1
00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:07,040
Speaker 1: Happy Saturday. Continuing with our theme of ghost stories and hauntings,

2
00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:12,720
Speaker 1: today we are revisiting the allegedly haunted island of Pavlia. Unfortunately,

3
00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:15,520
Speaker 1: we do not have any updates on efforts to make

4
00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:18,400
Speaker 1: at least part of this into public lands. That's something

5
00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:20,960
Speaker 1: we talk about a bit in the episode. If there's

6
00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:24,320
Speaker 1: been any movement on that, I haven't got anything about it.

7
00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:27,560
Speaker 1: And this episode originally came out on October tenth of

8
00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:34,400
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen. Enjoy Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class,

9
00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:44,480
Speaker 1: a production of iHeartRadio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.

10
00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:48,360
Speaker 1: I'm Holly Frye and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. Tracy, we

11
00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:53,720
Speaker 1: are officially into creepy hunted places time we are, but

12
00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:55,560
Speaker 1: as people who have listened to the show in the

13
00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:59,560
Speaker 1: past and particularly our Halloween episodes might know. Sometimes even

14
00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:03,000
Speaker 1: the creepy things, we have to talk about the explanations

15
00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:08,760
Speaker 1: and validity versus not of those creepy haunted claims. So

16
00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:12,000
Speaker 1: if you just want a ghost story, you might be disappointed. Well,

17
00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:16,880
Speaker 1: and this is one of those cases where the reporting

18
00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:23,080
Speaker 1: of the ghosts is very different between like English speaking

19
00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:29,679
Speaker 1: ghost hunters and locals. Yes, for sure. Today's topic is

20
00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:33,319
Speaker 1: actually about what is now an uninhabited island that has

21
00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:35,760
Speaker 1: come to be called all manner of spooky things in

22
00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:40,319
Speaker 1: some of the rather more sensationalist discussions of it, including

23
00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:43,680
Speaker 1: Plague Island and the Island of Ghosts and the Venetian

24
00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:46,120
Speaker 1: Island of No Return, which I love, But plenty of

25
00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:47,800
Speaker 1: people have gone there and looked around and come back,

26
00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:52,400
Speaker 1: so that doesn't really seem valid. And since we're headed

27
00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:55,080
Speaker 1: into Halloween, it seemed like the perfect time to tackle

28
00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:58,320
Speaker 1: this odd, tiny little patch of land in the lagoon

29
00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:01,080
Speaker 1: surrounding Venice. And first we're going to talk a little

30
00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:03,760
Speaker 1: bit about the island itself, which is Pavilia, and then

31
00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,040
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about its history and finally some

32
00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,240
Speaker 1: of the legends that have given it all of those

33
00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:12,120
Speaker 1: scary monikers. And there is the creepiness even before we

34
00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:16,440
Speaker 1: get to that part. Oh sure, there's always a little creepiness,

35
00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:19,239
Speaker 1: especially when a place that's been around for a long time.

36
00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:23,440
Speaker 1: And the tiny island of Pavlias sits south of Venice proper,

37
00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:28,359
Speaker 1: it's west of the Venice Ldo Sandbar in the Venice Lagoon. Yeah,

38
00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:29,960
Speaker 1: if you look at a map of Venice. There's the

39
00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:32,320
Speaker 1: tight cluster of islands that make up sort of what

40
00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:34,720
Speaker 1: I would call the city proper. And then that sand

41
00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:39,160
Speaker 1: bar extends to the east of that down kind of

42
00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:41,600
Speaker 1: in a southerly direction at a slight angle. And then

43
00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:45,840
Speaker 1: Pavilia is kind of towards the base of that sandbar

44
00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:50,080
Speaker 1: in the lagoon, and Pavilia is viewed from above, is

45
00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:52,880
Speaker 1: shaped sort of and I really have to make clear

46
00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:55,040
Speaker 1: that it's a sort of sort of like a narrow

47
00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:58,160
Speaker 1: fan in what looks like three pieces when you're viewing

48
00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:01,240
Speaker 1: it from an aerial shot. At the southern end of

49
00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,440
Speaker 1: the island is an octagonal shape, and it's separated from

50
00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:07,799
Speaker 1: the rest by a little bit of water. And then

51
00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:11,160
Speaker 1: the remaining fan, which is about seven point five hectares

52
00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:15,160
Speaker 1: or eighteen point six acres, is bisected by a canal

53
00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:18,240
Speaker 1: that runs across it roughly east to west, and there

54
00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:20,440
Speaker 1: is a footbridge that connects the two sections of the

55
00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:23,720
Speaker 1: island that are separated by that canal. It almost doesn't

56
00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:28,240
Speaker 1: look like a real thing viewed from the to me. Yeah,

