1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,000 Speaker 1: You're listening to Modern Rules, a production of MSNBC and 2 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: I heart Radio. I don't understand how his mother could 3 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: have allowed him to have all that access to firearms, 4 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:15,239 Speaker 1: and I don't understand how his mother didn't get him help. 5 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: I don't think I hate them, but um I have 6 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:22,439 Speaker 1: not forgiven them. In order for me to move forward. 7 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: I could not allow bitterness and unforgiveness to pause on me, 8 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: because if I did, that meant that I was giving 9 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: someone else control over my life. When I was younger, definitely, 10 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: when it came to my career, I had very sharp elbows. 11 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:43,879 Speaker 1: Time and experience have changed that they've smoothed them out. 12 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:46,880 Speaker 1: I like to think, and today I do not hold 13 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: the grudges that I used to. So maybe it is 14 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: true that a little bit of age, experience, some pain 15 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: have given me some perspective on how other people think 16 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: and what other people do. And today, somehow that experience 17 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: has made it easier for me to understand why people 18 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: do the things they do, even hurtful things. And I 19 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:11,200 Speaker 1: try to put myself in their shoes and cut them 20 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: some slack. But the things I have to forgive in 21 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 1: other people, or even forgiven myself, are small if I 22 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: compare them to the entirety of what people experience in 23 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: their whole lives. So the question I want to answer, 24 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: are there things are their acts that are simply too 25 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: terrible to forgive? Or is forgiving the truly terrible thing 26 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: the way you liberate yourself from the power that other 27 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:43,919 Speaker 1: person is holding over you. I'm Stephanie Rule, MSNBC anchor 28 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 1: and NBC News correspondent, and this is Modern Rules. In 29 00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: this season of Modern Rules, I'm going to be spending 30 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: time on packing the harriest conversations from privilege to political 31 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: correctness to try and figure out how we can navigate 32 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:11,399 Speaker 1: this changing world and break through to actually talk with 33 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: and learn from the people who disagree with us, and 34 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: maybe just maybe learn something along the way. Today on 35 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 1: Modern Rules, we're talking about forgiveness. Are people's worst actions 36 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:29,679 Speaker 1: truly fueled by hate? Do they do something terrible because 37 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:33,079 Speaker 1: they're a terrible person? Or do people do bad things 38 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: because they're hopeless? If we all had everything we needed, 39 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 1: is it possible that we wouldn't do anything terrible, anything 40 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:45,639 Speaker 1: that required forgiveness? Is it possible that there really are 41 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: no bad people, There's just bad mindsets and bad situations 42 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: that drive us into desperate things. That's coming up on 43 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:59,359 Speaker 1: Modern Rules with guests Nicole Hockley and Alice Johnson. Nicole 44 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 1: Hockley law us her son Dylan in the Sandy Hook massacre. 45 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 1: To say it was devastating for her and for so 46 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:08,920 Speaker 1: many others really doesn't capture the depth of their loss. 47 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: But Nicole's reaction almost immediately was to focus on making 48 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: a difference herself, doing what she could do to keep 49 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: other parents from having that same awful experience. So she 50 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: channeled her grief and her anger into creating a positive 51 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 1: impact through a remarkable organization, the Sandy Hook Promise. You know, 52 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: it's interesting to talk to Nicole about forgiveness because she 53 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 1: doesn't sugarcoat things. She has got powerful feelings. Forgiveness is 54 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: not something that comes easily. What's amazing to me really 55 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: is your message and your work and your programs. In 56 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: all of our interactions, you're not angry. Every time I'm 57 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 1: with you, I can feel your open heart. Can you 58 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: help me understand your journey and how you got here? Well, 59 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: I do want to say I do actually have a 60 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: lot of anger in me, just um maybe control it 61 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 1: better because I don't think it's productive, and I think 62 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: it can get in the way of progress, and that's 63 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 1: really what's most important to me. My anger isn't going 64 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: to produce results talking to