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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Mollie John Fast and this is Fast Politics. Well,

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Speaker 1: we discussed the top political headlines with some of today's

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Speaker 1: best minds.

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Speaker 2: And Lara Trump is trying to assemble one hundred thousand

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Speaker 2: poll watchers. We have such a great show for you.

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Speaker 3: Today.

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Speaker 2: Janelle Stelson drops by to tell us about her congressional

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Speaker 2: run in Pennsylvania against Scott Perry. That will talk to

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Speaker 2: Lisa Larra and Elizabeth Dias about their new book, The

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Speaker 2: Fall of Row The Rise of a New America. But

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Speaker 2: first we have the host of the Enemy's List, the

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Speaker 2: Lincoln Projects owned Rick Wilson.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back, my friend and yours, Rick Wilson. Let's do it,

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Speaker 1: Rick Wilson, So I want to talk about a little

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Speaker 1: bit of Trump. Pretty interesting. Andrew Ross orkin today, who

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Speaker 1: is on squawk Box and writes deal book for the

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Speaker 1: New York Times, very very smart. Happens to be married

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Speaker 1: to my agent, who I'm obsessed with, and he said

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Speaker 1: something interesting. So there's a lot of anxiety in New

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Speaker 1: York about Trump because besides the fact that he wants

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Speaker 1: to end American democracy, which none of us really like, oh,

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Speaker 1: just that a lot of rich people have pivoted to

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Speaker 1: Trump because he's basically offered to kill all taxes. The

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Speaker 1: other yesterday he said, or maybe was two days ago,

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Speaker 1: he said that he was going to end income tax

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Speaker 1: and just put on a tariff on everything, which is

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Speaker 1: highly inflationary, completely insane and awesome.

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Speaker 4: The math isn't even conceivable for that to work. There

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Speaker 4: is no math that makes that work ever, ever, in

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Speaker 4: the history of the universe. That math doesn't work unless

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Speaker 4: somehow we start importing solid fucking logs of platinum from

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Speaker 4: another planet and we put a tariff on it.

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Speaker 3: But it doesn't work. You can't make it work.

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Speaker 4: It's like a nineteenth century view of economics from a

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Speaker 4: guy who failed economics.

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Speaker 1: Yes, the fact that Trump doesn't understand economics should be

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Speaker 1: the world's most unsurprising thing. But anyways, so, a lot

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Speaker 1: of rich people very excited about Trump because he's offered

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Speaker 1: to basically do whatever they want in order for him

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Speaker 1: to win. He told the oil companies that he was

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Speaker 1: going to make oil great again. He was going to

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Speaker 1: make sure that they could offshore drill wherever they wanted,

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Speaker 1: because oil is the future. I mean, I can't believe

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Speaker 1: he's given up on coal. What a long eight years

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Speaker 1: it's been Remember when he was so excited about Cole

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Speaker 1: I'm going to make coal great again. It was Virginia.

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Speaker 1: It's like, no, honey, it's like you're in an R

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Speaker 1: plus forty seven. Just you know, you don't have to

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Speaker 1: make coal gready, and they're going to vote for you anyway.

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Speaker 4: The idea of Trump's transactional nature is right in the

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Speaker 4: faces of America. But these billionaires that are picking Trump

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Speaker 4: that are going back. Look, you got Steve Schwartzman from

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Speaker 4: Black Rock.

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Speaker 1: Who right, who was always going to vote for Trump.

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Speaker 3: Who was always going to go back to Trump in

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Speaker 3: the end.

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Speaker 1: Even like the fact that his like maybe his kids

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Speaker 1: were like, you can't support him now that he's done insurrection,

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Speaker 1: and he had like a minute where he was like,

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Speaker 1: I think insurrection might be too much, and then he

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Speaker 1: was like, never mind, I'm back.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, never mind, I'm back.

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Speaker 4: And my favorite part of see Schwartzman was like, well,

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Speaker 4: I'm worried about anti Semitism. I'm like, have you met

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Speaker 4: Donald Trump's fucking basse.

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Speaker 1: Dinner with Nick Flints with Nick right for the Jews.

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Speaker 4: I'm like, if you haven't noticed yet, Kanye and Nick

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Speaker 4: flinte is at for dinner, as well as a whole

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Speaker 4: bunch of these other dipshits around Trump That just blew

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Speaker 4: me up.

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Speaker 3: I was like, what, that's your reasoning.

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Speaker 4: But you know what, my guys like Schwartzman, guys like

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Speaker 4: Bernie Marcus, all these people, they go out into the

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Speaker 4: world and they say, let's see if I go from

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Speaker 4: sixteen billion dollars of net worth to fifteen point four,

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Speaker 4: that's the greatest tragedy in all humanity, and I.

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Speaker 3: Must stop it. So I will allow Trump to burn

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Speaker 3: down the world.

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Speaker 1: To end American democracy. Yeah, yeah, they use an interesting

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Speaker 1: rank all could we play this clip from Andrew Ross Sorkin.

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Speaker 5: I will say I was surprised. I spoke to a

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Speaker 5: number of CEOs who I would say walked into the

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Speaker 5: meeting being lump supporter ish or thinking that they might

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Speaker 5: be leaning that direction, who said that he was remarkably meandering,

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Speaker 5: could not keep a straight thought, was all over the map,

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Speaker 5: and that they was maybe not surprising, but was interesting

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Speaker 5: to me because these were people who I think might

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Speaker 5: have been actually predisposed to him, and actually walked out

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Speaker 5: of the room less predisposed to him, actually predisposed to

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Speaker 5: thinking this is not necessary. As one person said, this

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Speaker 5: may not be any different or better than a Biden thought.

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Speaker 5: If you're thinking that way.

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Speaker 1: The only thing I because remember, rich people are very

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Speaker 1: mad at Joe Biden, and I think we need to

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Speaker 1: take a minute here to talk about why Joe Biden

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Speaker 1: has put someone in charge of antitrust who is really

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Speaker 1: really smart.

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Speaker 3: By the way, I just like to point out I

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Speaker 3: am a Lena kh fanboy.

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Speaker 1: Right, Lena Khan?

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Speaker 3: Why am I b Yes, tell us.

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Speaker 4: Why I am a fan of Lina Khan Because I'm

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Speaker 4: a conservative who believe in free markets and not in

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Speaker 4: this goddamn kleptocracy that we've established that allows the people

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Speaker 4: with more lobbyists to win every regulatory fight, and that

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Speaker 4: allows major companies to destroy their competition while it's still

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Speaker 4: in the cradle so that they can retain eighty ninety

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Speaker 4: percent market share. I'm against people who abuse the patent system.

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Speaker 4: I'm against people who who are engaged in the kabuki

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Speaker 4: dance of we're just a company that competes in the

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Speaker 4: market when they own ninety percent of the fucking market. No, no,

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Speaker 4: no no, and if the market is broken because they've

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Speaker 4: managed to short circuit it by regulatory capture, by lobbying,

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Speaker 4: by political favors, by and by manipulating markets.

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Speaker 3: That's not a free market.

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Speaker 4: I approach this from the right, not as like I

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Speaker 4: want the government to run everything. No, No, I want

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Speaker 4: the government to stop giving these corporations everything they want

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Speaker 4: and giving them monopoly power or oligopoly power in the market.

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Speaker 6: Yes.

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Speaker 1: So what I think is important here is that some

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Speaker 1: rich kleptocrats are very pissed. They went into this meeting

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Speaker 1: very trump curious. Andrew ross Organ describes their horror at

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Speaker 1: the level of distracted and also disjointed and also demented

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Speaker 1: rhetoric from Donald J. Trump. Seventy eight years old today,

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Speaker 1: Happy birthday, Donald Trump.

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Speaker 4: All I can say is at the age of seventy eight,

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Speaker 4: where I will be eighteen years from now.

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Speaker 1: Humbo brag.

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Speaker 4: I hope I don't feel the same icy hand of

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Speaker 4: death clenching my heart Donald Trump is now experiencing, because

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Speaker 4: I have to tell you, I don't think this has

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Speaker 4: been a good week for the guy. And we joke

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Speaker 4: about the shark thing, but all the reporting out of

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Speaker 4: the hearing yesterday and one of my friends got to

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Speaker 4: read back from a member yesterday who is a Trump supporter,

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Speaker 4: who said, man, that was awkward.

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Speaker 3: That was fucking weird. That was not great.

