1
00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:14,160
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. As Deborah Stevens suv filled

2
00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:17,080
Speaker 1: with water, she made a frantic call to nine one

3
00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:24,160
Speaker 1: one away after my windows, but her desperation didn't seem

4
00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:27,000
Speaker 1: to make any difference to the dispatcher on the other

5
00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:36,240
Speaker 1: end of the call. I'm sorry. The Fort Smith, Arkansas

6
00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:40,320
Speaker 1: woman was delivering newspapers when she told dispatcher Donna re

7
00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:43,919
Speaker 1: No she was swept away in flash flood waters. She

8
00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:50,440
Speaker 1: couldn't swim. I'm scared. I've never had anything before. You'll

9
00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:53,920
Speaker 1: teach you next time. Don't drive in the water. Wouldn't

10
00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:57,200
Speaker 1: see it? I'm sorrier. I wouldn't. I don't see how

11
00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:59,320
Speaker 1: you didn't see it. You had to go right over it.

12
00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:04,959
Speaker 1: What an evil woman? Did you hear? The woman who,

13
00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:09,880
Speaker 1: by the way, drowned in her car and as she's

14
00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:13,400
Speaker 1: drowning in the water is filling up her suv. I mean,

15
00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:16,200
Speaker 1: think about it. I've had to get up super early

16
00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:18,200
Speaker 1: in the morning to get to work. I mean, you know,

17
00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:22,000
Speaker 1: Jason Oceans Newort defense lawyer was with me. I would

18
00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:24,280
Speaker 1: have to get up at about four am in the

19
00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:28,840
Speaker 1: morning to be at court TV at seven. Bright eye

20
00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:31,160
Speaker 1: and bushey tails and full of hair and makeup to

21
00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:33,840
Speaker 1: hit the airwaves for a morning shift. And you were

22
00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,560
Speaker 1: there with me many times, Jason Oceans. It ain't easy.

23
00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:41,280
Speaker 1: This woman getting up to deliver papers in the dark

24
00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:47,320
Speaker 1: morning hours accidentally drives into water. Her car is filling up,

25
00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:53,320
Speaker 1: and the nine one operator is so rude and brates her.

26
00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:58,640
Speaker 1: The woman who's blubbering and crying says, I'm sorry. I mean,

27
00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,400
Speaker 1: see Grace, this is crime stories. Thank you for being

28
00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:04,400
Speaker 1: with us. I think the night one one operator I'd

29
00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:06,800
Speaker 1: to go to jail myself, but I want you to

30
00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:10,400
Speaker 1: hear it from the horse's mouth. Take a listen to

31
00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:17,400
Speaker 1: the nine one one operator Donna Renaut, who's listening and

32
00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:23,160
Speaker 1: berating Deborah Stevens as she drowns dead. One where your virgency.

33
00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:26,280
Speaker 1: I don't want the emergency as the various emergency. I'm

34
00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:28,919
Speaker 1: in a flooding. My car bart off the road while

35
00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:31,200
Speaker 1: during my newspapers and I'm floating over here on the

36
00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:33,400
Speaker 1: end of King Kid and it's all a bad through

37
00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:35,480
Speaker 1: my windows and I can't get out, and I'm scared

38
00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:37,480
Speaker 1: to death. Ma'am, hey, can you please help me? What

39
00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:39,280
Speaker 1: do you? I need you to calm down. I need

40
00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:41,800
Speaker 1: to tell me where you are? I want me. I

41
00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:43,679
Speaker 1: don't know, ma'am. I want to end of kN K

42
00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:46,079
Speaker 1: down here body the department. This is an apartments from

43
00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:50,560
Speaker 1: King Dad. I don't know what They're all on the

44
00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:52,560
Speaker 1: other side of kN K. That's the very end of

45
00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:56,040
Speaker 1: ten K Street. There's an apartments. And I thought a

46
00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:58,840
Speaker 1: dark blue car is what I'm asking you? What color

47
00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:02,200
Speaker 1: is your vehicle? Here? Dark? It's gray v laning. The

48
00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:05,920
Speaker 1: water dog went in my window. Okay, hold on for me,

49
00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,800
Speaker 1: don't hang up. And it's coming in my windows. I mean,

50
00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:12,360
Speaker 1: I'm pulling in water right now, mandam. Yes, ma'am. I

51
00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:14,680
Speaker 1: need help right now. I'm I'm, I'm I'm soaking wet

52
00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:16,400
Speaker 1: it I'm sick and I can't. I want to what

53
00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:20,840
Speaker 1: to do, ma'am? Okay, what's your name? Nebbe Steve? Squeezing hell? Man,

54
00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,119
Speaker 1: I don't want to die. They're not gonna die. Hold

55
00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:28,040
Speaker 1: on from well. I need I'm stand. I'm sorry. I

56
00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:29,960
Speaker 1: didn't know the water. I couldn't give me the water

57
00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:31,919
Speaker 1: when I came upon it. Man, it just all of

58
00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:34,160
Speaker 1: a sudden, he hit me. Oh, and that is just

59
00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:39,440
Speaker 1: the tip of the iceberg. To leave my page Crime

60
00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:43,480
Speaker 1: Online dot com investigative reporter with me, doctor Robbie Ludwig,

61
00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:47,120
Speaker 1: you see are all over the TV screens, psychologist and

62
00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:52,240
Speaker 1: Facebook live show host from Times Square, the medical examiner

63
00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:56,640
Speaker 1: for the State of Florida, Doctor Tim Gallagher, FBI special agent,

64
00:03:56,680 --> 00:04:01,920
Speaker 1: former Jeff Cortesi, renowned defense attorney Jay send Oceans what

65
00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:05,680
Speaker 1: a big mass, doctor Tim Gallagher, let's just kick it

66
00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:09,160
Speaker 1: off with you. How long does it take an adult

67
00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:14,120
Speaker 1: to drown? Well, that's a very good question, Nancy. It

68
00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:17,520
Speaker 1: really really varies depending on their health and if they

69
00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:20,120
Speaker 1: have any problems with their lungs or any other diseases.

