1 00:00:09,664 --> 00:00:13,104 Speaker 1: Mission Implausible is now something you can watch. Just go 2 00:00:13,144 --> 00:00:16,823 Speaker 1: to YouTube and search Mission Implausible podcasts or click on 3 00:00:16,864 --> 00:00:21,344 Speaker 1: the link to our channel. In our show notes, I'm John. 4 00:00:21,184 --> 00:00:22,823 Speaker 2: Cipher and I'm Jerry O'Shea. 5 00:00:23,304 --> 00:00:26,584 Speaker 3: We have over sixty years of experience as clandestine officers 6 00:00:26,664 --> 00:00:29,544 Speaker 3: in the CIA, serving in high risk areas all around 7 00:00:29,584 --> 00:00:30,824 Speaker 3: the world, and part. 8 00:00:30,624 --> 00:00:34,504 Speaker 4: Of our job was creating conspiracies to deceive our adversaries. 9 00:00:34,784 --> 00:00:37,504 Speaker 3: Now we're going to use that experience to investigate the 10 00:00:37,543 --> 00:00:40,543 Speaker 3: conspiracy theories everyone's talking about, as well as some you 11 00:00:40,623 --> 00:00:41,264 Speaker 3: may not have heard. 12 00:00:41,344 --> 00:00:43,624 Speaker 1: Could they be true or are we being manipulated? 13 00:00:43,703 --> 00:00:50,543 Speaker 3: We'll find out now on Mission Implausible. So today we're 14 00:00:50,543 --> 00:00:54,624 Speaker 3: diving into the world where crystals, q andon posts, yoga influencers, 15 00:00:54,624 --> 00:00:57,624 Speaker 3: and research rabbit holes all collide, and how those worlds 16 00:00:57,624 --> 00:01:00,864 Speaker 3: are reshaping real people's lives. Our guest is author and 17 00:01:00,864 --> 00:01:05,664 Speaker 3: storyteller Noel Cook, whose work focuses on conspiracy theories, extremism 18 00:01:05,703 --> 00:01:08,224 Speaker 3: and disinformation, and well as the author of the forthcoming 19 00:01:08,224 --> 00:01:12,104 Speaker 3: book The Conspiracists, Women, Extremism, and the Lure of Belonging. 20 00:01:12,464 --> 00:01:15,664 Speaker 3: She's also a key voice in the future documentary The Conspiracist, 21 00:01:16,104 --> 00:01:19,224 Speaker 3: which follows her years of immersive field work with women 22 00:01:19,304 --> 00:01:22,984 Speaker 3: involved in the January sixth capital attack. So Noel, welcome 23 00:01:22,984 --> 00:01:23,703 Speaker 3: to the podcast. 24 00:01:23,904 --> 00:01:24,783 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. 25 00:01:25,063 --> 00:01:28,344 Speaker 3: So your book focuses on women who were involved in 26 00:01:28,384 --> 00:01:32,024 Speaker 3: the January sixth attack. Why did you decide to focus 27 00:01:32,063 --> 00:01:35,663 Speaker 3: on women? And when so much coverage of extremism tends 28 00:01:35,664 --> 00:01:37,943 Speaker 3: to focus on men? And if you could just describe 29 00:01:37,944 --> 00:01:39,383 Speaker 3: the book in a sense or two, they'd be great. 30 00:01:39,624 --> 00:01:41,863 Speaker 2: I chose to focus on January sixth because I ended 31 00:01:41,944 --> 00:01:46,584 Speaker 2: up being at January six as a photographer who wasn't 32 00:01:46,624 --> 00:01:48,544 Speaker 2: meant to be. I was expecting to go and take 33 00:01:48,624 --> 00:01:52,184 Speaker 2: photos of a protest. There was no in person research 34 00:01:52,264 --> 00:01:55,224 Speaker 2: during twenty twenty, and I was just starting a graduate 35 00:01:55,264 --> 00:01:57,704 Speaker 2: program and I needed a thesis project, so I went 36 00:01:57,744 --> 00:01:59,864 Speaker 2: down to take photos of the Stop of Steel rally 37 00:02:00,104 --> 00:02:01,784 Speaker 2: to see if I could maybe do some sort of 38 00:02:01,904 --> 00:02:05,104 Speaker 2: visual anthropologic project around that, and got a little more 39 00:02:05,104 --> 00:02:07,184 Speaker 2: than I expected to. And it really wasn't until I 40 00:02:07,224 --> 00:02:09,384 Speaker 2: got home that I understood when it happened, because there 41 00:02:09,424 --> 00:02:12,104 Speaker 2: was on cell service in DC that day, and I 42 00:02:12,184 --> 00:02:13,784 Speaker 2: kind of just sat and stare at my pictures for 43 00:02:13,784 --> 00:02:16,144 Speaker 2: a couple of weeks, trying to make sense what I 44 00:02:16,184 --> 00:02:19,184 Speaker 2: was seeing, how I had been in proximity to something 45 00:02:19,264 --> 00:02:21,984 Speaker 2: like this and really had no idea what exactly was 46 00:02:21,984 --> 00:02:25,344 Speaker 2: happening except for the rhetoric I heard around me, and 47 00:02:25,424 --> 00:02:28,024 Speaker 2: so many women in the photos of people just sitting 48 00:02:28,024 --> 00:02:29,864 Speaker 2: on the steps, there were so many women that looked 49 00:02:29,904 --> 00:02:31,704 Speaker 2: just like me and looked like I could be sitting 50 00:02:31,704 --> 00:02:34,224 Speaker 2: next to them at a PTA meeting or a church 51 00:02:34,344 --> 00:02:37,144 Speaker 2: or whatever, right, And so I thought that was interesting 52 00:02:37,304 --> 00:02:41,224 Speaker 2: that so many gen X young boomer women were in 53 00:02:41,264 --> 00:02:45,584 Speaker 2: an environment. Now, the women my photos weren't committing violence. 54 00:02:45,624 --> 00:02:48,024 Speaker 2: They were on the outside of the building, on the steps. 55 00:02:48,224 --> 00:02:50,304 Speaker 2: And in retrospect after I had a couple of weeks 56 00:02:50,344 --> 00:02:52,304 Speaker 2: in passed trying to figure out what in the world 57 00:02:52,344 --> 00:02:55,744 Speaker 2: possessed people to take that sort of personal risk number 58 00:02:55,784 --> 00:02:59,824 Speaker 2: one of being arrested, and what made them believe these 59 00:02:59,864 --> 00:03:02,664 Speaker 2: ideas to the extent that they were willing to commit 60 00:03:02,864 --> 00:03:05,904 Speaker 2: in some cases political violence. So I basically looked at 61 00:03:05,904 --> 00:03:09,784 Speaker 2: the FBI statement of facts, the affidavits that were put 62 00:03:09,824 --> 00:03:13,824 Speaker 2: in with the complaints, and then I looked through social media, newspapers, 63 00:03:13,904 --> 00:03:15,944 Speaker 2: old newspapers. I tried to find out as much about 64 00:03:15,984 --> 00:03:17,784 Speaker 2: these women as I could, and kind of get an 65 00:03:17,824 --> 00:03:20,264 Speaker 2: idea of what their lives looked like, which was interesting 66 00:03:20,584 --> 00:03:22,424 Speaker 2: because it kind of ran the gamut. You know, we 67 00:03:22,464 --> 00:03:24,744 Speaker 2: all have maybe a certain idea in our head of 68 00:03:24,824 --> 00:03:28,104 Speaker 2: what somebody from a particular political party or movement looks like. 69 00:03:28,464 --> 00:03:31,904 Speaker 2: But I was finding everything from Ivy league educated people 70 00:03:32,024 --> 00:03:36,184 Speaker 2: to very successful small business owners to people in what 71 00:03:36,224 --> 00:03:41,624 Speaker 2: we would call American carnage situations. I was looking for patterns, affiliations, 72 00:03:41,824 --> 00:03:44,424 Speaker 2: belief systems, and I did. I spent about a year 73 00:03:44,464 --> 00:03:48,344 Speaker 2: doing this, and the only pattern I could find was generational, which, 74 00:03:48,384 --> 00:03:49,984 Speaker 2: for the first time of my whole life, being a 75 00:03:49,984 --> 00:03:52,584 Speaker 2: middle aged woman worked out for me because they were 76 00:03:52,584 --> 00:03:55,664 Speaker 2: all my age. And so that was also fascinating to 77 00:03:56,064 --> 00:03:59,584 Speaker 2: look at some of the entry points for their conspiratorial 78 00:03:59,584 --> 00:04:02,944 Speaker 2: beliefs and to see how the pandemic played a huge 79 00:04:03,264 --> 00:04:07,544 Speaker 2: role in that, particularly in gendered spaces. And one of 80 00:04:07,544 --> 00:04:10,904 Speaker 2: you mentioned earlier that most of the research has been 81 00:04:10,904 --> 00:04:13,264 Speaker 2: done through a masculine lens and looked at how men 82 00:04:13,344 --> 00:04:17,904 Speaker 2: interact and engage with conspiracies. Now, women in different white 83 00:04:17,944 --> 00:04:22,063 Speaker 2: supremacy movements or nationalist movements have always been prominent front 84 00:04:22,104 --> 00:04:25,743 Speaker 2: center organizers. It's historically they've always had that kind of role, 85 00:04:26,144 --> 00:04:29,103 