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Speaker 1: Someone said it was like a drum uncle.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it was like talking to your drunk uncle at

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Speaker 4: the family reunion. But like I said, a friend of

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Speaker 4: mine spoke to a member who came back and said,

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Speaker 4: that was so awkward.

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Speaker 3: It was not great.

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Speaker 4: And it was a lot of like Trump giving them

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Speaker 4: political advice, which.

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Speaker 3: Is people are like, oh, please God, don't make me

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Speaker 3: do that. Please God, don't make me do that.

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Speaker 4: They're like, you should have zoom town halls. Yes, you

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Speaker 4: should do that. That'll be fun for me.

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Speaker 1: What else did they say?

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Speaker 4: He was on one of his little little revenge things.

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Speaker 4: He was going after Jeff Rowe, who ran santruss billion

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Speaker 4: dollar train wreck of a campaign, and he was going

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Speaker 4: out all these people, you know, you've got to do

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Speaker 4: it my way. And there was also a sense that

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Speaker 4: he was like just crazy, like he's not winning Virginia.

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Speaker 1: Really in Minnesota.

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Speaker 3: It's fabulous to think.

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Speaker 4: But I don't wake up in the morning mill you know,

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Speaker 4: I could worry about any number of things in this campaign.

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Speaker 4: I don't wake up in the morning going, man, what's

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Speaker 4: my strategy to beat Trump in Virginia.

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Speaker 1: Right, I'm looking at the notice in this nonprofit newsroom

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Speaker 1: that I'm like obsessed with.

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Speaker 3: I I love them.

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Speaker 1: They're reporting and they said that Trump suggested that only

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Speaker 1: that abortion only became a complex issue ten years ago,

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Speaker 1: which is probably when he learned about it. I didn't

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Speaker 1: know that.

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Speaker 5: I just you're telling you me not for the first time.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: He told if he were in office, he would have

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Speaker 1: prevented war in Ukraine and also Hamas's attack on October

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Speaker 1: seventh in Israel. Russian ships off the coast of Cuba

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Speaker 1: were a particular interest to Trump, earning him a standing

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Speaker 1: ovation from the only Cuban born lawmaker, Senator Mario Diaz,

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Speaker 1: who you know. Trump also laid into Jeff Rowe as

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Speaker 1: a top former strategist for Ron DeSantis' presidential run. Trump

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Speaker 1: said Roe, who directed millions of dollars to firms he controlled,

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Speaker 1: well advising disantist as surgery on candidates wallets.

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Speaker 3: Let's be clear about something.

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Speaker 4: Jeff row in twenty twenty two was involved in eleven

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Speaker 4: campaigns that spent a total of one hundred and ten

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Speaker 4: million dollars, and he got blown the fuck out.

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Speaker 1: I like him for that.

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Speaker 4: Actually, I think he won one congressional race out of

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Speaker 4: the whole package. Then he jumped over to do Ron

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Speaker 4: DeSantis's inside the campaign and the super pack through some

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Speaker 4: ledger Germaine, which is a word it's under used.

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Speaker 1: I don't even know what it means.

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Speaker 3: What is a man like sleight of hand.

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Speaker 4: His company was representing both the pack and the campaign.

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Speaker 3: They're like, we have a firewall. Uh huh, I bet

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Speaker 3: you do.

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Speaker 4: A long story short, as we all know, President DeSantis'

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Speaker 4: campaign went really really well and as the nominee of

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Speaker 4: the Republican Party President Santa oh wait he did, and

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Speaker 4: he got blown the fuck out in Iowa.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but he is a terrible, terrible, terrible candidate.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, for sure. But Jeff Row also there's a

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Speaker 4: little inside tweak here. He and Jared had this great

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Speaker 4: relationship for a while, and Jared was trying to bring

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Speaker 4: Jeff Row in at one point to overcome all of

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Speaker 4: the Corey Lewandowski, Brad Parscal, Steve Bannon, Yahoo wing ding

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Speaker 4: weirdos in the situation. But instead the battle was won

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Speaker 4: by Susie Wiles and Chris Losovita, who I am told

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Speaker 4: yesterday I was told there was a Trump team call

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Speaker 4: or zoom. I'm not sure which one it was, but

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Speaker 4: they were on a call when the news broke about

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Speaker 4: Trump saying that Milwaukee was a horrible place, and we

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Speaker 4: were told that was like you could hear a pin

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Speaker 4: drop on the call, Like, oh fuck, I'm saying, I

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Speaker 4: want to ask you something about this this weird week.

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Speaker 4: So the Supreme Court yesterday comes out on Mithra pristone

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Speaker 4: with a decision that was a setback on the right,

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Speaker 4: but it was only on standing. So first off, I

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Speaker 4: wanted to ask you about this kind of sing about this.

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Speaker 4: Last night I got to ask Molly about this. What

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Speaker 4: do you think the politics of it mean? And should

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Speaker 4: people be too happy about this? I don't think they should.

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Speaker 1: No. I actually think what's interesting about it, which I

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Speaker 1: was thinking about last night, was like, I mean, look,

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Speaker 1: they threw it out on standing. There is no standing

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Speaker 1: on this, and again it really speaks the Fifth Circuit right.

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Speaker 1: The fact that the Supreme Court even had to like

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Speaker 1: look at this for the Circus right exactly, that the

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court even had to look at something that's crazy

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Speaker 1: is really like it makes them look good again. We

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Speaker 1: know from the Supreme Court. They do earlier decisions that

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Speaker 1: make them look less crazy, and then right before they

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Speaker 1: go on vacation they dump the real crazy ones. So

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Speaker 1: expect some crazy shit to go down. This they never

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Speaker 1: had standing, so I think they'll come back with this.

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Speaker 1: I mean, one of the things that this Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: loves to do is to give you a taste of

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Speaker 1: what's going to happen and then bring it back. Remember

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Speaker 1: Roberts were done with abortion. They have two abortion cases

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Speaker 1: this semester, so I think it's very likely we'll see

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Speaker 1: more on the pills. Look, the pills for them are

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Speaker 1: the worst, right because you know you can have abortions.

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Speaker 4: They make it private, right, they can't stand outside a

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Speaker 4: clinic and screaming at pregnant women.

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Speaker 1: But I think we've already seen an introduction that like

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Speaker 1: two of the most crazy justices are ready to use

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Speaker 1: the Commstock Act for whatever they can. And so I

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Speaker 1: think we know where this is going. Unlike Donald Trump,

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Speaker 1: who can't keep it in his pants, they understand that

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Speaker 1: like abortion is a fucking loser for them. And so

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Speaker 1: while you have like these conferences, say, you know, remember

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Speaker 1: you had the Southern Baptist Convention saying they're going to

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Speaker 1: go after IVF next, which is like just the thing

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Speaker 1: not to say during an election year when Democrats are saying,

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Speaker 1: you're going to go after IVF next, and Republicans are like,

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Speaker 1: we don't want to codify it, but you're good, right.

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Speaker 1: Can you imagine Katie Brett and Ted Cruz are like

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Speaker 1: cursing the Southern Baptists being like, don't say anything about IVF.

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Speaker 3: We got to win the Southern Baptists.

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Speaker 4: They gave Democrats a gift yesterday in this campaign that,

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Speaker 4: as you and I both know, Donald Trump is not

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Speaker 4: a smart man.

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Speaker 1: Has incredible political instinct.

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Speaker 4: He has a feral sense of cunning and instincts that

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Speaker 4: are cunning. And that's why Yesterday's like, oh, Bush is

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Speaker 4: now complicated. Some states are good, some states are not.

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Speaker 4: He understands how deadly this can be if he fucks

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Speaker 4: it up, and he's kind of fuck it up. But

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Speaker 4: this whole thing, I was just curious about your take

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Speaker 4: on it, because I really think that this was a very,

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Speaker 4: very very bad week with the Southern Baptist and I

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Speaker 4: don't want people to get too enthusiastic about this court decision.

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Speaker 3: Thinking, oh, well, they figured it out. They're not going

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Speaker 3: to fuck u. Now, they're gonna.

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Speaker 1: Still yeah, yeah, oh, no question. I think two things.

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Speaker 1: They are going to fuck you and also they are

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Speaker 1: definitely coming for IBF.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and they're coming for birth control. Let's stop pretending

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Speaker 4: they're not.

