WEBVTT - Passover, Plagues, and Coronavirus 0:00:15.396 --> 0:00:22.836 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 0:00:22.876 --> 0:00:26.196 where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:26.716 --> 0:00:29.636 I'm Noah Feldman. For those of you who have been 0:00:29.676 --> 0:00:32.116 listening in recent weeks, you know that we have been 0:00:32.436 --> 0:00:36.596 very deep inside Corona. In fact, sometimes I think we 0:00:36.636 --> 0:00:40.116 don't talk about anything else, and from an ethical perspective, 0:00:40.276 --> 0:00:43.876 maybe that's correct. This is a pressing problem. People are 0:00:43.956 --> 0:00:46.836 dying and we need to take that all extremely seriously. 0:00:47.676 --> 0:00:49.796 Yet it's also true that a little while ago, when 0:00:49.796 --> 0:00:53.196 I spoke to doctor Laurie Santos of Yale University, she 0:00:53.316 --> 0:00:57.996 advised me that maintaining routine and tradition is a powerful 0:00:58.036 --> 0:01:02.396 way of managing ourselves under these circumstances. Well, for a 0:01:02.436 --> 0:01:06.396 lot of us, the maintenance of routine includes the schedule 0:01:06.436 --> 0:01:09.956 of holidays, and with Passover and Easter coming, we have 0:01:09.996 --> 0:01:12.516 to make a decision of whether to ignore those holidays 0:01:12.556 --> 0:01:15.676 altogether or to celebrate them as appropriately as we can 0:01:16.156 --> 0:01:20.516 under our current straightened circumstances. Here a Deep Background. We 0:01:20.596 --> 0:01:24.036 don't celebrate holidays as a podcast, but we do try 0:01:24.036 --> 0:01:26.636 to maintain some sense of continuity, and so we thought 0:01:26.636 --> 0:01:29.436 it was appropriate to have an episode that did talk 0:01:29.476 --> 0:01:32.316 about Passover, but pass Over with a little bit of 0:01:32.356 --> 0:01:35.556 a Corona twist. And what better way to think about 0:01:35.596 --> 0:01:39.236 Passover and Corona than to talk about the biblical plague's 0:01:39.436 --> 0:01:42.516 associate with the Exodus story. For those of you who 0:01:42.556 --> 0:01:44.636 need a little bit of a refresher on what exactly 0:01:44.676 --> 0:01:50.076 those plagues are. The traditional count starts with blood, frogs, 0:01:50.436 --> 0:01:54.116 lice and goes on in a list until it culminates 0:01:54.516 --> 0:01:58.916 with pale darkness and the killing of the firstborn. If 0:01:58.916 --> 0:02:01.036 that rings a bell for you, you might enjoy the 0:02:01.076 --> 0:02:04.556 rest of this episode. I'm joined by doctor i Don Dershowitz. 0:02:04.756 --> 0:02:08.156 He's a junior fellow at Harvard University's Society of Fellows. 0:02:08.596 --> 0:02:13.876 His academ mcwork has appeared in JBL, VT ZAW. Those 0:02:13.876 --> 0:02:16.036 are big journals in the Bible world. I promise you 0:02:16.356 --> 0:02:19.276 not to mention The New York Times. His forthcoming book 0:02:19.476 --> 0:02:22.116 on the Redaction of the Herbival will be published by 0:02:22.156 --> 0:02:25.836 more Seabeck, and he's currently studying the composition history of 0:02:25.876 --> 0:02:28.316 the Book of Deuteronomy. Dan is one of the most 0:02:28.316 --> 0:02:31.916 creative scholars thinking about the Bible today, and he's also 0:02:32.276 --> 0:02:37.276 very engaging at talking about it. Dan, thank you for 0:02:37.356 --> 0:02:40.996 joining me. I wanted to start by asking you about 0:02:41.036 --> 0:02:44.916 the biblical story of the plagues. Well, usually start by 0:02:44.956 --> 0:02:48.036 saying there are ten plagues, but you think that that 0:02:48.196 --> 0:02:53.036 might be a misnomer. Yeah, So the idea of ten 0:02:53.076 --> 0:02:57.716 plagues appears first in Rabbinic literature, and they count ten 0:02:57.796 --> 0:03:01.476 events that are described in the biblical text in the 0:03:01.476 --> 0:03:05.996 Book of Exodus. However, the decision to count those specific 0:03:06.276 --> 0:03:10.036 ten events is a matter of interprets and does not 0:03:10.156 --> 0:03:14.716 at all derive directly from the text. But it's not 0:03:14.756 --> 0:03:18.636 even clear that the correct classification is plagues at all, 0:03:18.676 --> 0:03:23.716 as opposed to say miracles, signs, wonders, and so on. Well, 0:03:23.716 --> 0:03:26.036 then where would you start if you wanted to tell 0:03:26.076 --> 0:03:28.556 the story of the signs or wonders? Because I take 0:03:28.596 --> 0:03:31.316 it that signs and wonders are words that the biblical 0:03:31.356 --> 0:03:35.316 story uses repeatedly, rather than the word plague. So where 0:03:35.316 --> 0:03:37.476 would you start your list? And we now know they 0:03:37.516 --> 0:03:39.356 don't have to be ten in your list? But where 0:03:39.356 --> 0:03:42.036 would you start with signs and wonders in the Accodus story? 0:03:42.516 --> 0:03:46.556 I think a good place to start would probably be 0:03:46.716 --> 0:03:52.036 the story of a competition between Aaron, brother of Moses, 0:03:52.516 --> 0:03:58.436 and the Egyptian magicians, where Aaron takes his staff and 0:03:59.156 --> 0:04:01.916 casts it upon the ground and it becomes a Tannin 0:04:02.276 --> 0:04:06.516 is the Hebrew word which may be a crocodile. Some 0:04:06.556 --> 0:04:09.636 people think that it's that it's a reference to a snake, 0:04:10.156 --> 0:04:14.556 but it turns magically into a living creature. And then 0:04:14.636 --> 0:04:18.556 there's a bit of a battle between the magical creature 0:04:18.636 --> 0:04:22.236 created by Erin's staff and a magical creature created by 0:04:22.476 --> 0:04:25.716 the magicians. But that seems to be the beginning of 0:04:25.756 --> 0:04:32.596 a series of miracle competitions between Moses and Aaron and 0:04:32.916 --> 0:04:37.116 the Egyptians, And so that continues in the exactly the 0:04:37.156 --> 0:04:41.036 same form with the miracle of blood in the Nile 0:04:41.676 --> 0:04:44.996 and in other bodies of water, the miracle of what 0:04:45.036 --> 0:04:47.436 we call the plague of frogs. All of those are 0:04:47.476 --> 0:04:51.036 told in exactly the same sort of language and literary 0:04:51.076 --> 0:04:55.556 structure as that story of Aaron's Staff. You then talked 0:04:55.556 --> 0:05:02.756 about how the Egyptian magicians also perform others of these miracles, 0:05:03.036 --> 0:05:05.676 and there's a kind of face off, as it were, 0:05:05.756 --> 0:05:09.396 between Moses and Aaron and what they're doing, and then 0:05:09.476 --> 0:05:13.196 what the Egyptian experts are doing it their magicians are 0:05:13.196 --> 0:05:16.076 doing can I ask you seen in the light of 0:05:16.236 --> 0:05:20.596 sort of ancient Near Eastern practice or imagination or ideology, 0:05:20.756 --> 0:05:22.756 is there a reason to think that there would be 0:05:23.356 --> 0:05:26.996 some fame associated with the idea of egypt magicians. That's 0:05:27.036 --> 0:05:31.116 a good question. I mean, they're definitely was a very 0:05:32.396 --> 0:05:36.916 robust tradition of magic in Egypt, and we also know 0:05:36.996 --> 0:05:41.836 that there were interactions between magicians from different cultures. So 0:05:41.916 --> 0:05:46.396 sometimes we find spells that are actually transliterated from in 0:05:46.476 --> 0:05:49.796 antiquity from one language to another. So we do know 0:05:49.836 --> 0:05:53.836 that Egypt had a robust tradition of magicians, and we 0:05:53.876 --> 0:05:57.716 do know that there was contact between those magicians and 0:05:58.316 --> 0:06:01.316 magicians elsewhere in the ancient Near East. What you're describing, 0:06:01.396 --> 0:06:02.716 by the way it sounds to me, is like the 0:06:02.756 --> 0:06:05.636 practice of what I like to call ancient plagiarism, Right 0:06:05.756 --> 0:06:09.316 that if I had a good hymn or poem or 0:06:09.436 --> 0:06:12.476 story in my civilization, and you came for another civilization 0:06:12.476 --> 0:06:14.876 and you heard it, you would just copy that story 0:06:15.156 --> 0:06:18.036 or