker 1: I love hearing what listeners like you take away from 4 00:00:29,436 --> 00:00:33,636 Speaker 1: different episodes and answering burning questions. But there's one question 5 00:00:33,676 --> 00:00:36,156 Speaker 1: from long term listeners that I get a lot. It's this, 6 00:00:37,076 --> 00:00:39,356 Speaker 1: is there an episode that you, as the host, returned 7 00:00:39,396 --> 00:00:42,156 Speaker 1: to again and again, one that has advice that you 8 00:00:42,196 --> 00:00:45,596 Speaker 1: continue to need even as an expert on this research. That, 9 00:00:45,716 --> 00:00:48,076 Speaker 1: of course, is a tough question to answer, because I 10 00:00:48,116 --> 00:00:50,276 Speaker 1: love pretty much all the episodes we've had a chance 11 00:00:50,316 --> 00:00:52,676 Speaker 1: to share with you, but there is one pair of 12 00:00:52,716 --> 00:00:54,916 Speaker 1: episodes that I do come back to again and again, 13 00:00:55,476 --> 00:00:58,356 Speaker 1: especially when I've been thinking about the science of relationships, 14 00:00:58,436 --> 00:01:00,876 Speaker 1: as we've been doing over the past few shows. It's 15 00:01:00,916 --> 00:01:03,876 Speaker 1: a double episode that I did with John and Julie Gottman, 16 00:01:04,236 --> 00:01:07,316 Speaker 1: a scientist couple who spent over fifty years studying the 17 00:01:07,356 --> 00:01:11,316 Speaker 1: science of love. Of this season on the Science of Relationships, 18 00:01:11,436 --> 00:01:13,956 Speaker 1: I wanted to share this set of episodes one more time. 19 00:01:14,436 --> 00:01:17,316 Speaker 1: In the first episode, which you'll hear today, the Gotments 20 00:01:17,316 --> 00:01:20,396 Speaker 1: share what research shows about the surprising power of attention 21 00:01:20,676 --> 00:01:24,876 Speaker 1: and curiosity for strengthening our relationships. You'll get to hear 22 00:01:24,956 --> 00:01:27,836 Speaker 1: all the Gotman's insights right after the happiness Loud returns 23 00:01:27,916 --> 00:01:44,556 Speaker 1: from this quick break. These days, there's really no shortage 24 00:01:44,556 --> 00:01:47,596 Speaker 1: of relationship advice out there. There are the usual Dear 25 00:01:47,676 --> 00:01:50,876 Speaker 1: Abby and Modern Love type columns and newspapers and magazines. 26 00:01:51,436 --> 00:01:55,916 Speaker 1: There are also reality TV dating shows, couples podcasts, TikTok videos, 27 00:01:56,116 --> 00:02:00,036 Speaker 1: Instagram reels, Reddit dating threads, and on and on and on. 28 00:02:00,516 --> 00:02:03,036 Speaker 1: Some of this advice is helpful, but a lot of 29 00:02:03,036 --> 00:02:05,876 Speaker 1: it isn't backed up by empirical evidence. I wanted to 30 00:02:05,956 --> 00:02:09,756 Speaker 1: explore what the science says about building happier relationships, and 31 00:02:09,756 --> 00:02:11,836 Speaker 1: what better way to begin than with a husband and 32 00:02:11,876 --> 00:02:14,356 Speaker 1: wife team that not only has decades of married life 33 00:02:14,396 --> 00:02:17,356 Speaker 1: experience to draw on, but also a wealth of knowledge 34 00:02:17,396 --> 00:02:19,956 Speaker 1: gained from some truly elegant scientific studies. 35 00:02:20,276 --> 00:02:23,156 Speaker 2: Julie's walking around without grandson on her arms? 36 00:02:24,236 --> 00:02:25,196 Speaker 1: How well does he? 37 00:02:25,196 --> 00:02:27,836 Speaker 2: He is going to be two in January? He just 38 00:02:27,876 --> 00:02:33,476 Speaker 2: started doing imaginative play this morning, Okay, Jules included. 39 00:02:34,756 --> 00:02:38,196 Speaker 1: Doctor Julie Schwartz Gotman is a clinical psychologist who's helped 40 00:02:38,196 --> 00:02:41,676 Speaker 1: people facing challenges in many domains of life, including in 41 00:02:41,716 --> 00:02:43,116 Speaker 1: their romantic relationships. 42 00:02:43,516 --> 00:02:45,676 Speaker 2: By the way, the book is called fight right. I 43 00:02:45,796 --> 00:02:47,236 Speaker 2: bet it would have been good title too. 44 00:02:48,036 --> 00:02:51,036 Speaker 3: I thought of it, so that means it's really great. 45 00:02:51,356 --> 00:02:55,756 Speaker 1: Doctor John Gotman is an academic psychologist and pioneering relationship researcher. 46 00:02:58,556 --> 00:03:01,756 Speaker 1: Back in nineteen seventy six, John used the primitive video 47 00:03:01,796 --> 00:03:05,036 Speaker 1: technology of his day to capture real life couples interacting 48 00:03:05,036 --> 00:03:08,556 Speaker 1: with one another. Collaborating with his then research partner, doctor 49 00:03:08,636 --> 00:03:12,676 Speaker 1: Robert Lovesen, John analyzed hours and hours of taped interviews 50 00:03:12,796 --> 00:03:14,876 Speaker 1: in order to learn how some couples are able to 51 00:03:14,876 --> 00:03:18,196 Speaker 1: maintain healthy relationships and to spot the warning signs that 52 00:03:18,236 --> 00:03:22,956 Speaker 1: a partnership could be doomed. Today, Julie and John run 53 00:03:22,996 --> 00:03:26,636 Speaker 1: the Gotman Institute, an entire research center devoted to studying 54 00:03:26,756 --> 00:03:30,316 Speaker 1: romantic relationships. You probably won't be surprised to hear that 55 00:03:30,396 --> 00:03:32,756 Speaker 1: they have a lot of wise things to say, so 56 00:03:32,876 --> 00:03:35,316 Speaker 1: much so that we've decided to split their interview into 57 00:03:35,316 --> 00:03:38,556 Speaker 1: two chunks. Today, the Gutmans will share what's so called 58 00:03:38,636 --> 00:03:42,156 Speaker 1: masters of relationships can teach us about avoiding the pitfalls 59 00:03:42,156 --> 00:03:46,836 Speaker 1: of criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling. These are the traits 60 00:03:46,836 --> 00:03:49,436 Speaker 1: that John and Julie have christened the four horsemen of 61 00:03:49,516 --> 00:03:53,076 Speaker 1: relationship destruction. They've found that their presence in a partnership 62 00:03:53,116 --> 00:03:57,996 Speaker 1: pretty much guarantees and impending apocalypse. But the real story 63 00:03:58,076 --> 00:04:01,236 Speaker 1: started way before John and Julie even got together, back 64 00:04:01,316 --> 00:04:03,916 Speaker 1: when John and his colleague Robert Levinson were dreaming up 65 00:04:03,916 --> 00:04:07,836 Speaker 1: a way to robustly study relationships inside the laboratory. 66 00:04:08,356 --> 00:04:10,916 Speaker 2: Richard God to really have a good theoria or anything. 67 00:04:10,956 --> 00:04:13,636 Speaker 2: So we just had couples come into this lab talk 68 00:04:13,676 --> 00:04:16,196 Speaker 2: about how their day went after they'd been apart for 69 00:04:16,236 --> 00:04:19,196 Speaker 2: eight hours, and interviewed about the major problem in their 70 00:04:19,236 --> 00:04:22,156 Speaker 2: relationship and asked them to resolve it. And then they 71 00:04:22,156 --> 00:04:25,076 Speaker 2: looked at their videotapes and turned the dial to tell 72 00:04:25,156 --> 00:04:27,996 Speaker 2: us what they were feeling that ranged from very negative 73 00:04:28,036 --> 00:04:30,396 Speaker 2: to very positive. And then we just sent them home 74 00:04:30,636 --> 00:04:33,516 Speaker 2: because we had no clue about how to help anybody, 75 00:04:33,956 --> 00:04:38,276 Speaker 2: you know. And three years later, we recontacted these couples 76 00:04:38,356 --> 00:04:40,956 Speaker 2: to see if they were still together and how happily 77 00:04:41,036 --> 00:04:43,876 Speaker 2: married they were, how their relationship had changed, and then 78 00:04:43,916 --> 00:04:47,636 Speaker 2: we started really looking at the data to get hypotheses 79 00:04:47,996 --> 00:04:51,876 Speaker 2: and really determined over time by doing this study over 80 00:04:51,916 --> 00:04:54,996 Speaker 2: and over again, also with Gahm Lesmian couples that there 81 00:04:55,036 --> 00:04:59,836 Speaker 2: really are masters of relationship and disasters like Bob and I. 82 00:05:00,556 --> 00:05:04,396 Speaker 2: So you know, we actually learned from the research. And 83 00:05:04,436 --> 00:05:07,836 Speaker 2: then twenty six years ago, Julie and I decided to 84 00:05:07,876 --> 00:05:11,196 Speaker 2: work together in the I knew, you know, we were 85 00:05:11,276 --> 00:05:14,676 Speaker 2: paddling in the ocean, and Julie suggested they we work together. 86 00:05:14,716 --> 00:05:17,396 Speaker 2: And it was a great combination because Bob and I 87 00:05:17,436 --> 00:05:20,396 Speaker 2: had no idea to help anybody, and Julie, with our 88 00:05:20,436 --> 00:05:24,196 Speaker 2: clinical experience, we were able to combine and create a 89 00:05:24,236 --> 00:05:27,116 Speaker 2: theory of how relationships work. And then for the last 90 00:05:27,116 --> 00:05:30,396 Speaker 2: twenty six years that we've been testing it out in experiments. 91 00:05:30,916 --> 00:05:32,556 Speaker 1: And so, Julie, I was going to ask your version 92 00:05:32,596 --> 00:05:34,396 Speaker 1: of how you two got together in the first place. 93 00:05:34,396 --> 00:05:35,556 Speaker 1: I guess it involves a canoe. 94 00:05:35,596 --> 00:05:35,756 Speaker 2: Huh. 95 00:05:36,916 --> 00:05:40,156 Speaker 3: How we got together in terms of our studies and 96 00:05:40,236 --> 00:05:41,116 Speaker 3: so a little. 97 00:05:40,836 --> 00:05:43,236 Speaker 1: Bit of both together in terms of the studies and 98 00:05:43,276 --> 00:05:44,756 Speaker 1: in terms of the forever together. 