Speaker 1: You're listening to Modern Rules, a production of MSNBC and
Speaker 1: I heart Radio. I don't understand how his mother could
Speaker 1: have allowed him to have all that access to firearms,
Speaker 1: and I don't understand how his mother didn't get him help.
Speaker 1: I don't think I hate them, but um I have
Speaker 1: not forgiven them. In order for me to move forward.
Speaker 1: I could not allow bitterness and unforgiveness to pause on me,
Speaker 1: because if I did, that meant that I was giving
Speaker 1: someone else control over my life. When I was younger, definitely,
Speaker 1: when it came to my career, I had very sharp elbows.
Speaker 1: Time and experience have changed that they've smoothed them out.
Speaker 1: I like to think, and today I do not hold
Speaker 1: the grudges that I used to. So maybe it is
Speaker 1: true that a little bit of age, experience, some pain
Speaker 1: have given me some perspective on how other people think
Speaker 1: and what other people do. And today, somehow that experience
Speaker 1: has made it easier for me to understand why people
Speaker 1: do the things they do, even hurtful things. And I
Speaker 1: try to put myself in their shoes and cut them
Speaker 1: some slack. But the things I have to forgive in
Speaker 1: other people, or even forgiven myself, are small if I
Speaker 1: compare them to the entirety of what people experience in
Speaker 1: their whole lives. So the question I want to answer,
Speaker 1: are there things are their acts that are simply too
Speaker 1: terrible to forgive? Or is forgiving the truly terrible thing
Speaker 1: the way you liberate yourself from the power that other
Speaker 1: person is holding over you. I'm Stephanie Rule, MSNBC anchor
Speaker 1: and NBC News correspondent, and this is Modern Rules. In
Speaker 1: this season of Modern Rules, I'm going to be spending
Speaker 1: time on packing the harriest conversations from privilege to political
Speaker 1: correctness to try and figure out how we can navigate
Speaker 1: this changing world and break through to actually talk with
Speaker 1: and learn from the people who disagree with us, and
Speaker 1: maybe just maybe learn something along the way. Today on
Speaker 1: Modern Rules, we're talking about forgiveness. Are people's worst actions
Speaker 1: truly fueled by hate? Do they do something terrible because
Speaker 1: they're a terrible person? Or do people do bad things
Speaker 1: because they're hopeless? If we all had everything we needed,
Speaker 1: is it possible that we wouldn't do anything terrible, anything
Speaker 1: that required forgiveness? Is it possible that there really are
Speaker 1: no bad people, There's just bad mindsets and bad situations
Speaker 1: that drive us into desperate things. That's coming up on
Speaker 1: Modern Rules with guests Nicole Hockley and Alice Johnson. Nicole
Speaker 1: Hockley law us her son Dylan in the Sandy Hook massacre.
Speaker 1: To say it was devastating for her and for so
Speaker 1: many others really doesn't capture the depth of their loss.
Speaker 1: But Nicole's reaction almost immediately was to focus on making
Speaker 1: a difference herself, doing what she could do to keep
Speaker 1: other parents from having that same awful experience. So she
Speaker 1: channeled her grief and her anger into creating a positive
Speaker 1: impact through a remarkable organization, the Sandy Hook Promise. You know,
Speaker 1: it's interesting to talk to Nicole about forgiveness because she
Speaker 1: doesn't sugarcoat things. She has got powerful feelings. Forgiveness is
Speaker 1: not something that comes easily. What's amazing to me really
Speaker 1: is your message and your work and your programs. In
Speaker 1: all of our interactions, you're not angry. Every time I'm
Speaker 1: with you, I can feel your open heart. Can you
Speaker 1: help me understand your journey and how you got here? Well,
Speaker 1: I do want to say I do actually have a
Speaker 1: lot of anger in me, just um maybe control it
Speaker 1: better because I don't think it's productive, and I think
Speaker 1: it can get in the way of progress, and that's
Speaker 1: really what's most important to me. My anger isn't going
Speaker 1: to produce results talking to people, listening to people, trying
Speaker 1: to find that common ground. You know, I'm absolutely obsessed
Speaker 1: with impact and trying to make a difference in saving
Speaker 1: a life, and that means my personal feelings, thoughts or
Speaker 1: agendas come second place. So you can be angry or
Speaker 1: you can be unable to forgive, and at the same
Speaker 1: time you can progress. I have to, Yeah, I have to,
Speaker 1: because that is that's our mission. It's not about me, um,
Speaker 1: it's not about my family. It's about what's the greater good,
Speaker 1: and that means putting yourself aside and focused. You know,
Speaker 1: we have a saying in our office mission before me,
Speaker 1: and that's what we live every single day. You don't
Speaker 1: come there for yourself. You don't work at Sandy Hook
Speaker 1: Promise for your self. You don't support it for yourself.