translate that story into your own civilization and maybe 0:06:18.116 --> 0:06:20.756 swap out some of the proper nouns of the gods 0:06:20.836 --> 0:06:23.556 or the kings or the heroes, and then boom, you'd 0:06:23.596 --> 0:06:26.436 have a fresh story of your own. The most famous 0:06:26.476 --> 0:06:28.956 example of this of where stories make their way through 0:06:28.996 --> 0:06:33.476 different ancient civilizations is the flood story, which occurs not 0:06:33.516 --> 0:06:37.116 only in the Bible, but in older sources, ancient Ear 0:06:37.156 --> 0:06:39.916 Eastern Mesopotamian sources as well. Do you happen to know 0:06:39.956 --> 0:06:42.596 off the top of your head whether there are plague 0:06:42.636 --> 0:06:46.156 stories in other ancient Near Eastern traditions or is the 0:06:46.556 --> 0:06:49.716 Biblical story sort of a one off. You definitely do 0:06:49.836 --> 0:06:54.916 have stories of plagues in the ancient Near East. In 0:06:54.996 --> 0:07:00.316 fact that there's also traditions of plagues having occurred in 0:07:00.796 --> 0:07:06.636 each We have ancient Egyptian texts describing things like epidemics. 0:07:07.116 --> 0:07:10.436 The Nile turning to red is something that's described in 0:07:10.556 --> 0:07:13.876 some ancient Egyptian texts. You're saying, there is an ancient 0:07:13.876 --> 0:07:16.676 Egyptian text that has the story where the Nile turns 0:07:16.676 --> 0:07:21.516 read Yes, I'm quite sure that there are Egyptian traditions 0:07:21.556 --> 0:07:25.676 that are not entirely dissimilar. So when one hears that 0:07:25.756 --> 0:07:28.876 there are some ancient Egyptian sources that talk about the 0:07:28.916 --> 0:07:31.196 nile turning red, there are two ways to think about that. 0:07:31.356 --> 0:07:34.476 Roughly speaking, one way is the way that a religious 0:07:34.516 --> 0:07:38.156 traditionalist apologist would They would say, aha, you know, here 0:07:38.196 --> 0:07:40.556 we have some independent evidence that these events might have 0:07:40.596 --> 0:07:43.476 actually happened. And then there's the way that a historian 0:07:43.716 --> 0:07:47.316 or a literary scholar would approach it, which is to say, well, 0:07:47.716 --> 0:07:50.836 this is a trope that existed in the ancient world, 0:07:50.876 --> 0:07:52.396 and if you've got a good story, people like to 0:07:52.396 --> 0:07:54.316 tell that story to each other. And it's not so 0:07:54.316 --> 0:07:57.356 surprising that story would have turned up in multiple different 0:07:57.396 --> 0:08:01.156 literary traditions. I suppose that approach might also leave open 0:08:01.396 --> 0:08:04.596 room for the possibility that there was some natural phenomenon 0:08:05.036 --> 0:08:08.676 that sometimes occurred in Egypt that led to the reddening 0:08:08.716 --> 0:08:11.196 of water. But if there isn't any natural exclination for that, 0:08:11.196 --> 0:08:14.396 that's credible. I'm not aware of it, right, And there 0:08:14.396 --> 0:08:17.156 are various different phenomena that can lead to the reddening 0:08:17.196 --> 0:08:22.356 of waters, you know, from algae to declayed deposits and 0:08:22.396 --> 0:08:25.196 all sorts of things like that. But clearly what's described 0:08:25.916 --> 0:08:28.316 in part of the biblical account where it says that 0:08:28.516 --> 0:08:31.956 it was accompanied by the water became undrinkable and all 0:08:31.996 --> 0:08:34.956 the fish died. I mean, that's a sort of very 0:08:35.036 --> 0:08:40.236 dramatic occurrence that doesn't necessarily align with the presence of algae. 