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Speaker 1: Trust me? Do you trust me?

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Speaker 2: Right? Everly you wish to writ tr us.

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Speaker 1: This is the truth, the only truth.

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Speaker 3: If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't

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Speaker 3: welcome to trust me. The podcast about cults, extreme belief

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Speaker 3: and manipulation from two control freaks who've actually experienced it firsthand.

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Speaker 1: My name is low La Blanc.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Megan Elizabeth, and today our guest is Megan

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Speaker 3: Elizabeth Cox different Megan Elizabeth, former member of the Remnant

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Speaker 3: Fellowship and The Way Down Workshop, whom you may have

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Speaker 3: seen on the HBO docuseries The Way Down. Today, she

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Speaker 3: is going to talk to us about how her mother

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Speaker 3: joined Gwen Chamblain's Weight Loss Workshop through tapes in the

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Speaker 3: nineties and era obsessed with skinniness, How being skinny was

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Speaker 3: equated with being righteous and even the slightest overeating was

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Speaker 3: considered a distraction from God, What it was like actually

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Speaker 3: meeting Gwen Chamblain, and how the program evolved into a

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Speaker 3: full fledged church That's right.

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Speaker 2: Megan will tell us about the level of control the

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Speaker 2: church had over its members eating and even their thoughts.

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Speaker 2: Being forced a weigh herself during Bible study sessions, how

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Speaker 2: she drifted in and out of the church during dark

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Speaker 2: times in her life, and what made her finally realize

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Speaker 2: she needed to leave the group for good.

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Speaker 3: We've been wanting to talk to somebody who experienced Qwinn

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Speaker 3: Chamblain in the flesh for a long time, and I'm

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Speaker 3: so glad she came on to talk to us about it,

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Speaker 3: because what a time, what a group. Before we get

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Speaker 3: into it, Megan, what's your cultiest thing of the week?

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Speaker 2: Well, okay, this topic brought up in me a question

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Speaker 2: that I haven't asked you yet, But my cultiest thing

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Speaker 2: is going to be a question for you. Oh okay,

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Speaker 2: ozombic Okay. It is now taking away the morality of

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Speaker 2: Thinness that we've all projected. Yes, Gwen took it to

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Speaker 2: the extreme right, but everyone in America kind of did

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Speaker 2: and in the world. Yeah, yeah, Now that it's not

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Speaker 2: really a quote unquote discipline thing anymore, what is happening

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Speaker 2: to the cult of them? And what are we gonna

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Speaker 2: see morally? I'm assuming we'll just see a lot more

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Speaker 2: thun people. But what will the moral judgments about Thinness

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Speaker 2: evolve into when it no longer requires any discipline?

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Speaker 3: That is such a good question, my question. That's interesting,

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Speaker 3: Thank you. Well, what comes up for me is how

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Speaker 3: the skinny obsession was really a ninety thing and then

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Speaker 3: that evolved into this like still skinny, but like have

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Speaker 3: a huge thick ass and tits part of my language,

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Speaker 3: but like ass and tits first three minutes and that's

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Speaker 3: like the sex so aspirational body type. You know, Historically

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Speaker 3: in different eras and cultures, like you know, the wealthy

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Speaker 3: were bigger because they were able to eat, unlike the peasants.

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Speaker 1: So that was the beauty the beauty standard. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So it makes me think that while there has been

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Speaker 3: some resurgence of sort of heroin chic, you know, being

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Speaker 3: the look again, it makes me wonder if that will

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Speaker 3: evolve again and become something else.

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Speaker 2: I think it just mays so keep your eyes on it.

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Speaker 2: It's a culty little live phenomena to watch. It's like diamonds.

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Speaker 3: I don't know why it makes me think of diamonds, Like,

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Speaker 3: we don't analogy is it. It feel like it's a

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Speaker 3: really bad amouny. It's just like we pick something random

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Speaker 3: and said this is super valuable because it seems hard

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Speaker 3: or same thing.

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Speaker 2: Now they're making them in labs, right, Diamonds and people

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Speaker 2: are like, that's not a really.

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Speaker 3: I don't care about that. We want someone to have

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Speaker 3: died for this. What's your cultiest thing of the week, Lila,

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Speaker 3: So do you remember the social media cult eater whose

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Speaker 3: name I don't actually know how to pronounce, but I'm

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Speaker 3: pretty sure you made it up anyway, so it doesn't matter.

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Speaker 1: Benton home a sorrow?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And how he had those videos of him that

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Speaker 3: he would post on Instagram of him just staring into

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Speaker 3: camera for uncomfortably long amounts of time, and the idea

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Speaker 3: is that he's connecting with you, but it's fucking creepy.

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Speaker 1: There are these Geico.

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Speaker 3: Commercials right now, Oh my god, where the Geico get

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Speaker 3: goo is just staring at you, and I low key

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Speaker 3: I'm like, I feel connected to him.

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Speaker 2: No, this is so nice. He's looking at me.

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Speaker 3: Obviously I don't actually feel this way, but like a

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Speaker 3: little tiny part of me is like, that's sweet. You know,

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Speaker 3: he's Look what is it about even fake cartoon character

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Speaker 3: or real person prolonged eye contact that like feels something.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's obviously meant to be kind of funny,

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Speaker 3: but I wonder if they tested that commercial and we're like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: eye contact, like they really feel connected with the.

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Speaker 2: Characters are completely lacking in any connection and warmth. Let's

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Speaker 2: just make the guy go stare at them and like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: we're social creatures. I might need connection, and I can

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Speaker 2: connect as one of them. And collators are so smart

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Speaker 2: they know to just like, do I contact.

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Speaker 3: Just to make you feel seely scene, yeah, really see it.

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Speaker 2: It's so easy. Wants you like, are a psychopath enough

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Speaker 2: to want to exploit it? Right?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 3: And it makes me think of my friend Steve Burns.

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Speaker 3: He was the original Steve from Blues Clues, yes, and

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Speaker 3: how he posts now on TikTok. His thing is he's

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Speaker 3: like still being Steve from Blues Clues, except it's for

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Speaker 3: millennials and he's like, how is your day? And it's

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Speaker 3: very sweet and it's very wholesome, and he's a very

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Speaker 3: wholesome person. People love it and they're like I needed this,

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Speaker 3: I needed this, thank you, Like they feel so connected

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Speaker 3: to him, right, we're just so starved. Yeah, which we'll

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Speaker 3: talk about this in other episodes, but AI fertile ground,

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Speaker 3: very fertile ground.

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Speaker 1: Remember, don't talk to anyone. You'll join Nicole.

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Speaker 2: That also need connection, We need connected I don't know

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Speaker 2: what the answer is, just no, one leave their house.

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Speaker 1: No, but then they're going to talk to the AI people.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god. No, the answer is leave your house,

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Speaker 1: but just leave it.

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Speaker 2: But what have to do?

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Speaker 1: Multiple things? I've lost the plot.

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Speaker 3: Okay, should we talk to Mecan Elizabeth. Let's do it

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Speaker 3: before we get into it. For listeners who haven't seen

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Speaker 3: The Way Down or haven't seen it in a minute

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Speaker 3: as a refresher. Gwen Chamblin was a church leader often

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Speaker 3: considered cult leader, who led the church the Remnant Fellowship

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Speaker 3: as well as The Way Down Workshop, both of which

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Speaker 3: preached being skinny as godly.

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Speaker 1: She had very high hair.

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Speaker 3: In addition to its wild teachings marketing eating disorders as virtuous,

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Speaker 3: the group is notorious for encouraging the physical punishment of children.

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Speaker 3: The church was raided by authorities in two thousand and

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Speaker 3: three when an eight year old child named Joseph Smith

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Speaker 3: was physically abused by his parents to death after being

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Speaker 3: encouraged by Gwen and her husband Joe Shamblin to use

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Speaker 3: corporal punishment, including hitting children with gloustics. The church publicly

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Speaker 3: supported and paid for the legal defense of the parents

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Speaker 3: who were convicted of child abuse and murder. So that's

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Speaker 3: the context we've never had on a guest who was

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Speaker 3: actually in the group and experienced the highly controlled teachings.

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Speaker 3: So today's guest is going to tell us about her

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Speaker 3: experience being a young person in the group and constantly

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Speaker 3: being told that she was not skinny enough.

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Speaker 2: And before we get into it, this episode does contain

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Speaker 2: descriptions of eating disorders and domestic violence, so make sure

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Speaker 2: to take care while listening.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Trust Me, Meg and Elizabeth Cox, thank you

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Speaker 3: so much for joining us.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 3: So we found you because you were on the documentary

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Speaker 3: series The Way Down, which is about Gwen Chamblin, the

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Speaker 3: Way Down Workshop and the Remnant Fellowship. And for those

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Speaker 3: who might not remember who Gwen Chamblin is, she's the

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Speaker 3: lady with a very very high blonde hair encouraging people

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Speaker 3: to starve themselves. So can you start us kind of

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Speaker 3: at the beginning of your experience with The Way Down.

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Speaker 3: How old were you when your mom started doing this program.

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Speaker 4: I was twelve twelve years old when mom found Weight

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Speaker 4: On Workshop. I don't remember exactly how she found it.

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Speaker 4: I just know that we did a lot of courses

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Speaker 4: in the church across the street, which was a Baptist church,

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Speaker 4: and then with a group of women that mom had

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Speaker 4: come to know in the area that we lived in,

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Speaker 4: which was like an hour north of Columbus. We did

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Speaker 4: courses all the time. Her tapes, cassette tapes were always

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Speaker 4: playing all the time. Everything we did, it was about

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Speaker 4: Gwen Chamblin. You know, because of that, my mom was

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Speaker 4: able to quit smoking. We all followed criteria, the curriculum

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Speaker 4: that Gwen laid out for, you know, if you wanted

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Speaker 4: to lose weight and turn your strength any relationship with God.

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Speaker 3: So it wasn't the Remnant Fellowship yet, but it was

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Speaker 3: taking place in a church already.

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Speaker 1: H yes, yeah, they were taking place in church.

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Speaker 4: What happened was she came out with a controversial take

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Speaker 4: on the Trinity, and she was booted out of a

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Speaker 4: lot of I think all the churches, really, I don't

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Speaker 4: remember exactly what she said. I just know it was

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Speaker 4: very offensive to a lot of churches. And so then

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Speaker 4: it became like in homes. So it wasn't was in churches,

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Speaker 4: and then it was in homes.

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Speaker 3: Interesting and your mom, you know, in the nineties, people

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Speaker 3: were obsessed with being skinny.

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Speaker 1: Everyone was on a diet.

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Speaker 3: My mom was in the beauty pageants circuit and like,

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Speaker 3: you know, same thing, just like this obsession, not from Harvard,

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Speaker 3: just like her community, like you have to be a

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Speaker 3: certain level of skinny totally and even like weight watchers

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Speaker 3: meetings I believe were like some.

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Speaker 2: Of the Midwest were in churches. Were they really like

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Speaker 2: a basement of a church. I don't think it was

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Speaker 2: necessarily connected, but they were letting them host them there.

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Speaker 3: I cannot imagine a church like how that intersects with

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Speaker 3: religion is so mysterious to me. I mean, obviously Gwen

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Speaker 3: Chamblain drew a very direct connection for herself.

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Speaker 2: But yes, the bestseller, so yeah, yeah, yeah, it was

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Speaker 2: very prevalent.

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Speaker 3: Were you participating at twelve years old in way down workshop?

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Speaker 4: Yes, I don't want to say forced to do it,

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Speaker 4: but you know, voluntold.

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Speaker 1: I guess it's like advertently and advertantly.

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Speaker 4: So before we really started doing it as a family,

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Speaker 4: you know, I mean, Mom had it playing all the time.

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Speaker 4: It was on constantly, so we couldn't help but listen

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Speaker 4: to what she was saying. Like I still remember to

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Speaker 4: this day, and this is the first time I ever

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Speaker 4: like mentioned it, but it's at least once a day

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Speaker 4: it pops up in my head. There was this really

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Speaker 4: cute older woman giving her testimony in one of the

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Speaker 4: videos and she goes, I was killing time to kill myself.

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Speaker 1: That'll stick with you.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you know when I was little, I was like, wow,

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Speaker 4: that's terrible. Like I never I never had a grasp

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Speaker 4: on that, but it just I never forgot it, you know.

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Speaker 4: And we would you know, joke like take little jokes

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Speaker 4: like how Gwen and David Martin would eat in the videos,

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Speaker 4: Like we would play around at the dinner table eating

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Speaker 4: like that.

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Speaker 1: And you know.

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Speaker 4: So it was very prevalent, uh in my childhood, whether

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Speaker 4: or not I wanted it to be, it was there

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Speaker 4: all the time.

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Speaker 3: Did your family and did your mom consider it to

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Speaker 3: be a religious activity at that time or it was

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Speaker 3: just this is our like diet and lifestyle.

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Speaker 4: I would say it was it was more a religious activity.

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Speaker 4: It was well, obviously no one wants to be fat,

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Speaker 4: and especially back then in like the mid nineties, I

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Speaker 4: was about, oh gosh, like very young then, but I

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Speaker 4: hate dating myself like that, but.

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Speaker 1: I mean same same generation.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, being skinny was everything. So that was obviously the goal.

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Speaker 4: But you know my mom, she has her own issues

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Speaker 4: and she found a lot of healing and in hope

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Speaker 4: from all of that, So I think it became more

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Speaker 4: of a religious thing to her. I even suspect she

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Speaker 4: might have looked at Gwen as a mother figure because

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Speaker 4: she really didn't have one. I remember being a freshman

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Speaker 4: in high school and we took a trip down to

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Speaker 4: Brentwood and we saw the weight On workshop and everything,

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Speaker 4: and Mom was talking about moving down there then. And

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Speaker 4: that was before remnant even happened. And this is Brentwood, Tennis, Tennessee.

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Speaker 2: Sorry Brentwood, No, no, I just have one question before

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Speaker 2: we get into that. But what was the way that

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Speaker 2: she was phrasing things on these tapes that kind of

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Speaker 2: married Like how was Gwen marrying weight and religion?

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Speaker 4: So Gwen would say overeating you were worshiping the food.

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Speaker 4: So she talked about how the Israelites had wandered the

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Speaker 4: desert for forty years and rely on God for everything,

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Speaker 4: even food. She equated like she used that story and

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Speaker 4: how they built the Golden Idol out of you know,

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Speaker 4: all their jewelry and everything, and you being overweight and overeating,

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Speaker 4: you are the Israelites worshiping that golden idol? And God

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Speaker 4: had said no idols. Basically, you can't worship anything over him.

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Speaker 4: So that's how it started. And then you know a

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Speaker 4: lot of bound down to the refrigerator, and you know,

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Speaker 4: when you want to overeat, cry out to God and say, God,

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Speaker 4: help me, help me not want to overeat, or help

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Speaker 4: me not want to take this extra bite? You know,

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Speaker 4: I want to I want to be closer to you.

