Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carol Masser and I'm
Speaker 1: Jason Kelly. We're right here every day bringing you the
Speaker 1: latest news from the world's of business and finance, plus technology, politics, economics,
Speaker 1: all harnessing the power of Business Week reporters and editors,
Speaker 1: and of course Carol that's part of a team of
Speaker 1: twenty seven hundred journalists and analysts more than a hundred
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Speaker 1: Week on iTunes, SoundCloud, bl Bloomberg dot com. You can
Speaker 1: also listen to our radio show at two pm Eastern
Speaker 1: on Bloomberg Radio every weekday, or watch us on YouTube
Speaker 1: by searching Bloomberg Global News. Let's talk about where we
Speaker 1: are when it comes to the virus, and especially given
Speaker 1: the backdrop, Carol, of the broader healthcare crisis. We've been
Speaker 1: in the midst of a broader healthcare crisis for a
Speaker 1: long time now, and we're in a very specific one here.
Speaker 1: Let's get into it with Vivian Lee. Dr Vivian Lee,
Speaker 1: president of Health Platforms over at Verily Life Sciences. She
Speaker 1: joins us on the phone from New York. She's the
Speaker 1: author of a book The long fix solving America's healthcare
Speaker 1: crisis with strategies that work for everyone. Man, if this
Speaker 1: pandemic hasn't laid bare everything that you're writing about, Dr Lee,
Speaker 1: I don't know what does. First of all, congratulations on
Speaker 1: the book. Tell us what you're seeing out there and
Speaker 1: sort of how it fits in what we're experiencing right
Speaker 1: now fits into your longer term thesis. Well, thanks so
Speaker 1: much for having me. And I think you couldn't have
Speaker 1: said it better. This is like a giant stress test
Speaker 1: for our healthcare system, and I think we're having some
Speaker 1: pretty serious chest pain. You know, we're pretty much struggling
Speaker 1: on almost all fronts except for one, which is I
Speaker 1: have to say that I think that the heroic measures
Speaker 1: that are frontline healthcare workers have been demonstrating. I think
Speaker 1: that that is something that we should all continue to celebrate.
Speaker 1: But in terms of the system itself, I think we
Speaker 1: we are seeing, as you say, so many of its
Speaker 1: flaws right now. All right, so listen, vision that we
Speaker 1: have a strategy session right of all the great minds
Speaker 1: in medical community, global medical community for that matter, and
Speaker 1: we can make this system better. What would be the
Speaker 1: three things you would change from day one. Well, for
Speaker 1: the for to start with, we have to really change
Speaker 1: how we're paying for healthcare and what we're paying for.
Speaker 1: Right now, we are paying in a fee for service
Speaker 1: model for things to be done to us regardless of
Speaker 1: whether they make us healthier or not. And that fee
Speaker 1: for service kind of model means that our health care
Speaker 1: systems just live from fee to fee, and as you
Speaker 1: can see with COVID, as many of them have been having,
Speaker 1: you know, empty clinics and empty hospitals, they're actually being
Speaker 1: forced to shut down or even lay off people in
Speaker 1: so many in so many different parts of the country,
Speaker 1: especially rule parts of the country. So first is we
Speaker 1: really have to change the way in which we are
Speaker 1: paying for healthcare. The second thing is we really have
Speaker 1: to um take advantage of the new technologies. Telehealth is
Speaker 1: one example. We're seeing a lot greater use of that
Speaker 1: more digital health solutions so that people can look after
Speaker 1: their own health in their homes, in their in their
Speaker 1: workplace environments for example. But those have to again be
Speaker 1: used in a way in which they're paid for generating
Speaker 1: better health, not just for doing more things to people.
Speaker 1: So take advantage of more of the technology. And then
Speaker 1: the third is. I think we need a lot more
Speaker 1: transparency about what it is we're going to have to
Speaker 1: pay for, how much it's going to cost, why it cost,
Speaker 1: what it does, so that we can really start to
Speaker 1: link up the costs with what we're actually getting for
Speaker 1: those dollars. And so, dr Lee, part of what you're
Speaker 1: talking about. A lot of what you're talking about, especially
Speaker 1: in that description, goes against some very entrenched economic interests. Uh.
Speaker 1: There are a lot of folks, especially big companies on
Speaker 1: the managed care side, on the healthcare system side, on
Speaker 1: the pharmaceutical side, they and maybe they wouldn't admit this
Speaker 1: in the cold light of day, they kind of like
Speaker 1: the way it works. They're making a lot of money.
