WEBVTT - The Future of Healthcare Technology with Eli Lilly and Company's Diogo Rau 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:23.916 Pushkin. Hello, Hello Revisionist History listeners, Happy New Year. Twenty 0:00:23.956 --> 0:00:25.596 twenty five is going to be a great year for 0:00:25.636 --> 0:00:27.796 this podcast, and I want to give you a little 0:00:27.876 --> 0:00:30.756 preview of what to expect. The main event of the 0:00:30.836 --> 0:00:33.396 year is going to be a multi part series from 0:00:33.436 --> 0:00:37.556 Alabama true crime, but with a very revisionist history twist, 0:00:37.796 --> 0:00:40.636 So keep that in mind. Then before we drop that, 0:00:40.836 --> 0:00:43.676 we're going to do two other smaller things. If you 0:00:43.676 --> 0:00:46.116 remember last season, we did a series of interviews with 0:00:46.116 --> 0:00:48.476 screenwriters on their favorite ideas that never made it to 0:00:48.516 --> 0:00:51.236 the screen. We're doing another round of interviews this year, 0:00:51.556 --> 0:00:53.876 half a dozen or so. And then we're also going 0:00:53.916 --> 0:00:57.396 to do a smaller batch of old school revisionist history episodes, 0:00:57.716 --> 0:01:01.116 some weird, some funny, some that will break your heart. 0:01:01.636 --> 0:01:04.716 Over here at Pushkin, we've been hard at work all 0:01:04.876 --> 0:01:06.596 with the goal of bringing you a little bit of 0:01:06.636 --> 0:01:13.836 audio happiness. Stay tuned, everyone, Welcome to Revisionist History. We 0:01:13.876 --> 0:01:16.316 have a special treat today. I had a chance to 0:01:16.316 --> 0:01:19.156 sit down with a guy named Diego Rao who worked 0:01:19.156 --> 0:01:21.596 for years at Apple Way UPI and then left to 0:01:21.596 --> 0:01:26.396 become the chief Information and Digital officer at Eli Lillian Company. 0:01:26.676 --> 0:01:29.796 One of the biggest drug makers in the world. Diogo, 0:01:29.996 --> 0:01:33.596 as you will learn, is irreverent and fascinating and sees 0:01:33.636 --> 0:01:35.276 a good ten years ahead of the rest of us. 0:01:35.676 --> 0:01:37.956 At the end of our conversation, Diego said to me, 0:01:38.436 --> 0:01:41.756 you know, we never got to AI, which is true. 0:01:42.196 --> 0:01:45.796 Can you imagine a conversation about technology so interesting that 0:01:45.876 --> 0:01:49.756 you never get to the subject of artificial intelligence? That's 0:01:50.076 --> 0:01:54.076 what you're about to hear. We're going to talk about 0:01:54.556 --> 0:01:58.036 a whole number of things, but I wanted you to 0:01:58.156 --> 0:02:01.436 start because you're a very unusual figure. You work it 0:02:01.476 --> 0:02:04.156 for Eli Lily, but you are a very unusual figure 0:02:04.156 --> 0:02:06.356 at Eli Lilly. Is that a fair statement. 0:02:07.396 --> 0:02:10.876 I think I have that reputation of being unusual at 0:02:10.956 --> 0:02:13.196 least I like to try to do things a little 0:02:13.196 --> 0:02:13.756 bit differently. 0:02:13.836 --> 0:02:17.156 You know, I was talking about your background. Yeah, you 0:02:16.796 --> 0:02:19.476 you worked in the tech industry for how many years? 0:02:19.636 --> 0:02:21.996 I worked in the tech industry Well, really my whole life, 0:02:22.316 --> 0:02:24.796 But I the last ten years before I came to Lily, 0:02:24.836 --> 0:02:28.076 I was at Apple, and before that I was doing 0:02:28.156 --> 0:02:31.596 technical other kinds of technology work and McKenzie and before 0:02:31.676 --> 0:02:33.636 that I was in the startup world. So I've really 0:02:33.636 --> 0:02:35.596 spent my whole life in technology. 0:02:35.796 --> 0:02:38.716 How many people do you think have moved from Apple 0:02:38.876 --> 0:02:40.196 to a life sciences company? 