1 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. I'm Tom Keene. Daily 2 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: we bring you insight from the best in economics, finance, investment, 3 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: and international relations. Find Bloomberg Surveillance on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, 4 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot Com, and of course on the Bloomberg James Paulson. 5 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: Where this Jim Paulson of luth Old Weeding Capital Management, 6 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:34,200 Speaker 1: as we lay out on a Friday, the path to February, 7 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:38,959 Speaker 1: and of course the distractions of a short squeeze. Jim Paulson, 8 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: I would respectfully suggest you've seen this before. What is 9 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: different this time with Robin Hood versus the other short 10 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: squeezes you and I have enjoyed well. I Um, I 11 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: think that a couple of things Tom hit me. One. 12 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 1: One is I think it's another illustration of the impact 13 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: that technology is having, the the power that technology can 14 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: deliver to a small quadre of people. Were certainly seeing 15 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 1: that in companies like Facebook or Twitter or even people 16 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 1: on those platforms on the influence they can have, and 17 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 1: now we're seeing it in the financial markets. UM. I 18 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:22,959 Speaker 1: think I think that's sort of interesting. The social movement 19 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 1: aspect is of course unique. Uh, this is less a 20 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: uh short squeeze and there is an angry crowd in 21 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:36,119 Speaker 1: some regard and UM, I think more to the point, 22 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: it just it seems like it's a destabilizing force, more 23 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 1: so than in past short squeezes where there's this just 24 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: seems like you you can colude with a with a 25 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: with the redding UH platform UH and and act in 26 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 1: unison UH to target a specific security and move its 27 00:01:57,360 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: price wherever you want to with just a little bit 28 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 1: of leverage. UM. I think that's a destabilizing force. I 29 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: think it's UH to me, sounds a lot like market 30 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 1: manipulation and probably needs to be regulated. The last point 31 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:15,839 Speaker 1: I'd say about it is, you know, like the other ones, 32 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: this is going to end badly and probably um eventually 33 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 1: greed is going to set in, and even among the 34 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: young um robin hood traders, they're going to start to 35 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: take some profits. And when that happens, the thing's gonna 36 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:33,839 Speaker 1: conravel like they have in the past and probably heard 37 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: a lot of the same investors. We'll let the lawyers 38 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:38,240 Speaker 1: deal with the legal issues, Jim, I do want to 39 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: get your view on whether we're discussing this the right way. 40 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 1: We often have this conversation. Everyone is over the last 41 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:49,239 Speaker 1: week because them versus them, the institutions versus reads out Jim, 42 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: don't you think that's kind of naive to believe that 43 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:55,080 Speaker 1: there are institutional traders on the Reddit boats doing exactly 44 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 1: the same thing, squeezing out the big shorts. I totally agree. 45 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: I totally agree that is it's probably happening. More is 46 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:05,359 Speaker 1: the price of moves. I come back to John that 47 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 1: whoever is doing it, I think this is market manipulation. 48 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: I think it's a destabilizing force. And you know, think 49 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: about the Federal Reserve. The Federal Reserve in this country 50 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: spent most of last year, a great bulk of the 51 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 1: year re establishing functionality and liquidity UH and stabilization to 52 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: the financial markets. That was a big part of what 53 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 1: they did all year long. And now we're we're allowing 54 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 1: something that's destabilizing the financial markets and setting up the 55 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: situation to harm a number of of of investors, whether 56 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 1: they're big or small UH down the road. And I 57 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: think it's it's sort of hypocritical to do what we 58 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: did last year to try to stabilize the financial markets 59 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: to save the economy and assistant and allowing this to 60 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 1: go on unless That's where I'm at. I don't I'm 61 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: still understanding a lot of this do to play Devil's advocate. 62 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: People would say, Federal Reserve perhaps stabilize the market for 63 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 1: the people in the market, which includes the big Wall 64 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: Street players and the wealthiest individuals. And that seems to 65 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 1: be the tone that the tone the trope among a 66 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 1: lot of these Robin Hood investors. I mean, what do 67 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 1: you say to people who say that Wall Street has 68 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: lost the moral high ground here based on the idea 69 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:23,039 Speaker 1: that there has been a sort of rejiggering in terms 70 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: of the fundamentals and the price action based on what 71 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 1: policy has done. Well, I'm not sure Wall Streets ever 72 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 1: had the high moral ground, you know, if it starts 73 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:37,160 Speaker 1: the imagination. But I gotta tell you, if if we 74 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 1: uh you go back to any crisis we've had, and 75 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:45,160 Speaker 1: if you don't re establish uh functioning Wall Street and stability, 76 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: it's disasters for the economy. And and so you know 77 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:51,479 Speaker 1: the result of that is if you if you don't 78 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: do that, I think the Federal Reserve would say that 79 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,280 Speaker 1: too at LESA. Then if if you don't re establish 80 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 1: a functioning Wall Street, it will be disastrous for the economy, 81 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 1: which means it will be disasters for everyone. So when 82 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: you say Wall Street, you save the economy there, they're 83 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: not a separate deal, and I think that's important to understand. 