99 00:05:45,596 --> 00:05:49,316 Speaker 3: Okay, let's see, we both moved to Seattle at around 100 00:05:49,316 --> 00:05:53,036 Speaker 3: the same time, so I just finished my PhD. John 101 00:05:53,316 --> 00:05:56,916 Speaker 3: has already been a professor and was moving to University 102 00:05:56,916 --> 00:06:00,596 Speaker 3: of Washington. So we actually met in a coffee house. 103 00:06:00,876 --> 00:06:04,476 Speaker 3: John came over to me and said, I wish you 104 00:06:04,516 --> 00:06:06,916 Speaker 3: would have said you're the most gorgeous thing I've ever seen. 105 00:06:07,156 --> 00:06:09,796 Speaker 3: I really want to have coffee with you. But you know, 106 00:06:09,916 --> 00:06:12,316 Speaker 3: he said, what would you think about having coffee with me? 107 00:06:14,556 --> 00:06:18,396 Speaker 3: You know, kind of a nice try professariat question. So 108 00:06:18,476 --> 00:06:21,516 Speaker 3: I said sure. So he sat down and we had coffee, 109 00:06:21,556 --> 00:06:26,436 Speaker 3: and we had the most incredible conversation, was fantastic, and 110 00:06:26,916 --> 00:06:29,796 Speaker 3: the next conversation we had over the phone was four 111 00:06:29,796 --> 00:06:34,476 Speaker 3: hours long. So there was obviously a connection. And I 112 00:06:34,516 --> 00:06:38,516 Speaker 3: think on our second date, John said, you know, I 113 00:06:38,556 --> 00:06:41,716 Speaker 3: was in another relationship, but I've told her I'm not 114 00:06:41,756 --> 00:06:43,876 Speaker 3: going to see her anymore. I found somebody I want 115 00:06:43,916 --> 00:06:47,076 Speaker 3: to try and work things out with. I immediately had 116 00:06:47,076 --> 00:06:53,276 Speaker 3: a panic attack. It was like really already. But five 117 00:06:53,276 --> 00:06:57,396 Speaker 3: months later he proposed I said yes. And I was 118 00:06:57,476 --> 00:07:01,356 Speaker 3: working purely in clinical work, so I was working with 119 00:07:01,796 --> 00:07:04,636 Speaker 3: really the sickest of the sick. I was working with 120 00:07:04,756 --> 00:07:09,516 Speaker 3: folks who were psychotic, who had severe PTSD, who come 121 00:07:09,556 --> 00:07:13,956 Speaker 3: back from various wars and torture, who might have had 122 00:07:13,996 --> 00:07:17,236 Speaker 3: addictions and so on, and so I was working quite 123 00:07:17,436 --> 00:07:21,876 Speaker 3: intensely with those folks in private practice for about five 124 00:07:21,956 --> 00:07:25,916 Speaker 3: or six years or something. But every night over dinner, 125 00:07:26,076 --> 00:07:29,196 Speaker 3: John would come home and tell me about his research. 126 00:07:29,676 --> 00:07:33,356 Speaker 3: And I kept thinking to myself, maintain your boundaries, stay 127 00:07:33,396 --> 00:07:36,836 Speaker 3: in your old world. You know, it's okay, it's interesting, 128 00:07:36,916 --> 00:07:40,916 Speaker 3: but stay in your own world. And then I didn't. 129 00:07:40,996 --> 00:07:46,916 Speaker 3: So we were out canoeing outside of Orcas Island in 130 00:07:46,996 --> 00:07:50,636 Speaker 3: the sea. It was just absolutely gorgeous, and you suggested 131 00:07:51,916 --> 00:07:56,716 Speaker 3: and let me finish. And I said to him, honey, 132 00:07:56,716 --> 00:07:59,196 Speaker 3: what do you think about taking this stuff out of 133 00:07:59,236 --> 00:08:03,636 Speaker 3: the ivory tower. It's such good knowledge and people have 134 00:08:03,756 --> 00:08:07,036 Speaker 3: no idea of how to have a relationship. So how 135 00:08:07,196 --> 00:08:13,196 Speaker 3: about our try to work on this stuff and create interventions, 136 00:08:13,276 --> 00:08:18,396 Speaker 3: create theory to really prevent what made the disasters fall 137 00:08:18,436 --> 00:08:22,196 Speaker 3: apart years later, and then we'll test it, see how 138 00:08:22,196 --> 00:08:26,196 Speaker 3: it works, and the rest is history. We immediately started 139 00:08:26,716 --> 00:08:30,836 Speaker 3: jumping into that, then formed the Dartlin Institute to start 140 00:08:30,876 --> 00:08:35,076 Speaker 3: having couples workshops, continued our research and. 141 00:08:35,076 --> 00:08:38,276 Speaker 2: So on, and we built this apartment lab like a 142 00:08:38,356 --> 00:08:42,836 Speaker 2: Colder love lab, and saw one hundred and thirty newlywed 143 00:08:42,876 --> 00:08:45,396 Speaker 2: couples just a couple of months after the wedding, and 144 00:08:45,556 --> 00:08:49,236 Speaker 2: followed them as many of them became pregnant and had babies, 145 00:08:49,316 --> 00:08:54,316 Speaker 2: and you know, I learned to study babies and it 146 00:08:54,356 --> 00:08:57,156 Speaker 2: was really fun. And it led to our Bringing Baby 147 00:08:57,156 --> 00:09:01,996 Speaker 2: Home intervention, which has been a most powerful intervention because 148 00:09:02,396 --> 00:09:04,796 Speaker 2: when the first baby arrives in the first three years 149 00:09:04,796 --> 00:09:07,916 Speaker 2: of the baby's life, many couples go through a big 150 00:09:08,036 --> 00:09:11,716 Speaker 2: drop in relationship happiness and fight a lot a lot 151 00:09:11,756 --> 00:09:14,836 Speaker 2: of conflict. But about a third of them don't. And 152 00:09:14,876 --> 00:09:17,316 Speaker 2: we were able to look at the differences between those 153 00:09:17,356 --> 00:09:21,556 Speaker 2: two groups and build this workshop and test it and 154 00:09:21,596 --> 00:09:23,796 Speaker 2: evaluate it and it's very effective. 155 00:09:24,116 --> 00:09:26,556 Speaker 1: And so when we hear your story about getting together, 156 00:09:27,036 --> 00:09:29,556 Speaker 1: it's such a lovely story, I think it can lead 157 00:09:29,596 --> 00:09:31,996 Speaker 1: people to experience a little bit of a misconception that 158 00:09:31,996 --> 00:09:33,396 Speaker 1: I think a lot of us have when it comes 159 00:09:33,436 --> 00:09:35,436 Speaker 1: to love, right, that love just happens. Right. You see 160 00:09:35,476 --> 00:09:37,596 Speaker 1: somebody in a coffee shop, you ask them to coffee, 161 00:09:37,916 --> 00:09:40,636 Speaker 1: and the rest is history. But your work shows that 162 00:09:40,636 --> 00:09:43,916 Speaker 1: that's not really how good love works. Tell me how 163 00:09:43,996 --> 00:09:46,116 Speaker 1: love in some sense really works well. 164 00:09:46,716 --> 00:09:50,436 Speaker 3: First of all, the first phase of a loving relationship, 165 00:09:50,436 --> 00:09:56,116 Speaker 3: which people adoringly call in luck, is basically chemistry. It's 166 00:09:56,196 --> 00:10:00,996 Speaker 3: basically pheromones. You are sensing one another at every level, 167 00:10:01,316 --> 00:10:04,436 Speaker 3: and all the stars come out in the sky. You know, 168 00:10:04,556 --> 00:10:08,436 Speaker 3: you're very excited, you're very happy. Everything is wonderful. It's 169 00:10:08,476 --> 00:10:11,636 Speaker 3: a big honeymoon. You move towards marriage, You get married, 170 00:10:11,676 --> 00:10:14,836 Speaker 3: and then boom, the bond drops. You find out your 171 00:10:14,876 --> 00:10:18,836 Speaker 3: partner is really messy and you're not. You find that 172 00:10:19,436 --> 00:10:24,316 Speaker 3: you know all the differences between you that are significant, 173 00:10:24,436 --> 00:10:28,556 Speaker 3: and that are true for every single couple. Every person 174 00:10:28,676 --> 00:10:34,476 Speaker 3: has their own unique personality and lifestyle preference, and nobody 175 00:10:34,556 --> 00:10:37,116 Speaker 3: is a clone of each other. If they were, we'd 176 00:10:37,116 --> 00:10:40,796 Speaker 3: be bored to tears. And so people are really different, 177 00:10:41,036 --> 00:10:44,236 Speaker 3: and as a result, people have to learn how to 178 00:10:44,476 --> 00:10:51,396 Speaker 3: manage their differences, manage conflict, create a path, a journey forward, 179 00:10:51,636 --> 00:10:56,316 Speaker 3: especially with commitment, in which you're creating a culture that 180 00:10:56,556 --> 00:11:01,396 Speaker 3: honors both of you, honors both of your traditions, your rituals, 181 00:11:01,516 --> 00:11:05,356 Speaker 3: your preferences, and that's not always an easy thing. The 182 00:11:05,436 --> 00:11:09,916 Speaker 3: other thing, too, is that none of us has a nice, stable, 183 00:11:10,236 --> 00:11:14,036 Speaker 3: flatline of the mood. We're always going up and down 184 00:11:14,036 --> 00:11:17,996 Speaker 3: and up and down, and sometimes we're crabby, sometimes we're 185 00:11:18,076 --> 00:11:21,556 Speaker 3: full of delight. Sometimes we just want sleep all day. 186 00:11:22,236 --> 00:11:27,196 Speaker 3: And how does our partner hold that in their hands. 187 00:11:27,356 --> 00:11:31,156 Speaker 3: Are they there for us? Are we there for them? 188 00:11:31,516 --> 00:11:37,156 Speaker 3: That building of trust is incredibly important. Are you there 189 00:11:37,276 --> 00:11:39,596 Speaker 3: for me when I'm sick? Are you there for me 190 00:11:39,636 --> 00:11:42,716 Speaker 3: when I'm depressed? Are you there for me when I'm 191 00:11:42,836 --> 00:11:45,516 Speaker 3: triumphant and I just got a big raise and I 192 00:11:45,516 --> 00:11:48,676 Speaker 3: want to celebrate. Are you there for me when I 193 00:11:48,956 --> 00:11:52,036 Speaker 3: just am so stressed out I can't see street. So 194 00:11:52,236 --> 00:11:55,276 Speaker 3: there's a lot of back and forth in terms of 195 00:11:55,396 --> 00:11:56,676 Speaker 3: testing one another. 