0:02:40.556 --> 0:02:42.676 About five? I think I know them all. 0:02:42.756 --> 0:02:46.236 Do you guys get together reading most of them? And 0:02:46.356 --> 0:02:48.796 how did So this is a kind of I want 0:02:48.836 --> 0:02:52.196 to start this little on this little tangent, but how 0:02:52.236 --> 0:02:54.996 did that work? Exactly? So somebody comes to you and says, 0:02:55.476 --> 0:02:58.676 have you ever thought to work for a pharma company? Well? 0:02:58.756 --> 0:03:00.676 Yeah, And that's the way a lot of these things start. 0:03:00.756 --> 0:03:02.796 It's you know, there was a recruiter that I worked 0:03:02.836 --> 0:03:05.276 with who who gave me a call and said, hey, 0:03:05.356 --> 0:03:08.476 I've got this this opportunity. It's in life sciences, and 0:03:08.596 --> 0:03:11.236 I was like, I've never done anything in life sciences before. 0:03:11.236 --> 0:03:12.036 It's like, that's okay. 0:03:12.316 --> 0:03:14.276 So I look at the spec and the spec is, 0:03:14.476 --> 0:03:16.436 you know, it's pretty interesting. So I'm like, okay, it's 0:03:16.436 --> 0:03:20.036 worth a phone call. And then I meet our CEO 0:03:20.276 --> 0:03:22.516 and our head of HR and like, these people are 0:03:22.556 --> 0:03:24.396 really nice. And so that's like the second thing that 0:03:24.436 --> 0:03:26.916 I noticed is that they're really, really, really nice. And 0:03:26.956 --> 0:03:29.196 that's that's a big difference, by the way, coming from 0:03:29.316 --> 0:03:31.436 versus the tech world. I have to say a little 0:03:31.476 --> 0:03:35.116 more about that. And then I start talking to our 0:03:35.196 --> 0:03:37.636 head of research and development about some of the problems 0:03:37.676 --> 0:03:41.876 that we're trying to solve in life sciences, and I realized, Wow, 0:03:41.916 --> 0:03:44.476 this is like a fascinating space. I kind of thought 0:03:44.516 --> 0:03:47.436 that like everything exciting in the world was happening in tech, 0:03:47.916 --> 0:03:50.116 and then I then I came to realize, no, actually, 0:03:50.116 --> 0:03:53.036 there's a lot of exciting stuff that's happening outside of 0:03:53.076 --> 0:03:53.836 just the tech world. 0:03:54.076 --> 0:03:57.236 Yeah, so let's start. So you make this when did 0:03:57.236 --> 0:03:58.996 you start your job at. 0:03:58.836 --> 0:04:01.556 Lily May seventeenth, twenty twenty one. 0:04:02.516 --> 0:04:06.596 So go through, just off the top of your head, 0:04:07.116 --> 0:04:12.996 the most surprising things you learned moving from Silicon Valley 0:04:13.036 --> 0:04:14.916 to a life sciences company. 0:04:15.876 --> 0:04:19.196 Well, the number one thing that I actually saw was 0:04:19.276 --> 0:04:21.556 actually the nice people parts. But you know, the second 0:04:21.556 --> 0:04:24.396 thing that I noticed was really long time scales, Like 0:04:24.476 --> 0:04:27.276 the size in the duration of things is just it 0:04:27.396 --> 0:04:31.036 is just beyond belief. My first executive committee meeting in 0:04:31.076 --> 0:04:34.116 twenty twenty one, we were talking about a revenue forecast 0:04:34.236 --> 0:04:36.876 that was for two thousand and thirty and that was 0:04:36.996 --> 0:04:40.876 nine years out, like in tech, like, looking like eighteen 0:04:40.876 --> 0:04:42.516 months out of revenue is ridiculous. 0:04:43.556 --> 0:04:45.876 Well wait, wait, so when you see that, what's your 0:04:46.076 --> 0:04:46.796 what's your reaction? 0:04:46.876 --> 0:04:50.076 Oh? Yes, there's no way we can predict our revenues 0:04:50.116 --> 0:04:51.996 for you know, for nine years from now. And of course, 0:04:52.036 --> 0:04:54.676 now I realize that I'm in here, that there are 0:04:54.716 --> 0:04:56.476 a lot of things that you can predict and it 0:04:56.556 --> 0:04:59.676 is actually very predictable. It's a big bed. If it works, 0:04:59.716 --> 0:05:03.356 you'll know you'll you'll hit it. But it's much less volatile. 