Speaker 1: You support it for the mission to keep kids safe
Speaker 1: and to stop gun violence. Can you tell me about
Speaker 1: your path since oh golly, completely surreal, none of this
Speaker 1: bears any resemblance to my life beforehand. That's for sure.
Speaker 1: I'm still figuring out who I am and who I'm
Speaker 1: evolving into. What was your life before? I was a
Speaker 1: marketing and communications director for a healthcare company, so I
Speaker 1: know a lot about financial services. I could borrow your
Speaker 1: ears off of annuities and investments that I certainly didn't
Speaker 1: know anything about social activism. I had never even been
Speaker 1: to d C before I started lobbying Congress. I was
Speaker 1: also just a mom trying to make ends meet and
Speaker 1: look after my two boys. They were my priorities, and
Speaker 1: it was a simple life and a very happy life.
Speaker 1: I was one of those people that it sounds so
Speaker 1: stupid to say, but it's true. I used to think
Speaker 1: I would just like burst sometimes because I was I
Speaker 1: just had so much joy in me, and I think
Speaker 1: I'm a lot more. I don't know grounded or solid
Speaker 1: or lenced now. How and when did you become productive?
Speaker 1: Did you go from devastation, grief, paralysis? How does the
Speaker 1: process work? Well? I think the process is totally different
Speaker 1: for each person. So I'm I'm in no way a
Speaker 1: typical person. Um. I started talking about change at Dylan's funeral,
Speaker 1: which was a week after the shooting, and and I
Speaker 1: was very honest at his memorial service that I had
Speaker 1: no idea what changes were going to come, but that
Speaker 1: I intended to be part of it, uh for Dylan
Speaker 1: and for whoever else wanted to be part of that
Speaker 1: as well, um that something had to be done so
Speaker 1: that other parents wouldn't be standing in my shoes. The
Speaker 1: first year, we did what what everyone does after emaciating,
Speaker 1: we focused on policy. We spent a lot of time
Speaker 1: in d C, met some amazing people, met some not
Speaker 1: so amazing people who who I don't name as well,
Speaker 1: but spent a lot of time just trying to lobby
Speaker 1: for the simple things, the low hanging fruit, crown checks.
Speaker 1: And after that failed in April, that's when we took
Speaker 1: a hard look at each other and said, if we've
Speaker 1: done all that we can around the simple things and
Speaker 1: that hasn't passed them, we're doing this the wrong way.
Speaker 1: So we then went dark for about twelve eighteen months
Speaker 1: while we studied hard. I spent time with mental health experts,
Speaker 1: gun safety experts, academic social change experts, law enforcement, absorbing books,
Speaker 1: still trying to process grief at the same time, and
Speaker 1: then after doing all of this study for a year
Speaker 1: year and a half, and that's when we started to
Speaker 1: formulate a new way to try to find the common
Speaker 1: ground because we know that, you know, we do have
Speaker 1: a lot of divisive issues in this country, but we
Speaker 1: have managed to find the way forward on so many
Speaker 1: of them. So you know, what are those levers that
Speaker 1: you can pull to create social change? And that's when
Speaker 1: we started focusing on things other than just policy. But
Speaker 1: how do you get people engaged in an issue, how
Speaker 1: do you make it personal to them? How do you
Speaker 1: change them and train them on how to be an
Speaker 1: act until it just becomes normal. And that's how you
Speaker 1: get real behavioral change, which leads to social change, and
Speaker 1: then policy and politics are a lot easier to follow.
