WEBVTT - OpenAI, Influencer Backlash and Our Internet Disconnect 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.159 The content that does the best online is the content 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:06.199 that feeds these fears, and that sells people. 0:00:06.080 --> 0:00:08.119 Sell And I know, if we just. 0:00:08.080 --> 0:00:10.760 Got on here every single day and said the most 0:00:10.800 --> 0:00:14.400 inflammatory stuff and scared everyone and said there's no benefit 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:17.600 and it's a bubble and you're gonna everything's a fake 0:00:17.680 --> 0:00:20.639 and it's you know, we would honestly probably make a 0:00:20.680 --> 0:00:22.880 million dollars at least. I mean, there are people doing 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:24.520 that right that are making that kind of money. 0:00:28.440 --> 0:00:31.120 I'm Laur Siegel, and you're listening to Mostly Human, a 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:33.040 tech podcast through a human lens. 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:34.800 Taylor. 0:00:34.880 --> 0:00:37.360 I've wanted to interview you for so long because I 0:00:37.400 --> 0:00:41.000 think you cover the edges before they become the center. 0:00:41.080 --> 0:00:43.240 You're also kind of just like in Internet culture. 0:00:43.280 --> 0:00:46.279 You are Internet culture to some degree and have been 0:00:46.320 --> 0:00:49.000 doing this long before so many others. 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:51.680 And so anyway, thank you for being on. 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:53.160 I'm so excited to be here. 0:00:53.880 --> 0:00:54.120 Yeah. 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:58.240 Look, and I think I've. 0:00:57.200 --> 0:00:57.920 Always been looking. 0:00:57.920 --> 0:00:59.560 I'm like, okay, what is There's so many things that 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:00.760 I want to talk to you about. 0:01:01.040 --> 0:01:03.720 But something happened last I think. 0:01:03.560 --> 0:01:05.959 It was last week that I was like this screams 0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:09.560 like a hot take from Taylor Lorenz and that was 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:14.399 open AI's backlash for their brand trip with creators, which 0:01:14.480 --> 0:01:17.039 I think might sound kind of inside baseball to folks 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:20.679 who are kind of like, Okay, I'm interested in Ai, 0:01:20.720 --> 0:01:22.560 Why on earth should I care about like a brand 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:26.240 trip for open Ai? But I think it represented something 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:30.000 so much larger which you touched on, which is just 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:34.400 the disconnect of technology and reality and how that's playing 0:01:34.440 --> 0:01:37.640 out from an Internet culture standpoint. And Internet culture is 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:41.399 culture now, and so no one better than you to 0:01:41.440 --> 0:01:43.600 talk about it, and I think and kind of what 0:01:43.640 --> 0:01:44.360 it represents. 0:01:44.400 --> 0:01:46.760 So can you start out a little. 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:51.160 Bit with just explaining what happened and why the backlash? 0:01:51.360 --> 0:01:57.040 Yeah, so open Ai obviously, Chatchypet launches in twenty twenty two, 0:01:57.160 --> 0:02:02.880 becomes the fastest growing consumer product of all time, hugely 0:02:02.960 --> 0:02:05.840 popular product, right, So millions and millions of people are 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:10.360 using these tools that they're creating. But there's this disconnect. 0:02:10.480 --> 0:02:13.200 Especially as these tools become more pervasive, people start to 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:16.000 learn who Sam Altman is, they start to have a 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:19.600 pr problem on their hands where suddenly people are like, Hey, 0:02:19.680 --> 0:02:22.800 Chockchipt's amazing, but why is my boss making me use it? 0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:24.000 Why is there all this say? 0:02:24.200 --> 0:02:24.239 What? 0:02:24.560 --> 0:02:27.400 So what happened. Suddenly AI is all over. 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:30.280 It's invading my life, and like open aiy is this 0:02:30.320 --> 0:02:32.240 company that I hear about doing all of it. Also, 0:02:32.280 --> 0:02:35.880 Sam's of course on this media tour. So a few 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:38.880 maybe a year ago, six months ago, they decide to 0:02:38.960 --> 0:02:41.880 kind of engage in this like pr effort. They hire 0:02:42.000 --> 0:02:46.840 Charles Porch, who's truly like built Instagram into the brand 0:02:46.880 --> 0:02:48.920 that it is today. He was head of partnerships, like 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:51.799 you remember laur probably in the twenty ten, Charles Porch 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:55.200 was just getting every single like internet influencer or celebrity 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:55.760 on Instagram. 0:02:55.800 --> 0:02:58.760 I guarantee Charles Porch he set up their account. 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:00.760 That's right. 