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Speaker 4: There was a lot, a lot of that. So she

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Speaker 4: would she had a lot of videos. She would teach

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Speaker 4: you how to cut your food in half and you'd

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Speaker 4: pray before, be very slow, small bites, and pray between

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Speaker 4: each bite. You know.

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Speaker 3: It was Oh so it was Jesus coded, like yeah,

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Speaker 3: shanity coded.

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Speaker 2: From the beginning, it sounds like it was also in

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Speaker 2: that genre of like God is a jealous God and

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Speaker 2: he is jealous.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, she said that all the time. God is

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Speaker 1: a jealous God.

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Speaker 4: He wants your love and he'll fight for your love.

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Speaker 4: Your body's a temple. God gave it to you and

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Speaker 4: you only have one, so take care of it and

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Speaker 4: don't be greedy. You know, being overweighted is a very

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Speaker 4: clear symbol of greed on your body basically, and that's

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Speaker 4: you know, God.

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Speaker 1: I think it's one of the teen connatments.

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Speaker 3: So God should learn to stopping the center of attention

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Speaker 3: all the time. God right got an attention one of

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Speaker 3: my best friends group of Jehovah's Witness, and they would

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Speaker 3: use really similar language just in terms of like things

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Speaker 3: being a distraction from God. But for them it would

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Speaker 3: be like holidays, or like voting, or like sports, like

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Speaker 3: they made him quit sports, eating food, like enjoying food

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Speaker 3: seems like such a strange thing to focus on as

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Speaker 3: the distraction from God. Were there other activities or things

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Speaker 3: that were considered to be distractions from God? H?

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Speaker 1: Yes?

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Speaker 4: So, like I had mentioned before, you know, my mom

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Speaker 4: had quit smoking using the tenants of the program. My

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Speaker 4: mom had also said that it helped relieve her of depression.

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Speaker 4: A lot of people were saying that they became better

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Speaker 4: wives and husbands and you know, better children, you know,

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Speaker 4: just by applying the tenets of the program to whatever

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Speaker 4: their issue may be.

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Speaker 3: Right, I'm curious how they would apply because like some

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Speaker 3: of those details of like eating slower, praying between bites, like,

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Speaker 3: how would that apply to something like being a good wife.

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Speaker 4: I don't know how it eventually morphed into that, but

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Speaker 4: you know you're happier because you've lost weight, and then

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Speaker 4: you know, focusing on your relationship with God, you see

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Speaker 4: cracks in other areas in your life. You know, the

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Speaker 4: husband's the figurehead, and you know, how can you be

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Speaker 4: better for him?

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Speaker 1: You know that's showing how you honor God.

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Speaker 2: And I'm just like pointing it out. I mean, at

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Speaker 2: this point, you now have an eating disorder, so you

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Speaker 2: do probably feel more controlled. You do probably feel like

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Speaker 2: a little bit more stable and like things are probably.

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Speaker 3: Because it works at first. It works at first, and

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Speaker 3: that's the problem, at least to make you feel but yes,

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Speaker 3: I'm not saying it works.

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Speaker 2: It works for your brain to kind of organize.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And we've talked about that a little

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Speaker 3: bit on this podcast. How sometimes you know, we all

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Speaker 3: have this need to feel.

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Speaker 1: Like we have what's the word that I want? Control?

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Speaker 3: It was another one, but sure, uh, agency, agency and

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Speaker 3: control over our lives. And how one of the areas

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Speaker 3: we can see overlapping with people who've maybe lost agency

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Speaker 3: after joining a cult or something. It can show up

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Speaker 3: in the form of an eating disorder because it can

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Speaker 3: provide that like temporary hit, like I'm in control of something.

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Speaker 1: I can see that totally.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, seeing tangible results. It's it's very easy.

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Speaker 1: Right, if I do X thing, I'll see why.

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Speaker 2: And then you're more susceptible to being under the control

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Speaker 2: of somebody like your husband, because you're.

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Speaker 1: Because you're hungry and you're thinking correctly. Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 3: I was reading the article that you wrote for Spirit Watch.

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Speaker 1: Oh gosh, I'm so sorry you read the whole thing. No,

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Speaker 1: it's great, it's great. There's I was.

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Speaker 3: I appreciated how much detail was in there, but you

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Speaker 3: wrote about some of the specific stuff.

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Speaker 1: You said, the best part was.

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Speaker 3: That we could eat whatever we wanted, but we had

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Speaker 3: to wait until our stomach growled physically, and we had

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Speaker 3: to cut our food in half. We would box up

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Speaker 3: or put away the leftovers so we wouldn't be tempted

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Speaker 3: to eat all of it. It's just like the level

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Speaker 3: of control over your diet every day.

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Speaker 1: How did that feel as a child?

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Speaker 4: Well, I might be an exception to the rule because

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Speaker 4: I was pretty well used to this behavior before. Way

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Speaker 4: down my dad's stepmom were very controlling with how much

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Speaker 4: food I ate. So for me, it just it felt normal, right,

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Speaker 4: and it's like, you know, I hope that makes sense,

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Speaker 4: but I can't speak for other people. I'm sure thinking

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Speaker 4: about it now, it feels like an incredible chore, Like

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Speaker 4: you you have to really think about every action that

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Speaker 4: you take.

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Speaker 1: You know, you have to cut your food in half,

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Speaker 1: You've got to put.

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Speaker 4: It away, you know, you've got to It's just it's

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Speaker 4: a lot, it's a it's labor intensive essentially, especially some

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Speaker 4: people can't help, you know, or like you can't even

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Speaker 4: like you couldn't even think about food like that was

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Speaker 4: a bad. That was bad to even think about food

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Speaker 4: or chewing gumb in between, you know. Yeah, so it

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Speaker 4: was very labor intensive.

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Speaker 2: I was just gonna say, like not, I don't want

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Speaker 2: to label everything, but it feels like OCD, like you're

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Speaker 2: making people have those almost.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, becoming obsessed with whether they had an incorrect thought,

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Speaker 3: which would be a food thought Like that.

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Speaker 1: Totally right makes sense to me.

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Speaker 4: It's it's really hard because like how do you not

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Speaker 4: think I don't know that reality, Like how do you

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Speaker 4: not think about it?

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Speaker 3: Also, like we've talked about it a million times, but

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Speaker 3: trying not to have a thought is not a strategy.

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Speaker 3: It makes the thought come back more. That's not why

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Speaker 3: it works. Don't think about the pink elephant in the

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Speaker 3: room that you really don't want to think about that

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Speaker 3: pink elephant. So for your experience, you had already kind

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Speaker 3: of been in a family that was encouraging this kind

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Speaker 3: of highly controlled diet behavior, and yeah, when you've been

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Speaker 3: in something like that, of course it would just feel

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Speaker 3: normal to you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, unfortunately.

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Speaker 3: But did you like the program? Did you feel connected

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Speaker 3: to it?

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Speaker 4: I liked being skinny, I liked being my mom happy.

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Speaker 4: That was good, you know. But I've said it before,

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Speaker 4: I just have always had a really hard time dang,

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Speaker 4: like I get it, Like I can see how it

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Speaker 4: really helps, like Christianity in general, how it really helps people.

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Speaker 4: And I just I kind of got along to get along,

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Speaker 4: you know, like it kind of made sense. But you know,

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Speaker 4: eventually I'd be like, this doesn't make sense, you know it.

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Speaker 4: I feel weird, I feel awkward. It doesn't really fully

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Speaker 4: resonate with me. I really haven't found any kind of

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Speaker 4: religion that fully resonates, honestly, And that's okay, you know,

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Speaker 4: but never really ever bought in. There was always something

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Speaker 4: that would pull me out of, you know, whatever hyper

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Speaker 4: fixation I was in.

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Speaker 1: I guess we could say, right, so makes sense.

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Speaker 3: Can you tell us about the conference where you first

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Speaker 3: met Gwenn Chamblain. Do you remember meeting her and what

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Speaker 3: that was like?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so, oh gosh, we I remember it was a

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Speaker 4: super huge, big deal. We traveled down to Nashville too,

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Speaker 4: and Gwen was really accessible back then. It was very astounding,

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Speaker 4: you know, and I remember just the big conference. I

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Speaker 4: don't think the conference room that we were in. It

401
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Speaker 4: was in the Nashville I can't remember the name of it,

402
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Speaker 4: but it was downtown and it was overwhelming, but in

403
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Speaker 4: a good way. There was just a lot of people

404
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Speaker 4: there that you knew had also gone through this program

405
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Speaker 4: and found you know, their joy and you know, their

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Speaker 4: relationship with God and the program. And then like I said,

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Speaker 4: Gwen being so accessible and so warm and friendly, and

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Speaker 4: then getting to meet Michael too. He was just I

409
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Speaker 4: think the conference we went to, he had just launched

410
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Speaker 4: his music as well, so you know that was probably

411
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Speaker 4: the biggest you know, like she was like a celebrity

412
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Speaker 4: to me. We've only been around the TV and I

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Speaker 4: was like, wow.

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Speaker 1: It reminds me of like a Bravo celebrity.

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Speaker 2: Yes, you know what I mean, that's the context that

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Speaker 2: I see again, and like waiting in line to get

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Speaker 2: your book signed or something is how I am.

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Speaker 1: That's basically kind of how it is.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, It's like, for the amount of people that were there,

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Speaker 4: it was really astounding that we could, you know, get

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Speaker 4: close to her and talk to her, and that she

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Speaker 4: was able to exude like genuine happiness and enjoy you know,

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Speaker 4: at least, I mean, she fooled me, so she is.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you guys gonna ask, did did you feel that

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Speaker 3: charisma from her?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

427
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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely right from the beginning.

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Speaker 4: And again, like I don't know if you know, we

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Speaker 4: had this woman on a pedestal because you know, I

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Speaker 4: saw what she did for my mom and she was

431
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Speaker 4: always you know, in our lives, you know, for years

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Speaker 4: at this point, so she's she felt very like a

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Speaker 4: very familiar person. But yet like you know, she's done

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Speaker 4: all these amazing things, like she used to be fat

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Speaker 4: and now she's thin, and look what she's doing right right.

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Speaker 3: I obviously was not a part of this particular workshop,

437
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Speaker 3: but my mom had a lot of nineties self help

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Speaker 3: tapes and I would have flipped my ship if I

439
00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,200
Speaker 3: had gotten to meet any of those gurus in person. Also,

440
00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:49,679
Speaker 3: we were listening to we were listening to tapes on

441
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:53,600
Speaker 3: how to become a ventriloquist in the car, and it

442
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:55,320
Speaker 3: was the same thing where there were always these tapes

443
00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:57,240
Speaker 3: playing about how to become a ventriloquist. And that is

444
00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:00,320
Speaker 3: how I learned to do ventriloquism. And then went to

445
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:01,560
Speaker 3: the Ventriloquist convention.

446
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:03,040
Speaker 2: No, well, why.

447
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:06,760
Speaker 3: Some of the ventriloquist that I had seen like on

448
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:09,720
Speaker 3: VHS tapes and like heard on cassettes and it was

449
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:10,280
Speaker 3: really exciting.

450
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:11,720
Speaker 1: So anyway, what I'm saying is I really.

451
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:13,960
Speaker 2: To you, Yeah, that would have that would have been exciting.

452
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:16,640
Speaker 1: Why could my mom do something like ventrali Quist?

453
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:17,080
Speaker 2: You know?

454
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:18,720
Speaker 1: That would have been really fun.

455
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:22,760
Speaker 3: It had its own it had its own dramas and

456
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:23,640
Speaker 3: the ventriloquism.

457
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:29,600
Speaker 1: Yeah truly, Oh my gosh.

458
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:34,040
Speaker 3: Okay, so when did it become an actual church that

459
00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:35,639
Speaker 3: your family became a part of.

460
00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:40,960
Speaker 4: So it remnant started in nineteen ninety nine, but it

461
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,080
Speaker 4: didn't appear like my mom didn't find out about it

462
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:47,600
Speaker 4: till like two thousand, two thousand, two thousand and one,

463
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,280
Speaker 4: two thousand and two. I can't remember when the South Bend,

464
00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:53,720
Speaker 4: Indiana tour staff was her rebuilding the Wall tour where

465
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,240
Speaker 4: she was going out and like the Desert Oasis she

466
00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,840
Speaker 4: was going out and like talking about how she's starting

467
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:03,600
Speaker 4: this new church, she's starting Remnant Fellowship because she's noticed

468
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,399
Speaker 4: and in the church, and you know, the pastors are

469
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:10,119
Speaker 4: leading the flock astray. And I wasn't living with my

470
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:14,040
Speaker 4: mom at the time. She had went to that conference.

471
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,800
Speaker 4: She went with what eventually became the Satellite Group, the

472
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:22,160
Speaker 4: Satellite Remnant Group of Mary in Ohio. The women too

473
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:25,120
Speaker 4: that went, the families that went, we also had gone

474
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,240
Speaker 4: to church with them and did weigh on everything with them.

475
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,360
Speaker 4: So I was living with my dad up here where

476
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,800
Speaker 4: I live now, and that was miserable.

477
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:33,239
Speaker 1: I was.

478
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:38,040
Speaker 4: I was a really lost teenager. I was really rebellious.

479
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 4: If they told me not to do something, I did it.

480
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 4: And then some I just wanted to do what I

481
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,240
Speaker 4: wanted to do. I feel like a typical teenager. But

482
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 4: you know, there was a lot of trauma attached to it,

483
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,320
Speaker 4: so it might have made it worse, but I don't know.

484
00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 1: I think it was around Easter.

485
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,240
Speaker 4: I finally decided that I had enough of living with

486
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 4: my dad and stepmom. My dad was an alcoholic at

487
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,199
Speaker 4: the time, and it was just at miserable. It was

488
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 4: misery every day, and I really hadn't had much to

489
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,120
Speaker 4: do with them since I was twelve as it were,

490
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,399
Speaker 4: so it was I don't know. I just couldn't take

491
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,680
Speaker 4: it anymore. So when Mom came and got me, she said, well,

492
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 4: this is how it's going to be. Now. We're in

493
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 4: this new church, Remnant Fellowship, and you can't drink, you

494
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 4: can't smoke, you can't date, basically a lot of lists

495
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 4: of you can't And I agreed to it because I

496
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,080
Speaker 4: couldn't live. How old were you I was eighteen. I

497
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 4: couldn't live where. I couldn't live with my dad and

498
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 4: sum anymore. It was miserable.

499
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 1: I hated it. I was lonely. It was my senior year.

