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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio News.

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Speaker 2: I sat down with Senator Ran Paul of Kentucky, the

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Speaker 2: loan Republican who has consistently voted against both Republican and

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Speaker 2: Democratic spending bills that would reopen the government.

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Speaker 1: He's still a no.

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Speaker 2: I started by asking him if he thinks he's the

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Speaker 2: last fiscal hawk in his party.

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Speaker 3: Listen feels that way sometimes, Yeah. You know, the way

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Speaker 3: I look at the spending proposals is what amount of

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Speaker 3: debt will it add up to? So the Republican plan

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Speaker 3: this year, the Continuing Resolution led to about a two

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Speaker 3: trillion dollar deficit, and I look forward to see what

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Speaker 3: will it do if we do the same thing next year.

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Speaker 1: It's about a two point one trillion dollar deficit, so

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Speaker 1: it's actually worse. Now.

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Speaker 3: The Democrats are offering an alternative, but their alternative would

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Speaker 3: be three trillion dollars in debt. So I think neither

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Speaker 3: plan is a very good plan, and so I've offered

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Speaker 3: an alternative called the Penny Plan budget, which would taken

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Speaker 3: across the board, cut and the budget over about a

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Speaker 3: five year period. It would still add some debt, but

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Speaker 3: in the first year it would probably be half of

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Speaker 3: what they're looking at now.

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Speaker 2: I saw the penny plan that you posted on Twitter.

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Speaker 2: What happens when you walk in the cloakroom and talk

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Speaker 2: to your Republican colleagues, then, Senator, what do they tell

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Speaker 2: you when you try to make your case?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think they know where I'm coming from. When

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Speaker 3: we had to vote two weeks ago, thirty six Republicans

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Speaker 3: voted with me, So it's not like it's a minority.

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Speaker 1: Over half of my call is voted with me.

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Speaker 3: Now there's still sixteen big government Republicans who don't want

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Speaker 3: to cut any spending, and typically they work with the

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Speaker 3: big government Democrats and it is a bipartist spending problem

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Speaker 3: that we have here. But most of them, I think,

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Speaker 3: wish that they could be better and stronger. But I

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Speaker 3: think a lot of them think, well, I can't stake

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Speaker 3: out this position.

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Speaker 1: But when I get home, I get nothing but encouragement.

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Speaker 3: People at home are like, thank you for standing your ground,

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Speaker 3: thank you for standing up for what you said you

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Speaker 3: were running on, which was balancing the budget.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, are people at home, I'm talking to you about

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Speaker 2: healthcare as well, the extent to which there's concern about

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Speaker 2: Obamacare subsidies expiring at the end of the year. This

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Speaker 2: is the talk, and the President says that he's in

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Speaker 2: discussions with Democrats about this. Is that the off ramp.

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Speaker 3: Most of our conversations at home have been with people

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Speaker 3: affected by tariffs. So the number one issue I get

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Speaker 3: wherever I go in the state is tariffs are killing

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Speaker 3: the family farm. Tariffs are killing the bourbon industry. Tariff

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Speaker 3: is killing the cargo transport industry. So there's all kinds

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Speaker 3: of talk, but mostly of tariffs. On the idea of healthcare,

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Speaker 3: I hear mostly from small businesses that are not in

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Speaker 3: the Obamacare exchange but feel like they don't have the

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Speaker 3: leverage to get a good price. So what I've been

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Speaker 3: offering for years for people who are worried about the

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Speaker 3: price of healthcare is I'd like to let people buy

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Speaker 3: it through an entity like Costco, which has forty four

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Speaker 3: million members. I'd like to make it legal for you

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Speaker 3: just to go Costco, and then somebody from Costco would

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Speaker 3: negotiate for forty four million members and have the leverage

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Speaker 3: to drive prices down. It's that individual a market of

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Speaker 3: small business men and women who have trouble with the

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Speaker 3: health insurance. Then there's a whole government subsidy part. But

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Speaker 3: the reason you can't just give everybody money to is

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Speaker 3: we don't have the money to give to them.