70
00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:23,920
Speaker 1: But I would say, on the average, we know that

71
00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:29,760
Speaker 1: irreversible brain damage occurs after three minutes of not being

72
00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:34,680
Speaker 1: able to breathe, So for someone to enter into the

73
00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:37,560
Speaker 1: water and be declared dead would probably take a little

74
00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,680
Speaker 1: over three minutes. And this took a period of time,

75
00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:43,760
Speaker 1: did it not? To Leavipage Crime Online dot com investigative reporter,

76
00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:47,400
Speaker 1: as I understand it, please correct me if I'm wrong,

77
00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:50,400
Speaker 1: which I know you love to do, Levi page and

78
00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:54,320
Speaker 1: I give you plenty of opportunity. LEVI, didn't this call

79
00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:59,640
Speaker 1: take twenty four minutes before the dispatcher could get EMTs there. Yes,

80
00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:02,000
Speaker 1: she was on the phone for twenty four minutes with

81
00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:09,560
Speaker 1: the dispatcher. M awful, awful. Jason notions a defense attorney.

82
00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,560
Speaker 1: She may need a defense attorney because, as far as

83
00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:16,680
Speaker 1: I'm concerned, the way she treated this dying drowning victim,

84
00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:18,920
Speaker 1: a woman who's out trying to make a few extra

85
00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:25,600
Speaker 1: dollars delivering papers in the dark morning hours, I think

86
00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:27,640
Speaker 1: she ought to go to jail myself. Jason, USh, just

87
00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:32,680
Speaker 1: what stopping it. That's a much higher standard. You would

88
00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:35,520
Speaker 1: have to associate with her directly with its heat, and

89
00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:39,960
Speaker 1: according to the transcripts dispatched right away, no one would

90
00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:42,600
Speaker 1: take away from her callousness and the fact that Miss

91
00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:47,400
Speaker 1: Stevens lost her life. It certainly exemplifies the lack of

92
00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:51,279
Speaker 1: humanity that this dispatcher had on her last day of work,

93
00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:54,719
Speaker 1: last dispatch. I don't know that it necessarily rises to

94
00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:59,159
Speaker 1: a level of criminality. Certainly a civil lawsuit against the

95
00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:01,200
Speaker 1: city as possible. You know what, why why are you

96
00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:04,880
Speaker 1: talking like that? Yeah, Jason, you know that I love you.

97
00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:07,360
Speaker 1: I love your beautiful wife who used to I think

98
00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:11,960
Speaker 1: booked me on MSNBC. I love your two children. But Jason,

99
00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:15,479
Speaker 1: you sound like one of those no offense Jason obnoxious

100
00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,160
Speaker 1: lawyers used to be trapped with him on the elevator,

101
00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:21,960
Speaker 1: and I just love the way they would talk and

102
00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:26,440
Speaker 1: blah blah blah and throwing a few Latin phrases, just

103
00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,880
Speaker 1: blah blah. Cut it, cut dummy down for me. Well,

104
00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:33,200
Speaker 1: it's got a rise to a certain level of you know,

105
00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:38,240
Speaker 1: intent or or in lacking intent, something so egregious like

106
00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:42,240
Speaker 1: a criminally next, I'm twenty four minutes. That's how long

107
00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:45,119
Speaker 1: she was on the phone. But I've got twenty four

108
00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:49,400
Speaker 1: minutes when five they had a hard time binding her. Nancy,

109
00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:53,720
Speaker 1: I was a bad born exactly locat herself. Well, for

110
00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:56,000
Speaker 1: what I understood when the MTS got there, they can

111
00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:58,520
Speaker 1: still see your dome lights in the car, says, a

112
00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:00,840
Speaker 1: pretty good indicator of where she was. And the car

113
00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:02,719
Speaker 1: would have been above the water when they saw the

114
00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:07,400
Speaker 1: dome lights or Robbie Ludwig psychologists, Why are people so

115
00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:11,760
Speaker 1: afraid of death by drowning? Well, death by drowning is

116
00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:15,080
Speaker 1: very painful. I mean to not be able to breathe,

117
00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:17,680
Speaker 1: to have that moment, to know that your life is

118
00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:22,800
Speaker 1: slipping away from you, is absolutely panic inducing. And it's

119
00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:24,880
Speaker 1: one of the things we hear all the time that

120
00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,640
Speaker 1: drowning is a silent death. So not only are we

121
00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:31,440
Speaker 1: afraid of it for ourselves, but we are afraid of

122
00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,800
Speaker 1: it on behalf of other people. Instinctually. I think, what

123
00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:38,400
Speaker 1: your last word really to me? Hit the nail on

124
00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:43,400
Speaker 1: the head, instinctually, because we are not meant to be,

125
00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:50,360
Speaker 1: you know, by our nature underwater, where people don't have

126
00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:52,760
Speaker 1: that same fear of falling off the top of the

127
00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:56,840
Speaker 1: house or a car crash. There's something about death by

128
00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:03,320
Speaker 1: drowning that it just volks and instinctive fear. I want

129
00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:07,520
Speaker 1: you to listen to more of the nine one one call.