84 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 1: I think one great thing that's coming out of the 85 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: Redding situation here, which is a wonderful thing for the future, 86 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: is that we're in enticing more and more young investors 87 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 1: at a younger age millennials rather than waiting to four 88 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 1: or fifty to start to learn to invest in the 89 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:31,840 Speaker 1: markets and getting involved in the marketplace. I think that's 90 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: a huge success. It will be very beneficial down the 91 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: road in terms of general wealth creation, in terms of 92 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 1: greater liquid markets over time and greater participation by more. 93 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:48,359 Speaker 1: But I'll tell you what if we damage everybody uh 94 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 1: while they're just starting to get involved with this, that 95 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: will set that trend back. Jim, it's kind an ups 96 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 1: Jim Poston. At least wait and always take shot it 97 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: with Jim. Jim, thank you say thanks for having right 98 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:06,600 Speaker 1: now from the International Monetary Phone. It was my great 99 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 1: honor to speak to the managing director, Krystelina georg gave 100 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: a few days ago. She stops and she listens to 101 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 1: Vitr Gaspar He is the I m F Director of 102 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: Fiscal Affairs, always an important position, and evermore so in 103 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: the tumult of this pandemic. Vitor Carmen Reinhardt wrote a 104 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: paper this summer, my paper of the summer with a 105 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: foreign affairs magazine on the pandemic depression. How is your 106 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 1: fiscal world given the attempt to get through this pandemic 107 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 1: right now? So a pandemic by nature, uh tom is 108 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: a health crisis at this point in time. The chief 109 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 1: economist of the I m F as emphasized that we 110 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 1: face a tremendous amount of uncertainty. That it is a 111 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 1: race between a mutating virus and the vaccines. The virus 112 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 1: got a headstart and in the North Atlantic area the 113 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 1: cases have been very strong in this period of fall winter. 114 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: It is crucial that the rollout of vaccines takes place 115 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: very quickly, and that's a global process. I like to 116 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: say that the virus is not defeated anywhere before it 117 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: is defeated everywhere, and so ensuring global access to vaccines 118 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 1: at low cost is crucial to be the pandemic. Dr 119 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 1: Gorey gave us spoke of the new inequality from this 120 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: natural disaster. Tell us what you and your team have 121 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: learned about the new inequality and the distribution of stimulus. 122 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 1: Are we still are we providing fiscal stimulus to too 123 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: many of the halves and not enough of the have nots. 124 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: There are two very important dimensions of that inequality that 125 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: I would like to stress. One is uh divergencies across 126 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 1: countries in terms of economic prospects, in terms of supporting 127 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 1: the economy. At one extreme, you have a country like 128 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 1: the US that has ample fiscal space that can provide 129 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: relief to the economy, that has been providing relief and 130 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: more is in the pipeline, and looking forward, the United 131 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 1: States by twenty two will be very close to its 132 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: pre COVID nineteen growth path, in particular if something like 133 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: the Biden relief plan gets through the political process in Congress. 134 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: At the other extreme, we have low income countries that 135 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:10,599 Speaker 1: basically had to tackle the emergency of COVID nineteen by 136 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:16,560 Speaker 1: tax by changing the composition of public spending so that 137 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: urgent needs in health could be tackled. Support to business 138 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: and firms could be given, but the financial envelope was 139 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:28,680 Speaker 1: constrained by the financial capacity of the countries. We have 140 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: also very important aspects of inequality across people, and you 141 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 1: have divergencies in terms of education. People that have more 142 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 1: than a college degree have been much less affected than 143 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: people that lacked. This pandemic as affected women and young 144 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: workers UH much more than other segments. I worry very 145 00:09:56,040 --> 00:10:04,079 Speaker 1: much about the children from favored families who are suffering 146 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 1: in their education prospects given the restrictions imposed by social 147 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: distancing so many people shadows concerns. I just want to 148 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 