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Speaker 1: We have to borrow it from China. That leads to

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Speaker 1: inflation and poor people.

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Speaker 3: Think they're getting something free on one hand, but the

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Speaker 3: other hands in their pocket stealing their paycheck with inflation.

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Speaker 2: Well, of course, you know that's what Chuck Schumer is

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Speaker 2: calling for, and Democrats that they want to have a

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Speaker 2: negotiation over these subsidies. When you hear Schumer shutdown, it's

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Speaker 2: almost a drinking game around here at this point, Senator,

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Speaker 2: we hear that every day from Republicans who join us.

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Speaker 2: Is that a disingenuous line when it comes to describing

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Speaker 2: this situation? Is it more complicated than that? Or actually

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Speaker 2: how you see it from the other side of the aisle.

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Speaker 3: I would say a lot of people are at fault

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Speaker 3: for devolving this debate down to maybe a third grade

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Speaker 3: level and not really thinking it through. The vote isn't

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Speaker 3: on shutting government down or keeping government open. The vote

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Speaker 3: is on what level of.

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Speaker 1: Spending can you tolerate? What level of debt can you tolerate?

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Speaker 1: And I think there can be.

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Speaker 3: Valid reasons now The reason why I think the Democrats

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Speaker 3: are less valid at this point are because forty eight

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Speaker 3: of them voted or forty seven of them voted in

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Speaker 3: December of last year for the identical bill. See, we're

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Speaker 3: still living under the Biden spending levels. That's why I'm

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Speaker 3: opposed to it. I voted against the Bidens spending levels

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Speaker 3: when they came from Democrats and when they're coming from Republicans.

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Speaker 3: But these Democrats voted for the identical bill in December

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Speaker 3: of twenty four. They're faced with the exact same vote

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Speaker 3: now and they've changed. Why because they've moved the goalpost.

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Speaker 3: This whole idea of Obamacare subsidies has never been a

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Speaker 3: part of the continuing resolution debate. It's something the Democrats

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Speaker 3: put forward is expiring because the Democrats allowed it to

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Speaker 3: expire in their own legislation. So there's a bit of

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Speaker 3: disingenuousness on their part.

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Speaker 2: Well, it is interesting as well, you didn't mention AOC

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Speaker 2: which usually comes with the talking points on this, and

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Speaker 2: it is Rich Irony the Senator that Republicans are now

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Speaker 2: urging Democrats to vote on this bill that they once

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Speaker 2: found toxic. And I guess this is why a lot

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Speaker 2: of people have trouble understanding Washington here. What's your gut?

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Speaker 2: Just before we move on, I'd like to ask you

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Speaker 2: about a couple of other things. Does the government set

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Speaker 2: a new record for shutdowns here? And is the President

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Speaker 2: applying pressure on you?

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Speaker 1: No? I think it lasts a few more days.

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Speaker 3: The Democrats are have to put on a show for

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Speaker 3: their left wing, so the social swing of the party

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Speaker 3: is hitting them. They saying they don't stand up for

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Speaker 3: you know, government subsidies for government welfare strong enough.

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Speaker 1: So I think there's a rally this weekend in Washington.

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Speaker 3: The rumor is the Democrats have to put on a

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Speaker 3: show through the rally. Once they've made it through the

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Speaker 3: rally and the left wing doesn't come after their and

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Speaker 3: eat their own, then they'll capitulate and say that they

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Speaker 3: want a deal and they'll open the government. You're still

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Speaker 3: a no though, right, Yeah, I'm an know because I've

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Speaker 3: been a no against the spending levels. But I'm gonna

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Speaker 3: know for different reasons, not for partisan reasons, not for

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Speaker 3: anything to do with the Obamacare substitutes. I'm gonna know

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Speaker 3: because both the Republican and Democrat plan offer us too

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Speaker 3: much debt.

