WEBVTT - Forgiveness featuring Sandy Hook Promise founder Nicole Hockley and Alice Johnson 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:03.000 You're listening to Modern Rules, a production of MSNBC and 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:08.600 I heart Radio. I don't understand how his mother could 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:12.520 have allowed him to have all that access to firearms, 0:00:12.520 --> 0:00:15.239 and I don't understand how his mother didn't get him help. 0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:19.040 I don't think I hate them, but um I have 0:00:19.120 --> 0:00:22.439 not forgiven them. In order for me to move forward. 0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:27.560 I could not allow bitterness and unforgiveness to pause on me, 0:00:28.120 --> 0:00:30.960 because if I did, that meant that I was giving 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:37.400 someone else control over my life. When I was younger, definitely, 0:00:37.400 --> 0:00:40.400 when it came to my career, I had very sharp elbows. 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:43.879 Time and experience have changed that they've smoothed them out. 0:00:43.960 --> 0:00:46.880 I like to think, and today I do not hold 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:49.360 the grudges that I used to. So maybe it is 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:53.960 true that a little bit of age, experience, some pain 0:00:54.520 --> 0:00:57.560 have given me some perspective on how other people think 0:00:57.840 --> 0:01:02.000 and what other people do. And today, somehow that experience 0:01:02.040 --> 0:01:05.160 has made it easier for me to understand why people 0:01:05.200 --> 0:01:08.560 do the things they do, even hurtful things. And I 0:01:08.600 --> 0:01:11.200 try to put myself in their shoes and cut them 0:01:11.240 --> 0:01:14.920 some slack. But the things I have to forgive in 0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:19.240 other people, or even forgiven myself, are small if I 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:23.000 compare them to the entirety of what people experience in 0:01:23.040 --> 0:01:25.920 their whole lives. So the question I want to answer, 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:30.160 are there things are their acts that are simply too 0:01:30.280 --> 0:01:35.240 terrible to forgive? Or is forgiving the truly terrible thing 0:01:35.680 --> 0:01:38.920 the way you liberate yourself from the power that other 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:43.919 person is holding over you. I'm Stephanie Rule, MSNBC anchor 0:01:43.959 --> 0:01:57.080 and NBC News correspondent, and this is Modern Rules. In 0:01:57.200 --> 0:01:59.320 this season of Modern Rules, I'm going to be spending 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:03.400 time on packing the harriest conversations from privilege to political 0:02:03.440 --> 0:02:07.040 correctness to try and figure out how we can navigate 0:02:07.120 --> 0:02:11.399 this changing world and break through to actually talk with 0:02:12.000 --> 0:02:14.720 and learn from the people who disagree with us, and 0:02:14.760 --> 0:02:20.480 maybe just maybe learn something along the way. Today on 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:24.960 Modern Rules, we're talking about forgiveness. Are people's worst actions 0:02:25.320 --> 0:02:29.679 truly fueled by hate? Do they do something terrible because 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:33.079 they're a terrible person? Or do people do bad things 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:37.280 because they're hopeless? If we all had everything we needed, 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:41.680 is it possible that we wouldn't do anything terrible, anything 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:45.639 that required forgiveness? Is it possible that there really are 0:02:45.680 --> 0:02:50.480 no bad people, There's just bad mindsets and bad situations 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:53.520 that drive us into desperate things. That's coming up on 0:02:53.600 --> 0:02:59.359 Modern Rules with guests Nicole Hockley and Alice Johnson. Nicole 0:02:59.440 --> 0:03:02.120 Hockley law us her son Dylan in the Sandy Hook massacre. 0:03:02.800 --> 0:03:05.240 To say it was devastating for her and for so 0:03:05.280 --> 0:03:08.920 many others really doesn't capture the depth of their loss. 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:13.160 But Nicole's reaction almost immediately was to focus on making 0:03:13.200 --> 0:03:16.440 a difference herself, doing what she could do to keep 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:20.880 other parents from having that same awful experience. So she 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:24.040 channeled her grief and her anger into creating a positive 0:03:24.040 --> 0:03:28.560 impact through a remarkable organization, the Sandy Hook Promise. You know, 0:03:28.600 --> 0:03:31.480 it's interesting to talk to Nicole about forgiveness because she 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:36.480 doesn't sugarcoat things. She has got powerful feelings. Forgiveness is 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:43.240 not something that comes easily. What's amazing to me really 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:47.160 is your message and your work and your programs. In 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:51.400 all