196 00:11:56,756 --> 00:11:59,756 Speaker 2: That's a reality. And yeah, all of the trust, all 197 00:11:59,796 --> 00:12:03,196 Speaker 2: of the conflicts of those one hundred and thirty uliuwds, 198 00:12:03,756 --> 00:12:07,076 Speaker 2: we're basically about trust. About what Julie's talking about. Are 199 00:12:07,076 --> 00:12:08,756 Speaker 2: you going to be there for me? Can I count 200 00:12:08,756 --> 00:12:11,476 Speaker 2: on you? And the couples who build trust really go 201 00:12:11,556 --> 00:12:14,956 Speaker 2: on to have a very good relationship, and usually there's 202 00:12:15,076 --> 00:12:19,156 Speaker 2: more commitment. With commitment, there really are saying you're the 203 00:12:19,196 --> 00:12:21,876 Speaker 2: love of my life. There's nobody on the planet that 204 00:12:21,956 --> 00:12:24,436 Speaker 2: can compare to you. I'm old men, And I think. 205 00:12:24,276 --> 00:12:27,276 Speaker 1: This importance of trust gets to another misconception that I 206 00:12:27,276 --> 00:12:28,956 Speaker 1: think a lot of us have, right. I think when 207 00:12:28,996 --> 00:12:32,156 Speaker 1: we think of successful couples, a lot of us mistakenly 208 00:12:32,196 --> 00:12:34,916 Speaker 1: think that there are couples that exist maybe without conflict, 209 00:12:34,956 --> 00:12:36,556 Speaker 1: or they don't fight very much, they don't have a 210 00:12:36,556 --> 00:12:39,796 Speaker 1: lot of negative interactions. But your work has shown that 211 00:12:39,796 --> 00:12:42,596 Speaker 1: the negative interactions might not be as important as the 212 00:12:42,636 --> 00:12:44,796 Speaker 1: flip side. Talk to me a little bit about that. 213 00:12:45,516 --> 00:12:50,956 Speaker 2: Even a woman's anger, for example, which men find unpleasant 214 00:12:51,156 --> 00:12:54,356 Speaker 2: in the moment, in the long run, really is good 215 00:12:54,436 --> 00:12:56,956 Speaker 2: for the relationship. You know, what a lot of couple 216 00:12:57,076 --> 00:13:00,756 Speaker 2: therapists thought was the destruction of anger is actually a 217 00:13:00,756 --> 00:13:04,156 Speaker 2: good thing. So if people can talk about what they 218 00:13:04,156 --> 00:13:07,796 Speaker 2: feel and what they need with one another, then you know, 219 00:13:07,836 --> 00:13:11,916 Speaker 2: these emotions really and be very constructive. And the goal 220 00:13:12,036 --> 00:13:14,836 Speaker 2: of conflict is mutual understanding. 221 00:13:15,236 --> 00:13:18,516 Speaker 3: Yeah, let me say a little more about that. Most people, 222 00:13:18,556 --> 00:13:22,276 Speaker 3: when they have conflicts, what they imagine is just skating 223 00:13:22,316 --> 00:13:26,716 Speaker 3: on the surface. They have this current problem, they've got 224 00:13:26,716 --> 00:13:29,316 Speaker 3: to come up with a fix for that current problem, 225 00:13:29,556 --> 00:13:39,196 Speaker 3: but they're not necessarily aware of all the underlying subterranean messages, history, values, 226 00:13:39,836 --> 00:13:45,756 Speaker 3: ideal dreams that lie beneath that surface that they're arguing about. 227 00:13:46,036 --> 00:13:49,556 Speaker 3: And so part of what we saw Lorie with the 228 00:13:49,636 --> 00:13:54,476 Speaker 3: Masters of Relationship is that they almost always dug deep 229 00:13:54,756 --> 00:13:59,196 Speaker 3: when there was a really significant issue at stake, and 230 00:13:59,236 --> 00:14:03,636 Speaker 3: they would reveal their enduring vulnerabilities, the old scar tissue 231 00:14:03,756 --> 00:14:08,236 Speaker 3: from childhood, baggage they were still carrying, or another relationship, 232 00:14:08,276 --> 00:14:13,156 Speaker 3: an old relationship. Nobody really escapes childhood without some kind 233 00:14:13,156 --> 00:14:16,636 Speaker 3: of baggage. I mean, I've never seen somebody who as 234 00:14:16,956 --> 00:14:21,996 Speaker 3: And thus, when we are fighting for something we believe in, 235 00:14:22,676 --> 00:14:25,876 Speaker 3: some of that baggage can get kicked up, right Like, 236 00:14:25,956 --> 00:14:29,516 Speaker 3: we may feel judged, we may feel rejected, we may 237 00:14:29,556 --> 00:14:32,876 Speaker 3: feel put down, even when our partner is saying, honey, 238 00:14:32,916 --> 00:14:36,836 Speaker 3: you're the most wonderful thing on the planet. Still, you know, 239 00:14:36,876 --> 00:14:40,396 Speaker 3: we're hearing old messages in that brain of ours and 240 00:14:40,516 --> 00:14:45,076 Speaker 3: misinterpreting what our partner is saying. So the successful couples 241 00:14:45,116 --> 00:14:49,796 Speaker 3: are people who really check deeply. Am I hearing you correctly? 242 00:14:50,356 --> 00:14:54,316 Speaker 3: Is this what you're saying? Tell me where that comes from? 243 00:14:54,556 --> 00:14:58,036 Speaker 3: Where did that value get established in your life? Because 244 00:14:58,396 --> 00:15:02,036 Speaker 3: it sounds like it's relatively new and before that you 245 00:15:02,116 --> 00:15:03,476 Speaker 3: had a different set of values. 246 00:15:03,516 --> 00:15:04,196 Speaker 2: What happened? 247 00:15:04,476 --> 00:15:10,476 Speaker 3: It's people really exploring each other's internal landscape to find 248 00:15:10,556 --> 00:15:15,836 Speaker 3: out where does their partner live inside? Who is their partner? Really? 249 00:15:16,276 --> 00:15:20,716 Speaker 3: That's the beauty of conflict, that you're opening up these 250 00:15:20,836 --> 00:15:24,236 Speaker 3: aspects of people's inner world that you may not have 251 00:15:24,316 --> 00:15:28,076 Speaker 3: really been aware of fully and through conflict you learn 252 00:15:28,116 --> 00:15:29,876 Speaker 3: all about that and that's a good thing. 253 00:15:30,236 --> 00:15:32,236 Speaker 1: So I think we're going to dive much more deeply 254 00:15:32,276 --> 00:15:34,516 Speaker 1: into the conflict work. I want to get totally to 255 00:15:34,596 --> 00:15:36,476 Speaker 1: fight right. But I also wanted to start with some 256 00:15:36,516 --> 00:15:39,436 Speaker 1: of your earlier work just on the power of positive interactions, 257 00:15:39,476 --> 00:15:41,476 Speaker 1: because I think when we think about couples that aren't 258 00:15:41,476 --> 00:15:44,116 Speaker 1: doing so great, were mostly thinking about couples that are 259 00:15:44,356 --> 00:15:47,356 Speaker 1: having fights or having conflict or things like that. We 260 00:15:47,596 --> 00:15:50,356 Speaker 1: often don't realize that sometimes it's really about couples not 261 00:15:50,476 --> 00:15:52,756 Speaker 1: investing in the positive side of things and kind of 262 00:15:52,756 --> 00:15:54,636 Speaker 1: getting to some of these bids and things, And so 263 00:15:55,076 --> 00:15:57,516 Speaker 1: you talk about this kind of misconception that the investment 264 00:15:57,596 --> 00:15:59,796 Speaker 1: really needs to be in the positive side of things too. 265 00:16:00,396 --> 00:16:03,716 Speaker 2: We noticed very quickly in the apartment lad that there 266 00:16:03,756 --> 00:16:08,076 Speaker 2: were these small moments where one or both people were 267 00:16:08,116 --> 00:16:11,596 Speaker 2: trying to make make a connection, get their partner's attention 268 00:16:11,876 --> 00:16:15,556 Speaker 2: or interest, or have a conversation, get some affection, tell 269 00:16:15,556 --> 00:16:19,596 Speaker 2: a story, tell a joke, and how the partner responded 270 00:16:19,716 --> 00:16:23,916 Speaker 2: to this bid for connection really predicted the future of 271 00:16:23,916 --> 00:16:26,916 Speaker 2: a relationship. And it's now been called the bird test 272 00:16:27,156 --> 00:16:29,556 Speaker 2: on TikTok, and the idea is, you know, if you're 273 00:16:29,556 --> 00:16:31,636 Speaker 2: trying to get your partner's attention just to look at 274 00:16:31,636 --> 00:16:34,276 Speaker 2: a bird outside and they do, they say, oh, yeah, 275 00:16:34,596 --> 00:16:39,116 Speaker 2: beautiful bird, then that really predicts a very good relationship. 276 00:16:39,436 --> 00:16:41,956 Speaker 2: And in fact, the couples who divorced in the love 277 00:16:42,076 --> 00:16:45,156 Speaker 2: lab had only turned toward bids thirty three percent of 278 00:16:45,236 --> 00:16:48,356 Speaker 2: the time. The couples who were still together six years 279 00:16:48,396 --> 00:16:51,436 Speaker 2: earlier had turned toward these bids eighty six percent of 280 00:16:51,516 --> 00:16:53,676 Speaker 2: the time, So a really huge difference. 281 00:16:53,876 --> 00:16:56,156 Speaker 1: So give me the size how couples can react to 282 00:16:56,196 --> 00:16:58,716 Speaker 1: one another's bids, you know. So maybe because you've talked 283 00:16:58,716 --> 00:17:00,956 Speaker 1: about like three different ways people can kind of react. 284 00:17:01,036 --> 00:17:02,236 Speaker 1: So let me let me. 285 00:17:02,156 --> 00:17:04,636 Speaker 2: Start with a bid now, Honey, you know, I had 286 00:17:04,636 --> 00:17:08,116 Speaker 2: a really disturbing dream westight about your mother. 287 00:17:08,716 --> 00:17:12,316 Speaker 3: Honey, you know what I'm reading? Would you stop interrupting me. 288 00:17:12,796 --> 00:17:17,556 Speaker 3: I don't want to talk about that. That's hostile, right, 289 00:17:17,636 --> 00:17:20,996 Speaker 3: that's turning against that's what we call it, turning against. 290 00:17:21,356 --> 00:17:24,596 Speaker 3: Try again, I really had a disturbing dream last night 291 00:17:24,636 --> 00:17:25,356 Speaker 3: about your mother. 292 00:17:25,676 --> 00:17:29,036 Speaker 2: I'd like to talk to you about it. 293 00:17:29,196 --> 00:17:33,116 Speaker 3: Silence, It's as if your partner didn't say a word, 294 00:17:33,396 --> 00:17:37,156 Speaker 3: they don't exist. That's called turning away, and it makes 295 00:17:37,276 --> 00:17:46,356 Speaker 3: people feel unimportant, devalued, disrespected, invisible. Now let's try it again. 