1
00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,320
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha. I'm welcome to Stuff

2
00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:18,720
Speaker 1: I'll Never Told you, prodiction of by Heart Radio, and

3
00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:23,000
Speaker 1: today we are beyond excited to be joined by educator, coach,

4
00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:27,120
Speaker 1: scholar and author of the book Fair Game, Doctor Anna Bath,

5
00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:32,600
Speaker 1: or Bath as you introduced yourself before we started. Welcome

6
00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:35,520
Speaker 1: to the show. We're so happy to have you.

7
00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:38,600
Speaker 2: Thank you. I'm very excited to be here.

8
00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:41,280
Speaker 1: Yes, we already kind of had a We should have

9
00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:43,800
Speaker 1: been recording much earlier because we were just chatting before

10
00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:49,200
Speaker 1: we started. We have a lot to cover, so can

11
00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:52,960
Speaker 1: you give our audience a broader introduction. You've done a

12
00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:54,440
Speaker 1: lot of yourself.

13
00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:59,080
Speaker 2: Sure. Yeah. So I'm doctor Anna Bathe I use shere

14
00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:05,520
Speaker 2: her pronouns. I am a scholar, I'm a researcher. I

15
00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:11,720
Speaker 2: was a two sport college athlete and after graduating from college,

16
00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:17,600
Speaker 2: went on to be a collegiate coach and eventually to

17
00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:21,200
Speaker 2: get a PhD. And while I was doing my PhD,

18
00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:28,119
Speaker 2: I was studying women in leadership positions in sport. And

19
00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:31,360
Speaker 2: as I was finishing my graduate degree and I was

20
00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:35,080
Speaker 2: looking for a job, I was offered a position with

21
00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:39,160
Speaker 2: an LGBTQ rights organization. So this was about I guess

22
00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:43,120
Speaker 2: this was six years ago. So I started working in

23
00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:45,959
Speaker 2: this space, and I really didn't know a whole lot

24
00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:53,240
Speaker 2: about the topic of trans athletes in particular. But all

25
00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:56,760
Speaker 2: of a sudden, I was in a position where I

26
00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,280
Speaker 2: was in charge of research for this organization and I

27
00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:03,840
Speaker 2: was getting a lot of questions, a lot of questions

28
00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:09,000
Speaker 2: about trans athletes, and at first I didn't really have

29
00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:14,240
Speaker 2: an answer, and so I spent five years doing a

30
00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:19,240
Speaker 2: lot of my own research. I was being told a

31
00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:22,280
Speaker 2: lot of different narratives, I was being pulled in a

32
00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:26,799
Speaker 2: lot of different directions, and I thought, no, I need

33
00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:28,560
Speaker 2: to figure out what I think about this. I need

34
00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:31,680
Speaker 2: to do my own research and figure out what I

35
00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:35,120
Speaker 2: think and what I believe to be true. And so

36
00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:37,880
Speaker 2: that has culminated in this book.

37
00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:43,720
Speaker 1: Yes, and Samantha and I have both read it, and

38
00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:46,840
Speaker 1: it is wonderful and is so needed, and it's so succinct,

39
00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:50,400
Speaker 1: and it just really articulated a lot of things me

40
00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:54,640
Speaker 1: personally that I've been needing to be articulated in a

41
00:02:54,680 --> 00:03:00,239
Speaker 1: clear way that I've felt it. So it's just such

42
00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:06,839
Speaker 1: a timely, timely read and very very important. So can

43
00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:11,880
Speaker 1: you tell us about the book and the process of

44
00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:14,480
Speaker 1: writing it, and what it was like to have it

45
00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:17,000
Speaker 1: come out right now, I.

46
00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:20,960
Speaker 2: Would love to Well, it's important to say this was

47
00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:25,840
Speaker 2: not done alone. I have my co author Ellie Rocher.

48
00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:29,720
Speaker 2: Chris Moser, who wrote the FOURD to the book, has

49
00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:35,360
Speaker 2: been an amazing advocate for trans athlete rights for it

50
00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:40,240
Speaker 2: seems like forever. Really, I met Ellie many years ago

51
00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:43,760
Speaker 2: and she was aware of my work and we had

52
00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:47,680
Speaker 2: been talking about it. And as I was thinking about

53
00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:49,920
Speaker 2: trans athletes and getting all of these questions about what

54
00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:54,240
Speaker 2: was going on, I started to really try to put

55
00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:57,200
Speaker 2: more information out there and say, hey, you know, here's

56
00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:59,560
Speaker 2: what we're talking about in terms of numbers, here's what

57
00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:04,040
Speaker 2: we know. Oh, here's what we don't know. And I

58
00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:11,080
Speaker 2: found that it just wasn't landing. People weren't people were

59
00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:15,240
Speaker 2: I mean broadly just disregarding the data and the science.

60
00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:19,240
Speaker 2: And Ellie and I talked a lot about it and agreed,

61
00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:21,920
Speaker 2: you know, part of the problem here is we're doing

62
00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:25,039
Speaker 2: a lot of talking about trans athletes without talking to

63
00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:29,320
Speaker 2: trans athletes. And so the impetus for the book was

64
00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:34,800
Speaker 2: really to say, hey, we want to introduce twenty transathletes

65
00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:37,680
Speaker 2: to the world. You know, most often when people talk

66
00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:40,839
Speaker 2: to me about this topic. You know, whenever I say

67
00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:43,520
Speaker 2: I work in sport, women's sport, if I say I

68
00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,720
Speaker 2: work in gender and sport, the question invariably is, what

69
00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:49,839
Speaker 2: do you think about trans women in sport? My first

70
00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:55,039
Speaker 2: response is, well, have you ever met a transathlete? And

71
00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:58,280
Speaker 2: I realized that most people also had an opinion about transathletes,

72
00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:00,880
Speaker 2: but it never met a transathlete. And so when we

73
00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:02,720
Speaker 2: wrote the book, it was really like, hey, we want

74
00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:05,800
Speaker 2: to introduce these twenty trans athletes. And of course we

75
00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:08,719
Speaker 2: wrote it three years ago, and now we're in a

76
00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:14,400
Speaker 2: pretty different political moment around this topic. And it turns

77
00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:19,400
Speaker 2: out that the twenty athletes we interviewed now, of them,

78
00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:23,320
Speaker 2: only one legally can compete in the United States, and

79
00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:28,480
Speaker 2: so the conversation has really shifted. The book was stories data,

80
00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:36,080
Speaker 2: and now it's somewhat more political, more politicized. I would say,

81
00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:40,159
Speaker 2: I don't know if that answers the question, but that's

82
00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:40,760
Speaker 2: how we did it.

83
00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:45,240
Speaker 1: No, No, it does. It does answer the question, and

84
00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:50,520
Speaker 1: I think going to that point of being politicized, this

85
00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:58,000
Speaker 1: is such a political lightning rod issue and as you

86
00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:02,520
Speaker 1: point out in the book, trans athletes make up one

87
00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:09,400
Speaker 1: percent of sports participants, but it, according to conservative politicians,

88
00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,200
Speaker 1: they must make up so much more, like such a

89
00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:15,279
Speaker 1: bigger issue than that. There are hundreds of bills banning

90
00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:18,800
Speaker 1: trans athletes that have been introduced. As you said, now,

91
00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:22,159
Speaker 1: that's such a disheartening number. Only one can legally compete.

92
00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:28,560
Speaker 1: Of the people you interviewed, why do you think this

93
00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,800
Speaker 1: is such a hot button issue in our politics?