of our interactions, you're not angry. Every time I'm 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:54.080 with you, I can feel your open heart. Can you 0:03:54.080 --> 0:03:58.640 help me understand your journey and how you got here? Well, 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:00.560 I do want to say I do actually have a 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:05.160 lot of anger in me, just um maybe control it 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:08.040 better because I don't think it's productive, and I think 0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:11.240 it can get in the way of progress, and that's 0:04:11.240 --> 0:04:13.840 really what's most important to me. My anger isn't going 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:17.440 to produce results talking to people, listening to people, trying 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:20.800 to find that common ground. You know, I'm absolutely obsessed 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:23.240 with impact and trying to make a difference in saving 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:27.960 a life, and that means my personal feelings, thoughts or 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:32.760 agendas come second place. So you can be angry or 0:04:32.839 --> 0:04:35.920 you can be unable to forgive, and at the same 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:39.200 time you can progress. I have to, Yeah, I have to, 0:04:39.320 --> 0:04:43.440 because that is that's our mission. It's not about me, um, 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:46.920 it's not about my family. It's about what's the greater good, 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:50.160 and that means putting yourself aside and focused. You know, 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:53.039 we have a saying in our office mission before me, 0:04:53.680 --> 0:04:56.400 and that's what we live every single day. You don't 0:04:56.520 --> 0:04:59.360 come there for yourself. You don't work at Sandy Hook 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:01.360 Promise for your self. You don't support it for yourself. 0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:04.040 You support it for the mission to keep kids safe 0:05:04.279 --> 0:05:07.400 and to stop gun violence. Can you tell me about 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:12.080 your path since oh golly, completely surreal, none of this 0:05:12.160 --> 0:05:16.240 bears any resemblance to my life beforehand. That's for sure. 0:05:16.279 --> 0:05:18.920 I'm still figuring out who I am and who I'm 0:05:18.960 --> 0:05:21.960 evolving into. What was your life before? I was a 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:25.880 marketing and communications director for a healthcare company, so I 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:28.280 know a lot about financial services. I could borrow your 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:31.840 ears off of annuities and investments that I certainly didn't 0:05:31.839 --> 0:05:35.600 know anything about social activism. I had never even been 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:39.000 to d C before I started lobbying Congress. I was 0:05:39.040 --> 0:05:41.760 also just a mom trying to make ends meet and 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:45.159 look after my two boys. They were my priorities, and 0:05:45.279 --> 0:05:47.200 it was a simple life and a very happy life. 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:49.440 I was one of those people that it sounds so 0:05:49.480 --> 0:05:51.280 stupid to say, but it's true. I used to think 0:05:51.320 --> 0:05:53.520 I would just like burst sometimes because I was I 0:05:53.560 --> 0:05:55.760 just had so much joy in me, and I think 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:59.000 I'm a lot more. I don't know grounded or solid 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:03.400 or lenced now. How and when did you become productive? 0:06:04.120 --> 0:06:08.400 Did you go from devastation, grief, paralysis? How does the 0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:12.080 process work? Well? I think the process is totally different 0:06:12.120 --> 0:06:14.320 for each person. So I'm I'm in no way a 0:06:14.320 --> 0:06:19.040 typical person. Um. I started talking about change at Dylan's funeral, 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:22.560 which was a week after the shooting, and and I 0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:26.280 was very honest at his memorial service that I had 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:30.120 no idea what changes were going to come, but that 0:06:30.400 --> 0:06:33.279 I intended to be part of it, uh for Dylan 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:37.279 and for whoever else wanted to be part of that 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:39.520 as well, um that something had to be done so 0:06:39.560 --> 0:06:42.840 that other parents wouldn't be standing in my shoes. The 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:47.000 first year, we did what what everyone does after emaciating, 0:06:47.000 --> 0:06:49.680 we focused on policy. We spent a lot of time 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:52.920 in d C, met some amazing people, met some not 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:55.640 so amazing people who who I don't name as well, 0:06:56.080 --> 0:06:57.880 but spent a lot of time just trying to lobby 0:06:57.920 --> 0:07:00.760 for the simple things, the low hanging fruit, crown checks. 