296 00:17:46,916 --> 00:17:49,996 Speaker 2: Hey, I had a really disturbing dream last night. Mother, 297 00:17:50,876 --> 00:17:51,356 Speaker 2: you did? 298 00:17:51,756 --> 00:17:54,356 Speaker 3: Yeah? Really, my mother got into your dream? 299 00:17:54,476 --> 00:17:55,756 Speaker 2: Yeah, she was right in there. 300 00:17:56,036 --> 00:17:59,236 Speaker 3: Oh no, So what happened to tell me about it? 301 00:17:59,396 --> 00:18:03,916 Speaker 2: She was so nice to me? What? Yeah, I know, 302 00:18:05,036 --> 00:18:07,596 Speaker 2: I was really surprised that she was so affectionate. 303 00:18:07,876 --> 00:18:14,156 Speaker 3: That's called turning towards where you're immediately responding with interest, 304 00:18:14,556 --> 00:18:20,556 Speaker 3: with attention, and with connection to your partner's bid for 305 00:18:20,596 --> 00:18:21,116 Speaker 3: a connection. 306 00:18:21,236 --> 00:18:24,196 Speaker 2: It feels so different, you know, when you try to 307 00:18:24,236 --> 00:18:28,196 Speaker 2: connect and your partner doesn't. So the probability we discovered 308 00:18:28,276 --> 00:18:32,116 Speaker 2: a rebidding when your partner turns away is almost zero 309 00:18:32,836 --> 00:18:36,796 Speaker 2: in relationships that are doomed. It's only twenty two percent 310 00:18:36,876 --> 00:18:39,716 Speaker 2: in relationships that are going to stay together. So it's 311 00:18:39,796 --> 00:18:43,076 Speaker 2: very low all the time. So people kind of crumple 312 00:18:43,156 --> 00:18:44,116 Speaker 2: inside a little bit. 313 00:18:44,396 --> 00:18:49,116 Speaker 3: Can I describe an image? If you imagine a sea anemone, 314 00:18:49,316 --> 00:18:52,316 Speaker 3: Those are those creatures you know that have about one 315 00:18:52,396 --> 00:18:57,076 Speaker 3: hundred little tiny fingers, and those fingers will stretch out, 316 00:18:57,276 --> 00:19:02,916 Speaker 3: straightened out, and open up when they're relaxed and they're happy. 317 00:19:02,796 --> 00:19:06,996 Speaker 3: Imagine just poking a little bit, poking in the center, 318 00:19:07,396 --> 00:19:11,396 Speaker 3: which is the equivalent of turning evainst And what happens 319 00:19:11,556 --> 00:19:16,276 Speaker 3: the cnmone folds up its fingers very quickly and tightly 320 00:19:16,796 --> 00:19:21,796 Speaker 3: and is very reluctant to open them up again. That's, 321 00:19:21,956 --> 00:19:26,356 Speaker 3: you know, classically, what happens inside of us when somebody 322 00:19:26,436 --> 00:19:29,756 Speaker 3: turns against our bid. You know, when we're opening up 323 00:19:29,796 --> 00:19:33,956 Speaker 3: to our partner, they turn against her away, we shrink 324 00:19:34,076 --> 00:19:39,436 Speaker 3: down inside of ourselves and again feel unsafe, so we 325 00:19:39,556 --> 00:19:42,076 Speaker 3: don't want to open up again, not for a while. 326 00:19:42,636 --> 00:19:46,036 Speaker 2: So love occurs in these very small moments, which is 327 00:19:46,076 --> 00:19:49,316 Speaker 2: why we say love's avert, because it's what you do 328 00:19:49,556 --> 00:19:51,436 Speaker 2: moment to moment that makes the difference. 329 00:19:51,676 --> 00:19:53,756 Speaker 1: One of the reasons I find this works so powerful 330 00:19:53,836 --> 00:19:55,636 Speaker 1: is that you know, I get the sense, of course 331 00:19:55,676 --> 00:19:58,356 Speaker 1: that when you're kind of being adversarial when your partner 332 00:19:58,356 --> 00:19:59,836 Speaker 1: makes a bid, if you say why are you talking 333 00:19:59,836 --> 00:20:02,156 Speaker 1: to me, or something that that's negative. I think the 334 00:20:02,196 --> 00:20:04,196 Speaker 1: striking thing from your work is that it's just as 335 00:20:04,236 --> 00:20:06,756 Speaker 1: bad when the partner just reacts with silence when you're 336 00:20:06,756 --> 00:20:09,076 Speaker 1: not paying attention after reading your work. I've been more 337 00:20:09,156 --> 00:20:11,596 Speaker 1: much more careful about this with my husband, but there 338 00:20:11,596 --> 00:20:13,956 Speaker 1: are definitely times when I'm you know, checking my email 339 00:20:14,036 --> 00:20:16,596 Speaker 1: or looking at a screen that you know he's mentioning something, 340 00:20:16,636 --> 00:20:18,636 Speaker 1: and my sense like, h this is not interesting, Like 341 00:20:18,676 --> 00:20:21,996 Speaker 1: it's so easy not to pay attention. But when you realize, 342 00:20:21,996 --> 00:20:23,596 Speaker 1: like the person on the other end of that email, 343 00:20:23,636 --> 00:20:25,236 Speaker 1: they're not going to care that I took you know, 344 00:20:25,316 --> 00:20:27,196 Speaker 1: time away for two seconds. But my husband, you know 345 00:20:27,276 --> 00:20:29,196 Speaker 1: that bid it matters a lot if I turn away. 346 00:20:29,636 --> 00:20:30,996 Speaker 1: I mean, is this the kind of thing you see 347 00:20:30,996 --> 00:20:33,796 Speaker 1: in couples nowadays, when there's so many more distractions for 348 00:20:33,836 --> 00:20:34,556 Speaker 1: our bid time? 349 00:20:35,156 --> 00:20:37,836 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, you know. I mean, I'm sure all 350 00:20:37,876 --> 00:20:40,676 Speaker 3: of us have gone into a cafe and we've seen 351 00:20:40,716 --> 00:20:44,396 Speaker 3: a table of four people, maybe every single person is 352 00:20:44,396 --> 00:20:47,036 Speaker 3: on their phone, and they're looking at their screens, they're 353 00:20:47,076 --> 00:20:50,876 Speaker 3: not looking at each other, and there's absolute silence at 354 00:20:50,916 --> 00:20:56,436 Speaker 3: the table. What kind of community connection is that? It's nothing, 355 00:20:57,356 --> 00:21:01,236 Speaker 3: which for me anyway, is very painful to see because 356 00:21:01,316 --> 00:21:04,876 Speaker 3: there's the opportunity all these people sitting together or a 357 00:21:04,916 --> 00:21:13,556 Speaker 3: couple sitting together where they really could be having interaction, connection, laughter, delight, enjoyment, 358 00:21:14,236 --> 00:21:22,516 Speaker 3: sharing stories. Nope, silence that feels very empty, like a 359 00:21:22,636 --> 00:21:24,636 Speaker 3: vaccing exists between them. 360 00:21:24,876 --> 00:21:27,876 Speaker 2: Well, you know what's really amazing, Laurie, is that these 361 00:21:27,916 --> 00:21:32,276 Speaker 2: small moments mount up, you know, and either create an 362 00:21:32,316 --> 00:21:35,076 Speaker 2: emotional bank account that has a lot of good stuff 363 00:21:35,116 --> 00:21:38,316 Speaker 2: in it or one that's barren. In the latter case, 364 00:21:38,396 --> 00:21:41,316 Speaker 2: it leaves people feeling very lonely and then the other 365 00:21:41,956 --> 00:21:45,956 Speaker 2: very full and very connected. And it affects not only 366 00:21:46,756 --> 00:21:51,396 Speaker 2: love in the moment, it affects our physical health and longevity. 367 00:21:51,836 --> 00:21:54,116 Speaker 2: So if we have a more connected relationship, we're going 368 00:21:54,196 --> 00:21:57,356 Speaker 2: to live about seventeen years longer than if we don't. 369 00:21:58,876 --> 00:22:01,436 Speaker 1: If living a longer, happier life isn't a good enough 370 00:22:01,476 --> 00:22:03,516 Speaker 1: reason to pay just a little more attention to our 371 00:22:03,556 --> 00:22:06,556 Speaker 1: loved ones, then I don't know what is. But being 372 00:22:06,596 --> 00:22:09,556 Speaker 1: receptive to our partner's bids for attention are one of 373 00:22:09,596 --> 00:22:13,396 Speaker 1: the things that the Gtmans recommend. Their next challenge involves 374 00:22:13,396 --> 00:22:17,036 Speaker 1: finding ways to remain curious about our lovers, no matter 375 00:22:17,076 --> 00:22:19,716 Speaker 1: how long we've been with them. We'll hear more about 376 00:22:19,756 --> 00:22:22,996 Speaker 1: why building curiosity is so important when the happiness lab 377 00:22:22,996 --> 00:22:34,116 Speaker 1: returns in a moment. If you're months, years, or even 378 00:22:34,196 --> 00:22:37,196 Speaker 1: decades into a relationship, you might be tempted to think 379 00:22:37,236 --> 00:22:39,556 Speaker 1: that you know everything there is to know about your partner, 380 00:22:39,996 --> 00:22:43,556 Speaker 1: But relationship experts Julian John Gotman say that can be 381 00:22:43,596 --> 00:22:46,436 Speaker 1: a fatal assumption. It can also be a problem when 382 00:22:46,476 --> 00:22:49,876 Speaker 1: life simply gets in the way of the usual relationship curiosity. 383 00:22:50,716 --> 00:22:55,436 Speaker 3: When we get busy things to do, children, to pick up, 384 00:22:55,676 --> 00:22:59,316 Speaker 3: meals to me, grocery shopping to do, busy, busy, busy. 385 00:22:59,876 --> 00:23:03,516 Speaker 3: How much time do we actually have to give to 386 00:23:03,756 --> 00:23:08,796 Speaker 3: conversation with our partner Where we're simply just wanting to know, 387 00:23:09,196 --> 00:23:11,676 Speaker 3: how is your day, what was the worst part about 388 00:23:11,676 --> 00:23:15,356 Speaker 3: it for you, what was really happening that upset you, etc. 389 00:23:15,916 --> 00:23:18,556 Speaker 3: We're not asking each other those big questions. 