Speaker 2: which I think is where the pandemic really was key 86 00:04:29,743 --> 00:04:33,984 Speaker 2: in just the explosion into the mainstream of what not 87 00:04:34,104 --> 00:04:38,544 Speaker 2: too long ago were incredibly fringe ideas or just fantastical 88 00:04:38,623 --> 00:04:43,024 Speaker 2: absurd ideas. Because of COVID and the pandemic, we're looking 89 00:04:43,063 --> 00:04:46,424 Speaker 2: at people who are looking for alternate remedies for help. 90 00:04:46,623 --> 00:04:48,384 Speaker 2: Nobody knows how to cure this thing, how can we 91 00:04:48,383 --> 00:04:51,664 Speaker 2: boost our immune systems? And so what ordinary women bound 92 00:04:51,943 --> 00:04:54,664 Speaker 2: in my experience, is they found on a lot of 93 00:04:54,704 --> 00:04:57,383 Speaker 2: people who already had an online presence, who would already 94 00:04:57,424 --> 00:05:00,623 Speaker 2: have figured out how to turn whatever was going on 95 00:05:00,623 --> 00:05:04,224 Speaker 2: in the world that day into some sort of capitalist 96 00:05:04,344 --> 00:05:07,344 Speaker 2: venture for themselves. And so you have all of these 97 00:05:07,383 --> 00:05:11,064 Speaker 2: wellness people, all wellness community you've already been set up forever, 98 00:05:11,623 --> 00:05:13,743 Speaker 2: ready to go now, and you start seeing them doing 99 00:05:13,784 --> 00:05:18,383 Speaker 2: signaling to conspiracists for the first time. They might have 100 00:05:18,383 --> 00:05:20,984 Speaker 2: a health shop up on Instagram that you're selling all 101 00:05:21,024 --> 00:05:25,704 Speaker 2: of these remedies and potions for various ailments, And for 102 00:05:25,743 --> 00:05:28,464 Speaker 2: the first time I'm seeing in like twenty eighteen and nineteen, 103 00:05:28,904 --> 00:05:31,784 Speaker 2: the lights signaling towards QAnon. Some of the slogans they 104 00:05:31,863 --> 00:05:34,584 Speaker 2: might use that like if you know, you know, acronym 105 00:05:34,904 --> 00:05:37,784 Speaker 2: or something like that, where it's a signal. But by 106 00:05:37,823 --> 00:05:40,184 Speaker 2: twenty twenty, they're getting really avert now where we go on, 107 00:05:40,424 --> 00:05:44,664 Speaker 2: we go all and you can to watch how ordinary 108 00:05:44,664 --> 00:05:47,623 Speaker 2: people are looking for answers to try to make sense 109 00:05:47,704 --> 00:05:51,184 Speaker 2: of the chaos. People with authority, power or positions that 110 00:05:51,224 --> 00:05:53,623 Speaker 2: are already set up to sell you something, we're ready 111 00:05:53,623 --> 00:05:56,544 Speaker 2: to pull you in as soon as you came looking. 112 00:05:56,984 --> 00:05:59,144 Speaker 4: Now, well, you know, taking a look at this, it 113 00:05:59,224 --> 00:06:02,383 Speaker 4: was like thirteen percent of the people who were arrested 114 00:06:02,704 --> 00:06:05,303 Speaker 4: on January sixth, the sixteen hundred were women, and yet 115 00:06:05,383 --> 00:06:08,904 Speaker 4: the only person killed on the insurrectionist side was a woman. 116 00:06:08,943 --> 00:06:11,544 Speaker 4: Of course, Ish Babbitt, and I was wondering, could you 117 00:06:11,584 --> 00:06:14,224 Speaker 4: take us through some of Ashley Babbitt's backron. I think 118 00:06:14,264 --> 00:06:16,743 Speaker 4: it's interesting that some of the things you said famously, 119 00:06:16,784 --> 00:06:22,064 Speaker 4: she apparently was an Obama voter early on, she served 120 00:06:22,063 --> 00:06:25,623 Speaker 4: in the military. Ironically, one of her jobs in the 121 00:06:25,623 --> 00:06:30,344 Speaker 4: military was in d C to actually protect the Capitol 122 00:06:30,464 --> 00:06:33,583 Speaker 4: and federal buildings from social unrest. 123 00:06:33,664 --> 00:06:36,463 Speaker 2: Right, I believe she did have some conspirats for her 124 00:06:36,544 --> 00:06:40,583 Speaker 2: beliefs leading up to her arrival on January sixth. From 125 00:06:40,584 --> 00:06:43,424 Speaker 2: what I can tell is that the tough one because. 126 00:06:43,183 --> 00:06:45,743 Speaker 4: Apparently she was very involved with Michael Flynn and Qwan 127 00:06:45,943 --> 00:06:46,944 Speaker 4: right towards the end. 128 00:06:47,024 --> 00:06:48,863 Speaker 2: Right one of the one women in my book and 129 00:06:48,943 --> 00:06:51,344 Speaker 2: film It's is a former marine who joined the Marine 130 00:06:51,344 --> 00:06:54,984 Speaker 2: in the late eighties. You know, they understand orders, they 131 00:06:55,104 --> 00:06:59,384 Speaker 2: understand what tear goth means, they understand that there's they 132 00:06:59,424 --> 00:07:01,503 Speaker 2: don't need to be crawling through broken windows. So that 133 00:07:01,544 --> 00:07:04,784 Speaker 2: was always surprising to me because you know, the woman 134 00:07:04,823 --> 00:07:07,343 Speaker 2: in my book, Vaughn, she had been in the tunnel 135 00:07:07,503 --> 00:07:10,104 Speaker 2: and that had been prodded out when they were pushing 136 00:07:10,104 --> 00:07:13,704 Speaker 2: people out of the tunnel, and instead of leaving the grounds, 137 00:07:13,824 --> 00:07:16,264 Speaker 2: she found a broken window and crawled backed in because 138 00:07:16,264 --> 00:07:18,504 Speaker 2: she wanted to charge her phone. So I don't know 139 00:07:18,504 --> 00:07:20,864 Speaker 2: what was going through Astley bab It's mine when she 140 00:07:21,104 --> 00:07:25,584 Speaker 2: was ready to that window, because intellectually, if she had 141 00:07:25,584 --> 00:07:28,224 Speaker 2: been thinking about it, she would have understood what the 142 00:07:28,224 --> 00:07:31,584 Speaker 2: consequences could be. And so that really shows you how 143 00:07:31,664 --> 00:07:35,384 Speaker 2: true believer, how invested in the belief systems people can be, 144 00:07:35,784 --> 00:07:37,944 Speaker 2: and how it has much less to do with cognition 145 00:07:38,384 --> 00:07:40,304 Speaker 2: and how it has to do with feeling and I 146 00:07:40,344 --> 00:07:43,903 Speaker 2: think that has been what I've seen with conspiracies with 147 00:07:43,984 --> 00:07:46,343 Speaker 2: a lot of these women, and how easily they've grasped 148 00:07:46,464 --> 00:07:50,104 Speaker 2: onto them, because the conspiracies can serve as a coping mechanism. 149 00:07:50,224 --> 00:07:54,343 Speaker 2: It can serve as explanations for the unexplainable, for chaos, 150 00:07:54,384 --> 00:07:58,824 Speaker 2: making sense of chaos, making you feel less powerless, secret knowledge, 151 00:07:58,944 --> 00:08:01,304 Speaker 2: you know, you know something your friends don't and they're 152 00:08:01,304 --> 00:08:04,344 Speaker 2: calling you crazy today, but what about tomorrow? And then 153 00:08:04,504 --> 00:08:07,304 Speaker 2: the more these beliefs take hold, the more they become 154 00:08:07,344 --> 00:08:10,264 Speaker 2: an everyday way of life, the more isolated people become 155 00:08:10,304 --> 00:08:13,384 Speaker 2: from the real world connections because they're starting to say 156 00:08:13,384 --> 00:08:17,704 Speaker 2: some very fringe ideas, and so they become even pushed 157 00:08:17,744 --> 00:08:21,904 Speaker 2: even more into their online communities as their primary social network, 158 00:08:22,144 --> 00:08:23,944 Speaker 2: which we've also seen since the pandemic. 159 00:08:24,304 --> 00:08:26,704 Speaker 3: It's not just a belief right you talk about in 160 00:08:26,744 --> 00:08:28,944 Speaker 3: your book that it's the sort of lure of belonging. 161 00:08:29,024 --> 00:08:31,384 Speaker 3: And since we're not with each other so much, we're 162 00:08:31,624 --> 00:08:35,944 Speaker 3: trying to recreate communities. And so what is it that 163 00:08:35,984 --> 00:08:39,264 Speaker 3: these women have found in these conspirator conspiratorial communities they 164 00:08:39,264 --> 00:08:42,624 Speaker 3: found so compelling? And how did you build empathy with them? 165 00:08:42,864 --> 00:08:43,784 Speaker 3: As you talk to them. 166 00:08:44,064 --> 00:08:45,984 Speaker 2: I think one of the things they found that they 167 00:08:45,984 --> 00:08:48,864 Speaker 2: found compelling, or people in their online groups weren't telling 168 00:08:48,904 --> 00:08:51,264 Speaker 2: them they were crazy. They weren't saying I'm not going 169 00:08:51,304 --> 00:08:55,384 Speaker 2: to let you around your grandchildren because your belief systems 170 00:08:55,424 --> 00:08:58,703 Speaker 2: are two out there. They weren't being judged. They they 171 00:08:58,744 --> 00:09:01,504 Speaker 2: found their people, you know, they there's an acceptance. And 172 00:09:01,583 --> 00:09:05,184 Speaker 2: it was interesting because I didn't set out to study conspiracies. 