57
00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:30,200
Speaker 1: So there are a number of buildings on the island

58
00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:32,760
Speaker 1: that includes the remains of a church, a hospital, and

59
00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:35,760
Speaker 1: a series of smaller structures that appear to have been

60
00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:40,280
Speaker 1: staff housing and administration buildings. Yeah, and if you're looking

61
00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:43,360
Speaker 1: at it, like I said, in those two land pieces

62
00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:46,640
Speaker 1: connected by a bridge, the southerly one is the one

63
00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:49,960
Speaker 1: where the buildings are. The one to the north doesn't

64
00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:54,160
Speaker 1: really have anything built on it. And access to Pavilion

65
00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:57,120
Speaker 1: would normally happen via boat from Venice, but there are

66
00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:00,920
Speaker 1: no regularly running ferries or water shuttles. You cannot just

67
00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:03,440
Speaker 1: ask someone with a boat to take you there because

68
00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:06,360
Speaker 1: most of them won't go. And this is usually choked

69
00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:10,600
Speaker 1: up to some sort of you know, sinister reason, either

70
00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:14,600
Speaker 1: that people are too superstitious to go near it, or

71
00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,800
Speaker 1: on a more practical level, that they just aren't interested

72
00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:21,200
Speaker 1: in tourists, adding to the morass of ghost stories about

73
00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:24,000
Speaker 1: the island. But the reality of the situation is actually

74
00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:27,640
Speaker 1: quite mundane. It is just off limits to visitors. So

75
00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:31,440
Speaker 1: Pavlia's beginnings aren't all that well documented, but it's likely

76
00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:33,760
Speaker 1: that it served as a haven in the fifth century

77
00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,960
Speaker 1: for people who were fleeing invaders to the European continent.

78
00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:41,200
Speaker 1: At that point, it was called Popilia, most likely derived

79
00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:45,000
Speaker 1: from someone's family name. The island was inhabited into the

80
00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:49,680
Speaker 1: early ninth century, when its existing population left as Charlemagne's

81
00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:52,760
Speaker 1: son Pepin attacked Venice. But by the end of the

82
00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,920
Speaker 1: ninth century it was once again inhabited and it had

83
00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:58,679
Speaker 1: developed a small but stable economy that was mostly based

84
00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:02,480
Speaker 1: on fishing. Was erected on the island in the twelfth century.

85
00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:05,480
Speaker 1: It was named for Saint Detaale, and the only remaining

86
00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,400
Speaker 1: structure from that church is its bell tower. The church

87
00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,200
Speaker 1: itself was eventually demolished, and in the early nineteenth century

88
00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:15,400
Speaker 1: that bell tower was converted into a lighthouse and it

89
00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:18,080
Speaker 1: remains and it is the tallest structure on the island.

90
00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:22,039
Speaker 1: In the fourteenth century, the Venetians ended a very long

91
00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,120
Speaker 1: conflict with the Genoese, and this was actually a late

92
00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:27,720
Speaker 1: stage of a whole series of conflicts that had started

93
00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:31,159
Speaker 1: one hundred years earlier. In the mid thirteenth century, the

94
00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,680
Speaker 1: Venetians were driven north to the larger island of Judica,

95
00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:38,120
Speaker 1: and these conflicts led to this design and construction of

96
00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:43,039
Speaker 1: fortifications in the lagoon. So an octagonal fortress, which we

97
00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:46,000
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, was built on the island of Pavilia after

98
00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:48,920
Speaker 1: the fourteenth century. That's what forms that base of that

99
00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,000
Speaker 1: sort of fan shape that I described, And this was

100
00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:54,359
Speaker 1: one of several forts in the area that were built

101
00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,799
Speaker 1: to protect Venice. In addition to the octagon at Pavilia,

102
00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:00,919
Speaker 1: there was the Arsenal in Venice proper, the fort on

103
00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:04,480
Speaker 1: the island of Sant Andrea, and another octagon at Alberoni.

104
00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:08,200
Speaker 1: And this group of fortifications has actually been nominated as

105
00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:12,200
Speaker 1: a UNESCO World Heritage Site under the umbrella name Venetian

106
00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:16,080
Speaker 1: Works of Defense between fifteenth and seventeenth centuries. When you

107
00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:19,680
Speaker 1: look at the aerial views of the island, this octagonal

108
00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:23,039
Speaker 1: fort combined with the canal are what really makes it

109
00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,560
Speaker 1: look like to me, like is this a theme park ride?