people, listening to people, trying 65 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 1: to find that common ground. You know, I'm absolutely obsessed 66 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: with impact and trying to make a difference in saving 67 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 1: a life, and that means my personal feelings, thoughts or 68 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 1: agendas come second place. So you can be angry or 69 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 1: you can be unable to forgive, and at the same 70 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 1: time you can progress. I have to, Yeah, I have to, 71 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: because that is that's our mission. It's not about me, um, 72 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 1: it's not about my family. It's about what's the greater good, 73 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 1: and that means putting yourself aside and focused. You know, 74 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:53,039 Speaker 1: we have a saying in our office mission before me, 75 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: and that's what we live every single day. You don't 76 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 1: come there for yourself. You don't work at Sandy Hook 77 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 1: Promise for your self. You don't support it for yourself. 78 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 1: You support it for the mission to keep kids safe 79 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 1: and to stop gun violence. Can you tell me about 80 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: your path since oh golly, completely surreal, none of this 81 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 1: bears any resemblance to my life beforehand. That's for sure. 82 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 1: I'm still figuring out who I am and who I'm 83 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: evolving into. What was your life before? I was a 84 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: marketing and communications director for a healthcare company, so I 85 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,280 Speaker 1: know a lot about financial services. I could borrow your 86 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:31,840 Speaker 1: ears off of annuities and investments that I certainly didn't 87 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:35,600 Speaker 1: know anything about social activism. I had never even been 88 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: to d C before I started lobbying Congress. I was 89 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: also just a mom trying to make ends meet and 90 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:45,159 Speaker 1: look after my two boys. They were my priorities, and 91 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 1: it was a simple life and a very happy life. 92 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 1: I was one of those people that it sounds so 93 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:51,280 Speaker 1: stupid to say, but it's true. I used to think 94 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: I would just like burst sometimes because I was I 95 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: just had so much joy in me, and I think 96 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: I'm a lot more. I don't know grounded or solid 97 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 1: or lenced now. How and when did you become productive? 98 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 1: Did you go from devastation, grief, paralysis? How does the 99 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: process work? Well? I think the process is totally different 100 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: for each person. So I'm I'm in no way a 101 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:19,040 Speaker 1: typical person. Um. I started talking about change at Dylan's funeral, 102 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: which was a week after the shooting, and and I 103 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:26,280 Speaker 1: was very honest at his memorial service that I had 104 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 1: no idea what changes were going to come, but that 105 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 1: I intended to be part of it, uh for Dylan 106 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 1: and for whoever else wanted to be part of that 107 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: as well, um that something had to be done so 108 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,840 Speaker 1: that other parents wouldn't be standing in my shoes. The 109 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 1: first year, we did what what everyone does after emaciating, 110 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 1: we focused on policy. We spent a lot of time 111 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 1: in d C, met some amazing people, met some not 112 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: so amazing people who who I don't name as well, 113 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: but spent a lot of time just trying to lobby 114 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: for the simple things, the low hanging fruit, crown checks. 115 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 1: And after that failed in April, that's when we took 116 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: a hard look at each other and said, if we've 117 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: done all that we can around the simple things and 118 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: that hasn't passed them, we're doing this the wrong way. 119 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 1: So we then went dark for about twelve eighteen months 120 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 1: while we studied hard. I spent time with mental health experts, 121 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 1: gun safety experts, academic social change experts, law enforcement, absorbing books, 122 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 1: still trying to process grief at the same time, and 123 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: then after doing all of this study for a year 124 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 1: year and a half, and that's when we started to 125 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 1: formulate a new way to try to find the common 126 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 1: ground because we know that, you know, we do have 127 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: a lot of divisive issues in this country, but we 128 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:44,239 Speaker 1: have managed to find the way forward on so many 129 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 1: of them. So you know, what are those levers that 130 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 1: you can pull to create social change? And that's when 131 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 1: we started focusing on things other than just policy. But 132 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: how do you get people engaged in an issue, how 133 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: do you make it personal to them? How do you 134 00:07:55,960 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: change them and train them on how to be an 135 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: act until it just becomes normal. And that's how you 136 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 1: get real behavioral change, which leads to social change, and 137 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: then policy and politics are a lot easier to follow. 