0:08:40.276 --> 0:08:43.396 But but back to your your previous question about ancient 0:08:43.476 --> 0:08:46.356 Near Eastern texts talking about plagues. I mean, we have 0:08:46.436 --> 0:08:50.076 that even in the Bible. Moreover, you know, a really 0:08:50.116 --> 0:08:52.796 interesting text in that regard, I would say, is in 0:08:52.956 --> 0:08:56.596 Deuteronomy twenty eight, where we have a whole series of curses, 0:08:57.156 --> 0:09:03.636 and those curses include reference to an Egyptian disease of 0:09:03.676 --> 0:09:08.836 some sort, says meet sign, so may the Lord strike 0:09:08.916 --> 0:09:13.196 you with the Egyptian boils or something like that. And 0:09:13.236 --> 0:09:15.716 that's in fact one of the plagues described an exodus, 0:09:15.716 --> 0:09:18.476 so that it's not only a mention in the Bible 0:09:19.116 --> 0:09:22.756 of a of a plague of some story, but it's 0:09:22.756 --> 0:09:27.356 even associating this particular one with Egypt. And I don't 0:09:27.356 --> 0:09:29.316 think that it needs to be a reference specifically to 0:09:29.516 --> 0:09:31.956 the plagues as told in the narrative. It could just 0:09:32.036 --> 0:09:34.876 be a disease that's associated with Egypt. You know, some 0:09:34.916 --> 0:09:38.556 people call the coronavirus virus. I'm gonna say it's the 0:09:38.636 --> 0:09:42.676 Chinese virus of its era, the Egyptian boils. Yeah, we'll 0:09:42.716 --> 0:09:53.956 be back in just a moment. Let's turn to some 0:09:54.076 --> 0:09:56.476 more of the concrete plagues now and see if we 0:09:56.516 --> 0:10:00.076 can come up with anything interesting about them. So the frogs, 0:10:00.156 --> 0:10:02.756 I've always been fascinated by the frogs. Essentially, all of 0:10:02.796 --> 0:10:06.916 the other plagues or miracles sound to me sort of 0:10:06.996 --> 0:10:10.396 vaguely plausible. You know, large number of locusts eating everything, 0:10:10.476 --> 0:10:14.436 that happens sometimes in the world. You know, pestilence, animals dying, 0:10:14.596 --> 0:10:19.516 that happens, boils definitely disgusting, and that happens even the darkness, 0:10:19.596 --> 0:10:21.636 which maybe doesn't exactly happen in the way that it's 0:10:21.636 --> 0:10:24.516 depicted in the Biblical text. There are eclipses, and you 0:10:24.516 --> 0:10:28.836 can imagine people extending from that. But the inundation of 0:10:28.876 --> 0:10:31.396 an entire country by frogs has always seen to be 0:10:31.396 --> 0:10:34.156 a little weird and outlying. Do you have any insight 0:10:34.196 --> 0:10:37.716 into that? What's but the frogs? Yeah, I mean, I 0:10:37.756 --> 0:10:41.076 agree with you that frogs taking over a whole country 0:10:41.276 --> 0:10:46.556 sounds relatively implausible, even as a once in a millennium 0:10:46.636 --> 0:10:51.636 sort of event. I'm not an expert on ecology or 0:10:51.716 --> 0:10:53.876 on the habitat of frogs, but my understanding is that 0:10:53.916 --> 0:10:57.236 they're amphibians and don't like to be very far from 0:10:57.396 --> 0:11:00.516 the water. At all. So, assuming that all of Egypt 0:11:01.276 --> 0:11:06.396 didn't become marshland, I'm not sure frogs could have survived 0:11:06.436 --> 0:11:08.676 in the city centers. All right, Well, we'll have to 0:11:08.756 --> 0:11:12.956 leave then as a mystery for the moment. What about 0:11:13.116 --> 0:11:16.836 the plague that in the Hebrew is called arov and 0:11:16.916 --> 0:11:20.916 which usually gets translated in most English translations as a 0:11:21.076 --> 0:11:24.316 mixture of wild animals or something to that effect. The 0:11:24.356 --> 0:11:27.476 word literally means a mixture. If you think of the 0:11:27.556 --> 0:11:31.196 children's picture books of the plagues, you sort of imagine 0:11:31.396 --> 0:11:34.356 lions and tigers and other things walking around, which notably 0:11:34.356 --> 0:11:37.396 are never mentioned in the biblical text. What is this 0:11:37.476 --> 0:11:41.596 confusing plague probably meant to have been in the original context. Yeah, so, 0:11:41.636 --> 0:11:43.916 I mean it's worth pointing out with the question of 0:11:43.916 --> 0:11:47.116 what it means literally. So as you say, the root 0:11:47.476 --> 0:11:52.036 iron leigh bet of this word is something that sometimes 0:11:52.036 --> 0:11:55.556 has connotations of mixture, although that same root other times 0:11:55.596 --> 0:11:59.076 has different