0:05:03.836 --> 0:05:07.116 It's these time scales are crazy though, because like at 0:05:07.156 --> 0:05:09.596 our last Executive Committee meeting right before the break, we 0:05:09.596 --> 0:05:12.316 were talking about a product launch. I'll ask you a question, 0:05:12.556 --> 0:05:15.156 when guess when our product launch is that we were 0:05:15.196 --> 0:05:16.916 talking about in December. 0:05:17.916 --> 0:05:21.116 Well, now that you've prime Prime three, it's going to 0:05:21.116 --> 0:05:22.676 be five, six, seven years. 0:05:22.436 --> 0:05:25.796 No, twenty and thirty six, Oh my god. And so 0:05:26.116 --> 0:05:27.916 there is I can guarantee you that there are zero 0:05:28.036 --> 0:05:30.316 tech companies right now talking about what they're going to 0:05:30.396 --> 0:05:31.836 launch in twenty and thirty six. 0:05:32.116 --> 0:05:36.756 Yeah. Yeah, and wait there not only so there is 0:05:36.836 --> 0:05:40.676 certainty that this this product will be approved, but just 0:05:41.516 --> 0:05:45.796 the the you can be you can be ten years 0:05:45.836 --> 0:05:48.476 away and be certain will be approved, but know that 0:05:48.556 --> 0:05:50.196 you still have ten years worth of work to do. 0:05:50.476 --> 0:05:52.996 Yes, you can't be certain, of course, that anything is 0:05:53.036 --> 0:05:55.716 going to be approved, and so we apply a probability 0:05:55.756 --> 0:05:58.476 of technical success. This phrase I'd never heard of before 0:05:58.476 --> 0:06:00.156 I got here, But every step ale of the way 0:06:00.276 --> 0:06:03.436 has probability of technical success, and so you factor it 0:06:03.436 --> 0:06:05.916 in and you you know, you take all that into account. 0:06:06.196 --> 0:06:08.236 But you know, when you have a good medicine and 0:06:08.276 --> 0:06:10.196 you know what it's going to take. But it just 0:06:10.276 --> 0:06:13.916 takes ten years to bring a medicine to life, and 0:06:13.956 --> 0:06:15.676 it's and I don't think that was one of the 0:06:15.676 --> 0:06:17.556 things that I realized before I came into this, just 0:06:17.676 --> 0:06:19.596 how long it takes and how much money it takes. 0:06:19.996 --> 0:06:22.236 So it is possible that you will work on things 0:06:22.796 --> 0:06:25.076 that you will never see come to fruish. 0:06:25.116 --> 0:06:28.316 In fact, most of our scientists that work here will 0:06:28.356 --> 0:06:31.236 never see their medicines that they're working on come to life, 0:06:31.756 --> 0:06:33.916 which is kind of crazy to think of. 0:06:34.676 --> 0:06:36.676 And it's affect the culture of organization. 0:06:37.036 --> 0:06:40.316 It gives it a really long term perspective, like crazy 0:06:40.356 --> 0:06:43.556 long term perspective when we when we're talking about things 0:06:43.636 --> 0:06:46.396 making decisions, we're really not thinking, you know, like at 0:06:46.396 --> 0:06:48.556 an executive committee level, there are some things that we're 0:06:48.556 --> 0:06:50.516 doing on a you know, on a this year basis. 0:06:50.516 --> 0:06:51.716 But there are a lot of things that we're doing 0:06:51.716 --> 0:06:54.236 that we're really talking about, like the twenty thirties, like 0:06:54.356 --> 0:06:58.316 just just a much different timescale from from anything else. 0:06:58.356 --> 0:07:00.476 And so we're not going to do anything stupid. I 0:07:00.516 --> 0:07:01.756 think it's one of the one of the good things. 0:07:01.796 --> 0:07:02.956 We're not going to trade off some of the long 0:07:03.036 --> 0:07:04.316 term to get a little bit of a benefit in 0:07:04.356 --> 0:07:06.636 the short term. So I think it makes us much 0:07:06.636 --> 0:07:10.676 more rational all that way. I guess I would say 0:07:10.676 --> 0:07:11.596 we play the long game. 0:07:12.476 --> 0:07:14.156 But I want to go back to so you come 0:07:14.196 --> 0:07:17.916 to Lily and I'm curious, so what did they want 0:07:17.956 --> 0:07:18.476 from you? 0:07:20.716 --> 0:07:26.116 My boss, our CEO, gave me a mandate to really change, 0:07:26.156 --> 0:07:29.836 to bring in technology into everything that we that we did, 0:07:30.516 --> 0:07:33.196 So it was not a caretaker role, sort of a mandate. 