138 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: Gun control seems to be one of the most divided 139 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: divisive issues, but you actually go to towns, go to schools, 140 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 1: go to people's homes, are we that divided? Not? Really? 141 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 1: It depends on how you frame a conversation. Because I 142 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 1: think parents or anyone who with children in their lives, 143 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 1: they will do anything to protect that child. For some 144 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 1: people that means owning firearms. For some people that means 145 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 1: ensuring that there are no firearms around. But there's also 146 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 1: this vast swathe in the middle that are like, I 147 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: really don't care about guns or you know, whether you 148 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 1: have guns or don't have guns. I just want to 149 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 1: keep my kids safe. Give me the right tools to 150 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: be able to do that. And when you start the 151 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 1: conversation from that perspective and and actually don't even take 152 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 1: the word gun into it, you can make a lot 153 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: more progress and build relationships and try and then have 154 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: a conversation about where guns and firearms fit into this equation. 155 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: If they do at all, how do you keep pop 156 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: What else would I do? There is hope anyway. These 157 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 1: shootings are still happening every day, and they all bring 158 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 1: me to my knees. Um. I think you've seen me 159 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:26,319 Speaker 1: very soon after some shootings, and you've seen me lose 160 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: control completely, um, which is not something I do in public. 161 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: But it also just renews my my commitment to making 162 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: this happen. Why I continue to be hopeful is because 163 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 1: although we hear so much about the shootings that do occur, 164 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: I'm also hearing about the shootings that don't occur. I'm 165 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 1: hearing about the towns that you're never going to profile 166 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: on any news show because the school shooting didn't happen 167 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:55,439 Speaker 1: the suicide didn't happen, And that's that's where I'm hopeful, 168 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:57,679 Speaker 1: because I know it's happening, and I know it's changing. 169 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 1: Are there are times though, in you lose hope. When 170 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: you and I sit across from each other, it's always 171 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 1: after another shooting. How do you find the will to 172 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 1: say things are getting better? How do you find how 173 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 1: are you able to be optimistic through this? How come 174 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: anger doesn't overcome you? Well, if anger overcomes me, then 175 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:22,960 Speaker 1: then the Sandy Hook shooter one. And I can't let 176 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: that happen because there's a greater duty here to protect 177 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: my surviving son and builds a good, safe future for 178 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 1: him as well as for others. I don't know whether 179 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:37,199 Speaker 1: I'm just the eternal optimist or not, but I do 180 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:39,319 Speaker 1: believe that, you know, when when I go around the 181 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 1: country and talking to schools, talking to parents, talking to politicians, 182 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 1: even there is a will to deliver a safer future. 183 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:50,680 Speaker 1: It's the how that sometimes gets in the way. It's 184 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:54,680 Speaker 1: the how that people have struggle to find the ways forward. 185 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 1: And if we can find the right ways to engage 186 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: people and give them the tools, I know we're making 187 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:04,679 Speaker 1: a difference. So why wouldn't I be hopeful and optimistic. 188 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 1: The change is coming. It's it's it's getting through the 189 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 1: how and then deciding the win. Hold on a second, 190 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 1: because we have so much more to talk about. We'll 191 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:21,199 Speaker 1: be right back after a quick break. Welcome back to 192 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: modern rules. I asked you not long ago if the 193 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 1: gun manufacturer, if anyone from the company ever reached out 194 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: to you to apologize. Yeah, no, Yah, How could that be? 195 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: I don't know, I would guess because they would feel 196 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 1: if they apologize, that they've been admitting some form of 197 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: guilt and they can't do that if there's a difference 198 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 1: between compassion though, and I think that was what's lacking there. 