Speaker 1: How do you essentially make the case to policy officials,
Speaker 1: many of whom hear from these companies through lobbying. How
Speaker 1: do you sort of make this change? How do you
Speaker 1: break the system in a way that people might be
Speaker 1: okay with? Well, there's no question that changes hard. But
Speaker 1: I think you'd be surprised at how much support there
Speaker 1: is for change, especially right now. So when you talk
Speaker 1: about managed care, companies are insurers. They actually really want
Speaker 1: people to stay healthy. The healthier people are the less
Speaker 1: they have to pay out and the better they do.
Speaker 1: Most health care systems, most people who come into health care, physicians, nurses, therapists,
Speaker 1: we want our patients to be healthy. We are not
Speaker 1: hoping for them to be sick. But what we want
Speaker 1: to do is to have just better alignment, so we're
Speaker 1: paid for them to be healthier. You know, right now,
Speaker 1: we just have the wrong incentives, right we are only
Speaker 1: paid if they're sick. But actually in some cases, like
Speaker 1: some clinics that are working in a Medicare advantage model,
Speaker 1: and there are these clinics that are all over the
Speaker 1: country where they're just paid a fixed amount of money
Speaker 1: to keep their UH seniors healthy, and they get paid
Speaker 1: that fixed amount no matter what happens, they actually are
Speaker 1: are doing much better. They're actually spending more time with patients,
Speaker 1: there's less burnout, the patients are hospitalized much less, and
Speaker 1: so they actually do better. So there really are some
Speaker 1: some strong incentives right now for moving to what we
Speaker 1: call it paying for better health or paying for outcomes model.
Speaker 1: But we just have to get it all aligned at
Speaker 1: the same time so that we all make that transition together.
Speaker 1: Dr viving Lee, we have about a minute and we'll
Speaker 1: do some news and then we'll come back. But in
Speaker 1: a minute or so, can you say, who's not buying
Speaker 1: into this whole idea of let's just keep people well
Speaker 1: and that's a smarter system. Who's not buying into that.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure that anyone's not buying into it, but
Speaker 1: I think that we have to make it a little
Speaker 1: bit easier to make that transition. It's almost impossible to
Speaker 1: live in a world where you're getting paid for doing
Speaker 1: a lot of things to people and then Soto getting
Speaker 1: paid for keeping them out of the hospital at the
Speaker 1: same time. That's almost impossible. So we have to make
Speaker 1: that change pretty decisively and help those systems change. But
Speaker 1: I think most people are supportive of it. We do
Speaker 1: want to bring you a little piece of an interview
Speaker 1: that our David Weston did with Dr Anthony Fauci. Check
Speaker 1: it out. Everybody, if you're talking about a medical question,
Speaker 1: listen to the medical experts. That's the advice, and you
Speaker 1: won't get it. You will not get a conflicting message
Speaker 1: from the medical experts about things like hydroxy chloroquine, about
Speaker 1: what the results of the vaccine trial aw or what
Speaker 1: the results of monoclonal anybody. So when it comes to
Speaker 1: pure public health medical things, listen to what the medical
Speaker 1: experts say. All right, and we've got a medical expert
Speaker 1: with us. Dr Vivian Lee still with us, President of
Speaker 1: health Platforms at Verily Life Science, former CEO of the
Speaker 1: three and a half billion dollar healthcare system University of
Speaker 1: Utah Health, still with us on the phone in New York. So,
Speaker 1: Dr Lee, you are a medical expert. I'm a assuming
Speaker 1: you agree with what we heard from Dr Fauci. What
Speaker 1: would you say then, is the right thing to do
Speaker 1: when it comes to reopening schools and colleges and universities.
Speaker 1: You know, we are in such a difficult situation right
Speaker 1: now because we need to keep our economy going. We
Speaker 1: actually need to invest in our future, which is I
Speaker 1: think a big part of why we need to get
Speaker 1: our universities back up this fall. Those students need to
Speaker 1: continue study because there are future and at the same time,
Speaker 1: we have this massive upswing in COVID across the country
Speaker 1: and we have to keep healthy. We have to keep
Speaker 1: everyone healthy, So there's a tension. I think it's pretty
Speaker 1: clear that wearing masks social distancing, hand washing, making sure
Speaker 1: that if you're sick or have been exposed that you
Speaker 1: isolate UM that these precautions or these measures do work
Speaker 1: UM for college campuses. We actually just put out a
Speaker 1: paper last week recommending putting forward a series of four
Speaker 1: recommendations for reopening our college campuses, and I'm happy to
Speaker 1: just go through those very quickly. UM. The first is
Speaker 1: that we're really recommending that on top of all of
Speaker 1: the social discigs and mask and everything, this is specifically
Speaker 1: around COVID nineteen testing. It's recognizing that so many people,
Speaker 1: especially and including college aged kids, UM, are asymptomatic even
Speaker 1: though they may be COVID nineteen positive and may be
Speaker 1: able to infect other people. And so as a result,
Speaker 1: testing is really central to our strategies. So first, we're
Speaker 1: recommending that everyone get tested before they really engage back
Speaker 1: in the college campus, so either before they arrived back
Speaker 1: or right after they arrive. Secondly, we're recommending that they
Speaker 1: get tested about a week afterwards to pick up those
Speaker 1: people who might have gotten sick along the way or
Speaker 1: whose tests were inaccurate, because there are sometimes people may
Speaker 1: have the exposure but the test might not be positive.