110
00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:30,000
Speaker 1: It does look a little. It looks to me also

111
00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:34,280
Speaker 1: sometimes like a very fat punctuation mark, like an exclamation

112
00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:37,000
Speaker 1: point in the fort makes the dot at the bottom. Sure,

113
00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:42,440
Speaker 1: but it's not a normal shape. No. Pavelio was briefly

114
00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:45,960
Speaker 1: part of the Austrian Empire before Napoleon conquered it for France,

115
00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:48,359
Speaker 1: and it was during this time that the Church of

116
00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,760
Speaker 1: Sant Pittale was brought down and the lighthouse was converted,

117
00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:54,880
Speaker 1: and during the Napoleonic Wars in the first two decades

118
00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:58,160
Speaker 1: of the nineteenth century. The fortress on Pavilion was used

119
00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:01,159
Speaker 1: first by Napoleon as a place to stash weapons, and

120
00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:04,159
Speaker 1: then it was repurposed by English soldiers as a location

121
00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:07,359
Speaker 1: from which they could launch an ambush on French ships.

122
00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:10,360
Speaker 1: And according to legend, the prisoners that they took in

123
00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:14,280
Speaker 1: these ambushes were taken to the island and killed, and

124
00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:16,320
Speaker 1: then their ships were left to sink in the lagoon.

125
00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:18,760
Speaker 1: There is one legend I don't go into later, that

126
00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:20,920
Speaker 1: there are still French ships just sitting there at the

127
00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:23,960
Speaker 1: bottom of the lagoon. Pavalia was also used as a

128
00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:28,000
Speaker 1: lazaretto or a maritime quarantine location as part of the

129
00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:32,240
Speaker 1: Public Health office. As Venice has been an important seaport

130
00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:34,600
Speaker 1: all through its history, it's often had to take measures

131
00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:37,400
Speaker 1: to ensure that visitors and traders who were traveling through

132
00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:41,120
Speaker 1: the city would not bring an outbreak of disease with them.

133
00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:45,040
Speaker 1: That sort of outbreak could quickly devastate the population of

134
00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:48,800
Speaker 1: a city like Venice, and similarly, if Venice had an

135
00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:52,160
Speaker 1: outbreak of disease, those leaving could carry it and then

136
00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:55,080
Speaker 1: spread it far and wide. So to that end, both

137
00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,320
Speaker 1: incoming and outgoing travelers would have to wait either on

138
00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,160
Speaker 1: their ships off the coast or on the island of

139
00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,920
Speaker 1: Pavilia for a period of forty days to ensure that

140
00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:06,920
Speaker 1: they were not brewing a potential health crisis before they

141
00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:09,680
Speaker 1: were granted admittance to the city or before they were

142
00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:13,320
Speaker 1: let go, and this is claimed in some sources as

143
00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:16,240
Speaker 1: the origin of the word quarantine. So Caranta is the

144
00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:20,280
Speaker 1: Italian word for forty. Ferdinand von Geram, who was a

145
00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:23,920
Speaker 1: commander of a volunteer corps of Viennese soldiers to fight

146
00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:26,800
Speaker 1: against Napoleon the First, wrote an account of his time

147
00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:30,160
Speaker 1: in quarantine in his book that was called A Pilgrimage

148
00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:33,200
Speaker 1: to Palestine, Egypt and Syria. That book was published in

149
00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:37,600
Speaker 1: eighteen forty and the account that's dated September sixth, eighteen

150
00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:40,600
Speaker 1: thirty one reads as follows. I am on board the

151
00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:43,720
Speaker 1: ship Ulysses. She has not finished for quarantine and is

152
00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:47,280
Speaker 1: subject to all the rigors of the sanitary laws. Since

153
00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:50,800
Speaker 1: my embarkation, I am myself considered as one infected with

154
00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:53,880
Speaker 1: the plague. This letter will be taken up with pincers

155
00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:55,959
Speaker 1: and put into a tin box, and it will come

156
00:08:56,000 --> 00:09:00,480
Speaker 1: to you stabbed, sprinkled, with vinegar and fumigated. I left

157
00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:04,400
Speaker 1: Venice at seven in the morning. The Admiralty gondola came

158
00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:06,680
Speaker 1: to my hotel to fetch me. The captain of the

159
00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:10,560
Speaker 1: port had kindly caused such necessaries as I should want

160
00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:13,840
Speaker 1: for the voyage to be purchased for me. I proceeded

161
00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:16,839
Speaker 1: to the Lazaretto, a short league from Venice, then went

162
00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:19,480
Speaker 1: on board the ship. The Austrian flag was hoisted on

163
00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:22,199
Speaker 1: my approach. I was received by the captain, the mate

164
00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:25,000
Speaker 1: and the crew. So at least in this instance, it

165
00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:27,560
Speaker 1: seems like the quarantine was simply a matter of course.

166
00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:31,320
Speaker 1: It was not a scenario of torture or even seemingly fear.