Speaker 1: Gun control seems to be one of the most divided
Speaker 1: divisive issues, but you actually go to towns, go to schools,
Speaker 1: go to people's homes, are we that divided? Not? Really?
Speaker 1: It depends on how you frame a conversation. Because I
Speaker 1: think parents or anyone who with children in their lives,
Speaker 1: they will do anything to protect that child. For some
Speaker 1: people that means owning firearms. For some people that means
Speaker 1: ensuring that there are no firearms around. But there's also
Speaker 1: this vast swathe in the middle that are like, I
Speaker 1: really don't care about guns or you know, whether you
Speaker 1: have guns or don't have guns. I just want to
Speaker 1: keep my kids safe. Give me the right tools to
Speaker 1: be able to do that. And when you start the
Speaker 1: conversation from that perspective and and actually don't even take
Speaker 1: the word gun into it, you can make a lot
Speaker 1: more progress and build relationships and try and then have
Speaker 1: a conversation about where guns and firearms fit into this equation.
Speaker 1: If they do at all, how do you keep pop
Speaker 1: What else would I do? There is hope anyway. These
Speaker 1: shootings are still happening every day, and they all bring
Speaker 1: me to my knees. Um. I think you've seen me
Speaker 1: very soon after some shootings, and you've seen me lose
Speaker 1: control completely, um, which is not something I do in public.
Speaker 1: But it also just renews my my commitment to making
Speaker 1: this happen. Why I continue to be hopeful is because
Speaker 1: although we hear so much about the shootings that do occur,
Speaker 1: I'm also hearing about the shootings that don't occur. I'm
Speaker 1: hearing about the towns that you're never going to profile
Speaker 1: on any news show because the school shooting didn't happen
Speaker 1: the suicide didn't happen, And that's that's where I'm hopeful,
Speaker 1: because I know it's happening, and I know it's changing.
Speaker 1: Are there are times though, in you lose hope. When
Speaker 1: you and I sit across from each other, it's always
Speaker 1: after another shooting. How do you find the will to
Speaker 1: say things are getting better? How do you find how
Speaker 1: are you able to be optimistic through this? How come
Speaker 1: anger doesn't overcome you? Well, if anger overcomes me, then
Speaker 1: then the Sandy Hook shooter one. And I can't let
Speaker 1: that happen because there's a greater duty here to protect
Speaker 1: my surviving son and builds a good, safe future for
Speaker 1: him as well as for others. I don't know whether
Speaker 1: I'm just the eternal optimist or not, but I do
Speaker 1: believe that, you know, when when I go around the
Speaker 1: country and talking to schools, talking to parents, talking to politicians,
Speaker 1: even there is a will to deliver a safer future.
Speaker 1: It's the how that sometimes gets in the way. It's
Speaker 1: the how that people have struggle to find the ways forward.
Speaker 1: And if we can find the right ways to engage
Speaker 1: people and give them the tools, I know we're making
Speaker 1: a difference. So why wouldn't I be hopeful and optimistic.
Speaker 1: The change is coming. It's it's it's getting through the
Speaker 1: how and then deciding the win. Hold on a second,
Speaker 1: because we have so much more to talk about. We'll
Speaker 1: be right back after a quick break. Welcome back to
Speaker 1: modern rules. I asked you not long ago if the
Speaker 1: gun manufacturer, if anyone from the company ever reached out
Speaker 1: to you to apologize. Yeah, no, Yah, How could that be?