connotations. It's the root of the word west, 0:11:59.556 --> 0:12:04.756 and relatedly the root associated with evening, and so it 0:12:04.796 --> 0:12:09.076 has various different meanings that root, And in the case 0:12:10.556 --> 0:12:16.116 of this particular plague, some of the ancient translations suggests 0:12:16.116 --> 0:12:20.756 that this was some sort of insect flying, perhaps not 0:12:21.076 --> 0:12:26.756 entirely dissimilar from the plague of what we call lice 0:12:27.276 --> 0:12:31.436 or keynan in Hebrew. Eton let's fast forward to, as 0:12:31.476 --> 0:12:34.276 it were, the granddaddy of them all, the plague of 0:12:34.316 --> 0:12:37.716 the Death of the Firstborn, which is maybe the most 0:12:38.716 --> 0:12:40.716 maybe I don't know if it's the most Corona appropriate, 0:12:40.756 --> 0:12:44.596 but it's certainly the one that involves the warning that 0:12:44.636 --> 0:12:47.436 people not leave their homes until the day, and so 0:12:47.596 --> 0:12:49.916 there's a there's a little bit of self isolation going 0:12:49.956 --> 0:12:52.996 on at the family level. And it's also the one 0:12:52.996 --> 0:12:55.916 of the plagues, it's most embedded in the story of 0:12:56.116 --> 0:12:59.276 actually the children of Visible getting up and leaving. Why 0:12:59.316 --> 0:13:03.996 do you think the firstborn are so much in play here? 0:13:04.436 --> 0:13:06.596 Why not just you know, a plague that kills off 0:13:07.236 --> 0:13:10.316 all of your offspring, or maybe it's about Pharaoh being 0:13:10.316 --> 0:13:14.316 the king. Any thoughts on the firstborn aspect. Yeah, that's 0:13:14.316 --> 0:13:17.276 a really good question. I think that there's you know, 0:13:17.396 --> 0:13:22.716 something even more impressive about killing just the firstborn then 0:13:22.756 --> 0:13:25.356 say killing everyone. And if you're going to kill anyone, 0:13:25.996 --> 0:13:30.156 then killing the firstborn is really devastating. It really is 0:13:31.076 --> 0:13:37.156 appropriate as a climactic plague in terms of the impact. 0:13:37.236 --> 0:13:40.676 I think that it's it at least feels when when 0:13:40.716 --> 0:13:45.716 I read it, like in a particularly traumatic event. Part 0:13:45.716 --> 0:13:49.196 of that might be totally literary, and that it's it's 0:13:49.196 --> 0:13:53.076 a more expensive description than what we have, say for 0:13:53.076 --> 0:13:56.996 for frogs or life. But there is something about both 0:13:57.156 --> 0:14:01.476 afflicting everyone and like proving the power, proving that this 0:14:01.756 --> 0:14:05.756 isn't just you know, a pandemic, but something that can 0:14:05.796 --> 0:14:09.916 only be the hand of God. In the fact that 0:14:09.996 --> 0:14:15.796 it's just the firstborns who are afflicted, that really shows 0:14:15.836 --> 0:14:18.716 who's in charge. A don I wonder if I could 0:14:18.796 --> 0:14:22.156 close by asking you a more personal question, and it's this. 0:14:22.956 --> 0:14:26.596 You know, you maintain a traditional Jewish practice. You know, 0:14:26.676 --> 0:14:28.956 you go to the synagogue, you perform the rituals, you 0:14:29.076 --> 0:14:33.716 keep the Sabbath, and you're also brilliant and path breaking 0:14:33.876 --> 0:14:39.596 Bible scholar who engages with the Biblical narratives as historical artifacts. 0:14:39.956 --> 0:14:42.556 When you think about Passover, do you draw a line. 0:14:42.596 --> 0:14:44.436 Do you think, well, if the Passover state or I'll 0:14:44.436 --> 0:14:47.156 talk like a traditionalist, or do you think no, like 0:14:47.196 --> 0:14:49.116 this is how I tell the story of the pastor 0:14:49.236 --> 0:14:51.596 you know, the rabbi say, whoever says more about the 0:14:51.636 --> 0:14:54.876 telling of the Passover story deserves praise is a your 0:14:54.916 --> 0:14:57.236 review for yourself at least that telling more about the 0:14:57.236 --> 0:15:00.076 Passover story includes the kind of historical analysis that we 0:15:00.076 --> 0:15:04.996 were just doing. For me personally, it does. These are 0:15:05.036 --> 0:15:09.276 the things that I enjoy. I delight in reading the 0:15:09.316 --> 0:15:14.236 texts critically, in thinking about the historical contexts, and you know, 0:15:14.356 --> 0:15:18.316 the actual historical events that may or may not be 0:15:18.596 --> 0:15:23.796 reflected in these texts and traditions. So I grew up 0:15:24.076 --> 0:15:28.996 like my parents and grandparents doing the Passover Sater every year, 0:15:29.036 --> 0:15:33.716 and it's extremely important to me and part of my heritage. 