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Speaker 1: On the Doll Cast, the questions asked if movies have

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Speaker 1: women and um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and

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Speaker 1: husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef in

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Speaker 1: best start changing it with the beck Del Cast. Okay,

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Speaker 1: it takes a little narration. So imagine I have a

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Speaker 1: camp quarter and I just turned it on and I'm

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Speaker 1: sitting in front of it, and I say, um, so

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking about doing a podcast, and then it cuts

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Speaker 1: to you and me and we're in the podcast studio.

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Speaker 1: That makes sense, Yeah, it does. This is not my

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Speaker 1: best intro that I've ever had. I was just referencing

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Speaker 1: the format of the movie, which if you haven't seen

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Speaker 1: The Watermelon Woman, I guess that would make no sense

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Speaker 1: to you. Did you have an idea for an intro?

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Speaker 1: This can all be this is an open forum. I

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Speaker 1: was gonna do love you. You're beautiful. I know that

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Speaker 1: seems so. I That was one of my favorite scenes,

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Speaker 1: just because it you keep thinking it's going to end.

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Speaker 1: If that it he did not ending, and she oh God.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bechtel Cast. My name is Jamie Loftus,

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Speaker 1: my name is Caitlin Durante, and this is our podcast

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Speaker 1: in which we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens,

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Speaker 1: using the Bechdel test simply as a jumping off point.

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Speaker 1: It's a way to just inspire us to have a

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Speaker 1: larger conversation about representation in film. Jamie Fillum, what is

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Speaker 1: the Bechtel Test? Well, i'll tell you. The Bechdel Test

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Speaker 1: is a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alice and Bechtel,

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Speaker 1: sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace test. That there's many different

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Speaker 1: versions of it. For this show, we require that there

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Speaker 1: be two characters of a marginalized gender with names talking

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Speaker 1: about something other than a man for two lines of dialogue,

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Speaker 1: and hopefully it's a meaningful exchange, not just a like,

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Speaker 1: hey here, you dropped your toothbrush. Okay, like one of

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Speaker 1: those one of those classic interactions. Yeah, I mean the

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Speaker 1: the old dropping the toothbrush trope. It's a meat cute.

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Speaker 1: It's the meat cute you drop your toothbrush and then

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Speaker 1: see if anyone hot picks it up. Oh, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to have to try that. Also, just a reminder that

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Speaker 1: the original context of the Bechtel test was that Alison

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Speaker 1: Bechdel's characters in comic dikes to watch out for. The

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Speaker 1: context was those characters are examining movies to see if

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Speaker 1: women talk to each other about something other than a man,

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Speaker 1: because if they don't, then Alison Bechdel's characters can pretend

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Speaker 1: like the women in the movie are queer women who

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Speaker 1: they can like ship together, because of course, there was

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Speaker 1: virtually no representation of queer women or queer romance of

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Speaker 1: any kind in movies back then. So just a reminder

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Speaker 1: that that's the context of the Bechtel test. The eighties

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Speaker 1: was a bleak time, which sure was. Uh, we're so

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Speaker 1: excited to be covering the movie that we are covering today.

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Speaker 1: We're covering the Watermelon Women today. It has been a

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Speaker 1: listener request for some time now, and the time is now.

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Speaker 1: The moment has arrived, and we have an incredible guest

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Speaker 1: here to discuss this movie with us. We sure do.

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Speaker 1: They are a writer and freelance video editor. It's Crystal

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Speaker 1: luk Oi. Hello, welcome, nice to be here, thanks for

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Speaker 1: joining us, Thanks for inviting me. Of course, So we

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Speaker 1: found a piece that you wrote for the anniversary of

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Speaker 1: Watermelon Woman for the British Film Institute. Will of course

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Speaker 1: link to it in the show notes, but the pieces

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Speaker 1: entitled the Watermelon Woman at the Black Lesbian Classic that

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Speaker 1: wears its brilliance lightly. So we were like, oh, let's

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Speaker 1: get Crystal on the show and here you are, so

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Speaker 1: we're so excited to talk to you. You covered a

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Speaker 1: little bit in your piece, but could you tell us

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Speaker 1: about your your history with this movie and yeah, your

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Speaker 1: connection to it, Yeah, of course. So it's kind of

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Speaker 1: one of my favorite movies. Um. That made it also

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Speaker 1: more difficult to write about it that I encountered it

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Speaker 1: at a time where I wasn't necessarily I wasn't necessarily

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Speaker 1: asking a lot of questions about my sexuality, like my

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Speaker 1: my very queer wasn't like really question I had. I

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Speaker 1: was just I don't know, and I would figure that,

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Speaker 1: but it wasn't like something I was thinking way deeply,

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Speaker 1: And so I just liked it esthetically at first, and

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Speaker 1: I just enjoyed it. And then I rewatched it way

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Speaker 1: later with a group of friends, a group of queer friends,

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Speaker 1: at a time where I had much more clarity about

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Speaker 1: being queer, and it was like a group of black

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Speaker 1: French queer people in Paris, where I'm from, and it

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Speaker 1: was just such a different experience watching it like collectively

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Speaker 1: in that way, and I just have so many fund

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Speaker 1: memories attached to it because of that, like how affirmative

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Speaker 1: it was in coming to terms with my sexuality. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's beautiful. That's so nice. Movies are magical, you know,

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Speaker 1: there are I miss watching movies with friends that so

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Speaker 1: that sounds so lovely and it's like it's so special

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Speaker 1: for like the movies that can like help us understand

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Speaker 1: things about the world, help us understand things about ourselves.

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Speaker 1: It's beautiful and just be really funny, dude, this movie

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Speaker 1: is so so funny, and it's also just there's something

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Speaker 1: in watching something collectively, like so many things just went

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Speaker 1: way above my head the first time I saw it

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Speaker 1: by myself, and then you watch it with friends and

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Speaker 1: like you understand all of those references. Um yeah, m hm, cool, Jamie.

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Speaker 1: What's your history with the movie? I had not seen

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Speaker 1: this movie before. I It's been recommended to me for

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Speaker 1: some time, and it is available on Showtime right now

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Speaker 1: in the US, so I was like, oh, this is

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Speaker 1: this is great. Um. So I watched it a few

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Speaker 1: times to prepare for this episode, and I was really

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Speaker 1: blown away by it. It's such a It's just it's

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Speaker 1: so good in so many ways. I didn't have a

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Speaker 1: lot of context for what it was about, what the

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Speaker 1: format was, all the different sort of connecting pieces of

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Speaker 1: this movie are also fascinating and incredible, and it's like

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Speaker 1: it's so nineties in a really fun way as well, like,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, it's I love the like experimentation with

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Speaker 1: like form and the history that is I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I feel like and because still you mentioned this in

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Speaker 1: your piece as well, like there are so many movies

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Speaker 1: that talk about really important stuff that are coming out

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Speaker 1: right now that feel really heavy in the way that

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Speaker 1: the information is presented. And the Watermelon Woman just does

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Speaker 1: everything so effortlessly. It was just such a such a pleasure.

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Speaker 1: It's it's and and watching it back the second time,

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Speaker 1: I caught a bunch of stuff I didn't the first.

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Speaker 1: It's just so it's so good. If you haven't seen

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Speaker 1: the movie yet, um pause this episode and go watch it.

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Speaker 1: It's so wonderful. Yeah. So I'm I'm I'm a recent convert.

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Speaker 1: Uh what about you, Caitlin. I don't have a long

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Speaker 1: history with it, but I did see it for the

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Speaker 1: first time last I think last summer. Um it was

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Speaker 1: appearing on a lot of lists of like, hey, here's

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Speaker 1: black cinema that you probably haven't seen, and here's some

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Speaker 1: movies that you should check out. So Watermelon Woman kept

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Speaker 1: appearing on lists like that. So I watched it and

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Speaker 1: I thought it was really fun and I really just

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Speaker 1: enjoyed the tone and the humor and the characters and yeah,

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Speaker 1: so not a long history, but it is pretty cool.

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Speaker 1: It's so cool. Yeah, should we should we just get

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Speaker 1: into it. Let's get into it with the recap. So

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Speaker 1: it's sort of like a half narrative, half mockumentary style

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Speaker 1: where we open on Cheryl, who is played by writer

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Speaker 1: director Cheryl Dounier. She and her friend Tamara are videographers

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Speaker 1: who shoot like weddings and things like that. They also

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Speaker 1: worked together at a video rental store. Remember those it's

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Speaker 1: so nineties. It's oh do you remember, Like they had

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Speaker 1: like the empty cases and then you had to take

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Speaker 1: the case to the counter and they'd be like the

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Speaker 1: keeper of the VHS is, Yeah, those were the days. Um.

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Speaker 1: So Cheryl is also an aspiring filmmaker and she has

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Speaker 1: been watching a lot of movies from the thirties and

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Speaker 1: forties with black actresses whose real names are often not

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Speaker 1: listed in the credits of these movies. And there's one

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Speaker 1: movie in particular called Plantation Memories where this beautiful black

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Speaker 1: woman is in the like Mammy role and she's only

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Speaker 1: listed in the credits as the watermelon woman. So Cheryl

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Speaker 1: is very cure used about her and wants to make

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Speaker 1: a film about her, like figuring out who she is,

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Speaker 1: what her real name is, what her life was like,

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Speaker 1: everything about her. Then Tomorrow invites Cheryl out with her

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Speaker 1: new girlfriend and a blind date for Cheryl named Yvette,

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Speaker 1: and this is when we get that amazing karaoke scene.

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Speaker 1: This scene is a lot like we have to get

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Speaker 1: into it. We really do. It's iconic. It's so good.

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Speaker 1: I like it. It was such a I like getting

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Speaker 1: used to how Cheryl Danner um paces these scenes is

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Speaker 1: so fun because I was in my I guess I

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Speaker 1: was just in my Hollywood movie brain where I was like, Oh,

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Speaker 1: it's gonna be bad and then it's going to stop.

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Speaker 1: But they let her sing the entire song. It's so funny. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that character is so funny because she's like, I'm a

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Speaker 1: singer and I almost got a role in a Spike

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Speaker 1: Lee movie, and that goes to show how amazing of

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Speaker 1: a performer I am. And then she gets up there

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Speaker 1: and she's just like love, it's incredible. Shout out to

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Speaker 1: the the actor who who, like I was able to

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Speaker 1: keep a straight face through that entire scene because it

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Speaker 1: was a beautiful, terrible karaoke performance. Yes. Um. So, then

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Speaker 1: Cheryl starts making her film and investigating who the Watermelon

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Speaker 1: Woman is. She asks different people on the street if

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Speaker 1: they know anything about the Watermelon Woman, and then she

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Speaker 1: interviews her mom, who at first is like, I don't

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Speaker 1: know who that is, but then she recognizes her as

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Speaker 1: someone who used to perform at clubs. Shout out to

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Speaker 1: Cheryl Danie's real mom, real mom, Irene. Yeah. So. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: Cheryl meets a cute lady at the video store, Diana.

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Speaker 1: She's played by Guenevere Turner, and they flirt a little bit,

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Speaker 1: a little bit, and it's video store flirting too, It's

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Speaker 1: such a specific brand of flirting that no longer exists. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: She's like, here, watch this Roman Polanski movie and you

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Speaker 1: were like yeah. Um. Then Cheryl interviews a man who

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Speaker 1: tomorrow knows who's like basically like a black film buff.

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Speaker 1: He's very knowledgeable about early black film, but he is

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Speaker 1: not familiar with the Watermelon Woman. He says something like,

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Speaker 1: women are not my specialty. Tomorrow is like, yeah, we know. Um.

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Speaker 1: Another very funny interaction. And then Cheryl and Tomorrow go

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Speaker 1: to the library to do some research on both the

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Speaker 1: Watermelon Woman and Martha Page, who is the white woman

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Speaker 1: who rerected the Plantation Memories movie, but there's very little

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Speaker 1: info about anything they're looking for. And then Cheryl finds

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Speaker 1: a woman named Shirley Hamilton's who knows the Watermelon Woman

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Speaker 1: as Faye richards and that turns out to be her

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Speaker 1: stage name because her real name was Faith Richardson. She

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Speaker 1: was a singer. She used to perform at nightclubs in Philadelphia,

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Speaker 1: and Faye and Martha Page used to hang around together

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Speaker 1: a lot, and it's clear that they were together romantically. UM.