173 00:09:05,264 --> 00:09:07,424 Speaker 2: By the way I was looking at these women, I 174 00:09:07,624 --> 00:09:10,824 Speaker 2: started out looking at the gender pathwaysation right, because I 175 00:09:11,144 --> 00:09:13,703 Speaker 2: know how the oathkeepers entered. I know how proud boys 176 00:09:13,784 --> 00:09:16,464 Speaker 2: have entered, But how are these you know, soccer momls, 177 00:09:16,463 --> 00:09:18,623 Speaker 2: how are they entering? How are they getting here? And 178 00:09:18,664 --> 00:09:20,463 Speaker 2: what was weird about it is I could be in 179 00:09:20,664 --> 00:09:24,703 Speaker 2: like a MAGA group online just watching and reading the comments, 180 00:09:24,904 --> 00:09:31,264 Speaker 2: and I'd see everything from very evangelical Christians to white nationalists, 181 00:09:31,424 --> 00:09:35,024 Speaker 2: white supremacists, Christian nationalists, and then I see these New 182 00:09:35,103 --> 00:09:37,784 Speaker 2: Age beliefs popping in. They just didn't seem like they 183 00:09:37,824 --> 00:09:40,703 Speaker 2: went together, and it was weird to see this acceptance 184 00:09:40,744 --> 00:09:43,904 Speaker 2: in this pool of everyone had their own lane, but 185 00:09:43,944 --> 00:09:46,784 Speaker 2: they were all comfortable adjacent to each other, and that 186 00:09:47,103 --> 00:09:50,064 Speaker 2: was the way. It was also in real world events 187 00:09:50,223 --> 00:09:52,504 Speaker 2: too that I went to, whether it was the truck convoy, 188 00:09:52,864 --> 00:09:56,104 Speaker 2: I went to a border convoy rally, I went to 189 00:09:56,103 --> 00:09:58,623 Speaker 2: the Conscious Life Expo in Los Angeles, and you can 190 00:09:58,703 --> 00:10:01,184 Speaker 2: just see this blend. Part of it was the anti 191 00:10:01,264 --> 00:10:05,703 Speaker 2: VAXX group was able to come in during COVID alongside 192 00:10:05,703 --> 00:10:11,024 Speaker 2: the anti government conspiracists, alongside the QAnon conspiracists, and it 193 00:10:11,144 --> 00:10:14,863 Speaker 2: all just became a path that bubbled over into the mainstream, 194 00:10:14,944 --> 00:10:17,424 Speaker 2: so that today we have some of those berries and 195 00:10:17,504 --> 00:10:19,704 Speaker 2: conspiracists heading up our government. 196 00:10:20,264 --> 00:10:22,944 Speaker 4: So the demographic you looked at of the women involved 197 00:10:22,984 --> 00:10:25,944 Speaker 4: in January sixth, to what extent would you say they 198 00:10:25,944 --> 00:10:31,304 Speaker 4: were basically conspiracy theorists QAnon COVID who sort of became 199 00:10:31,424 --> 00:10:36,024 Speaker 4: involved in this political act of storming the Congress Or 200 00:10:36,064 --> 00:10:39,064 Speaker 4: were they sort of like Trump supporters, mega people who 201 00:10:39,223 --> 00:10:41,664 Speaker 4: just also happened to have conspiracy theories. 202 00:10:41,784 --> 00:10:43,784 Speaker 2: I spoke to a lot of different women over the 203 00:10:43,824 --> 00:10:46,463 Speaker 2: course of the last five years, and the two I 204 00:10:46,583 --> 00:10:48,784 Speaker 2: focused on at the end of the day were because 205 00:10:48,784 --> 00:10:52,544 Speaker 2: they were sincere their beliefs and our realities may be 206 00:10:52,703 --> 00:10:55,824 Speaker 2: completely opposing to each other, and we don't share the 207 00:10:55,824 --> 00:10:58,863 Speaker 2: same reality, but they are sincere in their beliefs and 208 00:10:59,703 --> 00:11:01,944 Speaker 2: I didn't have to guess if they were drifting off 209 00:11:01,984 --> 00:11:04,944 Speaker 2: of something, if they were doing it for attention, I 210 00:11:04,944 --> 00:11:07,424 Speaker 2: could learn from them, and I did. There were a 211 00:11:07,424 --> 00:11:09,504 Speaker 2: lot of people I talked to that you could tell 212 00:11:09,544 --> 00:11:14,024 Speaker 2: I saw January sixth as their entree into becoming the 213 00:11:14,024 --> 00:11:16,264 Speaker 2: digital content creator, which is kind of where gen X 214 00:11:16,304 --> 00:11:18,703 Speaker 2: goes to die these days as they age out of 215 00:11:18,784 --> 00:11:21,224 Speaker 2: you know, I always tell people look at people's motivation 216 00:11:21,544 --> 00:11:23,784 Speaker 2: when you're reading things online, and if this is how 217 00:11:23,824 --> 00:11:25,983 Speaker 2: they make their living, then you need to look twice 218 00:11:26,144 --> 00:11:29,304 Speaker 2: because there's an investment in keeping you worried and scared 219 00:11:29,463 --> 00:11:32,703 Speaker 2: and enraged and all of that. And that's a problem 220 00:11:32,703 --> 00:11:34,944 Speaker 2: with the internet, right, That's part of the problem with 221 00:11:34,944 --> 00:11:37,544 Speaker 2: social media. But as far as these women go, I 222 00:11:38,223 --> 00:11:41,184 Speaker 2: started following them on social media, and I just expected 223 00:11:41,184 --> 00:11:43,263 Speaker 2: to mostly just be in MAGA type groups. But I 224 00:11:43,384 --> 00:11:46,184 Speaker 2: was very quickly by almost all of them led into 225 00:11:46,264 --> 00:11:50,424 Speaker 2: the world of conspiratuality, the mash of New Age spirituality 226 00:11:50,504 --> 00:11:53,784 Speaker 2: and conspiracies together, and so that was how I ended 227 00:11:53,864 --> 00:11:56,104 Speaker 2: up going down that rabbit hole. And then I had 228 00:11:56,144 --> 00:11:58,264 Speaker 2: to go down rabbit holes every single day, because every 229 00:11:58,264 --> 00:12:00,264 Speaker 2: mean they'd posted, I had to go figure out what 230 00:12:00,264 --> 00:12:02,424 Speaker 2: it meant. And then you start to see how some 231 00:12:02,463 --> 00:12:05,463 Speaker 2: of these things look some of these other elements that 232 00:12:05,504 --> 00:12:08,463 Speaker 2: go into the same pool that might not necessarily identify 233 00:12:08,504 --> 00:12:12,463 Speaker 2: as MAGA or even conspiracists. Necessarily, it might be something 234 00:12:12,504 --> 00:12:15,744 Speaker 2: more traditionalist and maybe like a traad white thing kind 235 00:12:15,744 --> 00:12:18,264 Speaker 2: of gone back to that too. It's all same pool 236 00:12:18,463 --> 00:12:21,184 Speaker 2: again as far as the online ecosystems and the way 237 00:12:21,184 --> 00:12:24,224 Speaker 2: they engage, and they all work through hashtags, and so 238 00:12:24,343 --> 00:12:27,184 Speaker 2: you can be looking at someone who's selling made remedies 239 00:12:27,184 --> 00:12:30,304 Speaker 2: again from their homestead, but if you look at their hashtags, 240 00:12:30,544 --> 00:12:32,344 Speaker 2: they might have all the things you'd expect to see 241 00:12:32,384 --> 00:12:35,304 Speaker 2: about health. That looked a little closer, you might see 242 00:12:35,384 --> 00:12:38,064 Speaker 2: Escaped the Modern World as a hashtag. And if you 243 00:12:38,064 --> 00:12:40,264 Speaker 2: see that enough times and you google it, you see 244 00:12:40,304 --> 00:12:42,983 Speaker 2: that it's a Julius Evola book from the thirties, you know, 245 00:12:43,223 --> 00:12:45,224 Speaker 2: a guy who some people said it was more fascist 246 00:12:45,223 --> 00:12:48,263 Speaker 2: than Mussolini. So you suedd to see how these ideologies 247 00:12:48,384 --> 00:12:51,463 Speaker 2: because many of these women didn't have ideologies like this. 248 00:12:51,864 --> 00:12:53,944 Speaker 2: Most of these women that I talked to didn't even 249 00:12:54,024 --> 00:12:56,624 Speaker 2: vote most of the time, and sometimes in some cases 250 00:12:56,703 --> 00:12:58,904 Speaker 2: voted for Obama. But in Von went on a weight 251 00:12:58,944 --> 00:13:02,024 Speaker 2: loss journey back in my twenty nineteen and in her 252 00:13:02,064 --> 00:13:06,144 Speaker 2: chiropractor's office, and then there's a relationship with chiropractors here too, 253 00:13:06,184 --> 00:13:09,223 Speaker 2: that's interesting. But in the chiropractor's office she saw some 254 00:13:09,304 --> 00:13:12,544 Speaker 2: kind kind of video caught that up. I think it 255 00:13:12,664 --> 00:13:16,064 Speaker 2: was something about how the government had withheld the findings 256 00:13:16,103 --> 00:13:19,664 Speaker 2: from what processed sugar does to human body and the 257 00:13:19,703 --> 00:13:22,103 Speaker 2: government lied to us. What else they lying to us about? 