0:03:00.880 --> 0:03:04.240 This guy is like legendary. So they hire him. They 0:03:04.240 --> 0:03:06.639 start to build out this like their comms team, their 0:03:06.680 --> 0:03:10.760 marketing team, and they start to engage with influencers. First 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:13.280 they invite a few influencers to some of their sort 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:19.240 of corporate developer facing events, and then they decide a 0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:23.960 couple weeks ago to host their first ever influencer brand trip. 0:03:24.040 --> 0:03:28.040 And this brand trip was at this like pastoral estate. 0:03:28.639 --> 0:03:31.799 It was in upstate New York. Everybody had their own 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:34.880 kind of beautiful cabin. It was this like really it. 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:37.720 I heard people comparing it to Midsomar. Did you see 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:38.200 any of that? 0:03:38.640 --> 0:03:38.960 Yeah. 0:03:39.000 --> 0:03:43.640 And open ai brings about two dozen influencers up to 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:47.720 this beautiful, you know, idyllic landscape and upstate New York 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:49.840 where they have this weekend where they do things like 0:03:50.000 --> 0:03:56.600 bee keeping, hiking, walking. Also some would say getting propagandized 0:03:56.600 --> 0:03:58.839 about AI. Some would say sort of learning about AI. 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:01.600 But they have these sessions where open ai staff is 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:06.240 sort of explaining the tools to them and and educating 0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:09.480 these lifestyle influencers. It's important to note that while open 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:12.320 ai has engaged with tech content creators for a while, 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:15.160 like developers and sort of developers that also have you 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:16.880 know that are sort of vibe coding maybe and they 0:04:16.920 --> 0:04:19.200 have a platform on TikTok, this is the first time 0:04:19.240 --> 0:04:22.320 they've really engaged like the lifestyle influencer community. So these 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:25.520 are you know, sort of women. One woman that was 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:28.239 getting a lot of backlash. She teaches like soft skills, 0:04:28.279 --> 0:04:30.839 she says, or whatever. But they're they're the one. They're 0:04:30.839 --> 0:04:33.120 the type of influencers that are going to vlog you know, 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:35.840 their experience, and so that's what sort of kicked off 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:37.880 the backlash and I think. 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:43.000 It represented such an important moment in tech and the 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:47.760 disconnect with society. You know, well, we've been covering technology 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:50.000 like in dog years, like for like one hundred years, 0:04:50.000 --> 0:04:52.400 you know, for a very long time. And it used 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:54.880 to be, at least when I was covering over the 0:04:54.960 --> 0:04:56.839 last ten years, it used to be very much like, 0:04:57.520 --> 0:05:00.919 I don't know, like entrepreneurs were like you know, on 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:04.400 the on posters in the subway, they were the heroes. 0:05:04.480 --> 0:05:08.960 Like Silicon Valley was sold as a meritocraphcy like, whereas 0:05:09.000 --> 0:05:12.839 like you could work hard and if you worked hard enough, 0:05:13.320 --> 0:05:17.840 you could potentially also build out a multimillion dollar company, 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:20.279 and you know, and all of this stuff. And I 0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:24.839 think that culture, the culture and the viewpoint of that 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:28.160 has changed because the reality is very different now. 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:30.719 And what's been really interesting is. 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:32.520 To look at I'm going to say this and I 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:34.960 sound like an old person, but like how young people 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:40.680 are viewing artificial intelligence. And I think, you know, I 0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:45.680 don't blame them to some degree, right, people booing commencement speakers. 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:48.679 You know a lot of people graduating and the jobs 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:52.240 that they spent years preparing for might not even exist. 0:05:52.560 --> 0:05:56.080 Right, They're looking at the field no to go ahead. 