WEBVTT - From the Vault: Fire From the Rocks, Part 2 0:00:06.080 --> 0:00:07.920 Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My 0:00:08.000 --> 0:00:09.280 name is Robert Lamb. 0:00:09.119 --> 0:00:11.640 And I'm Joe McCormick. And Rob and I are out 0:00:11.680 --> 0:00:14.040 this week, so we are bringing you some episodes from 0:00:14.080 --> 0:00:17.240 the vault. This is part two of our series Fire 0:00:17.400 --> 0:00:20.720 from the Rocks. This episode originally aired April twenty eighth, 0:00:20.960 --> 0:00:23.560 twenty twenty two. Let's jump into the fire. 0:00:26.760 --> 0:00:30.520 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:36.600 --> 0:00:39.000 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:39.800 is Robert. 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:42.000 Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:46.519 two of our series on naturally fueled flames. Now, in 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:49.559 the last episode, Rob, you opened with a question that 0:00:49.600 --> 0:00:52.600 we never fully got to the bottom of. The question 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:57.720 was what is the oldest continuously burning fire on Earth? 0:00:58.600 --> 0:01:01.240 And or you may have phrased it a little bit differently. 0:01:01.400 --> 0:01:03.440 That was one question. I guess another one would be like, 0:01:03.480 --> 0:01:06.880 what's the longest a single fire with a single common 0:01:06.920 --> 0:01:08.120 origin has ever burned? 0:01:08.720 --> 0:01:11.240 Right? Yeah, but essentially getting down to the same question. 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:14.680 Yeah, yeah, I guess the last one is really unknowable. 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:18.760 The first, what is the oldest continuous fire still burning today? 0:01:19.680 --> 0:01:22.520 Is I don't know maybe still difficult to know, but 0:01:22.600 --> 0:01:25.160 easier than the other one. So I don't know if 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:27.840 this question can be answered definitively, but we did at 0:01:27.880 --> 0:01:32.280 least establish that all of the oldest eternal flames maintained 0:01:32.319 --> 0:01:35.839 by humans at various temples and memorials and so forth 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:39.720 around the world are minuscule in longevity compared to some 0:01:39.959 --> 0:01:44.160 sites of naturally fueled burning, places where some chunk of 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:49.200 the earth itself is continuously on fire or smoldering at 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:52.480 the place where it meets oxygen. And one example we 0:01:52.560 --> 0:01:56.120 looked at in the last episode is a very strange 0:01:56.160 --> 0:02:00.960 and beautiful place in the Northwest Territories of Canada called 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:05.520 the Smoking Hills, where eroding coastal hills and cliff sides 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:10.000 burn by themselves as a result of an exothermic chemical 0:02:10.040 --> 0:02:15.200 reaction that happens when pyrite rich mudstones exposed to the air, 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:18.520 so erosion happens, part of the cliff comes away, and 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:21.800 some of this mudstone that has fine grain pyrite in 0:02:21.840 --> 0:02:26.560 it oxidizes, It heats up, and then some combustible elements 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:29.760 that are within the mudstone sort of smolder or catch fire, 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:34.000 and that just creates a self sustaining, self igniting burn 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:37.000 that can go on for a long long time. All 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:40.080 evidence points to the conclusion that the Smoking Hills have 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:44.400 been burning for hundreds or even thousands of years. So 0:02:44.639 --> 0:02:46.560 there might be a question about whether you'd want to 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:49.799 call this technically an example of fire or not. I mean, 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:53.200 it is smoldering rather, You're not usually seeing like big 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:56.720 sort of dancing flames coming off of it. But it's 0:02:56.760 --> 0:02:59.560 smoking and burning for hundreds or thousands of years. It 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:02.600 certainly is a very long burn. But is it the 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:06.480 longest Well, I think the answer is probably not. Again, 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:11.799 this question is hard to answer conclusively, but one site 0:03:11.880 --> 0:03:14.800 I have seen proposed as the holder of the title 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:17.960 of the longest burning fire on Earth is a place 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:23.239 in Australia known as the Burning Mountain. The Burning Mountain 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:28.200 is technically known as Mount Wingin spelled Wingin like wing 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:32.880 in its WinGen, which is a name allegedly derived from 