390 00:23:19,236 --> 00:23:21,996 Speaker 1: Julie says that retaining a deep curiosity is vital to 391 00:23:21,996 --> 00:23:24,996 Speaker 1: the health of any relationship, but it's also something that 392 00:23:25,036 --> 00:23:27,436 Speaker 1: often fades after the early days of courtship. 393 00:23:27,756 --> 00:23:30,476 Speaker 3: You may remember when you were first dating or you 394 00:23:30,596 --> 00:23:34,156 Speaker 3: first met your partner, you didn't know anything, and so 395 00:23:34,276 --> 00:23:38,316 Speaker 3: you ask them lots of questions to find out who 396 00:23:38,476 --> 00:23:42,436 Speaker 3: are they? What makes them tick, Where did they come from? 397 00:23:42,636 --> 00:23:47,116 Speaker 3: How did that legacy influence them now? But when we 398 00:23:47,156 --> 00:23:52,556 Speaker 3: get busy with kids, with jobs, with careers, we take 399 00:23:52,636 --> 00:23:55,796 Speaker 3: for granted that we really know our partner, so we 400 00:23:55,836 --> 00:23:59,956 Speaker 3: don't need to ask those questions anymore. But think about it, guys, 401 00:24:00,316 --> 00:24:04,676 Speaker 3: every single day is a new experience, and every new 402 00:24:04,716 --> 00:24:11,476 Speaker 3: experience builds another layer of identity in to each individual. Well, 403 00:24:11,556 --> 00:24:14,876 Speaker 3: how do you keep up with that evolution of your partner? 404 00:24:15,516 --> 00:24:21,876 Speaker 3: That development as they go through new experiences, politics, friendships, 405 00:24:22,196 --> 00:24:26,036 Speaker 3: you know, who do they become? Because we're always in 406 00:24:26,076 --> 00:24:31,996 Speaker 3: a state of becoming. We never have just arrived. That's 407 00:24:32,036 --> 00:24:36,236 Speaker 3: an illusion. We're always becoming, and thus we have to 408 00:24:36,436 --> 00:24:41,036 Speaker 3: keep asking open ended questions, that is, questions that have 409 00:24:41,116 --> 00:24:44,836 Speaker 3: a great, big answer, not just a one word or 410 00:24:44,916 --> 00:24:50,636 Speaker 3: two word answer, to learn who are you today? Who 411 00:24:50,636 --> 00:24:54,116 Speaker 3: do you want to be tomorrow? Those are important questions 412 00:24:54,156 --> 00:24:58,356 Speaker 3: to keep repeating throughout our relationship. May I tell you 413 00:24:58,396 --> 00:24:59,316 Speaker 3: a story, Lorie? 414 00:24:59,556 --> 00:25:00,116 Speaker 2: Oh please? 415 00:25:00,396 --> 00:25:02,876 Speaker 3: Yeah, here's the story how all of this got started. 416 00:25:03,276 --> 00:25:06,676 Speaker 3: When John and I were first married, we didn't have 417 00:25:06,756 --> 00:25:09,276 Speaker 3: much money. He was a professor, I was starting in 418 00:25:09,316 --> 00:25:12,596 Speaker 3: private practice. But we wanted to go out on a date. 419 00:25:12,716 --> 00:25:16,196 Speaker 3: Night once a week. So we lived in Seattle, and 420 00:25:16,236 --> 00:25:20,676 Speaker 3: there's a beautiful hotel called the Sorrento that has a 421 00:25:20,756 --> 00:25:26,116 Speaker 3: magnificent big stone fireplace in the lobby and gorgeous, beautiful 422 00:25:26,236 --> 00:25:30,396 Speaker 3: soft couches that you fold into right in front of 423 00:25:30,396 --> 00:25:33,156 Speaker 3: the fireplace. So what John and I would do is 424 00:25:33,196 --> 00:25:36,396 Speaker 3: we would go to this hotel and we'd pretend we 425 00:25:36,396 --> 00:25:40,076 Speaker 3: were guests and we would grab a couch, stay in 426 00:25:40,116 --> 00:25:43,956 Speaker 3: the couch for three hours, have one drink, which was cheap, 427 00:25:44,556 --> 00:25:46,596 Speaker 3: and at the end of the day we would walk out. 428 00:25:47,196 --> 00:25:51,636 Speaker 3: So during the date, we would ask each other these 429 00:25:51,636 --> 00:25:55,876 Speaker 3: big questions. John always brought a yellow pad and he 430 00:25:55,916 --> 00:25:59,276 Speaker 3: would take notes about my answers, which men, Oh my god, 431 00:25:59,276 --> 00:26:01,916 Speaker 3: I better be careful because one of those answers might 432 00:26:01,956 --> 00:26:05,196 Speaker 3: wind up been a book. So I was very careful 433 00:26:05,236 --> 00:26:07,516 Speaker 3: about what I said. But we were never at a 434 00:26:07,596 --> 00:26:10,756 Speaker 3: loss for questions because there was always more going on 435 00:26:10,956 --> 00:26:12,996 Speaker 3: week to week that we wanted to learn about. 436 00:26:13,156 --> 00:26:16,996 Speaker 2: And later on we developed this tradition of our annual honeymoon. 437 00:26:17,556 --> 00:26:20,236 Speaker 2: We would rent a room and a bed and breakfast, 438 00:26:20,276 --> 00:26:23,196 Speaker 2: and for about two weeks we would ask each other 439 00:26:23,316 --> 00:26:27,396 Speaker 2: three questions, what did you love about this year, what 440 00:26:27,436 --> 00:26:29,916 Speaker 2: did you hate about this year? And what do you 441 00:26:29,956 --> 00:26:32,516 Speaker 2: want next year to be like? So we do kind 442 00:26:32,556 --> 00:26:36,116 Speaker 2: of like a review of the whole relationship for that 443 00:26:36,236 --> 00:26:39,756 Speaker 2: year in that annual honeymoon. We've done it for twenty 444 00:26:39,796 --> 00:26:43,276 Speaker 2: three years now, it's tradition. And we asked those open 445 00:26:43,316 --> 00:26:45,316 Speaker 2: and the questions of each other just to kind of 446 00:26:45,916 --> 00:26:49,916 Speaker 2: understand how our partner has been affected by the year, 447 00:26:50,316 --> 00:26:51,956 Speaker 2: you know, and what they're thinking about. 448 00:26:52,196 --> 00:26:54,316 Speaker 1: It sounds like this is so powerful to just kind 449 00:26:54,316 --> 00:26:56,796 Speaker 1: of take the time to get to know your partner right. 450 00:26:56,836 --> 00:26:59,276 Speaker 1: You could notice them changing over time and so on. 451 00:26:59,316 --> 00:27:00,796 Speaker 1: But this is the kind of thing that we forget 452 00:27:00,796 --> 00:27:03,436 Speaker 1: to do when we're busy. Another thing we forget to 453 00:27:03,476 --> 00:27:06,796 Speaker 1: do when we're busy is to notice our partner's good features. 454 00:27:07,116 --> 00:27:09,076 Speaker 1: But you've argued that we need to fight this tenant. 455 00:27:09,156 --> 00:27:10,796 Speaker 1: See that another thing we can do to make love 456 00:27:10,876 --> 00:27:12,476 Speaker 1: last is to notice the good stuff. 457 00:27:12,556 --> 00:27:15,276 Speaker 2: Can I tell you about a study that is really amazing. 458 00:27:15,396 --> 00:27:19,036 Speaker 2: We didn't do it. This study had observers in couple's 459 00:27:19,076 --> 00:27:24,476 Speaker 2: homes just noting down everything positive that one person said 460 00:27:24,476 --> 00:27:27,716 Speaker 2: to the other, and one observer was observing the husband, 461 00:27:27,716 --> 00:27:31,476 Speaker 2: one observing the life the couple was also scoring what 462 00:27:31,596 --> 00:27:34,996 Speaker 2: their partner was doing positive and what they discovered was 463 00:27:35,036 --> 00:27:39,516 Speaker 2: that when the relationship wasn't going well, people missed fifty 464 00:27:39,556 --> 00:27:42,636 Speaker 2: percent of all this positivity. They just didn't see it. 465 00:27:42,956 --> 00:27:44,876 Speaker 1: So that is, your partner's doing good things. They're taking 466 00:27:44,916 --> 00:27:47,756 Speaker 1: the garbage out, emptying the dishwasher, you know, saying nice things. 467 00:27:47,756 --> 00:27:49,236 Speaker 1: But it's just you don't even notice. 468 00:27:49,236 --> 00:27:51,436 Speaker 2: It's just going over your head. You don't even notice it. Right, 469 00:27:51,636 --> 00:27:55,036 Speaker 2: That's an amazing study, Robinson and Price, the dead study. 470 00:27:55,356 --> 00:27:58,676 Speaker 2: You know, it's so important because here's the positivity, but 471 00:27:59,636 --> 00:28:02,516 Speaker 2: it's not getting noticed by the partner when they're really 472 00:28:02,636 --> 00:28:04,876 Speaker 2: unhappy and their relationship right. 473 00:28:04,956 --> 00:28:05,916 Speaker 1: And so how do we fix that? 474 00:28:06,196 --> 00:28:09,556 Speaker 3: Well, so our model is look for what you're partner 475 00:28:09,716 --> 00:28:14,996 Speaker 3: is doing right and say thank you. Very very simple thing. 476 00:28:15,316 --> 00:28:18,436 Speaker 3: It's a habit of mind. You know, we've grown up 477 00:28:18,476 --> 00:28:22,956 Speaker 3: in a very critical society. This is a very competitive, 478 00:28:23,556 --> 00:28:28,636 Speaker 3: contemptuous place. A lot of times where we're critical, we're 479 00:28:28,676 --> 00:28:34,316 Speaker 3: being criticized, we're always comparing ourselves, sometimes negatively to other people. 