0:05:56.560 --> 0:06:00.799 Yes, you're right, there is this like huge anti AI sentiment, 0:06:01.640 --> 0:06:05.080 But I would caution people against thinking it's an age issue, 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:08.440 because I think this is something that is affecting broad 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:11.239 swaths of the American public, and I think it's something 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:15.479 that's terrifying to college graduates, but also the forty five 0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:18.120 year old with two young kids at home that might 0:06:18.200 --> 0:06:20.479 lose his job or is being asked to use AI 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:22.480 tools that you know are ultimately going to be trained 0:06:22.480 --> 0:06:25.520 to replace him. Like AI is sort of like infecting 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:29.440 every single area of life, and there's a lot of 0:06:29.440 --> 0:06:32.000 skepticism sort of across the age or ages. 0:06:32.080 --> 0:06:34.680 I would say, yeah, and I think it's a good 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:37.240 call out. And when I was looking at this and 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:40.120 you did a video that folks should watch because you 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:44.040 stated so eloquently like we are not in really kind 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:46.359 of like the same moment and time as we were 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:48.960 fifteen years ago. Now we're looking at a world where 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:52.119 Silicon Valley and politics are really intertwined. When the wealth 0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:57.560 disparity is growing. You know, I have spent time as 0:06:57.600 --> 0:07:00.159 you have in Silicon Valley, and there's this bubble and 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:02.760 this promise that artificial intelligence and by the way I 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:05.240 should get it out of the way, like I love technology, 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:06.760 like I'm such a gey gun text. 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:08.920 That's why we're tech reporters. 0:07:09.480 --> 0:07:10.880 Like so I'm I. 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:13.400 You know, there's a part of me that that you know, 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:16.800 understands innovation and the inevitability of it and what can 0:07:16.840 --> 0:07:19.760 happen when it works for you. And I remember thinking 0:07:19.760 --> 0:07:22.640 this after I interviewed Sam Sam Altman, and I remember 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:26.240 walking away from that interview thinking that thing that made 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:29.400 Sam really special as an entrepreneur back in the day, 0:07:29.600 --> 0:07:32.920 right like he was you know, he was someone who 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:37.920 uh really built out entrepreneurship when he was at y Combinator. 0:07:37.960 --> 0:07:41.200 He was early and like the mobile landscape of like 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:43.920 telling people iPads we're going to be a thing and 0:07:44.000 --> 0:07:44.680 like so. 0:07:44.720 --> 0:07:46.840 Like not to get like super inside baseball on it. 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:50.720 But there was something like, really, I want to say, 0:07:50.920 --> 0:07:53.640 insane about entrepreneurs that they said, this is what the 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:56.040 world is going to look like. You're going to sleep 0:07:56.040 --> 0:07:58.360 in a stranger's home Airbnb, You're going to get in 0:07:58.360 --> 0:08:00.880 a stranger's car, and we are going to affest the 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:03.400 hell out of that, and you just don't see it yet. 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:08.160 And to some degree they were correct, right that doesn't 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:10.280 mean it didn't come with a lot of complications, right 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:12.520 with the rise of social media and the lack of guardrails, 0:08:12.520 --> 0:08:16.240 et cetera, et cetera. But now it feels to me 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:21.920 different because they're promising abundance with artificial intelligence and saying 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:24.840 that this is going to be a layer that democratizes 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:30.520 healthcare and education, gives personalized education, and helps cure cancer. 0:08:31.240 --> 0:08:34.320 But if you're in Silicon Valley where they've got AI 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:36.559 agents running all the time and doing all their stuff 0:08:36.559 --> 0:08:38.520 and they're able to kind of sit in the woods 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:42.280 sometimes and just enjoy that feels like they're the ones 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:45.840 living that future that they're talking about. But increasingly there's 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:49.720 a disparity between the reality that we live in, which 0:08:49.760 --> 0:08:51.720 doesn't mean some of the things they're talking about can't 0:08:51.720 --> 0:08:55.040 come true and aren't going to help society. But something 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:59.400 about this brand trip and this idea of lifestyle influencing 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:00.199 when it came. 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:01.439 To artificial intelligence. 