500
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,439
Speaker 4: I didn't have I met people, I made friends, but

501
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 4: it wasn't like where I grew up. So I moved

502
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 4: back in and then immediately we started attending the little

503
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 4: church group in Sue Ruth's garage, and Marian and I

504
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 4: hated it.

505
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 1: Sue Ruth, that's a name I can see this.

506
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 2: There was something very comforting about those Midwestern eating disorder

507
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,359
Speaker 2: clubs that I kept going to and wait watchers, like,

508
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 2: I don't know, I missed those sometimes there was a

509
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:03,159
Speaker 2: sense of control there. I don't know how to go,

510
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:03,439
Speaker 2: I mean.

511
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 1: And also, it is a community.

512
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,920
Speaker 3: We are describing a community, whatever form it is, whether

513
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 3: it's healthy or not. When there's a group of people

514
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,920
Speaker 3: with a shared goal and you know, shared lens that

515
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,400
Speaker 3: they're looking through, like, of course you're going to feel

516
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 3: connected to those people. So you didn't even It's not

517
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:21,640
Speaker 3: like you were like, I'm going to join remnant Fellowship.

518
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 3: You were just like, I got to get out of here,

519
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 3: and this is what is required of me.

520
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:27,359
Speaker 1: Correct.

521
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was my only other option essentially, well not essentially,

522
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:32,640
Speaker 4: it was it was my only other option. So it

523
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 4: was either choose to stay miserable or you know, I guess,

524
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 4: choose another type of misery. I didn't know I was

525
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:43,160
Speaker 4: walking into. Yeah, I was desperate. I needed to change.

526
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 4: I wasn't there for long. I moved out, Oh gosh,

527
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,160
Speaker 4: So I think it was like April twenty, two thousand

528
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 4: and two, and then about June two thousand and two,

529
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,879
Speaker 4: I had moved out with a boy that I had

530
00:25:57,920 --> 00:25:59,200
Speaker 4: been sneaking out to see.

531
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,639
Speaker 1: I was bad, I will admit it.

532
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 4: But it was hard because I couldn't even like associate

533
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 4: with my friends going back either, Like I had to

534
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:09,920
Speaker 4: basically cut everyone and everything off.

535
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 2: So what did it look like? What was the weekly

536
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 2: regiment of being a member of this church?

537
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 4: So I had to complete adhere to everything my mom

538
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 4: and stepdad said. Whatever they said, I had to say,

539
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,400
Speaker 4: you know, I had to do it completely, submit, and

540
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 4: I had to read the Bible. We had to do

541
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:29,720
Speaker 4: a lot of things that back then. It was phone

542
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:34,119
Speaker 4: calls on a like this weird conference thing. I was

543
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 4: in school, So we did that on Sundays. I can't

544
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 4: remember if there was. I'm sure there's probably midweek you know,

545
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 4: calls or touch ins. Theres Bible studies. I vaguely remember,

546
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:45,959
Speaker 4: but I know that there was Every Sunday we got

547
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,120
Speaker 4: together in that garage and we listened to Gwen talk.

548
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 4: She just did conference calls at that time. Oh yeah,

549
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 4: it's so nineties. It's also very nineties it is.

550
00:26:57,840 --> 00:26:59,880
Speaker 3: I mean we're in the early two thousands, but still

551
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 3: it was so very dated.

552
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,400
Speaker 2: And what were you guys weighing in what was that

553
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 2: process like, Like, how did you determine if you were

554
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 2: Because to lose weight was to be right with God,

555
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:14,239
Speaker 2: and to gain weight it was to be sinning. Am

556
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 2: I surmising that correctly?

557
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 4: No, that is absolutely correct. It was always about your right.

558
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:20,920
Speaker 4: It was always about the weight first and foremost, and

559
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 4: and you dove into everything else. But I can't remember

560
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 4: if I was over I don't think I was overweight

561
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 4: at that first time. I think I was, so I

562
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,160
Speaker 4: don't really remember being I weighed in around that time.

563
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 4: I'm sure I was. I'm sure you know that was

564
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:43,399
Speaker 4: always monitored, you know. I remember even before remnant happened,

565
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 4: like getting on the scale in the morning and kind

566
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 4: of you know, logging and clogging you know what, and

567
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:53,639
Speaker 4: doing it at night like watching it that way, very obsessive.

568
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 4: But the second time, like coming back because I didn't

569
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 4: have a job, and I think I was like night team.

570
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 4: I would do the weekly Bible studies with the women

571
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 4: and we would all, you know, weigh in together. I

572
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 4: remember weighing in in front of like Karen Sims and

573
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,440
Speaker 4: Sue Ruth and all those women and just feeling humiliated.

574
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,879
Speaker 4: It's very humiliating to be scrutinized like that. It's it's hard,

575
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 4: you know, because, like I said, no one wants to

576
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 4: be fat, no one. No one wants to struggle with anything,

577
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 4: you know. We all want to be our best versions

578
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 4: of ourselves.

579
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 1: Yeah.

580
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,239
Speaker 3: Well, and especially in an environment where you're literally being

581
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,920
Speaker 3: told there's something wrong with you and you're bad and

582
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:32,719
Speaker 3: sinning if the number is higher than they decided.

583
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:34,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's what I guess I'm getting out, Like,

584
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 2: is there a certain number that once you reach your

585
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 2: like enlightened, so to speak, you're good now?

586
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: No, there was never There was no limit.

587
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 4: So Surou's daughter moved down to Nashville, and she was

588
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 4: thin to me, I thought, And when she moved down there,

589
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 4: she lost more weight. So then it was being reported

590
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 4: back that in Nashville they were cutting their half in half.

591
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 4: So like they would have half a bagel, they'd take

592
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 4: that one half of the bagel and cut that in half.

593
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, my god. So it became even more extreme. Yeah.

594
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 3: If you know, you guys were away in or at

595
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 3: church or whatever like, and the number was wrong, Like,

596
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 3: what then would happen in the group. Would there be

597
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 3: discussion about the number being too high or like, what

598
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 3: was the next thing that would happen?

599
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 4: Yes, So one time I vividly remember, I think it

600
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 4: was at that same Bible study where I was waiting,

601
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 4: like I was still like very fresh into coming back

602
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 4: after the first run through, and I was pretty chubby

603
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 4: back then, and I remember getting on the scale. I

604
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 4: don't remember what it was, but it was it was

605
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 4: must have been. You know, it's so funny. I always

606
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 4: come back around Easter at Remnant. I noticed it because

607
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 4: the second time I came back, it was around like

608
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 4: Easter aka Passover. They celebrated Passover, so we knew there

609
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 4: was fasting a lot of people were fasting for Passover,

610
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 4: and you know, the women decided that that's what we

611
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 4: were going to do. And they said, well, how long

612
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 4: does you know God want you to fast?

613
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 1: That's what it was.

614
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 4: How long does God want you to fast? And I said, well,

615
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 4: the number nine keeps coming to mind, so nine days,

616
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 4: and I ate nothing for nine days, all to be

617
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 4: you know, right with God and to not be carrying

618
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 4: this extra weight. And I remember like speaking a little

619
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 4: bit of v juice and feeling so guilty and feeling

620
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 4: that I've failed because I was so.

621
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 1: I don't know. If you guys have done that, I

622
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 1: wouldn't recommend it.

623
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 4: It was awful. I felt so ill, but I came

624
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 4: out the other side and I did it. I will

625
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 4: never do it again.

626
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 2: No, I have never done that. If the number nine

627
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 2: came to my had, i'd be like nine minutes.

628
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 1: Yeah.

629
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 4: So I worked very hard not to be in that

630
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 4: position because I don't like being in trouble. I don't

631
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 4: like feeling like I've disappointed someone or let someone down.

632
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 4: So I worked really hard to always be on everyone's

633
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 4: good side basically. But I there would just be like

634
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 4: a scrutinizing of your routines and your habits and what

635
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 4: are you doing? You know, how what are you eating?

636
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 4: How much are you eating? You know, are you're really

637
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 4: paying attention to it? If you're consistent with, you know,

638
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 4: not losing the weight they think you should, which again

639
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 4: it's arbitrary. It's just numbers they could make up, or

640
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 4: that you could say, well, I think I want to

641
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 4: lose you know, ten pounds in a month or something.

642
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 4: You know, it's there's no science to it or regimen,

643
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 4: I guess, just other than you need to you know,

644
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 4: eat the way when's telling you to eat.

645
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 2: Right, because she was kind of saying like, you can

646
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 2: eat whatever you want because like we're now connected to

647
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 2: God and he is it like he'll help us metabolize it.

648
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 4: Differently, is that her promise? Her thing was that no

649
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 4: foods were unclean. So a lot of you know, diets,

650
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 4: especially back in the you know, nineties, early two thousands,

651
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 4: there's a lot of fat free you know, like snack wells,

652
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 4: you know, one hundred calories stuff, you know, everything was

653
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 4: fat free and you know, car free and couldn't do

654
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 4: this on this diet or bad on that diet.

655
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 1: And she was basic the thing, you can lose weight

656
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 1: if you eat all those things. You don't need diet food.

657
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 2: You guys need to eat way less of it. You

658
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 2: just need to cut it in half or and God

659
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 2: will help you do that. Yeah, right, you just have

660
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 2: to pressure. I mean, she's not wrong entirely, it's just yeah.

661
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 1: Well, sure if you limit your caloric intake.

662
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 2: And that's where she started to get to lose so

663
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 2: really trouble where she would compare it to kind of

664
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 2: like the Holocaust, I believe where she was Wait, what

665
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 2: was that again?

666
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 4: She you go, Megan, please, she i don't remember this interview,

667
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 4: but I did see it because I someone had mentioned

668
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 4: it and it kept getting mentioned. I'm like, I got

669
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 4: to see this clip because I don't remember it, and

670
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 4: I pulled it up and she said, well, you know,

671
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 4: the Jews were skinny during the Holocaust, like she was

672
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 4: being interviewed by Larry King and reference just drop my job,

673
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 4: like lady.

674
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 1: And she was saying, like that's a sign of like virtue.

675
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 2: Well, she's saying like, yeah, if you if you eat less,

676
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 2: you're gonna you're gonna lose weight.

677
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: Like eight last.

678
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 2: She had the Larry King interview playing on a loop

679
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 2: in her office.

680
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 1: Correct, yeah, oh yeah, all of our interviews.

681
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, so this message is not only wild, but it's

682
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 2: just being repeated and.

683
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 1: Repeated and repeated.

684
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 3: Well, and that's got to make people feel like I'm

685
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 3: only good if I'm not just like thin but like starving.

686
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, like skin and bones. Yeah yeah, basically, so

687
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 2: my collar bones were sticking out, my hip bones were

688
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 2: sticking out, and they still looked at me and the

689
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 2: Sioux Ruth again and Karen sim still said, well, how

690
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 2: much more.

691
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 1: Weight do you have to lose?

692
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 4: And I was like, I don't know how much more

693
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,479
Speaker 4: I can lose. Yeah, this is the thinness I've been

694
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 4: in my entire life. I'm a naturally big breasted woman

695
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 4: and I only lost a cup size and you know,

696
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 4: my well, your boobs are still big, and I'm like,

697
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 4: I don't think they're going to go anywhere.

698
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 1: What's wrong with that?

699
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 2: Well, I imagine what's wrong with that is that men

700
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 2: were coveting after you.

701
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 4: Well, I mean probably I wasn't allowed to being in remnant,

702
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 4: Like you had to cover all that up, Like you

703
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 4: couldn't be flashy, like, so your here had to be

704
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 4: natural colors, you know, no piercings, no visible tattoos, if

705
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 4: you can help it. I always had shirts that very

706
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 4: well covered any cleavage. It was really tough back then

707
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 4: to have taps long enough to cover the stomach.

708
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 1: Area right right right. That fashion didn't exist back then.

709
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, because I have tattoos on my mid section and

710
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,399
Speaker 4: on my back, and you know, you couldn't show that,

711
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:46,759
Speaker 4: and you know that a lot of people think that's

712
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,719
Speaker 4: too sexy. So there was a lot of modest you know,

713
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 4: it was kind of like Christian fundamentalism. Yeah, you know,

714
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 4: I relate to a lot of Christian fundamentalists to like

715
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 4: what they've gone through. I'm like, oh, that was a

716
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 4: lot like how remnant was as well. You couldn't make

717
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 4: your brother in Christ stumble, so you know, you had

718
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:06,400
Speaker 4: to be very near and mindful.

719
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 3: They told they, they told us that in Mormonism too,

720
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 3: we had to keep our I think they've relaxed some

721
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:15,359
Speaker 3: of the rules since I was growing up, But when

722
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,359
Speaker 3: I was growing up, you couldn't show your shoulders at all.

723
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 3: You couldn't wear any sleepless shirts obviously, could not show

724
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 3: your midriff in any way, and skirts had you know,

725
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 3: knee length and lower was ideal because if it didn't

726
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 3: meet those standards. Well, one, when you went through the

727
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 3: temple and got your temple garments, of course your temple

728
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:35,319
Speaker 3: garments shouldn't be able to show. But the other thing

729
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 3: is that you can't tempt men, because men can be

730
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,399
Speaker 3: tempted if you dare show a shoulder, and of course

731
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 3: the implication.

732
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, or an ankle, and then.

733
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, and you're in her group, Yeah I am.

734
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, we like, listen, we're we're tempting creatures

735
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 3: and men can't help themselves.

736
00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:00,880
Speaker 1: So no, yeah, that's terrible.

737
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, what were some of the other kind of

738
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 3: tenets like that that didn't directly relate to the weight loss,

739
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:10,240
Speaker 3: But we're just like more of the religious beliefs.

740
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 4: The line of authority, So anyone older than you was,

741
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 4: you know, an authority figure.

742
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 1: So if they told you something, you had to listen.

743
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 3: Which is why your mom was in charge of your

744
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:23,840
Speaker 3: life even though you were over eighteen.

745
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:26,839
Speaker 2: Yes, so if you're if you're an adult and an

746
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 2: adult is older than you, that adult is your authority.

747
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 1: You got it. Yep, it's insane, you know. And oh gosh.

748
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 4: So there was a lot of you know, the line

749
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 4: of authority making sure that you were focusing on obeying

750
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 4: the authority because of being that hierarchy is essentially showing

751
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 4: God how dedicated you are to him and how much

752
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,319
Speaker 4: you put him first. There wasn't a moment where there

753
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 4: wasn't some kind of event or gathering, so they constantly

754
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 4: kept us busy. There was a lot of volunteering, like

755
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,400
Speaker 4: you cleaned the church, you know, helped in the nursery

756
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 4: with the kids, helped your fellow you know, member of

757
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:06,240
Speaker 4: church members watching their kids. Again, like you don't focus

758
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:08,720
Speaker 4: on self, focus on serving and if you like, struggle

759
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 4: with anxiety depression. That just means you're being selfish. So

760
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 4: get out there and serve your fellow brothers and sisters

761
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 4: in Christ. Read your Bible, you know, get out there

762
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:18,399
Speaker 4: and do things you know, serve the church.