167
00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:34,320
Speaker 1: It was just waiting out the days required to determine

168
00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:37,640
Speaker 1: that no disease outbreak was coming or going before he

169
00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,920
Speaker 1: could just move on, because he basically just kept in

170
00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:46,319
Speaker 1: his journal his discussion of his days waiting there at Pavilia,

171
00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:48,880
Speaker 1: and coming up, we are going to talk about the

172
00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:52,600
Speaker 1: historical affliction that is most commonly referenced when it comes

173
00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:55,680
Speaker 1: to Pavilia, that being bubonic plague. But before we do,

174
00:09:56,000 --> 00:10:07,480
Speaker 1: we're going to have a quick sponsor break. So while

175
00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:11,640
Speaker 1: Pavilia's use as a lazaretto went well into the nineteenth century.

176
00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,040
Speaker 1: It's the surges of bubonic plague that made the island

177
00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:18,920
Speaker 1: famous as a holding facility. So during these times, Venice,

178
00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:22,040
Speaker 1: at a heightened state of fear, would send sick people

179
00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:25,880
Speaker 1: to the island basically just to die. The bodies would

180
00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:29,480
Speaker 1: then be shoveled into mass graves and then burnt. From

181
00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,960
Speaker 1: the fourteenth to the sixteenth centuries, Venice went through almost

182
00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:36,640
Speaker 1: two dozen plague scares, so there is really no telling

183
00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:39,240
Speaker 1: how many people have been buried and or burned on

184
00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:42,839
Speaker 1: the island, just as an fi though. You might see

185
00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:47,080
Speaker 1: images of excavated plague pits with large, large numbers of

186
00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:50,760
Speaker 1: skeletal remains when you search for pictures of Pavlia online,

187
00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:54,040
Speaker 1: but those are from a different island and the Venetian

188
00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:59,200
Speaker 1: lagoon Lazaretto Vecchio. There are almost certainly plague pits still

189
00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:03,120
Speaker 1: on Pavlia. I've just never been exhumed. Yeah. I found

190
00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:05,360
Speaker 1: one thing in a note and we'll talk about it

191
00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:08,360
Speaker 1: a little bit more towards the end, where there is

192
00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:10,760
Speaker 1: allegedly a marker at one point that says do not

193
00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:15,520
Speaker 1: dig disease within or whatever. I didn't find that repeated

194
00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:21,320
Speaker 1: in places I would consider reasonable and valid sources, So

195
00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:25,520
Speaker 1: there could be, but I don't know. In nineteen twenty two,

196
00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:28,800
Speaker 1: a hospital was established on the island. This is often

197
00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:31,760
Speaker 1: reported as a mental hospital, so that's right. At this point,

198
00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:35,040
Speaker 1: this island has what you could consider a haunting trifecta

199
00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,640
Speaker 1: of a fort, plague pits and a mental hospital. But

200
00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:44,520
Speaker 1: either eventually or simultaneously, it is a little unclear. That

201
00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:48,000
Speaker 1: hospital was also used as a housing facility for Venice's

202
00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:51,840
Speaker 1: older indigent population, and some stories will say that, oh no,

203
00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:56,080
Speaker 1: it transitioned and became basically like a nursing home for

204
00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:58,920
Speaker 1: elderly people. Others will say it was always one or

205
00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:02,520
Speaker 1: the other. It's a little unclear exactly how that played out.

206
00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,720
Speaker 1: But in nineteen sixty eight, Pavilia's home for elderly homeless

207
00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:10,200
Speaker 1: people closed and the island has not been inhabited since then.

208
00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:13,600
Speaker 1: But while there haven't been people permanently living on it,

209
00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,720
Speaker 1: there have been people still using the island. There's a

210
00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:20,520
Speaker 1: small vineyard and some other agricultural projects that were put

211
00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:24,440
Speaker 1: there not long after the hospital closed. Teenagers have long

212
00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:27,480
Speaker 1: been known to visit it, as evidenced by some graffiti

213
00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,000
Speaker 1: throughout the buildings, and for a while there was a

214
00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:32,920
Speaker 1: plan to use part of the island for student housing.

215
00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:37,120
Speaker 1: That whole idea fascinates me, and that project never came

216
00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:40,000
Speaker 1: to fruition. Yeah, I think there are a lot of

217
00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:43,839
Speaker 1: moments of public works intentions in this story that don't

218
00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:48,320
Speaker 1: ever quite make it to the finish line. But over

219
00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:51,840
Speaker 1: the years, the various remaining man made structures have slowly

220
00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:57,480
Speaker 1: been reclaimed by the island's natural vegetation. Various visitors, yes,

221
00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:00,000
Speaker 1: some people do visit even though it is technically off limits,

222
00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:03,280
Speaker 1: have taken photos of Pavilia in recent years, and the

223
00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:06,679
Speaker 1: degradation of the structures make it really apparent that there

224
00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,800
Speaker 1: is likely a huge safety risk in just wandering around

225
00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:13,400
Speaker 1: in the crumbling buildings. The humidity and the seasonal weather

226
00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:17,240
Speaker 1: changes have severely damaged the roofs throughout the island. Most

227
00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:21,680
Speaker 1: of them are either partially or totally collapsed. In twenty fourteen,

228
00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:26,080
Speaker 1: the Italian government tried to leverage Pavilia's cultural popularity to

229
00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:29,439
Speaker 1: drive revenue to try to address some really deep debt.