0:09:01.440 --> 0:09:03.800 We're back in the day we used to like love 0:09:03.840 --> 0:09:07.520 to watch people who had aspirational lives on Instagram. Now 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:10.240 I'm tired, you know what I'm saying, And I think 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:12.280 and now it feels like the world is on fire. 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:14.600 So this is that was my ted talk. You didn't 0:09:14.600 --> 0:09:17.760 ask for, but I'm for your thoughts on it. 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:20.280 I think we make a really good point when you say, like, 0:09:20.480 --> 0:09:23.280 now the world is on fire, right, Like everyone is 0:09:23.320 --> 0:09:28.479 facing a huge amount of economic anxiety. There's record while disparity, 0:09:28.480 --> 0:09:30.640 people are concerned about climate change. I live out here 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:33.480 in la where we're constantly dealing with the thread of wildfires. 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:37.280 So are my parents in Colorado? Like it feels tough, right, I. 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:39.120 Would say, it's you know, we're in the midst of 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:41.560 this second Trump presidency where there's lots of chaos. 0:09:41.559 --> 0:09:44.440 So people are struggling in a lot of ways. 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:47.600 And so Rebecca Jennings were at a really great pace 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:50.280 in New York Magazine recently. Everything she writes it so 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:55.640 good about actually this backlash lifestyle influencers generally overall the 0:09:55.720 --> 0:09:59.960 lifestyle like influencing industry. What you could sort of build 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:02.400 an audience off of in maybe twenty eighteen, which is 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:05.080 like living this lavish life like show, you know, driving 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:09.679 around with your latte. Like people now are frustrated and angry, 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:12.760 and thanks to algorithms, there's a lot higher chance that 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:16.520 your content is actually going to end up on somebody's feed, 0:10:16.520 --> 0:10:18.920 who doesn't follow you, who hates you, who actually has 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:21.640 no context about you, who might know that, like actually 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:23.760 to get there, like you really had to struggle, and 0:10:23.800 --> 0:10:25.440 like maybe your life is not perfect. Maybe it was 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:27.280 just this couple video. Maybe you just decided to do 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:30.120 this one trip, right, I'm sympathetic to that. I talked 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:31.640 to one of the creators that went on this trip 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:34.680 that was like, ma'am, like I've been this is a 0:10:34.720 --> 0:10:37.280 young person that's been grinding. It was like, I worked 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:39.120 so hard. I'm trying to get a job in tech, 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:41.240 like I couldn't, so I built my platform. I finally 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:44.080 get this brand trip, and now I'm getting all this backlash, 0:10:44.080 --> 0:10:49.000 and it's like, I'm sympathetic to kind of everyone involved. 0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:52.080 But I think what's so interesting to me is like 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:54.679 why open ai and this is what I made my 0:10:54.760 --> 0:10:56.720 video about it too, is like why open ai has 0:10:56.800 --> 0:10:58.280 kind of become the face and like when we look 0:10:58.320 --> 0:11:02.200 at sort of like these companies that become symbolic of 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:04.840 some larger cultural issue, whether or not it's based in reality, 0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:06.360 you can even look at something like meta, right, and 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:09.480 the way that people are so angry about social media 0:11:09.520 --> 0:11:12.480 addiction and meta and stuff. Meanwhile, Spotify has far more 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:16.439 addictive features on their apps. Spotify actually has less content moderation. 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:19.560 Spotify's got short form video, long form video like but 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:22.559 there's no moral panic about Spotify because they don't have 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:25.120 Mark Zuckerberg at the helm being, you know, saying terrible 0:11:25.160 --> 0:11:28.440 things like being irresponsible. Right, So I think with Open AI, 0:11:29.600 --> 0:11:32.720 people are really angry at Sam Altman, and this company 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:36.360 has become representative of all of the bad things that 0:11:36.400 --> 0:11:38.040 AI is doing. And trust me, there's a lot of 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:41.600 bad uses of AI right now. So it just seemed 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:44.600 frustrating to see these influencers, these life sylen facers coming 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:47.000 and putting this like sheen of like come with me 0:11:47.080 --> 0:11:49.200 to go be keeping as I promote, you know, this 0:11:49.280 --> 0:11:52.160 company that you probably think is destroying the world, and 0:11:52.200 --> 0:11:55.000 we're going to do it all amidst climate collapse in 0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:59.240 this pastoral kind of like beautiful nature scenery. While by 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:01.959 the way, we're also the AI industry is like building 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:05.880 data centers that are obliterating, you know, potentially our public lands. 