Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kirk, and this is next question.
Speaker 2: Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome former Secretary of State Hillary
Speaker 2: Rodham Clinton and Katie Kirk, Award winning journalist and co
Speaker 2: founder of Katie Kirk Media.
Speaker 3: Hi.
Speaker 1: Everyone. Wow, what a crowd. It is so great, such
Speaker 1: an honor to be kicking off your book tour. Hillary,
Speaker 1: may I call you Hillary? Yes, Katie yes, And so
Speaker 1: great to be in my hometown of Washington, DC. So gosh,
Speaker 1: I have nineteen pages worth of questions. Don't worry, the
Speaker 1: print is very big, Hillary, and I'll put my glasses
Speaker 1: on in fact. So let's get to it right away.
Speaker 1: There's so much news to talk about. Obviously we're going
Speaker 1: to talk about your wonderful book, Something Lost, Something Gained.
Speaker 1: But first I want to address sort of recent news events.
Speaker 1: The assassination attempt on former President Trump yesterday at his
Speaker 1: golf course in West Palm Beach. It is the second
Speaker 1: attempt on his life in two months. When you heard
Speaker 1: the news, what was your reaction.
Speaker 3: Well, it was horror. I mean, this is such a
Speaker 3: terrible thing to happen twice in our country in a
Speaker 3: relatively short period of time, and it's frightening to see
Speaker 3: violence being threatened and used in a political campaign.
Speaker 1: This is what Donald Trump tweeted this afternoon. Quote. The
Speaker 1: rhetoric lies, as exemplified by the far statements made by
Speaker 1: Comrade Kamala Harris during the rigged and highly partisan ABC
Speaker 1: debate and all of the ridiculous lawsuits specifically designed to
Speaker 1: inflict damage on Joe's than Kamala's political opponent, me has
Speaker 1: taken politics in our country to a whole new level
Speaker 1: of hatred, abuse, and distrust because of this communist left rhetoric.
Speaker 1: The bullets are flying and it will only get worse.
Speaker 1: Exclamation point. Allowing millions of people from places unknown to
Speaker 1: invade and take over our country is an unpardonable sin
Speaker 1: end quote. I imagine you have a lot to say
Speaker 1: about that.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, it is so regrettable that the former
Speaker 3: president would take what is a genuinely terrible event of
Speaker 3: someone stalking a former president and current candidate and turn
Speaker 3: it into as he did with that tweet that you
Speaker 3: just read, a political attack on his opposition and literally
Speaker 3: everybody else who does not support him. And it really
Speaker 3: does Katie come down once again to everything everything that
Speaker 3: he talks about is about himself, and he doesn't in
Speaker 3: any way try to reach out to people. He's not
Speaker 3: interested in representing all of America and all of Americans,
Speaker 3: and this is just another really regrettable incident of that.
Speaker 3: And I do worry about political violence. I worry about threats.
Speaker 3: I worry about what's being said online about many many people,
Speaker 3: not just the former president. And he should be doing
Speaker 3: if if you were really a leader, he should be
Speaker 3: doing what he can to calm the waters, not try
Speaker 3: to just continue to throw red meat out there to
Speaker 3: get people riled up. And it is troubling to me,
Speaker 3: which is something that I think everybody should.
Speaker 1: Worry about modeling behavior instead of inciting more violent speech.
Speaker 1: While we're talking about that in a sense deleted response
Speaker 1: to a user who asked, why do they want to
Speaker 1: kill Donald Trump, Elon Musk said, and no one is
Speaker 1: even trying to assassinate Biden or Kamala.
Speaker 3: You know, let's just all just promise ourselves that we
Speaker 3: can have significant political differences about who we want to
Speaker 3: be our next president, about the policies that we think
Speaker 3: will help our country and the world, and condemn that
Speaker 3: kind of rhetoric. It has absolutely no place in American life.
Speaker 1: It's interesting because in the prologue of your books, something Lost,
Speaker 1: Something Gained is out tomorrow. By the way, everyone you
Speaker 1: write quote when you start viewing the other party as traders, criminals,
Speaker 1: or otherwise illegitimate. For example, if you spread the lie
Speaker 1: for years that our first black president wasn't actually born
Speaker 1: in the United States. Where if you lead locker up
Speaker 1: chants at your campaign rallies, politics becomes a blood sport.
Speaker 1: Soon enough, actual blood gets spilled. I'm curious who do
Speaker 1: you think. I mean, you're going to say this is
Speaker 1: kind of a no brainer question, but who do you
Speaker 1: think is responsible for raising the temperature of our political rhetoric?
Speaker 1: Is it solely one side? Because I noticed Hillary when
Speaker 1: I was reading the book, you mentioned both far right
Speaker 1: and far left echo chambers.
Speaker 3: You know, I do think that we've always had strong
Speaker 3: feelings in our politics, going back literally to the very
Speaker 3: beginning of this country. There's nothing new about that. But
Speaker 3: I do think that social media has put it on steroids,
Speaker 3: and what we see now are opinions being expressed, hate
Speaker 3: being conveyed that would have just stayed within a much
Speaker 3: smaller geographic or community setting, which is now literally around
Speaker 3: the world. So I believe that this is not just
Speaker 3: about political leaders, although they do, and I believe this strongly,
Speaker 3: have a responsibility to try to model responsible leadership. But
Speaker 3: it is about all kinds of people who have found
Speaker 3: homes on the Internet to convey a lot of hatred,
Speaker 3: a lot of vitriolic rhetoric, attacking all sorts of people,
Speaker 3: from the right, from the left, impugning people's beliefs, denying reality,
Speaker 3: putting forth conspiracy theories. And so it is difficult in
Speaker 3: the environment in which we find ourselves to really have
Speaker 3: a civil conversation about the differences. And there are real differences.
