WEBVTT - Confronting Sora: How Hollywood Should Heed Tyler Perry's AI Warning 0:00:08.080 --> 0:00:12.000 Welcome to another episode of Strictly Business, the podcast in 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:14.360 which we speak with some of the brightest minds working 0:00:14.360 --> 0:00:18.599 in the media business today. I'm Andrew Wallenstein with Variety. 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:23.440 The handwringing over what generative AI could mean for Hollywood 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:27.560 is nothing new, certainly not since last year's strikes, but 0:00:27.680 --> 0:00:30.520 concerns have ratcheted up to a whole new level in 0:00:30.560 --> 0:00:34.839 recent weeks when Open Ai gave the world a glimpse 0:00:34.880 --> 0:00:39.400 of its upcoming text to video tool SORA. At first, 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:41.960 the assessments that we were witnessing the end of the 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:45.560 entertainment industry as we know it were limited to social media, 0:00:46.000 --> 0:00:48.880 but then last week mogul Tyler Perry upped the Annie 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:52.760 by publicly declaring SORA had prompted him to stop construction 0:00:53.040 --> 0:00:56.840 on an eight hundred million dollar expansion of his studio 0:00:56.960 --> 0:01:01.120 in Atlanta, and he beseeched Congress to say, the industry, 0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:06.120 so what's going on here? Overreaction or is it even 0:01:06.240 --> 0:01:10.400 possible underestimation? To help me make sense of it all, 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:14.880 I've enlisted Steven Zeitchik, who has been closely tracking the 0:01:14.959 --> 0:01:20.800 intersection of AI and entertainment at his buzzworthy Substack Mind 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:31.360 and Iron. We will be back with him after these messages, 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:35.240 and we are back with Steve Zeitchik, formerly of The 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:39.640 Washington Post, The Los Angeles Times, and other august publications, 0:01:40.040 --> 0:01:44.000 where he has written extensively about media and tech, most 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:48.080 recently on his substack Mind and Iron, which is available 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:52.200 every Thursday. You can check it out at mindanron dot com. 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:55.280 I'm also lucky to call him a close friend for 0:01:55.360 --> 0:01:58.640 more than two decades. But this is our very first 0:01:58.680 --> 0:02:01.720 podcast together, and I can think of no better subject 0:02:01.720 --> 0:02:04.440 to finally bring us together than one that some say 0:02:05.200 --> 0:02:08.480 represents the dawn of a new era in entertainment, the 0:02:08.560 --> 0:02:12.200 profound implications. So Steve, I want to hear what you 0:02:12.440 --> 0:02:15.520 have to say. No pressure, but thanks for stopping by. 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:16.400 Andy. 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:18.520 It's great to be here, as you say, after all 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:21.120 these decades. Of course, we did meet when we were 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:23.680 four years old, so two decades, you know, doesn't take 0:02:23.760 --> 0:02:24.560 us back that far. 0:02:25.639 --> 0:02:26.560 Yeah, I mean, Sora. 0:02:26.680 --> 0:02:30.360 It has been a fascinating time, obviously really starting with 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:32.480 the release of Chat GPT all the way back in 0:02:32.520 --> 0:02:35.800 November twenty two. But the anti as you note, was 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:38.880 incredibly upped a couple of weeks ago when open Ai 0:02:39.440 --> 0:02:40.080 release Sora. 0:02:40.320 --> 0:02:42.560 This is the text to video. 0:02:44.200 --> 0:02:47.119 Basically platform or program that open Ai has not yet 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:51.960 released commercially, but they're unrolling it, probably in the notcho 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:54.880 just in future. And essentially, what text to video means 0:02:54.960 --> 0:02:57.320 is you can put in a text input the way 0:02:57.320 --> 0:02:59.919 you can with Chat GPT for text or the Dot 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:01.840 and Mid Journeys of the World for images. 0:03:02.120 --> 0:03:02.760 You can do the. 0:03:02.720 --> 0:03:07.800 Same now for video and have incredibly realistic looking with 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:10.200 only some slight bugs. As I'm sure we'll get into 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:14.440 video and the power of such a tool. We've heard 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:16.880 about it for a long time. We sort of sci 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:19.160 fi writers have kind of dreamed of it. I don't 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:20.639 know if any of us thought we would actually see 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:23.320 the day. Certainly did not imagine. I think many of 0:03:23.400 --> 0:03:25.720 us did not imagine seeing it so soon. Here we are, 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:29.000 very early in twenty twenty four, already potentially with the 0:03:29.040 --> 0:03:32.959 capability to do this, but Soras here and it's only 0:03:32.960 --> 0:03:34.000 going to be coming on stronger. 