0:07:33.276 --> 0:07:35.196 You know, we want you to just keep running the things. 0:07:35.356 --> 0:07:37.116 We want you to really figure out, like what can 0:07:37.156 --> 0:07:40.036 you do to shake things up? And so that was 0:07:40.076 --> 0:07:43.516 really that was really the goal. And I think a 0:07:43.556 --> 0:07:47.476 big part of it was bringing a consumer orientation as well. 0:07:47.516 --> 0:07:50.596 And I think this is an industry that has largely 0:07:50.636 --> 0:07:53.236 worked the same since the nineteen fifties, I mean, if 0:07:53.276 --> 0:07:55.796 you look at it, the way you get medicines today 0:07:56.076 --> 0:07:59.116 as a patient is basically unchanged. You go to your doctor, 0:07:59.116 --> 0:08:02.636 they write a form. Maybe now they submit your prescription electronically. 0:08:03.436 --> 0:08:05.116 You still have to make sure you can pay for 0:08:05.236 --> 0:08:07.116 You still have to go to a retail pharmacy in 0:08:07.156 --> 0:08:10.476 most cases. None of that's really changed since the nineteen fifties, 0:08:10.476 --> 0:08:12.356 even though we have so much more. So a big 0:08:12.396 --> 0:08:15.156 part of what we're trying to do is actually a 0:08:15.196 --> 0:08:17.276 big part of my mandate is to really bring this 0:08:17.356 --> 0:08:19.916 into the twenty first century, or at least the late 0:08:19.956 --> 0:08:20.956 twentieth century. 0:08:21.516 --> 0:08:25.636 But is there within the portfolio of things that Lily does, 0:08:26.516 --> 0:08:29.676 do you touch on everything or just are you? Are 0:08:29.716 --> 0:08:33.516 you focused on the consumer side of the business. I mean, 0:08:33.516 --> 0:08:35.276 what's the kind of not to remit? 0:08:35.676 --> 0:08:37.316 The great thing is that I get to focus on 0:08:37.356 --> 0:08:40.436 all of that stuff, So everything that's technology related. I 0:08:42.236 --> 0:08:45.196 do cover everything from the discovery side through the consumer side, 0:08:45.196 --> 0:08:47.556 and actually those are probably some of my favorite parts. 0:08:47.556 --> 0:08:49.436 And I'm going to because of course I shouldn't be 0:08:49.436 --> 0:08:51.596 say favorites, but you know, I love the discovery side 0:08:51.596 --> 0:08:54.116 and discovering new molecules and what we can do there 0:08:54.836 --> 0:08:57.036 a lot of cool stuff, especially with AI, we could 0:08:57.076 --> 0:09:00.276 talk for hours about. And the consumer side is also 0:09:00.316 --> 0:09:02.236 the place where I see where I have a passion 0:09:02.276 --> 0:09:04.756 coming from my prior life at Apple and just seeing 0:09:04.796 --> 0:09:06.996 the potential we have to change everything there. I think 0:09:06.996 --> 0:09:09.516 this whole industry hasn't really focused on, like how do 0:09:09.556 --> 0:09:12.516 we make it an amazing experience and work backwards. I 0:09:12.556 --> 0:09:15.356 think the kinds of things that you see at Apple 0:09:16.156 --> 0:09:18.876 and a lot of other consumer rinan companies just haven't 0:09:19.476 --> 0:09:21.076 haven't arrived here yet. 0:09:21.236 --> 0:09:24.836 And how does putting the customer first in that chain 0:09:24.916 --> 0:09:28.156 of the h in that chain of kind of interest 0:09:28.196 --> 0:09:31.436 groups change the way you do business or change the 0:09:31.476 --> 0:09:33.316 way you think about what you're doing. 