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:36.400 a word used by the native Wannerua people meaning fire. 0:03:37.320 --> 0:03:40.920 The Burning Mountain is located in the Upper Hunter Valley 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:44.119 of New South Wales what's today about three hundred kilometers 0:03:44.200 --> 0:03:48.000 north of Sydney, and the earliest written records of the 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:51.840 mountain trace back to stories published in the Sydney newspapers 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:55.160 in eighteen twenty eight, though the site had been used 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:58.920 and known by the Wannerua going back much longer. To 0:03:58.960 --> 0:04:01.400 get a feel for the stint of this site, I 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:03.480 was looking around for photos and videos and I found 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:06.240 a really cool video somebody uploaded to YouTube of aerial 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:08.920 drone footage, So you can look that up if you want. 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:12.839 But if you are peering down at the mountain from 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:16.400 the air, what you will see is a sort of 0:04:16.560 --> 0:04:20.680 smooth crest of a mountain peak where a section that 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:24.160 looks to me to be about I'm not so good 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:27.839 at estimating area by site, but it looks like maybe 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:30.120 half the size of a soccer field something like that. 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:35.400 It's been scorched clean, so all of the ground around it. 0:04:35.480 --> 0:04:37.719 This is not a bare rock mountaintop. This is a 0:04:37.760 --> 0:04:41.120 fully forested and grass covered mountain. So all of the 0:04:41.120 --> 0:04:46.120 ground around this burned area is populated with trees and grasses. 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:49.960 But within the burned zone there is only bare earth, 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:55.040 soil and gravel, either bleached white like ash or burned 0:04:55.160 --> 0:04:58.599 red like brick. And near the edges of the burn 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:02.640 field there are these pale skeletons of dead trees, some 0:05:02.800 --> 0:05:05.720 laying flat. I guess maybe those are the older ones 0:05:05.760 --> 0:05:08.760 that have fallen down and some still standing. The ones 0:05:08.800 --> 0:05:11.120 that are still upright seem to be the ones that 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:13.240 are a little bit farther away from the center of 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:16.599 the burned region, and all around the area, even in 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:20.360 sections that are now covered in grass and vegetation, presumably 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:25.000 covered in it once again, there are noticeable cracks and 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:28.120 fissures in the earth, like you might see opening up 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:31.000 during an earthquake scene in a disaster movie. 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:33.359 Yeah, I would say this, this footage is definitely worth 0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:36.880 seeking out because when you hear burning mountain, and even 0:05:36.920 --> 0:05:40.359 with that description, you still might be imagining some sort 0:05:40.360 --> 0:05:44.880 of mor door esque, very volcanic vision of what we're 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:48.720 talking about here, and the reality is in many ways 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:54.000 more subtle than that extreme vision, but also inherently, you know, 0:05:54.080 --> 0:05:58.360 weird when compared to most other environments you're going to encounter. 0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:01.080 Yeah, totally, And I think think there are indications there 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:04.279 may have been times, even in fairly recent history, where 0:06:04.360 --> 0:06:08.120 it looked scarier than it does now, though it certainly 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:12.000 does look very strange. One of the earliest written accounts 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:15.920 that's been widely cited and republished. Was an investigation and 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:20.680 field report called Burning Mountain of Australia by the Reverend 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:25.080 Charles Wilton, published in eighteen twenty nine. I dug up 0:06:25.080 --> 0:06:27.880 this article and I wanted to read and mention a 0:06:27.880 --> 0:06:30.760 few sections from it because it was interesting. Wilton begins 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:33.279 by acknowledging that he's waiting into a kind of ongoing 0:06:33.320 --> 0:06:38.200 controversy and would have to contradict previous reports, including the 0:06:38.520 --> 0:06:42.680 earlier reports that Mount WinGen was a volcano with a 0:06:42.800 --> 