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:39.640 So what was it exactly that people found so mind blowing, Because, 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:44.200 as you said, there were other applications in the marketplace already. 0:03:44.280 --> 0:03:46.840 Text to video wasn't entirely new. 0:03:48.040 --> 0:03:49.760 Yeah, it's a good question, and I think, you know, 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:52.080 these things are all sort of you know, a little 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:53.840 bit of that that Fitzgerald, you know, how did you 0:03:53.880 --> 0:03:56.240 go broke gradually at first or then all at once 0:03:56.320 --> 0:03:56.800 or hemingway. 0:03:56.800 --> 0:03:58.000 I always forget who it was, But. 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:01.240 That's certainly been the trajectory of AI, where it's kind 0:04:01.280 --> 0:04:04.000 of like, oh, it's very incremental, it's very slow, it's 0:04:04.080 --> 0:04:06.040 very slow, and then all of a sudden it seems 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:09.120 to be here, and we ask how it happened so quickly. So, yes, 0:04:09.200 --> 0:04:12.920 there certainly have been some kind of video applications, I 0:04:12.920 --> 0:04:14.360 don't think nearly as smooth. 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:16.440 And I think one of the reasons. 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:18.560 This took people back, certainly for those of us with 0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:21.000 a long enough memory to go back to the earlier, 0:04:21.040 --> 0:04:23.600 earlier days of the Internet, is that, if you remember, 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:27.560 the sort of distribution of a lot of these different 0:04:27.600 --> 0:04:30.400 forms of media really took a long time to evolve. 0:04:30.440 --> 0:04:33.080 I mean, you know, people were using email back in 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:36.480 the early nineties. I don't think we were seeing video 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:40.320 really distributed widely for you know, ten to fifteen years 0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:42.839 after that. And so while on the one hand, AI 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:45.400 of course has been in development for many decades, some 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:47.719 of your listeners may know about Elizo, which was a 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:51.000 kind of a text based chatbot back in the sixties. 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:53.360 But the reality is, for most people and for most 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:56.960 modern use cases, we really have not had any sort 0:04:56.960 --> 0:04:59.840 of widely deployed AI until just you know, a little 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:02.640 a year ago with chat GPT and so to go 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:06.559 from a text based you know, application to a video 0:05:06.600 --> 0:05:09.560 based one and literally, you know, fourteen months. When you 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:13.080 think about you know, previous uh, you know evolutions took 0:05:13.120 --> 0:05:13.880 fourteen years. 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:16.400 I think that's partly why people are so shocked by this. 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:21.960 I think there was something also about what was in market. 0:05:22.320 --> 0:05:26.920 Uh prior to Sora had just lasted clips that were 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:31.279 about four seconds, and there was something about getting to 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:34.960 that one minute mark that Sora that was able was 0:05:35.040 --> 0:05:39.040 able to do that. I mean that I think really 0:05:39.160 --> 0:05:42.680 woke people up to the fact that this technology was 0:05:42.720 --> 0:05:46.599 evolving very quickly. But see, here's the thing for me, 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:51.840 I think there's for me, I'm not so quick to 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:56.159 presume that means that going forward, there's going to be 0:05:56.279 --> 0:06:01.040 some uninterrupted hockey stick you know, evolution up into the right. 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:04.080 That means that, you know, by the end of the year, 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:07.120 Sora is going to be spitting out a ninety minute 0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:11.240 movie that's going to be ready for theatrical distribution. What 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:13.800 do you think in terms of the evolution of this 0:06:13.880 --> 0:06:15.479 stuff going forward from here? 0:06:16.520 --> 0:06:19.880 Yeah, no, I think the length is a very big question. 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:22.960 I mean, certainly you're right that the quantum leap we've 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:26.400 just had is nothing short or remarkable. Whether you think 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:28.279 this is a good thing or not. When I say remarkable, 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:31.200 I don't mean that it's going to save humanity. 