0:09:33.396 --> 0:09:35.476 That was the most fundamental thing that I learned from 0:09:35.516 --> 0:09:38.276 my time at Apple. And I think most companies will say, oh, 0:09:38.276 --> 0:09:40.516 we care about the customer. But you know, whenever you 0:09:40.556 --> 0:09:43.116 start a project, people will have I don't know, they'll 0:09:43.116 --> 0:09:45.156 have five pillars or five things they need to go after. Well, 0:09:45.276 --> 0:09:47.996 maybe there's the business case, the product, the customer, the 0:09:48.476 --> 0:09:50.516 you know, you know, you'll have like five or six 0:09:50.516 --> 0:09:52.956 different things. And the way you'd always do things that 0:09:52.996 --> 0:09:56.516 Apple was was different. You would always start by like 0:09:56.676 --> 0:10:00.476 what's the customer the consumer experience that you want to create, 0:10:00.756 --> 0:10:03.036 and then work backwards and then figure out business. You know, 0:10:03.076 --> 0:10:04.836 can you make a can you make it a financial 0:10:04.876 --> 0:10:07.276 case around it? Well maybe you can't, Okay, so we 0:10:07.276 --> 0:10:09.036 need to maybe we can see how we can change 0:10:09.036 --> 0:10:11.316 the back and forth. But it really was everything was 0:10:11.356 --> 0:10:13.716 centered on the customer experience. It wasn't like a pillar 0:10:13.796 --> 0:10:16.556 of one thing of five. It was like the thing 0:10:16.636 --> 0:10:19.956 that was that was guiding everything. And I think that's 0:10:20.116 --> 0:10:22.316 we're not there yet, but that's like that's the kind 0:10:22.356 --> 0:10:24.676 of thing we need to do. Like every single time 0:10:25.196 --> 0:10:27.916 we need to go, uh, we need to go back 0:10:27.916 --> 0:10:30.956 and see what's what's the customer experience? Like we need 0:10:30.956 --> 0:10:33.476 to actually focus on like making a customer experience better. 0:10:43.756 --> 0:10:47.636 You have a whole table full of goodies over there. 0:10:47.916 --> 0:10:50.876 We need to pick a goodie and let's let's use 0:10:51.236 --> 0:10:54.916 uh uh this as a specific walk me through the 0:10:54.996 --> 0:11:00.236 kind of thinking behind the product, uh, the kind of challenge, 0:11:00.276 --> 0:11:03.796 the specific challenges, how it represents this process that you've 0:11:03.836 --> 0:11:07.996 been talking about. You pick great not just so people 0:11:08.036 --> 0:11:11.996 know this about but a couple of feet from from 0:11:12.076 --> 0:11:16.676 diego is there, there's about looks like eight to ten. Uh, 0:11:16.836 --> 0:11:20.156 mysterious boxes that are so. 0:11:20.156 --> 0:11:22.556 I have to I have to have to share with 0:11:22.596 --> 0:11:24.916 everybody that like. Uh, Malcolm and I had a little 0:11:24.956 --> 0:11:27.156 prep call before, you know, a couple of weeks ago, 0:11:27.476 --> 0:11:29.836 and it was only about ten minutes because he just said, okay, 0:11:29.916 --> 0:11:31.996 you know, if you got any toys, any goodies, like, 0:11:32.236 --> 0:11:34.236 bring them along, and so like, my team gave me 0:11:34.276 --> 0:11:36.116 a box of goodies here which is all slayed out 0:11:36.116 --> 0:11:38.276 on the table. And then uh, and then I think 0:11:38.316 --> 0:11:39.836 you said, okay, and I want to talk too much more, 0:11:39.956 --> 0:11:40.836 Let's not do any more prep. 0:11:41.756 --> 0:11:43.836 Well, the thing is, if you have small children, as 0:11:43.836 --> 0:11:47.116 I do, you think exclusively in terms of of shiny 0:11:47.156 --> 0:11:50.076 little gifts, you'd be sprung. I almost said, can you 0:11:50.076 --> 0:11:53.956 bring snacks? That would be only stop awesome? 0:11:54.076 --> 0:11:57.036 All right, so let me grab a box. All right, 0:11:57.036 --> 0:11:58.996 I'm going to show you something that's that is now. 0:11:59.156 --> 0:12:02.596 Let me grab that one, yep, and I'm I'm going 0:12:02.636 --> 0:12:04.196 to hide it here for just a second. Tell you 0:12:04.196 --> 0:12:06.756 what the what the problem is that we're going after. 