763
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 2: Sounds like we've got a perfect recipe. You're a sleep deprived,

764
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 2: food depressed.

765
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:25,439
Speaker 1: Your time is completely consumed.

766
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, and completely there you go, and everything you do

767
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 3: is a sign of your sin basically, yeah, for yourself.

768
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 4: Anything and everything you know, like I said, insert whatever

769
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 4: like it would be. For example, before we moved to Nashville,

770
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 4: I for my twentieth birthday, I got second holes pierced

771
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 4: through my ears and I got my cartlage pierced. And

772
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,360
Speaker 4: I didn't think to ask my mom because I was twenty.

773
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:51,799
Speaker 4: And I remember getting in trouble for that because I

774
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 4: did not ask permission.

775
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 1: And I was like so confused. And this is not

776
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:57,439
Speaker 1: to like bad moth my mom.

777
00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 4: It's just you know, twenty years old and I couldn't

778
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 4: go pierce my ears on my own accord.

779
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 1: I had to make sure I permission from my authority. Figures.

780
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 1: That's so crazy.

781
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:06,920
Speaker 3: I don't want to jump ahead, so you don't need

782
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,879
Speaker 3: to comment on this yet, but I can't imagine when

783
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 3: you do finally leave the church and your parents. Like

784
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 3: if it were me, I'd be like, oh my god,

785
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 3: I'm fucking free. But we will get to that.

786
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 1: We'll get that. Yeah, okay.

787
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 3: So you you also wrote about this experience at the

788
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 3: summer camp in Nashville where Gwen was, Yes, and you

789
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 3: wrote about this thunderstorm.

790
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:35,280
Speaker 1: Can you tell us about the thunderstorm? Yes.

791
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:39,920
Speaker 4: So I remember going to that camp just feeling very dejected.

792
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 4: I was trying to move to Nashville to kind of,

793
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 4: you know, getting my own freedom and staying at my

794
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 4: own two feet and do something with my life.

795
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 1: And that way was blocked. I wasn't.

796
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 4: I'd been working really hard doing everything I was told

797
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 4: lost all the weight, and I was told I wasn't.

798
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 4: I wasn't pure en us like they were very obsessed

799
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 4: with being pure. And I like, you should be able

800
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 4: to lay down all sin and be Jesus Christ if

801
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:06,919
Speaker 4: if you work hard at it and focus on God

802
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,280
Speaker 4: and you know again and obey that, you know authority,

803
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:13,279
Speaker 4: hierarchy within the church. And I was feeling guilty, like

804
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:15,399
Speaker 4: I think I was told that I should lose five

805
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 4: more pounds, and I was feeling awful because I didn't

806
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:21,399
Speaker 4: know how it was going to lose this weight. And

807
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 4: then that storm blew in, and storms are really bad

808
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 4: in that area as it were. We didn't know this

809
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:29,719
Speaker 4: because we weren't living there at the time, but this

810
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,439
Speaker 4: this storm had blown in. It was very scary, and

811
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:37,240
Speaker 4: I remember Gwen stopping everything and we all were down

812
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 4: on our basis just laying on the floor praying to

813
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:43,920
Speaker 4: God for mercy. And you know, Gwen was telling us

814
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 4: that someone in the campus sinned and you need to

815
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 4: get right with God because if we were to be

816
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,279
Speaker 4: taken out, well that's your fault if you're sinning. So

817
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 4: you know, get right with God and beg for forgiveness.

818
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 4: And of course I'm laying on the floor like freaking out, like,

819
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,959
Speaker 4: oh my God, like I can't get this weight off,

820
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 4: and you know, I've not been doing what I'm supposed

821
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 4: to be doing, you know, which the goalposts always move anyway,

822
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:08,399
Speaker 4: so like I probably never was going to get there.

823
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,400
Speaker 4: But I remember the moment thinking, gosh, I can't imagine

824
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:15,400
Speaker 4: like taking out all these wonderful people because you know,

825
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:18,360
Speaker 4: so it's like she she really turned it back on

826
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 4: all of us, like, you guys must have done something

827
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 4: to make this happen.

828
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 3: To cause a thunderstorm.

829
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, what a manipulation. I mean yeah, do you

830
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 1: think she believed any of it?

831
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 4: I do one hundred percent feel that she believed it

832
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 4: because that that message came up.

833
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 1: I know one sermon she talked about the butterfly effect.

834
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 1: If I remember, I think she even showed parts of

835
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 1: the movie The Ashton Kutcher. Oh my god, that's okay, okay.

836
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, And so she would say if you are sinning,

837
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 4: like you need to watch what you're doing. That one

838
00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:02,800
Speaker 4: bite over full could create catastrophe for somebody else.

839
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 2: I can't that is so intense.

840
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 1: Yeah.

841
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 3: In other words, the butterfly effect, how do we describe

842
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 3: if someone doesn't know what that means, like a gen

843
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 3: Z person, for.

844
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 2: Example, But the flutter of a butterfly's wings can affect

845
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 2: an event.

846
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 3: It can cause a tsunami across the world. Like everything's connected. Yeah,

847
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 3: you don't see necessarily the little effect you'll have on

848
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 3: something else and something else and something else.

849
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 2: So for example, you're you're supposed to let your body growl,

850
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 2: which I wanted to land on a little bit more

851
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 2: before you could eat, Like she was like, find your growl.

852
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,840
Speaker 2: I think your stomach's growl. Your stomachs growling.

853
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:41,959
Speaker 1: And then your stomach literally had to growl. Yeah yeah,

854
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 1: that's so grow so wacky. I mean to tell you,

855
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:47,799
Speaker 1: it's very agree that my stomach ever growls, like I need.

856
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:52,720
Speaker 2: To pay sick right, Yeah, yeah, I get so nauseous

857
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 2: before my stomach whatever. I would just be perpetually on

858
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:59,359
Speaker 2: a couch at this point, like a fainting couch. Yeah yeah,

859
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:03,359
Speaker 2: but uh yeah, like if you started to eat before

860
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 2: your girl, that was probably never coming because your body wasn't.

861
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 2: But like that then somebody and Indonesia could die.

862
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 1: And that's the butterfly effect. And you did it right.

863
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 3: Like if if you just eat one bite too much,

864
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:18,880
Speaker 3: you could kill people.

865
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:22,280
Speaker 2: That's a perfect recipe for like the worst mental disorders

866
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:22,840
Speaker 2: I've ever.

867
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 1: Heard of in my life. Believable.

868
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 2: Did people ever die, like die or get hospitalized from

869
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:31,319
Speaker 2: restricting themselves so much? Not that I knew of while

870
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,320
Speaker 2: I was in That's lucky, that's a lucky chance.

871
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, there was the one of the anonymous women who

872
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 4: I do know and I'm not gonna you know, blow

873
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 4: or cover, but she did get very ill, like she

874
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:46,400
Speaker 4: did I but that was after I had left, you know,

875
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,839
Speaker 4: But I remember her, and you know, she was very thin,

876
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:53,320
Speaker 4: you know, and it makes sense that that all happened

877
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:56,400
Speaker 4: to her because you know, we didn't focus on nutrition.

878
00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:59,280
Speaker 4: We just focused on eating whatever the heck you wanted.

879
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,880
Speaker 4: And I mean I don't necessarily say doing whatever you wanted,

880
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 4: but you know, doing whatever Gwen wanted.

881
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:06,320
Speaker 1: Correct.

882
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like Gwen wasn't big on like exercising or like

883
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 4: you know, I guess essentially taking care of yourself. I

884
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 4: guess she figured that if you weren't eating as much,

885
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:17,360
Speaker 4: then that just everything's took care of itself.

886
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 3: That's the only parameter for health. Okay, Yeah, yeah.

887
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 2: This is kind of a question that's just burning from

888
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 2: my soul. But like, was her hair just growing as

889
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 2: her power grew? Like how was that hairstyle morphing with her?

890
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:33,759
Speaker 1: Yeah?

891
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 4: So when I saw her, you know when back in

892
00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:38,279
Speaker 4: desert Oasis and wait on times, her hair was not

893
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 4: like that at all.

894
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 1: No.

895
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:42,880
Speaker 2: Really, by the time Remnant rolled around, that's when the

896
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 2: hair grew huge.

897
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:47,320
Speaker 1: And I feel like it did get bigger over the years.

898
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 2: Closer to Heaven, I mean, I've never seen hair like that.

899
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:55,240
Speaker 2: It's crazy in my life. If you have not seen

900
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 2: Gwen's hair, you are missing a big piece of the puzzle.

901
00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:02,439
Speaker 1: Immediately.

902
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 2: Did anyone else in the church try to like imitate

903
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:06,840
Speaker 2: her hairstyle?

904
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 1: Yeah? Oh, all the women. No, all the women tried

905
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 1: to Oh, I even try to tease my hair. I'll

906
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:13,359
Speaker 1: really tell you something. My hair can't get that big.

907
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:13,719
Speaker 2: Yeah.

908
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:14,959
Speaker 1: No, I mean and.

909
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:17,840
Speaker 2: Right right, no, no.

910
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 1: Oh, she had bumpets. Go Laura in there. That wasn't

911
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 1: all her meal hair.

912
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:23,719
Speaker 4: My friend Laura she did she did her hair, and

913
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 4: she and my mom did her I'm pretty sure my mom.

914
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 4: I'll have dad double check with my mom. I might

915
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:29,279
Speaker 4: be missed speaking, but I know Laura. She said it

916
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 4: was the regiment she had, and I think she just

917
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 4: had really thick hair. I don't know how she maintained

918
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 4: that thick hair with the way.

919
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:36,240
Speaker 1: She ate, but it was all natural.

920
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 2: Wow.

921
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 4: She said there was a way she washed and dried,

922
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 4: and she fought her hair, and there was a strict

923
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:45,320
Speaker 4: regiment and routine that she had to be able to

924
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:46,360
Speaker 4: get that kind of volume.

925
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 1: Fascinating. So that's that's just what I've been told.

926
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 3: I don't know, well, I would trust you over my

927
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:54,720
Speaker 3: assumption that she's got ten buffets and there.

928
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:57,359
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess we'll talk about this when kind

929
00:44:57,400 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 2: of your shelf breaks. But I'm interested if there's like

930
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,879
Speaker 2: a point and a deconstruction where you're like, holy shit,

931
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 2: that hair looks insane. We'll get to it. But like

932
00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:08,800
Speaker 2: I'm just wondering if there's.

933
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 1: That moment, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll get yeah.

934
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:11,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

935
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:12,960
Speaker 3: So you're kind of you were kind of in and

936
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:15,960
Speaker 3: out of the church depending on where you were at

937
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 3: in your life, right, like you would kind of end

938
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:18,759
Speaker 3: up back in it.

939
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 1: Yeah.

940
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 4: I wasn't equipped to be an adult, Like, I wasn't

941
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:27,800
Speaker 4: given those tools, and so I kind of ping ponged

942
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 4: between my dad and my mom. So if I left

943
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 4: my mom, I I would call my dad and be like, Dad,

944
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:35,919
Speaker 4: I can't I need help, like get me out of here.

945
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:40,400
Speaker 4: So after that camp, I think right after that is

946
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:44,280
Speaker 4: when I had decided to leave. I don't remember exactly.

947
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 4: I think what made me finally make that decision was

948
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:48,240
Speaker 4: not being able to go to Nashville.

949
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 1: And I said, that's it. You know what am I

950
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:52,280
Speaker 1: doing all this for? If I can't progress?

951
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:55,440
Speaker 4: Like I can't live here forever, you know, I have

952
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 4: to do something with my life. You couldn't even go

953
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:03,280
Speaker 4: to college with that consulting leadership, you know, and getting

954
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 4: permission from your parents, like it was that strict. So

955
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 4: it was really frustrating. I'm like, I can't live like

956
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:11,879
Speaker 4: this anymore if the goalposts were going to keep moving.

957
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 4: So I called my dad and I said, Dad, I

958
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 4: need help. Can you help me figure out how to

959
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 4: get out of here? I can't do this anymore? And

960
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:21,800
Speaker 4: he came down and helped me move. And I moved

961
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:24,360
Speaker 4: to the town I'm in now and had a little apartment.

962
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:26,839
Speaker 4: Like they helped me, you know, get that and get

963
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 4: settled and gave me a car to use. And so

964
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:31,959
Speaker 4: I was living up here for.

965
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 1: A little bit.

966
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:32,840
Speaker 4: You know.

967
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:34,320
Speaker 1: I remember my first apartment.

968
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 4: This is my first apartment I own, you know, without

969
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 4: you know, anyone happened to live with me.

970
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 1: And it was the cutest little place. And there was

971
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:42,879
Speaker 1: a cardinal on a picture of a cardinal on the wall.

972
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 4: And I remember writing to my mom going, you know,

973
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 4: this seems to me like a sign from God that

974
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 4: I'm doing the right thing. There's a cardinal in the

975
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 4: apartment that I'm running and she you know, to paraphrase.

976
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:55,360
Speaker 4: I don't remember what the letter said, but basically it

977
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:57,799
Speaker 4: was very much like, no, you're not You're not under

978
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:00,399
Speaker 4: God's authority. You've left his message, You're going to hell.

979
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:04,840
Speaker 4: You're being deceived. I hate that one. I chose the world,

980
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 4: you know, so not bad message, and of course that

981
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:12,400
Speaker 4: fucks with you. Yeah, you know, and it sucks with

982
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:15,799
Speaker 4: you hard, and you don't I didn't realize at the

983
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:18,800
Speaker 4: time how much I was indoctrinated to the message.

984
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 1: I didn't know about that back then.

985
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:24,080
Speaker 4: The only ex exposure I ever knew about Colts was

986
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:27,839
Speaker 4: you know, Jim Jones and heaven Gate. And this didn't

987
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:29,799
Speaker 4: feel like it, you know, it just felt like a

988
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 4: really strict church. During that time, I ended up meeting

989
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 4: my oldest son's dad and you know, got pregnant, and

990
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:39,239
Speaker 4: I remember everyone being very upset about it.

991
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 1: I'm sure, you know, I was twenty one, you know,

992
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:44,560
Speaker 1: I understand, you know, I mean, we weren't.

993
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 4: We were barely together for that long, and here I

994
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 4: am pregnant and I'm scared out of my mind. But

995
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 4: it felt right, you know. I knew what I had

996
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:54,520
Speaker 4: to do, and you know, I tried to do it,

997
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 4: but of course, you know that doubt would creep back in.