Speaker 1: Then we recommend everyone who does become symptomatic get tested
Speaker 1: of course, and then finally we're also recommending that at
Speaker 1: least a sub set of people who are asymptomatic get
Speaker 1: tested regularly throughout the semester. So those are some of
Speaker 1: our recommendations. And so how feasible is that, I mean,
Speaker 1: you understand the business side of this very well, doctor Lee.
Speaker 1: How feasible is it for a regular, sort of everyday
Speaker 1: college or university to to really execute that plan? Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think most universities have been spending a lot of
Speaker 1: their summers not on holiday and not on break, but
Speaker 1: really studying this problem and figuring out how to manage
Speaker 1: their campuses. And I really have to have to give
Speaker 1: them a ton of credit for all the work that
Speaker 1: they've been doing. Um, there's the practical aspect of it
Speaker 1: which is challenging, but they all have student health services.
Speaker 1: There are a number of companies, including our own Verily,
Speaker 1: who are working on in these areas to try to
Speaker 1: support this effort. A lot of the lab testing companies
Speaker 1: have really stepped up as well to offer these services.
Speaker 1: In terms of the financial impact, the cost of the
Speaker 1: tests are coming down. There are a number of different
Speaker 1: companies that are in the space now and that's helping
Speaker 1: to increase competition and reduce the costs. So it's financially
Speaker 1: you know, I've estimated in this paper that we wrote
Speaker 1: maybe about five dollars per student for the semester for
Speaker 1: the testing, and you know, that's less than a couple
Speaker 1: of weeks of unemployment pay. So just sort of weighing
Speaker 1: up the trade offs, I think it is definitely worth
Speaker 1: that investment, but it sounds like bottom line, just got
Speaker 1: twenty seconds here, doctor Lee, that we need to have
Speaker 1: tests that are readibly available so we can almost every day,
Speaker 1: every week be taking them and quickly get the results.
Speaker 1: That's what it comes down to. That's right, until we
Speaker 1: have a good treatment or a vaccine, as we heard,
Speaker 1: we need tests that are available and turn around times
Speaker 1: that are quick. There's we can't wait weeks for the
Speaker 1: turnaround and needs to come back right away so that
Speaker 1: we know how to act and how to respond. That's
Speaker 1: a critical part for sure. Great to catch up with you.
Speaker 1: We hope you'll come back and spend more time with us.
Speaker 1: Vivian Ly, president of health Platforms that Verily Life Science,
Speaker 1: is also the author of The Long Fix Solving America's
Speaker 1: healthcare Crisis with strategies of work for everyone and giving
Speaker 1: us a strategy for back to school that it sounds
Speaker 1: like a lot of people maybe following our Thanks to her,
Speaker 1: we do have Joel Webber with us, of course, the
Speaker 1: editor of Bloomberg Business Week. He joins us from Massachusetts,
Speaker 1: along with Shelley Banjo, senior writer for Bloomberg. She's down
Speaker 1: in gorgeous Asheville, North Carolina. Lucky her, and she's got
Speaker 1: a terrific story along with Mark Bergen in the issue
Speaker 1: this current issue of Bloomberg Business Week. It's on the
Speaker 1: terminal and online today. Joel t this up. This is
Speaker 1: such an important topic. We've been talking so much about
Speaker 1: big tech and this is a slightly different twist but
Speaker 1: goes to so many of the big issues around big tech. So,
Speaker 1: you know, a week ago now, big tech sort of
Speaker 1: got grilled in front of lawmakers virtually. UM, and I
Speaker 1: think that it was part of uh something that we're
Speaker 1: going to see in a conversation that we're going to
Speaker 1: continue to have in the weeks and months ahead. UM
Speaker 1: And for Google SpeI typically that conversation is gonna be
Speaker 1: a lot about anti trust and what Mark and Shelley
Speaker 1: did in this story was not not so much to
Speaker 1: take the anti trust conversation head on, but to look
Speaker 1: at a corner of Google's business search ads that's literally
Speaker 1: what makes it such a power house and for certain
Speaker 1: small businesses, especially those in the service world, and get
Speaker 1: this in the middle of the pandemic, the ones that
Speaker 1: Mark and Shelley were wise to look at. Specifically, we're
Speaker 1: therapists and mental health professionals who have actually felt the
Speaker 1: impact of of Google's pricing power in a way that
Speaker 1: really resembles attacks. And I think this is gonna be
Speaker 1: something that will be fascinating how much lawmakers want to
Speaker 1: look at that. So, Shelly, what what are the nuances
Speaker 1: that you and Mark discovered as you sort of dug
Speaker 1: into how much power and dominance Google has in the
Speaker 1: search world. Yeah. The craziest thing about the story is that, um,
Speaker 1: you know, as these things go, is that we didn't
Speaker 1: actually sit out to right shut out to write an
Speaker 1: antitrust story. We were kind of curious with all these
Speaker 1: ads that kept popping up during the pandemic around mental health.