0:12:07.556 --> 0:12:09.676 One of the big challenges in the world right now 0:12:10.476 --> 0:12:15.836 is medicine and medicine safety. When I was at Apple, 0:12:16.316 --> 0:12:20.756 I saw counterfeit iPhones, and I couldn't believe it. You 0:12:20.756 --> 0:12:23.276 wouldn't know that they were counterfeit until you actually picked 0:12:23.276 --> 0:12:26.036 them up and played with them for like half an hour. 0:12:26.316 --> 0:12:27.916 And sometimes we would have to send them in and 0:12:27.956 --> 0:12:32.316 have them get X rayed to know that they're they're fake. Well, 0:12:32.876 --> 0:12:35.276 that was on those were on products, you know, that 0:12:35.356 --> 0:12:38.076 was like a thousand dollars product that Electronics very hard 0:12:38.076 --> 0:12:41.436 to make counterfeit, but the economics were there. Medicines are 0:12:41.436 --> 0:12:43.836 a lot easier to fake or at least make them 0:12:43.876 --> 0:12:45.796 look fake. All you need to do is copy the 0:12:45.916 --> 0:12:48.396 box and you know, if it's in a vial, you know, 0:12:48.436 --> 0:12:51.476 put a label on it something like that. And with 0:12:51.596 --> 0:12:53.196 some of the medicines that are out there right now, 0:12:53.236 --> 0:12:55.876 there's a huge financial incentive for people to have to 0:12:55.956 --> 0:12:59.716 make to say that they're making medicines that they really 0:12:59.756 --> 0:13:01.036 are not and they're faking them. 0:13:01.116 --> 0:13:04.516 What would be just just just fascinating. What is there 0:13:04.516 --> 0:13:10.476 a particular kind of medicine for which the counterfeiters motivation 0:13:10.596 --> 0:13:11.116 is greatest? 0:13:11.316 --> 0:13:14.676 Well right now, uh, in chronic weight management, we have 0:13:14.756 --> 0:13:18.196 the g LP one medicines and so above for for 0:13:18.356 --> 0:13:22.756 us and the other leading maker of g LP one medicines. 0:13:24.436 --> 0:13:28.156 Counterfeiting is a real, real threat and back to formularities 0:13:28.196 --> 0:13:30.796 and things like that. A lot of insurance plans do 0:13:30.876 --> 0:13:34.356 not cover uh, chronic weight loss management. Uh. And so 0:13:34.436 --> 0:13:37.516 there's a huge financial incentive on the black market to say, hey, 0:13:37.516 --> 0:13:38.756 we're going to go and. 0:13:38.756 --> 0:13:40.956 Some uncertainty about outcomes. So you would take you a 0:13:40.956 --> 0:13:43.716 while to figure out you're taking a fake correct it. 0:13:43.956 --> 0:13:46.876 And I mean it's not only I mean it's not 0:13:46.876 --> 0:13:49.276 only fake, it's actually many of these cases are risky 0:13:49.316 --> 0:13:51.956 because once you see, uh, once you see like the 0:13:51.996 --> 0:13:54.796 sterile environments that these medicines go through to be made, 0:13:55.236 --> 0:13:59.356 you know that it could in the best case, it's harmless, right, 0:13:59.396 --> 0:14:01.316 I mean, the best case is you don't get any effect. 0:14:02.036 --> 0:14:04.236 And so what I've got here as a product, I'm 0:14:04.276 --> 0:14:09.396 gonna uh, this can be any product and uh it's 0:14:09.396 --> 0:14:12.076 so don't pay attention to what product this actually is. 0:14:13.676 --> 0:14:15.876 And I've got the product right here, and I can 0:14:15.916 --> 0:14:18.756 tap my phone against it and I will get it 0:14:19.396 --> 0:14:23.516 in an an NFC tag. And that n f C 0:14:23.676 --> 0:14:26.156 tag is just like when you do a contact list 0:14:26.236 --> 0:14:28.956 payment and it will bring up, it'll bring up a 0:14:28.996 --> 0:14:30.836 page to show you that you could actually verify that 0:14:30.916 --> 0:14:35.716 the packaging matches something that we've produced. Unlike a QR code, 0:14:35.716 --> 0:14:38.356 it can't be copied. It's cryptographically secure. And this is 0:14:38.356 --> 0:14:41.276 where the technology part gets interesting, because they can copy 0:14:41.316 --> 0:14:42.796 the box, they could do all kinds of things like that, 0:14:42.836 --> 0:14:45.156 but they can't copy that tag. There's one and only 0:14:45.196 --> 0:14:47.596 one tag that you can that you can tap and 0:14:47.596 --> 0:14:48.516 then we can verify it. 0:14:48.876 --> 0:14:51.836 Yeah, so how how how long did it take to 0:14:51.876 --> 0:14:53.396 develop that particular technology? 