130
00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:15,360
Speaker 1: No money me, am, I not on the I'm sorry,

131
00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:40,080
Speaker 1: king out crime stories with Nancy Grace. No money me am,

132
00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:41,439
Speaker 1: I not on the phone with you trying to get

133
00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:49,960
Speaker 1: you some help. Yeah, I'm sorry king out. It's okay.

134
00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:53,000
Speaker 1: I know the water level am high. I understand that,

135
00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:55,840
Speaker 1: but you free out do happen? But loving your oxygen

136
00:08:55,920 --> 00:09:01,200
Speaker 1: up in there? But ann get me, you said, I'm sorry.

137
00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:03,440
Speaker 1: Where are they gonna be here as soon as they

138
00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:07,680
Speaker 1: get there? Or that wouldn't be even very dying? I

139
00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:12,040
Speaker 1: know man, We're phone's gonna die and I'm not gonna

140
00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:16,240
Speaker 1: find men brand new final Do you really care about

141
00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:18,280
Speaker 1: your brand new phone? I mean you're there crying for

142
00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:22,559
Speaker 1: your life. Who cares about your phone? I mean it's

143
00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:25,800
Speaker 1: right now. Well, then you're in water. You can throw up.

144
00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:27,320
Speaker 1: It's not gonna matter. If you got to throw up

145
00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,400
Speaker 1: on yourself, they will help you. Oh my card, it's

146
00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,720
Speaker 1: gonna get them fire. How if it's underwater? What an

147
00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:42,199
Speaker 1: evil woman? That is? EMT dispatched Donna Renault talking to

148
00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:45,760
Speaker 1: Deborah Stevens out trying to deliver papers in the dark

149
00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:52,720
Speaker 1: early morning hours. They're at Fort Smith, Arkansas. She drowned.

150
00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:57,480
Speaker 1: She drowned, begging for help, but she was unable to

151
00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:00,800
Speaker 1: get out of her car. To Jeff Cortesi, former FBI

152
00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:04,360
Speaker 1: special agent, how are you supposed to get out of

153
00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:08,600
Speaker 1: your car if it goes underwater? You know there are

154
00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:12,640
Speaker 1: classes you can take to become proficient at getting out

155
00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:16,480
Speaker 1: of your car while underwater. But you know, if you

156
00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,760
Speaker 1: just mentally prepare and go through a checklist, you can

157
00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:24,040
Speaker 1: actually anybody can actually do it under the right circumstances.

158
00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:26,320
Speaker 1: So you know, the first thing you want to do

159
00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:30,200
Speaker 1: is open your window as quickly as you can, keeping

160
00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:33,360
Speaker 1: your seat belt on while the car is filling up,

161
00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:36,080
Speaker 1: so the seat belt will serve kind of as an anchor,

162
00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:39,000
Speaker 1: holding you in place. As the water begins to fill

163
00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:40,720
Speaker 1: up the car, You're not gonna be able to open

164
00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:44,040
Speaker 1: up the door while the water is flooding in. There's

165
00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:45,679
Speaker 1: gonna be too much pressure on the outside, So the

166
00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:48,520
Speaker 1: vehicle actually has to fill up with water before you're

167
00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:50,600
Speaker 1: gonna be able to open up that door so that

168
00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:54,920
Speaker 1: the pressure can be equalized on each side. Prior to

169
00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:57,640
Speaker 1: I guess the water reaching probably your chin level, you

170
00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:01,040
Speaker 1: want to start either cutting away or unbuck clicking your seatbelt.

171
00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:05,160
Speaker 1: Holding onto the steering wheel is kind of a leverage

172
00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:07,880
Speaker 1: to force yourself out of the car. But once that

173
00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:10,880
Speaker 1: water equalizes inside the car, you know, you hold your breath,

174
00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:13,640
Speaker 1: get that car door open, or go through the window

175
00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:16,640
Speaker 1: after the car is full, and that deep breath that

176
00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:19,679
Speaker 1: you take is going to basically serve as a kind

177
00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:21,640
Speaker 1: of a balloon that'll pull your body to the top

178
00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:25,000
Speaker 1: of the water. You know, he's absolutely right, Jeff Cortiz.

179
00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:27,880
Speaker 1: He's very, very difficult to do. But the first thing

180
00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:31,720
Speaker 1: you're supposed to do if you can is open the

181
00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:35,560
Speaker 1: window as quickly as possible before you hit the water,

182
00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:42,120
Speaker 1: if you can, or immediately after. Stay completely still until

183
00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:44,080
Speaker 1: the water and the car goes up to your chin.

184
00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:50,520
Speaker 1: Take several slow breaths, hold one. Don't try to open

185
00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:54,560
Speaker 1: the door until the water has stopped flooding, because there's

186
00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:57,600
Speaker 1: about six hundred pounds of pressure or per square inch,

187
00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:01,920
Speaker 1: meaning you can't get it open from the inside. So

188
00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:05,400
Speaker 1: long story short, that pressure should equalize and then you

189
00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:10,560
Speaker 1: try to get out. Now, we always carry something in

190
00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:15,560
Speaker 1: our cars under the seat that we can smash out

191
00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,959
Speaker 1: a window. Now here's the thing about that. The water's

192
00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,600
Speaker 1: gonna flood in, So once you smash out the window,

193
00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:25,360
Speaker 1: you're gonna be fighting like water coming in like from

194
00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:29,439
Speaker 1: a fire hydrant. It's gonna be very hard. But we

195
00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:33,000
Speaker 1: keep something inside our car. It can be a hammer,

196
00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:36,280
Speaker 1: it can be anything like that to smash out the

197
00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:40,000
Speaker 1: window to get out, just in case we get in water.