0:06:47.880 crater or caldera. Now Wilton's investigation revealed that the mountain 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:50.680 was probably not a volcano and certainly did not have 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:54.920 a mouth or crater. And he writes as follows, that 0:06:55.040 --> 0:06:58.880 portion of the mountain Wingin where the fire is now burning, 0:06:58.960 --> 0:07:03.040 and which is a comp packed sandstone rock, comprehends parts 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:06.320 of two declivities of one and the same mountain. The 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:09.120 progress of the fire has of late been down the 0:07:09.200 --> 0:07:12.760 northern and highest elevation, and it is now ascending with 0:07:12.880 --> 0:07:17.240 great fury the opposite and southern imminence from the situation 0:07:17.440 --> 0:07:20.240 of the fire having been in a hollow between two 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:24.640 ridges of the same mountain. Mister Mackie, referring to somebody 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:28.119 who gave an earlier report, was probably induced to give 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:31.800 to the clefts in the mountain the appellation of a crater. 0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:36.440 The fact is, the rock, as the subterraneous fire increases, 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:41.560 is rent into several concave chasms of various widths. I 0:07:41.640 --> 0:07:46.080 particularly examined the widest of these. The rock, a solid 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:50.360 mass of sandstone, was torn asunder about two feet in width, 0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:54.400 leaving its upper and southerly side exposed to view the 0:07:54.400 --> 0:07:57.600 parts so torn asunder, having slipped as it were, down 0:07:58.000 --> 0:08:01.840 and sunk into a hollow, the forming the convex surface 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:04.960 of the heated rock. I looked down this chasm to 0:08:05.000 --> 0:08:08.080 the depth of about fifteen feet. The sides of the 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:10.680 rock were of a white heat, like that of a 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:14.920 lime kiln, while sulfurous and steamy vapors arose from a 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:18.960 depth below, like blasts from the forge of Vulcan himself. 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:21.720 I stood on that portion of the rock which had 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:25.080 been cleft from the part above, and on hurling stones 0:08:25.120 --> 0:08:27.880 down into the chasm. The noise they made in their 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:30.960 fall seemed to die away in a vast abyss beneath 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:33.520 my feet. Oh wow, so I love the part where 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:37.880 he starts chucking rocks into the chasms in the earth. So, okay, 0:08:38.000 --> 0:08:41.040 he has established this is probably not a volcano. There 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:45.160 is no crater, no caldera. Instead, there is a burned 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:49.040 area on the surface of the mountain producing sulfurous fumes. 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:52.560 And then there are these cracks or chasms in the earth, 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:55.840 and the fire seems to be burning down in the 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:57.520 deep of these cracks. 0:08:58.000 --> 0:09:00.280 Now in comparing it to the Forge of Vulcan though, 0:09:00.559 --> 0:09:02.160 this comes back to something we touched on in the 0:09:02.200 --> 0:09:05.760 last episode that when people encounter these they have no 0:09:05.880 --> 0:09:09.319 choice in many cases but to compare them to human 0:09:09.400 --> 0:09:11.560 fire technology on one level or another. 0:09:11.840 --> 0:09:15.720 Yeah, especially industry, right, Like both of the earliest written 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:19.920 accounts of the smoking hills in the Northwest Territories compared 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:22.959 them to compared them to human industry, one to a 0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:28.360 chemical factory, the other to a brick manufacturing location. And 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:32.040 that many of the oral traditions of the inuvialuate people 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:34.240 who said that these were the fires coming off of 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:36.839 the hills were the cooking fires or smoke from the 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:40.520 fires of the little people or the invisible people who 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:44.480 lived inside the mountains. There after they'd been driven away 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:48.800 from human companionship. So coming back to Reverend Wilton's account, 0:09:48.840 --> 0:09:50.959 he goes on to write that there are a bunch 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:54.680 of these chasms. They're of varying width, and they're constantly 0:09:54.720 --> 0:09:59.240 belching out smoke and sulfurous vapor. And the chasms are 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:04.560 also quote beautified with efflorescent crystal of sulfur, varying in 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:09.320 color from the deepest red orange occasioned by a ferruginous mixture. 