0:06:31.200 --> 0:06:32.840 It could also be its destruction. 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:36.600 But certainly, in terms of the tech and the kind 0:06:36.640 --> 0:06:40.160 of form factor here, it's really remarkable that we've gone 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:42.839 from either as you say, very short videos are really 0:06:42.839 --> 0:06:45.800 even still images, to a full minute. But yeah, the 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:48.919 technical challenges without sort of getting or boring anyone with 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:53.919 the engineering or kind of processing requirements here, but the 0:06:54.080 --> 0:06:57.960 kind of capabilities needed to go from a minute to 0:06:58.800 --> 0:07:00.320 you know, let's say, I don't know, even a twenty 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:03.440 five minute episode of television is not simply a factor 0:07:03.480 --> 0:07:05.880 of you know, twenty five where you can just stack 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:08.279 minute long videos together. First of all, they would not, 0:07:08.720 --> 0:07:10.600 you'd have to stitch them essentially in a way that 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:13.160 would not work. And then even doing a lot of 0:07:13.200 --> 0:07:16.080 limited videos, I mean we know how much power even 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:18.600 one minute takes. So I don't think we're going to 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:21.480 see full length forget feature films, but even even you know, 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:26.560 shorter you know, sitcom type episodes anytime soon. But I 0:07:26.600 --> 0:07:29.520 think that the future is now in the sense that 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:31.840 it will only be a matter of time. I mean, 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:34.440 to me, the question of the question of time is 0:07:34.480 --> 0:07:37.120 not really a significant one. You know. Again, a lot 0:07:37.120 --> 0:07:40.120 of this is about processing power. You know, basically, how 0:07:40.120 --> 0:07:44.240 computers can handle this much data and sort of troll 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:48.680 this much data in a short amount of time that 0:07:48.760 --> 0:07:52.760 we will get there. I'm not concerned from a technical standpoint. 0:07:52.800 --> 0:07:55.280 I don't think there's any there's any kind of hindrance there. 0:07:55.400 --> 0:07:57.480 I think the question is how good will it be 0:07:57.960 --> 0:07:59.440 when we do get there? I mean, and I don't 0:07:59.440 --> 0:08:01.000 know if you want to get into the challenges now, 0:08:01.040 --> 0:08:03.480 but even in the one minute, we know about all 0:08:03.560 --> 0:08:05.360 the laws of physics that are being defined. 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:08.520 You know, the cat with the with the fifth leg. 0:08:08.480 --> 0:08:11.720 Or the you know, or the hand key that never 0:08:11.760 --> 0:08:15.720 gets eaten, yeah, the extra hand, the person who's flying backwards. 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:18.720 I mean, all of these are not small challenges. It's 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:21.360 not like a case. I mean, yes, you could have 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:23.880 humans go in and fix that, as you can with 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:27.800 any sort of animation, but that essentially defeats the purpose 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:29.240 of having a machine do this. I mean, you could 0:08:29.240 --> 0:08:31.560 also have a human design this whole thing in an 0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:34.360 animation studio. So I think that will be The question 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:36.800 in terms of the democratization is not so much when 0:08:36.800 --> 0:08:38.959 we can get to the length, because look, people will 0:08:38.960 --> 0:08:40.280 play with minute long formats. 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:42.640 We have TikTok videos that are ten seconds that go viral. 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:45.720 I'm not really and eventually we will get to the 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:48.120 twenty five minute or ninety five minute mark. I think 0:08:48.160 --> 0:08:49.840 the question is how good will they be when we do? 0:08:50.800 --> 0:08:52.640 But still, I want to like, just back up for 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:56.400 a second. I'm just picturing like your mom, my mom 0:08:56.480 --> 0:08:58.520 listening to this podcast, and I just want to make 0:08:58.520 --> 0:09:01.920 sure they understand the implications because you know, they love 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:07.960 podcasts of what we're talking about. Where you know, the 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:11.360 way I want to explain it is, you know, the 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:16.080 way it's always worked if you wanted to shoot a 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:19.720 scene of something was you know, you had to have 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:24.400 cameras