0:15:34.436 --> 0:15:39.676 But I do like to ask questions, and that, you 0:15:39.716 --> 0:15:43.196 know that, famously is one of the points of the 0:15:43.236 --> 0:15:46.956 Passover Sater is to have you know, the children ask questions. 0:15:46.996 --> 0:15:51.996 And I haven't grown out of that, and and so 0:15:52.116 --> 0:15:55.276 every year I do like to think about the problems 0:15:55.356 --> 0:16:00.436 and the complications and the evolution of the different traditions 0:16:00.476 --> 0:16:04.556 and the multiplicity of traditions. In fact, you know, a 0:16:04.596 --> 0:16:07.876 wonderful thing is that you know, one of the elements, 0:16:07.876 --> 0:16:11.516 one of the central elements of the Passover Sater is 0:16:12.316 --> 0:16:18.676 you know, this sort of codified question asking. And so 0:16:20.676 --> 0:16:24.716 to me, these you know there are layers upon layers 0:16:24.756 --> 0:16:28.196 of questions. You know, the Passover Stater is designed to 0:16:28.276 --> 0:16:33.316 inspire questions, and even the questions that are being asked 0:16:33.756 --> 0:16:36.476 have questions that can be asked about them, and that's 0:16:36.556 --> 0:16:39.956 my favorite part of the Passoversader. Well, I appreciate it, 0:16:39.996 --> 0:16:42.036 Don that you're giving us a version of the Passover 0:16:42.076 --> 0:16:46.516 Sader where it is the origin of your engagement with 0:16:46.516 --> 0:16:49.796 the Biblical criticism. So I appreciate that very much. I'm 0:16:49.876 --> 0:16:52.716 very grateful to Dan for joining me for our special 0:16:52.836 --> 0:16:56.756 Passover episode. I know you're working on some very big things, 0:16:57.196 --> 0:16:59.876 and with any luck, when those are published, we'll have 0:16:59.956 --> 0:17:02.836 you back to report on those other projects too. Thank 0:17:02.876 --> 0:17:06.276 you very much for joining me. Thank you. Talking to 0:17:06.476 --> 0:17:09.956 Dan made me feel ready to try, in a limited 0:17:09.996 --> 0:17:12.676 sort of way, to re engage some of that tradition 0:17:12.716 --> 0:17:14.636 and some of that ritual in the form of a 0:17:14.676 --> 0:17:17.276 Passover Sader. I hope it had that effect for you, 0:17:17.516 --> 0:17:21.796 whether you're celebrating Passover, Easter or none of the above. 0:17:22.516 --> 0:17:24.956 Until the next time I talk to you, be careful, 0:17:25.356 --> 0:17:29.796 be safe, be well, and enjoy whatever holidays work for you. 0:17:32.036 --> 0:17:34.996 Deep Background is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our 0:17:35.036 --> 0:17:38.996 producer is Lydia gene Coott, with research help from zooe Wynn. 0:17:39.476 --> 0:17:43.116 Mastering is by Jason Gambrell and Martin Gonzalez. Our showrunner 0:17:43.196 --> 0:17:46.436 is Sophie mckibbon. Our theme music is composed by Luis Guerra. 0:17:46.956 --> 0:17:50.596 Special thanks to the Pushkin Brass, Malcolm Gladwell, Jacob Weisberg, 0:17:50.636 --> 0:17:53.876 and Mia Lobel. I'm Noah Feldman. I also write a 0:17:53.876 --> 0:17:56.516 regular column for Bloomberg Opinion, which you can find at 0:17:56.556 --> 0:18:00.876 bloomberg dot com Slash Feldman. To discover Bloomberg's original slate 0:18:00.916 --> 0:18:05.196 of podcasts, go to Bloomberg dot com slash Podcasts. You 0:18:05.196 --> 0:18:08.436 can follow me on Twitter at Noah R. Feldman. This 0:18:08.756 --> 0:18:09.636 is deep ban