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Speaker 1: The goal here is to make it so you can't

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Speaker 1: have an IUD and you can't have the morning after

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Speaker 1: pill right now, right there saying right now the position

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Speaker 1: that is on the sort of starting line. It hasn't

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Speaker 1: been fully expressed, but right now it's this embryonic personhood idea.

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Speaker 1: So that means no more IVF. That means no more

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Speaker 1: IUD because an IUD they consider to be an abortion

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Speaker 1: because they keep the feetus from implanting. No more morning

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Speaker 1: after pills. So these are three things they are like

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Speaker 1: actively ready to go after. Once they get those. By

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Speaker 1: the way, we will be back in like the eighteen nineties,

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Speaker 1: like Canada won't be normal. Mexico has legalized abortion, right

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Speaker 1: one of.

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Speaker 4: The largest Catholic countries in the hemisphere is legalized abortion.

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Speaker 1: Well then, yeah, exactly, but we because the two of

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Speaker 1: these Catholics are progressive compared to the Evangelicals that we

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Speaker 1: are being ruled by right now or the evangelicals that

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Speaker 1: make up the Republican Party, because we are they're not

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Speaker 1: empower though they're trying to get back from power. I

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Speaker 1: think it's a real shit show. But I also think

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Speaker 1: it's we're thinking about this, which is Trump is going

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Speaker 1: to try to sell this abortion thing. As you know,

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Speaker 1: one of the greatest tricks that Donald Trump ever pulled

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Speaker 1: was that he people convinced that he was a moderate

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Speaker 1: because he had been a Democrat and because he also,

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Speaker 1: you know, has had all these sexual assault delegations. We thought,

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Speaker 1: who wasn't gonna you don't know whether your religious extreme is,

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Speaker 1: But it turns out he is.

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Speaker 4: Like I said, I just want people to be cautious

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Speaker 4: about that whole thing because I'm convinced that this is

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Speaker 4: basically a Supreme Court headfake, where you know, John Roberts

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Speaker 4: is trying to play his.

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Speaker 3: His home own little big thing. That ain't it, folks,

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Speaker 3: This Supreme Court.

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Speaker 1: We have more decisions today. And the other thing is

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Speaker 1: it's June fourteenth, so like we're going to have two

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Speaker 1: weeks of starting some of the really crazy decisions going.

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Speaker 1: And you know, look, this Supreme Court has one goal.

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Speaker 1: It's to remake the country in the image of this

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Speaker 1: very kind of religious, deeply undemocratic, anti government craziness.

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Speaker 4: It's absolutely true. I think we're now entering the real

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Speaker 4: heat of the campaign. We're coming up on the debate,

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Speaker 4: We're coming up on a lot of moments where people

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Speaker 4: are going to see what the people are made of.

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Speaker 4: I don't think Donald Trump is doing well physically. I

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Speaker 4: don't think he's doing well mentally. I think he is

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Speaker 4: in much deeper trouble than people believe. That doesn't mean

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Speaker 4: we get to take any days off. I don't think

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Speaker 4: this guy is very stable right now. I think the

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Speaker 4: court cases broke his brain like more than it's usually

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Speaker 4: been broken.

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Speaker 3: And I'm here for that.

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Speaker 4: The analogy to nerd out for just a second, this

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Speaker 4: is like Germany in late nineteen forty three. They know

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Speaker 4: they're going to lose the war, but that doesn't mean

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Speaker 4: they're not crazy. And that doesn't mean the fanatic loyalists

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Speaker 4: around Hitler I mean Trump. But I repeat myself, you

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Speaker 4: know the fanatics are going to stay fanatic. But I

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Speaker 4: think they know that the inevitability argument with Trump. They

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Speaker 4: may work with the billionaire class, but it's not working

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Speaker 4: more broadly.

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Speaker 1: Than that right now, Yeah, no, I agree.

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Speaker 3: It's Rick Wilson Ram Sunshine.

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Speaker 1: Spring is here, and I bet you are trying to

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Speaker 1: look fashionable. So why not pick up some fashionable all

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Speaker 1: new Fast Politics merchandise. Yes, we just opened a news

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Speaker 1: store with all new designs just for you. Get t shirts, hoodies, hats,

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Speaker 1: and toe bags. To grab some head to fastpolitics dot com.

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Speaker 2: Janelle Stelson is a candidate in Pennsylvania's tenth congressional district.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Fastpolitics to now, thank you a pleasure, Mollie.

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Speaker 1: So you are running for Congress in Pennsylvania's tenth district.

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Speaker 1: You are running against Scott Perry. I feel like Scott Perry.

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Speaker 1: He's a special kind of Republican candidate to be running against.

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Speaker 7: Well, and you're very polite.

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Speaker 1: Explain to us what your district looks like and what

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Speaker 1: you're doing.

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Speaker 6: You know, my district looks a lot like every other

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Speaker 6: district that wants its needs to be met. For the

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Speaker 6: past twelve years, our sixth term congressman has been doing

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Speaker 6: very little to meet those needs. He has mostly been well,

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Speaker 6: you know, he's kind of dumped in some circles Congressman chaos.

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Speaker 6: These days down in Washington creating a whole wreaking havoc,

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Speaker 6: basically meaning in large part is an anarchist obstructionist. He's

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Speaker 6: the reason this one hundred and eighteenth Congress had at

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Speaker 6: one point achieved fewer pieces of legislation than at any

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Speaker 6: time since the Great Depression back in the nineteen thirties.

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Speaker 6: Thank you, Congressman Perry. That is not exactly meeting my

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Speaker 6: district's needs. The do nothing Congress, right Amen's sister.

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Speaker 1: So explain to us, You're in a very tight district

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Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania, but we just saw a poll that has

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Speaker 1: you guys tied. Explain to us how you win in Pennsylvania's.

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Speaker 6: Tenth Well, I think how you win is something I've

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Speaker 6: been practicing for the past thirty eight years, and that's listening,

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Speaker 6: listening to formally what my viewers had to say were

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Speaker 6: their issues and concerns, and now listening to what I

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Speaker 6: hope will be my constituents say and carrying their voices

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Speaker 6: to the halls of Congress. And that really is why

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Speaker 6: I got into this race, you know, being on air

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Speaker 6: as the Trust did nonpartisan voice for the past thirty

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Speaker 6: eight years, and everybody living rooms is a big deal.

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Speaker 6: And you know, I went from polling place to polling

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Speaker 6: place on our primary day, which was back in April,

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Speaker 6: the end of April, and I won a six way

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Speaker 6: primary by twenty points against some very good candidates, including

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Speaker 6: the nominee from last cycle. But what I was saying

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Speaker 6: is at the polling places, the Republicans were going in

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Speaker 6: or shaking my hands because they know me from TV,

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Speaker 6: and some of them would whisper conspiratorially, I'm going to

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Speaker 6: write you in and so is my husband, and others

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Speaker 6: were saying, you know, we can't vote for you this time,

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Speaker 6: but we got you back in November.

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Speaker 1: Don't worry.

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Speaker 6: And so, you know, that's always great to hear, particularly

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Speaker 6: from Republicans.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there are a lot of people on the progressive

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Speaker 1: side who are mad at Joe Biden. But when you

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Speaker 1: heard that speech that he gave the D Day's speech,

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Speaker 1: there were two different ones, but one of them was

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Speaker 1: an homage to previous president twops spoken on D Day

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Speaker 1: and have spoken about the importance of American democracy. One

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Speaker 1: of the people he gave this homage to was Ronald Reagan. Now, politically,

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Speaker 1: a lot of his policy decisions do not speak to me.

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Speaker 1: But if you're going to compare Democrats and Republicans, they're

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Speaker 1: much closer to each other than they are to Mega.

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Speaker 1: You know what, at I.

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Speaker 6: Look at this as American issues. I'm not somebody like

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Speaker 6: Scott Perry who went to the border a couple months

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Speaker 6: ago and was grand standing. You know, he flew there

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Speaker 6: on the taxpayer dime, even though he touts himself as

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Speaker 6: a fiscal conservative.

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Speaker 1: He off no solutions.

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Speaker 6: He just pointed fingers of blame, which everybody does when

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Speaker 6: they head to the southern border. You know, this is

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Speaker 6: what's wrong with Washington. This is what is wrong with

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Speaker 6: longtime six term politician, Congressman Scott Perry, Congressman Chaos. He

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Speaker 6: goes down, he offers no solutions. You know, this is

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Speaker 6: an American problem, not a Republican or a democratic problem.