94
00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:36,760
Speaker 2: I wish I had a clear answer to that. You know,

95
00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,880
Speaker 2: I do find it really curious because for a long

96
00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:41,920
Speaker 2: time people would ask me about this, and I was like,

97
00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:45,080
Speaker 2: why are we even talking about this? I mean, like,

98
00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:50,440
Speaker 2: we are talking about a handful of athletes. So if

99
00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:52,640
Speaker 2: we're going to talk about sport in general, and we're

100
00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:54,560
Speaker 2: going to talk about gender and sport, we're going to

101
00:06:54,600 --> 00:07:00,520
Speaker 2: talk about women in sport, we have many or fish

102
00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:04,839
Speaker 2: to fry. Right. Why it's such a topic is because

103
00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:08,360
Speaker 2: people have made it into a topic, and particularly because

104
00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:12,680
Speaker 2: conservative politicians have made it into a topic. Right. I mean,

105
00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:15,960
Speaker 2: when we look at the media in twenty twenty one,

106
00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:21,000
Speaker 2: there were more conservative politicians quoted in the media talking

107
00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:25,400
Speaker 2: about trans athletes than there were trans athletes quoted talking

108
00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:30,800
Speaker 2: about sport or their experience. That is mind blowing to me. Right,

109
00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:35,800
Speaker 2: Why there's such a focus, You know, I can speculate

110
00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:38,880
Speaker 2: that it's to get elected, that it's to get votes.

111
00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:42,920
Speaker 2: There's money behind it. I mean Riley Gaines is an

112
00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,240
Speaker 2: classic example of that. She has made a lot of

113
00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:50,600
Speaker 2: money off of talking about this topic. But I think

114
00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:56,200
Speaker 2: ultimately this is a lot about distraction. It's a lot

115
00:07:56,280 --> 00:08:01,120
Speaker 2: about talking about sport without talking about the real issues

116
00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:11,920
Speaker 2: in sport. And I think it's about controlling bodies. Yeah,

117
00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:15,600
Speaker 2: I mean it's not lost on us, right that this

118
00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:20,400
Speaker 2: is happening on the heels of overturning Roe v. Wade. Right,

119
00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:24,720
Speaker 2: we're talking about who has control over whose bodies and

120
00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:26,040
Speaker 2: in what ways.

121
00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:26,960
Speaker 3: You do a great job.

122
00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:28,920
Speaker 4: I mean in the book that you are all right

123
00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:33,040
Speaker 4: about the fact that the usage of trans women versus

124
00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:36,160
Speaker 4: transmit which is a little different context, and how this

125
00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:39,840
Speaker 4: all links to violence and policing not only trans bodies,

126
00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:42,800
Speaker 4: but cis women's bodies as well. And that is the

127
00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:44,680
Speaker 4: biggest part, because you also go in to talk about

128
00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:47,760
Speaker 4: the people who gain the most here are the conservative

129
00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:52,040
Speaker 4: politicians who are talking about using this asset of platform,

130
00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:54,200
Speaker 4: and you kind of already mentioned, but can you talk

131
00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:56,480
Speaker 4: more about that? Because I think this is where we

132
00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:58,720
Speaker 4: talk about. This is the intersectionality of it all, Like

133
00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:01,440
Speaker 4: no one really wants to talk about the bigger picture

134
00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:05,240
Speaker 4: and think that when they say we're protecting young girls

135
00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:07,560
Speaker 4: or women in general, is not actually about that.

136
00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:12,600
Speaker 2: I think if we want to talk about protecting girls

137
00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,520
Speaker 2: and women in sport, then we need to talk about

138
00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:18,640
Speaker 2: what's actually impacting girls and women in sport. And of

139
00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:23,440
Speaker 2: course these issues are ones that impact a lot of people,

140
00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:27,240
Speaker 2: even though it's not in sport. I find it shocking

141
00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:33,080
Speaker 2: when people talk about trans athletes and the harms that

142
00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:38,960
Speaker 2: they don't talk about the rampant abuse that happens in sport.

143
00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:41,760
Speaker 2: I also find it curious when we talk about trans

144
00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:45,319
Speaker 2: athletes that there is such a focus on CIS women,

145
00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:50,280
Speaker 2: mostly because I think about you know, a lot of

146
00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:53,520
Speaker 2: what we talk about in the book is about imagining

147
00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:57,080
Speaker 2: a different future of sport, right, Like, let's think about

148
00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:03,239
Speaker 2: what sport could be. And when we think about that, obviously,

149
00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:06,040
Speaker 2: you know, we're not just talking about trans athletes they

150
00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:08,000
Speaker 2: make up a very small portion of the population.

151
00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:09,640
Speaker 3: But we're talking about.

152
00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:14,600
Speaker 2: Creating healthy sports systems and systems where people can participate

153
00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:20,040
Speaker 2: and be themselves but also be safe. I think about

154
00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:24,400
Speaker 2: that a lot when I think about men's sport too. Right,

155
00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:29,079
Speaker 2: there's only been one study so far on the impact

156
00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:33,840
Speaker 2: of these conversations around trans women on CIS boys, but

157
00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:37,640
Speaker 2: it really makes me wonder, what are we saying to

158
00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:43,640
Speaker 2: young boys when we say, whatever you are, do not

159
00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:47,040
Speaker 2: be a trans woman. What does it say when you're

160
00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:50,920
Speaker 2: saying to a boy, whatever you are, don't be a woman,

161
00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:55,360
Speaker 2: don't be feminine? That I think gets to the crux

162
00:10:55,360 --> 00:11:00,160
Speaker 2: of it. A lot of this is about a reasoner

163
00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:02,959
Speaker 2: of masculinity in very particular ways.

164
00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:07,760
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I literally when you talked about the linkage

165
00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:10,960
Speaker 4: about the damage on CIS boys. It started because we've

166
00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:13,400
Speaker 4: had a big conversation over here in the last few

167
00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,720
Speaker 4: months and talking about the loneliness epidemic of men and

168
00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:18,680
Speaker 4: male loneliness and how it's kind of gotten to this

169
00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:21,880
Speaker 4: greater force of like, it's not necessarily true that there's

170
00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:25,120
Speaker 4: more loneliness than men. It's just that the violence that

171
00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:28,600
Speaker 4: happens and the impact overall is that when men are lonely,

172
00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,720
Speaker 4: it impacts women because we are the ones who are

173
00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:34,920
Speaker 4: getting taken out on in general, and this level of

174
00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:39,440
Speaker 4: conversation that actually, when we talk about anti trans violence

175
00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:45,120
Speaker 4: and rhetoric, we we're pushing on that toxic mexiculinity onto

176
00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:48,480
Speaker 4: young CIS boys, and oh my god, that hits something

177
00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:50,920
Speaker 4: like y'all writing that is like this is this bigger

178
00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:55,240
Speaker 4: relate like language of the overall simple statement patriarchy hurts

179
00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:59,520
Speaker 4: everyone and overall like how this really does damage the

180
00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:02,480
Speaker 4: society as a whole, but it really is just as

181
00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:06,120
Speaker 4: bad for SITH boys as it is for any other

182
00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:09,840
Speaker 4: gender or any other part of any other marginalized community

183
00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:12,360
Speaker 4: in itself. Can you kind of expound on that, because

184
00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:15,360
Speaker 4: that was a deep statement that I feel like we're

185
00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:16,360
Speaker 4: not talking enough about.

186
00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:20,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's interesting when we look at states,

187
00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:24,760
Speaker 2: and this was primarily the case before the last two years,

188
00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:29,640
Speaker 2: but when we look at states within the US that

189
00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:34,600
Speaker 2: had policies in sport and in their education systems that

190
00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:40,160
Speaker 2: were inclusive of trans athletes and trans kids, those were

191
00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:48,079
Speaker 2: places where cisgender girls also were thriving. So basically, studies

192
00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:53,440
Speaker 2: show if you have protective policies for trans athletes, then

193
00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:57,880
Speaker 2: all athletes are going to thrive. Cis gender girls, in particular,

194
00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:03,120
Speaker 2: in those states would report being happier participating in sport,

195
00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:06,720
Speaker 2: They stayed in sport longer, they had a healthier relationship

196
00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:11,640
Speaker 2: with our bodies, and expressed more confidence. And so this

197
00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:15,360
Speaker 2: is about policy, but it's really about how do we

198
00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:22,200
Speaker 2: create cultures where people can learn thrive be in their

199
00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:26,520
Speaker 2: bodies in ways that are healthy. Right, And so I

200
00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:31,640
Speaker 2: wish we had more data on how boys perform in

201
00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:36,880
Speaker 2: those spaces too, But it makes complete sense if you

202
00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:43,360
Speaker 2: have policies, if you're educating coaches, sport organization leaders, even

203
00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:47,800
Speaker 2: athletes and parents to be inclusive, you're going to create

204
00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:52,440
Speaker 2: healthier spaces for all athletes, including SIS boys. And I

205
00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:56,160
Speaker 2: would say CIS boys in some ways are the people

206
00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:59,040
Speaker 2: who need it the most, especially right now.