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:09.240 So I think there's just a lot of contradictions at 0:12:09.280 --> 0:12:11.679 play there, and when that makes its way onto the Internet, 0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:15.080 obviously it's like fine, yeah. 0:12:14.440 --> 0:12:16.400 Sure, I mean very well put. 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:19.840 And I think about it and I'm like, you know, 0:12:20.200 --> 0:12:22.800 if I were to argue the other side, right, I'm like, 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:26.160 tech has a real education problem, Like in order for 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:27.480 AI to work for. 0:12:27.520 --> 0:12:30.520 Everybody, folks have to understand it. 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:33.240 And if there's a way in one of the biggest ways, 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:36.200 because as we know, traditional media is collapsing, you have 0:12:36.400 --> 0:12:39.199 the rise of the creator world, which you have been 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:42.200 in for a very long time, but that the loudest 0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:43.839 voices don't necessarily. 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:44.200 Mean the most credible. 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:47.319 And so if you're a creator who has the ability 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:50.320 to go in and have access to the people creating 0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:53.600 the technology that is fundamentally for better info worst transforming 0:12:53.640 --> 0:12:55.079 the world, why. 0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:58.280 Wouldn't you take it? So it's a both and and 0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:01.120 I think that's like a course nuance on the internet 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:01.760 is such a joke. 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:04.240 But I think, what when you say you talk to 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:07.080 some of these influencers who are going there and getting 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:10.440 this backlash, it's really important, I think for technology to 0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:12.800 be able to communicate with the people it is supposed 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:16.280 to serve, because the more we divide that, the less 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:17.720 these people get a seat at the table. 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:19.800 I don't know absolutely. 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:21.960 And I mean, one big problem I have with this 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:24.880 AI backlash is like a lot of these people refuse 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:28.920 to acknowledge any benefits of this technology. They refuse to 0:13:28.960 --> 0:13:31.880 acknowledge it. And if you can't acknowledge the benefits of 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:34.640 a new technology, you actually can't ensure those benefits are 0:13:34.640 --> 0:13:39.560 equally distributed or fairly distributed. And that's a huge problem. Grace, 0:13:39.640 --> 0:13:41.160 I forgot her last name, but there was this one 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:43.240 life style influencer named Grace who kind of became the 0:13:43.240 --> 0:13:46.079 face of the backlash because she actually doubled down publicly 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:48.360 and all these people that were like, you know, this 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:52.160 is morally wrong. She said, I didn't violate my moral code. 0:13:52.600 --> 0:13:55.520 You are basically projecting your moral code onto me. I'm 0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:59.160 not against the concept of AI. I'm not against going 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:02.040 into these rooms learning more about it. That doesn't mean 0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:05.440 I'm necessarily like compromised or not going to you know, 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:08.280 it's effectively a press trip. It's really important for people 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:11.160 to understand open AI did not pay these creators to 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:13.600 be there. Yes, they got a free hotel room, but 0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:17.800 again it's it's talk to any magazine fashion journalist. You know, 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:20.560 they're doing this all day long with the fashion industry, 0:14:20.560 --> 0:14:23.360 which I would argue is just as exploitative and harmful 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:25.280 to our environment if you want to talk about. 