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Speaker 6: We need to secure the border, have a proper amount

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Speaker 6: of people working there. Unlike Scott Perry, who has voted

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Speaker 6: to cut funding repeatedly for border security. You know, we

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Speaker 6: need to look at this problem and if we do

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Speaker 6: it right, we can be a shining example of democracy

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Speaker 6: around the world. Let's shore up this deeply broken asylum system.

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Speaker 6: You know, if people are not deemed to have legitimate

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Speaker 6: claims to be in this country, send them home expeditiously

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Speaker 6: and humanity in a humanitarian fashion, get them back to

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Speaker 6: their native countries. And conversely, the people who do have

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Speaker 6: legitimate claims to be here, let's move more quickly to

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Speaker 6: get them assimilated into our communities and work in and

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Speaker 6: pay in taxes and doing the things everybody wants them

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Speaker 6: to be doing. This crisis of refugees and asylum seekers

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Speaker 6: is not getting any easier as the earth becomes less

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Speaker 6: hospitable after the damage we've done, So we can really

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Speaker 6: show people how to do this right again, an American problem,

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Speaker 6: not something that Republicans or Democrats need to be pointing

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Speaker 6: fingers at the other side all the time. Both parties

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Speaker 6: have been watching it for years.

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Speaker 1: I also think though, that there's not a path right,

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Speaker 1: Like if you put money into immigration and you have

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Speaker 1: a path for people for whom they are actually legitimately

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Speaker 1: seeking asylum, right, if you had judges on the border,

440
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,920
Speaker 1: if you could process claims quickly, if you could offer

441
00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:25,800
Speaker 1: a real legal path to citizenship, you know, I mean

442
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,640
Speaker 1: there are solves here that they're just money that is

443
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:29,879
Speaker 1: not going there.

444
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:33,440
Speaker 6: Yeah, and Mollie This is but one example, and there

445
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,200
Speaker 6: are many. I know, we only have minutes for our

446
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,000
Speaker 6: show today, Yeah, but you know, we could probably be

447
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,760
Speaker 6: here for a month talking about all the egregious votes

448
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:43,640
Speaker 6: he's taken during his time in office.

449
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:47,200
Speaker 1: And also Pennsylvania does not share a border with Mexico.

450
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:48,040
Speaker 1: It does not.

451
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,160
Speaker 6: But we're all affected. Again, it's American problem, you know.

452
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:55,040
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, but I do think that it is like

453
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:57,040
Speaker 1: one of the things that I've been struck by with

454
00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,320
Speaker 1: this crew. But Scott Perry also doesn't really leave in

455
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,560
Speaker 1: an American democracy. Can you talk about these Republicans who

456
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:05,120
Speaker 1: have gone authoritarian?

457
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:08,919
Speaker 6: Well, a lot of people think that Scott Berry is

458
00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:10,560
Speaker 6: just a bridge too far right.

459
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:10,840
Speaker 3: Now.

460
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,000
Speaker 6: You know, the extremest votes he has taken time and

461
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,840
Speaker 6: time again that in no way resemble the Republican Party

462
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,560
Speaker 6: at all. He's too extreme for the Republicans now as well,

463
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,119
Speaker 6: you know, you look at January sixth, he's one of

464
00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:26,560
Speaker 6: the architects deeply involved in that day. It is so

465
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:30,440
Speaker 6: disappointing that he's just been put on the House Intelligence Committee,

466
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:34,480
Speaker 6: which of coursees the FBI, which he was under investigation

467
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:38,159
Speaker 6: by the FBI is the agency that seized his phone

468
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,560
Speaker 6: because of his deep involvement in January sixth and the

469
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,439
Speaker 6: deadly insurrection. So you know, it's almost like the fox

470
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 6: guarding the Henhouse. In terms of the Mall Committee after

471
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 6: eating all the heads. This guy was under investigation, and

472
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 6: now he's going to have oversight over the folks who

473
00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 6: are investigating him. It feels deeply broken as an American,

474
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,639
Speaker 6: not in a partisan way. It makes me sad, and

475
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,000
Speaker 6: it sort of seems like we're seeing a little bit,

476
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:09,520
Speaker 6: you know, these things that the Supreme Court is looking

477
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 6: broken these days. This to me is like Justices Alito

478
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:19,720
Speaker 6: and Clarence Thomas not recusing themselves from January sixth cases.

479
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,400
Speaker 6: This is just, you know, somebody has shown you who

480
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 6: they are and shown you why they should not be

481
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 6: involved in whatever structure you're talking about here, we're talking

482
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,280
Speaker 6: about the Intel Committee. You know, it's just a very

483
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:32,920
Speaker 6: very bad fit. And when you have must the Republicans

484
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,159
Speaker 6: questioning and concerned that he would be on that committee,

485
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:38,120
Speaker 6: you know, shame on Speaker Johnson.

486
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, Speaker Johnson really serves at the pleasure

487
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 1: of Donald Trump, right, I mean that's how he got

488
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 1: the job, that's how he keeps the job well.

489
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:49,959
Speaker 6: As I say, I can only handle one extremist at

490
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,160
Speaker 6: a time. I can only handle one election, Dot Denier.

491
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 6: I'm focused on Congressman Perry.

492
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 1: When you are in this moment and you're talking to

493
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 1: people in Pennsylvania and you live in this very purple district,

494
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,600
Speaker 1: what are their concerns, what are they telling you? What

495
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:06,399
Speaker 1: do you hear it?

496
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 6: Well, again, Mollie, to have all week, after twelve years

497
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 6: of relative inaction, things that should not have been urgent

498
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,640
Speaker 6: to attend to have become urgent because of the inaction.

499
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,119
Speaker 6: But I'll tell you probably the top three things I

500
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 6: hear a lot of people talking about, for instance, one

501
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 6: of the extreme right fringe votes that he took that

502
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 6: he was the only one in the Pennsylvanian delegation, no

503
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 6: other Republican, no Democrat. He voted not to give medals

504
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 6: to the officers who protected the Capitol, protected his life

505
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 6: on January sixth, and the lives of his colleagues, so

506
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 6: that in a few hours he could walk back into

507
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 6: the chamber and vote to overturn all of our votes.

508
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 6: People don't want to have their votes overturned. They want

509
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,119
Speaker 6: to know that their voices are heard in the halls

510
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 6: of Congress, and this is a really big deal. And

511
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 6: then you know he didn't comply with the bipartisan commission

512
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 6: that was investigating what happened January sixth to make sure

513
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,119
Speaker 6: it never happens again. You know, he was one of

514
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 6: those He's like, yeah, I'm not talking to them, And

515
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 6: he sought a presidential pardon, which now he says he

516
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 6: didn't seek, but people in the Trump administration said he did.

517
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 6: And if you haven't done anything wrong, I'm not sure

518
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 6: why you have to ask for a pardon, right exactly,

519
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 6: this just me.

520
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:19,719
Speaker 1: I'll tell you.

521
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:22,399
Speaker 6: I hear about that. I hear a lot about choice

522
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:24,399
Speaker 6: and women's reproductive rights.

523
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 1: Oh you do, that's good? Oh yeah, it's huge.

524
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 6: And that is a Republican and a Democratic issue and

525
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,880
Speaker 6: every party in between. I was live on the set

526
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,680
Speaker 6: back in twenty twenty two when the Supreme Court handed

527
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,640
Speaker 6: down the Dobbs decision, overturning Row, and I was put

528
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 6: in the position where I had to look out into

529
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 6: the camera in my best at the time, nonpartisan way

530
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 6: and tell every woman watching that her rights had been

531
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:51,120
Speaker 6: rolled back fifty years.

532
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 1: Were you shocked when it happened?

533
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,639
Speaker 6: I think everybody was kind of shocked. Although we you know,

534
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,120
Speaker 6: at what point do you get desensitized because we're living

535
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 6: in a shocking world world. But yes, I mean, and

536
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:03,880
Speaker 6: of course we had an inkling that it was going

537
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 6: to happen when there was a leap several months before.