1: finish on one brief question, if I may, do you 149 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 1: think that to GDP right shows is still useful, that 150 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:23,839 Speaker 1: to GDP ratios are useful. They're an indicator that we 151 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: do look at. It's one of the many indicators that 152 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 1: one needs to follow, UH in order to assess public 153 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 1: finance sustainability. It's very important that fiscal policy is able 154 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 1: to act forcefully in case of need, and we have 155 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 1: seen how powerful fiscal policy can be in the context 156 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:48,680 Speaker 1: of COVID nineteen, and in order to have room to 157 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: maneuver to respond so forcefully as has been the case 158 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty in the face of COVID nineteen, fiscal 159 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: buffers will eventually have to be reconstituted. But at this 160 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:07,439 Speaker 1: point in time, the priority is to UH spend on vaccines, 161 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: testing and healthcare support resources, to help schools and college 162 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: to reopen safely, helping the poor and most vulnerable families, 163 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 1: help the unemployment and UH the unemployed, and make sure 164 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 1: that there are no bottlenecks on crucial services that people 165 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:34,679 Speaker 1: need in these very un certain times of pandemic. They 166 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 1: took right to catch up in times valuable. We appreciate it. 167 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: Thank you for spending some of it on this program. 168 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 1: Video Gasba that of the International Monetary Fund right now, 169 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 1: not in the vaccine, but the mystery of what to 170 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 1: do with the vaccine in vaccinations Having Tourism joins us 171 00:11:55,080 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: from Duke Margolis at Duke University. Having I'm I'm absolute 172 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: lutely stunned, and I went through it myself. I had 173 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: the vaccine of what a manufacturing processes is. You are 174 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: expert at the vaccine the virus. At the state level, 175 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 1: why did West Virginia, why did the Dakotas succeed and 176 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 1: others have struggled? Yeah, great to be here with you, 177 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 1: Tom So, there's a lot of different reasons why you 178 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: see a couple of states at the head of the list, 179 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 1: and it's not predictable based on any common theme, you know, size, 180 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 1: you know, um, political attributes, etcetera. So there's a couple 181 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 1: of things I think that led to the early success 182 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 1: for some states. And really I will caveat I think 183 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 1: we're going to see a lot of moving around with 184 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 1: the figures as things move along. But some states were 185 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: just faster out of the gate. Um. You know, in 186 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: West Virginia, for example, they chose to do their own 187 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: thing with long term care pharmacies. So the long term 188 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: care facilities that you know, most states partner with CBS 189 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 1: and Walgreens UM, and those pharmacies were responsible for getting 190 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 1: the vaccine into the arms of you know, residents and 191 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:10,680 Speaker 1: staff at long term care facilities. In West Virginia, CBS 192 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:14,119 Speaker 1: and Walgreens does not have a big footprint, so they decided, 193 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 1: you know, um, we know there's not a lot of 194 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 1: staff of those pharmacies. Now, given how quickly we need 195 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: to get the vaccines into the arms of people, we're 196 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:22,439 Speaker 1: going to take control of that and we're going to 197 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 1: partner with our community pharmacies and community partners and get 198 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:29,839 Speaker 1: it done. And and they do credit that initial, you know, quick, 199 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 1: quick speed to that. That's the smartest thing I've heard today, Honey. 200 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: What's so important is Marianna Masacata was on three hours earlier. 201 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: Were there a great new book, and she said exactly 202 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: the same thing. There's a point where government has to 203 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 1: step in. Is that's what's needed in February is more 204 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:52,199 Speaker 1: government action. Well, I just also want to say there 205 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:54,320 Speaker 1: were some states where CBS and Walgreen's had a great 206 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:57,839 Speaker 1: footprint and they were very effective in getting people vaccinated. Now, 207 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 1: so there really is this is this is um. You know, 208 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 1: I've done state work for a long time. There's variations 209 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 1: across the states, and it matters. You have to look 210 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: at what that state um, how it operates, you know, 211 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 1: what it's UM staffing looks like, and how you know 212 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: the people are are going to be willing to get 213 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:16,679 Speaker 1: the back feet Now on federal governments stepping in, I think, 214 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: you know, we do need some national leadership on this, 215 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 1: and I think states will want national realship on this. 216 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 1: Funding is going to be really helpful thinking about a 217 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: coordinated plan across the states. But I caveat that to say, 218 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 1: UM also recognizing and I know the Biden Harris administrations 219 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 1: is very in tune with this looking at what each 220 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 1: state needs. Because in one state, you know, you're gonna 221 