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:12.560 I think that means containing iron or iron oxide to 0:10:12.640 --> 0:10:17.360 the palest straw color where alum predominated. And he said 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:20.400 he could not spend much time near these clefts because 0:10:20.400 --> 0:10:22.440 the ground was too hot to stand on, and the 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:26.520 vapors were not quote most grateful to the lungs. 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:28.000 Very polite. 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:32.360 Yeah, And he makes a bunch more descriptive observations. He 0:10:32.400 --> 0:10:36.680 says that he did not observe any lava or trachite there, 0:10:36.760 --> 0:10:39.280 and these would be rocks that would be signs of 0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:43.800 volcanic activity, so he seems to be accumulating evidence against 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:46.440 the interpretation of this mountain as any kind of volcano. 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:50.319 He also says that he didn't see any coal at 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:52.959 the Burning Mountain, though he notes that he found coal 0:10:53.000 --> 0:10:57.400 in many places nearby, So this region of the country 0:10:57.480 --> 0:11:01.120 seems to be coal rich, which is important. We'll come 0:11:01.160 --> 0:11:03.839 back to it. And as one weird aside, he's like, Oh, 0:11:03.840 --> 0:11:06.600 by the way, right on the other side of the 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:09.680 burning mountain, there's a spring that's great to drink from, 0:11:09.800 --> 0:11:12.880 nice cool water, especially after you've been breathing smoke from 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:15.480 the fumes from the chasms. You go and get yourself 0:11:15.520 --> 0:11:17.680 some of the water from the spring. It will quinch 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:22.000 thee folks. It is not a good idea to drink 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:26.120 untested or untreated spring water. I can have stuff in it. 0:11:26.120 --> 0:11:29.440 It's not good for you, though. I honestly, I don't 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:31.840 know if that's more or less likely if you're getting 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:34.559 your spring water from a mountain that's on fire. 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:39.480 Yeah, because I can imagine the water potentially tasting strongly 0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:43.640 of sulfur or something. But I don't know. Maybe it's 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:47.079 just a wonderful spring that was quite refreshing. 0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:51.280 Now. As a general comment on his observations, Wilton writes, quote, 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:54.040 I have compared the phenomenon presented by this mountain with 0:11:54.080 --> 0:11:58.400 written descriptions of volcanic action and subterraneous fire in other 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:02.640 portions of the globe and discover no exact similarity between them. 0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:06.120 The Burning Mountain of Australia may I think be pronounced 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:10.200 as unique one other example of nature sports of her 0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:13.640 total disregard in this country of those laws which the 0:12:13.640 --> 0:12:19.000 philosophers of the old world have since assigned her. I 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:22.080 don't know about that, Wilton. This is certainly not a 0:12:22.200 --> 0:12:24.640 unique phenomenon. We can come back to that in a minute. 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:27.200 But Betty is correct, you know, it depends on what 0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:30.920 he's looking to, I guess in history books and other accounts, 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:36.040 because there can be, you know, obviously big differences between 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:40.800 what one could roughly classify as fire erupting from the 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:43.400 ground or burning earth in one part of the world 0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:47.400 and something that fits the same description elsewhere in the world. 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:50.520 And we'll get to some examples of that in a bit, right. 