207
00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:05,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was struck by you mentioned kind of the

208
00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:10,240
Speaker 1: toxicity of the locker room talk, and I was like, oh, yeah,

209
00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:27,080
Speaker 1: still so pervasive. Something else that you tackle in this book,

210
00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:30,640
Speaker 1: because you tackle a lot of mists around this whole,

211
00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:36,000
Speaker 1: all of this discussion around trans athletes, and one of

212
00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,840
Speaker 1: the ones that I have often thought doesn't make sense

213
00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:43,400
Speaker 1: but people present as fact is kind of the scientific

214
00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:45,800
Speaker 1: one because I've always personally thought like, well, people just

215
00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:51,520
Speaker 1: naturally are different, Like I don't understand this, but they're

216
00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:57,080
Speaker 1: always is always presented as sis, women are weaker, men

217
00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:01,480
Speaker 1: are superior, and this fact and here the science and

218
00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:03,960
Speaker 1: in the book you talk about that and you point

219
00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:06,720
Speaker 1: out that a lot of the data is either faulty

220
00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:12,840
Speaker 1: or just not there. Yes, so can you discuss please?

221
00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:17,680
Speaker 2: Yeah? Okay, So I'm a sais woman, right, clearly have

222
00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:21,640
Speaker 2: a vested interest in sport. So the idea when people

223
00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:24,600
Speaker 2: say to me, well, like, all men are bigger, faster,

224
00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:28,680
Speaker 2: stronger than all women, I mean, first of all, it

225
00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:31,600
Speaker 2: kind of irks me, like, let's just put that out there.

226
00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:35,880
Speaker 2: But also it's not true, right, There are plenty of

227
00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:41,040
Speaker 2: examples of sports where women perform as well, if not

228
00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:45,080
Speaker 2: better than men. We're learning more and more about those sports.

229
00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:47,840
Speaker 2: Ultra running is a great example, and we talk about

230
00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:50,640
Speaker 2: that in the book But what we really know about

231
00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:58,000
Speaker 2: athleticism and physiology is there isn't great data, especially when

232
00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:04,320
Speaker 2: we're talking solely about bodies, right, But beyond that, I mean, okay,

233
00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:08,480
Speaker 2: first of all, it's way more complicated than that, right, sport,

234
00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:10,680
Speaker 2: What are we talking about when we talk about sport?

235
00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:15,120
Speaker 2: There are so many different kinds of sports that value

236
00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:17,440
Speaker 2: so many different parts of what it means to be

237
00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:22,320
Speaker 2: an athlete. So to broadly state that all men are

238
00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:27,160
Speaker 2: better than all women in all sports is ludicrous. Still,

239
00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:30,880
Speaker 2: when we look at the science too, and when we

240
00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:37,760
Speaker 2: look at the data, what we really know is physiology. Okay,

241
00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:39,920
Speaker 2: there are some variables that can have an impact in

242
00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:44,400
Speaker 2: certain sports, but what really broadly makes a great athlete

243
00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:48,240
Speaker 2: science is the data is very clear. It's who has money,

244
00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:54,680
Speaker 2: who has access, and who has the resources and support

245
00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:58,920
Speaker 2: early on in their lives to become an elite athlete.

246
00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:02,120
Speaker 2: That's Theottom line. And so when we look at who's

247
00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:04,600
Speaker 2: winning in sport, if we look at you know, who

248
00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:09,760
Speaker 2: wins Olympic medals, it is athletes who have had access,

249
00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:12,680
Speaker 2: and some do have genetic variations that make them better

250
00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:17,399
Speaker 2: at sport, Michael Phelps's case in point. But overall, the

251
00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,280
Speaker 2: people who have always won in sport are still winning.

252
00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:24,160
Speaker 2: It's the people who have the resources to be able

253
00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:27,480
Speaker 2: to be good at sport and to put time and

254
00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:32,080
Speaker 2: energy into it. So when we talk about, you know,

255
00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:34,800
Speaker 2: the science, when we talk about the physiology, sure, I'm

256
00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,520
Speaker 2: happy to talk testosterone. I'm happy to talk about you

257
00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:41,680
Speaker 2: know what impacts athletic ability, But if we really want

258
00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:43,640
Speaker 2: to talk about it, then let's talk about who has

259
00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:44,800
Speaker 2: the money to do it?

260
00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:50,440
Speaker 1: Yes, because it's it's there are so many systemic things.

261
00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:53,200
Speaker 1: And as you point out, because this argument is usually used,

262
00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:57,760
Speaker 1: it's why trans women should not compete, because then that

263
00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:03,600
Speaker 1: is unfair to cist women, whereas the other argument about

264
00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:09,400
Speaker 1: trans men, it's almost never made. But as you illustrate

265
00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:14,359
Speaker 1: throughout the book through these interviews, to be a trans athlete,

266
00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:18,160
Speaker 1: especially younger, you have all of these obstacles to go through.

267
00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:22,360
Speaker 1: You have all of these systemic things that are preventing you.

268
00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:28,359
Speaker 1: So of course it makes sense that you know, we

269
00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:33,840
Speaker 1: unfortunately don't see a lot of them in more spotlight.

270
00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:36,960
Speaker 1: But I don't know, that's just another thing that I

271
00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:39,440
Speaker 1: it makes sense to me that it would be more

272
00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,719
Speaker 1: about resources than it would be about I don't know,

273
00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,080
Speaker 1: testosterone or whatever it is.

274
00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:50,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think it really raises the question of

275
00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:53,960
Speaker 2: Like the question that I think it raises is is

276
00:18:54,000 --> 00:19:00,879
Speaker 2: our sports system working? And you know, people don't necessarily

277
00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:03,919
Speaker 2: want to think about that, But the bottom line is

278
00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:08,400
Speaker 2: in this country, you know, the United States is one

279
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:10,800
Speaker 2: of the few countries in the world that doesn't have

280
00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:15,320
Speaker 2: federal oversight of sport. We don't have a federal governing

281
00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:19,480
Speaker 2: body for sport like most countries, especially those in the

282
00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:23,960
Speaker 2: global North, and within our education system, what we've seen

283
00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:28,760
Speaker 2: broadly is physical education is being redacted across the country.

284
00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:33,440
Speaker 2: So the only way kids get access to their bodies

285
00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:38,879
Speaker 2: typically is through sport. And because sport isn't regulated, it's

286
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,080
Speaker 2: sort of like the wild wild West. I mean, it's

287
00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:45,360
Speaker 2: really we are operating in a pay to play system.

288
00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:49,320
Speaker 2: So the only kids who get access to their bodies,

289
00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:53,240
Speaker 2: which I think access to your body, to be empowered

290
00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,080
Speaker 2: in your body as a human right, are the ones

291
00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:58,479
Speaker 2: who can afford it or who have families who can

292
00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:02,840
Speaker 2: afford it. That is a really big and sticky point,

293
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,600
Speaker 2: and it raises some really big questions. But I think

294
00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:11,359
Speaker 2: a lot of the conversations we're having about trans athletes again,

295
00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:15,320
Speaker 2: you know, the irony is just so so deep that

296
00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:18,160
Speaker 2: we want to talk about trans athletes, but we don't

297
00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:23,399
Speaker 2: want to talk about pay to play. So that's, you know,

298
00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:25,760
Speaker 2: for me again, when we get when I mentioned the

299
00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:29,320
Speaker 2: distraction technique earlier, it makes me wonder, is this a

300
00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:33,800
Speaker 2: distraction from the realities of people not knowing how to

301
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:37,159
Speaker 2: or wanting to address all the issues that we have

302
00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:39,520
Speaker 2: in sport broadly, right, You do.