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:26.520 Sort of irresponsible industries. 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:28.960 Right, But they're still going on the Balenciaga, you know, 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:31.840 press trip to Paris or whatever. So I think this 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:35.680 is the way that comm's PR works, marketing works, media 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:36.760 and press relations work. 0:14:36.800 --> 0:14:39.920 We know that influencers are effectively the new media. 0:14:39.640 --> 0:14:43.160 So I totally understand why they would go honestly, but 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:46.200 I also understand why it would play so poorly online. 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:48.600 And I think a lot of it again has to 0:14:48.600 --> 0:14:51.040 do with open AI because Anthropic and we can get 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:54.360 into this has been doing tons of influencer marketing for 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:57.200 a year and there has been none of this discussion 0:14:57.200 --> 0:14:57.720 around them. 0:14:58.080 --> 0:14:59.800 Yeah, And I think that's what's actually what's so in 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:04.040 interesting is And when I look at it, I'm not 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:06.160 a defender of one or the other as much as 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:07.960 more of like a person who tries to just take 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:10.760 all the facts and put them in together, put them 0:15:10.760 --> 0:15:12.600 in a place where it kind of makes sense to me. 0:15:13.280 --> 0:15:16.200 And so much about this moment makes sense, and then 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:18.640 so much doesn't, you know, make sense, And I think 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:21.840 more this moment is a feeling, right, It's a feeling 0:15:22.000 --> 0:15:24.680 of an ease, And you're right, I think Opening Eye 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:28.720 has become this kind of poster child for the things 0:15:28.760 --> 0:15:31.720 that are scary about the future and some of the 0:15:31.720 --> 0:15:33.760 things that seem to be happening to people and not 0:15:33.880 --> 0:15:38.800 with people, even though AI to some degree is this inevitability. 0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:42.040 With the correct guardrails, with the correct you know, with 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:46.120 the correct regulation, with the correct participation, it could do 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:49.960 incredible things for society. And Sam Altman like did become 0:15:50.040 --> 0:15:52.160 very much the face of it, especially when like Sora 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:55.200 launched and he kind of made himself this face of it, 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:57.640 and it becomes kind of this meme culture. So I 0:15:57.680 --> 0:16:01.920 think people do associate it with with with Sam. So 0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:05.560 it is a very fascinating moment. And then you look 0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:09.200 at Anthropic, like Anthropic has such like your point, which 0:16:09.240 --> 0:16:12.840 I thought was a really important point, was, you know, Anthropic, 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:15.320 there are a lot of criticism for Open Eyes that they, 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:17.360 you know, are doing business with the Department of War. 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:20.600 Anthropic has done business with the Department of War, and 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:23.640 so have a lot of tech companies. So as you 0:16:23.720 --> 0:16:27.800 are someone who translates internet culture to us, So why 0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:31.720 why isn't that a part of it? Why not you know, 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:34.760 fight against Anthropic if that's if that's your cause, what's 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:35.240 going on? 0:16:36.120 --> 0:16:37.000 I guess like yes. 0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:38.680 And my point to point out some of this is 0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:40.680 like I as somebody that reports a lot on sort 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:44.200 of like these backlash cycles, they're not based in reality 0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:48.560 there there, it's all as you said, it's emotion. There's 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:52.640 no moral consistency because if you are morally outraged about 0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:55.960 a content creator going on one single press weekend with 0:16:56.000 --> 0:16:59.360 open aye, where is that energy for alex Earl when 0:16:59.400 --> 0:17:03.000 she did her huge Microsoft partnership. Microsoft, which is a 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:07.520 key player in the military industrial complex and is like 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:12.000 heavily embedded with the Department of War, right, and as 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:14.680 you mentioned, Anthropic as well, is very eager to work 0:17:14.720 --> 0:17:17.320 with the Department of War. They obviously have a sort 0:17:17.359 --> 0:17:19.359 of disagreement with the government now, but it's not even 0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:21.240 that they're saying we don't want to work with you. 