199 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: On the other side, can you speak about the last 200 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 1: few years and the support that has built around you 201 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:01,439 Speaker 1: from people that you didn't know, or the strength of 202 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 1: Sandy hook promise? Has it has? Has? Has the power 203 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: of your reach surprised you? Yes? And no. On the 204 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 1: yes side, I mean my house was filled with letters 205 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 1: and items from people around the around the world who 206 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:23,200 Speaker 1: just wanted to outreach and let me and my husband 207 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,319 Speaker 1: know that they were sorry for our loss. And that's 208 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:29,680 Speaker 1: amazing and that's something that I've cataloged for Jake because 209 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 1: I want him to always remember that there's a lot 210 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: of good in the world and that people really do 211 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 1: care and help each other. My personal circle of friends 212 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:45,439 Speaker 1: um grew massively and then shrunk massively. It was too 213 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 1: hard for people. I definitely make some people uncomfortable. I 214 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: am not your I am not the dinner party guests 215 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 1: that you want to invite me. People don't know where 216 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:59,439 Speaker 1: to look sometimes, Uh, there there are some people that 217 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: you know. For some people, I'm I'm a parent's worst 218 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 1: nightmare because I've lost my child in a way that 219 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 1: they cannot wrap their heads around and don't want to 220 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 1: face that even idea, that possibility that it could have 221 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 1: been them, And I get it, and that can be 222 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:17,439 Speaker 1: awkward because people don't know what to say, they don't 223 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 1: know how to act. Um. They want to hug me, 224 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: which I always left them, But then it's like where 225 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 1: do you go from there? Even meeting people for the 226 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 1: first time now in social occasions, it's like normally, if 227 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 1: you're going out with someone, yeah, they'll be like, oh, 228 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 1: and what do you do for a living? They know 229 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 1: who I am beforehand, so there's no normal conversation and 230 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: they either want to talk about Dylan, or you could 231 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 1: go hours and there's no even ask about So, do 232 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:42,559 Speaker 1: you have children? It was that hard for you to 233 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:47,079 Speaker 1: parent another child because your identity is so tied to 234 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,559 Speaker 1: Dylan and Sandy Hook it is. But what I make 235 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: sure with Jake is that my identity, my identity publicly 236 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 1: might be very focused on Dylan, but privately it is 237 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 1: absolutely balanced between Dylan and Jake. When I'm with Jake, 238 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 1: it's I'm a present for him and his needs. And 239 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 1: you know, the house doesn't have tons of just photos 240 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,599 Speaker 1: of Dylan. And I've spoken to other parents who have 241 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: lost children in gun violence and seen the same things, 242 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: the paintings and the pictures all over the house, and 243 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 1: I have to remind them don't forget about your surviving 244 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 1: child as well, because if you make your life solely 245 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: about the one who died, what what message are you 246 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 1: inadvertently giving to the one who survived? Are you ever 247 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: just pissed? Are you ever angry at other mothers, at 248 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 1: other families, at random events because this didn't happen to them. Never, 249 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 1: never angry because it didn't happen to them. No, never, ever, ever. 250 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 1: I get angry sometimes and you know, I work to 251 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 1: control it. If sometimes if it's just really awkward, I 252 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 1: get angry that I'm in this situation in the first place. 253 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 1: I get angry that I don't have a normal life anymore. 254 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: I get angry that, you know, even if I'm grocery shopping, 255 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 1: I don't look around at the people around me because 256 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 1: sometimes I just, you know, I don't want to be known. 