Speaker 1: I wanted to figure out like someone profiting off of
Speaker 1: this pandemic from like a mental health perspective, and we
Speaker 1: just started talking to therapists, and every big, single time
Speaker 1: we spoke to a therapist, it was Google, Google, Google,
Speaker 1: Google and UM. Particularly the one that we UM end
Speaker 1: up featuring the most in our story is this therapist
Speaker 1: UM named Ellen Ross who said, UM, you know, you
Speaker 1: can't have a business, my kind of business without without
Speaker 1: Google search. It's UM. You know, it's just like you know,
Speaker 1: she goes through her list of monthly bills and it's
Speaker 1: you know rent, uh, you know, heating or air conditioning,
Speaker 1: power and and Google. But what you noticed, Shelley, this
Speaker 1: is such a great story is that during the pandemic, UM.
Speaker 1: I think you know, you guys know in your story
Speaker 1: that the prices for regular keywords UM sharply And this
Speaker 1: is kind of a key way of getting noticed uh
Speaker 1: in the online world. Right, So during the pandemic, everything
Speaker 1: else shut down except for the Internet, and so UM
Speaker 1: that was really the only way for people to find
Speaker 1: you UM. And all of a sudden, searches for online
Speaker 1: therapy shot up as people started to realize, oh, shoot,
Speaker 1: like this is not something that's going to be over quickly.
Speaker 1: I'm going to need some help with this, UM. And
Speaker 1: it just became prohibitively expensive for um, some of these
Speaker 1: therapists to keep putting Google search ads and keep paying
Speaker 1: for them. That the problem is if you don't pay
Speaker 1: for the search ads, you're not going to get touch
Speaker 1: the customers. And Google's really pushing this. I mean you
Speaker 1: you have some great anecdotes about you know, the sales
Speaker 1: reps calling up you know, these therapists and and kind
Speaker 1: of putting the hard sell in them and using the
Speaker 1: economics and the economics of crisis really uh in many
Speaker 1: ways to to drive the business. Yeah, I mean, it's
Speaker 1: an interesting nuance because it's there's something wrong or illegal
Speaker 1: about making money especially during um, you know, pandemics or
Speaker 1: natural disasters. Every Bloomberg uh story regarding natural disasters will
Speaker 1: look into who's making money off of off of these
Speaker 1: kinds of things. Um. But at the same time, these
Speaker 1: people have no other choice, and Google can kind of
Speaker 1: take advantage of that by pushing things like automation um um,
Speaker 1: you know, not having as good as customer service and
Speaker 1: thinks that these people really rely on because there's no
Speaker 1: other place to go. And so the question is, once
Speaker 1: you become that monopoly and you have so much power,
Speaker 1: does it become then an antitrust issue, and so play
Speaker 1: that out a little bit, Shelly, Where where will lawmakers
Speaker 1: put their gaze? Um? And how does how does all
Speaker 1: of this fit together in the weeks ahead? Yeah, So,
Speaker 1: I mean search dominance in itself is not illegal, UM,
Speaker 1: And so the issue for lawmakers is trying to take
Speaker 1: her out. UM. Is Google actually abusing that power? And
Speaker 1: so one other part of the story that we look
Speaker 1: into is this idea of Google directing people to certain
Speaker 1: places that make the most money for them. So with
Speaker 1: therapy for example, now if you type in therapists, it's
Speaker 1: going to go up to UM. You're you're gonna spit
Speaker 1: out some UM therapists near you that on Google Maps
Speaker 1: that have paid for these services, and so UM, you know,
Speaker 1: just Google then take take over UM healthcare and search
Speaker 1: and and those types of things that previously might have
Speaker 1: gone UM to to other businesses. Are they going to
Speaker 1: be abusing that power? And what law lawmakers need to
Speaker 1: find out is, you know, does it go beyond just
Speaker 1: being big? Does it go beyond just UM having power?