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 1: need some National Guard, UM, you know, some federal sites 222 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 1: to be set up in rural areas and really help 223 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: the state supplement what they're already doing. While other states 224 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 1: have enough vaccinators and they don't need that, they need 225 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: other kinds of support. So you know, it's really important 226 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: to look at how each state is operating and what 227 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 1: it really needs. Hey me, you're talking about financing this effort, 228 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 1: and that's one bipartist an agreement in Washington, d C. 229 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 1: That financing of the vaccination schedule will be very good 230 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: for the nation. Can you give us a sense just 231 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 1: to get a greater appreciation of the complication of the 232 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: rollout where the money is most heavily needed going forward 233 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: in order to facilitate this. Yeah, So a number of states, 234 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: in order to start speeding up the process UM have 235 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 1: started setting up mass vaccination sites, which requires a lot 236 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 1: of different types of partnership. So that's one area I 237 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: think continued resources will be needed. I also think we 238 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 1: can't forget about populations that are harder to reach and 239 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: that are in like places like rural areas where mobile 240 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 1: sites um, you know, or community sites which will be 241 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 1: smaller but still will need to be set up also 242 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 1: need also will be needed. I also think, you know, 243 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 1: this is a this is a complicated effort that's at 244 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 1: the federal level, the state level, and the local level, 245 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 1: and the local level really matters, so making sure states 246 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 1: have funding to then partner with local endies, local government, 247 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 1: community groups, etcetera. I think it's also important because we 248 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 1: have to get people to not only trust and believe 249 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 1: in the vaccine, but also the process by which to 250 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 1: get access to it. Meanwhile, just today, hey man, I'd 251 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: love to just wrap up with the news of the day, 252 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 1: which is that J and J came out with the 253 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: data for the single dose vaccine. It was not as 254 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: stunning as some of the other mRNA vaccinations, however, still 255 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: very positive. How much does this accelerate the timeline for 256 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: vaccinating I think, um, we are all hopeful across the 257 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: country that they're going to be more options for vaccines. 258 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: We have to get three million people vaccinated and we 259 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: are not on pace for that, um and the states 260 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 1: don't have the supply for that. So we absolutely need 261 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 1: new candidates to come in the door. UM. I do 262 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: think there are concerns UM in the public and it 263 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: will I think will continue be more widespread about the 264 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 1: strains in the UK and South Africa. I think we've 265 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: seen initial evidence that for the South African strains these 266 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 1: vaccines are are not quite as effective. I think more 267 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 1: evidence is needed, UM, but we still need more options 268 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,360 Speaker 1: for people to get vaccinated. Amy, thank you so much, 269 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:07,920 Speaker 1: greatly appreciated. Hammy Charson with Duke my goals today their 270 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 1: Center for Health Policy. The state issue here going forward 271 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 1: is going to be extraordinary. We get lucky. It's okay 272 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 1: three months out, six months out to book Marianna Masaicado 273 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 1: to beat up on our new book Mission Economy, but 274 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 1: it's far more important to speak with u CEL professor 275 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 1: about the moment in hand as well, because the moment 276 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: in hand is in the Mission Economy. It's about the 277 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 1: new rules and the myths of capitalism. Professor Mascato, you 278 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 1: were my book of the Year a couple of years ago. 279 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 1: I haven't really looked at Mission Economy yet, but thrilled 280 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 1: you've got a new book out. I want you to 281 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: sit in London wherever you are and comment on how 282 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 1: you observed game stop comment on this clash of technology 283 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 1: with a traditional process of capital is um Well, I mean, 284 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 1: you know, let's broaden the gaze of it. Right. We've 285 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,200 Speaker 1: got tech, we have the digital platforms that we're talking about, 286 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 1: we have climate change, we have the health pandemic. What 287 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:12,959 Speaker 1: they all have in common is that we need to 288 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 1: govern the process in the common interest. And what's you know, 289 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 1: the common theme in my different books would you always 290 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: get me on for which is wonderful is that unless 291 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:25,399 Speaker 1: we actually know how to shape markets as opposed to 292 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 1: constantly just fixed market failures in any of these areas, 293 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 1: we get it wrong. And I do think the COVID moment, 294 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: where we have the digital divide, where we have the 295 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 1: health pandemic, where this particular crisis is sitting on top 296 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,120 Speaker 1: of a climate crisis, we just have to go back 297 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: to first principles. And that's really what the book is about. 