198
00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:45,320
Speaker 1: The issue here is not how she could have gotten

199
00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:48,880
Speaker 1: out of the water. The issue here is a rude,

200
00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:54,680
Speaker 1: cruel despatch officer Donna Renault, the nine one one operator

201
00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:59,480
Speaker 1: callously lecturing a drowning woman telling her to quote shut

202
00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:05,040
Speaker 1: up before she died. Oh, listen, between both apartment complexes

203
00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:08,400
Speaker 1: on this street, at the dead end, in the very

204
00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:15,960
Speaker 1: backsideree right there, Jay, don't want at the end the

205
00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:19,400
Speaker 1: backside of these apartments over here were these people out.

206
00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:25,080
Speaker 1: They can all see there. You're gonna have to shut up. Okay, okay,

207
00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:31,160
Speaker 1: um Hello, did you hear that, doctor, Robbie Ludwig, You're

208
00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:33,120
Speaker 1: gonna have to shut up? Did you hear that? We

209
00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:35,240
Speaker 1: don't even say the S word in our home. This

210
00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:39,720
Speaker 1: is so painful to hear because the degree of callousness

211
00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:44,560
Speaker 1: that this dispatcher is showing is just unimaginable. I mean,

212
00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:48,400
Speaker 1: it's very easy to identify with this poor victim who

213
00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:53,000
Speaker 1: truly is about to die and there is zero empathy,

214
00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,439
Speaker 1: and to hear that being played out in a truly

215
00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:01,360
Speaker 1: tragic situation is just so terrific. It really is. And

216
00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:04,160
Speaker 1: it's hard to know whether part of it has to

217
00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:09,520
Speaker 1: do with this woman, this dispatcher being unwilling to acknowledge

218
00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:12,880
Speaker 1: the vulnerability that she has in terms of the situation

219
00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:15,720
Speaker 1: and trying to save this woman, or just she is

220
00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:19,120
Speaker 1: so burned out that she has no feeling at all

221
00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:23,360
Speaker 1: that she is completely desensitized to other people's pain, which

222
00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:25,360
Speaker 1: at that point you really need to get yourself out

223
00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:27,720
Speaker 1: of that kind of job. Yeah, I agree with you

224
00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:30,440
Speaker 1: three hundred percent on getting out of the job. I

225
00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:34,840
Speaker 1: want to go to doctor Tim Gallagher, the medical examiner

226
00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:39,040
Speaker 1: for the State of Florida. Doctor Gallagher, what happens to

227
00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:41,800
Speaker 1: a person when they are drowning and we know she's

228
00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,520
Speaker 1: not struggling because she's sitting there with her seat belt on. Oh,

229
00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:46,720
Speaker 1: there's a long series of things that happen once the

230
00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:49,720
Speaker 1: lungs start filling up with water. So not only do

231
00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:52,040
Speaker 1: the lungs fill up with water, but people tend to

232
00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:57,960
Speaker 1: swallow the water too in their panic while they're drowning. Eventually,

233
00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:02,520
Speaker 1: the lungs will stop feeding oxygen to the brain and

234
00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:09,680
Speaker 1: the brain will go into irreversible type damage and the

235
00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:12,840
Speaker 1: body will start to seize. So the body will probably

236
00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,120
Speaker 1: start to seize for about fifteen or thirty seconds afterwards,

237
00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:23,360
Speaker 1: and at that point CPR would be just useful in

238
00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:27,120
Speaker 1: probably bringing them at support after that, So, after about

239
00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:31,760
Speaker 1: three or four minutes underwater, the brain will have irreversible

240
00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:35,800
Speaker 1: brain damage, the body will start to seize, and chances

241
00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:40,240
Speaker 1: of a full and meaningful recovery are certainly decreased. Okay,

242
00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:43,160
Speaker 1: could you explain what you're saying in regular people talk,

243
00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:47,280
Speaker 1: chances for a meaningful recovery, what does that mean? Well,

244
00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:49,160
Speaker 1: for them to go back to their normal life. For

245
00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:51,880
Speaker 1: her to go back to driving a car and delivering

246
00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:57,280
Speaker 1: papers is very, very, very unlikely. She would probably suffer

247
00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:02,400
Speaker 1: long term events, a long term effects of the near drowning.

248
00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:06,800
Speaker 1: She would have permanent brain damage. She may be reliant

249
00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:12,400
Speaker 1: on a breathing machine or life saving equipment just to

250
00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:18,160
Speaker 1: keep her alive. Oh man, oh man, you know Jason Otions,

251
00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:22,200
Speaker 1: federal defense attorney, trial lawyer in the Tri State area

252
00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:26,160
Speaker 1: joining me out of New York. Jason Otions, you're telling

253
00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:30,600
Speaker 1: me this NIMA one operator cannot be prosecuted criminally, but

254
00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:35,120
Speaker 1: I think she can be prosecuted civilly or not prosecuted

255
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,840
Speaker 1: but have a civil suit against her for intentional infliction

256
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:43,880
Speaker 1: of emotional distress. Now I know the victim is passed away.

257
00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:48,200
Speaker 1: She's dead. The nine one one operator listened as she drowned.

258
00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:49,880
Speaker 1: We're not playing that part of the nine on one

259
00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:53,320
Speaker 1: call today, so I know that she's not alive to

260
00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:57,600
Speaker 1: get any benefits, any monetary benefits. But not only could

261
00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:00,040
Speaker 1: the nine on one operator Donner a Nobis suit, so

262
00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:05,639
Speaker 1: could the police department, UM, the local municipality, the state.