257 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: I just want to be me. I got angry when, 258 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 1: you know, after my divorce, trying to then start dating 259 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 1: again and it's even like, you know, do you tell 260 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: someone who you are or do you not? And it's 261 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: that awkward conversation. I mean, try dating when you're a 262 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: Sandy hook parent. It's not exactly you're it's not great 263 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: to do it. Went on a lot, a lot, a 264 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: lot of first dates that never became second dates. Um, 265 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: and then one guy stuck and he's like, why on 266 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 1: earth are you with me? And I'm because you're You're 267 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 1: the normal in my life. And he sees a sweetheart, 268 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: did you want to leave Newtown because you do drive 269 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 1: by the same school, you do go to the same 270 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: grocery store. Yeah, so Ian and I Dylan's dad, Dylan 271 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 1: and Jake's dad. Right after the shooting, we had thought 272 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 1: about going back to England where we've been living, and 273 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: all of our friends and family there were like, just 274 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 1: come back. What are you doing in this crazy place 275 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: that this could happen? And it was tempting. But at 276 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: the same time, even then, early on, we knew we 277 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 1: had chosen new Town for a reason. And you can't escape, 278 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: you can't run away because it's still it's still with 279 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: you wherever you go. And um, I knew I had 280 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: a job to do and the job is here in America, 281 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: that it's here in Newtown. How much time do you 282 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 1: devote to being angry at the person who did this? 283 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: Not as much anymore. I won't lie. I still have 284 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 1: anger hate him. Hate is a really strong word. Um 285 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: he's dead, so there's nothing I can do about that. 286 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: Do you hate his mother? I don't understand how his 287 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 1: mother could have allowed him to have all that access 288 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 1: to firearms. And I don't understand how his mother didn't 289 00:16:54,040 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 1: get him help. Um I I don't think I hate them, 290 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:05,120 Speaker 1: but um I have not forgiven them. But you don't 291 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 1: need to forgive them to move on. I don't think so. 292 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: I know some people do and I respect you know, 293 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: different forms of faith, UM, that are allowed. You know 294 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: that that they have that within them to do that. 295 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 1: I'm still angry at God, and UM, I'm not in 296 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 1: a space of forgiveness because I think what was done, 297 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:28,959 Speaker 1: what is unforgivable? Um, how can how? I don't know 298 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 1: how I can forgive someone who made a choice, UM, 299 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 1: to take firearms to a school and kill innocence in 300 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: that way, We're going to be right back after a 301 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 1: quick break, welcome back to modern rules. Alice Johnson was 302 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 1: serving a life sentence in prison. One none other than 303 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: Kim Kardashian took her story to the President and convinced 304 00:17:57,119 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 1: him to grant Alice a pardon. She had already been 305 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:03,119 Speaker 1: in pray and for over twenty years. Alice's outlook on life, 306 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,479 Speaker 1: shaped by her experience behind bars, is surprising and I 307 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 1: think it's inspiring. As she tells it, forgiveness is a 308 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: kind of freedom, at least for her. I had a 309 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: chance to read your book. I think lots of people 310 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 1: know what's happened to you, but they don't know what 311 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: lad you here. So if you wouldn't mind, can you 312 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:28,439 Speaker 1: give us your story? Yes, there was there was a 313 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:31,720 Speaker 1: sequence of events that really lay it to me making 314 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 1: the terrible mistake to get involved in criminal activities. I'd 315 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:41,879 Speaker 1: lost my job of ten years with FedEx, I was 316 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 1: taking care of five children as a single mother, totally 317 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: without any help, and bills were piling up. I was 318 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:55,679 Speaker 1: not making really good decisions. Sometimes when you're desperate, you 319 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: do things that if you were to think about it 320 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: later on, you wouldn't do them. If I could go 321 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: back in time and talk to myself, I would definitely 322 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 1: tell myself run, don't walk with Run from anything that 323 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 1: looks illegal. An offer was made to me to become 324 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 1: involved in a drug conspiracy. My role would be to 325 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 1: pass along telephone messages. I was the go between, and 326 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 1: I did that. I made that terrible, terrible decision to 327 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 1: do that. I was arrested in what became a drug 328 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: sting and I made the decision to go to trial. 