480 00:28:34,516 --> 00:28:37,996 Speaker 3: So you've come by it righteously, this habit to look 481 00:28:38,036 --> 00:28:42,516 Speaker 3: for what's going wrong right. But it's not that hard 482 00:28:42,756 --> 00:28:46,916 Speaker 3: to just shift to if my partner wasn't taking out 483 00:28:46,956 --> 00:28:51,116 Speaker 3: the garbage, wouldn't that be a drag? How wonderful that 484 00:28:51,156 --> 00:28:53,676 Speaker 3: they're taking out the garbage. Thank you very much for 485 00:28:53,756 --> 00:28:58,236 Speaker 3: taking out the garbage. So if you imagine your partner's 486 00:28:58,436 --> 00:29:02,596 Speaker 3: not doing this positive thing, it means you'll probably have 487 00:29:02,676 --> 00:29:04,916 Speaker 3: to be doing it, which will stress you out even 488 00:29:04,956 --> 00:29:07,716 Speaker 3: more because you already have a lot on your plate. Right, 489 00:29:08,156 --> 00:29:13,596 Speaker 3: So it's prappedic single gratitude, and it's seeing what are 490 00:29:13,636 --> 00:29:18,436 Speaker 3: they doing, even those little subtle things. Every single morning 491 00:29:18,556 --> 00:29:22,076 Speaker 3: For the last I don't know, thirty seven years since 492 00:29:22,116 --> 00:29:27,036 Speaker 3: we've been together, John's been making our coffee every single morning, 493 00:29:27,436 --> 00:29:30,636 Speaker 3: and here it is, and it's really good, and I 494 00:29:30,716 --> 00:29:37,116 Speaker 3: love it, and I thank him every single morning. He 495 00:29:37,276 --> 00:29:39,596 Speaker 3: knows how I like it, and if I keep saying 496 00:29:39,636 --> 00:29:41,196 Speaker 3: thank you, he'll keep making it. 497 00:29:42,676 --> 00:29:44,676 Speaker 1: And I know you had, if I recall from the book, 498 00:29:44,676 --> 00:29:46,636 Speaker 1: I know you had a story where you really noticed 499 00:29:46,636 --> 00:29:48,956 Speaker 1: for the first time how important that was. When he 500 00:29:49,036 --> 00:29:50,276 Speaker 1: wasn't there to make the coffee. 501 00:29:50,956 --> 00:29:55,116 Speaker 3: Well, I was very sad that he wasn't there, and 502 00:29:55,556 --> 00:29:58,396 Speaker 3: I was thanking God. Does it take five scoops or 503 00:29:58,476 --> 00:30:01,396 Speaker 3: six scoops? And I can't remember what I did, and 504 00:30:01,436 --> 00:30:03,516 Speaker 3: I don't know. I put in seven scoops just for 505 00:30:03,596 --> 00:30:06,316 Speaker 3: the heck of it, and then I shot to the 506 00:30:06,356 --> 00:30:09,916 Speaker 3: ceiling after drinking half aco and stay for the next 507 00:30:10,236 --> 00:30:10,916 Speaker 3: four hours. 508 00:30:11,156 --> 00:30:12,236 Speaker 2: This was not a good thing. 509 00:30:12,716 --> 00:30:16,476 Speaker 3: So the next time when John made a coffee, was like, oh, 510 00:30:16,556 --> 00:30:20,716 Speaker 3: thank you for me. I'm so relieved that you're here 511 00:30:20,876 --> 00:30:21,676 Speaker 3: making a coffee. 512 00:30:21,756 --> 00:30:24,596 Speaker 2: Yeah, this can become a habit of mind. Really, instead 513 00:30:24,596 --> 00:30:28,636 Speaker 2: of focusing on your partner's mistakes and we all make mistakes, 514 00:30:28,876 --> 00:30:30,996 Speaker 2: if you focus on what your partner is doing right 515 00:30:31,076 --> 00:30:35,956 Speaker 2: and really express appreciation for it, then it's an entirely 516 00:30:36,036 --> 00:30:40,396 Speaker 2: different relationship. And actually the person who shifts their habit 517 00:30:40,436 --> 00:30:44,676 Speaker 2: of mind to noticing what's going right actually becomes less 518 00:30:44,676 --> 00:30:48,636 Speaker 2: stressed and they become nicer. That's kind of surprising, but 519 00:30:49,156 --> 00:30:52,156 Speaker 2: you know, when you have that positive habit of mind, 520 00:30:52,396 --> 00:30:55,236 Speaker 2: the world looks a lot kinder and more generous. 521 00:30:55,596 --> 00:30:57,356 Speaker 1: And this is something you've talked about a lot, that 522 00:30:57,396 --> 00:30:59,956 Speaker 1: we really do have much more control over these habits 523 00:30:59,996 --> 00:31:02,516 Speaker 1: of mind than we expect. Right that in some sense, 524 00:31:02,596 --> 00:31:06,316 Speaker 1: this negativity bias not asking these questions, in some ways, 525 00:31:06,316 --> 00:31:09,076 Speaker 1: they're like an active choice, even though we don't realize. 526 00:31:09,676 --> 00:31:10,596 Speaker 2: That's well said. 527 00:31:10,756 --> 00:31:13,436 Speaker 3: Well, first of all, you have to start with intention. 528 00:31:13,996 --> 00:31:17,996 Speaker 3: So is it your intention to make this relationship better? 529 00:31:18,396 --> 00:31:20,556 Speaker 3: You know, in the past, before a lot of this 530 00:31:20,636 --> 00:31:23,596 Speaker 3: research got done, we had no idea of how to 531 00:31:23,636 --> 00:31:27,836 Speaker 3: make relationships better. Did it take more sex, did it 532 00:31:27,876 --> 00:31:31,636 Speaker 3: take better cooking? You know what did it take? But 533 00:31:31,916 --> 00:31:37,276 Speaker 3: now with this research well grounded here and telling us 534 00:31:37,316 --> 00:31:43,116 Speaker 3: what to do, then we have tools. We have alternatives 535 00:31:43,676 --> 00:31:47,556 Speaker 3: as to the good habits to put into place in 536 00:31:47,596 --> 00:31:52,156 Speaker 3: our relationship, and they're really not that hard. Laurie, here's 537 00:31:52,196 --> 00:31:55,476 Speaker 3: how much it takes. Wow, look at that beautiful bird. 538 00:31:56,316 --> 00:31:57,756 Speaker 2: Huh nice. 539 00:31:58,636 --> 00:32:02,236 Speaker 3: That's all it takes. Period, is just a couple of 540 00:32:02,436 --> 00:32:07,156 Speaker 3: little syllables. All of us can do that. It's just 541 00:32:07,236 --> 00:32:12,516 Speaker 3: a matter of our intention or intension to connect, to 542 00:32:12,596 --> 00:32:13,116 Speaker 3: be loving. 543 00:32:13,236 --> 00:32:16,316 Speaker 2: Can I say something here about this? So you know, 544 00:32:16,396 --> 00:32:20,476 Speaker 2: my former graduates to genis Driver discovered that when people 545 00:32:20,556 --> 00:32:24,636 Speaker 2: increase their turning toward, which just takes really an awareness 546 00:32:24,676 --> 00:32:28,676 Speaker 2: of how your partner is reaching out, then what happens 547 00:32:28,796 --> 00:32:32,716 Speaker 2: is when there's conflict, people automatically have a sense of 548 00:32:32,756 --> 00:32:36,476 Speaker 2: humor about themselves. They can laugh at themselves and being 549 00:32:36,476 --> 00:32:41,716 Speaker 2: able to laugh together when you're disagreeing, reduces physiological arousal. 550 00:32:42,196 --> 00:32:46,636 Speaker 2: It really bonds you even though you're disagreeing on atomic 551 00:32:47,196 --> 00:32:48,436 Speaker 2: So it's very powerful. 552 00:32:48,916 --> 00:32:51,076 Speaker 1: And if it's with this other ratio that you've figured out, 553 00:32:51,116 --> 00:32:54,916 Speaker 1: which is that the positivity to negativity ratio overall seems 554 00:32:54,916 --> 00:32:57,236 Speaker 1: to matter, right, so that little infusion of humor can 555 00:32:57,236 --> 00:32:59,676 Speaker 1: be quite powerful. Explain what this ratio is and why 556 00:32:59,716 --> 00:33:01,876 Speaker 1: it's so important for a relationship success. 557 00:33:02,156 --> 00:33:05,476 Speaker 2: So, you know, Bob Levinson and I counted in a 558 00:33:05,516 --> 00:33:09,836 Speaker 2: fifteen minute conflict discussion, how many seconds people are kind 559 00:33:09,916 --> 00:33:14,436 Speaker 2: to each other, interested, curious, generous, saying even small things 560 00:33:14,516 --> 00:33:19,116 Speaker 2: like oh yeah, oh wow. You know, those kinds of reflections. 561 00:33:19,516 --> 00:33:24,316 Speaker 2: They really lubricate the wheels of conflict so that we 562 00:33:24,516 --> 00:33:28,156 Speaker 2: arrive at more mutual understanding. What was a big surprise 563 00:33:28,396 --> 00:33:32,916 Speaker 2: was that the Masters of Relationships during conflict, that ratio 564 00:33:33,236 --> 00:33:39,276 Speaker 2: of positive to negative that interested in one another, that excitement, curiosity, 565 00:33:39,636 --> 00:33:46,676 Speaker 2: agreement understanding was five times as common as negativity in 566 00:33:46,716 --> 00:33:50,676 Speaker 2: the Masters of Relationships, and in couples that were doomed, 567 00:33:51,196 --> 00:33:53,836 Speaker 2: that ratio was zer point eight, just a little bit 568 00:33:53,876 --> 00:33:57,356 Speaker 2: more negativity than positivity. It's very famous in Seattle. I 569 00:33:57,476 --> 00:34:00,996 Speaker 2: was coming out of Starbucks a couple of months ago 570 00:34:01,076 --> 00:34:03,196 Speaker 2: when this guy drove by in his truck and rolled 571 00:34:03,196 --> 00:34:07,436 Speaker 2: down his window and said five to one. Right, you know, 572 00:34:08,076 --> 00:34:10,196 Speaker 2: it's become well known our relation in Seattle. 573 00:34:12,316 --> 00:34:14,916 Speaker 1: When John says it out loud, it seems so obvious. 574 00:34:15,636 --> 00:34:19,356 Speaker 1: Happy relationships spring from two people being warm towards one another, 575 00:34:19,676 --> 00:34:22,876 Speaker 1: willing to express interest in and concern for their partner 576 00:34:23,036 --> 00:34:25,876 Speaker 1: in far greater proportion than any complaints they might air. 577 00:34:26,636 --> 00:34:30,036 Speaker 1: After the break, we'll hear more advice that again sounds obvious, 578 00:34:30,156 --> 00:34:32,996 Speaker 1: but seems to be followed only by those rare masters 579 00:34:32,996 --> 00:34:36,516 Speaker 1: of relationships. That advice is not to treat your partner 580 00:34:36,756 --> 00:34:40,036 Speaker 1: like a mind reader. The happiness lap will be right back. 581 00:34:48,356 --> 00:34:50,676 Speaker 1: Are there things you want from your life, partner? Are 582 00:34:50,716 --> 00:34:53,476 Speaker 1: there issues welling up that bother you or make you unhappy? 583 00:34:53,876 --> 00:34:56,756 Speaker 1: Have you expressed these thoughts openly to your partner? Or 584 00:34:56,796 --> 00:34:59,516 Speaker 1: are you storing these problems away as resentments that are 585 00:34:59,516 --> 00:35:02,676 Speaker 1: slowly building up over time. When you say it out loud, 586 00:35:02,836 --> 00:35:05,476 Speaker 1: it sounds like such a stupid strategy, but it's also 587 00:35:05,516 --> 00:35:08,516 Speaker 1: one a lot of us follow. And doctor Julie Schwartz 588 00:35:08,556 --> 00:35:09,756 Speaker 1: Gootvin has a theory. 