298 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 1: What I want to get to that in one moment, 299 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: I want to talk about something in your book, serendipity 300 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:52,880 Speaker 1: and collaboration. We're seeing serendipity. We're seeing collaboration now by 301 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: smart young people sitting on couches saying to hedge funds 302 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: forget about it. We make the rules. How laborative is 303 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: this new technology, whether it's a crisis like game stop, 304 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:07,640 Speaker 1: or it's to the broader world economy that you look 305 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:11,159 Speaker 1: at well, I mean, you know, when I say go 306 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: back to first principles, we should also ask where does 307 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 1: this technology even come from in the first place. And 308 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: that was kind of two books ago in The Entrepreneurial State, 309 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 1: where I talked about how everything that makes our iPhone 310 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 1: smart and not stupid, from the Internet, GPS, touch screen, 311 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: syrian I could go on, was all actually government financed. Right, 312 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: So you know what happens then when this technology and 313 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 1: the algorithms underlying them are actually increasingly also about extracting 314 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: value and not creating value. But even more so, what 315 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 1: does it mean to truly have a public private partnership, 316 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 1: a symbiotic mutualistic partnership and not a parasitic partnership in 317 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: these different spaces? And that's why the moon landing is 318 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: so amazing. There is huge amounts of private sector innovation 319 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 1: and investment from companies like Honeywell, General Electric, Motor Role 320 00:19:57,119 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 1: up course, large state funding from NASA and other public entities, 321 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: but they were going after a common project. So the 322 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:07,159 Speaker 1: real question is what is the common project underlying you 323 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: know today's news. Yeah, so what is that common project? Mariana? 324 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 1: I mean, we're fighting climate change where you know everything 325 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 1: we're doing, right, but what should it be because everything 326 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 1: we're doing is also under the president, you know, the 327 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:22,640 Speaker 1: presence of the capitalism that we know. Well, first of all, 328 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: let's not forget there's different ways of doing capitalism. I 329 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 1: gave a talk this past Monday at the World Economic 330 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:31,200 Speaker 1: Forum where you and I last year were together physically 331 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: in Switzerland. This year we're all zooming in and you 332 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 1: know all the talk again it is about stakeholder capitalism. Now, 333 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 1: if we properly had stakeholder capitalism and not just capitalism 334 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:45,640 Speaker 1: maximizing shareholder value and kind of gaming the system, then 335 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 1: that would be a very different conversation, whether we're talking 336 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: about digital platforms, health or climate. So we need to 337 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 1: remember first of all that there's different experiences in the world. 338 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: Stakeholder capitalism is practice, has been practiced in certain companies 339 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 1: in certain parts of the world. So we need to 340 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,399 Speaker 1: actually learn from those experiences and walk the talk. And 341 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 1: there's no better place, I think right now than the 342 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 1: vaccine to talk about that, because it's not enough to 343 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 1: have you know, Fiser, the National Institutes of Health, which 344 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 1: is public money moderna Oxford University, you know, investing in something. 345 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: The question is how do we then govern it for purpose? 346 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:21,680 Speaker 1: And that's really what the moon Shop book is about, 347 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,360 Speaker 1: which is what is the common purpose with the vaccine? 348 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:26,399 Speaker 1: It's not just to get a vaccine, it's to make 349 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:30,359 Speaker 1: sure everyone gets vaccinated. Right, Marianna has okay, But if 350 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: you look at the Commission, they can't even have access 351 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: to the vaccines because you know, they started too late. 352 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 1: So where do you started actually changing so that you 353 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 1: create the system that you're seeing, which is you know, 354 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: mission critical, you achieve the goal that you set out right, 355 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,920 Speaker 1: So you know, I think we're bringing in different issues 356 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:49,640 Speaker 1: here which are all related. So it's a good thing. 357 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 1: But one issue is also the capacity and the capability 358 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 1: on the ground organizationally, and whether we're talking about the 359 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,120 Speaker 1: European Commission or the UK government, which is where I'm 360 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 1: sitting here. In the UK has outsourced its capability and 361 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,439 Speaker 1: its capacity so much to the private sector that a 362 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago, a Tory Lord Agnew said that 363 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: the government had become infantilized. It's such an interesting word. 364 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 1: I started to use that. Uh. You know, by outsourcing 365 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:18,199 Speaker 1: your brain, you get infantilized. You lose your capability and 366 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 1: capacity to manage anything, whether it's Brexit or COVID. So 367 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,399 Speaker 1: instead of just kind of taking the status quo, so 368 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 1: say the European Commission getting in there too late, the 369 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,679 Speaker 1: question is going forwards. How can we actually govern and 370 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 1: shape and co create markets and such a way to 371 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 1: achieve the goals we need, which is inclusive growth, sustainable growth. 