0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:53.960 So, in the year since, study on the Burning Mountain 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:56.920 is continued, and it is clear that it is in 0:12:56.960 --> 0:13:00.920 fact a coal seam fire. So you can imagine there 0:13:00.920 --> 0:13:04.800 are masses of coal inside the mountains, sometimes you know, 0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:08.680 ribbons of coal running through the rocks, and at some 0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:13.360 point in history that coal must have been exposed to 0:13:13.480 --> 0:13:17.040 the air to some extent and set on fire and 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:21.400 it has been slowly burning or smoldering ever since. Now, 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:24.120 how is it first ignited? Ultimately, we have no way 0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:28.080 of knowing that, but hypotheses include lightning strikes that would 0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:31.400 make sense. So lightning strikes exposed coal seam that sets 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:34.199 it ablaze and it just continues throughout the years after that. 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:38.200 It could have been a natural brush fire. Brush fire 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:41.040 gets close and does the same thing. There are some 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:44.600 theories that it could be a kind of spontaneous spontaneous 0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:48.480 ignition of exposed coal, because when coal is exposed to 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:51.880 air and gets really hot, maybe baking under the sun, 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:55.280 it can start burning on its own. Or there could 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:59.679 be some kind of chemical reaction, maybe involving sulfur like 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:02.800 we like we observed in the Smoking Hills the oxidation 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:05.680 that kicks off that burning process in Canada. 0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:09.720 And then, of course, obviously there's the other possibility, which 0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:12.559 I think Smoky Bear would definitely point out to us, 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:15.720 that there's always the chance that human beings have a 0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:21.440 hand in setting such things ablaze. Possible, yes, either by 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:23.560 accident or intentionally. 0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:26.560 Yeah, And so one of the articles I was reading 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:28.960 mentioned the possibility because I think there are some early 0:14:29.080 --> 0:14:33.400 reports that make it, that make the burning Mountain sound 0:14:33.600 --> 0:14:37.600 more hellish and stupendous than it is even today. I 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:41.640 mean today, you don't see flames anywhere. You just see 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:44.280 and smell the smoke, and you see the scorched earth 0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:47.960 on the surface and these chasms leading down below. So 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:50.960 something's happening deep down in there, fires in the deep, 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:54.080 but you're not seeing tongues of flame erupt from the earth. 0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:57.680 I think some early reports did say that they observed 0:14:57.760 --> 0:14:59.960 like lights and stuff like that, which may have led 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:02.200 to the initial reports that this was some kind of 0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:06.640 volcano if they were seeing actual like glowing flames or 0:15:07.080 --> 0:15:09.640 something like that coming out of the mountain, which could 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:12.200 have been caused by if there was a section of 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:15.000 the coal seam, it was just closer to the surface, right, 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:18.080 It's closer to the surface, so more oxygen's getting to it. 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:20.800 It's getting really hot, it's producing these flames, and they're 0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:23.160 within you know, a distance from the surface that can 0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:24.520 be seen with the naked eye. 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:28.280 Yeah, because we are dealing with the situation where you know, 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:32.000 geologic processes need to be considered, and also where a 0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:35.600 situation where fuel is being consumed and so a certain 0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:38.000 amount of change is going to take place there. Like 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:41.600 even in the Wilton quote that you read here, like 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:46.160 he talks about the great fury that is observable here, 0:15:46.200 --> 0:15:49.160 and perhaps this is just you know, his his description 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:53.320 being you know, colorful and enthusiastic. But you know that 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:57.440 doesn't necessarily match up with say, you know, these modern 0:15:57.560 --> 0:16:01.080 drone images in the modern Tren footage that we were 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:02.120 talking about earlier. 