998
00:47:57,239 --> 00:47:59,000
Speaker 4: So now I'm bringing this life into the world and

999
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:01,320
Speaker 4: I'm not right with God, I'm not in this message,

1000
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:04,239
Speaker 4: right What's that going to do to my child? And

1001
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 4: so that's that's scary, and you know, am I going

1002
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:09,280
Speaker 4: to be a good mother? And it was really hard,

1003
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:12,760
Speaker 4: so being twenty one pregnant and kind of the relationship

1004
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:15,759
Speaker 4: I wouldn't say was completely unstable, but we didn't really

1005
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 4: know each other, and you know, we all had our

1006
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 4: own baggage and it.

1007
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:20,560
Speaker 1: Was just a mess. It was the whole thing.

1008
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:22,839
Speaker 2: A life is hard enough on its own, and then

1009
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 2: to add these really strict belief systems and it just

1010
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:27,759
Speaker 2: makes it impossible.

1011
00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 3: That puts you on the end of the punishment stick.

1012
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:32,880
Speaker 3: It's a weird way to freeze that.

1013
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 1: But you know, no all the time, yeah, yeah, I mean.

1014
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:39,120
Speaker 4: I just felt like everything in my life was happening.

1015
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:40,799
Speaker 4: And you know, and they say this to you, if

1016
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 4: you leave, you know, you'll gain all the weight back you.

1017
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:45,759
Speaker 4: All of these bad things will happen because you chose

1018
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:49,560
Speaker 4: to leave God's message. So you know, I wouldn't necessarily

1019
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 4: say everything bad was happening, but you know, I believed it.

1020
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:56,439
Speaker 4: So I remember, I just like got to a point

1021
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 4: where I know I'd referenced it in what I wrote

1022
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 4: first Watch, but you know, I watched this.

1023
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 1: Movie at constantine.

1024
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:05,160
Speaker 4: I think Gabriel till this one's character, you know, had said,

1025
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 4: you know, you know what the truth is. You know

1026
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:09,239
Speaker 4: why why do you turn your back from it? Or

1027
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:11,399
Speaker 4: is something to that effect, And I was like, oh

1028
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:13,759
Speaker 4: my god, I need to go back. So I called

1029
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:17,680
Speaker 4: my mom and we tried to convince Ben's dad, my

1030
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 4: son's dad, to come with us, but he was like no,

1031
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:21,799
Speaker 4: and you know, I don't want to do that, Like

1032
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:25,080
Speaker 4: he had some sense at the end of the day,

1033
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:27,279
Speaker 4: but he chose not to come back. And then I

1034
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:31,160
Speaker 4: moved back to Marion with my mom and all my

1035
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:33,919
Speaker 4: siblings and my stepdad. And then a few months later

1036
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:36,480
Speaker 4: I was cleared to move to Nashville and that's where

1037
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:38,920
Speaker 4: I had been, and I was back in remnant again.

1038
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 1: Wow, in and out and in and out.

1039
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:44,399
Speaker 3: I mean, it makes you know, it seems like you're

1040
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 3: following this trajectory that's very common, which is that when

1041
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,759
Speaker 3: you are in a place of vulnerability, in need, in

1042
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:53,600
Speaker 3: your life. When you don't have structure, you're you know

1043
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:57,360
Speaker 3: there's some big shift in your life or a fear

1044
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:00,879
Speaker 3: of something like there it's kind of just waiting there

1045
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:04,440
Speaker 3: for you to be something to structure your life and

1046
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:05,400
Speaker 3: your belief system.

1047
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:07,960
Speaker 1: Well, I became a self fulfilling prophecy too.

1048
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:11,239
Speaker 4: You know, I believe that I was wrong in what

1049
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:14,279
Speaker 4: I was doing, so you know, eventually I'll see every

1050
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:16,360
Speaker 4: little thing like you become chicken little and you're like,

1051
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 4: oh my God, like I'm going to hell because I'm not.

1052
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:21,880
Speaker 4: You know what they don't I two do, which is interesting.

1053
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:24,640
Speaker 4: They go, something bad happens to you when you leave?

1054
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:26,600
Speaker 4: They go, that was because you left.

1055
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:30,759
Speaker 2: If something bad happens to you while you're in, they go,

1056
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 2: that was to teach you a lesson.

1057
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:36,680
Speaker 1: And I always found that so unfair.

1058
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:39,600
Speaker 2: It's like it's a loop.

1059
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:42,160
Speaker 1: I can't win. And if something good happens when you leave,

1060
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:43,759
Speaker 1: how do they false peace?

1061
00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:47,319
Speaker 2: That's like you you don't have real peace, and you

1062
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:49,759
Speaker 2: think you have peace, but it's just an emptiness. And

1063
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 2: you're right, it's a self fulfilling prophecy because you're like,

1064
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:53,959
Speaker 2: is this not real?

1065
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:56,440
Speaker 3: And like they told me, i'd feel bad. Now, I

1066
00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:58,719
Speaker 3: feel bad. They must have been telling the truth.

1067
00:50:58,719 --> 00:50:59,720
Speaker 1: And again, it's very.

1068
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:01,239
Speaker 2: Easy feel bad as a human being.

1069
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:04,959
Speaker 4: It's very scary, especially if you're a woman.

1070
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:09,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the mother and like, yeah, there's right ways

1071
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:10,359
Speaker 1: to feel bad.

1072
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:13,120
Speaker 3: And on the flip side too, there if they're going

1073
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:16,360
Speaker 3: to tell you that you're gonna feel good in the program.

1074
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:18,840
Speaker 3: And of course any time you are in the midst

1075
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:21,439
Speaker 3: of a community that's offering you structure, there are going

1076
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 3: to be moments where you feel good or they wouldn't

1077
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:26,440
Speaker 3: be able to attract.

1078
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:28,879
Speaker 2: Huge dopamine heads with that structure for sure.

1079
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:30,279
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the.

1080
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:33,439
Speaker 4: Love bombing was always just off the charts. Like when

1081
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 4: remnat was first introduced to me, everyone knew who I. Well,

1082
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:38,359
Speaker 4: the people in our chapter knew who I was. They

1083
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:41,640
Speaker 4: know me since I was little, But like people outside

1084
00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:44,319
Speaker 4: of our Marian group knew who I was because Mom

1085
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:47,440
Speaker 4: had been talking to me, to every about me to everyone,

1086
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:53,400
Speaker 4: and that was you know, who doesn't like attention? Yeah yeah,

1087
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:56,120
Speaker 4: and I was starved for it, so like I ate

1088
00:51:56,160 --> 00:51:58,480
Speaker 4: it up every time, and you know, every time I went,

1089
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:01,280
Speaker 4: you know, left and came back, Like I made bonds

1090
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:04,560
Speaker 4: with people and you know, and I believe they're all.

1091
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,040
Speaker 4: I miss a lot of them, I do, and I

1092
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:09,520
Speaker 4: remember a lot of the times with them very fondly.

1093
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:15,239
Speaker 4: But my heart also breaks because life, to me is

1094
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:17,719
Speaker 4: so much better on the other side than it took

1095
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 4: a while to get there where I was in a

1096
00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:21,760
Speaker 4: good place. But you know, even through all the turmoil everything,

1097
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:24,880
Speaker 4: like they say a lot, living living in God's box,

1098
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 4: God's boundaries is so much freer than living out in

1099
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:30,520
Speaker 4: the world, and I gotta say that's a bunch of

1100
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:30,879
Speaker 4: bull shit.

1101
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 2: I got to say, you know what I mean, Like, yeah,

1102
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:38,720
Speaker 2: if you're in a box, in your box, there's nothing

1103
00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:41,440
Speaker 2: free about being in a box now, and I'm pretty

1104
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:43,360
Speaker 2: sure God doesn't want us to live in a box. No, No,

1105
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:47,360
Speaker 2: how did you how did the cracks officially begin to form?

1106
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:50,880
Speaker 2: How did you really see that this was not for you?

1107
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:55,360
Speaker 4: Well, what was getting really frustrating for me was, you know,

1108
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:57,520
Speaker 4: I'm trying again, I'm trying to prove myself. This is

1109
00:52:57,600 --> 00:52:59,520
Speaker 4: the last time I was in you know, coming back

1110
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:05,040
Speaker 4: out of wedlock was very It wasn't great like I was.

1111
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:08,680
Speaker 4: I wouldn't necessarily say shunned, but I definitely didn't get

1112
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:11,759
Speaker 4: you know, the nice things that other girls would get, like,

1113
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:13,560
Speaker 4: you know, the girls would be able to have boyfriends

1114
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:15,960
Speaker 4: and be able to do all the things, and I

1115
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:18,279
Speaker 4: had to just be sitting there with my baby. Which

1116
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:20,839
Speaker 4: I'm not going to complain, Like, I absolutely adored all

1117
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:22,440
Speaker 4: those moments with my children, but there was still a

1118
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:25,880
Speaker 4: level of being shunned there that never really went away.

1119
00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:27,880
Speaker 4: So I worked extra hard to prove to them. So

1120
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 4: anytime anything came up, I went to whatever leader I

1121
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:32,000
Speaker 4: could and say, Hey, this.

1122
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 1: Is going on. What should I do?

1123
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:36,880
Speaker 4: You know, like Ben's dad's family is contacting me. You know,

1124
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:39,239
Speaker 4: my family's contacting me. What do I do? You know,

1125
00:53:39,640 --> 00:53:43,000
Speaker 4: how do I navigate this? And you know, I would listen.

1126
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:45,480
Speaker 4: I would eat up everything that they said because I'm like,

1127
00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:47,960
Speaker 4: I got to really listen and apply everything they're telling me.

1128
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:50,959
Speaker 4: Like I even went to leadership to say I wanted

1129
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:51,920
Speaker 4: to go to massage school?

1130
00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:52,759
Speaker 1: Can I can I do that?

1131
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:55,920
Speaker 4: And waited till they told me I had to go

1132
00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:59,360
Speaker 4: ahead and just constant.

1133
00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:01,680
Speaker 1: Whatever they told me, you know, so I would do.

1134
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:03,879
Speaker 4: And I think what finally got frustrating, what really wore

1135
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:05,760
Speaker 4: me down, was you know, I was staying at home

1136
00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:10,080
Speaker 4: with my son and my little brother who they're lessening

1137
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:14,600
Speaker 4: year apart. I was essentially the man, and the expectations

1138
00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:16,960
Speaker 4: weren't really laid out very clearly for me. I just

1139
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:18,920
Speaker 4: I did what I knew how to do. You know,

1140
00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:21,080
Speaker 4: keep the house clean, keep the babies clean and fed,

1141
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:23,520
Speaker 4: and you know, take care of the other kids, cook

1142
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:26,799
Speaker 4: for them if I had to do laundry, things like that,

1143
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:29,719
Speaker 4: and you know, my sisters would try to help me,

1144
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:33,680
Speaker 4: and and that helping things would get damaged, and it,

1145
00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:37,160
Speaker 4: unfortunately always ended up being something of my mother's and

1146
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:38,640
Speaker 4: I would get the blame for it, and I would

1147
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:40,080
Speaker 4: take it, and I would take it and I would

1148
00:54:40,080 --> 00:54:43,400
Speaker 4: take it, and eventually there was a breaking point. And

1149
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:45,200
Speaker 4: I know a friend of my friend of mine from

1150
00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:47,640
Speaker 4: high school, and again this was the social media back then,

1151
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:50,600
Speaker 4: was my Space. Yeah, I had a secret my Space.

1152
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:52,239
Speaker 4: We weren't supposed to have that. I think we did

1153
00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:53,960
Speaker 4: all have my Space at one time, all the youth

1154
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:57,200
Speaker 4: and remnant. But they found it to be bad, so

1155
00:54:57,239 --> 00:55:04,000
Speaker 4: they banned it. But I still kept mine rock and roll, and.

1156
00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:05,520
Speaker 1: I got really good at learning how to delete histories

1157
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:06,200
Speaker 1: and things like that.

1158
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:12,800
Speaker 4: Nice and that's why I kept in contact with everybody.

1159
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:15,080
Speaker 4: And I remember a girl from high school who I

1160
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:17,840
Speaker 4: used to be friends with. She had messaged me and

1161
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:19,640
Speaker 4: she's like, you're in a cult, you know. And I

1162
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:21,360
Speaker 4: was like, what are you talking about, lady? This is

1163
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:24,640
Speaker 4: I'm not like again because the only reference we had,

1164
00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:28,279
Speaker 4: at least I had was again extreme references, right, and

1165
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 4: this didn't feel like that.

1166
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:31,440
Speaker 1: And I was like, that doesn't make any sense, like

1167
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:33,719
Speaker 1: I'm on a call. But you know, thanks, you know

1168
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:35,480
Speaker 1: what I just realized.

1169
00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:38,560
Speaker 2: Of course, also you didn't because it was a perfect

1170
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:43,920
Speaker 2: lineup of like time and history and this exact message,

1171
00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:47,640
Speaker 2: where any other time in the world that people were

1172
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:50,279
Speaker 2: starving themselves that much, other people might be like, hey,

1173
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:52,920
Speaker 2: this is kind of weird, but the diet culture was

1174
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:57,080
Speaker 2: so strong at that exact point in time that you're

1175
00:55:57,160 --> 00:55:58,040
Speaker 2: not seeing that.

1176
00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:01,000
Speaker 1: This is really extreme because it wasn't.

1177
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:04,080
Speaker 4: No, well again, I didn't see it because I was

1178
00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:06,640
Speaker 4: only involved with people in the church. I was at

1179
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:08,880
Speaker 4: home all day every day, and if I wasn't at home,

1180
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:12,200
Speaker 4: I was at the church or at someone's house, you know, visiting,

1181
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:15,400
Speaker 4: or at the church doing church or Bible study or whatever.

1182
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:18,360
Speaker 1: I was constantly my time was constantly being consumed by

1183
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:19,280
Speaker 1: renant fellowship.

1184
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:23,000
Speaker 4: So I didn't have an out like I had the

1185
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:25,560
Speaker 4: MySpace page, but I didn't have like other outlets, like

1186
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:27,920
Speaker 4: I couldn't really see everything else.

1187
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:32,480
Speaker 3: Right to compare it to healthier situations.

1188
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:37,000
Speaker 4: Right, So what started happening was going to massage school.

1189
00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:39,600
Speaker 4: People would ask me, and I would feel really awkward

1190
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:42,080
Speaker 4: and like, you know, I didn't want to talk about

1191
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:44,200
Speaker 4: it because I'm like, they might find this weird. I

1192
00:56:44,280 --> 00:56:46,279
Speaker 4: was like, well, if you're happy about something it's really

1193
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:48,160
Speaker 4: working for you shouldn't feel that way, right, Like you

1194
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:49,640
Speaker 4: should feel happy about it.

1195
00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:50,640
Speaker 1: It should feel natural.