263
00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:10,040
Speaker 1: I don't even know who all could be sued. My

264
00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:12,960
Speaker 1: concern is that she's dead. There would not be any

265
00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:18,080
Speaker 1: monetary benefit to her, maybe to her family because now

266
00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:23,800
Speaker 1: they're hearing this and they're being emotionally tortured. What about that,

267
00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,960
Speaker 1: Jason Oceans, Well, Nancy, you're you're, you're, you're spun on

268
00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,080
Speaker 1: for a for a former prosecutor. Certainly on the civil

269
00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:34,600
Speaker 1: side of it, it would be a wrongful deaf action. Uh.

270
00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:38,000
Speaker 1: The estates certainly could benefit that for that. Uh. I

271
00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:40,720
Speaker 1: don't know she had family directly, but certainly any of

272
00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:43,640
Speaker 1: her errors or someone who stepped up to the administrator,

273
00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:47,080
Speaker 1: they would they would certainly benefit. Uh. You know, question

274
00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:52,119
Speaker 1: of qualified immunity to the U, to the municipality. But

275
00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:55,080
Speaker 1: you would sue, You would sue them all. You'd name

276
00:17:55,440 --> 00:18:00,239
Speaker 1: the dispatcher, the police department, as you said, the state. Uh.

277
00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:02,960
Speaker 1: And doctor Robbie Ludwood brings up a great point. If

278
00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:05,840
Speaker 1: she was so burnt out that she was so callous

279
00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:10,600
Speaker 1: at this point and we hear the callousness, and it's chilling.

280
00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:14,399
Speaker 1: You know at that point, who who was there to

281
00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,919
Speaker 1: step in? She was already retiring or being let go,

282
00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:21,320
Speaker 1: whatever the underlying circumstances are, and that's critical too to

283
00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:23,720
Speaker 1: see if she was allowed to retire and this was

284
00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:25,439
Speaker 1: her last shift or she was just being let go

285
00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:28,760
Speaker 1: based on evaluation and she was burnt out. So there's

286
00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:32,520
Speaker 1: some really good critical questions in terms of a civil suit,

287
00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:36,440
Speaker 1: and Discovery would flesh that out. But my my, my lord,

288
00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:40,359
Speaker 1: this is just it's just difficult, very difficult to listen

289
00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:43,919
Speaker 1: to knowing the end result. It's just it tears your

290
00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:46,560
Speaker 1: heart up. And I bet a jury would agree with you. Yeah,

291
00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:49,240
Speaker 1: I'd like to be on the Plantiff side on this case.

292
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:11,600
Speaker 1: Climb stories with Nancy grace Man. It's getting on last

293
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:14,639
Speaker 1: in my chest, and I know the water their chests

294
00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:16,199
Speaker 1: to stay on this song with me. And I have

295
00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,680
Speaker 1: an officer, I have an officer in the fire department

296
00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:21,439
Speaker 1: coming out to you said just hold on, thank you.

297
00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:24,600
Speaker 1: I'm sorry from Mars and I'm scared. I'm here and

298
00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:26,520
Speaker 1: I know you're scared. Just calm down the corner. I'm

299
00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:30,119
Speaker 1: just scared. I've never had anything like this. Happen before.

300
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:31,840
Speaker 1: This will take you. I will teach you next time.

301
00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:34,920
Speaker 1: Don't drive in the water. I couldn't see it, making

302
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:37,919
Speaker 1: I wouldn't. I don't see how you didn't see it.

303
00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,400
Speaker 1: You had to go right over it. So no, maam,

304
00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:42,720
Speaker 1: I'm only get a drunk. I was in the parking lots.

305
00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:45,840
Speaker 1: There was no water where I was at, okay, But

306
00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:47,240
Speaker 1: when I got to the end of the parking and

307
00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:48,880
Speaker 1: I was looking for the road to get out into

308
00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:50,560
Speaker 1: the main road. When I got to the main road,

309
00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,000
Speaker 1: it was too late. There was water lighting. I couldn't

310
00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:57,920
Speaker 1: see it enough. The water just didn't appear. A callous

311
00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,679
Speaker 1: nine one one dispatcher lecturers a drowning woman, telling her

312
00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:04,919
Speaker 1: to shut up and asking do you care that much

313
00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:08,480
Speaker 1: about your cell phone? And the water just didn't appear,

314
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:18,199
Speaker 1: really belittling her, rebuking her as she died. It's overwhelming

315
00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:22,439
Speaker 1: to me. Deborah Stevens drowned as she drove into floodwaters

316
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:25,240
Speaker 1: and Fort Smith, Arkansas, out in the early morning hours

317
00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:28,080
Speaker 1: and the dark, delivering newspapers trying to make ends meet.

318
00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:30,720
Speaker 1: She calls ninety one one, begging for help, but she

319
00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:34,320
Speaker 1: couldn't get out of her car Donna Renault, who has

320
00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:39,679
Speaker 1: since resigned as a Fort Smith Police Department dispatcher unfortunately,

321
00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,040
Speaker 1: was the one to answer her call at for thirty

322
00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:44,520
Speaker 1: eight a m. We have managed to get ahold of

323
00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:49,119
Speaker 1: that audio. We're not playing the portion of it where

324
00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:54,520
Speaker 1: miss Stevens dies. She drowns, of course. Now police are

325
00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:57,760
Speaker 1: saying they are investigating its policies into responses and the

326
00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:04,640
Speaker 1: dispatch center, but Stevens is dead. Now. Amazing to me

327
00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:07,560
Speaker 1: that this woman claims she truly cares about her job

328
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,840
Speaker 1: and about people, because it sure doesn't sound like it.