Speaker 3: There are differences between the parties, There are differences between
Speaker 3: candidates because saying anything just gets totally viral immediately and
Speaker 3: then you know you're off on a tangent. So I
Speaker 3: do think that political leaders, some journalists, activists, you know,
Speaker 3: online personality, all of that has contributed to a really
Speaker 3: volatile political situation.
Speaker 1: Well, as our friend Kara Swisher calls it, engagement through enragement,
Speaker 1: and those are the things that get attention, the most vitriolic,
Speaker 1: most sort of incendiary comments. I want to ask you
Speaker 1: about the current political situation with Joe Biden stepping down
Speaker 1: from running for president. The book was turned in prior
Speaker 1: to that, and also prior to Donald Trump's first assassination
Speaker 1: attempt in Butler, Pennsylvania. I know you recorded an epilogue
Speaker 1: though for your audio book, And let me first ask
Speaker 1: you about President Biden resigning from the campaign. What do
Speaker 1: you think took him so long to make that decision.
Speaker 3: Well, I don't have any inside information, but I think
Speaker 3: number one, he did a really good job as president.
Speaker 3: He got a lot done, and and and I do
Speaker 3: think he modeled responsible leadership. Uh. He tried very hard
Speaker 3: to you know, demonstrate that he wanted to be president
Speaker 3: for all Americans. He wanted to work with Republicans in
Speaker 3: the Congress. A lot of his major legislation, many of
Speaker 3: the benefits like the Infrastructure Bill or the Inflation Reduction Act,
Speaker 3: you know, they're going to go to all Americans, and
Speaker 3: they're going to go to places that don't vote for Democrats,
Speaker 3: did not vote for Joe Biden. And and he really
Speaker 3: did have a strong commitment to try to you know,
Speaker 3: reach out to people and to to build a much
Speaker 3: you know, commer approach toward bringing people together to solve problems.
Speaker 3: So if you've had that kind of record and you've
Speaker 3: done a lot as he did, I think that U
Speaker 3: those of us who were around him, you know both.
Speaker 3: I was around him numerous times. Actually did a you know,
Speaker 3: fundraiser with him with my husband right here in Virginia
Speaker 3: at Terry mccauliff's house, who I think is here tonight
Speaker 3: about like like about a week before that debate. And
Speaker 3: you know, not only did he speak, he was in
Speaker 3: a photo line for an hour, then he went around
Speaker 3: and talked to everybody who was at the fundraiser. So
Speaker 3: when we saw the debate, like every other American, we were,
Speaker 3: you know, surprised, shocked even, And I think again, I'm
Speaker 3: thinking that this is how he felt about it. He said, Okay,
Speaker 3: I had a terrible debate. Don't know what happened to me,
Speaker 3: but I'm gonna go out and I'm going to campaign
Speaker 3: and all the rest of it. But it just couldn't
Speaker 3: be recovered. And I think then people close to him,
Speaker 3: that our trusted advisors, you know, began explaining to him
Speaker 3: that it couldn't be recovered, that he couldn't get back
Speaker 3: to a fifty to fifty close race that you know,
Speaker 3: he would be able to pull out, and he made
Speaker 3: the right decision. And then immediately after he made the
Speaker 3: decision public, he endorsed Kamala, which was also the right decision.
Speaker 1: Let me ask you about that, because I know you
Speaker 1: had a conversation with Kamala Harris that Sunday. What can
Speaker 1: you tell us about that.
Speaker 3: Well, you're right that my book had to get to
Speaker 3: the printer before all of this happened. You must have
Speaker 3: been like, damn, gosh, it was it was pretty it
Speaker 3: was pretty agonizing. But I did. If you're an audible
Speaker 3: kind of person, I did record the book, and I
Speaker 3: put an epilogue at the end of the book, or
Speaker 3: at the end of the recording. It's not in the book,
Speaker 3: but it is in the audio version in which I
Speaker 3: talked about how I felt. I mean, first of all,
Speaker 3: I thought Joe Biden made a patriotic decision and it
Speaker 3: was commendable, and I was, you know, very grateful to him,
Speaker 3: and I thought his endorsement of Kamala was the right thing.
Speaker 3: And I you know that afternoon, Bill and I talked
Speaker 3: to the President, we talked to the Vice president, and
Speaker 3: I say in the epilogue, you know, I wasn't sure
Speaker 3: how I would feel when another woman would be so
Speaker 3: close to breaking that hardest glass ceiling. And I was
Speaker 3: thrilled and so excited. And you know, she has run
Speaker 3: a near perfect campaign. I mean absolutely from the very beginning.
Speaker 3: So I was, you know, able to express that in
Speaker 3: the audio version that I recorded. But I think the
Speaker 3: book itself tries to talk about the stakes that are
Speaker 3: in the election, whether it's Joe Biden at the top
Speaker 3: of the ticket or Kamala Harris, the stakes are so
Speaker 3: high and they remain the same, and so I'm thrilled
Speaker 3: that people have been so energized by Kamala because we've
Speaker 3: got to turn everybody out to vote in November.
Speaker 1: I know, during the course of that phone call, she
Speaker 1: said to you, we're going to need your help, and
Speaker 1: you said.