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:05.320 Right, So the surface appearance of a coal seam fire 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:08.560 like this could vary a lot over the ages as 0:16:08.560 --> 0:16:11.360 it continues to burn. I think one of the biggest 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:14.440 variables just being like how close is the coal to 0:16:14.640 --> 0:16:17.680 the surface. Now, coming back to the question of how 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:20.800 long the fire has been burning and how we could 0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:24.560 estimate this as the oldest continuous fire on Earth. It 0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:28.000 appears to be burning underground at a depth of roughly 0:16:28.120 --> 0:16:31.480 thirty meters below the surface. So while it has an 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:34.720 enormous quantity of fuel that it can access in the 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:39.080 coal seam that feeds it, it's actually burning incredibly slowly. 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:42.520 And I'm pretty sure that the main reason for this 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:45.720 is that it's so deep that it has very little 0:16:45.760 --> 0:16:49.560 access to oxygen. So, for a mundane analogy, if you 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:52.640 ever have experience working a grill, Think about getting a 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:55.240 fire going, and maybe you want this fire and the 0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:58.640 grill to burn low and slow instead of hot and fast. 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:01.800 What would you do there? You manipulate the vents, right. 0:17:01.840 --> 0:17:05.600 You squeeze them down to only the barest crack of 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:08.640 an opening, so that the fire has very little access 0:17:08.680 --> 0:17:11.800 to oxygen. You can't close the vents completely, of course, 0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:14.359 because then the fire will just go out there's no oxygen. 0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:17.560 But if you keep just a little trickle of oxygen 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:20.520 going in, the fire will burn slowly at a lower 0:17:20.520 --> 0:17:23.560 temperature and last for a longer time without extinguishing its 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:27.879 fuel source. So I think that's probably what's going on 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:30.639 in this case as well. There's a bunch of coal 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:33.520 down there, but it's burning through the coal very slowly. 0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:36.879 It's smoldering over the years because it's deep and the 0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:39.679 oxygen not a whole lot of oxygen gets to it 0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:42.880 at once. So scientists have actually been able to estimate 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:46.280 the average rate at which the fire spreads within the 0:17:46.280 --> 0:17:50.560 burning mountain, and a common estimate I've seen is that 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:54.160 it appears to be going roughly one meter per year. 0:17:55.040 --> 0:17:58.359 And because we can track the historical movement of the 0:17:58.400 --> 0:18:02.600 burned area through geological markers, we can actually estimate the 0:18:02.640 --> 0:18:05.720 age of the fire, as the authors mention in a 0:18:06.440 --> 0:18:10.600 paper called Thermal Infrared Imagery of the Burning Mountain coal 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:15.159 Fire published in Remote Sensing Equipment by CD Elliott and 0:18:15.280 --> 0:18:18.840 Adrian W. Fleming in nineteen seventy four. And so the 0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:22.640 authors of this paper right quote, baked sediments and slag 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:25.359 produced by the burning mountain coal fire have been traced 0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:28.960 over a distance of six kilometers to the northeast of 0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:32.879 the present chimney. The burning mountain coal fire itself is 0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:36.399 of considerable antiquity. If it's assumed that the fire is 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:40.720 burnt continuously and migrated steadily south at the present mean 0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:43.000 rate of movement, and again this is estimated to be 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:46.720 roughly one meter per year, it would have taken approximately 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:50.359 six thousand years to cover the distance indicated at the 0:18:50.440 --> 0:18:53.760 surface by its effects, though they acknowledge the fire may 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:56.480 in fact have been burning for a much longer period. 