329
00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,399
Speaker 1: And another issue, did you hear this LEVI page with

330
00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:19,280
Speaker 1: me Crime online dot com investigative reporter. The victim, Deborah Stevens,

331
00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,399
Speaker 1: out delivering newspaper says, all these people are standing around

332
00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:26,359
Speaker 1: watching her drown. What are they doing? They're in an

333
00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:28,520
Speaker 1: apartment complex. And then she says that they're on their

334
00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,159
Speaker 1: balcony watching her, and she said she thought it was rude.

335
00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:36,720
Speaker 1: But the dispatcher donser, like you have again belittling her

336
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:39,480
Speaker 1: and Nancy, you know, you're talking about how you think

337
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:43,240
Speaker 1: there could be criminal charges. But the Fort Smith Police Chief,

338
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:46,520
Speaker 1: Danny Baker, has made comments and said that this didn't

339
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:49,680
Speaker 1: even rise to the level of firing her, he says,

340
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:53,840
Speaker 1: quote the manner that she spoke during this conversation would

341
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,560
Speaker 1: have probably been addressed, but would have been more of

342
00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:00,119
Speaker 1: a rudeness quality type service complaint. I don't think it

343
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:02,760
Speaker 1: would have risen to the level of terminating, Oh please,

344
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,800
Speaker 1: are you kidding me? A service complaint? Leavi Page. I

345
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:08,080
Speaker 1: can't believe even said that that. You even quoted that

346
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,119
Speaker 1: to me? Oh yeah, he said it, not me. You

347
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,560
Speaker 1: know what this reminds me of. This reminds me of

348
00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:18,040
Speaker 1: the notorious case the rape and stabbing of a twenty

349
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,840
Speaker 1: eight year old woman. And I learned about her in

350
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,440
Speaker 1: law school. Her name Kitty Genovic, stabbed multiple times in

351
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:28,360
Speaker 1: the apartment building across the street where she lived, Okay,

352
00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:32,600
Speaker 1: in Q Gardens. I remember the New York Times publishing

353
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:36,320
Speaker 1: an article about it. Thirty eight witnesses saw or heard

354
00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:40,400
Speaker 1: the attack. Not one of them came to her, aid

355
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:46,520
Speaker 1: or called police. Now, the horrific attack on her became

356
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:49,960
Speaker 1: known as a quote bystand or effect or that Genevic

357
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 1: syndrome named after Kitty Genavic. Now let me ask you this, Dotor,

358
00:22:55,359 --> 00:23:00,640
Speaker 1: Robbie Ludwig, why were all these people standing around doing nothing.

359
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:03,639
Speaker 1: I mean, they could have at least tried, even if

360
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,600
Speaker 1: they were not successfully. I need a shrink. It really

361
00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 1: is hard to imagine. I mean, I suppose one there

362
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:13,320
Speaker 1: is the bystander effect where people don't want to get

363
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:17,320
Speaker 1: involved and put themselves in harm's way, or for some

364
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:21,640
Speaker 1: reason they were just frozen by their own panic and

365
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,480
Speaker 1: fear that if they were to get involved it would

366
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:26,919
Speaker 1: not have helped and then they would have been in danger.

367
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:31,760
Speaker 1: But it is just really painful. And on top of this,

368
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,120
Speaker 1: this woman who was drowning was so kind. It should

369
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 1: have been the opposite way where the dispatcher was kind,

370
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 1: but this woman who was drowning was so kind. I

371
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 1: mean to say that these people watching her were rude,

372
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,639
Speaker 1: it's really something more than that. So here we have

373
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:49,920
Speaker 1: somebody who truly is an innocent and people are not

374
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:54,439
Speaker 1: getting involved the way they should, and it's you know,

375
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,479
Speaker 1: to hear this, it is trauma inducing for anyone listening

376
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:00,720
Speaker 1: to this. And you make an amazing point that this

377
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:05,680
Speaker 1: poor family has to hear their beloved daughter or wife

378
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:08,439
Speaker 1: or you know, whatever she whatever role she was in

379
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:12,479
Speaker 1: the family, just having these painful final moments and not

380
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,240
Speaker 1: being treated well. Now I'm being told that the people

381
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 1: in the apartment complex could not reach her because of

382
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 1: the water. I find that really hard to believe. Also,

383
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:27,080
Speaker 1: nobody even tried to reach her. Take a listen to this.

384
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 1: At five AMS, the nine one one call is disconnected

385
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:36,639
Speaker 1: and rescuers aren't now in the water. Tonight, the four

386
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 1: sminth Police interim chief is speaking out about the dispatcher's call,

387
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,280
Speaker 1: saying he listened to it and that it is less

388
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:46,399
Speaker 1: than desirable. Now, we'll say the manner that she spoke

389
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 1: during this conversation would probably have been addressed, but it

390
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:53,680
Speaker 1: would have been more of a rudeness, quality of service

391
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 1: type complaint of However, nothing will come of it. The

392
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 1: chief sins the dispatcher put in her two weeks notice

393
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:01,920
Speaker 1: before this, and that call came on her last day

394
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 1: and final shift. Can't investigate someone who no longer works here. However,

395
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 1: an investigation into our policies, our responses, our dispatch center.

396
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 1: I've been in communication with the fire chief. We're looking

397
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:18,680
Speaker 1: at what we can do to maybe increase training. Blah

398
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah. That's a CBS reporter speaking with

399
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 1: interim chief Danny Baker, why can't they investigate her and

400
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,879
Speaker 1: her behavior? And you know what, as I always say

401
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 1: to Jeff Cortez, a former FBI special agent, she didn't

402
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:39,119
Speaker 1: go from zero to ninety mph overnight. I guarantee you

403
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,200
Speaker 1: she has a history of this. The nine one dispatcher.