258 00:13:22,144 --> 00:13:26,024 Speaker 2: And now when you're online, every meme is encouraging you 259 00:13:26,103 --> 00:13:28,544 Speaker 2: to go do your own research because their government's corrupt, 260 00:13:28,544 --> 00:13:30,384 Speaker 2: and they're the deep statements of can Ball and they're 261 00:13:30,424 --> 00:13:33,424 Speaker 2: coming for your kids. And now there's this vaccine coming 262 00:13:33,424 --> 00:13:35,983 Speaker 2: out that they're going to force you to get this jab. 263 00:13:36,343 --> 00:13:40,544 Speaker 2: It just was the perfect storm for conspiracies to run rampant. 264 00:13:40,664 --> 00:13:43,223 Speaker 2: And then it became a bottom up movement with QAnon, 265 00:13:43,343 --> 00:13:45,824 Speaker 2: but they started adding to say the children, another call 266 00:13:45,864 --> 00:13:47,184 Speaker 2: for women to join the movement. 267 00:14:00,064 --> 00:14:02,863 Speaker 3: Oh, when you went to these events, how did people 268 00:14:02,944 --> 00:14:06,103 Speaker 3: treat you? Did you ever feel unsafe? 269 00:14:06,304 --> 00:14:08,184 Speaker 2: I'm a white, middle aged woman. I can walk where 270 00:14:08,184 --> 00:14:11,903 Speaker 2: I went. That's what I learned that interesting, and unfortunately. 271 00:14:11,904 --> 00:14:13,944 Speaker 2: The other thing that I learned is because I'm a white, 272 00:14:13,984 --> 00:14:16,503 Speaker 2: middle aged woman, I was pretty much accepted anywhere I 273 00:14:16,544 --> 00:14:18,984 Speaker 2: went because I'm number one, I'm visible, it's more fifty, 274 00:14:19,304 --> 00:14:22,304 Speaker 2: and I'm also there's just an assumption if I'm not 275 00:14:22,344 --> 00:14:26,184 Speaker 2: there to do battle, that I'm there to participate as 276 00:14:26,624 --> 00:14:29,184 Speaker 2: an exuber of participant. And I didn't. I mean, I 277 00:14:29,184 --> 00:14:31,224 Speaker 2: just walked around and talked to people, and you know, 278 00:14:31,264 --> 00:14:34,383 Speaker 2: some people had more social capital than others. The other 279 00:14:34,384 --> 00:14:37,064 Speaker 2: peoples would just people would just literally drop the inWORD 280 00:14:37,104 --> 00:14:39,944 Speaker 2: in front of me without flinching, and which I thought 281 00:14:39,984 --> 00:14:42,824 Speaker 2: was really fascinating that the assumption was that that was 282 00:14:42,864 --> 00:14:43,624 Speaker 2: okay with me. 283 00:14:44,304 --> 00:14:46,504 Speaker 3: How were they when they when they realized that you 284 00:14:46,544 --> 00:14:49,264 Speaker 3: were interviewing them, or that you didn't message so well. 285 00:14:49,424 --> 00:14:53,024 Speaker 2: I wasn't tricking anybody. Fine, and Tammy. The interesting thing 286 00:14:53,024 --> 00:14:54,904 Speaker 2: that didn't start out to be a book, right, it 287 00:14:54,984 --> 00:14:57,464 Speaker 2: was going to be an academic project, but I cossed 288 00:14:57,464 --> 00:15:00,264 Speaker 2: to many lying pretty early on. It was with Tammy, 289 00:15:00,424 --> 00:15:02,184 Speaker 2: who is one of the women in the book an 290 00:15:02,264 --> 00:15:05,624 Speaker 2: it film, who lives in rural Pennsylvania, and after just 291 00:15:05,624 --> 00:15:08,544 Speaker 2: talking to her maybe five six weeks, I could tell 292 00:15:08,624 --> 00:15:10,704 Speaker 2: she had no one in her life she could rely on. 293 00:15:10,824 --> 00:15:13,144 Speaker 2: Her family is one I described as living in an 294 00:15:13,144 --> 00:15:17,104 Speaker 2: American carnage where literally everyone is as a cycle of poverty, 295 00:15:17,224 --> 00:15:21,584 Speaker 2: drug addiction, and incarceration NonStop. And we talked pretty consistently, 296 00:15:21,624 --> 00:15:23,704 Speaker 2: and she told me her story, and she said she 297 00:15:23,744 --> 00:15:25,824 Speaker 2: wanted me to write a book is she wanted people 298 00:15:25,864 --> 00:15:28,984 Speaker 2: to know how some people live. And then it was 299 00:15:29,024 --> 00:15:31,224 Speaker 2: just about two weeks later I got a call because 300 00:15:31,264 --> 00:15:33,904 Speaker 2: one of her children committed suicide in the county jail, 301 00:15:34,184 --> 00:15:37,903 Speaker 2: her trances daughter in the men's county jail in rural Pennsylvania. 302 00:15:37,984 --> 00:15:39,824 Speaker 2: That I was literally the first person she called, a 303 00:15:39,864 --> 00:15:43,304 Speaker 2: woman from the internet that she'd known for me two months, 304 00:15:43,504 --> 00:15:46,024 Speaker 2: which gives you a real idea of people's isolation. 305 00:15:46,344 --> 00:15:49,024 Speaker 4: So I'm thinking, like the Nazi Party, something I'm familiar 306 00:15:49,104 --> 00:15:53,664 Speaker 4: with from studying, that women voters in the Nazi Party 307 00:15:53,704 --> 00:15:56,544 Speaker 4: and their conspiracies were the same as men, right at 308 00:15:56,544 --> 00:15:59,383 Speaker 4: the same percentages, and the same with the KKK. There 309 00:15:59,384 --> 00:16:02,824 Speaker 4: were almost as many women's supporters, despite the fact that 310 00:16:02,824 --> 00:16:07,064 Speaker 4: the KKK was clearly misogynistic. So I was wondering, what's 311 00:16:07,064 --> 00:16:09,784 Speaker 4: your sense is for the people that you taught to 312 00:16:10,064 --> 00:16:14,664 Speaker 4: how they dealt with or how they processed clearly misogynistic 313 00:16:15,144 --> 00:16:19,984 Speaker 4: certainly on the outside of patriarchy and misogynistic tendencies inside 314 00:16:19,984 --> 00:16:23,544 Speaker 4: the Mega movement. I mean, how do they square that circle, 315 00:16:23,664 --> 00:16:24,344 Speaker 4: or if they. 316 00:16:24,264 --> 00:16:24,824 Speaker 1: Did at all. 317 00:16:25,184 --> 00:16:27,584 Speaker 2: And here's a contradiction. For example, of von is a 318 00:16:27,704 --> 00:16:31,304 Speaker 2: very strong personality. I can't imagine anyone leading a Vonn 319 00:16:31,384 --> 00:16:34,824 Speaker 2: around by the notes. She's opinionated, she has strong personality, 320 00:16:35,344 --> 00:16:38,704 Speaker 2: She's very strong. And yet when we did that road 321 00:16:38,704 --> 00:16:41,584 Speaker 2: trip together where we filmed the documentary, there's a point 322 00:16:41,624 --> 00:16:44,104 Speaker 2: where she was talking to me about free will and 323 00:16:44,304 --> 00:16:46,624 Speaker 2: she doesn't understand why I'm not willing to give up 324 00:16:46,704 --> 00:16:49,824 Speaker 2: free will. And I always was weird to me because 325 00:16:49,824 --> 00:16:52,944 Speaker 2: I kept thinking, like, I'm trying to imagine telling her 326 00:16:52,984 --> 00:16:55,704 Speaker 2: what to do, because in the real world, I don't 327 00:16:55,744 --> 00:16:59,744 Speaker 2: think that flies. But yet somehow, when it's online and 328 00:16:59,784 --> 00:17:03,344 Speaker 2: it's part of this bubble, you biven, they want someone 329 00:17:03,384 --> 00:17:05,144 Speaker 2: to tell them what to do, which is why you 330 00:17:05,144 --> 00:17:07,904 Speaker 2: know that whole joke when everyone started calling Trump daddy, 331 00:17:08,144 --> 00:17:09,904 Speaker 2: it was only kind of the jobble, the kind of 332 00:17:09,944 --> 00:17:12,504 Speaker 2: actually look at him like that. There is a segment 333 00:17:12,584 --> 00:17:16,624 Speaker 2: of this demographic that wants someone just to tell them 334 00:17:16,624 --> 00:17:19,944 Speaker 2: what to do, you know, and they probably won't do it, 335 00:17:20,304 --> 00:17:22,024 Speaker 2: but there's some