Speaker 3: Whatever you need, whatever you need, and I you know,
Speaker 3: I've talked to her several times. I thought her convention
Speaker 3: speech was perfect. It was such an incredible introduction of
Speaker 3: herself to the country. I also talked with her about
Speaker 3: the debate, which I thought was terrific, And you know,
Speaker 3: it is very for me. It's very exciting to see
Speaker 3: someone literally just get thrown into the deep end of
Speaker 3: the pool, like, oh, now you're running for president and
Speaker 3: to see her just kick herself up and you know,
Speaker 3: get prepared to do it. And I love her vice
Speaker 3: presidential candidate Tim Walls, who is such a breath of
Speaker 3: fresh air. So I you know, I'm doing events. I'm
Speaker 3: helping in every way that I can, because literally we
Speaker 3: have fifty days left and there's so much at stake
Speaker 3: that I personally am going to do everything that I
Speaker 3: can to make sure this election turns out right.
Speaker 1: If you want to get smarter every morning with a
Speaker 1: breakdown of the new and fascinating takes on health and
Speaker 1: wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter,
Speaker 1: Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. You know,
Speaker 1: at the time when there was so much discussion about
Speaker 1: whether President Biden was going to drop out of the race,
Speaker 1: many Democrats were hoping for an open process where a
Speaker 1: number of candidates could have competed for the spot. But you,
Speaker 1: as you said just a minute ago, you were a
Speaker 1: big supporter of Kamala Harris's from the get go. Why
Speaker 1: did you think that was the best path and what
Speaker 1: downside did you see in having a more open process.
Speaker 3: First of all. I thought she'd earned it. She has
Speaker 3: been the vice president. When people were voting in the primaries,
Speaker 3: they voting for the Biden Harris ticket, not the Biden
Speaker 3: question Mark ticket, and I thought that she was best
Speaker 3: positioned to step on to the national stage. I talked
Speaker 3: to a lot of people during that time, and nobody
Speaker 3: could describe to me what this process was supposed to be.
Speaker 3: I mean, I would have been interested. You know. There
Speaker 3: were all kinds of wacky ideas, well, let's just have
Speaker 3: people go around the country like you know.
Speaker 1: Do town halls.
Speaker 3: Yeah, in town halls, like the Lincoln Douglas debates, I mean,
Speaker 3: and you have what a month? I mean, none of
Speaker 3: it made any sense. And the sensible people whose names
Speaker 3: you know were well known because they were already established
Speaker 3: in politics, and the Congress, governors, et cetera. They were
Speaker 3: all looking at it and going, this doesn't sound like
Speaker 3: a good idea to me. And then finally we were
Speaker 3: We were running against the most dangerous threat to the
Speaker 3: continuation of American democracy and freedom that we can possibly imagine.
Speaker 3: And we don't need any more chaos. We need to
Speaker 3: make a decision and go forward. And if you go
Speaker 3: back and look at the history of you know, contested conventions,
Speaker 3: people running against incumbents, it doesn't turn out all that well.
Speaker 3: So I was I was thrilled that, you know, we
Speaker 3: were able to make a very you know, sensible, smart
Speaker 3: decision and get to the convention, uh, have a great
Speaker 3: convention and come out of it with a lot of
Speaker 3: uh you know, uh steam behind our candidates.
Speaker 1: We'll talk more about politics in a moment, but I
Speaker 1: want to talk about the book, which is quite political
Speaker 1: by the way, political and personal. I know you're a
Speaker 1: huge Joni Mitchell fan. As am I You named Chelsea.
Speaker 1: I remember this from I think I interviewed I think
Speaker 1: it was mentioned you in nineteen ninety three, the first
Speaker 1: interview with the First Lady. It was Hilary America's first Lady,
Speaker 1: and it was so gendered and cheesy. But that was
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety three. But anyway, I know that you
Speaker 1: named Chelsea after Chelsea Morning. And in your prologue you
Speaker 1: talk about being at rapped attention, as Joni Mitchell sang
Speaker 1: both sides now at the Grammys earlier this year, which
Speaker 1: was quite a moment. It seems to me this book
Speaker 1: is you at a very reflective time in your life.
Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit more about where you are
Speaker 1: and how you're looking at life from both sides.
Speaker 3: Now, well, how many you know this may be a
Speaker 3: little generational, but how many of you know the Joni
Speaker 3: Mitchell song or the Judy Collins cover both sides? Now?
Speaker 1: I hope everybody does. I even the young en should
Speaker 1: know this song.
Speaker 3: Well, if you haven't heard it, please please listen to it.
Speaker 3: Do yourselfs a favor.
Speaker 1: You know this is like God, you're making me feel
Speaker 1: so old.
Speaker 3: You haven't heard both sides? Now, go to Spotify. But
Speaker 3: it's like the soundtrack of my life. I mean really,
Speaker 3: and it would you when I first heard that song
Speaker 3: in my I guess early twenties. You know, I've looked
Speaker 3: at life from both sides now, from win or lose,
Speaker 3: and still somehow I don't know what life means basically
Speaker 3: when you're in your twenties, as I write in the book, yeah,
Speaker 3: I mean what does it mean? What does life mean?
Speaker 3: What does life hold for me? And then of course
Speaker 3: love the same thing. And I have used that song
Speaker 3: and the lyrics from it literally through the course of
Speaker 3: my life because at different stages in your life, you know,
Speaker 3: you do have something lost, something gain, which comes from
Speaker 3: the song you do see life on both sides. You
Speaker 3: often see love from both sides. And I just felt
Speaker 3: when I was watching Joni Mitchell sitting in what looked
Speaker 3: like a throne at the Grammys earlier this year.