and actors or at least animation, or you know, 0:09:24.880 --> 0:09:29.559 a set or a location. And now, thanks to this software, 0:09:30.320 --> 0:09:34.320 all you need is a computer and then you, you know, 0:09:34.400 --> 0:09:38.840 you whisper some text instructions into you know, Sora's ear, 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:44.359 and Sora simply ushers into existence. What all that equipment 0:09:44.600 --> 0:09:49.520 and all the cost and time and manpower that comes 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:54.320 with that and every all of that is no longer 0:09:54.360 --> 0:10:01.920 necessary and that is simply revolutionary now. Soa as we 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:05.160 currently know it, I think we've just made clear is 0:10:05.679 --> 0:10:08.400 not ready for prime time. But it's not about where 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:13.000 it's at now, it's about where it could be in 0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:19.160 the future. So if you are in uh, you know, 0:10:19.320 --> 0:10:25.840 a traditional Hollywood production company studio, how are you not 0:10:26.280 --> 0:10:27.640 freaking out? 0:10:28.840 --> 0:10:30.520 Yeah? Well, for for better or worse. 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:32.959 Neither of us run studios that I think normally maybe 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:35.760 for worse, although on a day like today and after 0:10:35.800 --> 0:10:37.480 the release of Soura, maybe it's a good thing we're 0:10:37.520 --> 0:10:38.520 not dealing with this problem. 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:40.319 But but look, you're absolutely right. 0:10:40.360 --> 0:10:45.400 I mean, the the the transformation, the transform transformational moment 0:10:45.440 --> 0:10:49.280 we're in is is uh is striking and is I 0:10:49.320 --> 0:10:51.120 would you know you you talk about just being able 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:53.480 to speak, and you know, our our mother is being 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:55.440 able to speak and a video is created. 0:10:55.480 --> 0:10:56.840 I mean, you know, think. 0:10:56.640 --> 0:10:59.480 About what just what that's meant for distribution for so 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:01.960 many years, where it's like, you know, it used to 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:04.920 take you know, an engineering degree, and if that if 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:07.800 you can even do it to send a video to basically, 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:10.440 you know, tell your your friends that, hey, look at 0:11:10.440 --> 0:11:13.720 this cute thing my my my grandkid did, or my 0:11:13.840 --> 0:11:16.000 friend did, or my nephew did, or my child did. 0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:18.959 And now, of course, with a flick of a keystroke 0:11:19.120 --> 0:11:21.160 or a swipe of a screen, we can do that. 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:24.200 And so essentially what we're now doing is pourting that 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:28.040 over to not just a distribution but the production. And 0:11:28.480 --> 0:11:31.520 I think that really dovetails right into your question about 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:34.040 you know, where where Hollywood studios are going to take 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:35.640 this and how worried they should be about where it's 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:37.920 going to go. I mean, you know, and you were 0:11:37.920 --> 0:11:40.280 there covering it right at the dawn of the YouTube age, 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:42.520 where it's like the studios are sort of like, what 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:44.640 are we going to do that anyone can kind of 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:46.839 upload and share videos? And how is that going to 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:49.199 disrupt our business? We know what Google did about it. 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:51.360 They went out and bought YouTube and we saw eventually 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:54.920 after Netflix and other companies kind of ate their lunch, 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:57.800 how the legacy media outlets started to react, and I 0:11:57.800 --> 0:12:00.120 think that's a bit of a good template maybe for 0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:04.480 how to see this moment from a production standpoint. If 0:12:04.480 --> 0:12:07.280 you're a studio, which is to say, massive fears of 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:09.640 disruption and is this going to take away our business? 0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:12.840 And let's be real, you know the netflixes. 0:12:12.320 --> 0:12:15.280 Of the world that the automation of the distribution or 0:12:15.320 --> 0:12:18.520 the ease of distribution did, in many ways, you know, 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:20.440 take away a lot of their business. And I think 0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:23.800 that can and very much in some cases will happen 0:12:24.160 --> 0:12:26.640 on the production side. That said, I don't think anyone 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:30.360 feels like Hollywood studios have gone away because of streaming. 