Speaker 1: It's what do you do with that power? And UM
Speaker 1: is that part of that illegal? And so should we
Speaker 1: be you know what the Google conversation is one that
Speaker 1: is um obviously uh, something that the latmakers will probably
Speaker 1: focus on more more so than other big tech companies
Speaker 1: even perhaps, and and that that power that they have.
Speaker 1: When you actually talked to the small business owners and
Speaker 1: and the therapists that are in the story, you know,
Speaker 1: the thing that I found sort of so fascinating about
Speaker 1: it was like, at the end of the day, this
Speaker 1: is the option for them, right, So what other options
Speaker 1: do do they feel like they even have? Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean when you ask about being which is the second
Speaker 1: church engine, the therapist would just laugh, honestly, they would
Speaker 1: just beee like that's not a thing. Um, we we
Speaker 1: only have Google. Um. And the interesting thing is that
Speaker 1: Google likes to paint this big picture of competition. Would add, oh,
Speaker 1: there's Facebook, and there's um all sorts of different companies
Speaker 1: that even television and billboards like we fight with everyone. Um,
Speaker 1: but you know, uh at Amazon, but like as we
Speaker 1: point out in the store, like nobody's going on Amazon
Speaker 1: to search for a therapist, but at least not yet.
Speaker 1: And um, and so for these service providers, um, you
Speaker 1: know they really there really is no other option. And
Speaker 1: so you know, Google can talk about all the different
Speaker 1: competition that they fake, but in a lot of industries
Speaker 1: they're really the only game in town, and it's up
Speaker 1: to them to to, you know, kind of keep coloring
Speaker 1: in within the lines or or not, and if they don't,
Speaker 1: then the government can go after them. As as one
Speaker 1: source in your story, it's this says, the bigger question
Speaker 1: is whether Google is abusing its power. It really comes
Speaker 1: down to that. It's a great read. It's the cover
Speaker 1: story of the magazine. Shelley Banjo, thank you so much,
Speaker 1: senior writer at Bloomberg News, and thanks to Joe Webber,
Speaker 1: editor at Bloomberg Business Week. Well, and what's interesting is
Speaker 1: check out that story because it also points out that,
Speaker 1: you know, people are also taking advantage of YouTube owned
Speaker 1: by Google, and maybe they're doing a therapy session on
Speaker 1: a Google meet. So you know, this all encompassing nature
Speaker 1: is really something worth expoy. It's a great story by
Speaker 1: Shelly Panjo. Are thanks to her. Let's check in with
Speaker 1: our pal Emily Chason. She is back with us to
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about the world of green that
Speaker 1: is her vi is Sustainability editor for Blueberg, joiningus on
Speaker 1: the phone from New York City. Big green mortgage dilemma.
Speaker 1: All right, I know about a big green egg Emily Chason,
Speaker 1: I love grilling on that, But big green mortgage dilemma.
Speaker 1: This is a whole other thing. Talk about what's going
Speaker 1: on when it comes to mortgages, because people are thinking
Speaker 1: a lot about that right now, especially with right solo. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well it's interesting. You know, you go out and finance
Speaker 1: your mortgage today and it has nothing to do with
Speaker 1: how green your home is. And this is the thing
Speaker 1: that has actually happened more in the multi family housing
Speaker 1: market for apartment buildings and stuff, is that you can
Speaker 1: get lower race than your refinance or something if you're
Speaker 1: going to do um green improvements to your building as
Speaker 1: a landlord. But it hasn't quite made its way into
Speaker 1: residential mortgages. Yea, so um. This is a big question
Speaker 1: for banks in particular because when they look at trying
Speaker 1: to figure out the climate impact of their loans, um
Speaker 1: mortgages are sort of a big question mark. You don't
Speaker 1: really know which houses more energy efficients than others. So
Speaker 1: is it banks just not on board? We need the
Speaker 1: government to incent banks to do it, Like I feel like,
Speaker 1: you know, this is where tax policy right can be
Speaker 1: very persuasive, um, in terms of getting people to do something.
Speaker 1: So where's the breakdown, Emily? Yeah, Well, you know, Europe
Speaker 1: is further ahead, of course, as they normally are in
Speaker 1: this stuff, but they have an energy efficient Mortgages action plan.