303
00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:43,200
Speaker 4: A really good point into like in the conversation specifically,

304
00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:45,040
Speaker 4: I think it was Sue. I'm trying to remember the

305
00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:48,200
Speaker 4: story that I'm getting all confused where she talks about

306
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:51,840
Speaker 4: who ended up beating men when she was able to

307
00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:55,760
Speaker 4: race against it as a like ginger neutral type of

308
00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:57,040
Speaker 4: I think it was ultra running.

309
00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:58,840
Speaker 3: I'm trying to remember all those stories.

310
00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:02,359
Speaker 4: And after that the league kind of had a problem,

311
00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:04,240
Speaker 4: was like, you know what, maybe we should we should

312
00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:06,480
Speaker 4: ginger these we should ginger these types of.

313
00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:08,919
Speaker 3: Sports so we have you know, fair play and all this.

314
00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:11,680
Speaker 4: And then the quote said the timing of the sex

315
00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:16,080
Speaker 4: segregation seems driven by a desire to protect men and

316
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,600
Speaker 4: not women, And I was like, yes, because we've talked

317
00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,359
Speaker 4: about the beginning of Olympics and as well as the

318
00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:23,679
Speaker 4: Boston Marathon, and I know y'all brought that in its

319
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:27,800
Speaker 4: examples of like not allowing women to participate in saying

320
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:31,040
Speaker 4: this to protect them and they're too gentile and they

321
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,040
Speaker 4: can't do this sports because they're not built for it.

322
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:36,520
Speaker 4: But in actuality it feels more like, oh, but we

323
00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:38,359
Speaker 4: want to make sure that men have dignity enough to

324
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,040
Speaker 4: beat them and so they don't want this.

325
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:41,919
Speaker 3: Type of competition.

326
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,639
Speaker 4: And I thought like that was a big statement in

327
00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:50,000
Speaker 4: itself as well, like kind of protecting men's pride over

328
00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:51,320
Speaker 4: actual sportsmanship.

329
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,080
Speaker 3: And I just really like the hit.

330
00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think it's I think it's complicated, right,

331
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,800
Speaker 2: because as in some ways this book has brought me

332
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:08,080
Speaker 2: more empathy for men than I ever expected, because I

333
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,760
Speaker 2: do feel empathetic. I mean, I look at my nephews.

334
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:19,520
Speaker 2: They're young, they're six eight, and I look at them

335
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:27,239
Speaker 2: competing against girls just playing, and the fear that I

336
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:31,480
Speaker 2: see if they are beaten by a girl in sport

337
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:35,040
Speaker 2: in any way, it breaks my heart. And then of

338
00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:38,960
Speaker 2: course girls end up playing smaller or end up leaving sport.

339
00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:49,960
Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean protecting men again. This really it's like,

340
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:52,679
Speaker 2: can't we think of something better? Can't we think of

341
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:56,320
Speaker 2: some other way to teach boys about how they can

342
00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:01,239
Speaker 2: be the best versions of themselves with out having it

343
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:05,480
Speaker 2: be a comparison to a girl or a woman or

344
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:10,399
Speaker 2: to other boys. I mean that's a radical thought, and

345
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,199
Speaker 2: for me, it's an exciting one and I think a

346
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:14,840
Speaker 2: lot of what we talk about in the book too,

347
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,360
Speaker 2: and a lot of our stance on this is Don't

348
00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,159
Speaker 2: get me wrong, I'm critical a sport, but I love sport.

349
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,160
Speaker 2: Sport has changed my life. I love it, I love

350
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 2: being a coach, I love being an athlete, and I

351
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:31,399
Speaker 2: want everybody to have access to a sporting system and

352
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:36,200
Speaker 2: to their bodies that that's healthy and not based in comparison,

353
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,879
Speaker 2: but the amount of money and energy and time that

354
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,320
Speaker 2: we put into sport in this country, and even into

355
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 2: this conversation about trans athletes, what if we put that

356
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 2: into creating a better system of sport where boys weren't

357
00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:55,679
Speaker 2: afraid to lose to little girls? What would that do

358
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:59,440
Speaker 2: for our country? What would that do for our worlds well?

359
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,919
Speaker 1: And one thing that really struck me reading this is

360
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 1: that a lot of the people you interviewed were very, very,

361
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:14,359
Speaker 1: very competitive, but plenty of them I don't say weren't,

362
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 1: but they just more wanted the experience of knowing what

363
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,200
Speaker 1: my body can do, how far can I push myself?

364
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:24,959
Speaker 1: And it was never about like going to the Olympics,

365
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,159
Speaker 1: or never about like anything like that. It was just

366
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 1: I enjoy the sport. I enjoy feeling empowered in my

367
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 1: body and knowing what it can do. And I just

368
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 1: love that because I think so many times we get

369
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,360
Speaker 1: lost in sort of this conversation of just professional athletes.

370
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,199
Speaker 1: It's all about winning, but for some people you interviewed,

371
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,639
Speaker 1: it was much more about like, I get to be

372
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:48,840
Speaker 1: a part of a team now and I get to

373
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 1: see what my body can do now, and how powerful

374
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:56,919
Speaker 1: that was. So can you talk about why that is

375
00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,679
Speaker 1: so important in the role of sports for trans gender folks?

376
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,120
Speaker 1: Why can that be so powerful and important?

377
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,399
Speaker 2: People participate in sport for a lot of different reasons, right,

378
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,359
Speaker 2: And I think broadly the point that we are making

379
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 2: is simply trans athletes participate in sport for all the

380
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,920
Speaker 2: same reasons that SIS athletes do, and most often it's

381
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,920
Speaker 2: not because they're aiming to win an Olympic gold medal.

382
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 2: I mean, maybe they are, and that's great too, but

383
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 2: I think the impetus here and I think it's really

384
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 2: important to say too so when we talk to kids,

385
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 2: all of the studies for a very long time who

386
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,960
Speaker 2: have where they've interviewed or surveyed children about why they

387
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,959
Speaker 2: participate in sport, why they choose the sports that they

388
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:53,439
Speaker 2: participate in why they stay in sport. The answer almost

389
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 2: always is because my friends are. Of course, that makes

390
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 2: complete sense to me. Right. So to then say, okay, well, actually,

391
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,160
Speaker 2: all we're going to talk about is elite competition gets

392
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 2: away from the fact that, to your point, most people

393
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 2: participate in sport because it's fun, because they have fun

394
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:18,919
Speaker 2: doing it, because it's enjoyable, because they get to be

395
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 2: with their friends, right. And that's true for most adults too.

396
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,639
Speaker 2: And I think when we look at trans athletes in particular,

397
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 2: I mean most of them, I would.

398
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:35,120
Speaker 5: Say, why would you put yourself in that situation if

399
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 5: you don't love it, if you're not enjoying it, if

400
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 5: you're not having fun in that space, particularly now, right.

401
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 2: So yeah, and then of course you know there are

402
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:48,680
Speaker 2: all of these benefits to sport. Then we talk a

403
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 2: little bit about that in the book too. But the

404
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 2: bottom line is sport can be really good for people,

405
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 2: and it can be really bad for people, and we

406
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,399
Speaker 2: have to name that, and we have to say and

407
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:07,880
Speaker 2: I think the broader point of the book is to say,

408
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 2: let's make sport healthier, more fun, make it easier for

409
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:19,919
Speaker 2: kids to hang out with their friends in the.

410
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 3: Sport let's give them time to play, right.

411
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's not complicated. It's not complicated, right.

412
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,639
Speaker 4: One of the things I loved about your storytelling about

413
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:43,159
Speaker 4: having the transit community to come out and tell their

414
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 4: stories are both the mixture of like the good experiences

415
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 4: and the bad experiences. But not only would the good experiences.