589 00:35:09,796 --> 00:35:11,276 Speaker 2: Why, let me. 590 00:35:11,316 --> 00:35:14,676 Speaker 3: Just say first give it some context that in this country, 591 00:35:14,716 --> 00:35:18,476 Speaker 3: at least, we have grown up with the value of 592 00:35:18,716 --> 00:35:22,716 Speaker 3: pull yourself up by your own bootstraps. You're weak when 593 00:35:22,756 --> 00:35:26,356 Speaker 3: you need somebody else. It's not okay to have needs. 594 00:35:26,596 --> 00:35:31,716 Speaker 3: Women especially are called too needy. And you know, here's 595 00:35:31,716 --> 00:35:34,796 Speaker 3: the basic truth. The truth is that human beings are 596 00:35:34,956 --> 00:35:40,116 Speaker 3: pack animals. We are pack animals. We don't survive without 597 00:35:40,236 --> 00:35:44,556 Speaker 3: our tribe or our intimates who are really there for us. 598 00:35:45,236 --> 00:35:49,156 Speaker 3: It's the lone wolf versus the wolf pack. Right, Well, 599 00:35:49,276 --> 00:35:52,836 Speaker 3: we're very similar to that. So what does that mean. 600 00:35:53,516 --> 00:35:57,596 Speaker 3: It means we need to connect. We need to connect 601 00:35:57,756 --> 00:36:04,036 Speaker 3: all the time. So when people feel terrible about expressing 602 00:36:04,116 --> 00:36:08,276 Speaker 3: their needs, they can go two ways. Either they expect 603 00:36:08,316 --> 00:36:11,916 Speaker 3: their partner to their minds and then out of nowhere, 604 00:36:12,276 --> 00:36:16,596 Speaker 3: the partner is hearing. Why didn't you actually see that 605 00:36:16,676 --> 00:36:18,196 Speaker 3: I was sick and bring me tea? 606 00:36:18,236 --> 00:36:19,076 Speaker 2: Why didn't you do that? 607 00:36:19,956 --> 00:36:23,836 Speaker 3: Well, the partner number one didn't know that this first 608 00:36:23,836 --> 00:36:26,596 Speaker 3: person was sick, didn't know they liked tea when they 609 00:36:26,596 --> 00:36:29,516 Speaker 3: were sick, et cetera. How would they know the other 610 00:36:29,596 --> 00:36:34,356 Speaker 3: person is not saying what they need? Right? So those 611 00:36:34,436 --> 00:36:39,396 Speaker 3: needs can stack up over time and create huge amounts 612 00:36:39,396 --> 00:36:44,036 Speaker 3: of resentment and anger that the other person is not 613 00:36:44,196 --> 00:36:47,076 Speaker 3: there for them. But the fact of the matter is 614 00:36:47,276 --> 00:36:50,876 Speaker 3: how would the other know how to be there for 615 00:36:50,956 --> 00:36:54,076 Speaker 3: the first person when the needs are not being expressed. 616 00:36:54,676 --> 00:37:01,436 Speaker 3: So it's incredibly important for people to realize that interdependency 617 00:37:02,196 --> 00:37:08,076 Speaker 3: is what creates a strength in a relationship. An interdependency 618 00:37:08,276 --> 00:37:14,036 Speaker 3: is created by saying what you need in a positive way, 619 00:37:14,596 --> 00:37:19,476 Speaker 3: saying how your partner can shine for you, and then 620 00:37:19,676 --> 00:37:23,556 Speaker 3: hopefully your partner responds in that way, which is really 621 00:37:23,596 --> 00:37:28,836 Speaker 3: fulfilling for you and fulfilling for them because it makes 622 00:37:28,876 --> 00:37:32,916 Speaker 3: them feel valued and trusted that you're expressing a need 623 00:37:33,036 --> 00:37:37,876 Speaker 3: to them. They're the chosen one that you are trusting. 624 00:37:38,116 --> 00:37:40,796 Speaker 2: And let me say something else, Lorie. So far we've 625 00:37:40,836 --> 00:37:44,356 Speaker 2: been talking about asking open ended questions and now we're 626 00:37:44,356 --> 00:37:47,996 Speaker 2: talking about expressing needs. So if your listeners go to 627 00:37:48,156 --> 00:37:52,276 Speaker 2: the app store and type in Gotman card Decks, they 628 00:37:52,316 --> 00:37:57,276 Speaker 2: can download a free app that has expressing needs cards 629 00:37:57,556 --> 00:38:00,156 Speaker 2: that they can go through once a week, you know, 630 00:38:00,276 --> 00:38:02,196 Speaker 2: for a half an hour, and say, well, here's what 631 00:38:02,236 --> 00:38:05,236 Speaker 2: I need from you this week to feel loved, and 632 00:38:05,276 --> 00:38:08,076 Speaker 2: they can have a card deck that has all these 633 00:38:08,076 --> 00:38:11,276 Speaker 2: open ended questions on it that they can use. We 634 00:38:11,396 --> 00:38:14,276 Speaker 2: use these card debts all the time, and they've been 635 00:38:14,316 --> 00:38:18,756 Speaker 2: downloaded about three hundred and fifty thousand times, so they're 636 00:38:18,756 --> 00:38:19,876 Speaker 2: available for free. 637 00:38:19,956 --> 00:38:22,036 Speaker 1: And I think that, you know, having like a little 638 00:38:22,036 --> 00:38:23,916 Speaker 1: bit of help when you're asking for what you need 639 00:38:23,956 --> 00:38:26,196 Speaker 1: can be really important because I know, you know, maybe 640 00:38:26,196 --> 00:38:28,876 Speaker 1: this is just in my own life that you Julie, 641 00:38:28,876 --> 00:38:31,236 Speaker 1: you mentioned that we need to ask with positivity, but 642 00:38:31,316 --> 00:38:33,996 Speaker 1: I think sometimes when you're feeling really resentful, that can 643 00:38:34,076 --> 00:38:36,636 Speaker 1: be hard. And sometimes when you finally go about asking 644 00:38:36,676 --> 00:38:39,516 Speaker 1: for help, it can come off sounding like a criticism. 645 00:38:39,636 --> 00:38:42,276 Speaker 1: It can sell it off like you didn't empty the dishwasher. 646 00:38:42,316 --> 00:38:44,996 Speaker 1: And I needed that talk about maybe a healthier way 647 00:38:45,036 --> 00:38:47,076 Speaker 1: to go about asking for those needs and like the 648 00:38:47,436 --> 00:38:48,996 Speaker 1: steps that we need to get in there to do 649 00:38:49,036 --> 00:38:49,756 Speaker 1: it effectively. 650 00:38:50,396 --> 00:38:52,876 Speaker 3: First of all, let me just insert a little piece 651 00:38:52,916 --> 00:38:57,956 Speaker 3: of research here. What John and Bob and other colleagues 652 00:38:58,116 --> 00:39:02,356 Speaker 3: found is that the first three minutes of a conflict 653 00:39:02,396 --> 00:39:07,436 Speaker 3: conversation when you're bringing up your complaints not only predicts 654 00:39:07,436 --> 00:39:10,716 Speaker 3: how the rest of the conversation will go. That first 655 00:39:10,716 --> 00:39:14,756 Speaker 3: three minutes, it also predicts how well the relationship is 656 00:39:14,836 --> 00:39:18,196 Speaker 3: going to go six years down the road with over 657 00:39:18,356 --> 00:39:23,356 Speaker 3: ninety percent accuracy. So how we bring up our complaint 658 00:39:23,556 --> 00:39:28,036 Speaker 3: is absolutely crucial. We found that successful couples had a 659 00:39:28,036 --> 00:39:32,356 Speaker 3: formula for this, which we really try to practice and 660 00:39:32,396 --> 00:39:37,756 Speaker 3: to teach others to practice. Number one, say what you feel. 661 00:39:37,836 --> 00:39:43,156 Speaker 3: You're describing yourself, so you're saying things like I feel angry, 662 00:39:43,716 --> 00:39:48,796 Speaker 3: I feel resentful, I feel frustrated. You can't sabotage it 663 00:39:48,876 --> 00:39:51,676 Speaker 3: and say I feel that you are an idiot. No, 664 00:39:51,916 --> 00:39:53,796 Speaker 3: it's not going to work, or I feel like there're 665 00:39:53,876 --> 00:39:57,196 Speaker 3: such a schmuck that's not going to work right, So 666 00:39:57,276 --> 00:40:00,596 Speaker 3: it has to be a real emotion. I feel stressed, 667 00:40:01,396 --> 00:40:07,316 Speaker 3: I feel disappointed. Then step two about what Now. Notice 668 00:40:07,356 --> 00:40:10,556 Speaker 3: that's not about who, about your partner and how rotten 669 00:40:10,556 --> 00:40:14,156 Speaker 3: they are. It's about the situation. So it's going to 670 00:40:14,276 --> 00:40:18,876 Speaker 3: sound like I feel upset that there's a new dent 671 00:40:19,116 --> 00:40:24,036 Speaker 3: in the car. That's the situation. I feel angry that 672 00:40:24,636 --> 00:40:29,596 Speaker 3: here's the situation. The bills haven't been paid, I'm sick 673 00:40:29,636 --> 00:40:36,756 Speaker 3: and tired of cooking dinner every night, etc. So you're 674 00:40:36,796 --> 00:40:40,116 Speaker 3: describing the situation and you're feeling about it. Then the 675 00:40:40,356 --> 00:40:45,156 Speaker 3: all important step three. You say what your positive need is, 676 00:40:45,276 --> 00:40:50,756 Speaker 3: and let me distinguish positive from negative. Negative need means 677 00:40:51,036 --> 00:40:55,876 Speaker 3: what you don't want your partner to do. Positive need 678 00:40:56,276 --> 00:40:59,436 Speaker 3: means what you do want your partner to do. So 679 00:40:59,956 --> 00:41:03,116 Speaker 3: if you have a negative need, like stop leaving the 680 00:41:03,236 --> 00:41:07,316 Speaker 3: kitchen a mess, that's a negative, flip it on its 681 00:41:07,356 --> 00:41:10,996 Speaker 3: head and think, oh, what would be the opposite of 682 00:41:11,036 --> 00:41:15,156 Speaker 3: this that I would really like? I wish you would 683 00:41:15,156 --> 00:41:18,996 Speaker 3: clean up the kitchen nightly. That would be such a help. 684 00:41:19,916 --> 00:41:25,116 Speaker 3: And that positive need opens up your partner so much 685 00:41:25,156 --> 00:41:28,876 Speaker 3: more than your partner hearing a criticism, which feels like 686 00:41:28,916 --> 00:41:31,796 Speaker 3: a put down, which makes some want to withdraw and 687 00:41:31,836 --> 00:41:33,596 Speaker 3: pull away or get defensive. 