Speaker 1: Holding what looked like a specter r.
Speaker 3: What looked like a spector with Brandy Carlisle, one of
Speaker 3: my all time new favorites. I was just so touched because,
Speaker 3: you know, she survived a brain aneurysm and a lot
Speaker 3: of other things in her life, and here she was,
Speaker 3: you know, doing what she does so uniquely, which is
Speaker 3: to you know, write songs that capture your feelings not
Speaker 3: just at one time in your life, but as you
Speaker 3: go through life. So, you know, Katie, when I saw that,
Speaker 3: I thought, Okay, you know, I am thinking a lot
Speaker 3: about where I am in my life now, and you
Speaker 3: know I want to you know, reflect on that. So
Speaker 3: it was a real chance for me to take some
Speaker 3: time and look at life, look at love, talk about
Speaker 3: my family, my friends, my you know, political and public activities.
Speaker 3: In a way that was kind of you know, taking
Speaker 3: stock of where I am right now.
Speaker 1: And what was important, you know, and sort of letting
Speaker 1: go of things that mattered so much at one point,
Speaker 1: but you realize now don't matter at all. In fact, absolutely,
Speaker 1: you write in the book, the old words took on
Speaker 1: new meaning. Gone was the twenty something shaking off the
Speaker 1: rose colored glasses of a love affair and the illusions
Speaker 1: of adolescence, and in her place was a matriarch reflecting
Speaker 1: on the hard earned wisdom of a long, eventful life.
Speaker 1: Is part of this coming to terms for you, Hillary,
Speaker 1: the fact, as you write you have more yesterday's than tomorrow's.
Speaker 3: I think it is. I mean, I feel great. I'm
Speaker 3: going to stay as active and involved as I can
Speaker 3: until when I can't. But you do have that sense.
Speaker 3: I mean, I have three grandchildren now, and you know,
Speaker 3: life for me is really about how I can make
Speaker 3: the future safer, more inviting, you know, richer in meaning
Speaker 3: an opportunity for my grandchildren, for children. I dedicate the
Speaker 3: book to my grandchildren and their generation because I want
Speaker 3: them to have the kind of future that they deserve.
Speaker 3: And so I do think a lot about tomorrow. Even
Speaker 3: though my tomorrows are fewer than my yesterday's. I think about, Okay,
Speaker 3: what are we going to do? Every single day? To
Speaker 3: try to make the world more peaceful, to try to
Speaker 3: end conflicts, to try to end the divisions in our country.
Speaker 3: What can we do and what role, you know, can
Speaker 3: I play in trying to get that done?
Speaker 1: The book opens the book. If you all clap after
Speaker 1: every answer, I'm going to run out of time. The
Speaker 1: book opens on the afternoon of May thirtieth time, twenty
Speaker 1: twenty four, when you and all of America got the
Speaker 1: news that former President Donald Trump had been convicted of
Speaker 1: thirty four felonies related to election fraud in twenty sixty
Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen. So can you set the scene for us, Hillary,
Speaker 1: Where were you described that moment at all, the intense
Speaker 1: feelings that stirred up in you.
Speaker 3: Well, it was, as you said, late May, and I
Speaker 3: was finishing edits on the book, and I was actually
Speaker 3: here in Washington at my house here, and I was
Speaker 3: working on the edits, and I needed to really concentrate
Speaker 3: because I had a limited period of time to get
Speaker 3: these edits done. And then I had events that I
Speaker 3: had to go to, and so I took my phone
Speaker 3: and you know, I put it on mute and I
Speaker 3: turned it upside down. So I had no idea what
Speaker 3: was going on in the world. And I was, you know,
Speaker 3: finally finishing the parts that I was trying to edit,
Speaker 3: and you know, I picked it up, see what's going
Speaker 3: on and turned it on and like my phone is
Speaker 3: blowing up. I mean, honest to goodness, people I hadn't
Speaker 3: heard from in years are you know, texting and emailing me,
Speaker 3: and they are all saying the same thing. Can you
Speaker 3: believe what just happened? And of course I quickly read
Speaker 3: that he had been convicted of thirty four felony accounts
Speaker 3: for interfering in the twenty sixteen election, because that's what
Speaker 3: that trial was about. Hush money was a means to
Speaker 3: prevent information from being made public that might have affected
Speaker 3: the vote. So it was election interference. And you know,
Speaker 3: when you've watched his life and when you've tried to
Speaker 3: explain how he's never been held accountable for the bankruptcies
Speaker 3: in business and for so much else that happened before
Speaker 3: he ever went into politics, you know, to see that
Speaker 3: a jury of his peers in the place he grew
Speaker 3: up in New York had found him guilty was you know,
Speaker 3: very reassuring to me about our system. And I did
Speaker 3: get you know, a little bit teary eyed because I thought, Wow,
Speaker 3: no one is above the law, no matter what the
Speaker 3: United States Supreme Court says, no one is above the law.
Speaker 4: And and so for me, I mean, you know, look,
Speaker 4: I mean, I you know, I was accused of a
Speaker 4: million things.
Speaker 3: I'll probably come up with more tomorrow. I mean, it
Speaker 3: just never ends. And you know, went through, you know,
Speaker 3: all the process, and thankfully, guess what, I'd never had
Speaker 3: done anything that amounted to any kind of uh, you know,
Speaker 3: case that could be made because there was nothing there.
Speaker 3: And so for me to see that finally he was
Speaker 3: being held account was very reassuring it. And you know,
Speaker 3: obviously people started sending me memes and you know.