sort of comfort that's which is why 336 00:17:22,304 --> 00:17:24,304 Speaker 2: they I think these women would be comfortable with an 337 00:17:24,304 --> 00:17:27,424 Speaker 2: authoritarian government in some ways, or at least they think 338 00:17:27,464 --> 00:17:30,224 Speaker 2: they would until they experience it, you know. As far 339 00:17:30,264 --> 00:17:32,344 Speaker 2: as how they're dealing with some of these other issues, 340 00:17:32,504 --> 00:17:35,904 Speaker 2: I've just been kind of quiet right now watching like 341 00:17:35,984 --> 00:17:38,464 Speaker 2: the Epstein file stuff. You know. You know, if you 342 00:17:38,584 --> 00:17:41,144 Speaker 2: follow qan on for the last several years, you would 343 00:17:41,184 --> 00:17:43,424 Speaker 2: know that that was like the number one thing, and 344 00:17:43,464 --> 00:17:46,224 Speaker 2: it was what drew most of the women that I 345 00:17:46,384 --> 00:17:50,104 Speaker 2: have encountered into that movement. And you know, I want 346 00:17:50,144 --> 00:17:52,984 Speaker 2: to say, like, hey, guys, you were right. There is 347 00:17:53,144 --> 00:17:57,064 Speaker 2: a cabal of powerful men who are abusing children. You 348 00:17:57,144 --> 00:18:00,424 Speaker 2: were actually right. But the problem is they think that 349 00:18:00,544 --> 00:18:03,264 Speaker 2: Trump is here as a white hat. If you're in 350 00:18:03,264 --> 00:18:05,944 Speaker 2: the conspiratuality world, you're calling it a white hat, and 351 00:18:06,024 --> 00:18:08,704 Speaker 2: that's someone here to kind of working behind the scenes 352 00:18:08,784 --> 00:18:11,824 Speaker 2: to make the good stuff happened. And then you also 353 00:18:11,904 --> 00:18:15,304 Speaker 2: know with conspiracies that again we've established there is a 354 00:18:15,304 --> 00:18:18,144 Speaker 2: shred of truth here about this elite cabala powerful men 355 00:18:18,584 --> 00:18:20,784 Speaker 2: to protect each other. So we've got that. So that's 356 00:18:20,864 --> 00:18:23,464 Speaker 2: the truth. But with the conspiracies, you can then take it, 357 00:18:23,584 --> 00:18:26,944 Speaker 2: rationalize it, justify it, twist it, add to it, subtract 358 00:18:26,984 --> 00:18:31,024 Speaker 2: to it, and change the meaning however works for your narrative. Essentially, 359 00:18:31,424 --> 00:18:33,944 Speaker 2: isn't that the beauty of conspiracies? And if they want 360 00:18:33,944 --> 00:18:36,584 Speaker 2: to go from a religious angle, it's God works for 361 00:18:36,944 --> 00:18:39,784 Speaker 2: blond men. So in some ways you almost have to 362 00:18:39,784 --> 00:18:42,944 Speaker 2: think about Qan on conspiracies. It is almost it almost 363 00:18:42,944 --> 00:18:46,144 Speaker 2: operates like a religious set of religious beliefs, almost, but 364 00:18:46,264 --> 00:18:50,504 Speaker 2: it's prophets and there's people who are getting messages from above. 365 00:18:50,984 --> 00:18:53,744 Speaker 2: And you think about some of the Christian extremism. If 366 00:18:53,784 --> 00:18:57,263 Speaker 2: both belief systems are they're all preaching the same end 367 00:18:57,264 --> 00:18:58,984 Speaker 2: of days, at the end of the the end of 368 00:18:59,024 --> 00:19:01,904 Speaker 2: the day, and so you start That's how you can 369 00:19:01,944 --> 00:19:04,384 Speaker 2: also see how all of these movements have meshed together. 370 00:19:04,784 --> 00:19:07,784 Speaker 4: So the Epstein files, as long as it's you know, 371 00:19:07,944 --> 00:19:12,784 Speaker 4: Bill Clinton and potential Democrats, it's okay. But once Trump 372 00:19:12,864 --> 00:19:17,224 Speaker 4: and like Republicans may be an issue is the concern 373 00:19:17,304 --> 00:19:20,504 Speaker 4: that if they voice those questions, that they're out of 374 00:19:20,544 --> 00:19:23,304 Speaker 4: the community right to be conspiracy theorists, you still want 375 00:19:23,304 --> 00:19:26,304 Speaker 4: to be in the mainstream of the conspiracy right. You 376 00:19:26,344 --> 00:19:27,464 Speaker 4: don't want to be left out. 377 00:19:28,024 --> 00:19:30,184 Speaker 2: Well, you also have to remember again we're talking about 378 00:19:30,224 --> 00:19:33,664 Speaker 2: people that have substituted their real world social groups in 379 00:19:33,744 --> 00:19:37,384 Speaker 2: many cases for their online identities, and that's where they 380 00:19:37,384 --> 00:19:39,984 Speaker 2: spend the both of their time. And so yeah, if 381 00:19:40,024 --> 00:19:43,104 Speaker 2: you change your belief system, you're going to have to 382 00:19:43,384 --> 00:19:44,904 Speaker 2: figure out what you're going to do with your day. 383 00:19:44,904 --> 00:19:47,744 Speaker 2: If you're spending sixteen hours on the day in your 384 00:19:47,784 --> 00:19:49,864 Speaker 2: online groups, how are you going to fill that time? 385 00:19:50,264 --> 00:19:51,704 Speaker 2: Or if you you know, if you're one of the 386 00:19:51,744 --> 00:19:54,264 Speaker 2: people who has become a digital content creator, how are 387 00:19:54,304 --> 00:19:56,864 Speaker 2: you going to keep making your money. This also happened 388 00:19:57,344 --> 00:20:01,864 Speaker 2: with the politicians adopting. Whether they actually believe conspiracy theories 389 00:20:01,984 --> 00:20:04,424 Speaker 2: or not, it is hard for me to know, because again, 390 00:20:04,464 --> 00:20:07,704 Speaker 2: they have motivation. But if what I have seen is 391 00:20:07,824 --> 00:20:11,824 Speaker 2: people don't flip overnight typically, although it does have to 392 00:20:11,904 --> 00:20:16,064 Speaker 2: run up often into something personal before people will stop 393 00:20:16,104 --> 00:20:18,664 Speaker 2: and think, hey, wait a minute, I know that's not true. 394 00:20:18,704 --> 00:20:22,744 Speaker 2: Because one of the women I spoke to, whose former 395 00:20:23,144 --> 00:20:27,664 Speaker 2: MAGA and QAnon conspiracist, she said she had nursing in 396 00:20:27,704 --> 00:20:30,344 Speaker 2: her background. And so some of the information about the 397 00:20:30,344 --> 00:20:33,624 Speaker 2: code vaccine was finally what got her to start questioning 398 00:20:33,664 --> 00:20:36,784 Speaker 2: things and to take a step back. Another woman, it 399 00:20:36,864 --> 00:20:39,864 Speaker 2: was meeting a parent or no meeting a co had 400 00:20:39,864 --> 00:20:41,784 Speaker 2: a friend who with a coworker who knew a parent 401 00:20:41,824 --> 00:20:44,624 Speaker 2: of a Sandy Hook victim, and this person had been 402 00:20:44,624 --> 00:20:47,504 Speaker 2: a Sandy Hook denier, a nine to eleven truther, and 403 00:20:47,784 --> 00:20:51,704 Speaker 2: that because she trusted this person and saw and saw 404 00:20:51,744 --> 00:20:54,064 Speaker 2: and felt the emotion coming from this person giving her 405 00:20:54,104 --> 00:20:57,744 Speaker 2: this information, that looped the switch. But often it takes 406 00:20:57,744 --> 00:21:01,624 Speaker 2: something really dramatic like that to happen before people are 407 00:21:01,664 --> 00:21:04,824 Speaker 2: willing to something has to replace it. You also have 408 00:21:04,864 --> 00:21:06,864 Speaker 2: to be willing to admit you were duped, and some 409 00:21:06,904 --> 00:21:10,304 Speaker 2: people's egos don't do that easily. Some people egos do 410 00:21:10,384 --> 00:21:11,904 Speaker 2: that to the point where they want to flip it 411 00:21:12,064 --> 00:21:14,864 Speaker 2: and now become famous for that, even though what they're 412 00:21:14,864 --> 00:21:17,984 Speaker 2: saying is not really what's going on. You know, again, 413 00:21:17,984 --> 00:21:20,584 Speaker 2: people's motivation. And I think the one thing though, I 414 00:21:20,584 --> 00:21:23,664 Speaker 2: would say, as people become more isolated, it's very easy 415 00:21:23,704 --> 00:21:26,344 Speaker 2: for friends and family to just distance themselves, that kind 416 00:21:26,344 --> 00:21:28,464 Speaker 2: of cut them off, that just keeps them in their 417 00:21:28,464 --> 00:21:29,584 Speaker 2: silos even more. 418 00:21:42,544 --> 00:21:45,384 Speaker 3: Can you talk a little bit about the documentary. You 419 00:21:45,464 --> 00:21:48,184 Speaker 3: went on a trip with one of the January sixth participants, 420 00:21:48,504 --> 00:21:50,504 Speaker 3: on a road trip, like from DC to Idaho. Can 421 00:21:50,544 --> 00:21:52,544 Speaker 3: you talk about where the idea came from and what 422 00:21:52,584 --> 00:21:53,344 Speaker 3: you took away from it. 423 00:21:53,424 --> 00:21:56,304 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a very spontaneous situation also, and that 424 00:21:56,424 --> 00:21:59,824 Speaker 2: was with Yvonne, whose sentencing was postponed from June until 425 00:21:59,864 --> 00:22:02,304 Speaker 2: September twenty twenty three. Is by now We've got to 426 00:22:02,304 --> 00:22:05,424 Speaker 2: remember in twenty twenty three, many people have lost their jobs, 427 00:22:05,424 --> 00:22:07,504 Speaker 2: depending on how far down the q Andon rabbit hole 428 00:22:07,504 --> 00:22:10,424 Speaker 2: they've gone. Some of them, like evon'stop paying their house payments. 