416
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 4: It was not just about the individuality, but you even

417
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 4: talk about the coach's reactions. The team makes reactions the

418
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 4: good and the bad. And I love that because oftentimes

419
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,400
Speaker 4: in these stories we hear the pity porn of it all,

420
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 4: and I like that there's so much like we want

421
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 4: to see the trauma. But you make sure to balance

422
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 4: both of those narratives so that we can have a

423
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:08,639
Speaker 4: point of view of what it looks like to have

424
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:14,159
Speaker 4: great team advocacy and people who are supported, versus what

425
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 4: it looks like when they don't.

426
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:16,920
Speaker 3: But you have that balance.

427
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 4: Why do you think, especially in this type of conversation,

428
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,439
Speaker 4: it's important to have individuals telling those types of stories

429
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 4: and having those balances in this type of advocacy work

430
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 4: because essentially this is advocacy work because we know at

431
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 4: this point we're having to fight for a right for

432
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 4: an individual who just won't want to be healthy and

433
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 4: have fun.

434
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 2: Well, I think first of all the benefits of sport physiologically,

435
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 2: you know, we know a lot about that. Of course,

436
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 2: it can help with confidence, with empowerment, there's all of that.

437
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 2: But I think you know earlier you mentioned a lot

438
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 2: of conversations recently about social isolation, and I think it's

439
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 2: important to underscore that sport can be often is a

440
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 2: great space of community building, even if it's an individual sport. Right,

441
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 2: You don't do sport alone ever, and so for us too,

442
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 2: a lot of this is talking about how we counter

443
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 2: social isolation and how sport can be that, which again

444
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 2: raises a question for me of why in the world

445
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 2: would we take away somebody's access to community because we

446
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 2: want them to feel isolated, right? And why would they

447
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 2: Why would folks want us to feel isolated? A lot

448
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 2: of what we talk about too in the book and

449
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 2: well a little bit is people who don't have access

450
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 2: to their bodies or communities are much easier to control, right,

451
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 2: And so sport can be a counter to that. We

452
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 2: hope it is a counter to that. We want people

453
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 2: to be in their bodies, we want them to be

454
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 2: feeling what's happening in the world around us, because if

455
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 2: we're feeling it, then we're paying attention, right and most

456
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 2: often our bodies tell us pretty quickly what's going on

457
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 2: and what to trust and not to trust. So teaching

458
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 2: people that teaching kids that I think matters, but it's

459
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 2: also teaching people how to be in community together. You know,

460
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 2: I grew up playing sport, and I should say both

461
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 2: of my parents are from Montana, and so I think

462
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 2: that they always sort of imbuede in us a very

463
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 2: clear sensibility of how you should operate in the world,

464
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 2: which is you have to live in community. So when

465
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 2: I started sport as a kid, my parents always told me, Hey,

466
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 2: this is a space where you're going to meet people

467
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 2: who are not like you. This is going to be

468
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 2: a space where they're going to people be, people who

469
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,960
Speaker 2: think differently than you, who operate in the world differently

470
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 2: than you, And this is a chance to get to

471
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 2: know them, to figure out how to work together. Even

472
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 2: if you don't like somebody, right, you're going to have

473
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 2: to work with them to be the best versions of

474
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 2: yourself and to help them be the best version of themselves.

475
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 2: And so again, I mean I think when we it's

476
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 2: not just about community. It's not just about the coaches

477
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 2: for supporting the athletes. Of course it is, but it's

478
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 2: also about how we learn to relate to each other

479
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 2: and have hard conversations.

480
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:45,479
Speaker 4: Like you gotta be the first person I've met that

481
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 4: come from Montana.

482
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 2: It's beautiful. It's beautiful.

483
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 3: I'm trying to remember. I'm like, have all of the

484
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 3: people that have met haven't met anybody from Montana? That's amazing.

485
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that.

486
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 2: I was.

487
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 1: I mean, this is one of many thoughts I had

488
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 1: when I was after I finished the book. But it's

489
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 1: so true that, you know, being in sport does you

490
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 1: have to learn how to navigate with people, how to

491
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 1: work with people you might not agree with. But I

492
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 1: think you also have to learn how to lose. You

493
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 1: have to learn how to lose gracefully. And a lot

494
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: of these when I see a lot of like anti

495
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 1: trans athlete rhetoric, I feel like some of it is

496
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 1: coming from a place of you never learned to do that,

497
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 1: so you actually didn't learn what the sport should have

498
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 1: taught you.

499
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 2: You know. Part of what I love about sport is

500
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 2: that often when you are competing with somebody or against somebody.

501
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 2: They are going to see the best versions of you

502
00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 2: and the worst versions of you, and you're going to

503
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 2: see the best version of them and the odorst versions

504
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 2: of them. So there is sort of this inherent trust

505
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 2: in some ways that comes with participating in sport, and

506
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 2: I think that's also something that I really wish we

507
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:19,479
Speaker 2: had more of. I love the idea of being truly

508
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 2: vulnerable in sport, and sport frankly, I think is one

509
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 2: of the spaces where most men feel like they can

510
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 2: be vulnerable. Yeah, just interesting.

511
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 1: I think we did talk about that in our Male

512
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 1: Only this epidemic because it's one of the few things

513
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 1: they would do, like as in a friend group or

514
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 1: even if it's just watching sports. So yeah, that is interesting. Well,

515
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 1: I know this is a big question. We've talked about

516
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 1: it before on our show. But before we move into

517
00:33:55,360 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 1: the future of what we could maybe build better, this

518
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 1: didn't come out of nowhere, you do discuss the history

519
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 1: of gender segregation in sports and how it sort of

520
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 1: led us to where we are right now. And you

521
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 1: know some of the organizations you mentioned how they are

522
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:19,839
Speaker 1: trying to change, But can you talk a little bit

523
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,360
Speaker 1: about the history for a second.

524
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess I should say first, I don't think

525
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,280
Speaker 2: we can talk we can have this conversation without also

526
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 2: talking about race. When we look at the history of sport,

527
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 2: it's pretty clear, right, like people have been excluded, separate

528
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 2: but equal was a refrain, to be clear, that did

529
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:49,240
Speaker 2: not work out well, both when it came to race

530
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 2: and when it came to sex or the separation of

531
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 2: men and women. When we look at the history of

532
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:05,720
Speaker 2: binarid sport, a lot of people talk about how Title

533
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 2: nine was written so that women could have a separate

534
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 2: space of sport and could be protected in sport. That's

535
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,879
Speaker 2: actually not why Title nine was written, and that's not

536
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 2: really how binaried sport began. So Title nine, this educational amendment,

537
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 2: was passed and enacted in the early nineteen seventies, and

538
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 2: the impetus behind it was we want to give the

539
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 2: underrepresented sex more resources in education systems. So actually a

540
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 2: big part of this was about allowing women to get

541
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,880
Speaker 2: into law schools and medical schools. But the history is

542
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 2: more complicated than that. Regardless, sport was sort of a

543
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 2: byproduct of that. Right, people weren't necessarily considering sport at all,

544
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 2: but it turned out most federal education systems or education

545
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 2: systems that receive any federal funding, which is almost all

546
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,879
Speaker 2: schools in this country, then needed to comply with Title

547
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 2: nine and not applied to sport. So all of a sudden, girls'

548
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 2: sports programs were getting money where girls were given access

549
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 2: to sport in ways that they had never had been

550
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:29,880
Speaker 2: and there ultimately was a lot of tension between men's

551
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:35,319
Speaker 2: sport and women's sport. Actually, the NC Double A and

552
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 2: really the people who were spearheading men's American Football and

553
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 2: the NC Double A are the ones who push for

554
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 2: binary sport. Because a lot of women started participating in

555
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,800
Speaker 2: sport and they started to gain a lot of traction

556
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,360
Speaker 2: really quickly. There were a huge number of spectators, a

557
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 2: lot of money going into women's sport pretty early on,