404
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 1: You know, without having firsthand knowledge, I hesitate to say

405
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 1: one way or the other. But at the same time,

406
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 1: you know, you're probably right. You know this stuff doesn't

407
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 1: typically come out of nowhere. You know what, Then let

408
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 1: me go with Jason Oshan's You've seen enough criminal cases.

409
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,879
Speaker 1: One thing I have argued to a jury many many times,

410
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 1: when you don't know a horse, look at his track record.

411
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:04,240
Speaker 1: If you don't know what he's gonna do, look and

412
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 1: see what he's already done, and then you'll know. Because

413
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 1: history has a way of repeating itself, it has takes

414
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:15,200
Speaker 1: a huge herculating effort for a human to change their behavior,

415
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 1: to change their pattern, their mode, their course of conduct.

416
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 1: It's very difficult to do. That's why it's so hard

417
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 1: for people to kick booze or drugs. Not only is

418
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 1: it physically addictive, psychologically addictive, it's hard to change your

419
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,880
Speaker 1: routines and patterns. I guarantee you that if you look

420
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 1: into her history, this is not the first time that

421
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:39,440
Speaker 1: she's most likely been rude to a person calling nine

422
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 1: one one. She didn't just get burnt out, she didn't

423
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 1: just anything. This was probably, as you say, a process

424
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:49,880
Speaker 1: and there you're right there. I'm sure there were other

425
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,680
Speaker 1: there other incidents leading leading up to this, her callousness,

426
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 1: her lack of care and concern, even just in Calming,

427
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 1: miss Stevens not with standing anything, or you know where

428
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,639
Speaker 1: where is more description, Perhaps because there was a delay

429
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 1: in getting response of what her surroundings were, what her

430
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 1: route was to retrace it. There were just so many

431
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 1: more things that could have been done, notwithstanding her desire

432
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 1: to chastise brate uh and make it more uncomfortable than

433
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:33,399
Speaker 1: it actually had to be. Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

434
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 1: I need to call my mother, you know, Okay, Well

435
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 1: you're not okay, so you can call your mother in

436
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 1: law when you're actually out of the vehicle. So no,

437
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 1: you cannot call her, right, Okay, I'm sorry. Didn't you

438
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 1: pray bray with me? Hello, I'm here, I can still

439
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 1: hear everything, and you're saying to me, I have. Will

440
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 1: you pray with me? Do you hear that the woman

441
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:09,400
Speaker 1: is dying and she's begging the normal one dispatch to

442
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,439
Speaker 1: pray with her, and you hear the dispatch when and

443
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:17,639
Speaker 1: go and try to ignore her. Please, let's hear that

444
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:23,639
Speaker 1: again from the top, Jackie and I I need to

445
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 1: call my mother and you know the most day. Okay,

446
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:28,239
Speaker 1: Well you're not okay, so you can call your mother

447
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 1: in law when you're actually I'm sorry, Can you pray?

448
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 1: You pray with me? He me, Hello, I'm here. I

449
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 1: can still hear everything you're saying to me. I have

450
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 1: Will you pray with me? You go ahead and start

451
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 1: off the prayer and I'll listen to you. I sure

452
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 1: will tell me give me the father one of it

453
00:28:52,200 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 1: that hasn't tell me? Please at me my vehicles. Yeah,

454
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 1: but it's better that your vehicle was ruined than you

455
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 1: being splipped away and nobody knows where you are. So

456
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 1: just because famili not, you have nowhere to be slipt

457
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 1: away too, besides the street that you're on, So just

458
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 1: calm down. Okay. Well I'm at the end of the street.

459
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 1: But man, right now, I'm looking at it right now,

460
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 1: and at the end of the street of some bushes,

461
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 1: so you'll be defined. The callous nature that this dispatch

462
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: operator display toward a dying woman cannot be ignored. To

463
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 1: Leavi page climb online dot Com investigative reporter, explain to

464
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 1: me what is being done other than them claiming they're

465
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 1: doing in another investigation, that's all that's being done. The

466
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 1: police chief said that her conduct, if she was still employed,

467
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 1: wouldn't even rise to the level of a termination. So

468
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 1: if she did not put in her two weeks notice,

469
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 1: she would still have a job working there. According to

470
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 1: the police, what do we know about the victim, Levi,

471
00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 1: She's a forty seven year old woman. She was delivered

472
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: ring newspapers. She was very active in her church. She

473
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 1: loved to help the elderly, and her family says that

474
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 1: she had a heart of gold and would do anything

475
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 1: for anyone. And unfortunately this nine one one dispatcher didn't

476
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 1: seem to have the same attitude or heart that she did.

477
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 1: Take a listen as dispatch op writer daher may No

478
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 1: yells at the dying victim, hold on, hold on, and

479
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 1: it's oh, they're trying to cry to you. The whole

480
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 1: parking lot is flitter they're trying to find you, okay,

481
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 1: so hold on for me. I'm at the very back

482
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 1: of them, at the very back on into that road

483
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 1: in fifty eight three. That's look free in. I didn't

484
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 1: do it, no, ma'am. Oh my god, oh man, man,

485
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 1: please okay, listen to me. I know I'm trying to

486
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 1: get you as help as I can. Okay, just hold

487
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 1: on for okay, man, please, I know the I know.

488
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 1: Hold on for me because I got to take other calls.