Speaker 1: Their COVID nineteen green recovery plan could include you know,
Speaker 1: billions of euros a year and grants and guarantees for
Speaker 1: stealing up draft fee buildings or offering green mortgages. So, um,
Speaker 1: there is thf that can happen. What was really exciting
Speaker 1: this past week was that Fanny May sold its first
Speaker 1: um single family home green bonds, which could create a
Speaker 1: market for banks to sell green mortgages in the future.
Speaker 1: All Right, so if I May, I'm going to shift
Speaker 1: gears because I'm obsessed. Probably hungry. Are you hungry? I'm
Speaker 1: a little hungry. Um foe meat. Uh. I love impossible.
Speaker 1: In fact, I love impossible and beyond. In fact, on
Speaker 1: my way into the office this morning, I grabbed the
Speaker 1: Impossible sausage from Starbucks, which I have to say, I've
Speaker 1: said it on this program before. This is not a
Speaker 1: product endorsement. Impossible sausage at Starbucks better than the Beyond sausage.
Speaker 1: At Duncan. I've tried in both, trying to both multiple times,
Speaker 1: very tasty. We also know, Emily Jason, you know better
Speaker 1: than I that the venture world they see something work
Speaker 1: and they're like, hmm, is there anything else where we
Speaker 1: can invest in related to that? That is definitely happening
Speaker 1: when it comes to the so called alternative protein market. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I would say that, like sustainability companies in the market
Speaker 1: right now are super hot. Beyond Meat was one of
Speaker 1: the best performing I p o s in decades, right, um,
Speaker 1: So venture capital firms really want to see if they
Speaker 1: can repeat that, and they've basically doubled their bet on
Speaker 1: alternative protein makers this year, raising over a billion for
Speaker 1: startups that focus on everything from lab grown meat too,
Speaker 1: protein that comes from volcanic microbes. Um. Just this week
Speaker 1: there was on the actual meat side, there was an
Speaker 1: I p O of Vital Farms, which is like a
Speaker 1: sustainable butter and eggs company and sustainable agriculture and just
Speaker 1: that whole area. It had a huge pop of like
Speaker 1: in two days of training. Yeah, that's pretty cool I
Speaker 1: p O And I think it was that was it
Speaker 1: twenty two and it's now at forty and change. Um,
Speaker 1: so yeah, it's really it's really popped up big time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, should we anticipate there's gonna be a lot more?
Speaker 1: I feel like that's kind of a no brainer, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's gonna be a ton more an alternative meat. And
Speaker 1: I was talking to an investagor the week to focuses
Speaker 1: on alternative protein and says that meat is so boring.
Speaker 1: We've already figured out all the ways to make that efficient.
Speaker 1: And there's so much new stuff in um, sustainable meat
Speaker 1: and alternative meat. There's every you know, everyone wants to
Speaker 1: know what the flavor is, what the taste is, what's
Speaker 1: this kind is the other kind? So it's just more
Speaker 1: interesting for consumers. Everyone likes variety. So um, there's some
Speaker 1: big raises like Blackstone just did um a big bet
Speaker 1: on Totally, which is the Mills maker where the craze
Speaker 1: this morning. Yeah, valued the company at two billion. That
Speaker 1: was earlier this year. UM. Impossible Foods, which you were
Speaker 1: talking about earlier, they raised five million to support expansion globally.
Speaker 1: But there's also you know, smaller companies like Memphis Meats,
Speaker 1: which grows like lab grown meat. Um, they raised one
Speaker 1: fifty one million this year and um. Another company is
Speaker 1: called Nature's Find which makes this alternative protein developed from
Speaker 1: a volcanic microbe they discovered in Yellowstone Parks. They were
Speaker 1: looking for how NASA could develop protein um on Mars
Speaker 1: or something like that in the future, and they discovered
Speaker 1: this protein and now they're they're making uh food from it. Like,
Speaker 1: who needs to go to Mars? We can do it
Speaker 1: right here, all right, Emily Chason, thank you so much.
Speaker 1: She's our sustainability editor at Bloomberg and he's joining us
Speaker 1: on the phone in New York. Took out her work
Speaker 1: and took out all of the work that Bloomberg Green
Speaker 1: is doing. It's really a cool vertical. It's a broad
Speaker 1: brought worst. Yeah. I was gonna say, didn't you say?
Speaker 1: You went, oh yeah, the beyond me. Beyond that was
Speaker 1: the sausage, the like the Lynk sausage, right, like did
Speaker 1: you sort of like grilled her frien too. It's really good.