558
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 2: and ultimately there were people who said, we don't like this,

559
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 2: we don't feel like there's enough money to go around,

560
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,280
Speaker 2: so we're going to contain women over in this corner

561
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 2: of sport so that men could maintain their rights to television, radio,

562
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:29,320
Speaker 2: and other forms of income related to sport. So again,

563
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 2: I mean there's a lot there, But I think when

564
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:43,319
Speaker 2: we talk about when we talk about trans women, a

565
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 2: lot of times people will say to me, it's unfair

566
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 2: because they're taking away opportunities from CIS women. And I

567
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 2: think we need to talk about that fear because I

568
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 2: hear it all the time. You hear it from certain

569
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:05,760
Speaker 2: politicians and anti trans women advocates. I think that fear

570
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 2: is valid to say, I'm afraid that somebody is going

571
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 2: to come in and men or men might come in

572
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:16,280
Speaker 2: and take over women's sport, And that fear is valid

573
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 2: because men have done that in women's sport. They still

574
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:29,720
Speaker 2: try to, but trans women aren't men, right, So again,

575
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:33,920
Speaker 2: I think it's this. It's a curious transference of our

576
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 2: fear of scarcity and our fear of what causes scarcity

577
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 2: in certain systems that's being transferred over to trans folks.

578
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 2: Women's sport is scarce, right, There is a scarcity mindset

579
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 2: whenever we talk about this, and it's because women's sport

580
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:04,360
Speaker 2: is scarce. It's underfunded across the board. We don't get access,

581
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 2: we don't get sponsorships in the ways that men's sports do.

582
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:13,520
Speaker 2: We never have. Still to this day, almost all institutions

583
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 2: are out of compliance with Title nine. But that scarcity

584
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:22,880
Speaker 2: didn't come from trans athletes. So what if instead of

585
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,439
Speaker 2: talking about trans athletes, we talk about how to make

586
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 2: sport less scarce for women and for men and for

587
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 2: trans athletes. We's start there.

588
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, you do talk about the scarcity model in this conversation,

589
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,719
Speaker 4: and again this goes overall to all things intersectional, when

590
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:45,839
Speaker 4: we talk about glass ceiling, for work, job, career, all

591
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 4: of that, it holds. But the one thing that has

592
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 4: worked as the boogeyman, the underlying idea is that if

593
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 4: we can hold limits for those who are marginalized, then

594
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 4: those who have already won or are already on top,

595
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 4: can remain on top. Which again is that conversation, and

596
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:09,359
Speaker 4: you talk about it, and you're very open in your book

597
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,360
Speaker 4: about how you came to this point of understanding, of

598
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:14,800
Speaker 4: letting go of your own fears and because of the

599
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:19,319
Speaker 4: scarcely amount realizing where the problem was, has begotten where

600
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 4: the problem lies. It's kind of that same level of

601
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:24,439
Speaker 4: conversation about billionaires when we talk about people not having

602
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 4: jobs and such, or are like.

603
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 3: M, it's not those who you're stealing jobs from? You

604
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 3: can we talk about that.

605
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 4: We're not gonna talk about that, but I'm just saying

606
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 4: that that's kind of that top point.

607
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 3: But how does that like, how did you come to

608
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 3: that point of understanding?

609
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:39,319
Speaker 4: This is where it is, This is the fear, This

610
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 4: is the basis of why we are scapegoating trans people

611
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 4: in general in this moment, and why this is only

612
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 4: the beginning for a larger conversation.

613
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:57,920
Speaker 2: Well, I think for me it was a journey. You know,

614
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 2: Ellie and I talk a lot about her journey in

615
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 2: this too, And Ellie was right off the bat like,

616
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 2: this is not right, that's it, like, let's figure it out.

617
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:14,319
Speaker 2: And for me it was much more complicated. And I

618
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:16,319
Speaker 2: think part of that is because a lot of my

619
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 2: own identity and my career was tied up in women's

620
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 2: sport in a very particular way. But for me, you know,

621
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 2: I what I was being told, essentially, I think, is

622
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 2: what a lot of people have been told. If we

623
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:40,440
Speaker 2: allow trans athletes to enter women's sport, that's a slippery

624
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 2: slope and what does that mean for competition and women's

625
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 2: sport broadly? I did a lot of research, As I said,

626
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 2: I mean it took me years of looking at the

627
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 2: research and having a lot of conversations with trans athletes

628
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 2: and sis athletes to get to the point where I

629
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 2: could say, yeah, no, that's this just isn't right. It's

630
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:09,279
Speaker 2: just not right. But I raise that too because I think,

631
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:14,800
Speaker 2: you know, early in my career, when I was hired

632
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 2: by this LGBTQ rights organization, it was sort of positioned

633
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:21,799
Speaker 2: to me like you're either four trans athletes or you're

634
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 2: against them, like there are two camps, and I just

635
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 2: I think that's also a false narrative that we need

636
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 2: to address. Right. First of all, there are a lot

637
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 2: of people who are in the middle. But beyond that,

638
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 2: I think it's also the fact that we're human beings

639
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:41,720
Speaker 2: who can learn, and who can be curious, and who's

640
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:46,240
Speaker 2: you know, thinking can evolve. And for me that did happen.

641
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 2: I was pretty intimidated by this topic overall, and as

642
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 2: I learned more, I mean, now my convictions are very clear,

643
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 2: but I think it took a lot. And something I

644
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 2: talk talk about in the book too, is it actually

645
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 2: took something pretty extreme, which was my dad died sort

646
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 2: of out of the blue, and as soon as that happened,

647
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:19,239
Speaker 2: you know, they say that grief concentrates them now on love,

648
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:23,400
Speaker 2: and for me, that was definitely the case. I realized

649
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 2: in this moment of grief. If I really focus on

650
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:34,319
Speaker 2: what I love, I could set my fears aside and

651
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 2: I could see everything much much more clearly. Now. My hope,

652
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 2: of course, is not that everybody has to have something

653
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 2: that extreme, But the point is, if we can put

654
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 2: our fears to the side, what do we really think

655
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:52,919
Speaker 2: about this? And why am I privileging my fear over

656
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 2: somebody else's.

657
00:43:54,400 --> 00:44:08,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's kind of a daunting thing. But you did

658
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 1: discuss how we could build a better system that may

659
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:18,319
Speaker 1: be of sports that is more inclusive, and what that

660
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 1: could look like. Could you talk about that.

661
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:26,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course we've talked a lot, and it's been

662
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 2: a little bit sad, it maybe a little depressing, But

663
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 2: the bottom line is, you know, I think this is

664
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 2: a wonderful moment for sport because in some ways it's

665
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 2: allowing us to really interrogate what's going on in sport,

666
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:45,879
Speaker 2: what's working and what's not working, and when we can

667
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:50,840
Speaker 2: get curious and imaginative about sport. I think there's a

668
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:53,839
Speaker 2: lot of possibility and a lot of what we talked

669
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:57,280
Speaker 2: about two is the idea that what if we didn't

670
00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 2: fear trans athletes, but what if we look to trans

671
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:02,720
Speaker 2: athletes and said, hey, what could the future of sport

672
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:07,959
Speaker 2: look like? Right for the people who are most marginalized

673
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 2: in sport, arguably, to ask them what could a future

674
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:19,840
Speaker 2: of sport look like? What they suggest is brilliant and beautiful.

675
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:24,400
Speaker 2: One example I want to give, and this is a

676
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 2: little bit dark again, but I think it really highlights

677
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 2: for me one of the ways that we could reconsider

678
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 2: trans athletes involvement in sport. So I have a friend

679
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 2: trans woman who was a very high level rower in

680
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 2: international rowing. She left her home country. She went to

681
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 2: Canada and was rowing in elite Canadian boats on the

682
00:45:55,520 --> 00:46:01,400
Speaker 2: women's side, and I asked her about some of her experiences.

683
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:05,000
Speaker 2: She told me a story of one of her coaches.