489
00:30:55,360 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 1: Plush you and okay, okay, okay, your lord breeze is

490
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 1: get me out. Dear Lord, do find me. Dear Lord, Please,

491
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 1: I've got to take other calls. It's not all about you.

492
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 1: What did I just hear that, doctor Robbie Ludwig, Doctor

493
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: Robbie Ludwig joining me from her Facebook life program at

494
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 1: Times Square. Doctor Robbie did you? What does she think?

495
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 1: She's a customer service operator at QVC. I've got other

496
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 1: calls beside you. The woman is dying. All of her

497
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 1: newspapers are floating around her face. The water is coming

498
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 1: up to her chin. She's begging for help. The EMTs

499
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 1: get there, they see her domb light, but they don't

500
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 1: get there. Fast enough. The woman is begging and pleading,

501
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 1: and Donna Reynaud says, I've got other calls other than you.

502
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 1: We clearly hear that the dispatcher is blaming the victim.

503
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 1: She's blaming the victim for being in this situation. Therefore,

504
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 1: she has zero empathy towards her her. In fact, she

505
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 1: has disdained She doesn't really believe her, So there's zero connection.

506
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 1: There's only anger and rage towards this woman who is

507
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 1: being so kind and lovely in her final moments, even

508
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 1: in this woman's state of panic, she is being lovely

509
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 1: and apologetic to this dispatcher who is devaluing her, who

510
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 1: is blaming her for dying, and really has seems like

511
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 1: no care at all about her, and communicates that, and

512
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 1: that is what is so damaging here. Imagine being in

513
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 1: that situation and sensing that the other person either doesn't

514
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 1: believe you or is not understanding the severity of your situation.

515
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 1: That in itself is trauma inducing. Some of the statements.

516
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 1: Donna Renault, an offwriter, says, quote, you're not going to die.

517
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 1: I don't know why you're freaking out. I know the

518
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 1: water level is high, but freaking out is doing nothing,

519
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 1: you hear the victim of repeatedly apologizing to the dispatcher.

520
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 1: The dispatcher responds, this will teach you next time not

521
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: to drive in the water. I don't know how you

522
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 1: didn't see it. You had to go right over it.

523
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 1: The water just didn't appear, she goes. She goes on

524
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 1: to say, you're not the only one who's been stuck

525
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 1: in the water, so calm down. As the woman, Deborah Stevens,

526
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 1: continues to beg for help, Donna re No callously says,

527
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 1: am I not on the phone with you trying to

528
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: get you some help. At one point, the victim even

529
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 1: apologizes for being rude to the dispatcher because she keeps

530
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 1: begging for help. She says she's about to vomit, and

531
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 1: the dispatcher hits back, saying, well, you're in the water.

532
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 1: You can throw up. It's not gonna matter. When she

533
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 1: begs for dispatch to pray with her, Donnara No goes,

534
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 1: you go ahead. I'll listen her dying request. It's almost

535
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 1: more and I can take in not only has she suffered,

536
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 1: but now her family is suffering hearing this. I'm looking

537
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 1: at a picture right now. Deborah Stevens out trying to

538
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,920
Speaker 1: make extra money delivering newspapers in the dark morning hours,

539
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,439
Speaker 1: holding a little dog. Looks like a little Maltese looking dog,

540
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 1: you know. To doctor Tim Gallagher, I know your lungs

541
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 1: began to fill up with water. What does that feel like?

542
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 1: Do you black out? Do you know what's happening? Well,

543
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 1: I think I have a little personal experience to add

544
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 1: to this, as someone who almost drowned himself. You know,

545
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 1: I do recall the panic, you know, And I do

546
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 1: recall my eyes wide open and just swallowing water and

547
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 1: breathing it in, and you know, I do remember almost

548
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 1: passing out, you know, and it's almost a surreal peace

549
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 1: sort of came over me. And there I didn't really

550
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 1: feel any pain, so to speak, you know, just sort

551
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:56,800
Speaker 1: of I just kind of was relenting for the experience

552
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 1: to happen. And then fortunately in my case, somebody did

553
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 1: come by and rescue me from the water. So each

554
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 1: case is individualized, and that was my experience, and I

555
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 1: hope for the sake of the victim here that she

556
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 1: did go in a peaceful way and not of the

557
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:17,320
Speaker 1: way that it appeared on with her interaction with the

558
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:22,799
Speaker 1: nine one operator well, I mean, dodger, Tim Gallagher, I

559
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 1: appreciate your sentiment, but we heard the way she went.

560
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 1: She went crying, hysterical, pleading for help, apologizing for begging

561
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 1: for help. I too had that experience at age twelve,

562
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 1: almost drowned in a lake, and I remember breathing in,

563
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:43,240
Speaker 1: gulping in water, and fighting the water and miraculously, I remember,

564
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,880
Speaker 1: like it was yesterday, it felt like a hand, a

565
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 1: big hand came up from under and I prayed it

566
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 1: just like Deborah Stevens was praying as I was fighting

567
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 1: the water as a little girl, and it felt like

568
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 1: a big hand reached up under my back and pull

569
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 1: me to the top of the water. And I immediately

570
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 1: got calm and started floating, and my best little girlfriend

571
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,279
Speaker 1: Joy somehow made it to me and pull me out

572
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 1: of the water. And I remember being on the beach

573
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 1: on my stomach and water just pouring out of my

574
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 1: nose and mouth. It was a terrifying experience. Right now,

575
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,839
Speaker 1: our prayers with the family of Deborah Stevens, and good

576
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 1: luck with that internal investigation. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off,

577
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:31,919
Speaker 1: Goodbye friend,