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Speaker 2: I want to ask you about what's going on in

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Speaker 2: the Caribbean, Senator Ran Paul, and specifically when it comes

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Speaker 2: to Venezuela, and you've been outspoken about this. You commented

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Speaker 2: around fears of extraditional killings following the first boat. We've

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Speaker 2: now had four. Your concern about the president's actions here?

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Speaker 2: Is he looking for regime change in Venezuela?

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Speaker 3: You know, I don't know, but we did discover today

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Speaker 3: that the Coastguard, when they interdict boats, it's a common

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Speaker 3: thing off the coast of Miami in California, about twenty

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Speaker 3: five percent of the time, the boat that they bored

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Speaker 3: doesn't have drugs on it, so they've made an error,

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Speaker 3: but they.

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Speaker 1: Don't kill them.

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Speaker 3: But we've blown up four boats now, and if the

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Speaker 3: percentage is hold true, did one of those four boats

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Speaker 3: not have drug dealers on it? If they all had

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Speaker 3: drug dealers on it? You know, the first eleven they killed,

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Speaker 3: what were their names? What was the evidence linking them

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Speaker 3: to being part of a gang? So I think there's

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Speaker 3: a lot of unknowns here, and I don't think you

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Speaker 3: can have a universal Coast Guard policy of just blowing

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Speaker 3: up boats before their interdiction. There's decades long history of

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Speaker 3: how we board votes. We say halt stop, we will

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Speaker 3: board your boat. If they don't halt and stop, there's

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Speaker 3: an escalation of use of force. But we don't just

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Speaker 3: blow ships up. So there is a real problem.

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Speaker 1: And yes, I think it might lead to regime change.

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Speaker 3: And some of the more skeptical among us think that

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Speaker 3: maybe this is a provocation to lead to real regime change,

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Speaker 3: of provocation to get the Venezuelans to react so we

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Speaker 3: can then insert the military.

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Speaker 1: I hope that's not true.

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Speaker 2: Well, I know you're very familiar with these rules as

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Speaker 2: chairman of the Senate Homeland Security Committee, and there's been

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Speaker 2: a question more recently about whether there's a congressional answer

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Speaker 2: to this. Would you support a War Powers Act with

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Speaker 2: eyes on Venezuela.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I will cosponsor the War Powers Act later this

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Speaker 3: week and we will be discussing this on the floor.

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Speaker 3: I think it's one of the most important debates we have,

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Speaker 3: and the idea that you can kill someone who you

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Speaker 3: don't know their name and has had no process at all.

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Speaker 3: People say, oh, you're going to give due process to

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Speaker 3: fentanyl killers and.

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Speaker 1: All of this.

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Speaker 3: Even in our country, twenty thousand people commit murders, and

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Speaker 3: as angry as we are, if it or my family,

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Speaker 3: I would want to shoot them. But we still have

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Speaker 3: trials because occasionally the accused is found innocent and not guilty.

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Speaker 3: Occasionally we make mistakes, but we can't have a policy

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Speaker 3: where we just blow up ships where we don't even

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Speaker 3: know the people's names. It can't be the policy for

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Speaker 3: drug interdiction, either in the country or outside the country.

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Speaker 3: So I will support a war resolution to say the

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Speaker 3: government shouldn't be doing this.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's really that's news, Senator, really interesting that you're

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Speaker 2: going to put your name on this. Do you have

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Speaker 2: other Republicans that we'll support that legislation.

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Speaker 3: There will be people quietly who will say it's the

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Speaker 3: right thing to do, and will respect me for doing

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Speaker 3: the right thing. I think most will be afraid of

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Speaker 3: the response from the White House.

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Speaker 2: President just announced a stake in Trilogy Medals. Now this

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Speaker 2: is the fourth company by my count with a true

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Speaker 2: a government equity stake. There is also the Golden Share

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Speaker 2: when it comes to US steel. Is there any position

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Speaker 2: in which you would support these moves as MP materials,

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Speaker 2: for instance, an exemption in the name of national security.