538
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 6: But something else really important happened that day. The fact

539
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 6: that in many cases, depending on your age, your mother

540
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 6: had more rights than your daughters or your nieces. That's

541
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 6: a pretty big deal. But I went up to the

542
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 6: newsroom afterward and one of my colleagues was sort of

543
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,680
Speaker 6: hunched down in the corner. And it's somebody who has

544
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 6: to deal with a lot of trauma every day. He's

545
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 6: the person who sends us out to fires and accidents,

546
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 6: and you know, there's a lot of loss of life

547
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:32,880
Speaker 6: on the news. And I touched his shoulder and I said,

548
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 6: to you, okay, and he looked up at me and

549
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,919
Speaker 6: he said, Janelle, you don't know this, but my wife

550
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,160
Speaker 6: was raped and if we had not had abortion available

551
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,639
Speaker 6: to us, our lives would be ruined. And it's a

552
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 6: very important thing to remember on the campaign trail, you

553
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 6: know that it's not just about women, it's about the

554
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,160
Speaker 6: men and the families who love us. And I also

555
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 6: had to seek comment from our local congress people that

556
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 6: evening and in the next couple of days, and Congressman

557
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,119
Speaker 6: Perry was basically dancing a jig. He wants a nationwide

558
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 6: abortion ban sponsored the Life at Conception Act has sponsored

559
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 6: that for the past seven years, which would be, you know,

560
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,400
Speaker 6: a nationwide abortion band with no exceptions, not for rape,

561
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,399
Speaker 6: not for incest, not for the life or help of

562
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 6: the mother. And same thing with IVF. And he keeps

563
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 6: trying to walk this back because he's seen how deeply

564
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 6: unpopular it was after Alabama made its bands on IVF.

565
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 6: And I say, judge a man by his actions, not

566
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 6: by his work.

567
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. And also I feel like one of the things

568
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 1: that this Life and Conception Act does, besides making it

569
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 1: impossible to get abortions, is it also if this is

570
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 1: taken as it's advertised, it would be the end of

571
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 1: IVF as we know.

572
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 7: Yeah, it would be.

573
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 6: With some people try to act as a recent phenomenon.

574
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 6: You know, IVF has been around for forty years. Members

575
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 6: of my family have been conceived by IVF. This is

576
00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 6: something that you know, when you're talking to a group

577
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 6: of people, almost to any group.

578
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 1: It's the kind of thing, you know.

579
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 6: I do a lot of speak at engagements and you say,

580
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 6: who here has been touched by cancer? Almost every hand

581
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:08,720
Speaker 6: was up. I feel like it's starting to be the

582
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 6: same way with IVF. It's so popular. And again this

583
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 6: drives home the point we should not have politicians involved

584
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 6: in our healthcare decisions. Who wants Scott Perry telling you

585
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 6: when to start a family, how to start a family,

586
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 6: you know, or expand your family. It's just something that

587
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 6: should be between a woman, her doctor and whoever she

588
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 6: brings into the conversation. It's ridiculous and I think, you know, Molly,

589
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 6: and for everybody listening, if guys were the ones who

590
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 6: had the babies, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion,

591
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 6: right of course, I think it's two things. Right, it's

592
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 6: like men controlling the conversation about women's health. But I

593
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 6: also think it's that a lot of us were in

594
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:49,239
Speaker 6: denial that it would go.

595
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 1: I actually was not. I always thought after they passed

596
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,959
Speaker 1: SBA in Texas, I thought, oh, I know where this

597
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 1: is going.

598
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 7: Oh you were right, and it's not going to stop here.

599
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 6: Now we're looking at lg BTQ issues, we're looking at

600
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,479
Speaker 6: you know, there's an awful lot going on that Scott

601
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 6: Perry is all kinds of in favor of restricting, which

602
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 6: is very funny because he was head of the Freedom Caucus. Honestly,

603
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 6: it should be called the anti Freedom Caucus.

604
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 1: I think that what is interesting too is that you

605
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 1: do see this sort of belief on the right, like

606
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 1: they are supporting all of these like wildly unpopular ideas

607
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: right like contraception. Nobody in the world. It's like pornography,

608
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 1: like these are two things that Americans are just like,

609
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,160
Speaker 1: leave us alone. You know. They want the freedom to

610
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 1: read what they want to read, and they want the

611
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 1: freedom to use birth control because we live in the

612
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 1: world where there's birth control now. And these are two

613
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 1: things that the right has in their crosshairs.

614
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,720
Speaker 6: It really is. And I have to say, you know,

615
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 6: there's a cadre of people or a cabal, whatever you

616
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 6: want to call it in congre right now, the obstructionists,

617
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 6: the ones who don't do anything for the people in

618
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 6: their home districts, like Scott Perry. You know, we have

619
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 6: economic issues we should be talking about, but instead we're

620
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 6: just you know, it's like you look at these people,

621
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 6: they're causing so many problems. They're not tending to the

622
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 6: issues their districts care about. And I got to say,

623
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 6: if you look at a Marjorie Taylor Green and think, yes,

624
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 6: she's not for me, she doesn't belong in Congress, there's

625
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 6: not a lot we can do about that. She's in

626
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 6: a solidly Republican district. But I got to tell you,

627
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 6: Scott Perry is the most vulnerable maggot extremist in Congress

628
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 6: right now, and he's getting more vulnerable all the time

629
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 6: as I come after him and our support builds. So

630
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 6: this is really the place, Pennsylvania's tenth district. If you

631
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 6: want to flip the US House blue and get rid

632
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 6: of some of this nonsense, you get rid of Scott Perry,

633
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 6: and you vote me in.

634
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 1: Right. What we've seen with Marjorie Taylor Green and Lauren

635
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 1: Vauper too, is that one member of Congress, if it's

636
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 1: one like Scott Perry, who's so ideological and nutty, can

637
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 1: really cause a lot of damage in American democracy.

638
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 6: Well, you know, Mollie, my estimation of you is rising

639
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 6: by the minute because I see that you're very polite,

640
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 6: because you use the adjective when I am talking to supporters,

641
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 6: whether it's on the phones or knocking doors or just

642
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 6: people come up to me on the streets. They use

643
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 6: a lot saltier language than knife.

644
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 1: I'm curious. One of the things that causes me a

645
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 1: lot of anxiety is this idea that people are not

646
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 1: getting the real news, that they're getting this kind of

647
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 1: red sludge, that they're getting fake news through TikTok and Instagram.

648
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 1: I mean, how much of your job is sort of

649
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 1: debunking lies or do you feel that people are actually

650
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 1: getting good news through local outlets.

651
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 7: First of all, you hurt my heart when you talk

652
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 7: about media that way.

653
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: Molly up the rights. Well that's why I said, you're

654
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 1: getting good news, good local news.

655
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, I know there are a lot of other outlets.

656
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 6: In fact, recently we're hearing, you know, about interference by

657
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 6: bots sent by certain countries. And I got to say

658
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 6: another nickname, Congressman CHAOSK. Perry has is Putin's Pennsylvania puppet,

659
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 6: you know, because he's against the funding for Ukraine and

660
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 6: you know a lot of people for them. It's just

661
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 6: a foreign relations situation, which he is, by the way,

662
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 6: on that committee and wreaking habit as well. But it's

663
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 6: also an economic issue here at home. When you can't

664
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 6: get grain out of the port of Odessa in Ukraine,

665
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 6: that's going to cause a lot of problems around the

666
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 6: world in terms of food insecurity and prices. Here at home,

667
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 6: you have people who are struggling. There are a lot

668
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 6: of people who are pinched, and they tell me, you know,

669
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 6: I'm actually having to make decisions about whether I put

670
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 6: food on the table or take my life saving drugs.

671
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 6: And I got to say, here's another point against Scott Perry.

672
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 6: He's the one who voted against the government's ability to

673
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 6: negotiate prescription drug prices with pharmaceutical companies. You know, right

674
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 6: now it's only ten drugs. I'd like to see that

675
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 6: expand if I'm lucky enough to get to Washington. And

676
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 6: I'd like to see the age limits lowered as well,

677
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 6: but he voted against it. Again, this is a guy

678
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 6: who touts himself a fiscal conservative, and it was extrapolated

679
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 6: that the move is going to save taxpayers and a

680
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,240
Speaker 6: government about one hundred and twenty billion dollars in fairly

681
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 6: short order, and it will save the average person slash

682
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 6: family about one hundred and fifty dollars a month, so

683
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 6: they don't have to make those tough decisions about whether

684
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 6: to put food on the table or take their drugs.

685
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,320
Speaker 6: And you know what, here's the dot dot dot, Mollie.