230
00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:33,160
Speaker 1: They auctioned off a lease for the island, and the

231
00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:36,400
Speaker 1: winning bid would have the island via a lease for

232
00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,440
Speaker 1: ninety nine years. The property would remain owned by the

233
00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:42,640
Speaker 1: Italian government. This is part of a larger effort on

234
00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:45,920
Speaker 1: the part of the government to liquidate properties for redevelopment

235
00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,720
Speaker 1: for both short term and long term economic boost The

236
00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,000
Speaker 1: four other properties that were chosen were to be sold

237
00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:55,760
Speaker 1: outright rather than least, however, and the pavilion auction was

238
00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:59,080
Speaker 1: covered in a variety of news outlets under headlines like

239
00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:01,800
Speaker 1: you could own the world It's most haunted island somewhere

240
00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:04,079
Speaker 1: a little more stoic than that, but there were a

241
00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:07,800
Speaker 1: lot along those lines. But the plan sort of fell apart,

242
00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:11,640
Speaker 1: so the auction proceeded as scheduled. Basically, it wasn't an

243
00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:14,199
Speaker 1: auction like with a gavel. It was like there was

244
00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:16,920
Speaker 1: a timeline where people could put in bids, and a

245
00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:21,680
Speaker 1: businessman named Luigi Brunaro won after bidding five hundred and

246
00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:25,520
Speaker 1: thirteen thousand euros. I saw one estimate that put that

247
00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:27,800
Speaker 1: somewhere between seven hundred thousand and a quarter of a

248
00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:32,560
Speaker 1: million dollars in American money. So through a spokesperson, it

249
00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,280
Speaker 1: was announced that the purchase was made by Brunaro to

250
00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:38,280
Speaker 1: ensure that this piece of property went to an Italian

251
00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:41,560
Speaker 1: rather than a foreign developer, and that whatever project was

252
00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:44,320
Speaker 1: chosen for it was going to be designed for public use.

253
00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:48,680
Speaker 1: An activist group which was referred to as the Povalia

254
00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:52,120
Speaker 1: Association in most English language news outlets, which is really

255
00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:55,520
Speaker 1: called Pavalia Pertuti in its actual name, which means Pavalia

256
00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:58,400
Speaker 1: for everyone, tried to raise funds to purchase the island

257
00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:00,960
Speaker 1: and make it a historic property. They did make an offer,

258
00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:04,120
Speaker 1: but it was much much lower than this winning bid.

259
00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:07,200
Speaker 1: It was one hundred and sixty thousand euros that came

260
00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:11,160
Speaker 1: from four three hundred and twenty nine donors. Once Brunaro's

261
00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:15,600
Speaker 1: bid was in the Pavlia Association insisted that the Italian

262
00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:18,040
Speaker 1: state agency that was handling the auction and the sale

263
00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:23,080
Speaker 1: not accept this offer. Brunaro's plan was eventually rejected by

264
00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:25,800
Speaker 1: the Agenzia del de Magnio on the grounds that what

265
00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:28,760
Speaker 1: he had in mind was incongruous with the restoration needs

266
00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:31,840
Speaker 1: of the island. At the time of the determination that

267
00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:35,600
Speaker 1: the original bidder's plan wasn't workable, Venice was also in

268
00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:38,120
Speaker 1: the midst of a scandal related to bribes that was

269
00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:42,520
Speaker 1: impacting a lot of city officials in actuality that bid

270
00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:44,560
Speaker 1: was really too low to meet the needs of the

271
00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:48,720
Speaker 1: state in terms of denting their debt. Brunaro initially intended

272
00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:51,720
Speaker 1: to pursue this matter through legal channels, thinking that his

273
00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,200
Speaker 1: offer should have been accepted under the terms of the auction,

274
00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:57,960
Speaker 1: but then he decided to run for mayor of Venice

275
00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,360
Speaker 1: on a conservative platform and he won, and when he

276
00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,920
Speaker 1: started his campaign he renounced any interest in Pavlia to

277
00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:08,040
Speaker 1: avoid any conflicts of interest, and since that time, Pavilia

278
00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:11,240
Speaker 1: Pertuti has continued to work on developing a proposal for

279
00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:14,880
Speaker 1: the island that will retain its historical identity and make