329 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:41,400 Speaker 1: I was offered three to five years, but decided from 330 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 1: the advice of my attorney. My family scraped together the 331 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 1: money to pay who we thought was a very uh 332 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 1: season attorney, and he told me that I had a 333 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 1: very good case because they had not gotten me with 334 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 1: any drugs or any money. And plus my financial condition 335 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:05,439 Speaker 1: did not show a person who could fit the description 336 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: of a drug queen pin or king pin. I was eventually, 337 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:15,880 Speaker 1: after the six week trial, convicted of um drug conspiracy 338 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:19,440 Speaker 1: about an eleven person jury, and as a first time 339 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: non violent offender, I was sentenced to life without parole 340 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 1: without the possibility of parole because there is no parole 341 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 1: in the federal system. After being incarcerated, I've just made 342 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: some decisions that I'm not going to allow this to 343 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 1: literally take my life. I was told the only way 344 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 1: that I would leave prison would be as a corpse, 345 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:47,880 Speaker 1: but despite that, I still was not going to allow 346 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: prison to define who I am as a person. As 347 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: an individual, I did a lot of things Stephanie in prison, 348 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: I set with people who were in hospice care. I 349 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: worked with the this first ever Special Olympics. In prison, 350 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 1: I continued to fight for my freedom through various motions, 351 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 1: but everything was denied. I applied for clemency three times, 352 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: and each time I was denied. But this very last 353 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 1: time that I applied for clemency in two thousand and eighteen, well, 354 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,880 Speaker 1: let me back up just a little bit. After fighting 355 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:32,159 Speaker 1: so hard, my family also was involved in fighting for 356 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 1: my freedom that did vigils outside the White House. My 357 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: daughter started a petition on change dot org that garnered 358 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,919 Speaker 1: over two hundred and seventy thousand signatures of people that 359 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 1: were signing when they heard about my story. Who was 360 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 1: we're signing petitions for my freedom? My warden wrote a 361 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 1: letter from my Freedom talking about the type of person 362 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: that I was in prison. My captain at the prison 363 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,400 Speaker 1: case man, nit, you're my employer. I had a lot 364 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:07,199 Speaker 1: of support from the political side. Also, three members of 365 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:11,360 Speaker 1: Congress wrote letters on my behalf. I had religious leaders 366 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: in double A c P president of our chapter in 367 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: Dissola County, Mississippi, wrote a great letter acting for my release. 368 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 1: But somehow I was one that seemed to have just 369 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: slipped through the cracks when you were sentenced to prison, 370 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 1: When you were convicted, do you think the eyes of 371 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:37,359 Speaker 1: the law consider those who have privileged and those who don't. 372 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:42,680 Speaker 1: The situation that you were in, right, My lawyer told 373 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: me that I had a really good chance and that 374 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,360 Speaker 1: he would recommend that I go to trial. Even when 375 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: the jury was hung and another offer was sent to me, 376 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: he told me, I basically don't take it. I think 377 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: we've got a really good chance of winning this. But 378 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:02,640 Speaker 1: the thing, Stephanie, is that I know ignorance is no excuse, 379 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:08,400 Speaker 1: but I never knew that a life sentence was even possible. 380 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: You know what, Ignorance might not be an excuse, but 381 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,879 Speaker 1: that's why, because you didn't understand the situation, you hired 382 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: a lawyer, and so you trusted that lawyer. Well, he 383 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: still told me that, um, he was going to fight 384 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: my case and he felt that I had a good 385 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 1: chance to win at appeal. He said that you probably 386 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: won't spend more than thirteen months family. When he came 387 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,359 Speaker 1: to visit me and Stephanie, this was this was a 388 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 1: really strange thing about all of the things that took 389 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,679 Speaker 1: place with me and my attorney. It was almost like 