686
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,800
Speaker 6: He did it while he was taking money from Big Pharma.

687
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 1: Of course, I'm not surprised. Thank you, so so so much.

688
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 1: I hope he'll come back.

689
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:32,399
Speaker 3: Molly.

690
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 1: It was an absolute pleasure.

691
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 6: Thank you for having me.

692
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:39,879
Speaker 2: So there and Elizabeth Dias are the authors of the

693
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,319
Speaker 2: Fall of Row The Rise of a New America.

694
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 1: Welcome Too Fast Politics, Lisa, Thanks for having me and Elizabeth.

695
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:52,839
Speaker 1: It's great to be here. Fantastic. The book is called

696
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,359
Speaker 1: The Fall of Row, the Rise of a New America.

697
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 1: So super interesting. We're talking about this before. Lisa. You

698
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 1: are political reporter, national political reporter. Elizabeth your beat is religion.

699
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 1: How did you find each other to tell the story.

700
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 7: Well, we both joined the Times around in twenty eighteen,

701
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 7: so we sort of joined at the same time, and

702
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:17,720
Speaker 7: we found that we liked looking at politics through different

703
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 7: but similar lenses, you know, sort of cultural politics, how

704
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 7: politics influences the country, you know, not so much the

705
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,439
Speaker 7: data and the Machia nations and the strategy but more

706
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 7: sort of how politics influences people's lives. And we were

707
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,400
Speaker 7: both had covered abortion for bits and pieces over our career,

708
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 7: and we did a few stories together on end We

709
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 7: had been watching the encroachment increasingly restrictive bands of course

710
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,799
Speaker 7: in the States during the Trump years, and then when

711
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,319
Speaker 7: it was oral arguments and Dobbs, which was the case

712
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 7: that would go on to end Row, we were on

713
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 7: the phone together and we were listening and we actually

714
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 7: both remember the moment it happened, which was I don't

715
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 7: know if you remember this in the argument but went

716
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 7: justice Barrett started talking about safe haven boxes, which are

717
00:35:59,160 --> 00:35:59,800
Speaker 7: those boxes?

718
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, and then you explain though to our listeners. Yeah.

719
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 7: So she was saying, basically, why do you need abortion

720
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 7: when you have these safe haven boxes, which your boxes

721
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 7: by fire stations where a new mother can leave the newborn,

722
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 7: you know, anonymously, and I'll be adopted. And we were

723
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 7: on the phone and one of us said to the other, Oh,

724
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 7: they're going to overturn rop This is it, and someone

725
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:24,799
Speaker 7: needs to be writing this for history. This is a

726
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 7: major major turning moment in like American politics and law

727
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,360
Speaker 7: and policy. And we're sure someone must be writing this.

728
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 7: How could someone not be writing this? It doesn't tell

729
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 7: me don't need to write this, And then nobody was

730
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 7: writing it, ed that we were writing it, And there you.

731
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 1: Go, Elizabeth Imian, How did the religion be inform your

732
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:45,280
Speaker 1: experience of this story?

733
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 8: Well, this is a topic that we really felt you

734
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 8: can't understand it unless you can really see all the

735
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 8: strands of the big picture.

736
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 1: In just looking at it through lons.

737
00:36:56,120 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 8: Of politics leaves out the massive our story of how religion,

738
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:08,840
Speaker 8: especially conservative mostly conservative Christianity, was a driving force in

739
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 8: even getting to this point. I mean, the roots of

740
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 8: the anti abortion movement are deep in the Catholic Church.

741
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 7: Evangelicals were late to that movement.

742
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:22,320
Speaker 8: And while yes, abortion is about the procedure itself and

743
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 8: the question of ken a woman and a pregnancy, the

744
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 8: meaning of abortion in American life is just so much bigger.

745
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 8: Right when people are talking about abortion, what we found

746
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 8: that really talking about is what does it mean to

747
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,360
Speaker 8: be a woman in America and what are all of

748
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 8: the values that go with that. So unless you kind

749
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,399
Speaker 8: of take a look and examine that bigger meaning, the

750
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 8: why right of why this is such a huge issue,

751
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 8: we really only get a partial story It's been a

752
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:56,920
Speaker 8: really fruitful combination because you know, it leads not only

753
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 8: to investigations in areas that have been undercovered, like the

754
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 8: a role of religion in Christianity in overturning Row, but

755
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 8: also it provides a way to understand what's going on

756
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 8: that you just really can't understand where we're going as

757
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 8: a country, the rise of been to America, as we

758
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:19,720
Speaker 8: say in the in the subtitle, without understanding these bigger

759
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:21,920
Speaker 8: cultural and religious parents.

760
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 7: Right at its core, this is a question abortion, is

761
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,280
Speaker 7: a question of where women fit into the national project

762
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,359
Speaker 7: of America. And you know, since that famous Abigail Adams quote,

763
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 7: you know where she wrote to John Ams and said,

764
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 7: remember the ladies, like, that question has been unsettled. And

765
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 7: what the ruling in that case showed us is that

766
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 7: it remains unsettled that there is a very active conservative

767
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 7: Christian minority in the country who has one view of

768
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 7: what where a woman fits and what a woman should

769
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:52,759
Speaker 7: be in America, and there's a broad majority that's more

770
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 7: secular that has a diff from view, right. And so

771
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 7: this is really about what does it mean to be

772
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 7: a woman in the amic democracy and more than that,

773
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:03,240
Speaker 7: in the American project as a whole.

774
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:06,800
Speaker 1: So what do you think, what do you think about

775
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:16,319
Speaker 1: this idea that where does fetal personhood and I like

776
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 1: to call it embryonic personhood because I'm on the opinion side,

777
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,360
Speaker 1: Where does that factor into all of this?

778
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 8: Well, that's really where the anti abortion movement is headed.

779
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 8: I mean, at its core, it's a movement that believes

780
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 8: that a human is a person deserving of rights at conception.

781
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 8: That's a certainly a minority view in America. It's quite

782
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 8: a minority view. And I think for so many years

783
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 8: because the movement was talking about Okay, we have to

784
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 8: overturn row, it's sort of obscured that an ultimate end,

785
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 8: like what an ultimate end of that would be. So

786
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 8: the fallow row was really just the beginning of this

787
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:02,319
Speaker 8: much much bigger goal. I mean, people don't talk a

788
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:05,359
Speaker 8: lot of the more main mainstream anti abortion groups try

789
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 8: are trying to not talk about quote field personhood right now,

790
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 8: especially the.

791
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 1: Relation until they get into play power, right, so and so.

792
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 8: But the but what we are seeing is because kind

793
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,319
Speaker 8: of the the the edges have been stripped away, right,

794
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 8: that that kind of veil of denial that so many

795
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 8: people had about what was going on and like wood Row,

796
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 8: the very idea that rowe could go away, that that

797
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 8: denial has been shattered. And what we're seeing too is

798
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,240
Speaker 8: the anti abortion movement has been changing so much since

799
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 8: the case, and there is an edge that has been

800
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 8: increasingly radicalized also through the Trump movement. Right, things that

801
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 8: seem possible before are now suddenly possible. So they are

802
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 8: openly trying to pursue rights for an embryo as I go.

803
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,760
Speaker 8: And you know, we're seeing this be manifested in things

804
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 8: like opposing IDF for example.

805
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 1: Is there a religious component to that? Oh yeah, where

806
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:04,400
Speaker 1: does that come from?

807
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:05,880
Speaker 7: It's really deep.

808
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 8: In one set of a Christianity's view about what it

809
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:11,880
Speaker 8: means to be a human person, right, and when this

810
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 8: sort of soul comes into the body, how does all

811
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:15,280
Speaker 8: that work.

812
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 1: It's deep in.

813
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:21,960
Speaker 8: Catholic theology that life begins that conception. So not everyone,

814
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 8: of course, who is Catholic or who is Christian.

815
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:26,640
Speaker 7: Believes that.

816
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 8: This is where you see a lot of fracturing, but

817
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 8: it's very hard. We really think it's impossible to talk

818
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 8: about what it means like where this movement is going

819
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 8: without understanding those deep roots in one certain Christian worldview.