0:07:01.160 --> 0:07:05.200 And after that failed in April, that's when we took 0:07:05.200 --> 0:07:07.960 a hard look at each other and said, if we've 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:10.880 done all that we can around the simple things and 0:07:10.880 --> 0:07:13.360 that hasn't passed them, we're doing this the wrong way. 0:07:13.920 --> 0:07:16.840 So we then went dark for about twelve eighteen months 0:07:17.240 --> 0:07:20.880 while we studied hard. I spent time with mental health experts, 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:26.480 gun safety experts, academic social change experts, law enforcement, absorbing books, 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:29.160 still trying to process grief at the same time, and 0:07:29.200 --> 0:07:31.360 then after doing all of this study for a year 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:33.120 year and a half, and that's when we started to 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:36.240 formulate a new way to try to find the common 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:39.360 ground because we know that, you know, we do have 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:41.480 a lot of divisive issues in this country, but we 0:07:41.560 --> 0:07:44.239 have managed to find the way forward on so many 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:46.640 of them. So you know, what are those levers that 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:48.760 you can pull to create social change? And that's when 0:07:48.760 --> 0:07:51.680 we started focusing on things other than just policy. But 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:53.640 how do you get people engaged in an issue, how 0:07:53.680 --> 0:07:55.800 do you make it personal to them? How do you 0:07:55.960 --> 0:08:00.360 change them and train them on how to be an 0:08:00.360 --> 0:08:03.200 act until it just becomes normal. And that's how you 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:06.400 get real behavioral change, which leads to social change, and 0:08:06.440 --> 0:08:08.840 then policy and politics are a lot easier to follow. 0:08:09.320 --> 0:08:12.360 Gun control seems to be one of the most divided 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:17.400 divisive issues, but you actually go to towns, go to schools, 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:21.560 go to people's homes, are we that divided? Not? Really? 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:25.560 It depends on how you frame a conversation. Because I 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:28.400 think parents or anyone who with children in their lives, 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:32.280 they will do anything to protect that child. For some 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:37.000 people that means owning firearms. For some people that means 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:39.600 ensuring that there are no firearms around. But there's also 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:42.560 this vast swathe in the middle that are like, I 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:45.120 really don't care about guns or you know, whether you 0:08:45.200 --> 0:08:46.960 have guns or don't have guns. I just want to 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:49.440 keep my kids safe. Give me the right tools to 0:08:49.480 --> 0:08:51.520 be able to do that. And when you start the 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:55.160 conversation from that perspective and and actually don't even take 0:08:55.200 --> 0:08:57.680 the word gun into it, you can make a lot 0:08:57.720 --> 0:09:01.160 more progress and build relationships and try and then have 0:09:01.240 --> 0:09:05.760 a conversation about where guns and firearms fit into this equation. 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:08.280 If they do at all, how do you keep pop 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:13.640 What else would I do? There is hope anyway. These 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:17.600 shootings are still happening every day, and they all bring 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:20.160 me to my knees. Um. I think you've seen me 0:09:21.400 --> 0:09:26.319 very soon after some shootings, and you've seen me lose 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:29.520 control completely, um, which is not something I do in public. 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:34.160 But it also just renews my my commitment to making 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:37.480 this happen. Why I continue to be hopeful is because 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:40.880 although we hear so much about the shootings that do occur, 0:09:41.840 --> 0:09:44.920 I'm also hearing about the shootings that don't occur. I'm 0:09:44.960 --> 0:09:47.240 hearing about the towns that you're never going to profile 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:51.000 on any news show because the school shooting didn't happen 0:09:51.320 --> 0:09:55.439 the suicide didn't happen, And that's that's where I'm hopeful, 0:09:55.480 --> 0:09:57.679 because I know it's happening, and I know it's changing. 