0:14:53.636 --> 0:14:56.356 So it took uh, this is something we did within 0:14:56.436 --> 0:14:58.676 my first few months that coming here. Uh, and we 0:14:58.716 --> 0:15:02.396 haven't launched it yet, so they the designing it is 0:15:02.476 --> 0:15:04.316 very easy, the developing it is very hard. 0:15:04.436 --> 0:15:06.196 So you could you could do. What you're saying is 0:15:06.436 --> 0:15:08.676 what you have is a technology that could be a 0:15:08.676 --> 0:15:14.356 platform or for building an interaction between the consumer of 0:15:14.356 --> 0:15:17.396 the bill, the patient correct and the manufacturer. 0:15:17.596 --> 0:15:20.276 That's absolutely right. And you know, we actually don't even 0:15:20.316 --> 0:15:22.756 care about it necessarily being just for us, Like this 0:15:22.876 --> 0:15:24.476 is the kind of thing where we'd say, this is 0:15:24.516 --> 0:15:27.156 a great thing. If adherence can improve for patients across 0:15:27.196 --> 0:15:30.236 all medicines, all manufacturers, that would be fantastic. 0:15:30.356 --> 0:15:35.436 Yeah, how but you've put that RFID tag on the box. Correct, 0:15:35.716 --> 0:15:38.236 But now there's still a thing inside the box. 0:15:38.036 --> 0:15:40.716 Still up staying inside the box. So this is version one, 0:15:40.756 --> 0:15:43.316 which is on the box, and then version two, which 0:15:43.316 --> 0:15:46.276 we'll come to later, will be on the individual medicine itself. 0:15:46.436 --> 0:15:50.796 What about protecting against an unauthorized use of the medicine? 0:15:50.796 --> 0:15:52.796 What if the wrong person taps to your phone? 0:15:52.796 --> 0:15:56.116 Against absolutely then you could actually make sure that you're 0:15:56.156 --> 0:15:58.116 taking the right medicine. I also think making sure that 0:15:58.156 --> 0:16:00.356 you haven't taken your medicine more than once in a 0:16:00.436 --> 0:16:02.636 day is also an important thing because, you know what, 0:16:02.796 --> 0:16:05.676 it's actually very easy to do. And I also think 0:16:05.716 --> 0:16:08.476 that in a hospital environment it also is you know, 0:16:08.516 --> 0:16:10.316 you could tie it into systems and make sure that 0:16:10.356 --> 0:16:14.036 you're actually administering the correct medicine. Uh, not something that 0:16:14.396 --> 0:16:17.836 you can imagine a work flashing up on on the 0:16:18.156 --> 0:16:20.916 health healthcare provider's device if it's the wrong medicine. 0:16:20.956 --> 0:16:23.516 So this is beta with the box. Yeah, how long 0:16:23.676 --> 0:16:25.756 how many years before you think you could be actually 0:16:25.796 --> 0:16:28.556 in the pill itself? The pill itself. 0:16:28.596 --> 0:16:30.796 I don't know if we'll ever get past the consumer 0:16:33.036 --> 0:16:36.436 acceptance of r f I D like if like actually 0:16:36.436 --> 0:16:38.356 being in the pillow soft. But if we could get there, 0:16:38.996 --> 0:16:41.636 that's that's not super far out, that's probably you know, 0:16:42.276 --> 0:16:45.996 probably five years out of Yeah. Yeah, but it's not 0:16:46.356 --> 0:16:47.036 the technology. 0:16:47.276 --> 0:16:49.276 Your better version is that you point your phone at 0:16:49.316 --> 0:16:53.356 your gut and you find all the stuff that's in there. Goodness, 0:16:53.356 --> 0:16:55.516 what do they have for dinner? 0:16:55.636 --> 0:16:57.596 Yeah? Exactly, it might not be good to find that out. 0:16:59.556 --> 0:17:02.316 Pick another wearable because now I'm interested. First of all, 0:17:03.276 --> 0:17:05.636 has literally ever done a wearable before? 