280
00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:18,440
Speaker 1: two thirds of the island public recreational space, rather than

281
00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:21,880
Speaker 1: allowing it to become a luxury tourist destination, which has

282
00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:23,840
Speaker 1: happened to pretty much all the other little islands that

283
00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:27,520
Speaker 1: were sold off. Yeah, it's not surprising at all that

284
00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,040
Speaker 1: an island with so many tragic historical events is rumored

285
00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:34,160
Speaker 1: to be haunted. I mean, like colleague said earlier, it's

286
00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:37,520
Speaker 1: got the whole trifecta of hauntings, and because of the

287
00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:41,560
Speaker 1: lack of documentation and excavation, there's just a big gap

288
00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:45,280
Speaker 1: in knowledge about a lot of different aspects of Pavilia's history,

289
00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:48,160
Speaker 1: and that means that people have filled in these gaps

290
00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,960
Speaker 1: with fantastic tales, and we're going to go through just

291
00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,400
Speaker 1: a few of them. So the soil, some people claim

292
00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:58,080
Speaker 1: is fifty percent human ash, because according to rumor, more

293
00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:00,880
Speaker 1: than one hundred thousand bodies are bare, and this is

294
00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:05,040
Speaker 1: again a pretty small space. We have no idea really

295
00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:07,560
Speaker 1: how many plague victims or other people have been laid

296
00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,680
Speaker 1: to rest on the island. Recent statements by the group

297
00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:12,960
Speaker 1: working to make public spaces on the island say that

298
00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,560
Speaker 1: those numbers are very inflated in all likelihood. But as

299
00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:19,359
Speaker 1: a counter there have been those mass graves found on

300
00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:24,000
Speaker 1: Lazaretto Vecchio nearby, so it does not seem that unlikely

301
00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:28,520
Speaker 1: that Pavilia has a similar situation. Rumors persist that local

302
00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:32,320
Speaker 1: fissures are so terrified of accidentally netting human remains that

303
00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,280
Speaker 1: they won't go anywhere near the island, and some versions

304
00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:37,520
Speaker 1: of this particular part of the story indicate that the

305
00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:42,040
Speaker 1: main concern is accidentally disturbing an ancestor. But this story

306
00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,240
Speaker 1: is just simply not true. Modern photos show active fishing

307
00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:47,879
Speaker 1: nets in place around the island, and there are a

308
00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:50,560
Speaker 1: couple of different angles to the haunting stories that are

309
00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:54,880
Speaker 1: associated with this Venice Lagoon island. The most standard slash

310
00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:58,679
Speaker 1: obvious version is simply that all those plague victims ferried

311
00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:02,120
Speaker 1: to the island to die never found peace in the afterlife,

312
00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,720
Speaker 1: and so their spirits are trapped on Pavilia. There have

313
00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:08,680
Speaker 1: also been accounts that claim to have seen plague doctors

314
00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:12,439
Speaker 1: with those unique and distinctive masks wandering the island in

315
00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,480
Speaker 1: spectral form A lot of times. That plague doctor image,

316
00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:17,720
Speaker 1: which is very creepy and sort of beautiful if you're

317
00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:21,679
Speaker 1: into gothicky things, is very much associated with Pavilia. A

318
00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:25,639
Speaker 1: more layered version claims that when the mental hospital was built,

319
00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:28,719
Speaker 1: the patients were haunted by the plague ghosts who were

320
00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:31,280
Speaker 1: already on the island, and then as patients at the

321
00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:34,600
Speaker 1: hospital died, they just joined the ghosts that were already there.

322
00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:37,840
Speaker 1: And we are going to talk about the darkest and

323
00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:40,800
Speaker 1: most grizzly of the haunting legends about Pavilia in just

324
00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:44,199
Speaker 1: a moment, So if you are a little bit easily spooked,

325
00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:46,120
Speaker 1: or maybe if you have a little ler listener, this

326
00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:48,240
Speaker 1: is a good time to just preview this last section

327
00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:50,760
Speaker 1: if you're concerned. But before we do it, we're going

328
00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:52,679
Speaker 1: to hear from one of our sponsors that keeps his

329
00:18:52,720 --> 00:19:04,439
Speaker 1: show going. The most gruesome of the haunting legends on

330
00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,440
Speaker 1: Pavilion is related to the mental hospital that we mentioned.