0:09:58.600 --> 0:10:02.880 Are there are times though, in you lose hope. When 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:05.520 you and I sit across from each other, it's always 0:10:05.640 --> 0:10:09.840 after another shooting. How do you find the will to 0:10:09.960 --> 0:10:12.600 say things are getting better? How do you find how 0:10:12.640 --> 0:10:15.200 are you able to be optimistic through this? How come 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:20.120 anger doesn't overcome you? Well, if anger overcomes me, then 0:10:20.320 --> 0:10:22.960 then the Sandy Hook shooter one. And I can't let 0:10:23.000 --> 0:10:27.280 that happen because there's a greater duty here to protect 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:30.480 my surviving son and builds a good, safe future for 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:34.040 him as well as for others. I don't know whether 0:10:34.080 --> 0:10:37.199 I'm just the eternal optimist or not, but I do 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:39.319 believe that, you know, when when I go around the 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:43.600 country and talking to schools, talking to parents, talking to politicians, 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:47.720 even there is a will to deliver a safer future. 0:10:48.040 --> 0:10:50.680 It's the how that sometimes gets in the way. It's 0:10:50.720 --> 0:10:54.680 the how that people have struggle to find the ways forward. 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:57.640 And if we can find the right ways to engage 0:10:57.720 --> 0:11:01.000 people and give them the tools, I know we're making 0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:04.679 a difference. So why wouldn't I be hopeful and optimistic. 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:08.960 The change is coming. It's it's it's getting through the 0:11:09.000 --> 0:11:14.120 how and then deciding the win. Hold on a second, 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:16.600 because we have so much more to talk about. We'll 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:21.199 be right back after a quick break. Welcome back to 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:26.240 modern rules. I asked you not long ago if the 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:29.840 gun manufacturer, if anyone from the company ever reached out 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:36.000 to you to apologize. Yeah, no, Yah, How could that be? 0:11:36.920 --> 0:11:39.480 I don't know, I would guess because they would feel 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:42.240 if they apologize, that they've been admitting some form of 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:46.240 guilt and they can't do that if there's a difference 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:51.280 between compassion though, and I think that was what's lacking there. 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:55.000 On the other side, can you speak about the last 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:58.560 few years and the support that has built around you 0:11:58.679 --> 0:12:01.439 from people that you didn't know, or the strength of 0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:04.760 Sandy hook promise? Has it has? Has? Has the power 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:10.120 of your reach surprised you? Yes? And no. On the 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:15.120 yes side, I mean my house was filled with letters 0:12:15.400 --> 0:12:20.200 and items from people around the around the world who 0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:23.200 just wanted to outreach and let me and my husband 0:12:23.200 --> 0:12:26.319 know that they were sorry for our loss. And that's 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:29.680 amazing and that's something that I've cataloged for Jake because 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:31.640 I want him to always remember that there's a lot 0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:34.600 of good in the world and that people really do 0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:40.120 care and help each other. My personal circle of friends 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:45.439 um grew massively and then shrunk massively. It was too 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:49.120 hard for people. I definitely make some people uncomfortable. I 0:12:49.160 --> 0:12:51.880 am not your I am not the dinner party guests 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:55.560 that you want to invite me. People don't know where 0:12:55.600 --> 0:12:59.439 to look sometimes, Uh, there there are some people that 0:13:00.200 --> 0:13:02.360 you know. For some people, I'm I'm a parent's worst 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:06.000 nightmare because I've lost my child in a way that 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:08.920 they cannot wrap their heads around and don't want to 0:13:09.559 --> 0:13:12.600 face that even idea, that possibility that it could have 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:15.200 been them, And I get it, and that can be 0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:17.439 awkward because people don't know what to say, they don't 0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:19.640 know how to act. Um. They want to hug me, 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:22.040 which I always left them, But then it's like where 0:13:22.080 --> 0:13:24.320 do you go from there? Even meeting