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:24.240 They're saying, hey, yes, we're totally down to make these 0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:27.080 autonomous weapons. We just don't think they're ready yet, but 0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:28.960 they will be one day, and don't worry, we will 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:31.760 do that business. So you know, none of these tech 0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:35.400 companies I would argue have like the moral high ground necessarily, 0:17:35.520 --> 0:17:38.080 like they're all kind of doing government work, they're all 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:40.880 embedded in our military industrial complex, Like this is kind 0:17:40.880 --> 0:17:41.560 of how things go. 0:17:42.520 --> 0:17:44.600 And I think it's really important to call that stuff out. 0:17:45.240 --> 0:17:49.840 But I think driving just an obscene level of hate 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:54.280 at some person with forty thousand followers for going on 0:17:54.359 --> 0:17:57.840 a glorified brand trip, Like I don't know that that's productive. 0:17:57.880 --> 0:17:59.920 I think that's coming from a place of emotion, and 0:18:00.520 --> 0:18:03.000 I think it's also like again, how the companies have 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:06.000 positioned themselves. Open Ai is a really popular consumer product, 0:18:06.000 --> 0:18:08.800 so it's what people are more familiar with. Claude is 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:11.960 seen as more elevated. It has the Sarah font. It's 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:15.200 seen there's people that like will shit on Chatchy bet 0:18:15.320 --> 0:18:16.880 all day, but then like and. 0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:18.920 Say, oh it's evil, it's using up all the water. 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:22.000 It's well by the way in topics like eating open 0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:24.400 AI's lunch right now. Right. This is a massive corporation 0:18:24.440 --> 0:18:27.360 that I would argue also pushes tech policies that are 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:31.000 incredibly harmful, way more irresponsible than open Ai in my opinion, 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:34.200 But they're not as familiar with it, and it's seen 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:36.040 as this sort of elite consumer product. 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:36.760 It's elevated. 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:39.480 Part of it reminds me I covered the Tinder Bumble 0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:43.760 war back in the day, and it's it's similar dynamics 0:18:43.800 --> 0:18:45.960 where you see and honestly, Uber and Lyft could be 0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:48.399 seen in a similar light right where there's usually this 0:18:48.480 --> 0:18:51.679 first mover to the market Uber Tinder that's like a 0:18:51.760 --> 0:18:55.480 category defining that they release a category defining product. 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:57.560 They then sort of often. 0:18:57.320 --> 0:18:59.240 Have a crazy you know, they all have like some 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:01.719 man at the hell that probably says some things that 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:05.240 maybe you know, people don't like or whatever. There's some scandal, 0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:07.760 there's negative press coverage, there should be that we should 0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:10.119 scrutinize the attach companies, and then you have their biggest 0:19:10.119 --> 0:19:13.040 competitor coming around and saying, oh, don't worry, we're the 0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:16.560 good one. We're going to basically do the exact same thing, 0:19:17.160 --> 0:19:19.080 but we're going to sort of be responsible. We're gonna 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:20.760 be Lyft, We're going to be the responsible Uber, We're 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:23.400 going to be Bumble, We're gonna be the responsible tender. Functionally, 0:19:23.440 --> 0:19:26.400 these platforms function the same way. They're exploiting the same people, 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:30.320 they're doing all the same things, but it's a pr 0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:32.639 battle at the end of the day, and Anthropic is 0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:33.800 playing that game very well. 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:37.199 I have to say, like I really do I agree 0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:39.280