1196
00:56:50,719 --> 00:56:53,279
Speaker 4: And you know, I feel guilty about you know, not

1197
00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:54,920
Speaker 4: because you were supposed to proselytize.

1198
00:56:54,920 --> 00:56:56,520
Speaker 1: You know, you're supposed to be Oh, you know, this

1199
00:56:56,600 --> 00:56:57,160
Speaker 1: is what I do.

1200
00:56:57,280 --> 00:57:00,960
Speaker 4: And you know, eventually like lure, people like I wouldn't

1201
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:04,279
Speaker 4: talk about it outside of remnant. But the final the

1202
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:09,280
Speaker 4: shelf breaking was so my son and my brother Lessen

1203
00:57:09,440 --> 00:57:12,759
Speaker 4: or Apart, you know, gave had turned one. We were trying.

1204
00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:14,719
Speaker 4: I was trying to get him off sippy cups. He

1205
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:17,320
Speaker 4: wanted the bottle. I during the day would get him

1206
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:19,560
Speaker 4: to drink out of sippy cups. But my work would

1207
00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:21,760
Speaker 4: be undone at night because everyone would give him bottle

1208
00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:26,040
Speaker 4: m and I was like, oh my god. And one

1209
00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:29,120
Speaker 4: of the girls packed, you know, gave cyperbag for church

1210
00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 4: and put a bottle in there, and I got the

1211
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:34,280
Speaker 4: blame for it the next day, and I.

1212
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:35,720
Speaker 1: Just was like, I didn't do it.

1213
00:57:35,880 --> 00:57:37,760
Speaker 4: You know, I just was fed up at this point,

1214
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:40,360
Speaker 4: like I didn't do it. And I'm sure I rolled

1215
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:44,200
Speaker 4: my eyes and went, which drives my mom nuts. And

1216
00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:46,840
Speaker 4: you know, then came the how dare you talk to

1217
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:49,240
Speaker 4: me this way in my own home? I am your authority,

1218
00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:52,520
Speaker 4: you know, who do you think you are? And then

1219
00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:54,600
Speaker 4: she goes, I'm going to take away your cell phone.

1220
00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:56,560
Speaker 4: You know, you're in so much trouble. And I was

1221
00:57:56,640 --> 00:57:58,800
Speaker 4: like whatever, and I went upstairs or groun my cell phone,

1222
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:00,320
Speaker 4: and then halfway up the stairs, I go, I'm not

1223
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:03,240
Speaker 4: giving it to you. It's fine, I'm not doing it.

1224
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:09,160
Speaker 4: And then I'll hall burk loose. Well, yeah, I They

1225
00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:12,240
Speaker 4: fought me for the phone and I fought back, and uh,

1226
00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:14,840
Speaker 4: there were marks left on me. And I called a

1227
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:17,480
Speaker 4: friend back in Ohio and I said, you're not gonna

1228
00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:19,880
Speaker 4: believe what just happened. I'm leaving out a lot really

1229
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:23,120
Speaker 4: with that, so like essentially being assaulted to take a phone.

1230
00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:24,080
Speaker 1: She did take the phone.

1231
00:58:24,640 --> 00:58:27,920
Speaker 4: I remember at one point I'm sobbing and she's holding

1232
00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:32,000
Speaker 4: my son in her arms and like looming over me, going,

1233
00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:33,840
Speaker 4: you know, you don't deserve to be a mom. You're

1234
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:35,840
Speaker 4: a bad mom because you don't obey. And that that

1235
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:39,320
Speaker 4: happened a lot too. It is a manipulation tactic.

1236
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:41,160
Speaker 2: It's a nightmare.

1237
00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:45,960
Speaker 4: It really is, like he's crying for me, and you know,

1238
00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:48,400
Speaker 4: I want my baby, like, you know, well, thank you.

1239
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:51,720
Speaker 4: I it was it's just not okay to do, you know,

1240
00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:54,360
Speaker 4: especially to a young any mother, you know.

1241
00:58:54,480 --> 00:58:55,800
Speaker 1: But it was bad.

1242
00:58:55,880 --> 00:58:59,000
Speaker 4: So I called the friend in Ohio and I'm like,

1243
00:58:59,040 --> 00:58:59,880
Speaker 4: this is what happened.

1244
00:58:59,880 --> 00:59:00,920
Speaker 1: I don't know what to do.

1245
00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:03,800
Speaker 4: She took my phone like she's threatening to take away

1246
00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:06,280
Speaker 4: my son, and she said call the cops.

1247
00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:08,680
Speaker 1: And I said, oh my god, no, I couldn't do that.

1248
00:59:09,320 --> 00:59:09,840
Speaker 1: I couldn't.

1249
00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:11,680
Speaker 4: There was there's a remnant in our neighborhood. There was

1250
00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:15,919
Speaker 4: remnant people everywhere, you know, they would see and I said,

1251
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:17,880
Speaker 4: I can't, I can't call them. And again I don't

1252
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:22,000
Speaker 4: remember who who ended up calling, but the cops came

1253
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:24,560
Speaker 4: and they took pictures of you know, there's marks on

1254
00:59:24,560 --> 00:59:28,360
Speaker 4: my face and on my neck, and they'd ask me

1255
00:59:28,400 --> 00:59:29,880
Speaker 4: what had happened, and I explained to them, you know,

1256
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:34,120
Speaker 4: she took my FID. I mouthed off and you know,

1257
00:59:34,560 --> 00:59:36,520
Speaker 4: rolled my eyes and you know, said I wasn't going

1258
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:38,880
Speaker 4: to give him my phone. And the one cop goes,

1259
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:41,440
Speaker 4: how old are you? And I said twenty two? And

1260
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:43,520
Speaker 4: he looked at me and I said, don't. I don't

1261
00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:46,880
Speaker 4: want to talk about it because you also weren't allowed

1262
00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:50,040
Speaker 4: to say anything negative about Remnant because God would strike

1263
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:52,920
Speaker 4: you down because people that belonged to Remnant, you know,

1264
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:57,280
Speaker 4: God's message are saints, and God won't tolerate slander against

1265
00:59:57,320 --> 00:59:57,840
Speaker 4: his people.

1266
00:59:58,560 --> 01:00:00,960
Speaker 1: So I didn't want him to to bring anything. I

1267
01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:01,560
Speaker 1: just I don't.

1268
01:00:01,600 --> 01:00:04,439
Speaker 4: I don't't talk about it, just I understand. At this point,

1269
01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:07,080
Speaker 4: I just want to know, can I get my son?

1270
01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:08,800
Speaker 4: Can I get what I can fit in my car?

1271
01:00:09,040 --> 01:00:09,560
Speaker 1: Can I go?

1272
01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:12,600
Speaker 4: And they're like yeah, And they managed to get my

1273
01:00:12,640 --> 01:00:14,080
Speaker 4: mom to come back home from work to give me

1274
01:00:14,120 --> 01:00:16,200
Speaker 4: back my phone. They told her that was theft because

1275
01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:18,520
Speaker 4: it wasn't in her name, it was my phone, and

1276
01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:21,760
Speaker 4: they stayed while I just threw everything I could in

1277
01:00:21,880 --> 01:00:24,880
Speaker 4: bags and just stuffed my car full and I put

1278
01:00:25,240 --> 01:00:27,480
Speaker 4: my he was just over a year old. I put

1279
01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:29,360
Speaker 4: my one year old son in my car and drove

1280
01:00:29,560 --> 01:00:31,080
Speaker 4: with nothing back to Ohio.

1281
01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:34,520
Speaker 2: Wow, what did it feel like to drive away from that?

1282
01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:34,920
Speaker 4: Like?

1283
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:35,960
Speaker 2: What was that feeling?

1284
01:00:36,880 --> 01:00:41,000
Speaker 1: Awful? I had nowhere to go? I didn't really there

1285
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:42,040
Speaker 1: was no solid plane.

1286
01:00:42,120 --> 01:00:45,320
Speaker 4: I just got out of there, and I was crying

1287
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:48,280
Speaker 4: the whole way there because I thought, this is it.

1288
01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:51,120
Speaker 1: I doomed best to hell? You know, this is you know,

1289
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:51,640
Speaker 1: I don't know.

1290
01:00:52,760 --> 01:00:58,919
Speaker 4: Yeah, sorry, No, it was terrifying because that's all I'd known.

1291
01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:02,240
Speaker 4: And you know, they beat it into you that leaving

1292
01:01:02,240 --> 01:01:04,080
Speaker 4: that message means you're doomed.

1293
01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:06,360
Speaker 1: You're going to hell. That's just your prayers will hit

1294
01:01:06,360 --> 01:01:09,040
Speaker 1: the ceiling and you're done. Oh my gosh.

1295
01:01:09,080 --> 01:01:11,360
Speaker 2: And the auntie so turned up with with having a

1296
01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:13,200
Speaker 2: kid too, you know, oh my gosh.

1297
01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:15,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's when it gets doubled, don't you worried about

1298
01:01:15,720 --> 01:01:19,680
Speaker 1: their salvation? It's disaster. So you went to a friend's

1299
01:01:20,040 --> 01:01:21,040
Speaker 1: place or where did you go?

1300
01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:24,960
Speaker 4: So the friend that I had called it told me

1301
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:28,439
Speaker 4: to call the cops. She western me to me eighty

1302
01:01:28,480 --> 01:01:30,440
Speaker 4: bucks probably like eighty bucks to get up there. And

1303
01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:32,640
Speaker 4: I use credit cards and stuff which I would not

1304
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:35,800
Speaker 4: recommend kids becually not having a dog.

1305
01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:38,000
Speaker 1: Hey, when you're staping a cole, you know, you do

1306
01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:40,400
Speaker 1: what you gotta do. Yeah.

1307
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:43,320
Speaker 4: So she was staying with a friend of hers and

1308
01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:46,800
Speaker 4: they let me crash on the couch, so she kind

1309
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:48,960
Speaker 4: of wherever she went. I kind of crashed with her.

1310
01:01:49,120 --> 01:01:50,680
Speaker 4: Was a couch surfer for a while and then I

1311
01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:55,560
Speaker 4: met I met a guy and through her, and it's

1312
01:01:55,600 --> 01:01:59,280
Speaker 4: really it's very twisting, convoluted, but he I was desperate

1313
01:01:59,440 --> 01:02:04,320
Speaker 4: for stability and love and every everything I wanted to

1314
01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:06,800
Speaker 4: I couldn't have. I wanted a father figure for Ben,

1315
01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:08,919
Speaker 4: you know, I wanted all these things, and he said

1316
01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:10,880
Speaker 4: all the right things. And then we got married immediately

1317
01:02:12,040 --> 01:02:15,120
Speaker 4: in December. I left in November and we got married

1318
01:02:15,200 --> 01:02:18,439
Speaker 4: like maybe a month later. Wow, we barely knew each other,

1319
01:02:18,840 --> 01:02:20,320
Speaker 4: And I just thought it was so romantic.

1320
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:24,040
Speaker 3: It makes total sense that you would exit the situation

1321
01:02:24,240 --> 01:02:27,720
Speaker 3: and be flailing and be like searching for stability. And

1322
01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:30,040
Speaker 3: people do end up cult hopping frequently when they're in

1323
01:02:30,080 --> 01:02:33,040
Speaker 3: your situation, they end up in another either cult or

1324
01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:35,720
Speaker 3: high control group or abusive relationship. I mean, that's very,

1325
01:02:35,800 --> 01:02:40,360
Speaker 3: very common, and it makes total sense, like your whole worldview,

1326
01:02:40,400 --> 01:02:43,320
Speaker 3: your whole framework, your whole stability in life has just

1327
01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:47,080
Speaker 3: been completely overturned, and especially when you're broke, which really

1328
01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:52,200
Speaker 3: my mom was after our cult experience, and it's it's

1329
01:02:52,200 --> 01:02:53,960
Speaker 3: a nightmare when you have nowhere to go and you

1330
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:56,320
Speaker 3: don't have enough money and you don't know, you know,

1331
01:02:56,400 --> 01:02:59,640
Speaker 3: it's just like and when somebody has it's a.

1332
01:02:59,560 --> 01:03:01,520
Speaker 2: Perfect you know it really is.

1333
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:04,400
Speaker 4: Yes, Yeah, and that's what it felt like too, you

1334
01:03:04,400 --> 01:03:07,440
Speaker 4: know it was I think what pushed me over the

1335
01:03:07,600 --> 01:03:10,560
Speaker 4: edge that, you know, and pushed me further towards that

1336
01:03:10,600 --> 01:03:16,280
Speaker 4: abusive relationship was my dad. I pulled into his driveway

1337
01:03:16,360 --> 01:03:19,120
Speaker 4: to see him, and he came out of his house

1338
01:03:19,160 --> 01:03:21,240
Speaker 4: screaming at me to get away and to stay away

1339
01:03:21,240 --> 01:03:22,200
Speaker 4: from him and his family.

1340
01:03:22,800 --> 01:03:24,480
Speaker 1: So I thought the whole family hated me.

1341
01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:28,360
Speaker 4: Now remnant, Did I do the right thing every time

1342
01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:31,080
Speaker 4: by just kind of disappearing into the night, essentially, I

1343
01:03:31,080 --> 01:03:35,440
Speaker 4: don't know, you know, who's to say at this point, really,

1344
01:03:35,520 --> 01:03:37,920
Speaker 4: you know, I could have explained something to somebody or whatever.

1345
01:03:37,960 --> 01:03:40,360
Speaker 4: I don't know, but I just I didn't. I never did.

1346
01:03:40,360 --> 01:03:42,720
Speaker 4: I just took off and that hurt them. And I

1347
01:03:42,840 --> 01:03:45,760
Speaker 4: understand if there's hurt there, but you know, here I

1348
01:03:45,800 --> 01:03:48,280
Speaker 4: am with my child and you're turning me away. You know,

1349
01:03:48,920 --> 01:03:53,080
Speaker 4: that was really tough. Eventually they did let me come back,

1350
01:03:53,320 --> 01:03:56,120
Speaker 4: but you know it was not great either, but it

1351
01:03:56,160 --> 01:03:57,920
Speaker 4: was something until I was able to get up on

1352
01:03:58,000 --> 01:03:58,640
Speaker 4: the end two feet.

1353
01:03:59,080 --> 01:04:03,080
Speaker 1: Now, what a journey you have been on. Absolutely, I

1354
01:04:03,080 --> 01:04:05,560
Speaker 1: feel like I've lived so many lifetimes. I'm very tired.

1355
01:04:08,120 --> 01:04:11,959
Speaker 2: I want to ask about how you found out Gwen

1356
01:04:12,080 --> 01:04:15,160
Speaker 2: had died, Like was that I mean, did you think

1357
01:04:15,160 --> 01:04:17,040
Speaker 2: of her as almost a prophet at some point?

1358
01:04:17,200 --> 01:04:17,320
Speaker 4: Like?