0:18:57.040 --> 0:18:58.760 But it's kind of nice that that's some nice even 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:00.720 math to round it out, right. So if it's gone 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:03.560 about six kilometers and it's going about one meter per year, 0:19:04.280 --> 0:19:06.800 it seems to have been traveling for at least around 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:10.040 six thousand years. And I don't know how credible these 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:12.720 next claims are because I don't know the methodology behind them, 0:19:12.720 --> 0:19:15.640 but I've at least seen it stated in some other 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:18.600 articles that the fire could be much older, maybe more 0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:20.600 than one hundred thousand years old, but I don't know 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:23.000 why anybody would say that. So, as far as I 0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:26.240 can tell, even if only the low end estimate of 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:29.240 six thousand years is true, that would make the Burning 0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:32.280 Mountain the longest burning fire on planet Earth. 0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:36.120 Yeah. I mean that dwarfs anything we've discussed thus far, 0:19:36.720 --> 0:19:38.520 or we'll discuss after this. 0:19:39.040 --> 0:19:42.159 I was reading about the site on the National Parks 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:47.439 Australia page and they actually summarized a Wannaroua story about 0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:51.239 the origin of the mountain, which was that there was 0:19:51.640 --> 0:19:54.679 a woman who was waiting for her husband to return 0:19:54.720 --> 0:19:58.240 from battle, and she was sitting upon the mountain and 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:01.280 her husband did not return. I guess he was killed 0:20:01.320 --> 0:20:04.240 in battle, and when he didn't come back, she was 0:20:04.480 --> 0:20:08.000 so distraught that she cried out to the sky god 0:20:08.040 --> 0:20:12.199 beyond me, to kill her. And the god did not 0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:15.919 kill her. Instead, he turned her into stone, and so 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:19.719 the tears she wept, became fire and set the mountain 0:20:19.760 --> 0:20:20.840 itself on fire. 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:26.760 Oh wow. Now this is a site that the people 0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:30.320 can go and see. You can be looking it up 0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:32.959 on the website here, but you can go to Burning 0:20:33.000 --> 0:20:36.000 Mountain Nature Reserve and there's a what a one to 0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:38.480 two hour hike you can take and you can go 0:20:38.480 --> 0:20:41.880 to this observation platform that's also visible in the drone 0:20:41.920 --> 0:20:44.359 footage that we were looking at. So I know we 0:20:44.400 --> 0:20:46.800 have a number of listeners out there in Australia. So 0:20:46.840 --> 0:20:49.800 if anyone out there has been to this site and 0:20:49.880 --> 0:20:52.600 has some first hand experience they would like to share, 0:20:52.840 --> 0:20:53.960 we'd love to hear about it. 0:20:54.119 --> 0:20:56.119 Yeah, totally. If you've been there right in, let us 0:20:56.160 --> 0:20:56.720 know what it's like. 0:20:57.040 --> 0:20:59.439 Yeah. The website also points out please note remember to 0:20:59.440 --> 0:21:01.960 take her by no if you want to birdwatch, because 0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:05.000 serious bird watchers are like spurning mountain. No no, no, 0:21:05.640 --> 0:21:10.440 are those birds? 0:21:14.760 --> 0:21:19.720 Okay? But so this is one type of naturally fueled fire, right. 0:21:19.760 --> 0:21:22.440 This is a coal seam fire, and there are other 0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:24.919 fires like it, though none that we know of that 0:21:24.960 --> 0:21:27.200 are as old as this one. Some of the other 0:21:27.280 --> 0:21:30.760 major ones actually have clear human origins, like there are 0:21:30.800 --> 0:21:34.600 some famous ones in the coal mining regions of the 0:21:34.720 --> 0:21:38.639 United States, like the famous Centralia fire in Pennsylvania. There 0:21:38.640 --> 0:21:40.879 are also, I know, a lot of coal seam fires 0:21:40.880 --> 0:21:45.080 throughout China where places that have where coal has been mined, 0:21:45.200 --> 0:21:46.919 have accidentally been set alight. 0:21:47.480 --> 0:21:51.320 How long has the Springfield tire fire supposed to have 0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:51.960 been going on? 0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:52.040 On? 0:21:52.080 --> 0:21:57.560 The simp sells, we wouldn't have our tire fire, hm, 0:21:58.080 --> 0:21:59.720 I don't know how long is How many years is 0:21:59.720 --> 0:22:04.080 the sim since been on? Oh wow, seventy four years 0:22:04.080 --> 0:22:04.720 at this point. 