820
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 8: So what we're seeing now even at the Supreme Court,

821
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 8: all with the Supreme Court, out of these questions of

822
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:53,799
Speaker 8: you know, what does it mean? What might it mean

823
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 8: for America to be a Christian nation? Is democracy on

824
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 8: its own? Or is America a democracy sort of set

825
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 8: within the Kingdom of God? For example? There's a fringe

826
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:08,720
Speaker 8: that is really pushing that. And so it's a major

827
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 8: conflict that extends well beyond just abortion. It's all aspects

828
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 8: and pick your reach in American life.

829
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 1: Right, what did you find when you were reporting this book? Like,

830
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 1: one of the things I'm often surprised by is how

831
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 1: I know a lot of stuff because I just read

832
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 1: all on the same topics again and again and again.

833
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:31,880
Speaker 1: What did you sort of stumble on where you're like, oh, wow.

834
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 7: Well, so I think there's a very macro answer that question,

835
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 7: and a bunch of micro ones too.

836
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 1: Sure so.

837
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,799
Speaker 7: And the biggest level, like, our book covers a ten

838
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:42,439
Speaker 7: year period which we called the Final Decade of Row.

839
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:46,239
Speaker 7: And we start with that Republican autopsy that was conducted

840
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 7: after around me lost in Obama won re election in

841
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:52,919
Speaker 7: twenty twelve, where Republicans basically said we need to dump

842
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 7: abortion as an issue. This is a loser for us,

843
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 7: and we need to find ways to win more female

844
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 7: voters and voters of color and all of that. We

845
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 7: picked that point because it's the lowest point for the

846
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:06,400
Speaker 7: anti abortion movement, and we charged their rise over the decade.

847
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:08,840
Speaker 7: And this was a story that I had covered, that

848
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 7: I had lived. I covered Romy's campaign, I covered Hillaries campaign,

849
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 7: I covered Button's campaign. You know, I went a million

850
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:17,799
Speaker 7: campaigns in between, and all the politics. But there was

851
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 7: something about putting this all together, that going back and

852
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 7: isolating the moments that were just about this issue and

853
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:26,960
Speaker 7: looking at them as a whole and re reporting them

854
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:30,280
Speaker 7: and getting these additional details that I realized how much

855
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:33,879
Speaker 7: even I, as I covered these issues, had missed, and

856
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 7: how we didn't really have a narrative, a clear narrative

857
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:40,480
Speaker 7: to explain how ro fell. So, you know, I think

858
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 7: when we think about the Republican Party and I write

859
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:45,759
Speaker 7: about the Republican Party, everyone kind of knows what happened there,

860
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 7: what happened with trump Ism and the MAGA movement and

861
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 7: with abortion. You know, there's this simplistic, you know answer,

862
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:55,359
Speaker 7: which is Trump won three Supreme Court justices and the

863
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 7: court change and abortion and Roe fell. But in fact,

864
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 7: the answer is so much bigger, and the strategy by

865
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 7: the anti abortion movement was so much longer and more

866
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 7: detailed than just that. So I think what surprised me

867
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 7: was how there was no narrative around this issue, how

868
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 7: little in a way it had been covered, and how

869
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 7: our book really creates the first narrative that explains to

870
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 7: people how the country got here and how row felt now.

871
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 7: In terms of the smaller details, another thing that we

872
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 7: really wanted to do was dive into the lives of

873
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 7: the people on both sides of this policy and this debate,

874
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 7: who you know, were most active, and really explore their

875
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:33,760
Speaker 7: own lives. So we just learned all these really interesting

876
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 7: personal details about people's families and fertility, you know, their childhoods,

877
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:40,719
Speaker 7: and those were things I really hadn't known. And the

878
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:44,399
Speaker 7: one that I particularly liked was we discovered that Mike

879
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:46,920
Speaker 7: Pence when he was married, it was a secon we

880
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 7: you know, it was a second marriage for Karen Pence's wife,

881
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 7: and so we were looking around to see like at

882
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:54,520
Speaker 7: the time, Mike Pence was Catholic, as was Karen Pens

883
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 7: and they were pretty devoutly Catholic, So we were trying

884
00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 7: to see was the first marriage innulled because you know,

885
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:02,879
Speaker 7: obviously divorced round pound in Catholicism. And we actually found

886
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 7: out that the priest who married them shortly after marrying

887
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 7: Mike and Karen Pence came out of the closet and

888
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 7: went on to lead in deep pride. Good for him,

889
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 7: I geah, Yeah, it was kind of a fun little twist.

890
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 7: So Mike and Karen Pence were married who, you know,

891
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:21,960
Speaker 7: such an opponent same sex marriage and rights, were actually

892
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 7: married by gay Price no longer a priest.

893
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 1: Good for them. Elizabeth, What about you? What did you

894
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 1: sort of learn writing this book that you were really

895
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 1: surprised by macro micro whatever.

896
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 8: Well, everything that Lisa said, I mean, I would add

897
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 8: on to it. I think understanding these deep religious influences

898
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 8: and how all of this happened, even for me, was

899
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:49,160
Speaker 8: pretty powerful. There's, you know, a way to look at this.

900
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:51,719
Speaker 8: Everything that's going on is sort of a story within

901
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:55,440
Speaker 8: a story within a story, and part of that is

902
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:59,320
Speaker 8: why America is changing so much on issues like abortion.

903
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 8: This is happening in a context of rising secularism total,

904
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:07,759
Speaker 8: you know, the de christianization of America, the struggle for that,

905
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:12,719
Speaker 8: the rising backlash within certain conservative Christian circles to that

906
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 8: and what that looks like. It's why you can see both,

907
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:18,719
Speaker 8: like you can have these competing things going on of

908
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 8: the country becoming more secular and also right wing for

909
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:28,799
Speaker 8: conservative Christianity and people trying to express their values. You

910
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 8: know that that really is make America great again for them,

911
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:35,880
Speaker 8: like bringing back so that was that's been fascinating. But

912
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 8: even beyond that, the way that this story of the

913
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 8: Fall of Row fits in for so many of the

914
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 8: people who are working to make it happen into a

915
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 8: story a religion that goes back to a young woman

916
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 8: who likely was a teenager and gave birth to a

917
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,959
Speaker 8: baby that they worship as the Son of God.

918
00:46:58,080 --> 00:46:59,279
Speaker 1: Right, these are such.

919
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:04,520
Speaker 8: Debated storylines and you just can't understand I don't think

920
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:07,319
Speaker 8: the states or what it means will mean in the

921
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 8: future to be a woman in America without understanding this

922
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:17,439
Speaker 8: bigger fight going on between one particular Christian worldview and

923
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:22,880
Speaker 8: another majority view in America that is more pluralistic and

924
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:24,320
Speaker 8: is increasingly secular.

925
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:26,400
Speaker 1: So it's just part of that.

926
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:29,920
Speaker 8: We can see in a very specific way through Leonard

927
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 8: Leo the longtime architect right at the Federalist Society, who's

928
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 8: so influential, and picking the judges who would go on

929
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:39,959
Speaker 8: to become former President Trump's Supreme Court picks for him.

930
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 8: The story of why he's so opposed to abortion personally

931
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:49,880
Speaker 8: is deeply rooted in his religious views about suffering and

932
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:53,160
Speaker 8: his own story of his daughter who hads fina bifida

933
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 8: and die and kind of.

934
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 7: How he dealt religiously with that.

935
00:47:56,480 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 8: And we found that actually the day that Row found

936
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:03,839
Speaker 8: it happened on a certain Catholic holy day, the Feast

937
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 8: of the Sacred Heart, which has extreme personal significance to

938
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 8: Leonard Leo's. He had named his daughter after the saint.

939
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 8: The holy day is devoted to It's like.

940
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:19,879
Speaker 1: The Da Vinci Code, but women suffer instead. Yes, but

941
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:22,920
Speaker 1: go on, I don't mean to boil it down in

942
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:25,800
Speaker 1: such a way, but it's just, you know, I feel

943
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 1: bad for him, but not that bad, But yes, go on,

944
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:29,280
Speaker 1: I was sorry.

945
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:32,919
Speaker 8: You get at these sort of epic questions of spiritual

946
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:37,719
Speaker 8: versus earthly forces and how power works, and it's just,

947
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:41,439
Speaker 8: I think such a much bigger story. It's very hard

948
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:44,920
Speaker 8: to confront that now, and especially what that means for

949
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:47,640
Speaker 8: you know, the stakes for women, right, that's just very

950
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:51,160
Speaker 8: different ideas about the role of women in society and

951
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:54,640
Speaker 8: family when it comes to sex, marriage, kids, all of it.