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Speaker 2: Are we going down the wrong road here. You've called

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Speaker 2: this a step towards socialism. Now that we have more companies,

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Speaker 2: are we ever closer?

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Speaker 3: You know, I wrote a book called The Case against Socialism,

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Speaker 3: and so I'm not for government ownership of the means

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Speaker 3: of production. But I'm also not for the government owning

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Speaker 3: ten percent of the means of production.

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Speaker 1: There are all.

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Speaker 3: Various forms and degrees of socialism. I do think that

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Speaker 3: the law, also the statute that gave money to these companies.

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Speaker 3: I was against it because I'm against subsidies, particularly when

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Speaker 3: we have to borrow them. But the law didn't indicate

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Speaker 3: any power or transfer any power to the president to say,

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Speaker 3: instead of a grant we're going to give you, we're

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Speaker 3: going to have stock in your company, and that's the

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Speaker 3: only way you get it. Those conditions weren't contemplated in

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Speaker 3: the law. So I suspect eventually this will go to court.

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Speaker 3: I've been surprised how quickly the companies have acquiesced in it,

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Speaker 3: but I guess it is free money from their perspective,

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Speaker 3: and when you get free money, it's hard to turn

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Speaker 3: away from that. But now I don't like it. I

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Speaker 3: don't like the government sort of saying to Navidia. Hey,

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Speaker 3: hey guys, yeah, you can sell in China this year,

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Speaker 3: but we want fifteen percent. You know, we wont fifteen percent.

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Speaker 3: There is no legal authority to do things like that.

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Speaker 3: And you know, my problem is, imagine what this would

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Speaker 3: be like if you had Mondami as president or as president.

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Speaker 1: There's my talking point. It came back in if AOC

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Speaker 1: were president.

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Speaker 3: Can you imagine what would it mean for her to

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Speaker 3: own the companies?

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Speaker 1: What if she owned ten percent of Exon? What if

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Speaker 1: she owned ten percent of the oil companies? Oh my goodness.

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Speaker 3: So I don't want reveuvements order democrats to own the companies.

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Speaker 1: It's a terrible idea.

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Speaker 2: Duly noted when you think about what we're discussing here, though,

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Speaker 2: socialism with regard to government stakes in publicly traded companies.

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Speaker 2: In the case of Intel, you've got Trilogy Metals. Now

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Speaker 2: we can talk about TikTok and the integrity of Congress

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Speaker 2: authoritarianism when it comes to extra digital killings off Venezuela.

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Speaker 2: We've all done this in just ten minutes, Senator. So

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Speaker 2: is Donald Trump an autocrat?

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Speaker 3: But the interesting thing is, despite my complaints, despite my pushback,

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Speaker 3: I still think he's the best president of our lifetime. Frankly,

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Speaker 3: I would vote him a million times over a socialist

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Speaker 3: like Aaron's or a president like Biden who is unable

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Speaker 3: to really perform the functions of the job. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: on so many things, he's for lower taxes, less regulation,

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Speaker 3: he's war pro business.

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Speaker 1: Doesn't mean I agree with everything.

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Speaker 3: But just because I have disagreements, and some of the

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Speaker 3: things are big disagreements, doesn't mean that I actually, frankly,

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Speaker 3: don't think he's a great president.

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Speaker 2: You think federal workers should get back pay when the sents.

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Speaker 3: They always do. It's not a matter of will they

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Speaker 3: they always do, and it'll be part of the deal.

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Speaker 3: The Democrats will fold within a week. But part of

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Speaker 3: the deal is that all the union workers that work

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Speaker 3: for the federal government we'll get back.

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Speaker 2: Bay Republican Senator Ran Paul of Kentucky talking with US

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Speaker 2: earlier today. He remains a no vote on this day

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Speaker 2: seven of the government shutdown.