people for the 0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:27.120 first time now in social occasions, it's like normally, if 0:13:27.120 --> 0:13:28.960 you're going out with someone, yeah, they'll be like, oh, 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:30.960 and what do you do for a living? They know 0:13:31.040 --> 0:13:35.080 who I am beforehand, so there's no normal conversation and 0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:37.280 they either want to talk about Dylan, or you could 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:40.200 go hours and there's no even ask about So, do 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:42.559 you have children? It was that hard for you to 0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:47.079 parent another child because your identity is so tied to 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:49.559 Dylan and Sandy Hook it is. But what I make 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:55.040 sure with Jake is that my identity, my identity publicly 0:13:55.120 --> 0:13:58.320 might be very focused on Dylan, but privately it is 0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:02.120 absolutely balanced between Dylan and Jake. When I'm with Jake, 0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:06.760 it's I'm a present for him and his needs. And 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:10.080 you know, the house doesn't have tons of just photos 0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:12.599 of Dylan. And I've spoken to other parents who have 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:16.000 lost children in gun violence and seen the same things, 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:17.800 the paintings and the pictures all over the house, and 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:20.880 I have to remind them don't forget about your surviving 0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:23.880 child as well, because if you make your life solely 0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:26.360 about the one who died, what what message are you 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:29.400 inadvertently giving to the one who survived? Are you ever 0:14:29.520 --> 0:14:34.040 just pissed? Are you ever angry at other mothers, at 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:38.920 other families, at random events because this didn't happen to them. Never, 0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:42.760 never angry because it didn't happen to them. No, never, ever, ever. 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:46.400 I get angry sometimes and you know, I work to 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:49.960 control it. If sometimes if it's just really awkward, I 0:14:49.960 --> 0:14:52.760 get angry that I'm in this situation in the first place. 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:57.800 I get angry that I don't have a normal life anymore. 0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:00.720 I get angry that, you know, even if I'm grocery shopping, 0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:02.840 I don't look around at the people around me because 0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:06.040 sometimes I just, you know, I don't want to be known. 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:09.400 I just want to be me. I got angry when, 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:12.880 you know, after my divorce, trying to then start dating 0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:15.360 again and it's even like, you know, do you tell 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:19.200 someone who you are or do you not? And it's 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:22.800 that awkward conversation. I mean, try dating when you're a 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:25.800 Sandy hook parent. It's not exactly you're it's not great 0:15:25.840 --> 0:15:29.720 to do it. Went on a lot, a lot, a 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:35.840 lot of first dates that never became second dates. Um, 0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:38.360 and then one guy stuck and he's like, why on 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:39.960 earth are you with me? And I'm because you're You're 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:43.440 the normal in my life. And he sees a sweetheart, 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:47.200 did you want to leave Newtown because you do drive 0:15:47.240 --> 0:15:49.240 by the same school, you do go to the same 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:53.280 grocery store. Yeah, so Ian and I Dylan's dad, Dylan 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:56.720 and Jake's dad. Right after the shooting, we had thought 0:15:56.720 --> 0:16:00.840 about going back to England where we've been living, and 0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:02.720 all of our friends and family there were like, just 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:05.000 come back. What are you doing in this crazy place 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:08.120 that this could happen? And it was tempting. But at 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:11.040 the same time, even then, early on, we knew we 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:14.240 had chosen new Town for a reason. And you can't escape, 