Speaker 1: A lot of Hillary laughing memes, right, a lot of
Speaker 1: very funny memes.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: But you know, I know that you confess to feeling
Speaker 1: a soup song of schadenfreud. Yes, but you also felt
Speaker 1: relief as you just said that he would be held accountable.
Speaker 1: But will he be because as you know, Judge Mrchon
Speaker 1: recently delayed his sentencing to after the election. You mentioned
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court saying granting him immunity. Does it feel
Speaker 1: like he'll never truly be held accountable at times to you.
Speaker 3: Well, I think that's a risk. I do think it
Speaker 3: depends upon the outcome of the election. Part of the
Speaker 3: reason why he is so intense about this election is
Speaker 3: because his free him is at stake. And you know,
Speaker 3: the the case in New York, Uh, the uh losing
Speaker 3: the defamation case, also in New York, his company being
Speaker 3: held criminally liable also in New York.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 3: There's a pattern here that finally people are focused on
Speaker 3: that he's a person who you know, cuts corners all
Speaker 3: the time, believes he's above the law, gets to you know,
Speaker 3: try to point fingers at everybody else. So honestly, Katie,
Speaker 3: it depends upon the election. And it is so shocking
Speaker 3: to me. How you know the judge in Florida has
Speaker 3: literally turned herself into a pretzel trying to find a
Speaker 3: way out for him with his boxes and boxes of
Speaker 3: highly classified material stored in mar.
Speaker 1: A Lago in the back the bathroom, I mean, which
Speaker 1: was really gross.
Speaker 3: You can't make this up. Yeah, I mean really, I
Speaker 3: guess we know what he's reading or not. I don't
Speaker 3: know what you're dealing with it. Yeah, look, I mean,
Speaker 3: we have always prided ourselves on a couple of things,
Speaker 3: the peaceful transfer of power. And as Secretary of State,
Speaker 3: I used to travel around the world basically telling leaders
Speaker 3: and you know, the people and countries, look, one election
Speaker 3: is not enough. It's not one and you're done, and
Speaker 3: then you get to, you know, try to prevent anybody
Speaker 3: else from ever challenging you. It's a peaceful transfer of power.
Speaker 3: You have to have, you know, free and fair elections,
Speaker 3: the rule of law, not the rule of men powerful men,
Speaker 3: but the rule of law. And so you know, he
Speaker 3: he has very much, along with his allies, you know,
Speaker 3: tried to destroy both of those foundational concepts of our country.
Speaker 3: And it is incredibly dangerous. As don't take it from me.
Speaker 3: All of the people who worked for him who are
Speaker 3: now saying, please don't vote for him. I was in
Speaker 3: the situation room with him, I was in the oval
Speaker 3: office with him. I briefed him, you cannot trust him
Speaker 3: and you cannot let him have that kind of power again.
Speaker 3: So the people who serve with him are warning us,
Speaker 3: and he himself has said he wants to be, you know,
Speaker 3: dictator on day one.
Speaker 1: Why isn't the campaign employing those people more?
Speaker 3: Well, they have been used and they've certainly been mentioned,
Speaker 3: and they're all over social media. And just like two
Speaker 3: days ago, a big group of former Reagan officials all
Speaker 3: came out against him. I mean, Republicans of you know,
Speaker 3: principle and prior experience in different Republican administrations are you know,
Speaker 3: literally sounding the alarm. So I think that the more
Speaker 3: we can get that out, the better, and I'm hoping
Speaker 3: the campaign will do more of that. But as Vice
Speaker 3: President Harris travels around the country, she's now being introduced
Speaker 3: in a lot of places by Republicans who basically say,
Speaker 3: you know, I am so and so, and I'm a
Speaker 3: lifelong Republican, but I am voting for you know, Vice
Speaker 3: President Harris. That is giving permission to people who are
Speaker 3: torn about Trump but still feel like, well, you know,
Speaker 3: I'm a Republican. I don't agree with the Democrats on
Speaker 3: issues and all the rest. The only issue is saving
Speaker 3: our democracy. We can argue about everything else later, you know.
Speaker 1: The New York Times recently described Donald Trump as a
Speaker 1: unique and durable political force, and I'm curious to get
Speaker 1: your insights about why why is he so durable?
Speaker 3: Well, first of all, I think it helps to have
Speaker 3: some sense of history and to know that in many
Speaker 3: societies political systems, people who have an ability to connect
Speaker 3: with you know, the fears and the insecurities and the
Speaker 3: anger and the hatreds of people in their society are
Speaker 3: very effective demagogues, you know, people who stand up and
Speaker 3: rail against the other, whoever the other is, whether it's
Speaker 3: you know, immigrants or minority groups, whoever it is. And
Speaker 3: I think what he has done, uh is to open
Speaker 3: the door to that in our country. You know, I
Speaker 3: didn't agree with a lot of the Republican presidents that
Speaker 3: I've followed in my lifetime. I found ways to work
Speaker 3: with some of them. When I was you know, a
Speaker 3: senator from New York on nine to eleven, I found
Speaker 3: a way to work with President George W. Bush about
Speaker 3: you know, rebuilding New York and even though I disagreed
Speaker 3: with him about you know, other things. But what we've
Speaker 3: got with you know, former President Trump is not a
Speaker 3: political difference. It's a it's an almost a psychological character
Speaker 3: difference that goes beyond party. He has subdued the Republican
Speaker 3: Party to basically give in to him and follow him,
Speaker 3: and he does, you know, he does have that quality
Speaker 3: that demagogues throughout history have to connect with people on
Speaker 3: a really visceral level. So when you say why is
Speaker 3: he so durable, I think because he keeps people agitated,
Speaker 3: he keeps people angry, he keeps people upset. He's never
Speaker 3: trying to calm the waters. He's never trying to bring
Speaker 3: people together. One of my favorite examples of this is,
Speaker 3: you know, after the twenty sixteen election, which was you know,
Speaker 3: a terrible you know, blow in every way. So you know,
Speaker 3: I gave my concession speech and basically said, we've we've
Speaker 3: got to get you know, we have one president at
Speaker 3: a time, got to get behind him, et cetera. And
Speaker 3: I really hoped that what I saw in the campaign
Speaker 3: would be replaced by a greater sense of responsibility. So
Speaker 3: fast forward the inauguration. So, you know, I do believe
Speaker 3: in the peaceful transfer of power. And you know, Bill
Speaker 3: and I went to the inauguration and we went as
Speaker 3: you know, former president, former first lady. We were seated
Speaker 3: with former presidents and first ladies. So I was literally
Speaker 3: sitting next to George W.