Speaker 1: I don't know, I would guess because they would feel
Speaker 1: if they apologize, that they've been admitting some form of
Speaker 1: guilt and they can't do that if there's a difference
Speaker 1: between compassion though, and I think that was what's lacking there.
Speaker 1: On the other side, can you speak about the last
Speaker 1: few years and the support that has built around you
Speaker 1: from people that you didn't know, or the strength of
Speaker 1: Sandy hook promise? Has it has? Has? Has the power
Speaker 1: of your reach surprised you? Yes? And no. On the
Speaker 1: yes side, I mean my house was filled with letters
Speaker 1: and items from people around the around the world who
Speaker 1: just wanted to outreach and let me and my husband
Speaker 1: know that they were sorry for our loss. And that's
Speaker 1: amazing and that's something that I've cataloged for Jake because
Speaker 1: I want him to always remember that there's a lot
Speaker 1: of good in the world and that people really do
Speaker 1: care and help each other. My personal circle of friends
Speaker 1: um grew massively and then shrunk massively. It was too
Speaker 1: hard for people. I definitely make some people uncomfortable. I
Speaker 1: am not your I am not the dinner party guests
Speaker 1: that you want to invite me. People don't know where
Speaker 1: to look sometimes, Uh, there there are some people that
Speaker 1: you know. For some people, I'm I'm a parent's worst
Speaker 1: nightmare because I've lost my child in a way that
Speaker 1: they cannot wrap their heads around and don't want to
Speaker 1: face that even idea, that possibility that it could have
Speaker 1: been them, And I get it, and that can be
Speaker 1: awkward because people don't know what to say, they don't
Speaker 1: know how to act. Um. They want to hug me,
Speaker 1: which I always left them, But then it's like where
Speaker 1: do you go from there? Even meeting people for the
Speaker 1: first time now in social occasions, it's like normally, if
Speaker 1: you're going out with someone, yeah, they'll be like, oh,
Speaker 1: and what do you do for a living? They know
Speaker 1: who I am beforehand, so there's no normal conversation and
Speaker 1: they either want to talk about Dylan, or you could
Speaker 1: go hours and there's no even ask about So, do
Speaker 1: you have children? It was that hard for you to
Speaker 1: parent another child because your identity is so tied to
Speaker 1: Dylan and Sandy Hook it is. But what I make
Speaker 1: sure with Jake is that my identity, my identity publicly
Speaker 1: might be very focused on Dylan, but privately it is
Speaker 1: absolutely balanced between Dylan and Jake. When I'm with Jake,
Speaker 1: it's I'm a present for him and his needs. And
Speaker 1: you know, the house doesn't have tons of just photos
Speaker 1: of Dylan. And I've spoken to other parents who have
Speaker 1: lost children in gun violence and seen the same things,
Speaker 1: the paintings and the pictures all over the house, and
Speaker 1: I have to remind them don't forget about your surviving
Speaker 1: child as well, because if you make your life solely
Speaker 1: about the one who died, what what message are you
Speaker 1: inadvertently giving to the one who survived? Are you ever
Speaker 1: just pissed? Are you ever angry at other mothers, at
Speaker 1: other families, at random events because this didn't happen to them. Never,
Speaker 1: never angry because it didn't happen to them. No, never, ever, ever.
Speaker 1: I get angry sometimes and you know, I work to
Speaker 1: control it. If sometimes if it's just really awkward, I
Speaker 1: get angry that I'm in this situation in the first place.
Speaker 1: I get angry that I don't have a normal life anymore.
Speaker 1: I get angry that, you know, even if I'm grocery shopping,
Speaker 1: I don't look around at the people around me because
Speaker 1: sometimes I just, you know, I don't want to be known.