331
00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:10,600
Speaker 1: So the story goes that one of the doctors there

332
00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:14,240
Speaker 1: at the hospital was just incredibly cruel, so much so

333
00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:18,879
Speaker 1: that he began conducting experiments on the patients. So stories

334
00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:21,640
Speaker 1: of crude lobotomies, that phrase comes up over and over,

335
00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:25,880
Speaker 1: patients being chained up or tortured, a variety of other

336
00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:29,119
Speaker 1: horrors all enter the story, and they reach varying degrees

337
00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:33,080
Speaker 1: of cringe worthy depending on the source that you're looking at. Eventually,

338
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,320
Speaker 1: the doctor in this scenario is said to have been

339
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:40,679
Speaker 1: driven to kill himself, either because he realized the horror

340
00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:42,600
Speaker 1: of what he was doing and was guilty about it,

341
00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:45,160
Speaker 1: or because he was haunted by the dead of the island.

342
00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:47,520
Speaker 1: And in this story he jumped from the bell tower.

343
00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:51,560
Speaker 1: There are variations about whether he just fell or whether

344
00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:55,879
Speaker 1: he was pushed by mysterious forces as well, And in

345
00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,199
Speaker 1: some versions I found this and I was sort of

346
00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,679
Speaker 1: delighted the fall did not kill him, but instead he

347
00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:07,159
Speaker 1: was engulfed by some sort of other worldly missed presumably spirits. Uh.

348
00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:10,439
Speaker 1: These stories often end with the spookiest of lines. But

349
00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:14,879
Speaker 1: his body was never found, suggesting sort of obliquely that

350
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:17,760
Speaker 1: he could somehow still be wandering around out there. But

351
00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:20,800
Speaker 1: the boring reality is that this entire story of a

352
00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:26,040
Speaker 1: doctor who was incredibly cruel and unkind and was driven

353
00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:30,760
Speaker 1: mad appears to have been completely fabricated. There is no

354
00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:33,360
Speaker 1: record of such a person or event, which is why

355
00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:37,240
Speaker 1: nobody has ever found a body. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's

356
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:43,760
Speaker 1: very trophy, it's very yea yeah. A big part of

357
00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:46,679
Speaker 1: this whole haunted label that's been put on Pavelia seems

358
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:50,119
Speaker 1: to have come from the TV show Ghost Adventures. In

359
00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:52,560
Speaker 1: two thousand and nine, the series had an episode about

360
00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:55,959
Speaker 1: Pavlia in which one of the hosts claimed to have

361
00:20:56,000 --> 00:21:00,000
Speaker 1: been temporarily possessed during the filming, and the show described

362
00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,119
Speaker 1: Pavilia is the world's most haunted island, and the stories

363
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:07,440
Speaker 1: have only gained momentum since then. Yeah, you really do notice,

364
00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:11,080
Speaker 1: like there's not a lot of write ups that you

365
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,440
Speaker 1: can find before that about it being haunted. I'm sure

366
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:18,600
Speaker 1: any place that you know has been abandoned. Those local

367
00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:21,120
Speaker 1: stories come up about it, and sometimes they get used

368
00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:23,720
Speaker 1: to try to keep children in line, et cetera. But

369
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:28,240
Speaker 1: in terms of like the online content about it and

370
00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:31,399
Speaker 1: any sort of like write ups, they're not really about

371
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:34,119
Speaker 1: it being haunted until after this, and then they just

372
00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:37,360
Speaker 1: go bananas and they're everywhere you can find haunting stories.

373
00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,800
Speaker 1: But there also has been a growing movement to give

374
00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:44,760
Speaker 1: Pavilia a place in Venice's history without all of those

375
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:48,800
Speaker 1: paranormal and spooky rumors. So for many locals, even though

376
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,520
Speaker 1: the island has officially been off limits to visitors, it

377
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,200
Speaker 1: was part of their youth. Many of them grew up

378
00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:56,960
Speaker 1: going to the island to fish, or explore with friends

379
00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:59,600
Speaker 1: or get into a bit of teenage mischief away from

380
00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:03,119
Speaker 1: adult In addition to wanting Pavilia to be spared the

381
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,880
Speaker 1: fate of the other Lagoon islands, which most of them

382
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,199
Speaker 1: have had hotels built on them. They tend to be

383
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:11,919
Speaker 1: very big, luxurious hotels. These Italians want to put to

384
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,480
Speaker 1: rest the ghost stories that have really sensationalized the identity

385
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,159
Speaker 1: of the island on the global stage. In some cases,

386
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,800
Speaker 1: this seems like it might be muddling the history even

387
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:23,800
Speaker 1: farther though. For example, there have been claims that the

388
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:26,720
Speaker 1: hospital on the island was never a mental hospital, but

389
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,280
Speaker 1: there is at least one sign that's been photographed there

390
00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:36,280
Speaker 1: in recent years that reads Psychiatric department and Italian. Yeah,

391
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 1: so that kind of fuels the idea that it was

392
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,520
Speaker 1: a mental hospital, but it also really does not help

393
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:44,440
Speaker 1: the case of people going no, no, no, nothing weird

394
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,880
Speaker 1: happened here. It's kind of like you got to acknowledge

395
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:51,160
Speaker 1: what was real in order to soothe the more sensationalized

396
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:55,119
Speaker 1: discussion about it. And of course, there are loads of

397
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:59,120
Speaker 1: places to find references to Pavilia in modern fiction, which

398
00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:03,120
Speaker 1: in many cases are kind of adding to that haunted mystique.