Speaker 1: Bush and didn't he say something really funny too?
Speaker 3: Well, I was going to tell you, yes, sorry, because
Speaker 3: you know, this was my first recognition that the speech,
Speaker 3: which you know, when when you when you have had
Speaker 3: a close election, when you've lost the popular vote. I mean,
Speaker 3: it would be a good idea to stand up in
Speaker 3: front of the world and say I'm going to be
Speaker 3: the president for everybody, you know. I mean, that's what
Speaker 3: we kind of hope you'll do. Instead, it was like
Speaker 3: carnage in the streets. It was so dark and dystopian
Speaker 3: and mean spirited. And you heard this and I thought, wow,
Speaker 3: what is going on? So the speech ends and or
Speaker 3: w Bush turns to me and goes, that was some
Speaker 3: weird shit. So w right, but apparently there are people
Speaker 3: who like it. I don't know what to say, but
Speaker 3: I mean that kind of goes to your question, why
Speaker 3: is he so durable when he's scaring people and he's
Speaker 3: angering people, and he's making hateful comments. Clearly he is
Speaker 3: tapping into something in many Americans in their own minds
Speaker 3: and hearts, and that's what we have to do a
Speaker 3: better job of understanding.
Speaker 1: You reveal in the book that you were attempted to
Speaker 1: run for president again during the disastrous Trump presidency, at
Speaker 1: one point thinking the third time maybe a charm. So
Speaker 1: why did you ultimately decide against it, you.
Speaker 3: Know, for a number of reasons. I mean one, I
Speaker 3: really did think in twenty twenty that he had to
Speaker 3: be beaten and Joe Biden could do that. And I
Speaker 3: felt that from you know, the beginning of the primary season,
Speaker 3: because of the durability that you recognized, and I didn't,
Speaker 3: you know, I didn't want it to be personal me
Speaker 3: against him. I wanted to be about his record as
Speaker 3: as president, the four years that he presided over. And
Speaker 3: I thought that that would be very difficult if I
Speaker 3: were the candidate. And if you look at that race,
Speaker 3: and this is for all the political junkies, and I
Speaker 3: know there are some of you out there, you will
Speaker 3: remember that the electoral college makes it very difficult to
Speaker 3: win four Democrats. And when I won by nearly three
Speaker 3: million votes in the popular vote, I lost. Can wait
Speaker 3: a minute, no, I know, I know, but yeah, you know,
Speaker 3: I lost by like seventy seven thousand votes, right, So
Speaker 3: just think about that. If you know, forty nine fifty
Speaker 3: thousand votes had gone differently in three states, the outcome
Speaker 3: would have been different. So fast forward twenty twenty to
Speaker 3: go to Katie's question. Trump got a lot more votes.
Speaker 3: I mean, people looked at what he did and failed
Speaker 3: to do during COVID at everything else that happened during
Speaker 3: those four years, and said, hey, we like that. Biden
Speaker 3: got more votes than anybody's ever gotten for president and
Speaker 3: won the popular vote by you know, more than seven
Speaker 3: and a half million. But here's what I want you
Speaker 3: to understand, why I want you to work really, really
Speaker 3: really hard for the next fifty days. He only won
Speaker 3: the electoral College by one hundred thousand votes, So just
Speaker 3: think about that fifty one thousand votes the other way,
Speaker 3: even though he won an overwhelming popular victory. So we
Speaker 3: are living in a divided country and we can't understand
Speaker 3: and the other side can't understand, you know, why we
Speaker 3: feel so strongly about what we want to see in
Speaker 3: our government and in our you know, society, and they
Speaker 3: are feeling exactly the same way about us. And so
Speaker 3: the only thing to do, and it's it's labor intensive,
Speaker 3: which is why you're seeing the vice president and Governor
Speaker 3: Waltz literally criss crossing the same states over and over again.
Speaker 3: I mean, one additional bad thing about the electoral college
Speaker 3: is you don't campaign to the whole country. You campaigned
Speaker 3: to six, seven, eight states, And that's where the ads run,
Speaker 3: that's where the candidates travel, that's where the organizers are deployed.
Speaker 3: So you will see over and over again those same states.
Speaker 3: And that's why we need all of you who care
Speaker 3: about the outcome of this election to do everything you
Speaker 3: can to help us win those states because they will
Speaker 3: be close.
Speaker 1: It seems insane, but it's never going to change, is it.