0:17:06.156 --> 0:17:09.516 Uh? No, We've not produced a wearable of our our own, 0:17:10.156 --> 0:17:11.996 and it ends up being a little bit challenging as 0:17:12.036 --> 0:17:14.516 a manufacturer. Be a lot easier if we didn't make 0:17:14.596 --> 0:17:18.436 drugs to actually launch a wearable. But because you make 0:17:18.516 --> 0:17:21.356 drugs and then then and then the question is as well, 0:17:21.396 --> 0:17:24.156 are you using this too? Does it have to be? 0:17:24.316 --> 0:17:26.996 Is it required for somebody taking to medicine? So there's 0:17:26.996 --> 0:17:29.276 a whole host of things that makes it really complicated 0:17:29.276 --> 0:17:31.436 for us to do it. So the most, for the 0:17:31.436 --> 0:17:33.836 most part, where we use these things are in clinical trials. 0:17:34.076 --> 0:17:38.276 So how many wearables take me ten years into the future? Yeah, 0:17:38.916 --> 0:17:41.596 how many wearables am I wearing? If I want to 0:17:41.636 --> 0:17:44.876 be completely you know, if. 0:17:44.716 --> 0:17:47.916 You're a nerd out on all of this. You know, 0:17:48.516 --> 0:17:52.116 I think it's probably on the scale of two to three. 0:17:52.196 --> 0:17:54.796 I think I think there are only so many places 0:17:54.996 --> 0:17:59.396 that that you're willing to put a wearable, you know. 0:17:59.476 --> 0:18:02.356 I you know, you can imagine there's your ring, there's 0:18:02.436 --> 0:18:05.116 a watch, and you know that you might be able 0:18:05.156 --> 0:18:08.476 to if you've ever had like a ziopatch or anything 0:18:08.516 --> 0:18:12.516 like that, part catch. Those are not terribly uncomfortable insuls. 0:18:13.036 --> 0:18:15.636 You know, you could, you could imagine, But after that, 0:18:16.476 --> 0:18:18.676 you don't have that many more places I think that 0:18:18.716 --> 0:18:21.356 you would you'd be willing to wear something. So I'll 0:18:21.396 --> 0:18:23.396 go I'll go with those three tops. 0:18:23.516 --> 0:18:25.956 I was gonna say eyes I was reading eyes. Yeah, 0:18:26.316 --> 0:18:29.356 but really I was really a really fascinating study that 0:18:29.476 --> 0:18:31.596 was looking trying to figure out what the difference is 0:18:31.636 --> 0:18:34.876 between a novice police officer and an expert police officer. 0:18:35.356 --> 0:18:38.596 And they use eye tracking and gave them scenarios and 0:18:38.916 --> 0:18:41.876 figured out that they're looking at different things. So you 0:18:41.876 --> 0:18:45.036 have a scenario of like that guy here and this 0:18:45.116 --> 0:18:47.516 is happening here, and someone's throwing this here, and we 0:18:47.556 --> 0:18:50.116 see the experts like looking do do do do do 0:18:50.116 --> 0:18:54.836 do do doo, and the novice is looking right, Yeah, 0:18:54.916 --> 0:18:57.436 one spot versus But I'm just curious about, like, you know, 0:18:58.836 --> 0:19:01.036 my sense is this is kind of once you started 0:19:01.036 --> 0:19:03.916 going down this road. Yeah, there's lots and lots and 0:19:03.956 --> 0:19:04.876 lots and lots of things. 0:19:04.996 --> 0:19:06.316 No, I thought you were going to go down a 0:19:06.316 --> 0:19:09.796 different path, which is like the what you might like 0:19:09.916 --> 0:19:12.196 enhancing your eyes or your hearing or things like that, 0:19:12.236 --> 0:19:16.636 which is also like that's just another fascinating space of science. 0:19:16.676 --> 0:19:20.876 And yeah, yeah, why one of the things you said 0:19:20.876 --> 0:19:23.636 earlier big more interested when you said that if you're 0:19:23.676 --> 0:19:26.156 making drugs, and the question, one of the questions that 0:19:26.236 --> 0:19:29.436 comes up is are you using the something like this 0:19:30.676 --> 0:19:34.796 a wearable to market the drug? But I'm wondering whether 0:19:34.836 --> 0:19:39.476 that's there's another way to frame that is. Surely one 0:19:39.716 --> 0:19:43.356 logical step here is that you start to you're not 0:19:43.476 --> 0:19:45.556 just giving someone a drug or giving someone a drug 0:19:45.596 --> 0:19:48.916 in combination with a set of wearables that allow us 0:19:48.956 --> 0:19:54.356 to maximize the value of the therapeutic. Right, is that 0:19:54.396 --> 0:19:56.156 what we're are we gonna be? Are we gonna be? 0:19:56.196 --> 0:19:58.716