688 00:41:34,236 --> 00:41:37,116 Speaker 1: It's such a powerful strategy because when you say what 689 00:41:37,156 --> 00:41:41,236 Speaker 1: you're healing about what situation, and then stay to positive need. 690 00:41:41,396 --> 00:41:43,876 Speaker 1: Nowhere in there is a critique of your partner, right, 691 00:41:43,956 --> 00:41:46,276 Speaker 1: like you haven't said because you did this bad thing. 692 00:41:46,316 --> 00:41:48,636 Speaker 1: There's no kind of causal thing that your partner did wrong, 693 00:41:48,676 --> 00:41:50,596 Speaker 1: and that must mean that like people just don't get 694 00:41:50,636 --> 00:41:53,356 Speaker 1: as offended. Right, everybody's on board with trying to help it. 695 00:41:53,436 --> 00:41:56,036 Speaker 1: Lets your partner be a help rather than a hindrance 696 00:41:56,076 --> 00:41:57,436 Speaker 1: in this really important. 697 00:41:56,996 --> 00:42:02,196 Speaker 3: Way beautifully said. That's exactly right, That's exactly right. Yes, 698 00:42:02,356 --> 00:42:06,436 Speaker 3: so you're really telling your partner I love you, I 699 00:42:06,636 --> 00:42:10,116 Speaker 3: know you can be there for me, and and if 700 00:42:10,156 --> 00:42:12,956 Speaker 3: you would be there for me in this particular way, 701 00:42:13,036 --> 00:42:14,436 Speaker 3: it would make me so happy. 702 00:42:14,716 --> 00:42:17,396 Speaker 1: Have you all harnessed this kind of strategy for talking 703 00:42:17,436 --> 00:42:21,236 Speaker 1: about your own unmet needs and your relationship? Any good examples? 704 00:42:22,556 --> 00:42:28,356 Speaker 3: Yeah? I would say the books. Probably the books, right, Okay? 705 00:42:28,676 --> 00:42:35,676 Speaker 3: So John is an avid book collector, which means probably 706 00:42:35,676 --> 00:42:41,036 Speaker 3: once a week we get seven books a week, maybe 707 00:42:41,356 --> 00:42:44,836 Speaker 3: something like that. We're getting books all the time. We 708 00:42:44,876 --> 00:42:49,396 Speaker 3: don't have bookshelf space for seven books a week, because 709 00:42:49,636 --> 00:42:52,436 Speaker 3: added up, that's almost thirty books a month. Where are 710 00:42:52,476 --> 00:42:55,756 Speaker 3: you going to put them? So they end up being 711 00:42:56,116 --> 00:42:59,516 Speaker 3: on the stairs, in the front entryway, on the dining 712 00:42:59,596 --> 00:43:01,916 Speaker 3: room table, on the kitchen island. 713 00:43:01,836 --> 00:43:03,036 Speaker 2: You know, everywhere. I heard. 714 00:43:03,076 --> 00:43:04,756 Speaker 3: Side of the bed, on my side of the bed, 715 00:43:05,196 --> 00:43:07,036 Speaker 3: and on his side of the bed. There's such a 716 00:43:07,036 --> 00:43:10,316 Speaker 3: big pile that I risk breaking my neck to bend 717 00:43:10,516 --> 00:43:13,556 Speaker 3: over the books to make the bed. So you know, 718 00:43:13,796 --> 00:43:17,996 Speaker 3: it's a danger to my life. And so what I 719 00:43:18,196 --> 00:43:23,396 Speaker 3: have to do is I know this is his personality 720 00:43:23,396 --> 00:43:27,716 Speaker 3: and lifestyle preference, right, very different than mine. Okay, so 721 00:43:27,836 --> 00:43:30,916 Speaker 3: it doesn't make him a bad person, just makes him 722 00:43:30,916 --> 00:43:35,756 Speaker 3: different than me, right, with just different priorities. And so 723 00:43:36,476 --> 00:43:39,636 Speaker 3: I'll say, honey, would you please clean up the books? 724 00:43:40,396 --> 00:43:43,476 Speaker 3: And he may pay attention or he may not. We too, 725 00:43:44,236 --> 00:43:48,556 Speaker 3: I'll say, sweetie, those books are becoming a danger to me. 726 00:43:48,996 --> 00:43:52,476 Speaker 3: Would you please clean up the books. I'm afraid I'm 727 00:43:52,476 --> 00:43:55,476 Speaker 3: going to trip on them going down the stairs. See 728 00:43:55,476 --> 00:44:01,236 Speaker 3: there's no criticism in there. Okay, Week three, I'm going, honey, 729 00:44:01,636 --> 00:44:05,356 Speaker 3: you know, the voice tone has changed, and I'm saying, honey, 730 00:44:05,996 --> 00:44:08,116 Speaker 3: I'm at risk for breaking my neck. And you don't 731 00:44:08,116 --> 00:44:11,516 Speaker 3: want a dead wire, right, No, you don't, So please 732 00:44:11,636 --> 00:44:13,916 Speaker 3: please please clean up the books. 733 00:44:13,996 --> 00:44:14,636 Speaker 2: I beg you. 734 00:44:14,756 --> 00:44:17,876 Speaker 3: This is a warning. So I do it, and then 735 00:44:17,916 --> 00:44:21,076 Speaker 3: he finally does it, and the books are all cleaned away, 736 00:44:21,076 --> 00:44:23,436 Speaker 3: and then it starts to build again. So we have 737 00:44:23,596 --> 00:44:30,956 Speaker 3: this conversation, Yeah, book periodically once a long, I'd say regularly. 738 00:44:31,636 --> 00:44:33,356 Speaker 1: But it's good that you've been able to figure out 739 00:44:33,356 --> 00:44:35,476 Speaker 1: a way to do it. That's not you know, attacking 740 00:44:35,516 --> 00:44:38,076 Speaker 1: the person's personality, like why are you this kind of 741 00:44:38,116 --> 00:44:40,596 Speaker 1: person who you know collects all these books. It's really 742 00:44:41,036 --> 00:44:43,476 Speaker 1: doing it in a way that's expressing what your needs 743 00:44:43,476 --> 00:44:45,476 Speaker 1: are and kind of giving a clear path to helping 744 00:44:45,556 --> 00:44:46,316 Speaker 1: to which I love. 745 00:44:46,476 --> 00:44:47,236 Speaker 2: So right. 746 00:44:47,716 --> 00:44:51,076 Speaker 3: You know the other thing too that people forget glory 747 00:44:51,436 --> 00:44:53,996 Speaker 3: is that we have to be humble. We have to 748 00:44:54,156 --> 00:44:58,716 Speaker 3: realize that. Okay, we're asking our partner to be perfect, right? 749 00:44:59,236 --> 00:45:00,276 Speaker 3: Are we perfect? 750 00:45:00,876 --> 00:45:01,356 Speaker 2: No way? 751 00:45:01,716 --> 00:45:05,636 Speaker 3: I drive John crazy with would you please clean this up? Well? 752 00:45:05,676 --> 00:45:07,356 Speaker 2: You please clean? I don't want to. 753 00:45:07,556 --> 00:45:09,836 Speaker 3: I just want to sit and read my book. I'm 754 00:45:09,916 --> 00:45:15,716 Speaker 3: driving him nuts with my need for tidiness, right, So 755 00:45:15,876 --> 00:45:21,996 Speaker 3: he's tolerating that in me and being patient and eventually 756 00:45:22,716 --> 00:45:28,276 Speaker 3: supportive putting away the books. So I'm no perfect icon 757 00:45:28,476 --> 00:45:32,796 Speaker 3: either here. I can get grouchy, I can, you know, 758 00:45:32,836 --> 00:45:35,156 Speaker 3: go a little nuts with all the books all over 759 00:45:35,196 --> 00:45:40,636 Speaker 3: the place. He has to tolerate that, right the same 760 00:45:40,676 --> 00:45:43,916 Speaker 3: way I tolerate the difference in how he treats space. 761 00:45:44,556 --> 00:45:48,436 Speaker 3: So okay, I have to be humble about you know, 762 00:45:48,596 --> 00:45:51,276 Speaker 3: my flaws, my faults, And of course you know that 763 00:45:51,356 --> 00:45:55,116 Speaker 3: message is throughout most of our religious texts, you know, 764 00:45:55,276 --> 00:45:58,876 Speaker 3: whatever religion you're in, you know, look at yourself before 765 00:45:58,916 --> 00:46:02,836 Speaker 3: you start criticizing your partner. So I've really tried to 766 00:46:02,996 --> 00:46:04,556 Speaker 3: hone that to a fine heart. 767 00:46:05,756 --> 00:46:06,676 Speaker 2: How you do a good job. 768 00:46:07,076 --> 00:46:11,196 Speaker 1: Yeah, As well as being wise, the Gatmans are just 769 00:46:11,196 --> 00:46:13,476 Speaker 1: a super fun couple to hang out with, and so 770 00:46:13,556 --> 00:46:15,676 Speaker 1: you'll be glad to hear that we've only just scratched 771 00:46:15,716 --> 00:46:17,796 Speaker 1: the surface of the advice that they have to share. 772 00:46:18,316 --> 00:46:20,796 Speaker 1: In the second part of our conversation, they'll let me 773 00:46:20,836 --> 00:46:22,956 Speaker 1: in on some secrets for dealing with one of the 774 00:46:22,956 --> 00:46:26,396 Speaker 1: most upsetting and destabilizing aspects of being in love, the 775 00:46:26,436 --> 00:46:27,916 Speaker 1: inevitable disagreements. 776 00:46:28,396 --> 00:46:31,236 Speaker 2: I turned the phone off, but they didn't turn it off. 777 00:46:31,596 --> 00:46:35,396 Speaker 1: I yea, not seeing I die with your partner is 778 00:46:35,436 --> 00:46:36,356 Speaker 1: perfectly natural. 779 00:46:36,796 --> 00:46:39,676 Speaker 3: I'm really sick and tired of the laundry being all 780 00:46:39,676 --> 00:46:40,436 Speaker 3: over the floor. 781 00:46:40,596 --> 00:46:43,396 Speaker 1: Disagreements shouldn't be swept under the rug ti festa, but 782 00:46:43,476 --> 00:46:45,636 Speaker 1: they also shouldn't generate hostility either. 783 00:46:45,836 --> 00:46:49,196 Speaker 3: I'm just second tired of the stupid, stupid laundry. 784 00:46:49,396 --> 00:46:51,716 Speaker 1: The good news, says the Gotmans, is that there is 785 00:46:51,756 --> 00:46:53,916 Speaker 1: a way that we can all learn to argue better. 786 00:46:54,196 --> 00:46:57,116 Speaker 3: The laundry is on the floor, I really don't like 787 00:46:57,236 --> 00:47:00,996 Speaker 3: seeing it. Would you please clean it up before we 788 00:47:01,076 --> 00:47:01,756 Speaker 3: got den here? 789 00:47:02,516 --> 00:47:05,236 Speaker 1: That's coming up next time on the Happiness Lab with me, 790 00:47:05,516 --> 00:47:06,716 Speaker 1: doctor Laurie Santos,