399
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,480
Speaker 1: A place that appears to be based on Pavilia is

400
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,160
Speaker 1: actually in the first chapter of the graphic novel Sandman

401
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,880
Speaker 1: and This Endless Nights by Neil Gaiman, and Pavilia also

402
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,720
Speaker 1: appears in other graphic novels as well. It's referenced periodically

403
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,280
Speaker 1: in various fictional TV shows, and it is currently the

404
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,120
Speaker 1: setting of an Italian film that is in development titled

405
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 1: The Plague Doctor. And in non fictional art, there's a

406
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:29,040
Speaker 1: drawing of Pavilia by Jakomogardi in the Metropolitan Museum of

407
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:33,280
Speaker 1: Arts collection. This image is labeled the Island of Pavilia

408
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,600
Speaker 1: with British naval officers embarking, and it was drawn sometime

409
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,240
Speaker 1: in the late eighteenth or early nineteenth century. It features

410
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,439
Speaker 1: a scene that looks full of life and very active.

411
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,000
Speaker 1: There's not a ghost in sight. And we'll put a

412
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 1: link to it in the show notes. Yeah, that's in

413
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:48,639
Speaker 1: there online archives, so you can look at it and

414
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,600
Speaker 1: see that it just looks like any drawing you would

415
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,399
Speaker 1: see of a busy island with a military personnel coming

416
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 1: and going on. It not spooky at all. Yeah, you

417
00:23:58,160 --> 00:23:59,680
Speaker 1: just went to the MET. I was going to ask

418
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 1: if that it was. What inspired is that? I do

419
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,200
Speaker 1: not see it at the MET. If I had, that

420
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,120
Speaker 1: would have been a whole other thing. I did get

421
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,159
Speaker 1: another idea for a different show at the MET, but

422
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 1: you'll have to wait for that one. Yeah, we'll talk

423
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,600
Speaker 1: about that then. But yeah, so that is Pavilia, an

424
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 1: island that it is fun to think about being haunted,

425
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 1: but I feel like the reality is probably more mundane.

426
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 1: That's usually my go to. There was one discussion that

427
00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:29,120
Speaker 1: I stumbled across online. They're like we went and we recorded,

428
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:31,400
Speaker 1: and there were all these noises of something and bumping,

429
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,159
Speaker 1: and in my head, I'm like, those buildings are falling

430
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,119
Speaker 1: apart before our eyes. Like, yes, I believe there was

431
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,919
Speaker 1: something at bumping. Yeah, probably roof tiles falling off. I know,

432
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 1: I'm very skeptical. Well, I stayed in a cabin one time,

433
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:49,640
Speaker 1: many years ago, and I was staying there two nights

434
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 1: a week for several weeks in a row. And something

435
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 1: about this old that there was like a newly built

436
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 1: on addition, which was where I was staying, and then

437
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,399
Speaker 1: a very very old part, and the old part just

438
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,639
Speaker 1: gave me the creeps real bad the whole time I

439
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,200
Speaker 1: was there. And one night I heard this like creepy

440
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 1: thumping sound that was kind of muffled, like weird footsteps,

441
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 1: and it scared me so bad. And then I got

442
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 1: up in the morning to get in my car and leave,

443
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:21,680
Speaker 1: and I heard the noise again, and I whipped around

444
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 1: and it was apples falling out of the apple tree. Yeah. Yeah, Unfortunately,

445
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 1: like gravity will give you some good ghost noises sometimes,

446
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,119
Speaker 1: uh yeah, I mean I love to think about a

447
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,119
Speaker 1: haunted place Heaven knows. The Haunted Mansion is my favorite place,

448
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,639
Speaker 1: but uh yeah, usually it's It's a pretty Monday and explanation.

449
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for joining us on this Saturday. Since

450
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 1: this episode is out of the archive, if you heard

451
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,120
Speaker 1: an email address or a Facebook RL or something similar

452
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 1: over the course of the show, that could be obsolete now.

453
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 1: Our current email address is history at iHeartRadio dot com.

454
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,880
Speaker 1: You can find us all over social media at missed Inhistory,

455
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 1: and you can subscribe to our show on Apple podcasts,

456
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,920
Speaker 1: Google podcasts, the iHeartRadio app, and wherever else you listen

457
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 1: to podcasts. Stuff you Missed in History Class is a

458
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the

459
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

460
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 1: favorite shows.