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Speaker 1: So Cheryl is not very excited because she's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: like me, she was a black lesbian. And then Cheryl

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Speaker 1: gets her hands on more movies starring Faye richards and

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Speaker 1: she watches them with Diana. They kiss, they have sex.

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Speaker 1: Diana starts helping Cheryl on the Watermelon Woman project, and

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Speaker 1: while this is happening. There is strain on Cheryl's relationship

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Speaker 1: with Tamara because she doesn't like the Cheryl is dating Diana,

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Speaker 1: because Diana inserts herself so quickly into the project. It's like,

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Speaker 1: and we've a really strange ownership relationship to that whole project. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm excited to get into that discussion because it is like,

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Speaker 1: even as a viewer, there's kind of whiplash where there.

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Speaker 1: I think it's like at that dinner scene with Tomorrow

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Speaker 1: and Stacy and Cheryl and Diana, and Diana is like, oh,

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Speaker 1: our project, and yes, Tomorrow is like, what are you

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Speaker 1: talking about? Like, Cheryl has been working on this for

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Speaker 1: months and months. You you just got here, like relax. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And then Cheryl and her co worker Annie go to

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Speaker 1: New York City Ever Heard of It? To the Center

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Speaker 1: for Lesbian Information and Technology a k A. Clit Hilarious, incredible,

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Speaker 1: and they find a bunch of photos of Faye Richards,

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Speaker 1: one of which has a handwritten note on the back

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Speaker 1: to someone named June Walker. So now Cheryl has another lead.

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Speaker 1: They also interview Martha Page's sister, who is still living,

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Speaker 1: but she is racist and homophobic and refuses to believe

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Speaker 1: that her sister was a lesbian and was lovers with

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Speaker 1: Faye Richards But then Cheryl gets in touch with June

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Speaker 1: Walker and discovers that she was in a long term

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Speaker 1: relationship with Faye. So Cheryl and June arranged to have lunch,

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Speaker 1: but when Cheryl gets there, she learned that June was

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Speaker 1: just taken to the hospital, but she did leave a

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Speaker 1: letter for Cheryl which talks about phase life and how

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Speaker 1: it was so much more than her relationship with Martha

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Speaker 1: Page and how Martha has nothing to do with how

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Speaker 1: people should remember Faye. And then the movie ends with

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Speaker 1: Cheryl reflecting on her experience, her relationships, her friendships, and

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Speaker 1: what the Watermelon Woman a k a. Faith Richard's a ka.

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Speaker 1: Faith Richardson means to her and how she feels hopeful

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Speaker 1: and inspired. And then there's a title card at the

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Speaker 1: very end with text that says, sometimes you have to

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Speaker 1: create your own history. The Watermelon Woman is fiction, which

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Speaker 1: the first time I saw this movie, the whole time

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh, Faye Richards, like she must be

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Speaker 1: a real person like the Watermelon Woman, this this is

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Speaker 1: all real, And then it turns out nope, this was

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Speaker 1: completely fiction. Shymelon twist at the end. Um So that's

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Speaker 1: the story. Let's take a quick break and then we'll

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Speaker 1: come right back to discuss and we're back. Where do

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Speaker 1: we want to start here? There's there's so much to

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Speaker 1: talk about. A Yeah, Crystal, does does anything jump out

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Speaker 1: to you right away? I think yes, that question of

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Speaker 1: the video store and that specific aestetic because I think

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Speaker 1: that is that that side the video store where she

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Speaker 1: needs and where she where she works also with Tamara.

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Speaker 1: But there's also the video is static that comes in

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Speaker 1: and out at some point in the movie. That's really

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Speaker 1: interesting how she like records herself the camcorder. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: don't know what you're making of this. I mean I

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Speaker 1: just thought it was a really cool way to introduce this. Again,

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Speaker 1: she's like making what we think is almost like when

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Speaker 1: you watch the movie, you're like, oh, this is kind

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Speaker 1: of like a documentary, Like this is like part narrative

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Speaker 1: part documentary. And unless you already know that the Watermelon

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Speaker 1: woman is not a real person. Again, I just assumed.

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Speaker 1: I was like, this, this is like a real person

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Speaker 1: that Cheryl, because she's also like playing herself more or less,

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Speaker 1: and it were like really kind of it just like

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Speaker 1: gets you to think that this is like something that

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Speaker 1: she's really searching and investigating, and like that kind of

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Speaker 1: grainy video footage helps to set up that expectation, and

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Speaker 1: then you find out, oh, no, this is just Cheryl

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Speaker 1: Dunier taking like obviously the historical context is there, because

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Speaker 1: a little context corner here is that like the journey

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Speaker 1: that Cheryl the character goes on in the movie of

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Speaker 1: like watching old films from the thirties and forties and

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Speaker 1: seeing actors who are black women in these mammy roles

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Speaker 1: but noticing that they're not often credited by name. That's

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Speaker 1: basically how the development of this movie started, where writer

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Speaker 1: director Cheryl Donier was like doing research for a class

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Speaker 1: on black film history, realized that a lot of black

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Speaker 1: actors were not credited in these early movies, and decided

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Speaker 1: that she wanted to tell a story about black women

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Speaker 1: in the early days of Hollywood. Thus was born the

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Speaker 1: concept for the film The Watermelon Woman. So you know,

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Speaker 1: she took kind of like an amalgamation of a bunch

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Speaker 1: of actors from that time and sort of invented the

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Speaker 1: Watermelon Woman. And just like the way it was shot

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Speaker 1: gets you to be like oh this this is real.

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Speaker 1: Oh wait, no it's not. Yeah, I really like, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I'm like she's she's like playing this like game of

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Speaker 1: like four D chess that you don't even understand until

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Speaker 1: the movie is almost over, because it's you know, she's

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Speaker 1: setting it up by wanting to educate her audience about

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Speaker 1: black film history, which she is doing, and then she

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Speaker 1: also says that the beginning of the movie, like I

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Speaker 1: want to put black women at the front of my work,

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Speaker 1: which she is also doing by like chronicling her own

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Speaker 1: fake process in introducing all like all these really different

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Speaker 1: characters with all these different views on the same topic,

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Speaker 1: and it just, I don't know, watching this movie a

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Speaker 1: second time was even more fun, like sort of knowing

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Speaker 1: what she's doing going in and just seeing how like

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Speaker 1: elegantly it's done, and like she's just doing so so

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Speaker 1: much at once with with it seems like like a

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Speaker 1: kind of classic nineties low budget vibe that is just

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Speaker 1: like so fun. For sure. Yes, there's like a real

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Speaker 1: sense of like freedom in the way she's just like,

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Speaker 1: let me just pick up a camera and documents. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the way in which I'm searching for that lost ancestor,

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Speaker 1: which I don't know. It feels really like particular to

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Speaker 1: that time in the nineties and like I don't see,

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Speaker 1: like I those something so native about it, and even

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Speaker 1: the way it starts, like so like the first few

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Speaker 1: minutes of the feeling the first time I watched it,

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Speaker 1: I was like, what's happening? I don't understand why were

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Speaker 1: we are at the wedding? Like what what is she

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Speaker 1: trying to set up? But yeah, it's like it just

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Speaker 1: feels really free in a way that I feel like

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Speaker 1: it feels very like a product of its time and

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Speaker 1: this democratizing of camera and video work. Um, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: just love it. Yeah. And I know you wrote about

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Speaker 1: this in your piece about like new Queer cinema and

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Speaker 1: how it like the restraints of like hetero noormative Hollywood cinema,

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Speaker 1: Like New Queer cinema basically just like breaks those restraints off,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of films from that time we're like,

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Speaker 1: we're just gonna do whatever we want. We're going to

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Speaker 1: tell the stories the way we want. Like a lot

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Speaker 1: of rigid conventions of like cinematic story re telling, we're

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Speaker 1: not going to abide by those, And how this is

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Speaker 1: just a pivotal movie in that movement of new queer cinema. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it's very it's very gender too, because like a

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Speaker 1: not especialist of your queer cinema, but like my understanding

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Speaker 1: of the kinds of dynamics that we're operating at the

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Speaker 1: time is um the directors, like the Sis men directors

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Speaker 1: were had a tendency to like use more film, which

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Speaker 1: is much more expensive to film with, and the women

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Speaker 1: directors usually were using like video and other genres. So

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Speaker 1: there's also that aspect of like, yeah, what you said,

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Speaker 1: like the low budget, which I feel like, if your

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Speaker 1: time to do something that's cinematic in a way and

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Speaker 1: that looks that correspond to like a certain normative idea

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Speaker 1: of like what's beautiful, I feel I feel it like

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Speaker 1: much strongly now, which is why I like there's something

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Speaker 1: really free about how she like just doesn't care about

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Speaker 1: what people deem beautiful or what people deem cinematic, and

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Speaker 1: just like you have dislike student film esthetic that's completely assumed,

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Speaker 1: like she's not trying to cover it. Yeah, She's like,

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Speaker 1: I want real people to be in my movie, and

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Speaker 1: I want something that feels like a real story. Like

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Speaker 1: everything just feels incredibly authentic in the way that few

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Speaker 1: Hollywood movies can deliver that sense. Yeah, and I liked that.

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Speaker 1: I mean something another thing about the format that I

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Speaker 1: didn't see coming, but when it happens, you're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: that that is so cool, and and never happens in

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Speaker 1: popular movies is like they are just little vignettes where

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Speaker 1: it's just like Cheryl and Tomorrow just like hanging out

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Speaker 1: for a minute and they're just like on a building

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Speaker 1: they answering, and you're like, what's going on? And then

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Speaker 1: after ten seconds you're like, no, I think I like

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Speaker 1: this and it's just them having fun. Like I don't

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Speaker 1: even know if that was like scripted or anything, but like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: there seems to be like a lot of also, like

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Speaker 1: distance from any kind of like rules or like plan

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Speaker 1: of what's going to happen. Yeah, I'll be honest, Like

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Speaker 1: the first time I saw the movie, because I come

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Speaker 1: from like a screenwriting background, so I was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: there's like a lot of screenwriting rules that are broken here,

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Speaker 1: because like the inciting incident happens off screen where she

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Speaker 1: discovers the watermelon woman when she's watching that movie, Like

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Speaker 1: that happens off screen. She just talks about it after

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Speaker 1: the fact. There are a few scenes where it seems

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Speaker 1: like tension is about to like ramp up, and then

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Speaker 1: it just cuts away into the scene like that's that

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Speaker 1: scene where Diana enters with that argument that that Cherylyn

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Speaker 1: Tomorrow are having about her at Diete is just like hi,

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Speaker 1: and then the scenes of he like did you hear

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Speaker 1: did you not hear? Right? Yeah? So I was like

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Speaker 1: I found it a little jarring the first time I

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Speaker 1: watched it because I was like, oh, all these like

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Speaker 1: all these conventions are being ignored and all these like

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Speaker 1: rules are being broken. But then you just you're like,

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Speaker 1: but it's fine, Like we still understand what's happening. You're

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Speaker 1: still emotionally engaged with the story. You're still rooting for

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Speaker 1: Cheryl to like find out as much information about the

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Speaker 1: Watermelon Woman as possible, and it all works. I feel

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Speaker 1: like those things have like you not seeing every single

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Speaker 1: plat point fall down on the screen. It's like part

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Speaker 1: of why I completely fell for it being part documentary

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Speaker 1: the first time, because it's like not every document like

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Speaker 1: most documentaries don't catch every critical moment, and so when

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Speaker 1: she's like describing something that happened a little earlier that day.

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Speaker 1: I the first time I watched, I was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this feels completely like a documentary because you you wouldn't

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Speaker 1: get every single second of everything. So I feel like

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Speaker 1: it also like lends itself to to the format that

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Speaker 1: she's messing around with too. And we I mean we

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Speaker 1: there was such a low budget to this, where I

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Speaker 1: think the budget was three thousand dollars, which was a

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00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 1: combination of grant money, fundraisers, and donations from her friends

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Speaker 1: from like Cheryl Dunier's friends. So she's working with very

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Speaker 1: little money. So it makes sense that she would, like

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Speaker 1: you were saying Crystal about she's shot on a lot

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Speaker 1: of video because film is too expensive. It just was

401
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Speaker 1: like very clever to me that she with the resources

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Speaker 1: she had, she was like, oh, like what can I

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Speaker 1: do with this? And like what will lend the best sense?