Speaker 1: I just want to be me. I got angry when,
Speaker 1: you know, after my divorce, trying to then start dating
Speaker 1: again and it's even like, you know, do you tell
Speaker 1: someone who you are or do you not? And it's
Speaker 1: that awkward conversation. I mean, try dating when you're a
Speaker 1: Sandy hook parent. It's not exactly you're it's not great
Speaker 1: to do it. Went on a lot, a lot, a
Speaker 1: lot of first dates that never became second dates. Um,
Speaker 1: and then one guy stuck and he's like, why on
Speaker 1: earth are you with me? And I'm because you're You're
Speaker 1: the normal in my life. And he sees a sweetheart,
Speaker 1: did you want to leave Newtown because you do drive
Speaker 1: by the same school, you do go to the same
Speaker 1: grocery store. Yeah, so Ian and I Dylan's dad, Dylan
Speaker 1: and Jake's dad. Right after the shooting, we had thought
Speaker 1: about going back to England where we've been living, and
Speaker 1: all of our friends and family there were like, just
Speaker 1: come back. What are you doing in this crazy place
Speaker 1: that this could happen? And it was tempting. But at
Speaker 1: the same time, even then, early on, we knew we
Speaker 1: had chosen new Town for a reason. And you can't escape,
Speaker 1: you can't run away because it's still it's still with
Speaker 1: you wherever you go. And um, I knew I had
Speaker 1: a job to do and the job is here in America,
Speaker 1: that it's here in Newtown. How much time do you
Speaker 1: devote to being angry at the person who did this?
Speaker 1: Not as much anymore. I won't lie. I still have
Speaker 1: anger hate him. Hate is a really strong word. Um
Speaker 1: he's dead, so there's nothing I can do about that.
Speaker 1: Do you hate his mother? I don't understand how his
Speaker 1: mother could have allowed him to have all that access
Speaker 1: to firearms. And I don't understand how his mother didn't
Speaker 1: get him help. Um I I don't think I hate them,
Speaker 1: but um I have not forgiven them. But you don't
Speaker 1: need to forgive them to move on. I don't think so.
Speaker 1: I know some people do and I respect you know,
Speaker 1: different forms of faith, UM, that are allowed. You know
Speaker 1: that that they have that within them to do that.
Speaker 1: I'm still angry at God, and UM, I'm not in
Speaker 1: a space of forgiveness because I think what was done,
Speaker 1: what is unforgivable? Um, how can how? I don't know
Speaker 1: how I can forgive someone who made a choice, UM,
Speaker 1: to take firearms to a school and kill innocence in
Speaker 1: that way, We're going to be right back after a
Speaker 1: quick break, welcome back to modern rules. Alice Johnson was
Speaker 1: serving a life sentence in prison. One none other than
Speaker 1: Kim Kardashian took her story to the President and convinced
Speaker 1: him to grant Alice a pardon. She had already been
Speaker 1: in pray and for over twenty years. Alice's outlook on life,
Speaker 1: shaped by her experience behind bars, is surprising and I
Speaker 1: think it's inspiring. As she tells it, forgiveness is a
Speaker 1: kind of freedom, at least for her. I had a
Speaker 1: chance to read your book. I think lots of people
Speaker 1: know what's happened to you, but they don't know what
Speaker 1: lad you here. So if you wouldn't mind, can you
Speaker 1: give us your story? Yes, there was there was a
Speaker 1: sequence of events that really lay it to me making
Speaker 1: the terrible mistake to get involved in criminal activities. I'd
Speaker 1: lost my job of ten years with FedEx, I was
Speaker 1: taking care of five children as a single mother, totally
Speaker 1: without any help, and bills were piling up. I was
Speaker 1: not making really good decisions. Sometimes when you're desperate, you
Speaker 1: do things that if you were to think about it
Speaker 1: later on, you wouldn't do them. If I could go
Speaker 1: back in time and talk to myself, I would definitely
Speaker 1: tell myself run, don't walk with Run from anything that
Speaker 1: looks illegal. An offer was made to me to become
Speaker 1: involved in a drug conspiracy. My role would be to
Speaker 1: pass along telephone messages. I was the go between, and
Speaker 1: I did that. I made that terrible, terrible decision to
Speaker 1: do that. I was arrested in what became a drug
Speaker 1: sting and I made the decision to go to trial.