390 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 1: he was apologizing to me. I thought he was coming 391 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 1: to visit to give me more hope, that he was 392 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,880 Speaker 1: going to continue to fight because we had lost the appeal, 393 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:55,879 Speaker 1: and said he came to give me an apology to 394 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: let me know that he would be that he would 395 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,040 Speaker 1: not represent me, and he would do nothing else to 396 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,959 Speaker 1: help me and to do whatever I needed to do 397 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 1: to him. Do you think he was sorry. I think 398 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,400 Speaker 1: he was sorry for I don't know. You know, I've 399 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:16,400 Speaker 1: I've pondered this so many times, uh doing my incarceration. 400 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: What was the meaning of what he said to me? 401 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,679 Speaker 1: But it was a look also that he gave me, Stephanie, 402 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 1: an apologetic look of more than just doing a terrible job. 403 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: Oh yes, I have forgiven him a long time ago, 404 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 1: not to forgive him. I don't know what was going 405 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 1: on in his life, but I can tell you from 406 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,959 Speaker 1: my life. In order for me to move forward, I 407 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:49,399 Speaker 1: could not allow bitterness and unforgiveness to pause in me, 408 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 1: because if I did, that meant that I was giving 409 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: someone else control over my life. So I made the 410 00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:00,640 Speaker 1: choice to forgive. You know, forgiveness, Stephanie's not out of feeling. 411 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 1: It's a choice. I could make the choice to forgive 412 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: and to forgive and forgive again until I felt like it, 413 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 1: until the feeling came. But if the feeling didn't come, 414 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: I still made the choice that I'm going to let 415 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 1: this go and I'm going to live life as well 416 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,719 Speaker 1: as I can, even in prison. Did you make that choice? 417 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 1: How did you make that choice? Was it natural or 418 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 1: did it take a struggle? Did it take time? You 419 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: must have been in shock. I was in shock, and 420 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:35,399 Speaker 1: I was angry. I was very angry because I felt betrayed. 421 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,160 Speaker 1: This is a person who I've entrusted with my very life, 422 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 1: and I felt very much betrayed. But then I realized 423 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: what it was doing. I couldn't sleep. It was making 424 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: me sick. It was literally making me sick to have 425 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 1: those terrible those thoughts of of of how bad he 426 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: had done it, how bad he had treated me as 427 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 1: a client, and what this had cost not only myself 428 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: but my family too. But then you have to realize 429 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,720 Speaker 1: that person that you don't forgive, they're They've gone on 430 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 1: about their lives, and it's not them who's in bondage 431 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 1: to unforgiveness, is you. So I let that go. I 432 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 1: forgave the people who testified against me, but I was 433 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 1: not going to give the people who testified against me. 434 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 1: I was not going to give them that power over 435 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:32,120 Speaker 1: my life, because I was giving them my life. By 436 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,440 Speaker 1: not forgiving them, I was giving them power control over 437 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: whether I was happy, whether I could continue on, whether 438 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 1: I could make the next step, whether I could put 439 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 1: one ft in front of the other, to even just 440 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,879 Speaker 1: to to go on with life. And so that would 441 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 1: have been a life sentence that bitterness, and I've called 442 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 1: it a rottenness of the soul, And that is exactly 443 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: what it is when you walk around with hate in 444 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:03,120 Speaker 1: your heart and unforgiveness it the effect upon you is 445 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,360 Speaker 1: is what you have to deal with. You've given someone 446 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 1: moments of your life where you could maybe have joy 447 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 1: in your life, but instead you can't even find anything 448 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 1: good about life because you're eating up with bitterness and unforgiveness. 449 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 1: And I refused, I'm already sentenced to life that would 450 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 1: have been sentenced to death. Tell me what it's like 451 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 1: in prison, because in theory, I would think all that 452 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: bitterness and anger and rage that would fill a prison. 