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00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:57,159
Speaker 1: So like just shooting on video as if she's making

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Speaker 1: like a very low budget documentary, it just like it

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00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,439
Speaker 1: works because I feel like, so often you see a

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Speaker 1: movie where you get footage of like a home video

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00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,639
Speaker 1: and this like huge budget, like major Hollywood production, and

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00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, this home video was clearly shot by

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Speaker 1: a professional cinematographer because it just looks too good and

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00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:23,120
Speaker 1: then it's like run through an editing program to be like, no,

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00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 1: this is a camp corridor and it's like, I didn't

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00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 1: you just do that in the first place. But I

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00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,040
Speaker 1: think that's that's one of the very beautiful aspects to

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Speaker 1: the Waterman and Woman. That's like, I find the new

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00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 1: in that work, and even in her earlier shots, like

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00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 1: so resourceful in like doing things with what you have,

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Speaker 1: even if you don't have access to like big budgets.

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Speaker 1: And it's like even the fact that like fab Richardson

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Speaker 1: is like a fictional character, and like how much of

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Speaker 1: that is due to like not having access to like

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00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,080
Speaker 1: actual archives but also not being able to pay for

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00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,719
Speaker 1: those archives even if they exist. So yeah, I just

424
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 1: like there's so much creativity in what she's doing. That's like, yeah,

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00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,199
Speaker 1: it's just feels like a brick collage of salts, but

426
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:17,359
Speaker 1: that works really well. Yeah, totally. Absolutely. Another thing that

427
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 1: I really like that we sort of started talking about was, um,

428
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 1: how she is able to get a lot of history

429
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 1: across but do it in this kind of effortless way

430
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,920
Speaker 1: where I feel like a lesser filmmaker could have made

431
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 1: it like and here's the historical portion of of the movie.

432
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 1: But she like creates this really like kind of bizarre

433
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 1: character who's got a house full of memorabilia and like

434
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 1: they're like messing around with him, and he's giving like

435
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 1: a lot of interesting, solid information, but it doesn't I

436
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 1: don't know, like there there When movies I feel like

437
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 1: try to weave in history, sometimes it becomes like lecture mode,

438
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 1: and she is able to avoid it completely while still

439
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 1: educating her audience on on like a lot of stuff,

440
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 1: like I don't know, I learned stuff from that scene

441
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 1: with with the film Buff. But also at the end

442
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 1: it ends in this really funny way. I don't think

443
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 1: I've really seen someone pull it off that effortlessly before.

444
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 1: And that scene plays into a pretty common like motif

445
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 1: or theme throughout this movie because that film Buff guy,

446
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 1: he's like, women are not my specialty. I don't know

447
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 1: anything about women and women in film. I don't know

448
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 1: who the watermelon woman is, which again part of this

449
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 1: sort of bigger theme of their being very limited access

450
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 1: to information and Crystal you talk about this in your

451
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 1: piece where they are all these like gatekeepers who Cheryl

452
00:29:55,720 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 1: comes up against that are either kind of like withholding information,

453
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 1: or there's just a general limited access to information because

454
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 1: things were not properly documented or properly archived. Because you've

455
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 1: got that librarian man who just keeps being like, well

456
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 1: did you check the reference section? Did you do? You

457
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 1: even know how to use a library, And they're like, yeah,

458
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 1: we know how to use a library, but you don't

459
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 1: have any information in your library. And then there's like

460
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 1: the lady at Clint who won't let them get footage

461
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 1: of these photos of Fay because she's like it's confidential

462
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 1: and not just that, but like she has like any

463
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 1: any box full of information that is about black film stars,

464
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: she just like dumps out on the table in this

465
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 1: really cal's way where you're like, oh my gosh, she

466
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: really even has to rescue one of those bookses at

467
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 1: some point like yeah, catching it defied force. Yeah, he

468
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 1: swee is a mess in then, And I think that's

469
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 1: like I love what you said about how effortless it

470
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 1: comes across, and I think it's that way also because

471
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: I don't actually think that there is any respect for history,

472
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 1: like mainstream history, and it's not something like it's not

473
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 1: something to be passed down religiously because it's so like

474
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 1: biased and so full of erasures that it's actually like

475
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 1: it's more of a testament, like the I look at

476
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 1: the film more of a testament of like what's possible

477
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 1: beyond the confines of history, rather than trying to like

478
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 1: bring those forgotten black actresses back into the canon of

479
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 1: the mainstream of history. Yeah, yeah, because I think there's,

480
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 1: like there are real actresses who get mentioned in the

481
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 1: movie or like mentioned in the credits, like Butterfly McQueen

482
00:31:54,960 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 1: and Hardie McDaniel, which are names that like people obviously

483
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 1: still remember today, but there are like just as many

484
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 1: actors from that era who, like this fictional character of

485
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 1: the Watermelon Woman, have been completely forgotten and completely erased

486
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 1: because like records were never even kept in the first

487
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 1: place of them and their work. So and and I

488
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 1: like how again, like Cheryl Dania uses the kind of

489
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: like free for all format of this movie too challenge

490
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 1: the way that this history is kept, where I forget

491
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 1: what person she's talking to, but it's someone who is saying, like, oh,

492
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 1: it's impossible that that Faye and Martha could have been

493
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 1: in a relationship that just absolutely wouldn't have happened during

494
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 1: this time, and as they're talking, Cheryl edited like a

495
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 1: million photos of them together, clearly dating, and just I

496
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 1: don't know, like, yeah, that the not only like addressing

497
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 1: how the gatekeepers are acting towards Cheryl and acting extremely

498
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 1: dismissive or disorganized or whatever the situation is in the nineties,

499
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 1: but also that the history, like you're like you're saying crustal,

500
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 1: the history that she's accessing needs to be combed through

501
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 1: as well, because there's just so much bias in how

502
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 1: phase life was documented in the first place, and it's

503
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 1: so significant that in the end, like most of the

504
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 1: crucial information she gets it is like not from all

505
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 1: those like libraries or like official repositories of knowledge, but

506
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 1: like literally is a queer community in Philly and like

507
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 1: those older black lesbians. Like that's also something I really

508
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 1: appreciate about this film, is like seeing older black lesbians

509
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 1: on screen is something that's so rare and like reflecting

510
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 1: about like like the memories of faith that cannot like

511
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 1: clash a bit with Shares on narration and what she

512
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 1: wants to remember. But I don't know, I thought that

513
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 1: generational aspect and the way in which people preserve memories

514
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:09,439
Speaker 1: that are not deemed worth preserving in libraries and mother

515
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: arms was really interesting, Yeah, especially because like the information

516
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 1: that Cheryl is able to find about Faye Richard's in

517
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 1: like books and archives and stuff all focus on her

518
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:28,439
Speaker 1: relationship with Martha Page, this white woman. And then when

519
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 1: she goes and gets information from June Walker, who is

520
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 1: like Faye Richard's life partner for twenty years, June is like, why, like,

521
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 1: why are you focusing on this Martha Page lady? She

522
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,319
Speaker 1: has nothing to do with phase life. That was only

523
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 1: like a small sliver like But and then like Cheryl

524
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 1: her sort of like conclusive thought is like, well, you know,

525
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 1: it's all kind of important, Like it's it's just helpful

526
00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:00,359
Speaker 1: to see the whole scope, the whole picture of at all.

527
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:02,839
Speaker 1: But yeah, it just goes to show that, like what

528
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 1: little is available in like the quote unquote history books

529
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 1: still frames Faye Richard's in terms of her relationship to

530
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 1: a white woman, where like, again, that was only a

531
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 1: small sliver of her life and the rest of the

532
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 1: time she was like singing in black clubs in Philadelphia

533
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 1: to what does the one woman say? She's like, yeah,

534
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 1: all of us Stone butch Lesbians loved her, and we

535
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 1: she's saying to all of us, she sang for us,

536
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 1: that was so beautiful. But yeah, I feel like that

537
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 1: that focus on that white woman Mata page, it's not

538
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 1: just the doing of the of official history, but it's

539
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:55,359
Speaker 1: Sharriers herself and what she wants to like, Like, it's

540
00:35:55,400 --> 00:36:00,759
Speaker 1: interesting this that ending um end is trying to complexity

541
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 1: and trying to hold all of the parts of someone,

542
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 1: but also like you're not actually holding all of the parts,

543
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 1: You're still focusing on some of them more than others.

544
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 1: And I feel like she was really like working through

545
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:18,320
Speaker 1: her own relationship also with Diana through through fee which

546
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 1: like explain a bit emphasis and a bit of your

547
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:26,279
Speaker 1: session on math page. But yeah, it's it's like it

548
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 1: talks to like what again that disregard for history and

549
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 1: official history and even like collective memory, but that sense

550
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 1: that anyone is free to an extent with like respect

551
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 1: of course, but to like take from the past what

552
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:47,239
Speaker 1: allows them to like find a sense or like find

553
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,880
Speaker 1: meaning in the present. And the fact that like that

554
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 1: is going to be tensioned between different generations of black

555
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:57,279
Speaker 1: lesbians around what happened, what did not happen, but it

556
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that she has to completely bye bye that

557
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 1: Hord or generation sense. I just found that that portrayal

558
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 1: of that tension was really interesting because you don't necessarily

559
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 1: entility side with Cheryl, but you also understand her desire

560
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 1: to hold out of those spiecies of fair together. Yeah, yeah,

561
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 1: I didn't see that, like the the like shades of

562
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 1: gray in the ending coming. I thought it was so

563
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 1: interesting that the choice that she makes, because when you

564
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 1: hear you know, June's that, I was like, oh, yeah,

565
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 1: of course, like that's nothing would be more infuriating to

566
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:39,879
Speaker 1: someone's partner of twenty years than for them to be

567
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 1: defined by a way in the past relationship that was

568
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,839
Speaker 1: way overblown in terms of its importance in the love

569
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 1: of your life's you know, lifetime. And then also seeing

570
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,840
Speaker 1: like where where Cheryl is kind of navigating all these

571
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 1: ways of keeping history and all these roadblocks that she encounters,

572
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,320
Speaker 1: and then at the end sort of being like, Okay,

573
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 1: I've talked to everyone I could possibly talk to. Here's

574
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 1: how I'm choosing to keep this history, and like she

575
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 1: is presenting it the way that is most significant to

576
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 1: her and not necessarily like what June would want, and

577
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 1: we don't know what Fay would want, and and and

578
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 1: again it's like it's done so smoothly without feeling like

579
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 1: you're being bashed over the head with like history it's

580
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 1: so complicated, which it is, but the way that Cheryl

581
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:32,799
Speaker 1: does it is just so effortless. And and in the

582
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 1: way that these characters are written to it's like everyone

583
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 1: I don't know, Like no one is completely right or

584
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 1: wrong in their perception of anything, and it's like you're

585
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:44,840
Speaker 1: able to connect even if you don't agree with the

586
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 1: character's perspective on something, you can understand where they're coming from.

587
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 1: And like it's just I don't know the characters are

588
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:54,880
Speaker 1: are and the way they relate to each other is written,

589
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:58,360
Speaker 1: so it just feels so real in the way that

590
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 1: how people deal with each other. This movie June reminds

591
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 1: me a lot of Tamara in some ways. Um And

592
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 1: as much as like you have disparity between Faye and

593
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 1: Cheryl and Diana and matter Page, I feel like Tamara

594
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:19,880
Speaker 1: also kind of resonate a lot with that perspective of

595
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 1: like this kind of hostility or tension in relationship to

596
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:29,840
Speaker 1: friends or like partners who give a lot of time

597
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 1: and space intra community space to the white friends or

598
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:38,320
Speaker 1: the white partners, and the kind of dynamics at tensions

599
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:42,280
Speaker 1: that that can create. And there's something in the energy

600
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 1: and there and the hostility in these two characters that

601
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 1: feels very similar, like the tone, the ending ton of

602
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 1: that letter and the anchor in June's voice, why do

603
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:57,799
Speaker 1: you want like okay, that question, why do you want

604
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 1: to make it about matter page? It's remind in me

605
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 1: of Tamara asking like saying to Jerial, Yeah, once again,

606
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 1: you're dating a white woman wants to be black, right, Yeah,

607
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:16,839
Speaker 1: there's definite parallels. And another thing that Tomorrow says like

608
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 1: Cheryl has ordered a bunch of these like thirties and

609
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 1: forties movies where the black characters in those movies are

610
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 1: all like the Mammy archetype. And Tomorrow says like, I

611
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 1: can't stand most of the ship that Hollywood puts out today,

612
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 1: let alone that like old Mammy ship, Like why are

613
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 1: you so obsessed with these old, terrible movies that do

614
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 1: not represent black people? Well? Which is a fair question. Yeah,

615
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 1: Like it's very easy to see why, Like I don't know.