0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:16.960 you can't run away because it's still it's still with 0:16:17.040 --> 0:16:20.400 you wherever you go. And um, I knew I had 0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:22.960 a job to do and the job is here in America, 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:24.800 that it's here in Newtown. How much time do you 0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:28.440 devote to being angry at the person who did this? 0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:33.960 Not as much anymore. I won't lie. I still have 0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:39.720 anger hate him. Hate is a really strong word. Um 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:42.400 he's dead, so there's nothing I can do about that. 0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:47.440 Do you hate his mother? I don't understand how his 0:16:47.480 --> 0:16:50.280 mother could have allowed him to have all that access 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:54.040 to firearms. And I don't understand how his mother didn't 0:16:54.040 --> 0:17:00.920 get him help. Um I I don't think I hate them, 0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:05.120 but um I have not forgiven them. But you don't 0:17:05.119 --> 0:17:09.040 need to forgive them to move on. I don't think so. 0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:12.000 I know some people do and I respect you know, 0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:14.800 different forms of faith, UM, that are allowed. You know 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:17.040 that that they have that within them to do that. 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:21.720 I'm still angry at God, and UM, I'm not in 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:24.840 a space of forgiveness because I think what was done, 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:28.959 what is unforgivable? Um, how can how? I don't know 0:17:29.000 --> 0:17:34.240 how I can forgive someone who made a choice, UM, 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:37.560 to take firearms to a school and kill innocence in 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:42.280 that way, We're going to be right back after a 0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:50.720 quick break, welcome back to modern rules. Alice Johnson was 0:17:50.760 --> 0:17:53.320 serving a life sentence in prison. One none other than 0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:57.040 Kim Kardashian took her story to the President and convinced 0:17:57.119 --> 0:17:59.680 him to grant Alice a pardon. She had already been 0:17:59.680 --> 0:18:03.119 in pray and for over twenty years. Alice's outlook on life, 0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:06.479 shaped by her experience behind bars, is surprising and I 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:10.520 think it's inspiring. As she tells it, forgiveness is a 0:18:10.600 --> 0:18:16.240 kind of freedom, at least for her. I had a 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:18.600 chance to read your book. I think lots of people 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:21.560 know what's happened to you, but they don't know what 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:24.040 lad you here. So if you wouldn't mind, can you 0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:28.439 give us your story? Yes, there was there was a 0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:31.720 sequence of events that really lay it to me making 0:18:31.760 --> 0:18:37.200 the terrible mistake to get involved in criminal activities. I'd 0:18:37.240 --> 0:18:41.879 lost my job of ten years with FedEx, I was 0:18:42.000 --> 0:18:45.520 taking care of five children as a single mother, totally 0:18:45.560 --> 0:18:50.840 without any help, and bills were piling up. I was 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:55.679 not making really good decisions. Sometimes when you're desperate, you 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:58.080 do things that if you were to think about it 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:01.000 later on, you wouldn't do them. If I could go 0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:04.000 back in time and talk to myself, I would definitely 0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:08.359 tell myself run, don't walk with Run from anything that 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:12.240 looks illegal. An offer was made to me to become 0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:17.040 involved in a drug conspiracy. My role would be to 0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:22.359 pass along telephone messages. I was the go between, and 0:19:22.880 --> 0:19:26.480 I did that. I made that terrible, terrible decision to 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:31.280 do that. I was arrested in what became a drug 0:19:31.400 --> 0:19:35.800 sting and I made the decision to go to trial. 