Speaker 1: I was offered three to five years, but decided from
Speaker 1: the advice of my attorney. My family scraped together the
Speaker 1: money to pay who we thought was a very uh
Speaker 1: season attorney, and he told me that I had a
Speaker 1: very good case because they had not gotten me with
Speaker 1: any drugs or any money. And plus my financial condition
Speaker 1: did not show a person who could fit the description
Speaker 1: of a drug queen pin or king pin. I was eventually,
Speaker 1: after the six week trial, convicted of um drug conspiracy
Speaker 1: about an eleven person jury, and as a first time
Speaker 1: non violent offender, I was sentenced to life without parole
Speaker 1: without the possibility of parole because there is no parole
Speaker 1: in the federal system. After being incarcerated, I've just made
Speaker 1: some decisions that I'm not going to allow this to
Speaker 1: literally take my life. I was told the only way
Speaker 1: that I would leave prison would be as a corpse,
Speaker 1: but despite that, I still was not going to allow
Speaker 1: prison to define who I am as a person. As
Speaker 1: an individual, I did a lot of things Stephanie in prison,
Speaker 1: I set with people who were in hospice care. I
Speaker 1: worked with the this first ever Special Olympics. In prison,
Speaker 1: I continued to fight for my freedom through various motions,
Speaker 1: but everything was denied. I applied for clemency three times,
Speaker 1: and each time I was denied. But this very last
Speaker 1: time that I applied for clemency in two thousand and eighteen, well,
Speaker 1: let me back up just a little bit. After fighting
Speaker 1: so hard, my family also was involved in fighting for
Speaker 1: my freedom that did vigils outside the White House. My
Speaker 1: daughter started a petition on change dot org that garnered
Speaker 1: over two hundred and seventy thousand signatures of people that
Speaker 1: were signing when they heard about my story. Who was
Speaker 1: we're signing petitions for my freedom? My warden wrote a
Speaker 1: letter from my Freedom talking about the type of person
Speaker 1: that I was in prison. My captain at the prison
Speaker 1: case man, nit, you're my employer. I had a lot
Speaker 1: of support from the political side. Also, three members of
Speaker 1: Congress wrote letters on my behalf. I had religious leaders
Speaker 1: in double A c P president of our chapter in
Speaker 1: Dissola County, Mississippi, wrote a great letter acting for my release.
Speaker 1: But somehow I was one that seemed to have just
Speaker 1: slipped through the cracks when you were sentenced to prison,
Speaker 1: When you were convicted, do you think the eyes of
Speaker 1: the law consider those who have privileged and those who don't.
Speaker 1: The situation that you were in, right, My lawyer told
Speaker 1: me that I had a really good chance and that
Speaker 1: he would recommend that I go to trial. Even when
Speaker 1: the jury was hung and another offer was sent to me,
Speaker 1: he told me, I basically don't take it. I think
Speaker 1: we've got a really good chance of winning this. But
Speaker 1: the thing, Stephanie, is that I know ignorance is no excuse,
Speaker 1: but I never knew that a life sentence was even possible.
Speaker 1: You know what, Ignorance might not be an excuse, but
Speaker 1: that's why, because you didn't understand the situation, you hired
Speaker 1: a lawyer, and so you trusted that lawyer. Well, he
Speaker 1: still told me that, um, he was going to fight
Speaker 1: my case and he felt that I had a good
Speaker 1: chance to win at appeal. He said that you probably
Speaker 1: won't spend more than thirteen months family. When he came
Speaker 1: to visit me and Stephanie, this was this was a
Speaker 1: really strange thing about all of the things that took
Speaker 1: place with me and my attorney. It was almost like
Speaker 1: he was apologizing to me. I thought he was coming
Speaker 1: to visit to give me more hope, that he was
Speaker 1: going to continue to fight because we had lost the appeal,
Speaker 1: and said he came to give me an apology to
Speaker 1: let me know that he would be that he would
Speaker 1: not represent me, and he would do nothing else to
Speaker 1: help me and to do whatever I needed to do
Speaker 1: to him. Do you think he was sorry. I think
Speaker 1: he was sorry for I don't know. You know, I've
Speaker 1: I've pondered this so many times, uh doing my incarceration.