0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:32.600 In some ways, it's been another it's been a bood 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:35.120 for them. It's been a revenue stream. It's disrupted them 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:39.000 and it's and it's been their salvation. And although I 0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:40.839 don't think we quite yet know how it's going to 0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:43.000 play out, I think using that as a sort of 0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:47.320 rubric to say, look, the automation of production, much like 0:12:47.320 --> 0:12:51.280 the automation of distribution, is going to be incredibly disruptive. 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:54.319 It's going to create you know, years, if. 0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:58.000 Not more, of you know, new business models, of people 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:00.360 having to learn new skills of people losing their jobs, 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:05.400 maybe some other people getting jobs, but ultimately, I don't 0:13:05.440 --> 0:13:08.160 think from where I sit, and I'm not you know me, 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:11.000 I'm not usually a Pollyanna about this stuff. I don't 0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:14.080 think it's going to bring down the traditional business anymore 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:17.360 than streaming, I e. The distribution side of this brought 0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:21.200 down Hollywood. I think it just fundamentally transformed Hollywood, and 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:22.640 I think we're going to get to that point as well. 0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:28.280 Here well, enter Tyler Perry or should I say Chicken Little. 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:31.199 What I mean by that is he gives his interview 0:13:31.200 --> 0:13:34.079 to the Hollywood Reporter in which he declares the sky 0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:38.160 is falling. You know, he makes some really really bold 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:43.960 statements to quote, you know, just a few of them. 0:13:44.000 --> 0:13:47.440 Here's one quote, there's got to be some sort of 0:13:47.520 --> 0:13:51.040 regulations in order to protect us. If not, I just 0:13:51.200 --> 0:13:53.400 don't see how we survive. 0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:54.959 End quote. 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:59.480 I love the wei, by the way, as if, as 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:02.880 if he's in the same tax bracket as the people 0:14:02.920 --> 0:14:06.080 he's trying to protect. But now, look, I mean give 0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:08.760 the guy credit for doing at least what no one 0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:12.320 else in his tax bracket seems willing to do, which 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:15.520 is to get out there and ring the alarm in 0:14:15.600 --> 0:14:21.280 a major way. The question though, is, you know, is 0:14:21.400 --> 0:14:25.160 he being hysterical or responsible? 0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:28.040 Yeah, and I think maybe a little bit of both. 0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:30.040 And just to go back for a second to your 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:34.960 week question, I think both tax bracket and job responsibility 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:37.600 I think needs to be delineated there because and even 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:40.440 said it himself, he's like, look, as an employer, as 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:43.640 a boss, as an executive, this is really, you know, 0:14:43.760 --> 0:14:46.640 kind of my wildest fantasy. It's like, you can automate 0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:49.680 large parts of the of the the assembly line, as 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:51.400 it were, and if you're trying to, you know, you're 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:53.320 worried about costs. And even Tyler Perry has to worry 0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:55.920 about costs. Suddenly you just saved on a whole bunch 0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:58.560 of animators or certainly kind of are able to scale 0:14:58.600 --> 0:15:00.200 back a lot of what a lot of of the 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:02.440 sort of uh kind of spade work that had to 0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:04.000 be done or grown work that had to be done 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:07.760 by by humans. So I think from that perspective, he's 0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:10.560 probably not freaking out too much. But as he also notes, 0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:13.880 as an actor, as a uh you know. 