429 00:22:10,464 --> 00:22:12,144 Speaker 2: So there's not a lot of money going on here. 430 00:22:12,464 --> 00:22:15,064 Speaker 2: So she needed to get home from DC on her own, 431 00:22:15,384 --> 00:22:17,464 Speaker 2: and she had a kid who needed a car driven 432 00:22:17,504 --> 00:22:19,824 Speaker 2: from Ohio. So she asked me. She called me up 433 00:22:19,824 --> 00:22:21,504 Speaker 2: one day, it said, would you be willing to drive 434 00:22:21,664 --> 00:22:24,744 Speaker 2: back across country with me? But it's interesting, I think, 435 00:22:24,824 --> 00:22:28,664 Speaker 2: because it's one thing to reads up online, it's another 436 00:22:28,664 --> 00:22:31,424 Speaker 2: thing to hear someone actually saying it knowing they're being recorded. 437 00:22:31,504 --> 00:22:33,824 Speaker 2: Like McDonald's and the Hamburger Meat. You know, there's a 438 00:22:33,904 --> 00:22:38,184 Speaker 2: conspiracy that McDonald's uses human meat in their hammers. There's 439 00:22:38,184 --> 00:22:40,783 Speaker 2: a truth to that, but you know they believe this. 440 00:22:41,304 --> 00:22:44,584 Speaker 2: And then what was really interesting was a trump an arcade. 441 00:22:44,624 --> 00:22:47,824 Speaker 2: Junior and Musk all went to McDonald's or were doing 442 00:22:47,824 --> 00:22:51,064 Speaker 2: that photo op with their bags, and I thought, well, wow, 443 00:22:51,104 --> 00:22:53,184 Speaker 2: this is going to go down. Are they all eating 444 00:22:53,264 --> 00:22:56,304 Speaker 2: given meat here? But no, that wasn't the answer. The 445 00:22:56,384 --> 00:22:58,984 Speaker 2: answer was Elon Musk had bought out all the franchises 446 00:22:59,024 --> 00:23:01,984 Speaker 2: with McDonald and had turned it all around. You can 447 00:23:02,024 --> 00:23:02,904 Speaker 2: believe whatever you want. 448 00:23:03,184 --> 00:23:05,784 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, is there any sense of like either 449 00:23:05,824 --> 00:23:07,984 Speaker 4: with these folks that you know that you looked at 450 00:23:08,344 --> 00:23:11,544 Speaker 4: of you know, alter bring their their views on things, 451 00:23:11,984 --> 00:23:14,784 Speaker 4: or even remorse or oh I got it wrong? Or 452 00:23:14,944 --> 00:23:17,544 Speaker 4: most of them stuck with it right, I mean they 453 00:23:17,704 --> 00:23:18,944 Speaker 4: still were they were. 454 00:23:19,144 --> 00:23:21,984 Speaker 2: Five years ago. Now. They stuck with it because they trusted. 455 00:23:22,464 --> 00:23:25,384 Speaker 2: They trusted the plan. And the plan is Trump's going 456 00:23:25,424 --> 00:23:27,064 Speaker 2: to get back in and he did. He's going to 457 00:23:27,144 --> 00:23:29,304 Speaker 2: pardon him, and he did. So how are you getting 458 00:23:29,424 --> 00:23:29,864 Speaker 2: mad at that? 459 00:23:30,064 --> 00:23:32,904 Speaker 3: You also spend a lot of time in wellness and 460 00:23:32,944 --> 00:23:37,384 Speaker 3: spiritual places online too. How do those spaces become gateways 461 00:23:37,704 --> 00:23:39,704 Speaker 3: into this more extreme political stuff? 462 00:23:40,104 --> 00:23:42,384 Speaker 2: That's the interesting thing because a lot of is the 463 00:23:42,424 --> 00:23:45,384 Speaker 2: anti vaccination stuff, and this didn't just you know, the 464 00:23:45,424 --> 00:23:48,224 Speaker 2: autism and tail and all stuff didn't just start with 465 00:23:48,384 --> 00:23:50,744 Speaker 2: our coignet if you've remember back back, but two thousand 466 00:23:50,744 --> 00:23:54,144 Speaker 2: and eight is maybe seven something, Jenny McCarthy was on 467 00:23:54,224 --> 00:23:59,304 Speaker 2: a big campaign about vaccinations and autism. And I think 468 00:23:59,544 --> 00:24:03,584 Speaker 2: that there are a lot of parents, women in particular 469 00:24:03,744 --> 00:24:07,224 Speaker 2: mothers who are out there forming these communities online looking 470 00:24:07,264 --> 00:24:09,304 Speaker 2: for a lot of answers. And it's always we always 471 00:24:09,304 --> 00:24:11,464 Speaker 2: want to reason for something awful, or we want to 472 00:24:11,464 --> 00:24:13,864 Speaker 2: have reason for something challenging. We want to reason that 473 00:24:14,224 --> 00:24:17,864 Speaker 2: why things are difficult, and it's I think it's easier 474 00:24:17,904 --> 00:24:20,464 Speaker 2: to have something to point to in some ways, even 475 00:24:20,464 --> 00:24:23,584 Speaker 2: though there's no scientific basis for it, which is weird 476 00:24:24,104 --> 00:24:26,624 Speaker 2: because what I found really interesting with most of the 477 00:24:26,744 --> 00:24:29,344 Speaker 2: conspiracists I talked to, who are middle aged, who are 478 00:24:29,384 --> 00:24:31,584 Speaker 2: like in their fifties, is when they explained their past, 479 00:24:32,024 --> 00:24:35,544 Speaker 2: it's never in terms of conspiracies. It's never in terms 480 00:24:35,544 --> 00:24:37,664 Speaker 2: of a conspiracy that was happening and this is what 481 00:24:37,744 --> 00:24:41,264 Speaker 2: happened because of it. Never. It just life deals with 482 00:24:41,344 --> 00:24:44,624 Speaker 2: some random stuff sometimes and it's not always great, you know, 483 00:24:44,664 --> 00:24:47,384 Speaker 2: because Cammy, for example, tried to tell me about one 484 00:24:47,384 --> 00:24:49,023 Speaker 2: of the first thing she told me what her kids 485 00:24:49,104 --> 00:24:52,224 Speaker 2: were involved in, a scandal called kids for Cash. I 486 00:24:52,224 --> 00:24:54,744 Speaker 2: immediately thought it was a Q and on conspiracy, but 487 00:24:54,784 --> 00:24:58,064 Speaker 2: it's not. There really was a scandal in Lucern County, 488 00:24:58,104 --> 00:25:01,504 Speaker 2: Pennsylvania in the early two thousands where two Democratic judges 489 00:25:01,824 --> 00:25:04,944 Speaker 2: were taking kickbacks from a private developer for a for 490 00:25:05,464 --> 00:25:08,984 Speaker 2: profit juvenile dissension center. And part of the millions of 491 00:25:09,024 --> 00:25:11,664 Speaker 2: dollars they got was to help keep it full. And 492 00:25:11,704 --> 00:25:14,104 Speaker 2: these are the days right after Columbine when schools were 493 00:25:14,104 --> 00:25:18,024 Speaker 2: taking zero tolerance policies, and so this this juvenile court 494 00:25:18,104 --> 00:25:21,304 Speaker 2: judge did his scared straight assemblies at all the schools 495 00:25:21,624 --> 00:25:23,624 Speaker 2: and if you were sent to the office, even if 496 00:25:23,624 --> 00:25:25,384 Speaker 2: a couple of guys, you know, some of the grade 497 00:25:25,384 --> 00:25:28,384 Speaker 2: were having a push slug out fest on the playground, 498 00:25:28,704 --> 00:25:32,344 Speaker 2: they would end up incarcerated. Two of Tammy's sons were incarcerated. 