Speaker 1: What was the meaning of what he said to me?
Speaker 1: But it was a look also that he gave me, Stephanie,
Speaker 1: an apologetic look of more than just doing a terrible job.
Speaker 1: Oh yes, I have forgiven him a long time ago,
Speaker 1: not to forgive him. I don't know what was going
Speaker 1: on in his life, but I can tell you from
Speaker 1: my life. In order for me to move forward, I
Speaker 1: could not allow bitterness and unforgiveness to pause in me,
Speaker 1: because if I did, that meant that I was giving
Speaker 1: someone else control over my life. So I made the
Speaker 1: choice to forgive. You know, forgiveness, Stephanie's not out of feeling.
Speaker 1: It's a choice. I could make the choice to forgive
Speaker 1: and to forgive and forgive again until I felt like it,
Speaker 1: until the feeling came. But if the feeling didn't come,
Speaker 1: I still made the choice that I'm going to let
Speaker 1: this go and I'm going to live life as well
Speaker 1: as I can, even in prison. Did you make that choice?
Speaker 1: How did you make that choice? Was it natural or
Speaker 1: did it take a struggle? Did it take time? You
Speaker 1: must have been in shock. I was in shock, and
Speaker 1: I was angry. I was very angry because I felt betrayed.
Speaker 1: This is a person who I've entrusted with my very life,
Speaker 1: and I felt very much betrayed. But then I realized
Speaker 1: what it was doing. I couldn't sleep. It was making
Speaker 1: me sick. It was literally making me sick to have
Speaker 1: those terrible those thoughts of of of how bad he
Speaker 1: had done it, how bad he had treated me as
Speaker 1: a client, and what this had cost not only myself
Speaker 1: but my family too. But then you have to realize
Speaker 1: that person that you don't forgive, they're They've gone on
Speaker 1: about their lives, and it's not them who's in bondage
Speaker 1: to unforgiveness, is you. So I let that go. I
Speaker 1: forgave the people who testified against me, but I was
Speaker 1: not going to give the people who testified against me.
Speaker 1: I was not going to give them that power over
Speaker 1: my life, because I was giving them my life. By
Speaker 1: not forgiving them, I was giving them power control over
Speaker 1: whether I was happy, whether I could continue on, whether
Speaker 1: I could make the next step, whether I could put
Speaker 1: one ft in front of the other, to even just
Speaker 1: to to go on with life. And so that would
Speaker 1: have been a life sentence that bitterness, and I've called
Speaker 1: it a rottenness of the soul, And that is exactly
Speaker 1: what it is when you walk around with hate in
Speaker 1: your heart and unforgiveness it the effect upon you is
Speaker 1: is what you have to deal with. You've given someone
Speaker 1: moments of your life where you could maybe have joy
Speaker 1: in your life, but instead you can't even find anything
Speaker 1: good about life because you're eating up with bitterness and unforgiveness.
Speaker 1: And I refused, I'm already sentenced to life that would
Speaker 1: have been sentenced to death. Tell me what it's like
Speaker 1: in prison, because in theory, I would think all that
Speaker 1: bitterness and anger and rage that would fill a prison.
Speaker 1: There are quite a few people that had that rage
Speaker 1: and that bitterness and that anger. But as much as
Speaker 1: I could, I think people probably got tired of me
Speaker 1: talking to them about forgiveness because that is a message
Speaker 1: that I spread that I that I was able to
Speaker 1: spread in prison too. And I've seen people life's renewed.