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:15.240 As a as a as. 0:15:15.120 --> 0:15:18.920 A craftsman, as a fellow, you know, employee of a 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:21.520 lot of the people who work for him. Clearly there's 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:23.520 there's a lot of disruption there. I mean, look, this 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:26.760 is you know, I don't think Tyler Perry is I 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:29.240 think he's hysterical in that, you know, the notion that 0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:32.320 you know, somehow we shouldn't be building studios or we 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:34.400 should worry that the entire industry is just going to 0:15:34.400 --> 0:15:38.520 evaporate because uh, you know, some you know, teenager can 0:15:38.560 --> 0:15:41.560 suddenly you know, create the next media or whatever franchise 0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:44.680 is going to resonate with people. I think that's an exaggeration. 0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:46.480 I mean, I think that, first of all, that's a 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:48.960 long way off from happening. Even when it does happen, 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:52.760 it'll probably be a very much a second class citizen. 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:56.640 I mean again, you know, it is TikTok competing with 0:15:56.640 --> 0:16:00.640 with Game of Thrones or with Succession. It's not you know, 0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:03.520 maybe it's competing on the mind share front, but but 0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:05.160 clearly you know we're not We're not going to be 0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:08.400 at the point where where any of this technology can 0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:11.400 create the next succession. I think he's being responsible in 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:13.360 the sense we need to be, you know, kind of 0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:17.360 plotting our course well in advance of when we've been 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:19.360 doing that. And you know, it's funny you mentioned the 0:16:19.440 --> 0:16:22.000 you know, we need regulation, we need to get get 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:24.440 you know, kind of our duccen row here. He also 0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:26.440 said something as he was making those comments. He said, 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:28.720 we need to not just like do this one guild 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:30.880 or one union at a time, one strike at a time. 0:16:31.120 --> 0:16:32.800 And I think he's absolutely right about that. 0:16:32.840 --> 0:16:34.880 I mean, I think as much as the writers and 0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:37.640 actors strikes, I think put AI at the forefront. This 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:41.280 sort of patchwork approach from a Hollywood industry perspective that 0:16:41.360 --> 0:16:43.840 we had over the last year, where the directors went 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:45.600 and made their own deals, and the writers made a deal, 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:47.320 and then the actors kind of got what they got, 0:16:47.600 --> 0:16:49.440 and then of course you've got all these other unions 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:50.200 the below the line. 0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:52.520 Folks. That's not really going to work. 0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:55.360 And I would argue that not even from a labor standpoint, 0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:59.520 but from from a studio in management and produce aial standpoint, 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:02.680 there needs to be a lot more alignment, a lot 0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:05.560 more talking and and you know, you talk about regulation, 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:09.719 a lot more negotiation with with. 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:12.320 With Washington, because let's be real about this too. 0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:15.400 You know, the sam Altmans and and Sachinidella's and and 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:18.480 all the tech moguls they are, they are working at 0:17:18.520 --> 0:17:22.040 their hardest to make sure that from a lobbying standpoint, 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:26.120 they have as few regulations as possible. I know there's 0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:28.679 a big lawsuit, a few big lawsuits now, including the 0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:31.800 New York Times suing Open AI for copyright infringement. But 0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:34.240 the reality is, to the degree this is going to 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:38.280 be negotiated in the halls of Congress tech is you know, 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:43.720 halfway through the marathon, and you know you've got Hollywood 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:45.960 executives still debating what sneakers to buy. I mean, so 0:17:46.000 --> 0:17:48.959 this is a this is we are incredibly behind as 0:17:48.960 --> 0:17:52.720 an industry from Hollywood standpoint, relative to where the tech 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:55.480 industry is in terms of figuring this out regulatorially. 