1359
01:04:17,400 --> 01:04:18,280
Speaker 1: What?

1360
01:04:18,280 --> 01:04:18,800
Speaker 2: What was that?

1361
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:22,280
Speaker 4: Like? I definitely felt that God was talking through her,

1362
01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:24,880
Speaker 4: that she really knew what she was doing.

1363
01:04:25,200 --> 01:04:27,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know how I feel about prophet.

1364
01:04:27,640 --> 01:04:29,760
Speaker 4: Necessarily she would be like, oh, people say that, but

1365
01:04:29,840 --> 01:04:30,640
Speaker 4: I'm not a prophet.

1366
01:04:30,640 --> 01:04:32,200
Speaker 1: But you knew she thought that.

1367
01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:35,680
Speaker 4: Right, And like one of her Way Down series, Like

1368
01:04:36,080 --> 01:04:38,240
Speaker 4: I don't necessarily want to call it way down extreme.

1369
01:04:38,280 --> 01:04:40,160
Speaker 4: I think that might have been a joke in Remnant.

1370
01:04:40,200 --> 01:04:42,000
Speaker 4: I'm not one hundred percent for sure. There was like

1371
01:04:42,040 --> 01:04:46,720
Speaker 4: a kind of a very intense Way Down series and

1372
01:04:46,800 --> 01:04:49,000
Speaker 4: I think in that series she talked about she predicted

1373
01:04:49,040 --> 01:04:51,960
Speaker 4: nine to eleven, you know, so she definitely drank her employe.

1374
01:04:52,120 --> 01:04:54,080
Speaker 1: But I'm sorry.

1375
01:04:54,120 --> 01:04:56,520
Speaker 4: I think I got off on a change and I apologized. No,

1376
01:04:57,160 --> 01:04:59,000
Speaker 4: what was done to me is that was at the cost.

1377
01:04:59,040 --> 01:05:00,760
Speaker 2: I was just wondering what it was like to see

1378
01:05:00,800 --> 01:05:03,960
Speaker 2: this person had passed away.

1379
01:05:04,160 --> 01:05:05,600
Speaker 1: You know, it's so funny. I was just talking about

1380
01:05:05,600 --> 01:05:08,960
Speaker 1: this today. In fact, it was I.

1381
01:05:09,120 --> 01:05:12,120
Speaker 4: Mourned more for the people in the plane with her

1382
01:05:12,720 --> 01:05:15,200
Speaker 4: than I did for her, and not in a bad

1383
01:05:15,280 --> 01:05:17,760
Speaker 4: or negative way, like good riddance whatever, you know.

1384
01:05:18,120 --> 01:05:20,240
Speaker 1: I mean, it's good.

1385
01:05:20,560 --> 01:05:22,440
Speaker 4: You know. I think it was her time to go

1386
01:05:23,080 --> 01:05:26,840
Speaker 4: and it needed to happen. I hope she got everything

1387
01:05:26,880 --> 01:05:27,480
Speaker 4: she deserves.

1388
01:05:28,800 --> 01:05:29,840
Speaker 1: We had no ill will.

1389
01:05:29,880 --> 01:05:32,360
Speaker 4: It's just, you know, I was it was kind of

1390
01:05:32,360 --> 01:05:35,680
Speaker 4: a relief, you know, knowing that she's not around anymore.

1391
01:05:35,760 --> 01:05:38,840
Speaker 4: Like I'm pretty sure i'd probably be sued by now.

1392
01:05:39,000 --> 01:05:39,919
Speaker 4: I would think it's.

1393
01:05:39,880 --> 01:05:43,880
Speaker 2: Right she was, But lots of people spared a lot

1394
01:05:43,920 --> 01:05:45,320
Speaker 2: of heartache, I'm sure.

1395
01:05:45,760 --> 01:05:48,200
Speaker 4: Yeah. It was just it was very It was a

1396
01:05:48,280 --> 01:05:50,840
Speaker 4: little bit decentering because we I had just already I

1397
01:05:50,840 --> 01:05:54,920
Speaker 4: had already done my first interview with uh the docus

1398
01:05:54,960 --> 01:05:58,560
Speaker 4: for the docuseries, and then all of us that you know,

1399
01:05:58,720 --> 01:06:01,439
Speaker 4: participated in it or knew about it, were like, oh

1400
01:06:01,440 --> 01:06:03,560
Speaker 4: my gosh, what are they going to do now? And

1401
01:06:04,400 --> 01:06:07,080
Speaker 4: I remember all being very relieved that they still decided

1402
01:06:07,080 --> 01:06:08,800
Speaker 4: to go forward with it. Just took them a little

1403
01:06:08,800 --> 01:06:11,400
Speaker 4: bit longer because all the work they've been doing now

1404
01:06:11,480 --> 01:06:14,320
Speaker 4: they had to kind of like redirect.

1405
01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:15,959
Speaker 1: Because Gwen died in a plane crash in the summer.

1406
01:06:16,000 --> 01:06:20,160
Speaker 1: Pople don't think that she did. I'm like, Ah, she did.

1407
01:06:20,200 --> 01:06:22,120
Speaker 1: I think she did. Yeah.

1408
01:06:22,200 --> 01:06:24,360
Speaker 4: I don't know if you really can come back from

1409
01:06:24,360 --> 01:06:27,160
Speaker 4: that or fake something like that. I mean it, I'd

1410
01:06:27,160 --> 01:06:27,680
Speaker 4: be horrible.

1411
01:06:28,120 --> 01:06:32,080
Speaker 3: I just want to know, because when you leave a

1412
01:06:32,120 --> 01:06:35,640
Speaker 3: community in a belief system and you're in a family

1413
01:06:36,320 --> 01:06:39,320
Speaker 3: and you're out in the world and you still part

1414
01:06:39,360 --> 01:06:42,720
Speaker 3: of you still very much believes that that church was

1415
01:06:42,800 --> 01:06:44,560
Speaker 3: right or that you're going to hell or whatever, Like,

1416
01:06:45,040 --> 01:06:47,960
Speaker 3: how long did it take you or is it taking

1417
01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:52,840
Speaker 3: you to deconstruct some of those beliefs and what has

1418
01:06:52,880 --> 01:06:53,760
Speaker 3: that process been like?

1419
01:06:54,760 --> 01:06:57,880
Speaker 1: It took a good ten years, it really truly did.

1420
01:06:58,120 --> 01:07:01,600
Speaker 4: And for me, how I managed to unpack all of

1421
01:07:01,640 --> 01:07:04,800
Speaker 4: it was a lot of how he was treated in

1422
01:07:04,800 --> 01:07:06,520
Speaker 4: a remnant and all the tenets and remnant were no

1423
01:07:06,600 --> 01:07:09,600
Speaker 4: different than how it was raised. So you know, I've

1424
01:07:09,600 --> 01:07:12,560
Speaker 4: said before that you know I was conditioned to be

1425
01:07:12,600 --> 01:07:15,640
Speaker 4: the perfect cult member. So anyways, I didn't have a

1426
01:07:15,640 --> 01:07:17,680
Speaker 4: lot of counseling for a really long time, but you know,

1427
01:07:17,800 --> 01:07:19,560
Speaker 4: learn it through learning things, like I would try to

1428
01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:21,960
Speaker 4: learn things and even through my husband, like he would

1429
01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:23,400
Speaker 4: give me a perspective.

1430
01:07:24,560 --> 01:07:25,240
Speaker 1: He's normal, he.

1431
01:07:25,160 --> 01:07:27,880
Speaker 4: Grew up normal, he didn't grow up with help, and

1432
01:07:28,640 --> 01:07:31,760
Speaker 4: his parents are still married and they're so normal. And

1433
01:07:31,800 --> 01:07:34,280
Speaker 4: in fact, I think that's when it really seeing how

1434
01:07:34,320 --> 01:07:37,360
Speaker 4: they functioned as a family, I was like, oh my gosh,

1435
01:07:37,720 --> 01:07:40,360
Speaker 4: this is what it's supposed to be like like I

1436
01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:42,040
Speaker 4: had no idea. I thought the way I grew up

1437
01:07:42,080 --> 01:07:45,520
Speaker 4: was normal, like everybody grew up that way, being around

1438
01:07:46,200 --> 01:07:48,680
Speaker 4: you know, quote unquote normalcy, and and you know, having

1439
01:07:48,680 --> 01:07:51,560
Speaker 4: a partner who would help me as best he could

1440
01:07:51,560 --> 01:07:53,720
Speaker 4: when he could, you know, is for what he understood.

1441
01:07:54,920 --> 01:07:57,440
Speaker 4: It was like my mid thirties when I finally started

1442
01:07:57,440 --> 01:07:59,160
Speaker 4: facing that I may be in a cult. Like I

1443
01:07:59,200 --> 01:08:02,760
Speaker 4: would look it up every now and then and it

1444
01:08:02,800 --> 01:08:05,680
Speaker 4: would scare me because I'm like you know, I don't

1445
01:08:05,680 --> 01:08:07,400
Speaker 4: know why it would scare me, but it's just like

1446
01:08:07,480 --> 01:08:09,680
Speaker 4: it's I would joke about it like, huh, I was

1447
01:08:09,680 --> 01:08:11,160
Speaker 4: in a cult. You know. Some people say that sound

1448
01:08:11,200 --> 01:08:12,720
Speaker 4: like a cult, and I'm like, yeah, whatever, you know,

1449
01:08:14,640 --> 01:08:17,000
Speaker 4: but truly facing what I had been a part of,

1450
01:08:17,120 --> 01:08:18,439
Speaker 4: you know, naming it what it is.

1451
01:08:18,479 --> 01:08:20,200
Speaker 1: It's it's a high control group. It's a cult.

1452
01:08:21,040 --> 01:08:24,920
Speaker 4: There's no other way to look at it. It took

1453
01:08:24,920 --> 01:08:26,880
Speaker 4: me a long time, but it was that generation called

1454
01:08:26,960 --> 01:08:30,080
Speaker 4: podcast I had stumbled upon finally just going I just

1455
01:08:30,120 --> 01:08:34,000
Speaker 4: really need to I need to say sick, what's what's

1456
01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:38,040
Speaker 4: it going to hurt? And learning through other survivors stories

1457
01:08:38,120 --> 01:08:41,760
Speaker 4: like I really related to a lot of the Scientology survivors.

1458
01:08:42,520 --> 01:08:44,479
Speaker 4: It's like Remnant's a lot of Church of God and

1459
01:08:44,560 --> 01:08:47,840
Speaker 4: Christian fundamentalism and a little bit of Scientology almost like

1460
01:08:47,960 --> 01:08:50,360
Speaker 4: just the way Remnant would track their members and you know,

1461
01:08:50,479 --> 01:08:53,519
Speaker 4: manipulate and everything, and how they would isolate families that

1462
01:08:53,680 --> 01:08:56,639
Speaker 4: just felt very There's something about their stories that felt

1463
01:08:56,640 --> 01:08:57,519
Speaker 4: really similar.

1464
01:08:57,600 --> 01:08:58,920
Speaker 1: And you know, the more.

1465
01:08:58,760 --> 01:09:00,360
Speaker 4: I listened to some more, I was like, oh gosh,

1466
01:09:00,360 --> 01:09:02,639
Speaker 4: Like so I wasn't a cult. This really did happen

1467
01:09:02,640 --> 01:09:02,800
Speaker 4: to me.

1468
01:09:02,920 --> 01:09:06,360
Speaker 2: Right, cults like just kind of repeat their It's like

1469
01:09:06,400 --> 01:09:08,840
Speaker 2: the sauce just kind of repeats itself over and over.

1470
01:09:08,960 --> 01:09:13,800
Speaker 2: So listening to any survivors, yeah right, exactly.

1471
01:09:13,800 --> 01:09:16,439
Speaker 4: The same makeup, but just there's always a slight difference

1472
01:09:16,439 --> 01:09:17,360
Speaker 4: throughout everyone.

1473
01:09:17,560 --> 01:09:20,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, but they're using the same tactic. It's usually the hair.

1474
01:09:22,120 --> 01:09:24,960
Speaker 1: She went all out on that one. It really did.

1475
01:09:25,160 --> 01:09:29,320
Speaker 3: Yeah No, but I like maybe truly, I think what

1476
01:09:29,360 --> 01:09:32,280
Speaker 3: you're saying is important though, because you know, this is

1477
01:09:32,280 --> 01:09:35,240
Speaker 3: something we hear about a lot and talk about a lot,

1478
01:09:35,280 --> 01:09:38,720
Speaker 3: which is that like generally people struggle to see if

1479
01:09:38,720 --> 01:09:40,759
Speaker 3: there a group is a cult or was a cult,

1480
01:09:41,320 --> 01:09:44,519
Speaker 3: just from people directly attacking the cult, but hearing other

1481
01:09:44,720 --> 01:09:48,720
Speaker 3: stories and seeing the parallels and drawing those connections themselves

1482
01:09:49,080 --> 01:09:51,599
Speaker 3: and hearing themselves in other people's stories, that can really

1483
01:09:51,640 --> 01:09:54,679
Speaker 3: be the big thing that opens people's eyes.

1484
01:09:54,680 --> 01:09:56,600
Speaker 1: And I'm really glad you have access to some of

1485
01:09:56,600 --> 01:09:58,559
Speaker 1: those stories. I know me too.

1486
01:09:58,720 --> 01:10:02,240
Speaker 4: It's like almost like a gent her way to kind

1487
01:10:02,240 --> 01:10:05,160
Speaker 4: of awaken like that realization, I guess you could say,

1488
01:10:05,160 --> 01:10:08,120
Speaker 4: because like other ways they're almost like too harsh, Like

1489
01:10:08,640 --> 01:10:10,760
Speaker 4: sometimes I feel like it should be subtle, especially like

1490
01:10:10,840 --> 01:10:13,759
Speaker 4: with with someone coming out of, you know, a group

1491
01:10:13,840 --> 01:10:16,680
Speaker 4: like Remnant. It's what I've noticed with a lot of

1492
01:10:16,680 --> 01:10:18,800
Speaker 4: survivors is it's not very prevalent that that's the first

1493
01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:19,679
Speaker 4: thing they want to say.

1494
01:10:20,000 --> 01:10:20,599
Speaker 1: And I get that.

1495
01:10:20,720 --> 01:10:22,840
Speaker 2: It took me a long time to say you can't

1496
01:10:22,840 --> 01:10:24,280
Speaker 2: wake a sleepwalker a little bit.

1497
01:10:24,439 --> 01:10:27,880
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, right, yeah yeah right.