616
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 1: It makes it like that where Tabor is like why

617
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 1: are you subjecting yourself of this? Like what is in

618
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 1: it for you? Like go you know, go outside. Uh.

619
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 1: Like there's just like this like very perverse pleasure that

620
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 1: Shares takes into those movies that just like like sometimes

621
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,839
Speaker 1: I have questions, like I don't know, if you see

622
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,880
Speaker 1: that scene where you have the TV screen where you

623
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 1: see Fay Richards playing into plantation memories and like comforting

624
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 1: the white mistress, I think at that moment, and then

625
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:32,359
Speaker 1: you have Cherios face right next to the screen that's

626
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:37,719
Speaker 1: imitating the voice, and it's like there's so much pleasure

627
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,919
Speaker 1: in like you can see like she's enjoying it so

628
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 1: much and like trying to get into face skin, and

629
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 1: I'm like, what's happening. We need a bit of therapy.

630
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 1: She's like Jamie and I when we watch Titanic and

631
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:01,560
Speaker 1: recyce the entire movie along with the characters. Yeah, she's

632
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:03,280
Speaker 1: like doing that. She also is kind of like wearing

633
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 1: the costume and she's like really getting into it and

634
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:10,319
Speaker 1: she knows all the dialogue and it's like and it

635
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 1: does make you wonder, like Cheryl, you know why? But

636
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 1: then it's like watching that bear out, It's like I

637
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 1: don't know, Yeah, like, there are are moments where you're like, sure,

638
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,359
Speaker 1: what are you doing? But then she does. But then

639
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 1: it's like it wasn't for nothing, because she does end

640
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 1: up digging into and like preserving a piece of history

641
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:32,799
Speaker 1: that wouldn't have been preserved otherwise. And so it's like

642
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 1: at some point you're like, I think she's just like

643
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:38,279
Speaker 1: torturing herself for no reason. But then at the end

644
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 1: it's like, well, it wasn't for no reason. She like

645
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:45,799
Speaker 1: there there was no effort to document this person's existence

646
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 1: and and their life and who they really were or

647
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:52,320
Speaker 1: even like their name. It was like really hard to

648
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 1: find out who Fay was. And I loved how Tamara

649
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 1: and and Cheryl came at that issue completely differently because

650
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 1: both of their outlooks, You're like, oh, I get it,

651
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:10,239
Speaker 1: but Cheryl's just Cheryl's doing the weird costplay huff. Yeah.

652
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:14,959
Speaker 1: Talking about like Hattie Hattie McDaniel and some of those

653
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:19,239
Speaker 1: other actresses, I think it's also significant to me. I'm

654
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:22,400
Speaker 1: not sure what to make of it, but it's significant

655
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:26,800
Speaker 1: to me that the money in those films was often

656
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 1: a plus size or like a fat black woman that

657
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:36,360
Speaker 1: didn't like necessarily confirmed to like standards of like beauty,

658
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:40,320
Speaker 1: like even in terms of like futurism and like skin color,

659
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:42,520
Speaker 1: like it was often like a very dark skinned woman

660
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 1: and like fair Witson is like so as a complete

661
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 1: opposite of that, like she's like this very thin. She's

662
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 1: not like King, but she's not darkk in either, and

663
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:58,840
Speaker 1: like in terms of features, she's like she doesn't have

664
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 1: have what has been associated with like African features quote

665
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:07,240
Speaker 1: unquote like the I don't know, it's significant that Cherl

666
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 1: would choose that specific actress to play that role and

667
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 1: to play that history. And I don't know what to

668
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 1: make of it, because it's just interesting to see all

669
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 1: of a sudden, the fear of the money being sexualized

670
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:24,600
Speaker 1: in that way and not just being like a site

671
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 1: of like comfort for like white children or like white families,

672
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 1: but like also like a sexual being and like a

673
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:35,680
Speaker 1: queer sexual being. But then I'm wandering, like is it

674
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 1: only possible because she was made finn and like good

675
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 1: looking in that way. I don't know, I have so

676
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 1: many questions. Yeah, it is very curious because like Fay Richards,

677
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 1: the fictional person slash character is embodying this many role

678
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:04,800
Speaker 1: but didn't look like other actors who played those mammy roles. Yeah,

679
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:07,360
Speaker 1: so it's like that that is I don't know what

680
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 1: to make of it either. We got to get Cheryl

681
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 1: on the pod. We've got questions, yes, because it seems

682
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 1: like everything I don't know that it watching get back

683
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 1: a couple of times. It seems like she's making all

684
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:23,399
Speaker 1: of these decisions really intentionally, and I wonder if she's

685
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 1: ever if she's ever spoken to it, because it's like,

686
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 1: clearly she she knows her ship. You know, she's built

687
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 1: that this film scholar character. She has all of the

688
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:35,879
Speaker 1: memorabilia acts like, so I'm like, well, well she knows

689
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 1: what she's talking about. I wonder why that was the

690
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 1: way she chose to go with with the story. I

691
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 1: don't know. I wish it was like spoken about a

692
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 1: little more explicitly now that we're talking about it, because

693
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 1: then you also have the character slash real life person

694
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:55,880
Speaker 1: Camille Poulia, who I had to do some research on

695
00:45:55,960 --> 00:46:02,319
Speaker 1: because I did not know because okay, because the thing

696
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:05,680
Speaker 1: is like kavil Plia is like every time I'm supposed

697
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:08,279
Speaker 1: to learn why she's problematic, I start to learn and

698
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:10,279
Speaker 1: then I get really tired and I don't actually learn.

699
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:15,360
Speaker 1: I know she's messy, but I don't know the context

700
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 1: of what, but like for good the details, but I think,

701
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:22,399
Speaker 1: is it okay. I don't want to like defame her

702
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:25,880
Speaker 1: in anyways, but I feel like she was defending the

703
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:29,279
Speaker 1: use of like Rachual Slows at some point there was

704
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 1: a scandal like that, right that would not surprise me.

705
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 1: I just did a very periphery Wikipedia search about her

706
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 1: because Okay, so for for context, this is the like

707
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:45,280
Speaker 1: the character that Cheryl goes to. She's like a professor

708
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:50,360
Speaker 1: slash culture critic who Cheryl interviews seeing if she knows

709
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 1: anything about the Watermelon woman and typical typical of like

710
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:58,239
Speaker 1: the Waterman and Woman and the documentary style, like she's

711
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:04,880
Speaker 1: paying herself and her And it's been commented that Camille

712
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:08,359
Speaker 1: Paulia is doing a parody version of herself, but then

713
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 1: when you read about her, you're like, I don't think

714
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 1: this is parody because so basically she's giving very strong

715
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:19,280
Speaker 1: opinions in this interview, basically saying that black people's opinions

716
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:24,480
Speaker 1: about the tropes in all old Hollywood are wrong, that

717
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:27,759
Speaker 1: the Mammy character has been misinterpreted, and it's actually a

718
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:31,720
Speaker 1: really good thing. That like the image of a little

719
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:35,720
Speaker 1: black boy with a watermelon, that's actually a really good

720
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:40,879
Speaker 1: positive thing in the world. Her Italian family for like

721
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:45,359
Speaker 1: no reason, like, and then she's the character who's like

722
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:49,879
Speaker 1: interracial relationships. What that couldn't have possibly been a thing?

723
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 1: That was her? Okay, that was her, and Cheryl's cutting

724
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 1: in like, uh, clearly it was. And then you read

725
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 1: about her on Wikipedia and real life. Camille Polia is

726
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 1: a libertarian. I'm pretty sure she's a turf. In the nineties,

727
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 1: she supported NAMBLA and supported lowering the age of consent

728
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:19,240
Speaker 1: to fourteen years old, among other things. So she has

729
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:24,239
Speaker 1: some real dogshit views. So I don't think this was

730
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 1: a parody of her. I think this is probably who

731
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:31,759
Speaker 1: she really was. I RL and also, like, parody has

732
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:36,319
Speaker 1: always been used to like masks actual racist feelings, so

733
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:42,359
Speaker 1: it wouldn't be the first time exactly. So I don't

734
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:47,040
Speaker 1: like Camille Paulia no hard paths. Every time I learned

735
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:49,239
Speaker 1: something about her as like I need, I need to

736
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 1: go on a walk. I was surprised to see her

737
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:54,880
Speaker 1: in this movie, but there are like there's a few again,

738
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:57,279
Speaker 1: I'm like, Cheryl's gotta come on the pot I want

739
00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:01,200
Speaker 1: to understand like the decision making going on here, because

740
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:06,719
Speaker 1: there was another person. Sarah Shulman plays the clip archivist

741
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 1: who's dumping out of boxes and she's like been a

742
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:14,360
Speaker 1: queer activist and like an AIDS activist specifically for decades

743
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 1: and decades. And it's again, it's it's like, it's very

744
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:21,040
Speaker 1: easy to confuse this as an actual documentary at the

745
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 1: beginning because there's real figures, um from academia coming into this.

746
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 1: It's Cheryl's real mom, like all of these people that

747
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:33,279
Speaker 1: that actually existed. The Camille polly a thing threw me

748
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:36,360
Speaker 1: for threw me for a loop. It was that was

749
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 1: very unpleasant, but it was unpleasant, but also like so

750
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:49,840
Speaker 1: exactly it like it was like such an accurate representation,

751
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 1: like especially being in academia at the moment I'm doing

752
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 1: my PhD. Of like the way sometime Scota would speak

753
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:02,759
Speaker 1: with such authority, right an arrogance about things they don't

754
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 1: know she about. Because this is the same people who

755
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 1: are like perpetuating what version of history we learn and

756
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:19,920
Speaker 1: we see. And it just makes you really unsettled to

757
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:25,200
Speaker 1: know that people like uh, that lady are teaching the

758
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:29,239
Speaker 1: youth of America and are still pretty prominent figures too.

759
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:33,160
Speaker 1: I was like surprised to see how prominent Camille Polia

760
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:38,759
Speaker 1: still is. I uh, this is post episode j B

761
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 1: and Caitlin Wow love below. Um. So, I wanted to

762
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 1: just drop in here because I've learned a lot about

763
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:52,799
Speaker 1: Camille paglias work since we recorded this episode several weeks ago.

764
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 1: Because quick plug, I'm working on a podcast about Kathy

765
00:50:57,040 --> 00:51:00,759
Speaker 1: comics and so and so like that comic was coming

766
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:03,840
Speaker 1: out between the seventies and the two thousand's, and so

767
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:07,560
Speaker 1: I've been doing research on the different feminist waves of

768
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:10,840
Speaker 1: those times, right, and so in a book I was

769
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:15,880
Speaker 1: reading that I recommend called Backlash by Susan Faludi. It

770
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:18,400
Speaker 1: was written in the late eighties, and it examines how

771
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 1: a lot of the gains that the feminist movement that

772
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:25,400
Speaker 1: is very imperfect, but but the gains of the feminist

773
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:29,560
Speaker 1: movement in the nineteen seventies were backlashed in the pop

774
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:33,880
Speaker 1: culture and politics of the nineteen eighties and the Reagan years.