Speaker 1: I've seen smiles back on faces that had a perpetual
Speaker 1: frown on them. And I believe that unforgiveness also accounts
Speaker 1: for even sickness that we have in our bodies. Um
Speaker 1: when you hold onto that. So what I did, Stephanie,
Speaker 1: for my little bit, my little piece that I could do.
Speaker 1: I tried to to bring a different atmosphere wherever I
Speaker 1: went in prison. I tried to get women involved in
Speaker 1: things to take their minds off and to even use
Speaker 1: place that I did to spread that message of forgiveness
Speaker 1: and pick up your life. You're not dead. As long
Speaker 1: as you have breath in your body, you can live.
Speaker 1: You have value, you can make a difference. And just
Speaker 1: being able to communicate that to to other women to
Speaker 1: give them hope because I had a lot of hope
Speaker 1: and I still have a lot of hope, and hope
Speaker 1: is contagious. Smiles and laughter is contagious, and so is hatred,
Speaker 1: unforgiveness and bitterness. It can be contagious. There is a
Speaker 1: weight of shame, and that shame comes I think, well,
Speaker 1: you don't forgive yourself for the things that you've done.
Speaker 1: If I felt that I had disappointed so many people,
Speaker 1: I disappointed myself too, So even even forgiving others, the
Speaker 1: last big obstacle was forgiving myself and shaking that shame
Speaker 1: off and holding my head up again and knowing that
Speaker 1: I can't change the past, but I sure can do
Speaker 1: something about the present, and I can do something going
Speaker 1: forward into my future. So this is what I'm hearing about. Forgiveness.
Speaker 1: It does not come naturally. It is not an automatic.
Speaker 1: It is a choice. And in the case of Alice Johnson,
Speaker 1: the choice to forgive others is really about giving herself
Speaker 1: a better life, freeing herself. To not forgive would have
Speaker 1: been a life sentence of a different kind for her,
Speaker 1: possibly even worse than prison. This choice was about freedom
Speaker 1: for her, and Alice was able to get there. But
Speaker 1: for Nicole Hockley, forgiveness that is not something she's ready
Speaker 1: for now. She's not consumed by bitterness. She's devoted to
Speaker 1: making real change. So it happened to her son, to
Speaker 1: her family, hopefully never happens to someone else. That is
Speaker 1: Nicole's mission. But forgiveness, forgiveness for the man who pulled
Speaker 1: the trigger, forgiveness for his mother who allowed him to
Speaker 1: have those guns. She is not ready for that, not now.
Speaker 1: It is a choice. It's a deeply personal choice. That
Speaker 1: is what I learned from these two exceptional women. This
Speaker 1: has been our conversation on forgiveness. Thanks for listening, bringing
Speaker 1: an open mind and helping me create Modern Rules. Want
Speaker 1: more of this conversation, go deeper and read this week's
Speaker 1: Modern Rules feature only on NBC news dot Com Slash Better. Ye.
Speaker 1: That's it for today's episode, I'm your host, Stephanie Rule.
Speaker 1: A very very special thanks to the extraordinary people who
Speaker 1: made this happen. My producers Julie Brown, Samantha Ullen and
Speaker 1: Anne Bark, Audio, Michael Biett for booking and wrangling, the
Speaker 1: amazing guests who joined us, Julian Weller for editing and
Speaker 1: bill plaques, Michael Azar and Jacobo Penzo for their recording expertise.
Speaker 1: Special thanks to see Blick Tige, Barbara Rab, Jonathan Wald,
Speaker 1: Marie Dugo, Holly traz Nikki Etre and Christina Everett are
Speaker 1: Executive producers are Conald Byrne and Mangesh Hatiga Door and
Speaker 1: of course, the men who brought us all together, Chairman
Speaker 1: and CEO of I Heart Media Bob Pittman and Chairman
Speaker 1: of NBC News Andy Lack. For more podcasts for My
Speaker 1: Heart Radio, visit the i Heart Radio app, Apple podcast,
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.