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:57.760 So in all of those regards, I think Tyler Perry 0:17:57.800 --> 0:17:58.640 is exactly right. 0:17:59.280 --> 0:18:02.679 But I do think that in terms of the immediate fears, 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:06.480 the immediate displacement, the idea that the quality of work 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:11.879 can somehow start even remotely approaching what even very basic 0:18:11.960 --> 0:18:17.120 professionals do, I think we're a ways off of them. 0:18:17.440 --> 0:18:19.879 We will be back in just a moment with more 0:18:20.080 --> 0:18:31.440 with Steve Zeichick stick around and we are back with 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:37.640 Steve Zeichik, who writes frequently about issues regarding artificial intelligence 0:18:37.720 --> 0:18:40.640 at his sub stack Mind and Iron, which you could 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:44.280 check out at mindan iron dot com. He puts out 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:47.600 really good stuff every Thursday, so do check it out. 0:18:48.480 --> 0:18:51.359 You know, Steve, you were just talking about you know, 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:54.560 you kind of panned back and gave us the big 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:59.600 picture in terms of the battle lines being drawn here, 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:03.520 and it just seems like such an impossible state of 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:08.920 affairs when you think about the regulatory picture, the guild picture, 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:13.000 and what Tyler Perry is calling on for here in 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:17.399 terms of this industry getting its act together and getting 0:19:17.400 --> 0:19:23.240 everyone on the same page. What hope can we really 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:28.879 have for Hollywood to fight this battle in the right way. 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:33.320 Well, if streaming is in any indication, I would say zero. 0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:36.159 You know, it's like the whole thing. 0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:37.720 I mean, you follow out of this stuff, like whatever 0:19:37.720 --> 0:19:39.760 we did with social media on the tech side, let's 0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:42.959 do the opposite now. And I think you can make 0:19:43.000 --> 0:19:46.000 a case that that's true with streaming as well. I mean, 0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:49.200 you know, we obviously saw the legacy companies way behind, 0:19:50.000 --> 0:19:52.840 We saw black box data issues, we saw lack of 0:19:52.920 --> 0:19:55.840 revenue sharing. I mean, creators certainly don't want to repeat 0:19:55.880 --> 0:19:58.480 any of that, And you know, I don't think it's 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:00.679 a stretch to say we're in changer of doing that 0:20:00.760 --> 0:20:03.080 and then some So you know, I don't think the 0:20:03.160 --> 0:20:07.160 historical precedent here is terribly encouraging. And I think, as 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:09.359 you've kind of been alluding to, in some ways, this 0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:10.760 is are In a lot of ways, this is more 0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:14.679 transformative than streaming. You know, production and creation always going 0:20:14.680 --> 0:20:17.000 to be more fundamental to the business than distribution, though 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:19.080 distribution is of course very important. 0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:21.000 So I don't have a ton of hope. 0:20:21.000 --> 0:20:23.639 The only the only sort of in that regard the 0:20:23.680 --> 0:20:26.880 glimmer I would offer listeners here and you could tell 0:20:26.920 --> 0:20:28.840 me if you think I'm being too optimistic, is that 0:20:28.960 --> 0:20:31.399 I think we have learned some lessons. I do think, 0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:34.080 you know, I talked to executives, as I'm sure to you, 0:20:34.119 --> 0:20:36.640 who kind of say, look, you know, we are not 0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:39.120 going to get caught unawares of the way we were. 0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:41.080 You know, there were so many people ten fifteen years 0:20:41.080 --> 0:20:44.000 ago who dismissed a lot of this stuff as just 0:20:44.080 --> 0:20:47.040 either you know, kind of want to be you know, 0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:49.640 Hollywood content or a user generated stuff. You know, we're 0:20:49.640 --> 0:20:52.480 both old enough to remember the whole MySpace days and 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:54.679 the frenzy about that and that that wasn't going to 0:20:54.680 --> 0:20:57.640 really cannibalize the business. And I think that I think 0:20:57.680 --> 0:21:01.120 Hollywood executives now and Labor Gill for that matter, are 0:21:01.200 --> 0:21:05.560 just too savvy. They know that they cannot underestimate this. Now, 0:21:05.920 --> 0:21:08.320