499 00:25:32,384 --> 00:25:34,584 Speaker 2: One of them was in a special ed class and 500 00:25:34,704 --> 00:25:36,304 Speaker 2: he was before he was a teenager who was putting 501 00:25:36,344 --> 00:25:39,224 Speaker 2: there for two years. And you know, because they prayed 502 00:25:39,264 --> 00:25:41,344 Speaker 2: on four people, They prayed on people that didn't have 503 00:25:41,384 --> 00:25:43,904 Speaker 2: private attorneys. And when you walked in, the clock of 504 00:25:43,904 --> 00:25:46,304 Speaker 2: the court would encourage you to You could wait all 505 00:25:46,384 --> 00:25:48,504 Speaker 2: day for a public defender to show up. It could 506 00:25:48,504 --> 00:25:51,144 Speaker 2: take all day, maybe even tomorrow, or you could just 507 00:25:51,304 --> 00:25:52,984 Speaker 2: wait your right to counsel. We'll be in and out 508 00:25:53,024 --> 00:25:54,944 Speaker 2: of here in five minutes. And that's what the vast 509 00:25:54,944 --> 00:25:57,424 Speaker 2: majority of those parents did, because what the kid had 510 00:25:57,464 --> 00:26:00,704 Speaker 2: done was so minimal. They would have gotten maybe detention 511 00:26:01,344 --> 00:26:04,304 Speaker 2: or something that they didn't see what was coming. And 512 00:26:04,344 --> 00:26:07,664 Speaker 2: then they all came down, they were incarcerated, and then 513 00:26:07,704 --> 00:26:09,944 Speaker 2: the interested there was Joe Biden when he was on 514 00:26:09,984 --> 00:26:14,224 Speaker 2: his way out of office, he did a clemency whatever 515 00:26:14,584 --> 00:26:17,504 Speaker 2: part was in a pardon clemency, I guess to one 516 00:26:17,544 --> 00:26:21,384 Speaker 2: of those judges it was Judge Conahan. He commuted his sentence. 517 00:26:21,504 --> 00:26:23,664 Speaker 2: And so it's like, you know, they really isn't about 518 00:26:23,664 --> 00:26:28,224 Speaker 2: political parties. It's about powerful people protecting powerful people. And 519 00:26:28,304 --> 00:26:31,664 Speaker 2: I was outraged by it. Tammy wasn't surprised at all 520 00:26:31,744 --> 00:26:33,624 Speaker 2: because she It wasn't because he was a Democrat or 521 00:26:33,664 --> 00:26:36,224 Speaker 2: the judges of Democrat. It's because she and she knows 522 00:26:36,264 --> 00:26:39,184 Speaker 2: power protects power, but it doesn't keep her from explaining 523 00:26:39,184 --> 00:26:41,544 Speaker 2: it to your conspiracies. You know, one of those kids 524 00:26:41,584 --> 00:26:44,624 Speaker 2: is dead now, the committed suicide in their their jail cell. 525 00:26:44,904 --> 00:26:48,064 Speaker 2: The other kid has been in and out of person 526 00:26:48,464 --> 00:26:50,424 Speaker 2: most of an adult life. He's in his thirties now. 527 00:26:50,824 --> 00:26:53,944 Speaker 2: He's actually said he feels more comfortable institutionalized at this 528 00:26:53,984 --> 00:26:56,104 Speaker 2: point because they started out in foster care before that, 529 00:26:56,344 --> 00:26:59,304 Speaker 2: because I guess parents use youth service, child child and 530 00:26:59,344 --> 00:27:02,464 Speaker 2: youth services as a wethod against each other when they're 531 00:27:02,464 --> 00:27:04,824 Speaker 2: splitting up. I had not talked to people who had 532 00:27:04,824 --> 00:27:07,344 Speaker 2: lives like this. You know, my life is not like this, 533 00:27:08,064 --> 00:27:11,504 Speaker 2: and so when you start to hear about the unrelenting 534 00:27:11,984 --> 00:27:17,384 Speaker 2: cycle of trauma, of poverty, whatever you're dealing with, addiction, 535 00:27:17,464 --> 00:27:19,304 Speaker 2: it is a huge problem. You know, how do people 536 00:27:19,304 --> 00:27:21,704 Speaker 2: get out of that. We don't have communities, We don't 537 00:27:21,784 --> 00:27:27,904 Speaker 2: have a very robut social faiety anymore. That people are 538 00:27:27,944 --> 00:27:30,064 Speaker 2: on their own and that's the Internet, and that's where 539 00:27:30,064 --> 00:27:32,064 Speaker 2: they find community and they find their answers. 540 00:27:32,464 --> 00:27:36,704 Speaker 4: Could you do a compare and contrast on how females 541 00:27:37,144 --> 00:27:39,624 Speaker 4: are different from males when it comes to conspiracy theories, 542 00:27:39,664 --> 00:27:41,784 Speaker 4: or at least those conspiracy theories. I mean, do they 543 00:27:41,904 --> 00:27:45,224 Speaker 4: believe kind of the same things or were there and 544 00:27:45,264 --> 00:27:48,864 Speaker 4: were their journeys to January sixth the same. Is there 545 00:27:48,864 --> 00:27:52,584 Speaker 4: a gender difference between their conspiratorial outlooks? 546 00:27:53,024 --> 00:27:55,544 Speaker 2: In general? I would say that participation might be a 547 00:27:55,584 --> 00:27:59,984 Speaker 2: bit different what I observed on January sixth. First of all, 548 00:28:00,264 --> 00:28:01,904 Speaker 2: there were a lot of people who were there who 549 00:28:01,904 --> 00:28:05,744 Speaker 2: were never near the building, so there were the percentage 550 00:28:05,744 --> 00:28:08,784 Speaker 2: of people that were actually adjacent to the grounds was 551 00:28:09,184 --> 00:28:12,504 Speaker 2: a lot the maths. Majority of people didn't do what 552 00:28:12,544 --> 00:28:15,544 Speaker 2: we saw on TV. What surfights me was the violent 553 00:28:15,584 --> 00:28:18,264 Speaker 2: rhetoric I heard coming out of men's mouths more than women. 554 00:28:18,824 --> 00:28:21,584 Speaker 2: But the women who would be sitting shoulders's shoulder with 555 00:28:21,624 --> 00:28:25,584 Speaker 2: someone potentially a full body armor almost just taking southeast 556 00:28:25,864 --> 00:28:29,104 Speaker 2: and doing it like it was totally normal, you know, 557 00:28:29,184 --> 00:28:31,744 Speaker 2: while someone next to them might be like, hang my pants. 558 00:28:31,784 --> 00:28:34,624 Speaker 2: And that was kind of a weird disconnect for me. 559 00:28:34,664 --> 00:28:36,784 Speaker 2: And then and then started to recognize that at other 560 00:28:36,864 --> 00:28:39,424 Speaker 2: events I went to, there's a it's a different culture 561 00:28:39,624 --> 00:28:42,184 Speaker 2: in lots of ways. There's things that are normalized that 562 00:28:42,224 --> 00:28:44,584 Speaker 2: don't feel normal to me at all. And some of 563 00:28:44,624 --> 00:28:48,344 Speaker 2: that was people spreak me about killing government officials out 564 00:28:48,424 --> 00:28:52,664 Speaker 2: in public, and people coming in helmets and body armor 565 00:28:52,984 --> 00:28:57,504 Speaker 2: because death thought spontaneous. So there's definitely a group that 566 00:28:57,584 --> 00:29:00,824 Speaker 2: saw opportunity, for sure. I think that there's a lot 567 00:29:00,824 --> 00:29:03,904 Speaker 2: of people like the women I talked to who all 568 00:29:04,064 --> 00:29:07,824 Speaker 2: you know, like they just need that encouragement And what 569 00:29:07,944 --> 00:29:09,264 Speaker 2: do you call it? I want to say, it's not 570 00:29:09,304 --> 00:29:13,104 Speaker 2: great think even it's that feeling you get from being there. 571 00:29:13,624 --> 00:29:16,024 Speaker 2: It's a feeling because I could feel it. It felt 572 00:29:16,064 --> 00:29:19,024 Speaker 2: to me like a sinister carnival out there because it 573 00:29:19,104 --> 00:29:22,104 Speaker 2: was all such a surreal disconnect. You know, some guy 574 00:29:22,184 --> 00:29:25,664 Speaker 2: walking around with a flagpole that's got a point whittled 575 00:29:25,664 --> 00:29:28,144 Speaker 2: at the end of it, this other woman over here 576 00:29:28,144 --> 00:29:30,664 Speaker 2: in a prayer circle, and someone over here is showing 577 00:29:30,704 --> 00:29:33,744 Speaker 2: pictures or our grandchildren, while someone over here is getting 578 00:29:33,744 --> 00:29:35,744 Speaker 2: in my camera yelling me that the police on our friend, 579 00:29:35,784 --> 00:29:37,264 Speaker 2: they want to take our children or put it in 580 00:29:37,344 --> 00:29:40,584 Speaker 2: concentration camps, and then watching the crowd turn on the police. 581 00:29:40,984 --> 00:29:43,264 Speaker 2: When word got out that Ashley Babbott had been shot, 582 00:29:43,624 --> 00:29:44,984 Speaker 2: as I was on the side of that was on 583 00:29:45,024 --> 00:29:47,344 Speaker 2: the East Front where the FABI swat team that was 584 00:29:47,384 --> 00:29:50,264 Speaker 2: waiting to accompany the EMTs in to retrieve the body 585 00:29:50,424 --> 00:29:53,264 Speaker 2: was and as soon as they came out and put 586 00:29:53,264 --> 00:29:56,384 Speaker 2: her on the ambulet. The entire crowd turned on law enforcement. 