372 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: And I do think at the center of the COVID 373 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,359 Speaker 1: recovery scheme, and you know we all are talking about 374 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 1: building back better has to be green growth. And this 375 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 1: is where the European Commission has gotten it right, more 376 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 1: so I think than the US, even more so than China. 377 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 1: Which is the current European recovery scheme, which is close 378 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 1: to a trillion is conditional. No longer on austerity, which 379 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: is the conditions that we set in the financial crisis 380 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 1: for the recovery scheme, but on investment, investment around digital 381 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:07,160 Speaker 1: and climate. And then there's a separate pot for help. Marianna, 382 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 1: you have a phrase that is absolutely spectacular in folks 383 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 1: if I was sitting in a happy valley right now 384 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: on the deck with friends seeing this would be my 385 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:19,919 Speaker 1: title for this year's Davos. It is a shaping, not 386 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:26,120 Speaker 1: fixing Davos. Marianna. That is absolutely brilliant. This describes so 387 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 1: much of what I and you know, Marianna hate the 388 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: phrase thought leaders and all that other malarkey. This is 389 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: so so so true. They're trying to shape the message 390 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 1: and not fix it. Discuss that well in some ways, 391 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 1: I guess, I'm so. I'm not sure what you've just said, 392 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: but what I usually say is that we should stop 393 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,399 Speaker 1: just fixing market failures, you know, actually waiting for the 394 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:51,200 Speaker 1: martin the market to mess up before policy comes in. 395 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:53,479 Speaker 1: We need a different type of policy, and we need 396 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: a different type of public private partnership that co creates 397 00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: and shapes markets to deliver the outcomes we actually need. 398 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 1: And that requires fundamentally different partnership. Literally a new contract, 399 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 1: and I do you know, I'm not a big fan 400 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,400 Speaker 1: of getting lawyers involved, but I really want to starting 401 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 1: of contracts, the procurement contracts, the grants and the loans, 402 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 1: if we could embed within them a common purpose like 403 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,160 Speaker 1: had because that was embedded within the structure of how 404 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 1: NASA collaborated with the different companies, we would have a 405 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 1: very different outcome today in health and also around um Yeah, sorry, Marianna, 406 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:32,200 Speaker 1: take it narrow. Should Gary Gensler with the Biden administration 407 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:36,919 Speaker 1: be more proactive about fixing and not shaping Wall Street 408 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:41,639 Speaker 1: given the crisis it's in this Friday morning? Well, I 409 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:43,679 Speaker 1: mean the big you know, the big issue there is 410 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,639 Speaker 1: what is the relationship between finance and the real economy. 411 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,439 Speaker 1: You know, most of the global finance actually ends up 412 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 1: back in the financial sector in the UK, something like 413 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,880 Speaker 1: only twenty of finance even goes into the real economy. Now, 414 00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 1: once it goes into the real economy, how can we 415 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 1: make sure it actually helps to steer our system in 416 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 1: fundamentally different ways. Everyone talks about the green transition, Bidence 417 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:08,919 Speaker 1: talking again about the Green Deal, But finance has to 418 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: be part of that solution, and unfortunately we have lots 419 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 1: of short term finance. We have speculative finance, even venture capital, 420 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,119 Speaker 1: which in theory is like the better form of finance, 421 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 1: is very exit driven. That actually ended up really hurting 422 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 1: the biotechnology industry, which ended up with lots of product 423 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:26,479 Speaker 1: less I p O. S. We have to avoid that 424 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 1: currently with all the uh you know, innovation happening again 425 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 1: in space with you on Musk and clean tech, we 426 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 1: cannot have exit driven finance just trying to get a 427 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 1: return and really creating a max that we have to 428 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 1: then pick up. But it is a wonderful book on 429 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:45,639 Speaker 1: the mission economy, where Marianna Masicado straps a great triumph 430 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 1: of the Apollo program over to the challenges of capitalism 431 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 1: moving forward. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Surveillance podcast. 432 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 1: Subscribe and listen to interviews on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, or 433 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 1: whichever podcast platform you prefer. I'm on Twitter at Tom 434 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,199 Speaker 1: Keene before the podcast. You can always catch us worldwide. 435 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 1: I'm Bloomberg Radio.