775
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:39,400
Speaker 1: It's very interesting, it's very long, but but Camille Paglia

776
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:41,640
Speaker 1: is brought up in that book a number of times

777
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 1: as kind of the scholar who kind of exemplifies that

778
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:50,880
Speaker 1: backlash where uh Camiele Paglia was famous for writing stuff

779
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:55,680
Speaker 1: like that women who report date rape and anyone who

780
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:58,160
Speaker 1: reports date rape like it, the onus is on them

781
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:02,160
Speaker 1: to not get raped summarized thing there. Uh there have

782
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:04,320
Speaker 1: been and I think you mentioned this in the episode,

783
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:07,960
Speaker 1: there have been more recent scandals with her comments on

784
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:10,719
Speaker 1: trans people on the Me Too move and she's just

785
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:16,719
Speaker 1: I'm not aligned with her politics at all, and so yeah,

786
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:21,360
Speaker 1: I don't recommend reading her work. I found it very unpleasant.

787
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:26,240
Speaker 1: But the context of of her history and kind of

788
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:29,399
Speaker 1: how Susan Faludi suggests that she came to prominence through

789
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:32,440
Speaker 1: the backlash movement made a lot of sense and kind

790
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:39,080
Speaker 1: of made me understand why this libertarian cameo. Paglia uh

791
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:42,799
Speaker 1: had such swing in her day and still does to

792
00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:48,520
Speaker 1: an extent. So gross don't love it. Back to the episode, Oh,

793
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:53,440
Speaker 1: another really funny joke from the movie is as Cheryl

794
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:57,360
Speaker 1: is doing her research, she comes upon She's like, oh,

795
00:52:57,400 --> 00:53:00,279
Speaker 1: there's this new book. I found it a gay and

796
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:05,600
Speaker 1: lesbian bookstore. It's called Hollywood Lesbians by Doug mcgowden. And

797
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:08,280
Speaker 1: then she was like, I wonder if he's a lesbian,

798
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:12,440
Speaker 1: which is just another example of like how like a

799
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:17,000
Speaker 1: guy named Doug, probably not a lesbian, is writing a

800
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:21,319
Speaker 1: book about Hollywood lesbians, and um, you know, probably not

801
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:24,000
Speaker 1: the best person to write that book. And it's all

802
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:26,520
Speaker 1: like white women on the cover of the book too,

803
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:29,319
Speaker 1: is like something that pops out right away. So it's

804
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:33,200
Speaker 1: just yeah, I's like another like I guess I'm more subtle,

805
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 1: not in in that specific joke, but just of like

806
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:39,319
Speaker 1: who is keeping the history? Who is being put at

807
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:42,240
Speaker 1: the front of these histories, and like, is the person

808
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 1: who's presenting it to you even reliable in terms of

809
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 1: what their biases are? Uh, let's take another quick break

810
00:53:50,560 --> 00:54:00,399
Speaker 1: and we'll be right back, and we're back. What else?

811
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:04,000
Speaker 1: I wanted to just shout out that this is the

812
00:54:04,239 --> 00:54:10,560
Speaker 1: first feature length narrative film directed by black lesbian, the

813
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:14,600
Speaker 1: first we know of, the first we know of. Yes true,

814
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:19,320
Speaker 1: right like face features and made the like other uncovered histories,

815
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:23,399
Speaker 1: that's true. I also, this is just such an interesting

816
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:29,080
Speaker 1: movie to cover on our podcast. It just feels especially

817
00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:34,360
Speaker 1: relevant because it's a movie about how representation in media,

818
00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:39,480
Speaker 1: or a lack thereof, how it affects people, how it

819
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:44,160
Speaker 1: affects the main character of Cheryl, how it affects Cheryl

820
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:49,279
Speaker 1: the filmmaker, and how it inspires her to make a

821
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:52,560
Speaker 1: movie about black women. And there's a part in the

822
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:56,759
Speaker 1: movie early on where Cheryl the character, because I feel

823
00:54:56,760 --> 00:54:59,400
Speaker 1: like we have to distinguish Cheryl the character from Cheryl

824
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:03,839
Speaker 1: the the director. Um Cheryl the character. She's doing like

825
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:07,040
Speaker 1: a talking head interview kind of thing in front of

826
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:11,120
Speaker 1: like the video camcorder, and she's talking about the project

827
00:55:11,239 --> 00:55:14,239
Speaker 1: she's wanting to work on, and she's like, you know,

828
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:16,440
Speaker 1: I want to make a film, but I don't really

829
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 1: know what I want to make a film on. I

830
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:22,760
Speaker 1: just know it has to be about black women because

831
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:27,120
Speaker 1: our stories have never been told. Which is like the

832
00:55:27,160 --> 00:55:34,720
Speaker 1: impetus for her to make this documentary about the Watermelon Woman.

833
00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:38,839
Speaker 1: It's Cheryl Junier the director's impetus for like wanting to

834
00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:42,840
Speaker 1: make this narrative film the Watermelon Woman. There's just like

835
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:46,399
Speaker 1: all these layers, but it's just all about a lack

836
00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:52,080
Speaker 1: of representation inspiring her to tell her own story and

837
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:55,239
Speaker 1: to you know, tell a story about black women and

838
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:59,200
Speaker 1: black queer women. I was interested too, I had never

839
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:02,920
Speaker 1: done like a deep divan Cheryl Dinier's like work prior

840
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:06,920
Speaker 1: to The Watermelon Woman before prepping for this episode, and

841
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:08,920
Speaker 1: it seems like there is like a fair amount of

842
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:11,799
Speaker 1: overlap between the character and the film the actual filmmaker

843
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:16,600
Speaker 1: there where most of her early work is centered around

844
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:21,279
Speaker 1: the black lesbian community. There's a lot of um and

845
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:24,040
Speaker 1: I would I didn't get to watch her short films

846
00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:28,120
Speaker 1: before this episode, but there's a lot of it seems

847
00:56:28,160 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 1: like she's exploring the theme of like interracial lesbian relationships

848
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:35,239
Speaker 1: a lot. And yeah, like how I would say, if

849
00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:40,279
Speaker 1: you've seen The Waterman and Woman, you've seen her earlier shots. No,

850
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:43,799
Speaker 1: it's it's unfair. It's unfair. It's unfair. I'm just being

851
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:49,080
Speaker 1: I'm just being provocative here, but it's it's a lot

852
00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:53,160
Speaker 1: of like repetition of that trope of um, the black

853
00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:57,680
Speaker 1: lesbian dating. It's like typical bourgeois white woman and like

854
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:02,520
Speaker 1: having to deal with like Mike raig rations like racism

855
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:08,359
Speaker 1: and like deciding if that relationship is even worthing. It's

856
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:13,520
Speaker 1: I don't have questions for you as a person, and

857
00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:17,640
Speaker 1: like like how she's like working out like I understand

858
00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:21,120
Speaker 1: as an as a person, she's like working out something

859
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:25,919
Speaker 1: through all of those shots and movies, because even like

860
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:30,120
Speaker 1: some of her features after also deal with that film.

861
00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:34,280
Speaker 1: But it's just it's just the insistent on that specific

862
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:38,440
Speaker 1: film is very striking. Um there's one that I mentioned

863
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:41,920
Speaker 1: quickly in the piece. There's one shot that's no, I

864
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:44,360
Speaker 1: don't mention it actually as a POTLG and the Passion,

865
00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:48,560
Speaker 1: which is basically like Chirl with her friends, like having

866
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:52,040
Speaker 1: like like a dinner at home, and you have this

867
00:57:52,160 --> 00:57:55,120
Speaker 1: like canon equal white woman and like the kind of

868
00:57:55,160 --> 00:57:59,800
Speaker 1: tensions we emerge into friend groups from having that white

869
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:04,200
Speaker 1: woman present in like this intra community space. And the

870
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:07,400
Speaker 1: enter is another one where the title itself is like

871
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:14,680
Speaker 1: it's called like Greetings from Africa. Yeah, yeah, and it's

872
00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:18,880
Speaker 1: basically like this white woman that like she dates briefly

873
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:21,680
Speaker 1: and then she's like, oh, I'm doing all this engine

874
00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:24,840
Speaker 1: will work in Africa and like when they like it's

875
00:58:24,880 --> 00:58:28,040
Speaker 1: just like a one thing and they're like separate, and

876
00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:30,200
Speaker 1: she receives this card from this white woman who is

877
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:33,800
Speaker 1: known Africa and it was like hey, which is kind

878
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:36,680
Speaker 1: of hinted it in The Waterman and Woman because I

879
00:58:36,720 --> 00:58:41,480
Speaker 1: think Diana also has some engine work, right, Yeah. And

880
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:44,400
Speaker 1: then she also She's like, I was born in Jamaica,

881
00:58:45,240 --> 00:58:53,439
Speaker 1: isn't that cool? And Tamara is like yeah, And then

882
00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:57,200
Speaker 1: Cheryl and her friends because Tomorrow is dating a woman,

883
00:58:57,640 --> 00:59:00,680
Speaker 1: is it Stacy? Is that her name? And they're all

884
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:06,360
Speaker 1: just like, hey, why are you here again? And these

885
00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:09,400
Speaker 1: also feels very nineties, Like I feel like that's a

886
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:12,360
Speaker 1: time where people were like really hashing out all of

887
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:16,520
Speaker 1: those questions, which also like explains the kind of I

888
00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:19,720
Speaker 1: don't know, irritation or like to find that like we

889
00:59:19,760 --> 00:59:22,520
Speaker 1: can feel like we're like over it now and it

890
00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:25,959
Speaker 1: feels like very passy, but like, yeah, I think it's

891
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:30,040
Speaker 1: also like a predict of its time in that sense. Yeah,

892
00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:33,560
Speaker 1: for sure, totally. Yeah. I mean the way that the

893
00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:38,480
Speaker 1: Ryl Diana relationship plays out is it does like as

894
00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:40,200
Speaker 1: I was reading about her older work, I was like, oh,

895
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:42,240
Speaker 1: this is this is a theme that comes up for

896
00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:45,960
Speaker 1: her a lot, and it was this is a side up.

897
00:59:46,000 --> 00:59:48,120
Speaker 1: But I was like, wait, I recognize the lady who

898
00:59:48,160 --> 00:59:53,840
Speaker 1: plays Diana. It's because she's like co wrote American Psycho anyways, Yeah,

899
00:59:53,920 --> 00:59:56,280
Speaker 1: and and is in it. She plays a character in it,

900
00:59:56,320 --> 01:00:01,200
Speaker 1: and the Edwards Yeah, yeah, she's like this iconic queer

901
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:04,160
Speaker 1: rent and so I was like, oh, that's just like

902
01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:07,600
Speaker 1: her when she was really young. Interesting. Um, but yeah,

903
01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:12,440
Speaker 1: the the way that Cheryl writes Diana too, I mean

904
01:00:12,520 --> 01:00:15,840
Speaker 1: that dinner scene is so cringe e for so many reasons.

905
01:00:16,160 --> 01:00:19,040
Speaker 1: But Diana is kind of instinct that no matter what

906
01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:22,600
Speaker 1: anyone at the table says, she just immediately finds a

907
01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:26,080
Speaker 1: way to make it about herself and like, you know,

908
01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:29,720
Speaker 1: kind of like hijacked the conversation no matter what is

909
01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:32,040
Speaker 1: being discussed. And then she's like, oh, look I'm so cool.

910
01:00:32,080 --> 01:00:34,080
Speaker 1: Oh I've lived everywhere. Oh I've done this, I've done that.

911
01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:37,240
Speaker 1: And it's like we were talking about not not even

912
01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:40,880
Speaker 1: remotely that, and she just like her instinct is to

913
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:46,480
Speaker 1: center herself and the push and pull in that I

914
01:00:46,520 --> 01:00:48,880
Speaker 1: feel like it I don't know, I mean, it kind

915
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:51,200
Speaker 1: of gets resolved, but it kind of doesn't by the

916
01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:53,880
Speaker 1: end of the movie with Cheryl and Tamara, where Cheryl's

917
01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:56,640
Speaker 1: kind of like, I hope we'll figure it out, Like

918
01:00:56,760 --> 01:00:59,600
Speaker 1: we don't really know what happened, but it's clear that

919
01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:05,400
Speaker 1: Hamard is uncomfortable with how passive Cheryl becomes in those situations,

920
01:01:05,440 --> 01:01:08,680
Speaker 1: which is like an interesting tension to set up. And

921
01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:11,440
Speaker 1: then but it doesn't really resolve by the end of

922
01:01:11,480 --> 01:01:14,520
Speaker 1: the movie either. That was another one of those like

923
01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:18,160
Speaker 1: screenwriting things. I was like, but where's the what's the

924
01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:21,880
Speaker 1: closure there? I want I want to know where their

925
01:01:21,920 --> 01:01:28,320
Speaker 1: friends again? No closure? Uh? Does anyone have any other fat? Yeah?