1498
01:10:28,479 --> 01:10:30,679
Speaker 4: So what finally did it for me when I finally

1499
01:10:30,760 --> 01:10:32,920
Speaker 4: decided that I needed to really get into counseling and

1500
01:10:32,920 --> 01:10:35,040
Speaker 4: take it very seriously. Was I just wrote a simple

1501
01:10:35,080 --> 01:10:39,160
Speaker 4: paragraph on a Reddit post. Oh, someone had posted a

1502
01:10:39,200 --> 01:10:44,080
Speaker 4: picture of mister Bean the cowboy in the first yeah,

1503
01:10:44,080 --> 01:10:44,639
Speaker 4: the first half.

1504
01:10:44,840 --> 01:10:45,920
Speaker 1: I cannot remember his name.

1505
01:10:46,280 --> 01:10:50,080
Speaker 4: He has a trailer that talks about Remnant, how Remnant

1506
01:10:50,120 --> 01:10:52,400
Speaker 4: took his wife or whatever and who I shouldn't take

1507
01:10:52,439 --> 01:10:54,600
Speaker 4: all this stuff or something really hilarious, and I was like,

1508
01:10:54,600 --> 01:10:56,720
Speaker 4: oh my god, like that's crazy that they have that

1509
01:10:56,760 --> 01:10:58,120
Speaker 4: close to the church and everything.

1510
01:10:58,160 --> 01:11:01,320
Speaker 1: And someone asked me, well, what is your experience with

1511
01:11:01,400 --> 01:11:03,720
Speaker 1: this church? You know what? You know, why would you

1512
01:11:03,720 --> 01:11:04,960
Speaker 1: call to call like what happened to you?

1513
01:11:05,000 --> 01:11:07,640
Speaker 4: So I just gave like a very brief synopsis, you know,

1514
01:11:07,840 --> 01:11:11,000
Speaker 4: and all of a sudden, like I have two journalists

1515
01:11:11,040 --> 01:11:14,200
Speaker 4: contacting me. Raphael Martinez contacted me and then through that

1516
01:11:14,400 --> 01:11:17,040
Speaker 4: they became the story I wrote on Spirit Watch, and

1517
01:11:17,640 --> 01:11:20,439
Speaker 4: you know, multiple conversations with Rajeev Gala is one of

1518
01:11:20,439 --> 01:11:24,679
Speaker 4: the journalists I talked to, and Nile through Nile Capello.

1519
01:11:25,000 --> 01:11:28,479
Speaker 4: In Raphael's how I ended up on the docuseries is

1520
01:11:28,520 --> 01:11:30,920
Speaker 4: you can see the first half I was. I was terrified.

1521
01:11:30,920 --> 01:11:31,880
Speaker 1: He was still sitting in that chair.

1522
01:11:31,920 --> 01:11:36,000
Speaker 4: I was terrified because it's again, I'm putting out to

1523
01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:38,320
Speaker 4: the world now, like I'm telling my truth to the world,

1524
01:11:38,840 --> 01:11:39,960
Speaker 4: and what are people going to say?

1525
01:11:40,040 --> 01:11:41,080
Speaker 1: What are they going to think of me?

1526
01:11:41,880 --> 01:11:44,719
Speaker 4: Because people generally don't have a good view on people

1527
01:11:44,720 --> 01:11:47,519
Speaker 4: who've gone through what I've gone through, And you know,

1528
01:11:47,680 --> 01:11:50,439
Speaker 4: I think it's normal to maybe judge because you know,

1529
01:11:50,560 --> 01:11:52,800
Speaker 4: what worked for me isn't going to work for you.

1530
01:11:53,439 --> 01:11:55,519
Speaker 4: But it could happen to you in different areas too.

1531
01:11:55,560 --> 01:11:58,559
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people don't realize. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

1532
01:11:59,120 --> 01:12:01,160
Speaker 2: One of the things you said that really stuck out

1533
01:12:01,160 --> 01:12:03,080
Speaker 2: to me, and I might not be quoting you exactly,

1534
01:12:03,120 --> 01:12:06,439
Speaker 2: but you said, if you can't find a therapist who

1535
01:12:06,439 --> 01:12:10,639
Speaker 2: specializes in called find one who specializes in domestic abuse

1536
01:12:10,800 --> 01:12:14,320
Speaker 2: because they're very similar. And I was like, holy shit,

1537
01:12:14,479 --> 01:12:19,720
Speaker 2: that is so smart and specializes in trauma, and I'm

1538
01:12:19,720 --> 01:12:24,599
Speaker 2: going to add that to my repertoire of Yeah, it's

1539
01:12:25,560 --> 01:12:27,760
Speaker 2: really smart and you do a lot of outreach work.

1540
01:12:27,800 --> 01:12:29,120
Speaker 2: Can you tell us a little bit about where we.

1541
01:12:29,120 --> 01:12:29,600
Speaker 1: Can find that?

1542
01:12:29,720 --> 01:12:34,160
Speaker 4: And so I have a support group on Facebook, and

1543
01:12:34,200 --> 01:12:36,640
Speaker 4: you know there's not just remnant survivors in there, but

1544
01:12:36,720 --> 01:12:39,040
Speaker 4: you know people from all different you know groups, not

1545
01:12:39,080 --> 01:12:42,400
Speaker 4: like a ton of ton but that's a Christie.

1546
01:12:42,120 --> 01:12:42,880
Speaker 1: And c Forard.

1547
01:12:44,160 --> 01:12:49,360
Speaker 4: They are from they left remnant. They were married to

1548
01:12:49,400 --> 01:12:52,320
Speaker 4: two different people in the church and divorced and then

1549
01:12:52,320 --> 01:12:54,439
Speaker 4: they found each other and got married. They are doing

1550
01:12:55,120 --> 01:12:58,280
Speaker 4: exceptional work. Like they actually are doing what I would

1551
01:12:58,320 --> 01:13:01,600
Speaker 4: love to do. I just I don't have it to

1552
01:13:01,720 --> 01:13:05,080
Speaker 4: do like their they're certified in life coaching and counseling

1553
01:13:05,760 --> 01:13:09,120
Speaker 4: and uh. Their organization is called the Way Out to Freedom. Yeah,

1554
01:13:09,200 --> 01:13:11,720
Speaker 4: they're doing amazing work. And she's been very helpful in

1555
01:13:11,800 --> 01:13:14,599
Speaker 4: my group because life gets in the way and when

1556
01:13:14,600 --> 01:13:16,920
Speaker 4: your husband coaches mostly or too, it gets a little tough.

1557
01:13:17,000 --> 01:13:18,679
Speaker 1: No, I'm always here.

1558
01:13:18,920 --> 01:13:22,120
Speaker 4: I'm always here for anybody to reach out through email

1559
01:13:22,200 --> 01:13:25,320
Speaker 4: and things like that. It's just it's slowed down a lot.

1560
01:13:25,320 --> 01:13:27,920
Speaker 4: But I'm here for anybody who needs to talk. And

1561
01:13:28,200 --> 01:13:30,040
Speaker 4: like I said, I can get you. I've got Stephen

1562
01:13:30,120 --> 01:13:31,479
Speaker 4: krispy Hord. I've got you.

1563
01:13:31,520 --> 01:13:31,600
Speaker 2: Know.

1564
01:13:31,960 --> 01:13:34,600
Speaker 1: I can find anything, you know, I can look for

1565
01:13:34,640 --> 01:13:37,280
Speaker 1: any resource. But yeah, and what is your do you do?

1566
01:13:37,360 --> 01:13:39,480
Speaker 1: You want to share your social media? Absolutely?

1567
01:13:39,920 --> 01:13:42,960
Speaker 4: Facebook, if you search beyond Zion, I can't remember the handle.

1568
01:13:42,960 --> 01:13:46,000
Speaker 4: I think the handle is at beyond Zion the website

1569
01:13:46,200 --> 01:13:51,439
Speaker 4: it's beyond zion dot org. And myself personally, what is

1570
01:13:51,479 --> 01:13:53,839
Speaker 4: my handle on Instagram? To be honest, I don't really post.

1571
01:13:53,720 --> 01:13:54,200
Speaker 1: Much on there.

1572
01:13:54,640 --> 01:13:59,040
Speaker 3: I wait, I think I have it may underscore Jen Elizabeth.

1573
01:13:59,360 --> 01:14:00,280
Speaker 1: Yep, that's it.

1574
01:14:00,320 --> 01:14:02,200
Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much for joining us and for

1575
01:14:02,280 --> 01:14:04,880
Speaker 3: sharing your story. It was amazing talking to you.

1576
01:14:05,280 --> 01:14:07,479
Speaker 1: Well, thank you. I appreciate you guys reaching out, so

1577
01:14:07,600 --> 01:14:07,920
Speaker 1: thank you.

1578
01:14:09,080 --> 01:14:12,400
Speaker 3: Thank you to Megan Elizabeth Cox for coming on and

1579
01:14:12,439 --> 01:14:16,680
Speaker 3: for being the second Megan Elizabeth we've ever had on

1580
01:14:16,720 --> 01:14:17,240
Speaker 3: this show.

1581
01:14:18,760 --> 01:14:20,240
Speaker 1: Megan Elizabeth number one.

1582
01:14:20,880 --> 01:14:24,200
Speaker 3: I would love to know if you would join the

1583
01:14:24,200 --> 01:14:25,160
Speaker 3: Way Down Workshop.

1584
01:14:25,720 --> 01:14:28,880
Speaker 2: I think you're going to be surprised when my answer. Absolutely,

1585
01:14:29,200 --> 01:14:35,839
Speaker 2: I'm shocked, are you No? Really, I'm surprised. Are you surprised,

1586
01:14:35,920 --> 01:14:38,960
Speaker 2: I'm not surprised, Yeah, because I don't. I mean, yeah,

1587
01:14:38,960 --> 01:14:43,960
Speaker 2: I like her when she's on the way down. Yeah,

1588
01:14:44,040 --> 01:14:48,640
Speaker 2: I love like a just a woman who's leaning into

1589
01:14:49,320 --> 01:14:50,240
Speaker 2: big hair.

1590
01:14:51,000 --> 01:14:53,559
Speaker 3: I mean, well, I assumed you were going to say,

1591
01:14:53,560 --> 01:14:57,000
Speaker 3: because it harkens back to your own past and your

1592
01:14:57,040 --> 01:14:58,879
Speaker 3: own oh history with eating.

1593
01:14:58,680 --> 01:15:01,639
Speaker 2: Disorder, your disorder would just be the cherry on top, right.

1594
01:15:01,680 --> 01:15:05,360
Speaker 2: I just like she's almost like a Dully Parton character

1595
01:15:05,600 --> 01:15:09,400
Speaker 2: but like telling you you're connected to Jesus.

1596
01:15:09,360 --> 01:15:14,920
Speaker 3: Like it's addictive. Yeah, I do see the appeal. You know,

1597
01:15:15,000 --> 01:15:18,120
Speaker 3: we grew up at least as Americans, you know, who

1598
01:15:18,120 --> 01:15:21,599
Speaker 3: weren't from La or whatever, grew up like with this

1599
01:15:22,280 --> 01:15:23,759
Speaker 3: corn fed woman.

1600
01:15:24,520 --> 01:15:26,320
Speaker 1: She's gonna take you in and take care.

1601
01:15:26,400 --> 01:15:28,840
Speaker 3: You know, this idea of this like total woman from

1602
01:15:29,000 --> 01:15:31,240
Speaker 3: church and she's a mom and she's strong, you know,

1603
01:15:31,800 --> 01:15:36,040
Speaker 3: and I feel like she Gwen Chamblain like maybe not

1604
01:15:36,160 --> 01:15:40,240
Speaker 3: typically the hair that high, but Gwen Chamblin like fits

1605
01:15:40,280 --> 01:15:44,519
Speaker 3: that sort of archetype from like I think of Friday

1606
01:15:44,600 --> 01:15:45,960
Speaker 3: night lights or something, you know what I mean.

1607
01:15:46,600 --> 01:15:49,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's she's very seductive to me and a like

1608
01:15:50,280 --> 01:15:53,519
Speaker 2: I'm safe now way even as she's like just driving you.

1609
01:15:53,479 --> 01:15:55,479
Speaker 1: Towards she's literally good. Yeah.

1610
01:15:55,600 --> 01:15:59,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting, it's weird, Yeah, but I get it.

1611
01:15:59,360 --> 01:16:02,759
Speaker 3: I think in general, when colts are led by women,

1612
01:16:02,960 --> 01:16:04,519
Speaker 3: I think I'm more drawn.

1613
01:16:04,840 --> 01:16:06,360
Speaker 1: Yep, depending on the content.

1614
01:16:06,439 --> 01:16:09,680
Speaker 2: Obviously, we did do an episode with Carolyn Costin on

1615
01:16:09,800 --> 01:16:13,040
Speaker 2: eating disorders that is fascinating, So if anybody wants to

1616
01:16:13,040 --> 01:16:15,760
Speaker 2: listen to that, please do. Thank you for listening. We

1617
01:16:15,840 --> 01:16:18,639
Speaker 2: can't wait to see you again next week, and as always,

1618
01:16:18,760 --> 01:16:22,080
Speaker 2: remember to follow your gut, watch out for red flags,

1619
01:16:22,200 --> 01:16:24,519
Speaker 2: and never ever trust me.

1620
01:16:24,840 --> 01:16:25,519
Speaker 1: Bye bye.

1621
01:16:27,400 --> 01:16:29,920
Speaker 3: This has been an exactly right production hosted by me

1622
01:16:30,160 --> 01:16:31,120
Speaker 3: Lola Blanc.

1623
01:16:31,000 --> 01:16:34,320
Speaker 2: And me Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is ge Holly.

1624
01:16:34,640 --> 01:16:37,679
Speaker 2: This episode was mixed by John Bradley. Our associate producer

1625
01:16:37,760 --> 01:16:41,080
Speaker 2: is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker is Patrick Kottner.

1626
01:16:41,400 --> 01:16:43,719
Speaker 3: Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1627
01:16:44,040 --> 01:16:48,080
Speaker 2: Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth, Georgia Hartstark

1628
01:16:48,120 --> 01:16:49,080
Speaker 2: and Danielle Kramer.

1629
01:16:49,320 --> 01:16:51,599
Speaker 3: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast

1630
01:16:51,760 --> 01:16:53,920
Speaker 3: or on TikTok at trust Me Colt Podcast.

1631
01:16:54,240 --> 01:16:55,679
Speaker 1: Got your Own Story about cults?

1632
01:16:55,760 --> 01:16:59,080
Speaker 2: Extreme belief our manipulation. Shoot us an email at trust

1633
01:16:59,080 --> 01:17:00,440
Speaker 2: me pod at gmail.

1634
01:17:00,720 --> 01:17:03,640
Speaker 3: Listen to trust Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts,

1635
01:17:03,760 --> 01:17:05,320
Speaker 3: or wherever you get your podcasts.

1636
01:17:12,880 --> 01:17:12,920
Speaker 1: M