Speaker 3: The electoral college. You know, I came out against the
Speaker 3: electoral college in two thousand in the Gore Bush race
Speaker 3: because you know, it was our first indication that, you know,
Speaker 3: the Supreme Court wanted to brig our elections basically, which
Speaker 3: they did in the gor v. Bush decision, which is
Speaker 3: a terrible decision. We've had a lot of other terrible
Speaker 3: decisions since then. But I said, look this, if you
Speaker 3: want people to feel invested in their country's democracy, you
Speaker 3: have to make them feel their vote counts. And if
Speaker 3: you're in an all red state or an all blue
Speaker 3: state and nobody campaigns to you during the presidential years,
Speaker 3: you know, it's hard for you to feel that you matter.
Speaker 3: And so I think it's an anachronism. It was one
Speaker 3: of the many comp reises that were made back in
Speaker 3: the you know Constitution and our founders did that. Honestly,
Speaker 3: you know, we should do away with it. I think
Speaker 3: the chances of that ever happening are absolutely zero, but
Speaker 3: we should. We should at least keep making it an issue.
Speaker 1: You know, in your aforementioned epilogue for your audio book,
Speaker 1: you Know, you talk about Vice President Harris being chronically
Speaker 1: underestimated during her time as VP, as so many women
Speaker 1: candidates and politicians are. But you also say maybe it
Speaker 1: was PTSD from decades of battling the sexism and double
Speaker 1: standards that plague women in politics. There's just something about her.
Speaker 1: People say, we get tripped up by the likability test
Speaker 1: or the authenticity trap, or people don't like the sound
Speaker 1: of our laugh, the tone of our voice, the length
Speaker 1: of our hair, you name it. I hear you, sister.
Speaker 1: It's all gotten. It's all gotten worse in the age
Speaker 1: of social media, with anonymous mobs harassing any woman who
Speaker 1: has the temerity to stick her head up. So my question,
Speaker 1: Hillary is how concerned are you that both sexism and
Speaker 1: racism will impact Kamala Harris's chances of winning? I mean,
Speaker 1: I remember there was a Sarah Palin Barbie Doll, but
Speaker 1: a Hillary Clinton nutcracker. Yeah. Remember I was so infuriated.
Speaker 1: It was at the airport.
Speaker 3: I was like, what, Yeah, I know, I mean many
Speaker 3: people sent those to me. They were great stocking stuffers. Look,
Speaker 3: we're just among friends here and.
Speaker 1: A few thousand francs.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Of course there will be people who will not
Speaker 3: feel comfortable or want to vote for the vice president
Speaker 3: because she's black, maybe because she's the daughter of immigrants,
Speaker 3: and because she is a woman. That is just a fact.
Speaker 3: We have to live with that, we have to understand that.
Speaker 3: But that's you know, she is not putting that front
Speaker 3: and center in her campaign. She doesn't need to. She
Speaker 3: is talking about the issues, the kind of president she
Speaker 3: will be, how she has policies. You can go to
Speaker 3: her website and literally see them all rolled out. But
Speaker 3: I think it's fair to say that it is still
Speaker 3: difficult to convince some people. And depending upon where you
Speaker 3: are in the country, the percentage will, you know, be
Speaker 3: greater or lesser that you know, you can be the president,
Speaker 3: you can be the commander in chief. And so she's
Speaker 3: she and her campaign are fully aware of that. They're
Speaker 3: not dwelling on it, and they are inspiring a lot
Speaker 3: of people independence Republican women who care deeply about, you know,
Speaker 3: their reproductive freedom and whether they get to make decisions
Speaker 3: that are right for them and their families. And so
Speaker 3: I laid that out because I want to be honest
Speaker 3: about the challenges. They haven't gone away, but they've somewhat diminished,
Speaker 3: I think, at least I hope. So. So I think
Speaker 3: she is running a terrific campaign. She has to stay
Speaker 3: on her message about you know, who she is, what
Speaker 3: she wants to do, and what a danger Trump poses.
Speaker 3: But let's not you know, let's not overlook the fact
Speaker 3: there will be some who just can't bring themselves to
Speaker 3: vote for a woman. And you know Shirley Chisholm, who
Speaker 3: was the first woman on the Democratic side to make
Speaker 3: a serious run for the presidency. You know, she once
Speaker 3: famously said, you know, I'm black and I'm a woman,
Speaker 3: and it's been much harder being a woman, in part
Speaker 3: because it's kind of the you know, unfinished business of
Speaker 3: human history to ensure that women have equal rights and
Speaker 3: equal respect in whatever arena they find themselves. And so
Speaker 3: I think she she has to be aware of it,
Speaker 3: but not dwell on it. And I think we all
Speaker 3: have to be very vigorous in our advocacy for the
Speaker 3: Harris Waltz campaign, both on the merits, because I think
Speaker 3: they'd be excellent for our country, and I just want
Speaker 3: to breathe again, you know what. I think if we can,
Speaker 3: if we can you know, defeat Trump now in the
Speaker 3: upcoming election, then you know, people can take a deep breath,
Speaker 3: and the Republican Party may be able to find it's
Speaker 3: you know, conscience and its backbone and be able to
Speaker 3: reconstitute itself with people who I would disagree with on issues,
Speaker 3: but honestly would not fear for my country's future. And
Speaker 3: that's what we have to hope for.
Speaker 1: Vice President Harris has been criticized for not being more
Speaker 1: specific in outlining her agenda. In a recent Time Santopol,
Speaker 1: twenty eight percent of likely voters said they felt they
Speaker 1: needed to know more about her, and even after the debate,
Speaker 1: many undecided voters told The New York Times that they
Speaker 1: still wanted more details about her plans and policies. Should
Speaker 1: be she'd be talking about her political agenda with more specificity.