926
01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:31,160
Speaker 1: I think it's interesting to me that the thing that

927
01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:35,160
Speaker 1: like the last roof for cher All is really its

928
01:01:35,680 --> 01:01:38,960
Speaker 1: family visit, as the fact that Na is not defending

929
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:43,480
Speaker 1: her and like not even like trying to react to

930
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:47,400
Speaker 1: like how her relatives behavior and like the racism, like

931
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:51,880
Speaker 1: even like a black maid passing through doing that visit.

932
01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:57,040
Speaker 1: And it's just interesting like that question of interracial relationships

933
01:01:57,160 --> 01:02:00,640
Speaker 1: and like walking it out for yourself as an individual.

934
01:02:00,760 --> 01:02:03,880
Speaker 1: But then like also when a family gets involved and

935
01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:07,120
Speaker 1: when your friends also when like what your friends are

936
01:02:07,160 --> 01:02:11,720
Speaker 1: ready to accept or not was also interesting, right Yeah? Yeah,

937
01:02:11,840 --> 01:02:14,960
Speaker 1: I mean that's the scene where Diana like, you're you're

938
01:02:15,040 --> 01:02:17,880
Speaker 1: kind of like because it's the interview with the with

939
01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:23,480
Speaker 1: the racist, homophobic sister of the White Lady director Martha Page.

940
01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:25,720
Speaker 1: I keep wanting to say, Martha Plimpton, is that a

941
01:02:25,760 --> 01:02:30,760
Speaker 1: real person? Martha Plimpton everything? Um, But Martha Page, you know,

942
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:33,120
Speaker 1: you keep I was kind of waiting for Diana to

943
01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:37,440
Speaker 1: like say something, and she just kind of doesn't. She

944
01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:40,920
Speaker 1: freezes up, and like, I don't know that. Again, that's

945
01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:42,720
Speaker 1: just like a relationship that I would I would like

946
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:46,800
Speaker 1: to hear Cheryl Danier talk about like how she where

947
01:02:46,840 --> 01:02:50,640
Speaker 1: she was crafting that, where that was coming from, because

948
01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:54,080
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a lot and it's really interesting, and

949
01:02:54,640 --> 01:02:57,080
Speaker 1: but but then it's it kind of it's not that

950
01:02:57,120 --> 01:02:59,280
Speaker 1: it goes nowhere, it's just that you don't really know

951
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:03,360
Speaker 1: where they're at at the end, or like exactly how

952
01:03:03,440 --> 01:03:06,400
Speaker 1: Cheryl Danier feels about all of it. Like she's presented

953
01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:09,840
Speaker 1: all these different perspectives on this relationship, but we don't

954
01:03:09,840 --> 01:03:13,080
Speaker 1: really know like where she landed on it, which again

955
01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:16,000
Speaker 1: it's like interesting that doesn't happen in movies a lot.

956
01:03:16,040 --> 01:03:18,479
Speaker 1: And then maybe and then I was I got into

957
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:20,920
Speaker 1: my own head. I'm like, Jamie, you're such a baby.

958
01:03:20,960 --> 01:03:23,840
Speaker 1: You expect people to spoon feed you. The moral of

959
01:03:23,880 --> 01:03:30,280
Speaker 1: the storage, Well, that's another interesting thing about this movie,

960
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:34,600
Speaker 1: which is the queer cinema that makes it to more

961
01:03:34,720 --> 01:03:39,360
Speaker 1: like Hollywood mainstream is often about like centering on a

962
01:03:39,440 --> 01:03:44,800
Speaker 1: queer relationship and like a queer romance as it begins

963
01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:49,440
Speaker 1: and in its early stages in a way that and

964
01:03:49,600 --> 01:03:53,040
Speaker 1: we've talked about this on different episodes, where it's like

965
01:03:53,240 --> 01:03:58,760
Speaker 1: a male gaze fetishized version of lesbian romance, whereas this movie,

966
01:03:59,000 --> 01:04:01,720
Speaker 1: you know, it's about a woman who is working on

967
01:04:01,720 --> 01:04:05,480
Speaker 1: this project who you know, happens to meet a woman

968
01:04:05,560 --> 01:04:08,440
Speaker 1: and start dating her, but that's not the focus of

969
01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:12,080
Speaker 1: the movie. It's just presented as a normal part of

970
01:04:12,160 --> 01:04:15,479
Speaker 1: the main character's life. We also see other normal parts

971
01:04:15,520 --> 01:04:19,080
Speaker 1: of her life, like her job and her friend group,

972
01:04:19,400 --> 01:04:22,800
Speaker 1: which by the way, are mostly other lesbians, which I

973
01:04:22,800 --> 01:04:26,160
Speaker 1: feel like is very common in real life where lesbians

974
01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:29,080
Speaker 1: are friends with many other lesbians, but you don't often

975
01:04:29,080 --> 01:04:31,560
Speaker 1: see that on screen. So I appreciate that this movie

976
01:04:31,640 --> 01:04:35,200
Speaker 1: just does a really nice job of normalizing a lesbians

977
01:04:35,280 --> 01:04:38,240
Speaker 1: life with things like being in a relationship, but that

978
01:04:38,360 --> 01:04:42,600
Speaker 1: not being the driving force of her life. It's just

979
01:04:42,720 --> 01:04:46,880
Speaker 1: an aspect of her life, and we see her interact

980
01:04:46,920 --> 01:04:53,880
Speaker 1: with her friends, and especially Tamara, who whose main subplot

981
01:04:53,920 --> 01:04:56,760
Speaker 1: in the movie is that she's really horny and her

982
01:04:56,760 --> 01:04:59,840
Speaker 1: girlfriend is not having sex with her, and she keeps

983
01:04:59,880 --> 01:05:03,000
Speaker 1: me like I'm trying to get some my girlfriend keeps

984
01:05:03,080 --> 01:05:08,480
Speaker 1: not putting out and I'm really horny about Charles. She's

985
01:05:08,520 --> 01:05:11,040
Speaker 1: in grad school. Can you like cut her some slack,

986
01:05:12,960 --> 01:05:15,800
Speaker 1: she's getting her m b A. Like she she's busy,

987
01:05:16,040 --> 01:05:19,600
Speaker 1: she's stressed out. So it's just like it's a really

988
01:05:19,600 --> 01:05:23,400
Speaker 1: cool thing to see that all normalized, which is what

989
01:05:23,440 --> 01:05:27,120
Speaker 1: you get when there's a movie written and directed by

990
01:05:27,160 --> 01:05:30,840
Speaker 1: a queer person. Yeah, and and like we I mean

991
01:05:30,880 --> 01:05:33,800
Speaker 1: we just recorded an episode last week on a Portrait

992
01:05:33,840 --> 01:05:36,880
Speaker 1: of a Lady on Fire, which which is like a

993
01:05:36,920 --> 01:05:39,720
Speaker 1: movie that we both really enjoyed. But it's like, you know,

994
01:05:40,160 --> 01:05:42,880
Speaker 1: there's a lot of like it's a forbidden love. It's

995
01:05:42,920 --> 01:05:47,520
Speaker 1: a forbidden old timey love between two willowy white ladies,

996
01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:50,240
Speaker 1: and like, you know, there's a lot of I don't

997
01:05:50,240 --> 01:05:53,000
Speaker 1: know that this movie is just presenting a reality. It

998
01:05:53,120 --> 01:05:55,640
Speaker 1: like feels like a slice of life movie that like

999
01:05:55,840 --> 01:06:01,320
Speaker 1: documents uh person's community and life in a very specific place. Too.

1000
01:06:01,480 --> 01:06:06,080
Speaker 1: I love how prominent Philly at multiple points in history

1001
01:06:06,440 --> 01:06:10,360
Speaker 1: is and that feels effortless in terms of like how

1002
01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:13,800
Speaker 1: important the location is to the movie. And it just

1003
01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:17,560
Speaker 1: I don't know, this movie is doing so much without like,

1004
01:06:17,560 --> 01:06:19,960
Speaker 1: like you said to your piece or stuff like without

1005
01:06:20,000 --> 01:06:25,480
Speaker 1: making it seem like it's doing so much. It's really interesting. Yeah,

1006
01:06:25,600 --> 01:06:28,800
Speaker 1: it says like there's a real like sense of pleasure

1007
01:06:28,840 --> 01:06:32,560
Speaker 1: and playfulness. You don't like it never gets heavy in

1008
01:06:32,640 --> 01:06:36,640
Speaker 1: any way. It was interesting about that Philip out like

1009
01:06:36,720 --> 01:06:39,680
Speaker 1: when she says when June says that like kind of

1010
01:06:39,720 --> 01:06:43,840
Speaker 1: revives that whole history of bars and places where lesbians

1011
01:06:43,880 --> 01:06:47,560
Speaker 1: used to hang it specifically black lesbians, and how those

1012
01:06:47,680 --> 01:06:52,720
Speaker 1: have disappeared a bit already by the time Childs start

1013
01:06:52,800 --> 01:06:55,520
Speaker 1: making the movie, and like thinking even now how it

1014
01:06:55,600 --> 01:06:59,120
Speaker 1: has even more disappeared. It's just like, Yeah, there's something

1015
01:06:59,120 --> 01:07:02,840
Speaker 1: really sad about aspect of queer life in the city

1016
01:07:03,080 --> 01:07:09,040
Speaker 1: and the space that don't exist more. Yeah, one thing

1017
01:07:09,080 --> 01:07:11,680
Speaker 1: we haven't talked about yet is there's a there's a

1018
01:07:11,760 --> 01:07:13,880
Speaker 1: there's a hot sex scene in the movie. I just

1019
01:07:13,920 --> 01:07:18,040
Speaker 1: wanted to shout it out. Not only there's a hot

1020
01:07:18,120 --> 01:07:21,720
Speaker 1: sex scene, but I just think she wouldn't really like

1021
01:07:21,880 --> 01:07:26,840
Speaker 1: showing her butts in movies. I just I just like

1022
01:07:27,200 --> 01:07:31,720
Speaker 1: notice that we're watching some of her film several times, Like,

1023
01:07:32,000 --> 01:07:34,760
Speaker 1: first of all, she has a really nice but but

1024
01:07:35,240 --> 01:07:38,920
Speaker 1: like it comes out a lot in The Watermelon Woman

1025
01:07:39,080 --> 01:07:42,480
Speaker 1: and other shots and yeah, if I had such a

1026
01:07:42,560 --> 01:07:47,720
Speaker 1: nice but I would also show it. We do see her,

1027
01:07:47,720 --> 01:07:50,920
Speaker 1: but we see her nips. We see one of your

1028
01:07:50,960 --> 01:07:55,760
Speaker 1: turner's nips as well. Yeah, I mean kind of hearkening

1029
01:07:55,800 --> 01:08:00,080
Speaker 1: back to a discussion we had on the Portrait of

1030
01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:03,760
Speaker 1: a Lady on Fire episode where a lot of movies

1031
01:08:03,880 --> 01:08:09,160
Speaker 1: about a lesbian romance that are directed by men a

1032
01:08:09,640 --> 01:08:14,840
Speaker 1: k A Blue is the warmest color. Is like, they're

1033
01:08:15,040 --> 01:08:19,120
Speaker 1: so fetishy and so like male gazy, whereas this one,

1034
01:08:19,160 --> 01:08:22,880
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, the people behind the camera are Cheryl

1035
01:08:22,920 --> 01:08:26,400
Speaker 1: Junier and also in front of the camera and a

1036
01:08:26,439 --> 01:08:28,880
Speaker 1: lot of the scenes, but then you've got um. The

1037
01:08:29,000 --> 01:08:33,120
Speaker 1: director of photography is a woman, Michelle Crenshaw. It's also

1038
01:08:33,280 --> 01:08:36,960
Speaker 1: edited by a woman, Annie Taylor, So you know when

1039
01:08:37,000 --> 01:08:41,280
Speaker 1: the representation behind the camera is people who are just

1040
01:08:41,360 --> 01:08:47,160
Speaker 1: more interested in showing what lesbian sects actually looks like

1041
01:08:47,520 --> 01:08:52,680
Speaker 1: rather than like a very site. Didn't Chryl Danner edit it?