684
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 2: So she was competing in Canada. Team Canada hired a

685
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 2: new assistant coach for the women's team. This young man

686
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:20,320
Speaker 2: came over from some other country and the first time

687
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:25,359
Speaker 2: he walked into their space, she said, something doesn't feel

688
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 2: right about this guy. And her teammates all said, no,

689
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 2: that's just kind of men coaches, that's sort of like

690
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 2: how they are around women athletes. Turns out, of course,

691
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 2: two years later, allegations came out about him abusing athletes.

692
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 2: And you know, my friend just said, yeah, I've been

693
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:53,400
Speaker 2: pointing this out the whole time. And the reason I

694
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 2: can point it out is because growing up and participating

695
00:46:56,760 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 2: in men's sport, I had never seen that, right, and

696
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:06,239
Speaker 2: so immediately I knew this isn't this isn't right, this

697
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 2: isn't normal. And to hear all of the women say, yeah,

698
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:16,839
Speaker 2: it's a little bit weird, but fine, it's normal, right.

699
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:20,399
Speaker 2: I mean, that indicates so much to me about first

700
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 2: of all, how men are treated in our sporting systems,

701
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:27,360
Speaker 2: how women are treated in our sporting systems, but also

702
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 2: what would it look like if we had people who

703
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 2: could help us navigate creating healthier sport on both sides, right.

704
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 2: I mean that's one sort of silly example, but I

705
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:48,320
Speaker 2: think or one serious example. But some other examples, of course,

706
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 2: are like, it's not complicated, make sport free, get every

707
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:56,719
Speaker 2: kid in sport. If you want to talk about fairness

708
00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 2: in sport, the first stup you can take is to

709
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:06,160
Speaker 2: give everybody free access to sport. Right. We give a

710
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:10,000
Speaker 2: lot of other examples, of course, but I think the

711
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 2: bottom line for us is we want this to be

712
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:16,920
Speaker 2: an invitation. While everybody's talking about sport, while people are

713
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:19,719
Speaker 2: talking about trans athletes and sport, even people who maybe

714
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 2: don't have a vested interest in sport. Let's talk about

715
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 2: how we can utilize this moment to figure out how

716
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:28,360
Speaker 2: to make sport a better social system for all people.

717
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:31,840
Speaker 2: The end, right, the end.

718
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:32,279
Speaker 3: I love it.

719
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 4: I'm over here in the amen choir going mm hmm,

720
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:39,680
Speaker 4: that's right, Amen, Amen. But it is this conversation of

721
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:44,320
Speaker 4: when it comes to intersectionality, when the most marginalized community

722
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:48,799
Speaker 4: gets equity, then everyone are on equal playing fields, and

723
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:52,720
Speaker 4: that benefits everyone. And it's just quite just this level

724
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:55,960
Speaker 4: of simplicity that it's not talked about enough. But at

725
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 4: the same time, that is the most difficult thing for

726
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 4: a lot of people to understand and to even visualize.

727
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:04,160
Speaker 3: Honestly, even those who hope for it.

728
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:04,880
Speaker 2: I can't.

729
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 4: I couldn't imagine what that actually looks like, which makes

730
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 4: me sad.

731
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:11,880
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I did want to ask you both.

732
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 2: I meant to ask you before we started, but I've

733
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:20,320
Speaker 2: listened to your podcast and I'm curious what your personal

734
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 2: relationships are to sport. If you're willing to talk about it, Annie,

735
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:28,280
Speaker 2: go ahead.

736
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:34,799
Speaker 1: I was very competitive kid. I grew up playing a

737
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:38,720
Speaker 1: lot of different sports. A lot of it was for fun.

738
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:43,920
Speaker 1: When I was asked to actually compete, like at a

739
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:46,319
Speaker 1: I got really good at gymnastics and I got asked

740
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:49,799
Speaker 1: to go to a competition, and I quit because I

741
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:52,960
Speaker 1: had like a fear of proving, I guess, proving the

742
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:56,319
Speaker 1: stereotype like oh, she's not actually good. And then when

743
00:49:56,360 --> 00:50:00,400
Speaker 1: I got older and I became uncomfortable with my body,

744
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:04,680
Speaker 1: I quit. I pretty much quit, but I loved it,

745
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 1: Like I thought it was so fun and competitive and

746
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:13,600
Speaker 1: just I loved it until all these We.

747
00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 2: Did have a creepy, creepy coach too.

748
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:18,760
Speaker 1: By the way, all these other things kind of encroached

749
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:21,200
Speaker 1: that I was told, like you can't be too good,

750
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 1: or no boy will want to date you, which good riddance.

751
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:27,640
Speaker 2: I think that could.

752
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 1: Care less than get. But at the time I was like,

753
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:35,480
Speaker 1: oh no, so I did do what you said earlier

754
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:38,880
Speaker 1: of kind of making myself smaller, And then eventually retreated

755
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:43,680
Speaker 1: all together. And when I got older, I got much

756
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 1: more into like things I could do by myself, which

757
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:47,640
Speaker 1: I guess is kind of sad, But I got into

758
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:49,400
Speaker 1: like knife throwing and stuff.

759
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:52,000
Speaker 2: She do too.

760
00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:56,480
Speaker 3: And Arrowstually, I don't know why I said like that.

761
00:50:56,560 --> 00:50:57,239
Speaker 3: I know what that is.

762
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but I look back and it does make

763
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:05,319
Speaker 1: me really sad because I think I would have really

764
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:06,719
Speaker 1: enjoyed it. I had a lot of friends on the

765
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:08,319
Speaker 1: soccer team. I think I would have had a great

766
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:10,680
Speaker 1: time if I stayed. But I was just I was

767
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:14,640
Speaker 1: so self conscious and so worried about how other people

768
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:16,920
Speaker 1: would perceive me, particularly men and boys.

769
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 2: So I quit.

770
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:22,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, for me, I grew up in a very rural town,

771
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 4: and so the accessibility part there wasn't a lot of

772
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:27,120
Speaker 4: different sports. It was football, you know, It's one of

773
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:29,879
Speaker 4: those like you got football, you got baseball, you got

774
00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:35,319
Speaker 4: basketball and running. And I'm also very grew up with

775
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:37,560
Speaker 4: a lot of trauma. We love trauma around here, right,

776
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:40,520
Speaker 4: And so that made me and that if I'm not

777
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:42,360
Speaker 4: the best, then I shouldn't do it at all, Like

778
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:44,879
Speaker 4: it's kind of that level. And so I didn't even

779
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:48,280
Speaker 4: want to try if I didn't think that I could

780
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:50,640
Speaker 4: be the best. Like at this level of anxiety of

781
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:53,759
Speaker 4: performance anxiety as well as I had to prove myself

782
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:57,440
Speaker 4: as existing, so proving myself in sports was even harder.

783
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:01,000
Speaker 4: I as an adult. I really got too though, finally

784
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:04,360
Speaker 4: started doing things like running, and I really did enjoy

785
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:07,000
Speaker 4: doing like half marathons and such until my body was like,

786
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:10,919
Speaker 4: you're too old for this. Stop it. It was really

787
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:13,759
Speaker 4: nice and the commodity of like runners seeing each other,

788
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 4: like giving each other a nod type of thing, and

789
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:19,319
Speaker 4: then doing the races was really fun. And I think

790
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:22,200
Speaker 4: more of like I did cheer, so you know, but

791
00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:24,840
Speaker 4: you know how that becomes very feminized, especially in a

792
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:27,759
Speaker 4: rural town, in that it's not sport, it's not competitive,

793
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 4: and I'm like, I don't know, we compete. I don't

794
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 4: know what you mean, but but stuff like that. So

795
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:35,200
Speaker 4: it was very small opportunities because as I grew up,

796
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:37,799
Speaker 4: I was like, man that existed, I would have loved

797
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:39,759
Speaker 4: to try that because it seemed like I had a

798
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 4: lot of anger issues and I would have loved to

799
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:44,600
Speaker 4: try some would like you know, those sports that help

800
00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:47,799
Speaker 4: you get out. That meditated a little bit. So it

801
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:50,080
Speaker 4: was a It's an interesting story in that level of again,

802
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:51,279
Speaker 4: what is accessible?