0:19:36.520 --> 0:19:41.400 I was offered three to five years, but decided from 0:19:41.680 --> 0:19:45.520 the advice of my attorney. My family scraped together the 0:19:45.560 --> 0:19:48.960 money to pay who we thought was a very uh 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:51.800 season attorney, and he told me that I had a 0:19:51.880 --> 0:19:55.160 very good case because they had not gotten me with 0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:59.920 any drugs or any money. And plus my financial condition 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:05.439 did not show a person who could fit the description 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:10.800 of a drug queen pin or king pin. I was eventually, 0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:15.880 after the six week trial, convicted of um drug conspiracy 0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:19.440 about an eleven person jury, and as a first time 0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:23.760 non violent offender, I was sentenced to life without parole 0:20:23.960 --> 0:20:27.320 without the possibility of parole because there is no parole 0:20:27.440 --> 0:20:34.080 in the federal system. After being incarcerated, I've just made 0:20:34.080 --> 0:20:38.080 some decisions that I'm not going to allow this to 0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:41.320 literally take my life. I was told the only way 0:20:41.320 --> 0:20:43.600 that I would leave prison would be as a corpse, 0:20:44.280 --> 0:20:47.880 but despite that, I still was not going to allow 0:20:47.960 --> 0:20:51.320 prison to define who I am as a person. As 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:55.040 an individual, I did a lot of things Stephanie in prison, 0:20:55.280 --> 0:20:59.040 I set with people who were in hospice care. I 0:20:59.480 --> 0:21:04.480 worked with the this first ever Special Olympics. In prison, 0:21:04.560 --> 0:21:10.040 I continued to fight for my freedom through various motions, 0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:15.000 but everything was denied. I applied for clemency three times, 0:21:15.000 --> 0:21:19.080 and each time I was denied. But this very last 0:21:19.400 --> 0:21:25.399 time that I applied for clemency in two thousand and eighteen, well, 0:21:25.480 --> 0:21:28.880 let me back up just a little bit. After fighting 0:21:28.920 --> 0:21:32.159 so hard, my family also was involved in fighting for 0:21:32.280 --> 0:21:36.840 my freedom that did vigils outside the White House. My 0:21:36.960 --> 0:21:41.000 daughter started a petition on change dot org that garnered 0:21:41.000 --> 0:21:44.919 over two hundred and seventy thousand signatures of people that 0:21:45.000 --> 0:21:48.200 were signing when they heard about my story. Who was 0:21:48.560 --> 0:21:52.080 we're signing petitions for my freedom? My warden wrote a 0:21:52.160 --> 0:21:55.560 letter from my Freedom talking about the type of person 0:21:55.680 --> 0:21:59.280 that I was in prison. My captain at the prison 0:21:59.440 --> 0:22:02.400 case man, nit, you're my employer. I had a lot 0:22:02.480 --> 0:22:07.199 of support from the political side. Also, three members of 0:22:07.280 --> 0:22:11.360 Congress wrote letters on my behalf. I had religious leaders 0:22:11.720 --> 0:22:15.520 in double A c P president of our chapter in 0:22:15.720 --> 0:22:21.560 Dissola County, Mississippi, wrote a great letter acting for my release. 0:22:21.720 --> 0:22:25.280 But somehow I was one that seemed to have just 0:22:25.280 --> 0:22:28.520 slipped through the cracks when you were sentenced to prison, 0:22:28.560 --> 0:22:32.119 When you were convicted, do you think the eyes of 0:22:32.160 --> 0:22:37.359 the law consider those who have privileged and those who don't. 0:22:37.920 --> 0:22:42.680 The situation that you were in, right, My lawyer told 0:22:42.680 --> 0:22:45.040 me that I had a really good chance and that 0:22:45.160 --> 0:22:48.360 he would recommend that I go to trial. Even when 0:22:48.400 --> 0:22:52.040 the jury was hung and another offer was sent to me, 0:22:52.119 --> 0:22:55.240 he told me, I basically don't take it. I think 0:22:55.280 --> 0:22:58.320 we've got a really good chance of winning this. But 0:22:58.440 --> 0:23:02.640 the thing, Stephanie, is that I know ignorance is no excuse, 0:23:02.720 --> 0:23:08.400 but I never knew that a life sentence was even possible. 0:23:07.840 --> 0:23:11.280 You know what, Ignorance might not be an excuse, but 0:23:11.480 --> 0:23:14.879 that's why, because you didn't understand the situation, you hired 0:23:14.920 --> 0:23:19.840 a lawyer, and so you trusted that lawyer. Well, he 0:23:20.000 --> 0:23:22.800 still told me that, um, he was going to fight 0:23:23.480 --> 0:23:25.840 my case and he felt that I had a good 0:23:25.960 --> 0:23:29.480 chance to win at appeal. He said that you probably 0:23:29.520 --> 0:23:33.800 won't spend more than thirteen months family. When he came 0:23:33.840 --> 0:23:37.359 to visit me and Stephanie, this was this was a 0:23:37.440 --> 0:23:40.560 really strange thing about all of the things that took 0:23:40.560 --> 0:23:43.679 place with me and my attorney. It was almost like 0:23:43.760 --> 0:23:46.720 he was apologizing to me. I thought he was coming 0:23:46.760 --> 0:23:49.720 to visit to give me more hope, that he was 0:23:49.760 --> 0:23:52.880 going to continue to fight because we had lost the appeal, 0:23:53.520 --> 0:23:55.879 and said he came to give me an apology to 0:23:55.960 --> 0:23:57.840 let me know that he would be that he would 0:23:57.880 --> 0:24:00.040 not represent me, and he would do nothing else to 0:24:00.080 --> 0:24:02.959 help me and to do whatever I needed to do 0:24:03.040 --> 0:24:07.960 to him. Do you think he was sorry. I think 0:24:08.040 --> 0:24:11.400 he was sorry for I don't know. You know, I've 0:24:11.440 --> 0:24:16.400 I've pondered this so many times, uh doing my incarceration. 0:24:16.680 --> 0:24:19.760 What was the meaning of what he said to me? 0:24:20.600 --> 0:24:23.679