587 00:29:56,984 --> 00:29:58,944 Speaker 2: So there I guess the difference between the men and 588 00:29:58,944 --> 00:30:01,024 Speaker 2: the women was the men seem to be a lot 589 00:30:01,064 --> 00:30:06,304 Speaker 2: more interested in the militarization of conspiracies, potentially probably more 590 00:30:06,304 --> 00:30:10,064 Speaker 2: in the disinformation and the foreign influenced stuff. It's probably 591 00:30:10,104 --> 00:30:14,024 Speaker 2: more masculine thing. The women, the ones I studied, anyway, 592 00:30:14,424 --> 00:30:18,504 Speaker 2: were really captured through the anti vax the covid era. Also, 593 00:30:18,584 --> 00:30:20,824 Speaker 2: religion played a role in it. For a Vaughn, she 594 00:30:20,904 --> 00:30:23,784 Speaker 2: had been very involved in her evangelical church and so 595 00:30:23,904 --> 00:30:27,344 Speaker 2: when they stopped meeting in person, that to her was aha, 596 00:30:27,864 --> 00:30:31,224 Speaker 2: it's a man made institution designed to control us, and 597 00:30:31,384 --> 00:30:33,984 Speaker 2: because God would never shut his doors to his followers. 598 00:30:34,264 --> 00:30:36,664 Speaker 3: So how was it emotionally for you? How has it 599 00:30:36,664 --> 00:30:39,064 Speaker 3: been to spend years in close proximity to these people 600 00:30:39,584 --> 00:30:41,624 Speaker 3: and whose world years are so different from your own? 601 00:30:41,664 --> 00:30:43,704 Speaker 3: How has all this work impected you. 602 00:30:43,984 --> 00:30:46,384 Speaker 2: A different ways? There was a period of time when 603 00:30:46,384 --> 00:30:48,504 Speaker 2: I was learning their stories, especially that there was a 604 00:30:48,544 --> 00:30:51,344 Speaker 2: lot of vicarious trauma kind of involved with it, where 605 00:30:51,384 --> 00:30:54,064 Speaker 2: it just felt it was just very oppressing. It changed 606 00:30:54,104 --> 00:30:56,824 Speaker 2: me though, for the better, I think because it made 607 00:30:56,864 --> 00:30:59,624 Speaker 2: me say with a lot of discomfort, worrying about what 608 00:30:59,704 --> 00:31:02,264 Speaker 2: my what my side was going to think about me 609 00:31:02,384 --> 00:31:06,344 Speaker 2: being friendly to the other side, right, because I wasn't. 610 00:31:06,344 --> 00:31:09,064 Speaker 2: I never was there to mock anybody. But I really 611 00:31:09,144 --> 00:31:12,584 Speaker 2: truly want to understand how, you know, how that happens. 612 00:31:12,824 --> 00:31:17,704 Speaker 2: How can you completely reconstruct brand new reality it doesn't exist? 613 00:31:18,424 --> 00:31:20,424 Speaker 2: But that was also the nice thing about the shield 614 00:31:20,424 --> 00:31:24,224 Speaker 2: of ethnography. Ethnography is about understanding of different culture. It's 615 00:31:24,264 --> 00:31:27,104 Speaker 2: about understanding the practices of that culture and what it 616 00:31:27,184 --> 00:31:28,464 Speaker 2: means to them, not to me. 617 00:31:28,784 --> 00:31:30,704 Speaker 3: Did it change how you look at the United States 618 00:31:30,784 --> 00:31:32,824 Speaker 3: or the culture or the political culture? 619 00:31:32,984 --> 00:31:35,624 Speaker 2: No, I mean I've seen the kind of decline for 620 00:31:35,664 --> 00:31:38,264 Speaker 2: a while. I think I remember saying when we had 621 00:31:38,264 --> 00:31:41,384 Speaker 2: that reality TV show wife swap, when we were willing 622 00:31:41,464 --> 00:31:43,944 Speaker 2: to take moms and put them in different families and 623 00:31:44,024 --> 00:31:47,304 Speaker 2: subject I just we've become a reality TV country and 624 00:31:47,344 --> 00:31:48,904 Speaker 2: we have a reality TV president. 625 00:31:49,184 --> 00:31:50,584 Speaker 3: So what are you working on? 626 00:31:50,704 --> 00:31:53,544 Speaker 2: Nick? Not sure yet. It comes out on January sixth, 627 00:31:53,624 --> 00:31:56,544 Speaker 2: And one thing I'm thinking about trying to do is 628 00:31:56,584 --> 00:31:59,784 Speaker 2: the one question I asked throughout this entire process, once 629 00:31:59,824 --> 00:32:03,424 Speaker 2: I started seeing the generational patterns, was what happened to 630 00:32:03,464 --> 00:32:05,984 Speaker 2: gen X. So that's kind of I guess that's my 631 00:32:06,064 --> 00:32:08,504 Speaker 2: next project is finding out what happened to gen X. 632 00:32:08,544 --> 00:32:10,664 Speaker 2: So I've been working on kind of trying to look 633 00:32:10,704 --> 00:32:13,184 Speaker 2: at the past and make sense of now. And I 634 00:32:13,224 --> 00:32:15,464 Speaker 2: think my generation was primed for some of this was 635 00:32:15,584 --> 00:32:19,144 Speaker 2: Satanic panic of the eighties. Pressed memory syndrome was that thing, 636 00:32:19,864 --> 00:32:22,984 Speaker 2: you know McMartin. You know the tunnels, the QAnon tunnels. 637 00:32:23,024 --> 00:32:26,024 Speaker 2: All of the gen xers can remember the McMartin preschool trials. 638 00:32:26,104 --> 00:32:28,024 Speaker 2: I mean, these are all but these conspiracy valves that 639 00:32:28,064 --> 00:32:30,184 Speaker 2: you can trace them back way way past that. These 640 00:32:30,184 --> 00:32:32,824 Speaker 2: are all themes that come up all the time in conspiracies. 641 00:32:32,904 --> 00:32:34,504 Speaker 2: So I don't know. I just think something happened with 642 00:32:34,544 --> 00:32:36,944 Speaker 2: gen X at some point that needs to be looked at, 643 00:32:36,944 --> 00:32:38,664 Speaker 2: because if you look back at the lack of selection, 644 00:32:39,184 --> 00:32:43,144 Speaker 2: this is after the first administration who delivered that second presidency, 645 00:32:43,304 --> 00:32:46,104 Speaker 2: it was seven white women by seven white middle aged 646 00:32:46,144 --> 00:32:49,504 Speaker 2: women by seven points, and their sons white boys when 647 00:32:49,544 --> 00:32:52,264 Speaker 2: they in their late twenties. So that's my son's age, 648 00:32:52,544 --> 00:32:54,664 Speaker 2: So I would assume it's gen X and their sons. 649 00:32:54,744 --> 00:32:57,504 Speaker 2: Gen X women and their sons were only two groups 650 00:32:57,584 --> 00:33:00,264 Speaker 2: that voted in that large of a gap. 651 00:33:00,624 --> 00:33:02,984 Speaker 3: So I think we can choose to be Gen X 652 00:33:03,064 --> 00:33:03,664 Speaker 3: or boomers. 653 00:33:03,664 --> 00:33:05,664 Speaker 2: I think, yeah, with what he are you? 654 00:33:05,744 --> 00:33:08,744 Speaker 3: So we're nineteen sixty For me, you're a bubble boomer. 655 00:33:08,824 --> 00:33:10,664 Speaker 3: Listening to this though, think I'll stay with the boomers. 656 00:33:10,664 --> 00:33:13,104 Speaker 2: It sounds like, actually, right now, you know what you 657 00:33:13,224 --> 00:33:16,264 Speaker 2: might be better off. Jacks has some problems staring on here. 658 00:33:16,344 --> 00:33:18,624 Speaker 3: Yeah, well we all do as a culture, and I 659 00:33:18,624 --> 00:33:20,504 Speaker 3: hope we'll get on a hope the stuff that you're 660 00:33:20,544 --> 00:33:23,664 Speaker 3: working on will help to influence people to understand what 661 00:33:23,704 --> 00:33:26,264 Speaker 3: these people are about, maybe how to help them, how 662 00:33:26,264 --> 00:33:28,184 Speaker 3: to help the culture. So we want to thank you 663 00:33:28,224 --> 00:33:29,504 Speaker 3: for spending so much time with us. 664 00:33:29,704 --> 00:33:30,624 Speaker 2: Thank you very much. 665 00:33:30,864 --> 00:33:34,424 Speaker 3: Interesting, and I would encourage people to watch the documentary 666 00:33:34,464 --> 00:33:35,584 Speaker 3: and read the book when it comes out. 667 00:33:35,824 --> 00:33:37,784 Speaker 2: Thank you very much for having me. It's I'm talking 668 00:33:37,824 --> 00:33:42,384 Speaker 2: to you. 669 00:33:43,424 --> 00:33:48,424 Speaker 1: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'sha, John Cipher, 670 00:33:48,744 --> 00:33:53,144 Speaker 1: and Jonathan Stern. The associate producer is Rachel Harner. Mission 671 00:33:53,184 --> 00:33:57,144 Speaker 1: Implausible It's a production of honorable mention and abominable pictures 672 00:33:57,264 --> 00:33:58,584 Speaker 1: for iHeart Podcasts.