1042
01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:56,920
Speaker 1: Am I missing she? I think she edited it herself,

1043
01:08:56,960 --> 01:09:01,160
Speaker 1: which is maybe why her butt comes up so much. Sorry,

1044
01:09:01,479 --> 01:09:04,760
Speaker 1: I was pulled. I don't know where I let me check. Yeah,

1045
01:09:04,800 --> 01:09:08,720
Speaker 1: I thought I saw maybe it was a Wikipedia Either way,

1046
01:09:08,760 --> 01:09:12,559
Speaker 1: there was a woman editing editing it in it, I

1047
01:09:12,560 --> 01:09:14,960
Speaker 1: don't know. I thought it was a good sex scene. Yeah,

1048
01:09:15,000 --> 01:09:18,320
Speaker 1: she's the editor. Okay, so my bee. I have no

1049
01:09:18,479 --> 01:09:22,160
Speaker 1: idea who Annie Taylor is. I don't know where I

1050
01:09:22,200 --> 01:09:27,400
Speaker 1: got that information. Sorry. Oh wait, film editing by this

1051
01:09:27,479 --> 01:09:34,639
Speaker 1: is on IMDb. Annie Taylor, That's where I got that mystery. Mystery.

1052
01:09:34,880 --> 01:09:39,360
Speaker 1: Maybe Annie Taylor is Ryl Dunier's pseudonym for when she's

1053
01:09:39,400 --> 01:09:44,960
Speaker 1: an editing pseudonym. Uh. Yeah that. I thought that the

1054
01:09:45,400 --> 01:09:48,559
Speaker 1: like that the sex scene was enjoyable, and it also

1055
01:09:48,680 --> 01:09:52,240
Speaker 1: felt I don't know what makes a sex scene nineties,

1056
01:09:52,280 --> 01:09:56,040
Speaker 1: but the sex scene also felt very nineties, where it's

1057
01:09:56,120 --> 01:09:58,320
Speaker 1: like a lot of like tight shots and like it

1058
01:09:58,400 --> 01:10:00,479
Speaker 1: just felt like it was like being cut around, kind

1059
01:10:00,479 --> 01:10:03,400
Speaker 1: of like a music video and you're like, yeah, the

1060
01:10:03,479 --> 01:10:06,400
Speaker 1: music too. I can't remember exactly what song is playing,

1061
01:10:06,439 --> 01:10:09,280
Speaker 1: but I was like this, it's a time machine and

1062
01:10:09,320 --> 01:10:14,880
Speaker 1: I am transported right back to the mid nineties. Um,

1063
01:10:14,920 --> 01:10:17,360
Speaker 1: does anyone have anything else they want to talk about?

1064
01:10:18,400 --> 01:10:23,839
Speaker 1: I think that was it. Yeah. Oh does the movie

1065
01:10:23,960 --> 01:10:31,719
Speaker 1: pass the Bechtel test? Yeah, of course, almost the whole time, Yes,

1066
01:10:32,880 --> 01:10:36,680
Speaker 1: and also passes the Vito Russo test. Just want to

1067
01:10:36,720 --> 01:10:41,160
Speaker 1: give that a shout out. Also a number of other

1068
01:10:41,200 --> 01:10:46,519
Speaker 1: tests like the DuVernay test. So, uh, we've got our

1069
01:10:46,600 --> 01:10:51,519
Speaker 1: nipple scale, which is zero to five nipples based on

1070
01:10:52,000 --> 01:10:55,960
Speaker 1: how the movie fares looking at it through an intersectional

1071
01:10:56,040 --> 01:11:01,040
Speaker 1: feminist lens, and you know, I would probably give this,

1072
01:11:01,960 --> 01:11:06,479
Speaker 1: I mean it's nearly a five, if not a five.

1073
01:11:06,760 --> 01:11:12,680
Speaker 1: I mean it's a movie about representation and a lack

1074
01:11:12,760 --> 01:11:16,240
Speaker 1: thereof and then a like correcting of that. But it's

1075
01:11:16,240 --> 01:11:18,479
Speaker 1: like basically Cheryl Dune' is like, well, there are no

1076
01:11:18,520 --> 01:11:23,080
Speaker 1: movies about black lesbians. Well guess what now there is.

1077
01:11:23,560 --> 01:11:27,400
Speaker 1: You're welcome. And yeah, it's just it explores some really

1078
01:11:27,479 --> 01:11:32,840
Speaker 1: interesting themes that it poses some interesting questions. Uh. There

1079
01:11:32,960 --> 01:11:39,280
Speaker 1: there's representation that we rarely see that we weren't seeing

1080
01:11:39,439 --> 01:11:43,880
Speaker 1: prior to this. We're that we're still barely seeing, especially

1081
01:11:43,960 --> 01:11:47,680
Speaker 1: in mainstream because you know, even though this is a

1082
01:11:47,680 --> 01:11:52,240
Speaker 1: pivotal movie in like new queer cinema, in black cinema,

1083
01:11:52,920 --> 01:11:55,240
Speaker 1: most people still haven't seen this movie. Like it is

1084
01:11:55,280 --> 01:11:59,000
Speaker 1: not something that a wide audience has seen or maybe

1085
01:11:59,080 --> 01:12:02,320
Speaker 1: even knows about. Yeah, that's also what makes it a

1086
01:12:02,360 --> 01:12:05,400
Speaker 1: bit sad to me because like if you look at

1087
01:12:05,520 --> 01:12:08,599
Speaker 1: least for like black queer cinema, that isn't like there

1088
01:12:08,760 --> 01:12:11,680
Speaker 1: use some significant films that I've come out, but like

1089
01:12:11,720 --> 01:12:16,200
Speaker 1: in terms of like black lesbians, there isn't that much more.

1090
01:12:16,840 --> 01:12:22,160
Speaker 1: And it was five years ago, right, Yeah. It was

1091
01:12:22,280 --> 01:12:25,400
Speaker 1: kind of discouraging when when we because it's like we

1092
01:12:25,439 --> 01:12:29,000
Speaker 1: wanted to cover more black queer cinema and the fact

1093
01:12:29,080 --> 01:12:31,080
Speaker 1: that it was like the what you know this is

1094
01:12:31,120 --> 01:12:33,479
Speaker 1: I feel like it's presented kind of as as The Pinnacle,

1095
01:12:34,240 --> 01:12:37,120
Speaker 1: and yeah, it happened, you know, when we were all

1096
01:12:37,400 --> 01:12:41,880
Speaker 1: children like and I don't know it. I'm glad that

1097
01:12:41,960 --> 01:12:44,240
Speaker 1: some progress has been made, but it's like, well, we

1098
01:12:44,320 --> 01:12:46,760
Speaker 1: have a problem here if if the you know, if

1099
01:12:46,800 --> 01:12:53,160
Speaker 1: The Pinnacle was in six Yeah, hopefully listeners who are

1100
01:12:53,200 --> 01:12:56,240
Speaker 1: listening to this episode, if you haven't already seen it,

1101
01:12:56,560 --> 01:12:59,920
Speaker 1: go see it rented. You know, it might also be

1102
01:13:00,000 --> 01:13:03,599
Speaker 1: available on canopy, like your your library. I'm not sure,

1103
01:13:03,640 --> 01:13:05,800
Speaker 1: but I think it is. I just I can't find

1104
01:13:05,800 --> 01:13:11,559
Speaker 1: my library card. Either way, it is accessible, so check

1105
01:13:11,600 --> 01:13:15,280
Speaker 1: it out. Tell your friends about it because it's well,

1106
01:13:15,320 --> 01:13:17,760
Speaker 1: I mean, we talked about gate keeping a little bit,

1107
01:13:18,560 --> 01:13:21,439
Speaker 1: which is like something that Cheryl the character comes up

1108
01:13:21,479 --> 01:13:25,479
Speaker 1: against a lot in trying to access information. There's also

1109
01:13:25,640 --> 01:13:31,160
Speaker 1: like this pretty major Hollywood gate keeping thing where it's

1110
01:13:31,200 --> 01:13:34,639
Speaker 1: hard for anyone to get a movie out there and

1111
01:13:34,760 --> 01:13:37,800
Speaker 1: in front of a wide audience, but especially if you're

1112
01:13:38,720 --> 01:13:41,479
Speaker 1: a black woman, if you're a queer woman, if you're

1113
01:13:41,520 --> 01:13:44,320
Speaker 1: a queer black woman, like you know, the odds just

1114
01:13:44,400 --> 01:13:48,160
Speaker 1: keep getting stacked more and more against you, just in

1115
01:13:48,280 --> 01:13:52,479
Speaker 1: terms of like we Cheryl Danier like particularly like the

1116
01:13:52,520 --> 01:13:56,679
Speaker 1: way she navigates the low budget of this movie so well,

1117
01:13:56,760 --> 01:13:59,280
Speaker 1: to the point where it seems very intentional and like,

1118
01:14:00,160 --> 01:14:01,920
Speaker 1: but the fact that she had to do that at all.

1119
01:14:02,000 --> 01:14:03,720
Speaker 1: I think this came up last year when we were

1120
01:14:03,800 --> 01:14:07,000
Speaker 1: covering A Girl Walks Home Alone at night, where especially

1121
01:14:07,000 --> 01:14:11,360
Speaker 1: when there's women of color directing stories that that center

1122
01:14:11,439 --> 01:14:14,240
Speaker 1: women of color, it's you always heard these stories about

1123
01:14:14,280 --> 01:14:16,599
Speaker 1: like they had to scrape together the money to get

1124
01:14:16,600 --> 01:14:19,519
Speaker 1: this made. It was really hard to find distribution. And

1125
01:14:19,960 --> 01:14:23,479
Speaker 1: even now The Watermelon Woman is more widely accessible, but

1126
01:14:23,479 --> 01:14:25,400
Speaker 1: that it doesn't seem like that was the case for

1127
01:14:25,520 --> 01:14:28,519
Speaker 1: a long time for like the early history of this movie.

1128
01:14:28,640 --> 01:14:33,200
Speaker 1: And meanwhile, you know, you hear like stories about white

1129
01:14:33,240 --> 01:14:36,599
Speaker 1: male auteurs who barely know how to hold a camera,

1130
01:14:36,640 --> 01:14:39,080
Speaker 1: and they're like, I have faith in him, He'll figure

1131
01:14:39,120 --> 01:14:42,240
Speaker 1: it out. Like it's here's here's a hundred million dollars

1132
01:14:42,320 --> 01:14:47,200
Speaker 1: to make your movie, like right, So the odds are stacked,

1133
01:14:47,280 --> 01:14:51,080
Speaker 1: were stacked against Cheryl Dounier, and yet she managed to

1134
01:14:51,120 --> 01:14:56,240
Speaker 1: make a really cool, funny movie that is extremely important

1135
01:14:56,520 --> 01:15:01,400
Speaker 1: and extremely pivotal. And for those reasons, I'll give it

1136
01:15:01,479 --> 01:15:04,600
Speaker 1: five nipples. This is this is rare on the on

1137
01:15:04,640 --> 01:15:09,120
Speaker 1: the show, we we do not often do this. So

1138
01:15:09,920 --> 01:15:14,280
Speaker 1: I'm excited to give the Watermelon woman five nipples and

1139
01:15:14,920 --> 01:15:21,000
Speaker 1: I'll distribute them to Cheryl tomorrow. I want to get

1140
01:15:21,240 --> 01:15:25,120
Speaker 1: what's her name, Yvette, who sings the terrible karaoke you know,

1141
01:15:25,479 --> 01:15:28,599
Speaker 1: she was just doing her best. I hope, I hope

1142
01:15:28,600 --> 01:15:34,000
Speaker 1: Evette finds love. If it finds a karaoke partner, she

1143
01:15:34,120 --> 01:15:41,080
Speaker 1: deserves it. I'll give one nipple to Faye Richards and

1144
01:15:41,280 --> 01:15:45,479
Speaker 1: all the women that she symbolizes, and I'll give my

1145
01:15:46,240 --> 01:15:48,280
Speaker 1: is that am I up to five nipples? Now? I

1146
01:15:48,280 --> 01:15:50,760
Speaker 1: don't know, I'll give I feel like I've got one

1147
01:15:50,840 --> 01:15:55,920
Speaker 1: more and June, yes, June gets my last nipple absolutely,

1148
01:15:56,840 --> 01:16:00,880
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's that's me. Yeah, meet I'll meet you

1149
01:16:00,920 --> 01:16:03,960
Speaker 1: at five. It's a rare pleasure. I think that there's

1150
01:16:04,120 --> 01:16:07,800
Speaker 1: there's definitely I mean, like we were talking throughout, it's

1151
01:16:07,840 --> 01:16:10,599
Speaker 1: like there's still just questions that I would want to

1152
01:16:10,680 --> 01:16:14,040
Speaker 1: hear Cheryl Dnier's perspective on, just in terms of like

1153
01:16:14,320 --> 01:16:17,880
Speaker 1: plot choices and character choices and and just like the

1154
01:16:17,880 --> 01:16:21,439
Speaker 1: themes that she really focuses on for this movie. But

1155
01:16:21,760 --> 01:16:25,000
Speaker 1: in terms of our show, it's like this movie is

1156
01:16:25,439 --> 01:16:28,920
Speaker 1: like firing on all cylinders, where, yeah, it's a movie

1157
01:16:28,920 --> 01:16:35,559
Speaker 1: about how representation affects people, it's about historical gatekeeping. It's

1158
01:16:35,600 --> 01:16:40,120
Speaker 1: also like a fun rob through Philadelphia in the nineties.