952
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:57,359
Speaker 8: You have to kind of spend time exploring that and

953
00:48:57,400 --> 00:48:58,640
Speaker 8: seeing what the steaks are.

954
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, no, it's so interesting and I didn't mean

955
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 1: to make light of it, but I can't help myself

956
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 1: because I grew up in a very non religious Hashold.

957
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:09,240
Speaker 1: One of the things we talked about when we talked

958
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:13,320
Speaker 1: together on Morning Joe was that the left really never

959
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:16,160
Speaker 1: saw this coming. I've talked to other people who've said

960
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:19,440
Speaker 1: this very same thing, which was that so much was

961
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:23,160
Speaker 1: riding on the election of Hillary Clinton, that Planned Parenthood

962
00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:25,880
Speaker 1: and a lot of organizations, that there was such a

963
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:29,759
Speaker 1: mass sort of belief that she would be the president

964
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:33,399
Speaker 1: that certain things maybe didn't get the attention they could have.

965
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 7: Look, I think that's right. I think there was a sense.

966
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 7: You have to remember where the country was in twenty twelve,

967
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:43,400
Speaker 7: twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen, the run ups at Clinton's run,

968
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:46,719
Speaker 7: which was you know, it seemed like abortion was this

969
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:49,920
Speaker 7: old fight. It was decided like conservative states at that

970
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 7: time were passing more restrictive laws, But it just didn't

971
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 7: capture the imagination. It wasn't the thing that was driving

972
00:49:56,719 --> 00:49:59,319
Speaker 7: like liberal activists. It felt like this thing from like

973
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:02,400
Speaker 7: the boomer moms or grandma's or whatever. It was a

974
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:05,839
Speaker 7: settled issue. Hillary Clinton was widely expected to win and

975
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 7: she was going to expand abortion rights in all of this,

976
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:10,839
Speaker 7: and then of course she lost. And I think part

977
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:13,879
Speaker 7: of what the left was unprepared for is they thought

978
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:16,360
Speaker 7: about this issue in terms of the election cycles and

979
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 7: in terms of winning public opinion. If we destigmatize the proposal,

980
00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:22,080
Speaker 7: we get it in as a plot line in movies

981
00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 7: like Juno or Gray's Anatomy. If we elect people who

982
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:28,840
Speaker 7: will protect abortion rights, it'll be fine. They'll be forced

983
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 7: to roll back these restrictive laws. As Elizabeth was outlining,

984
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:36,480
Speaker 7: the anti abortion movement is thinking in generations, right, and

985
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:39,960
Speaker 7: they're not thinking about public opinion because they are engaged

986
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:43,719
Speaker 7: in this battle for these like spiritual ideas. So you

987
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:46,279
Speaker 7: believe that you were engaged in a world battle. It

988
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:49,359
Speaker 7: doesn't matter if everyone disagrees with you. So what they

989
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:52,839
Speaker 7: were doing was moving the levers of power everywhere. They

990
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:56,000
Speaker 7: could state legislatures, judicial you know, judge ships, all the

991
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:58,200
Speaker 7: way up to the Supreme Court. So you reach a

992
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:00,919
Speaker 7: point where the left is unable to stop this from

993
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:05,239
Speaker 7: happening because the anti abortion movement controls the system, and

994
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:07,800
Speaker 7: that's the point at which Trump has those three Supreme

995
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:10,480
Speaker 7: Court justices, and by then it's too late. So I

996
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:13,640
Speaker 7: just think like the anti abortion forces were playing chess

997
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:16,680
Speaker 7: and the abortion rights side was playing checkers, and the

998
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:18,880
Speaker 7: skull of how they were looking at this was just

999
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:21,640
Speaker 7: so different. It was asymmetrical in a way, right.

1000
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:24,319
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's a really important point that

1001
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:27,760
Speaker 1: they had this grand plan that the left just didn't

1002
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:29,560
Speaker 1: see coming in a certain way.

1003
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 7: And I think, like you were mentioning, you know, you

1004
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:34,640
Speaker 7: grew up in a really secular home, Like I think

1005
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:37,640
Speaker 7: it can be hard to understand, like you really have

1006
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:39,760
Speaker 7: to understand the roots of this thing in the anti

1007
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:42,719
Speaker 7: abortion movement. And you know, it's been interesting to see

1008
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:45,520
Speaker 7: all this news with the LEO and the recordings and

1009
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:48,319
Speaker 7: the flags, and you know, it didn't go unnoticed by

1010
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:50,960
Speaker 7: Elizabeth and I that the flag his wife wanted to

1011
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:53,360
Speaker 7: raise to push back on the Pride flag was the

1012
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:56,160
Speaker 7: flag of the Sacred Heart right, which is that Catholic symbol.

1013
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:58,759
Speaker 7: We were talking about so this is a thing that's

1014
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:01,719
Speaker 7: very deep for them can be hard, I think for

1015
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:05,320
Speaker 7: people who are raised more secularly to wrap their heads

1016
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 7: around what that all means. I think it actually helped

1017
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:11,200
Speaker 7: us that we were raised in more observant homes, and

1018
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:13,719
Speaker 7: so I think that helped us kind of understand a

1019
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:16,440
Speaker 7: little bit more and take a wider purview than I

1020
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:19,000
Speaker 7: think sometimes people do to this issue, which is necessary.

1021
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:20,840
Speaker 1: Thank you both so much.

1022
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:23,799
Speaker 7: Thank you, ma, thank you for having us.

1023
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 1: No moment fuck so Rick Wilson, Yes, ma'am, do you

1024
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:32,080
Speaker 1: have a moment of fuckery?

1025
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:34,480
Speaker 4: I do have a moment of fuckery. My moment of

1026
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 4: thuckery is yesterday's ritual humiliation session on Capitol Hill where

1027
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:42,360
Speaker 4: Mitch fuck and McConnell, who I have told you guys

1028
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:48,320
Speaker 4: a million times loathes and despises Donald Trump with every

1029
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:51,719
Speaker 4: fiber of his grotesque little being, went out there and

1030
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:54,960
Speaker 4: once again, once again when he has a chance to

1031
00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:58,520
Speaker 4: break the evil of Trump, and the MAGA movement went

1032
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:01,800
Speaker 4: out there. Oh well, support the Norman I'm a party

1033
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:07,399
Speaker 4: because olverys. If we don't communist Trams, lesbian celebrity abortionist

1034
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:08,040
Speaker 4: will wound.

1035
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:09,240
Speaker 3: I mean God, all.

1036
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:13,439
Speaker 4: Fucking mighty, the guy can't stop himself. And I'm sorry, Mitch,

1037
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:17,880
Speaker 4: you're eighty two years old. Go retire, be done. Try

1038
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:21,279
Speaker 4: not to make yourself a guy who will end up

1039
00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:24,080
Speaker 4: with a grave that reeks of piss for all eternity

1040
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 4: by supporting this fucking guy.

1041
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:31,400
Speaker 1: Oh yes, I understand the craven desire for power. I

1042
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:35,000
Speaker 1: respect the hell out of it. But the photos out

1043
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:40,239
Speaker 1: of that meeting yesterday were so cringe well, they just

1044
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:46,120
Speaker 1: were so embarrassing, and like, you have this opportunity, even

1045
00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:48,960
Speaker 1: if the guy did win, you could have salvage the

1046
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:51,920
Speaker 1: tiny bit of your dignity by not There were photos

1047
00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:55,359
Speaker 1: of them actually, and they weren't bowing on purpose. They

1048
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:57,440
Speaker 1: were just sort of like, you know, it just looked

1049
00:53:57,480 --> 00:54:00,319
Speaker 1: like they were bowing right, but it looked like, you know,

1050
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:02,719
Speaker 1: painting is from the Renaissance.

1051
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:04,000
Speaker 3: Accidental Renaissance.

1052
00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:05,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, accidental.

1053
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 3: That was awful, awful, awful, awful.

1054
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 1: So the accidental Renaissance is our moment of fuck Gray.

1055
00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:17,440
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

1056
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:20,720
Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday to hear the best minds

1057
00:54:20,719 --> 00:54:23,960
Speaker 1: in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you

1058
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:26,760
Speaker 1: enjoyed what you've heard, Please send it to a friend

1059
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:30,360
Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. And again thanks for listening.