453 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,159 Speaker 1: There are quite a few people that had that rage 454 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 1: and that bitterness and that anger. But as much as 455 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 1: I could, I think people probably got tired of me 456 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,360 Speaker 1: talking to them about forgiveness because that is a message 457 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:51,879 Speaker 1: that I spread that I that I was able to 458 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 1: spread in prison too. And I've seen people life's renewed. 459 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,680 Speaker 1: I've seen smiles back on faces that had a perpetual 460 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 1: frown on them. And I believe that unforgiveness also accounts 461 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:09,400 Speaker 1: for even sickness that we have in our bodies. Um 462 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:13,879 Speaker 1: when you hold onto that. So what I did, Stephanie, 463 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,359 Speaker 1: for my little bit, my little piece that I could do. 464 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 1: I tried to to bring a different atmosphere wherever I 465 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,479 Speaker 1: went in prison. I tried to get women involved in 466 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 1: things to take their minds off and to even use 467 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: place that I did to spread that message of forgiveness 468 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 1: and pick up your life. You're not dead. As long 469 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 1: as you have breath in your body, you can live. 470 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 1: You have value, you can make a difference. And just 471 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 1: being able to communicate that to to other women to 472 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: give them hope because I had a lot of hope 473 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 1: and I still have a lot of hope, and hope 474 00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 1: is contagious. Smiles and laughter is contagious, and so is hatred, 475 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: unforgiveness and bitterness. It can be contagious. There is a 476 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 1: weight of shame, and that shame comes I think, well, 477 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 1: you don't forgive yourself for the things that you've done. 478 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 1: If I felt that I had disappointed so many people, 479 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 1: I disappointed myself too, So even even forgiving others, the 480 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 1: last big obstacle was forgiving myself and shaking that shame 481 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 1: off and holding my head up again and knowing that 482 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 1: I can't change the past, but I sure can do 483 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 1: something about the present, and I can do something going 484 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 1: forward into my future. So this is what I'm hearing about. Forgiveness. 485 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 1: It does not come naturally. It is not an automatic. 486 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 1: It is a choice. And in the case of Alice Johnson, 487 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 1: the choice to forgive others is really about giving herself 488 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 1: a better life, freeing herself. To not forgive would have 489 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 1: been a life sentence of a different kind for her, 490 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 1: possibly even worse than prison. This choice was about freedom 491 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 1: for her, and Alice was able to get there. But 492 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 1: for Nicole Hockley, forgiveness that is not something she's ready 493 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 1: for now. She's not consumed by bitterness. She's devoted to 494 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 1: making real change. So it happened to her son, to 495 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 1: her family, hopefully never happens to someone else. That is 496 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 1: Nicole's mission. But forgiveness, forgiveness for the man who pulled 497 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 1: the trigger, forgiveness for his mother who allowed him to 498 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 1: have those guns. She is not ready for that, not now. 499 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 1: It is a choice. It's a deeply personal choice. That 500 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 1: is what I learned from these two exceptional women. This 501 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 1: has been our conversation on forgiveness. Thanks for listening, bringing 502 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 1: an open mind and helping me create Modern Rules. Want 503 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 1: more of this conversation, go deeper and read this week's 504 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:13,479 Speaker 1: Modern Rules feature only on NBC news dot Com Slash Better. Ye. 505 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 1: That's it for today's episode, I'm your host, Stephanie Rule. 506 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 1: A very very special thanks to the extraordinary people who 507 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 1: made this happen. My producers Julie Brown, Samantha Ullen and 508 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: Anne Bark, Audio, Michael Biett for booking and wrangling, the 509 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 1: amazing guests who joined us, Julian Weller for editing and 510 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 1: bill plaques, Michael Azar and Jacobo Penzo for their recording expertise. 511 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 1: Special thanks to see Blick Tige, Barbara Rab, Jonathan Wald, 512 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 1: Marie Dugo, Holly traz Nikki Etre and Christina Everett are 513 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: Executive producers are Conald Byrne and Mangesh Hatiga Door and 514 00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 1: of course, the men who brought us all together, Chairman 515 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 1: and CEO of I Heart Media Bob Pittman and Chairman 516 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 1: of NBC News Andy Lack. For more podcasts for My 517 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 1: Heart Radio, visit the i Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, 518 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.