Speaker 1: This is broad worst that we did with Sara craud Like,
Speaker 1: it was really good. I mean, Emily is exactly right.
Speaker 1: It is all about the taste in many ways. And
Speaker 1: I think if you if you find something that tastes
Speaker 1: good and then you feel like it's better environmentally and
Speaker 1: it's better for you physically, Like you're gonna go with
Speaker 1: that journal. Yeah, but you let me drive? Oh no, no, no,
Speaker 1: I want to try. Just drive the question trying. This
Speaker 1: is the drive to the globe. Give me thanks. We'll
Speaker 1: drying us to dawn on Bluebird Radio. We've just got
Speaker 1: about eleven minutes left in today's trading session bouncing around,
Speaker 1: but we've got a rally underway, in particular, the dow
Speaker 1: up about one in a quarter percent. Let's drive to
Speaker 1: the clothes with Larry Pittkowski. He's co founder and portfolio
Speaker 1: manager at Goodhaven Capital Management, joining us once again on
Speaker 1: the phone in Millburn, New Jersey, which is where he
Speaker 1: is based. How are you. I am pretty well. How
Speaker 1: are you, Carol? Doing okay? Doing okay? You know, life
Speaker 1: is certainly abnormal. Uh, And we continue on. I am curious, um,
Speaker 1: how you see the second half? Do you see things improving?
Speaker 1: I think investors, Larry, right now are trying to figure
Speaker 1: out what's next. You know, Carol, I'm going to share
Speaker 1: with you one of the most important phrases in investing,
Speaker 1: which is I don't know and and I'm not I'm
Speaker 1: only I'm really not being facetious. Uh, I don't know.
Speaker 1: And I think the important thing is is to be
Speaker 1: able to find a couple of opportunities and ways to
Speaker 1: allocate capital when you don't know exactly what's coming. And
Speaker 1: I think the way you do that, you know, you
Speaker 1: need to look for where there are sectors that have
Speaker 1: not really participated in the rally, and you need to
Speaker 1: find things that appear undervalued. Even if we have a
Speaker 1: you know, very uneven economic situation, and this is an
Speaker 1: unusual period. I mean, even for those of us that
Speaker 1: have been around for a while and have seen a
Speaker 1: lot of different crisis is the last six months were
Speaker 1: some of the most unusual ever. Um So. But I
Speaker 1: think at good Haven we had a solid second quarter.
Speaker 1: I think we're about the nice oaks at live Or
Speaker 1: keep telling us we're near the top of our category.
Speaker 1: And I think we've still own a lot of cheap
Speaker 1: stocks that I think have plenty of upside, and I
Speaker 1: think we did some good buying during the downturn. But
Speaker 1: the range of economic outcomes from here is still very wide,
Speaker 1: um and I think that should play well for stock pickers. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, Larry, it's interesting to hear you say, you know,
Speaker 1: relatively cheap, because we were talking earlier in the show
Speaker 1: about a report at a Bank of America essentially saying, look,
Speaker 1: you need to be buying stocks ahead of a vaccine
Speaker 1: whenever that comes. Because even as we look at an
Speaker 1: SNP that may hit record levels, even as as Carroll
Speaker 1: just mentioned, we have the Dow up plus one percent
Speaker 1: or better right now, Um, you know, we are still
Speaker 1: looking at a market that if the economy does start
Speaker 1: to rev at all, there could be some opportunities for
Speaker 1: specific names. You know, Jason, I'm I'm the I'm the
Speaker 1: wayward child of a somewhat biblical family. So I'll leave,
Speaker 1: I'll leave you. I'll give you a biblical comment. You
Speaker 1: can't start building the York when it starts pouring rain.