1159
01:16:40,320 --> 01:16:44,280
Speaker 1: Like it's just I wasn't like, I don't I don't know,

1160
01:16:44,320 --> 01:16:46,479
Speaker 1: I didn't know what to expect going into this movie.

1161
01:16:46,840 --> 01:16:51,800
Speaker 1: But having it be like this really light but fascinating

1162
01:16:52,240 --> 01:16:54,960
Speaker 1: nineties movie, and and it's cool that. I mean, Cheryl

1163
01:16:55,000 --> 01:16:58,160
Speaker 1: Dnier is very much still working. It seems like she's

1164
01:16:58,280 --> 01:17:02,959
Speaker 1: mostly working in TVD stays, but she directed an episode

1165
01:17:02,960 --> 01:17:06,040
Speaker 1: of Lovecraft Country last year All Rise, which I think

1166
01:17:06,120 --> 01:17:10,759
Speaker 1: was a court shop. She's been, she's she's directing, she's

1167
01:17:10,840 --> 01:17:18,200
Speaker 1: in there. She lives in Oakland. Yeah, and directed Sugar. Yeah,

1168
01:17:18,560 --> 01:17:21,280
Speaker 1: she's like I mean, and it's I'm I'm glad that

1169
01:17:21,320 --> 01:17:24,400
Speaker 1: the Watermelon Woman kind of launched her into this successful

1170
01:17:24,439 --> 01:17:28,040
Speaker 1: directing career. But I also like, why haven't we given

1171
01:17:28,040 --> 01:17:30,679
Speaker 1: her a hundred million dollars to make whatever the funk

1172
01:17:30,760 --> 01:17:34,240
Speaker 1: she wants? You know, like I think that it's worth,

1173
01:17:34,360 --> 01:17:38,240
Speaker 1: you know, scrutinizing these pipe these movie pipelines where you know,

1174
01:17:38,360 --> 01:17:41,600
Speaker 1: Cheryl Danyer is killing it and she's clearly, I mean,

1175
01:17:41,680 --> 01:17:44,360
Speaker 1: it seems like doing work that is important to her,

1176
01:17:44,439 --> 01:17:48,280
Speaker 1: and it's really good work. But it's like, why where

1177
01:17:48,360 --> 01:17:52,320
Speaker 1: is Cheryl Danyer's blank check? That is my question. But

1178
01:17:52,560 --> 01:17:55,360
Speaker 1: Eddie Ways, this movie is incredible. If you haven't seen it,

1179
01:17:55,520 --> 01:17:59,920
Speaker 1: highly recommend and watch it with friends. I can't wait

1180
01:18:00,120 --> 01:18:02,320
Speaker 1: to be able to watch movies with friends. This is

1181
01:18:02,360 --> 01:18:04,800
Speaker 1: like such a I don't know. It was so fun

1182
01:18:04,960 --> 01:18:07,799
Speaker 1: and I learned, I learned stuff, and usually I resent

1183
01:18:07,960 --> 01:18:11,080
Speaker 1: learning things in movies, but this made it just it

1184
01:18:11,160 --> 01:18:14,200
Speaker 1: went down easy, it was and I just I loved it.

1185
01:18:14,280 --> 01:18:18,360
Speaker 1: So I'll go five nips as well, two to Cheryl Danier,

1186
01:18:19,120 --> 01:18:25,639
Speaker 1: one to June, one to Faye, and one to I Forget.

1187
01:18:26,360 --> 01:18:29,920
Speaker 1: There was like a separate director or artist who like

1188
01:18:30,360 --> 01:18:34,679
Speaker 1: curated all the images of Faye Richards and I want

1189
01:18:34,680 --> 01:18:40,000
Speaker 1: to give my last nipple to her. Yes, yes, yes,

1190
01:18:40,080 --> 01:18:43,559
Speaker 1: she was a director of photography. Okay, wait thought so.

1191
01:18:44,160 --> 01:18:47,680
Speaker 1: I just love the thoroughness of creating this history of

1192
01:18:47,760 --> 01:18:51,840
Speaker 1: Fay Richards. And I saw through some research that that

1193
01:18:52,040 --> 01:18:54,479
Speaker 1: ended up becoming like an art exhibit that like went

1194
01:18:54,560 --> 01:18:58,080
Speaker 1: to Mocha, Like the history of this fictional character also

1195
01:18:58,120 --> 01:19:02,800
Speaker 1: has this entire like art exhibit built around her, and

1196
01:19:02,800 --> 01:19:06,360
Speaker 1: and it was also auctioned off to friends, and that's

1197
01:19:06,439 --> 01:19:10,360
Speaker 1: part of the film's budget. Actually, wow, wait, I didn't

1198
01:19:10,400 --> 01:19:12,960
Speaker 1: do that. Yeah. Yeah, they auctioned off some of the

1199
01:19:13,000 --> 01:19:16,920
Speaker 1: images and the money they got from that went to

1200
01:19:17,240 --> 01:19:22,040
Speaker 1: making the movie. So something we didn't mention, but I

1201
01:19:22,080 --> 01:19:25,519
Speaker 1: think that's quite significant. It's also like, um, I think

1202
01:19:25,520 --> 01:19:29,320
Speaker 1: with Tongues and Tied, it's the water women in Tones

1203
01:19:29,400 --> 01:19:32,400
Speaker 1: and Tired are the two movies that were funded with

1204
01:19:32,439 --> 01:19:36,719
Speaker 1: like public funding, and they were like a huge debate

1205
01:19:37,200 --> 01:19:41,240
Speaker 1: in Congress around like funding films and like conservatives being like, oh,

1206
01:19:41,360 --> 01:19:45,439
Speaker 1: like we're funding like this awful and like a natical

1207
01:19:45,640 --> 01:19:48,880
Speaker 1: and a moral stories and um, I think after that,

1208
01:19:49,120 --> 01:19:53,720
Speaker 1: like they completely restructured the way films were funded, and

1209
01:19:54,120 --> 01:19:58,120
Speaker 1: the specific pockets of money that made those two films

1210
01:19:58,160 --> 01:20:03,880
Speaker 1: possible were no longer accessible. Wow, I didn't know that. Yeah,

1211
01:20:03,960 --> 01:20:06,960
Speaker 1: but it's significant that they were discussed, Like thinking about

1212
01:20:07,160 --> 01:20:11,599
Speaker 1: films such as these being discussed in Congress and piecing

1213
01:20:11,640 --> 01:20:20,479
Speaker 1: off conservatives, which is always a pleasure. Exactly, Crystal, what

1214
01:20:20,479 --> 01:20:26,960
Speaker 1: what is your nipple rating of this movie? So I'm

1215
01:20:27,080 --> 01:20:31,160
Speaker 1: hesitating between four and five nipples, and I think I

1216
01:20:31,200 --> 01:20:36,200
Speaker 1: will stay with the hesitation, especially like I think there's

1217
01:20:36,240 --> 01:20:39,799
Speaker 1: something to be said about her mental health comes into

1218
01:20:40,160 --> 01:20:42,720
Speaker 1: and cand like like there are some jokes that are

1219
01:20:42,800 --> 01:20:49,080
Speaker 1: it like nineties, But I would give one nipple to

1220
01:20:49,640 --> 01:20:53,720
Speaker 1: share you Donnie as a director, one to share it

1221
01:20:53,840 --> 01:21:01,560
Speaker 1: Donnie as an actress, one to her, but one one

1222
01:21:02,240 --> 01:21:07,440
Speaker 1: to Tamara, who's like, I just love Tamara so funny,

1223
01:21:07,760 --> 01:21:11,439
Speaker 1: and the final one to June because it's just so

1224
01:21:11,600 --> 01:21:14,880
Speaker 1: nice to see all the black lastins on screen, and

1225
01:21:14,920 --> 01:21:17,639
Speaker 1: I hope we see more of that. Yeah. I think

1226
01:21:17,680 --> 01:21:22,719
Speaker 1: there's there's something around generations and like queerness that's really

1227
01:21:22,760 --> 01:21:28,120
Speaker 1: missing for me in filmography and seeing different generations of

1228
01:21:28,240 --> 01:21:32,479
Speaker 1: queer people together on screen. Yeah, there's even I think

1229
01:21:32,520 --> 01:21:39,439
Speaker 1: it's in June's voiceover towards the end, she's saying to Cheryl,

1230
01:21:40,720 --> 01:21:43,519
Speaker 1: you know, I just I hope you realize that like

1231
01:21:44,800 --> 01:21:48,840
Speaker 1: Faye was a part of basically like a movement that

1232
01:21:48,920 --> 01:21:53,360
Speaker 1: allows your lifestyle to be possible, like she we like

1233
01:21:53,479 --> 01:21:58,640
Speaker 1: our generation paved the way for you and Cheryl, I

1234
01:21:58,640 --> 01:22:01,680
Speaker 1: don't remember she responds to that directly, but just the

1235
01:22:01,720 --> 01:22:04,840
Speaker 1: fact that it's like in the movie and like that

1236
01:22:05,080 --> 01:22:10,879
Speaker 1: is put out there is something that um is important

1237
01:22:10,920 --> 01:22:15,360
Speaker 1: to remember. Yeah, well, Crystal, thank you so much for

1238
01:22:15,560 --> 01:22:22,759
Speaker 1: joining us and the pleasures all ours. Where can people

1239
01:22:22,960 --> 01:22:26,880
Speaker 1: follow you on social media? Is there anything you'd like

1240
01:22:26,960 --> 01:22:30,839
Speaker 1: to plug? I'm on Twitter and very active on Twitter

1241
01:22:32,240 --> 01:22:38,880
Speaker 1: at and I'm also on Instagram m Chrystal dotniqus nice

1242
01:22:39,120 --> 01:22:46,440
Speaker 1: and you can follow us at Bechtel Cast on Twitter, Instagram.

1243
01:22:46,880 --> 01:22:51,760
Speaker 1: We have a Patreon a k a Matreon at patreon

1244
01:22:51,800 --> 01:22:55,120
Speaker 1: dot com, slash Spectel Cast. Yeah, there's over I think

1245
01:22:55,160 --> 01:22:57,840
Speaker 1: there's almost like a hundred bonus episodes there. If you

1246
01:22:58,000 --> 01:23:00,120
Speaker 1: have run out of stuff on the main fade, We're

1247
01:23:00,160 --> 01:23:06,680
Speaker 1: going to cover Stewart Little this month for reasons, uh

1248
01:23:06,720 --> 01:23:11,200
Speaker 1: and then our t public dot com slash the Bechtel

1249
01:23:11,240 --> 01:23:17,160
Speaker 1: Cast for all of your merchandising needs. Other than that,

1250
01:23:18,000 --> 01:23:26,759
Speaker 1: should we all go to karaoke? Bye bye