Speaker 1: In your view, well.
Speaker 3: That's assuming Donald Trump has put out a really specific
Speaker 3: But no, I mean that's a low bar, you know,
Speaker 3: I mean actually has with Project twenty twenty five, which
Speaker 3: should scare everybody here. You know, I have mixed feelings
Speaker 3: about this. I was accused of being uh specific, too
Speaker 3: specific a lot of other things, but certainly that, and
Speaker 3: I was also I put out a book about my policies,
Speaker 3: I gave speeches about my policies. At the end of
Speaker 3: the campaign, nobody knew anything about my policies. And I
Speaker 3: just think it's a trap. I mean, first of all,
Speaker 3: for such a short campaign. I mean, if this were
Speaker 3: a year and a half campaign like they usually are,
Speaker 3: you would lay things out, you would you know, talk
Speaker 3: about them, you would have all kinds of events about them.
Speaker 3: I mean, she's got fifty days. So if you go
Speaker 3: to our website, she has a lot of really good
Speaker 3: policies and they are smart and they could be you know,
Speaker 3: transformational about housing, for example, the opportunity to economy, which
Speaker 3: is what she's talking about. But when I hear people
Speaker 3: say that, it kind of makes me think, well, compared to.
Speaker 1: What or is something else?
Speaker 2: Is the.
Speaker 3: Text there? And that's right, Katie, I mean is it
Speaker 3: like I just need to know more? Well, I think
Speaker 3: part of it is what they're really saying I just
Speaker 3: have to be more comfortable voting for a woman and
Speaker 3: voting for this woman. So she's done, I think, an
Speaker 3: absolutely credible job in putting policies out, and she talks
Speaker 3: about some of them, but it's more about how she
Speaker 3: makes people feel. And you know that Maya Angelou quote
Speaker 3: like you know when somebody shows you who they are,
Speaker 3: believe them the first time. Well, she's showing that. She's
Speaker 3: a positive, energetic, optimistic person who wants to lift people up,
Speaker 3: not tear them down. And we need that so much
Speaker 3: in our country right now to have that kind of leadership.
Speaker 1: I want to get back to you and your speech
Speaker 1: at the DNC. I was with a group female friends
Speaker 1: last week celebrating one of their birthdays, and they were
Speaker 1: marveling at how generous you were in your speech at
Speaker 1: the DNC, and one said, I thought this was such
Speaker 1: a lovely thing to say. It's as if Hillary took
Speaker 1: our broken hearts and allowed them to be released. Ah.
Speaker 1: Was it hard for you, Hillary, at any level to
Speaker 1: not have the pang of damn? It should have been me?
Speaker 3: Well, I will tell you I was first asked to
Speaker 3: speak at the convention when Joe Biden was a candidate,
Speaker 3: and you know, obviously wanted to do my very best
Speaker 3: to support him if that was to be so. Then
Speaker 3: when everything changed and they asked me to speak at
Speaker 3: the convention, you know, they asked me to speak on
Speaker 3: the very first day, and I really felt like I
Speaker 3: had to be a bridge from where I was eight
Speaker 3: years ago. What I was trying to do what I
Speaker 3: hoped could be done to the vice president. And it
Speaker 3: was a very very hard speech to write, and it
Speaker 3: was a hard speech to deliver. You know, I practiced
Speaker 3: it and would get, you know, pretty teary eyed about
Speaker 3: it because it was hard. But it was something that
Speaker 3: I felt really good and comfortable doing because I kind
Speaker 3: of knew what my assignment was and I knew that
Speaker 3: for a lot of people there was this twenty sixteen overhang.
Speaker 3: I mean people today, I mean it's eight years people
Speaker 3: today come up and they see me and they burst
Speaker 3: into tears and they throw their arms around me and
Speaker 3: they're sobbing on my shoulder because of twenty six That
Speaker 3: must be a little weird. Well no, I mean it's
Speaker 3: very touching, but you know it, people know that it
Speaker 3: was an unprecedented election, and you know, those people who were,
Speaker 3: you know, supporting me. You know, it has been a
Speaker 3: very long time, so I knew I had to both
Speaker 3: you know, give you know, give everybody permission to be
Speaker 3: one hundred percent behind Kamala, and so in delivering it,
Speaker 3: you know, going out there in the arena in Chicago,
Speaker 3: first of all, you know, I can't see too many
Speaker 3: faces beyond like the first couple of rows here because
Speaker 3: of the way that the theater here is lit. But
Speaker 3: at the convention, the way it was lit is I
Speaker 3: could see people, twenty twenty five, thirty forty rows. I
Speaker 3: could recognize people, And it was such an intimate moment
Speaker 3: even though there were you know, many thousands of people there,
Speaker 3: and I felt like it truly was the passing of
Speaker 3: the torch. It was like, this can be done, we
Speaker 3: are going to do it. And in the speech, remember
Speaker 3: the main point I wanted to make it's not just
Speaker 3: about finally breaking through that glass ceiling. It's on what's
Speaker 3: on the other side of the glass ceiling. What are
Speaker 3: the opportunities, what kind of future can we dream about
Speaker 3: together to really empower all of our people, especially our
Speaker 3: girls and young women. So it was a very emotional
Speaker 3: moment for me. And you know it was one of
Speaker 3: the most rewarding, you know, public experiences I've ever had.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me,
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