Speaker 1: It doesn't work that way. You know, you need to
Speaker 1: have laid out a thesis ahead of when the rest
Speaker 1: of the world is discussing it. As a as a
Speaker 1: very smart friend friend of mine likes to always say,
Speaker 1: you can have cheap stocks or good headlines, but you
Speaker 1: can't have them both at the same time. Okay, So,
Speaker 1: for instance, you know, one of our biggest holdings is
Speaker 1: a gold miners Barrick Gold. Okay, nobody thought that was
Speaker 1: such an interesting idea a couple of years ago when
Speaker 1: we were making it a big holding. I mean, we've
Speaker 1: got questions and we've got you know, Snickers and whatnot. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, it's worked out very well. It's not really
Speaker 1: the thing I really want to talk about. But you know,
Speaker 1: you need to be looking for things that are not
Speaker 1: what everybody thinks today are the greatest idea because those
Speaker 1: are where the opportunities are. So does that mean you
Speaker 1: don't want to be in those big tech names at
Speaker 1: all that have just run up. I mean, they are
Speaker 1: so much the market right and there are so much
Speaker 1: the market momentum um. I know what you say about
Speaker 1: look for those sectors that haven't participated or those names
Speaker 1: that haven't participated in the rally. But you know, if
Speaker 1: you do that, you miss on some miss out on
Speaker 1: some tremendous gains. Well, I think there's a difference between
Speaker 1: saying this is something where I want to back up
Speaker 1: the truck today and versus it's something that I own
Speaker 1: that I'm I think that still has upside. You know,
Speaker 1: Alphabet is a one of our top three holdings. Now
Speaker 1: we've made many multiples of our money on it. The
Speaker 1: price is not in any way, you know, ridiculous compared
Speaker 1: to what the earnings might be a year and a
Speaker 1: half from now. I mean, I think I'm I'm not
Speaker 1: looking at the numbers, but I think it's probably exiting
Speaker 1: out the cash probably four times earnings a year and
Speaker 1: a half out. You know, that's that's hardly a ridiculous
Speaker 1: number for a company that should get back to growing, uh,
Speaker 1: that has a really dominant position. So there are areas
Speaker 1: that The interest thing about the current environment is you
Speaker 1: have pockets of euphoria, you have negative investor sentiment. Somebody
Speaker 1: just sent me the AI readings, which it's you know,
Speaker 1: the bullish sentiment is low. Okay, but yet you have
Speaker 1: pockets of euphoria, and yet you have certain sectors that
Speaker 1: have really not participated. So you know you need to
Speaker 1: if you own a great quality growing company like an alphabet. Okay.
Speaker 1: One of the mistakes to make in life is thinking, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, you have to sell it and realize the
Speaker 1: gain just to find something a little bit cheaper. Not necessarily.
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean there's not moments where there aren't better buys.
Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean you have to sell it and
Speaker 1: find something else. But you know, we have found areas
Speaker 1: lately that appear to be more attractive places for cash.
Speaker 1: So what are you just altogether avoiding at this moment?
Speaker 1: Larry Well, not to be facetious, but I always avoid
Speaker 1: things that I feel like I don't understand where the
Speaker 1: business is headed within a range, okay, and that's I
Speaker 1: think really important. I mean, it's it's important to buy
Speaker 1: things that attractive valuations, but if you don't think you
Speaker 1: understand what the business is going to look like a
Speaker 1: little bit down the road, I think you should avoid that.
Speaker 1: And by the way, I think the uh, you know,
Speaker 1: what you've seen lately is an acceleration of all kinds
Speaker 1: of trends that were happening anyway from a business model.
Speaker 1: Since um so there's plenty in the world of investing
Speaker 1: our allocating capital. You should pass on a very high
Speaker 1: percentage of the things you look at because you don't
Speaker 1: understand the business, you don't understand where it's going, or
Speaker 1: you know, you should just keep looking for the couple
Speaker 1: of things a year that you think you have an
Speaker 1: edgine understanding and our priced attractively. M hm, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: it makes sense. It's very logical, you know, in terms
Speaker 1: of looking at the market. All right, Larry, thank you
Speaker 1: so much. Good to check in with you. Larry Pitkowski,
Speaker 1: he's a founder portfolio manager at good Haven Capital Management.
Speaker 1: On the phone in Millbourne, New Jersey, which is where
Speaker 1: they're base, Jason, that's exactly right, great to New Jersey.
Speaker 1: I feel like it's well represented here, you know, from
Speaker 1: Larry Pikowski to Bruce Springsteen. You cut it all here
Speaker 1: at the Garden State. Uh. Yeah, we are looking at
Speaker 1: a little laughter or sarcasm and all of that, and
Speaker 1: you're making fun of idea what you're talking about? Are
Speaker 1: you making fun of New Jersey? You really get your
Speaker 1: hackles up when anybody says anything about New Jersey. It's
Speaker 1: sort of like when I question your knowledge of sports
Speaker 1: and you immediately don't make fun of the girl, and
Speaker 1: in reality, I'm just making fun of you. Oh I
Speaker 1: feel so much better. Where's Debbie when I need her? Oh? Boy? Yeah?
Speaker 1: She was carocious on the texting today. Yeah, sending you
Speaker 1: picks and programs from one like it's like blackmail material.
Speaker 1: Yeah it is, it is. Yeah, I don't know. I
Speaker 1: don't know about that. Brooks brothers back in the day.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening to Bloomberg Business Week. Download
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