803
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:52,160
Speaker 3: Who has the money?

804
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:54,800
Speaker 4: And also I grew up in a fairly not poor family,

805
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:57,360
Speaker 4: but we definitely didn't have extra money, and I was

806
00:52:57,440 --> 00:52:59,640
Speaker 4: the youngest child so by the time it got to me,

807
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:03,759
Speaker 4: the funds were a little more dry. So being able

808
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:06,919
Speaker 4: to afford even recreational sportes, you know, trying to get

809
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:09,400
Speaker 4: the uniforms and any of those stuff was actually a

810
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:11,960
Speaker 4: lot of money. Traveling cost a lot of money for

811
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:16,720
Speaker 4: even children's recreational stuff. So I was definitely less prone

812
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 4: to be in sports. I was a nerd that left

813
00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:21,320
Speaker 4: to read books instead.

814
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:25,960
Speaker 3: Me too, That's the way I in that category. Yeah,

815
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:27,319
Speaker 3: you still.

816
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:30,400
Speaker 1: Though, you still exercise, and I did. I used to

817
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 1: run a lot too.

818
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:37,319
Speaker 4: I forgot more than me. She went like marathons during

819
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:38,520
Speaker 4: the week just for the heck of it.

820
00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:41,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, And then I said I wasn't a runner, and

821
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:42,759
Speaker 1: the guy who was selling me shoes was like, did

822
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:45,240
Speaker 1: you just tell me you run half marathon every weekend.

823
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:51,319
Speaker 1: I was like yeah, He's like, you're a runner. Oh

824
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:53,080
Speaker 1: got it, got it.

825
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:57,160
Speaker 3: She still does the Pchtree road race. That's huge down here.

826
00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:01,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I thank you both for for saying that. I

827
00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:04,640
Speaker 2: was really curious as I've been, you know, listening to

828
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 2: the podcast. You know, I think a lot like, okay,

829
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:15,200
Speaker 2: so my objective in life trans athletes. You know, I'm

830
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:17,480
Speaker 2: talking a lot about them right now. But the bottom

831
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:23,040
Speaker 2: line is, I really want people to feel more confident

832
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:26,640
Speaker 2: in their bodies. I think we live in a society

833
00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:34,120
Speaker 2: and a world that constantly, constantly tells us to not

834
00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:38,480
Speaker 2: trust our bodies, to not be in our bodies, to

835
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:46,440
Speaker 2: not like our bodies, to not appreciate our bodies. And

836
00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:51,240
Speaker 2: I just, I truly believe that a more embodied world,

837
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:59,920
Speaker 2: with more embodied people would be not just more free,

838
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:06,480
Speaker 2: but more welcoming for everyone. And I think a lot

839
00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:09,520
Speaker 2: of what you just talked about and your own experiences

840
00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:15,399
Speaker 2: and sport, that's precisely what we need to solve all

841
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:18,240
Speaker 2: of that. It should not be the case that somebody

842
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:22,200
Speaker 2: says to you you're not a runner, right, I mean,

843
00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:27,080
Speaker 2: whether you're saying it to yourself, somebody got that story

844
00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:34,200
Speaker 2: in your head, right, Let's do better for everybody.

845
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:35,839
Speaker 4: Yes, I think we need you around just to give

846
00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:39,359
Speaker 4: us the pep talk, let inspire pep talk.

847
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:41,720
Speaker 3: In the end, we might just need you to come back,

848
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:43,120
Speaker 3: you know.

849
00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:46,560
Speaker 6: I'm also like it's one of the few places where

850
00:55:46,600 --> 00:55:51,040
Speaker 6: I get to be like really silly, Like it used

851
00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:52,840
Speaker 6: to be the case that it was one of the

852
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:55,840
Speaker 6: few spaces where I felt like I could be truly

853
00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:58,319
Speaker 6: competitive and not judged for it.

854
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:01,520
Speaker 2: And now I'm like, it's one of the few spaces

855
00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:03,200
Speaker 2: as an adult where I feel like I get to

856
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:07,560
Speaker 2: be like silly and I get to like mess up,

857
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:11,239
Speaker 2: and I guess if somebody judges me, I'm like.

858
00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:13,799
Speaker 3: Whatever, you're not doing it. I'm doing it.

859
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:18,759
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, But like god, I just want that for everybody.

860
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:20,319
Speaker 2: I want us to all have a space where we

861
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:24,120
Speaker 2: can go and just like be, just be with ourselves.

862
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:28,399
Speaker 1: Well, thank you, thank you, thank you so much for

863
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:31,520
Speaker 1: being here. You have been a delight. We would love

864
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:36,239
Speaker 1: to have you back. Where can the good listeners find you?

865
00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:44,400
Speaker 2: Social media of course, doctor Bay PhD on Instagram, LinkedIn.

866
00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:50,640
Speaker 2: Of course I don't use x I'll have a website,

867
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:55,359
Speaker 2: And of course, you know, highly encourage folks to buy

868
00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:59,080
Speaker 2: the book. Most often we say too, even if you

869
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:02,360
Speaker 2: don't read the book, hopefully there's somebody in your life

870
00:57:02,640 --> 00:57:07,160
Speaker 2: who you can give the book too. So maybe it's

871
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:12,400
Speaker 2: you know, uncle Joe. Next year Thanksgiving. When you mentioned

872
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:15,160
Speaker 2: that you are a women's sports fan and this topic

873
00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:19,120
Speaker 2: comes up, it's a great talking point. But of course,

874
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:24,240
Speaker 2: also please feel free to follow Ellie, Ellie Rocher and

875
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:27,560
Speaker 2: Chris Mosher and for folks who are really looking for

876
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 2: activations and ways to get more involved, Chris always offers

877
00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:37,320
Speaker 2: great device, great talking points and great action steps people

878
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:40,960
Speaker 2: can take on his instagram, the Chris Mosher.

879
00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:43,800
Speaker 4: And the name of the book is Fair Game, trans

880
00:57:43,840 --> 00:57:47,600
Speaker 4: Athlete and the Future of Sports by Ellie Rocher and

881
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:49,840
Speaker 4: doctor Anna Bit. And I'm going to put that out

882
00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:51,640
Speaker 4: there again because you know, I don't know if we've

883
00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:53,200
Speaker 4: said the title too many times. We need to say

884
00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:56,560
Speaker 4: it more. And it's a fantastic book. It's an amazing read,

885
00:57:56,960 --> 00:58:00,720
Speaker 4: and I think it's very important for today in context

886
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:04,200
Speaker 4: is what well every day, but especially with everything going down,

887
00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:07,680
Speaker 4: and especially to note what is happening in this time

888
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:10,600
Speaker 4: before everything is being silenced in a race.

889
00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:14,560
Speaker 1: Yes, if you would like to contact us, you can

890
00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:17,160
Speaker 1: or email is Hello at stuff wenever told you dot com.

891
00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:19,200
Speaker 1: We're also on Blue Skye Mom Stuff podcasts or on

892
00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:21,800
Speaker 1: Instagram and TikTok at stuff I've never told you. We

893
00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:26,040
Speaker 1: have a YouTube channel. We have some merchandise at copp Bureau,

894
00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:27,680
Speaker 1: and we have a book you can get where if

895
00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:29,680
Speaker 1: you get your books. Thanks as always to here as

896
00:58:29,680 --> 00:58:33,000
Speaker 1: superducer Christina Executive Prusin Maya and our contributor Joey. Thank

897
00:58:33,040 --> 00:58:35,280
Speaker 1: you and thanks to you for listening stuff I've Never

898
00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:37,200
Speaker 1: told you Instruction by Heart Radio. For more podcast from

899
00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:38,560
Speaker 1: my Heart Radio, you can check out the I Heart

900
00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:40,680
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

901
00:58:40,680 --> 00:58:50,480
Speaker 1: favorite shows,