0:22:05.880 --> 0:22:06.040 Now. 0:22:06.080 --> 0:22:09.320 Coal seam fires have all kinds of interesting characteristics and 0:22:09.359 --> 0:22:11.840 also that they can be incredibly troublesome because of course 0:22:11.880 --> 0:22:15.399 they're just sitting there belching smoke into the atmosphere without 0:22:15.440 --> 0:22:17.840 even being of use. I mean, it's not even like 0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:21.880 a coal power plant that is belching this carbon into 0:22:21.880 --> 0:22:24.360 the atmosphere and polluting the air, but at least you're 0:22:24.359 --> 0:22:26.280 getting power out of it. This is just doing that 0:22:26.440 --> 0:22:29.680 and nothing's coming from it. It's just burning, and it's 0:22:29.760 --> 0:22:32.480 in many cases hard or even impossible to put these out. 0:22:32.520 --> 0:22:35.719 I know there have been various schemes involving dumping like 0:22:35.760 --> 0:22:38.480 liquid nitrogen and stuff in and some of these have 0:22:38.600 --> 0:22:42.000 just proven pretty much impossible for people to extinguish. 0:22:42.200 --> 0:22:44.600 Yeah, though it is interesting how it is kind of 0:22:44.640 --> 0:22:50.399 the naturally occurring equivalent of human coal industry. You know, 0:22:50.440 --> 0:22:53.920 I like it because of it's coal. It's burning. It's 0:22:53.960 --> 0:22:58.560 just not doing anything for humans. So a coal, of course, 0:22:58.640 --> 0:23:02.400 is a fossil fuel formed from ancient organic matter converted 0:23:02.400 --> 0:23:04.960 through heat and pressure. And like we've been saying, coal 0:23:05.000 --> 0:23:07.680 seams are just blanket like coal deposits in the rock, 0:23:07.800 --> 0:23:10.000 and when exposed in an outcrop or even in an 0:23:10.080 --> 0:23:12.840 underground environment, these seams can and will burn. 0:23:13.160 --> 0:23:17.080 Yeah, if oxygen can get to the coal, that's dangerous, right, 0:23:17.520 --> 0:23:19.600 But of course this is not the only natural fossil 0:23:19.640 --> 0:23:23.040 fuel that can be set alight and lead to a 0:23:23.080 --> 0:23:27.880 sort of persistent, ongoing fire that stretches beyond human control. 0:23:28.160 --> 0:23:31.560 That's right. One of the big ones here is a 0:23:31.720 --> 0:23:34.879 natural gas fueled fire, and this is exactly what it 0:23:34.920 --> 0:23:37.879 sounds like. Natural gas is, of course, also a fossil 0:23:37.920 --> 0:23:41.440 fuel formed underground due to high temperatures and high compression 0:23:41.560 --> 0:23:46.960 of ancient organic matter into flammable thermogenic methane as opposed 0:23:47.000 --> 0:23:50.760 to biogenic methane, which is produced by organisms, deposits of 0:23:50.840 --> 0:23:55.919 natural gas occurrent smaller amounts at shallower depths near oil deposits, 0:23:56.160 --> 0:24:00.240 and in deeper deposits of mostly just natural gas. There 0:24:00.240 --> 0:24:02.840 are several different classifications that we can work with here, 0:24:03.080 --> 0:24:04.920 and I'm not going to go into detail on these, 0:24:04.960 --> 0:24:08.880 but there's conventional gas, there's biogas, deep natural gas, shale 0:24:09.320 --> 0:24:15.400 tight gas, coalbad methane, submarine methane, hydrate gas, and geopressurized 0:24:15.440 --> 0:24:19.440 zone gas. So the basics though, are that if conditions 0:24:19.480 --> 0:24:22.720 are right, natural gas forms within the Earth over geologic time, 0:24:22.760 --> 0:24:26.280 and if conditions are also right, that gas can leak 0:24:26.280 --> 0:24:29.879 to the surface without human industry playing a hand in 0:24:29.920 --> 0:24:34.160 any of it. And if that natural leakage of gas 0:24:34.440 --> 0:24:38.560 should encounter a spark a flame, well then you have 0:24:38.640 --> 0:24:42.800 yourself potentially a jet of fire emerging from the earth. 0:24:43.160 --> 0:24:45.200 Right the earth itself can sort of have a pilot 0:24:45.240 --> 0:24:48.280 light going. It's just there is a continuous release of 0:24:48.359 --> 0:24:51.440 natural gas, which is flammable, and if the flame gets going, 0:24:51.520 --> 0:24:54.479 the heat is there, the fuel is continuously supplied as 0:24:54.480 --> 0:24:56.919 it leaks out of the ground, and the oxygen is 0:24:56.920 --> 0:24:59.480 there in the atmosphere because it's meeting the surface so 0:24:59.600 --> 0:25:01.399 you can just have a flame that comes out of 0:25:01.440 --> 0:25:04.000 the ground and just burns and burns and burns and 0:25:04.040 --> 0:25:07.200 burns as long as the as long as the gas 0:25:07.240 --> 0:25:08.520 is continually escaping. 0:25:08.960 --> 0:25:12.280 Yeah, and very shortly here we'll have I think a 0:25:12.400 --> 0:25:18.280 great example of this. But another possibility worth mentioning here 0:25:18.480 --> 0:25:21.080 is that of peat fires. So PETE is found in 0:25:21.119 --> 0:25:24.919 shallow wetlands such as swamps and bogs, large deposits of 0:25:24.920 --> 0:25:29.600 plant matter have decomposed under anaerobic conditions. PETE has a 0:25:29.680 --> 0:25:34.480 number of different uses for in human technology, including gardening, filtration, 0:25:34.720 --> 0:25:38.520 chemical absorption techniques. But it's high in carbon, so if 0:25:38.520 --> 0:25:41.200 it drives out enough, it can catch fire. 0:25:41.560 --> 0:25:44.920 And I've read stories about these peat fires that get 0:25:44.960 --> 0:25:47.760 out of hand can also be incredibly difficult to deal with. 0:25:47.880 --> 0:25:50.159 But it is interesting because you don't necessarily think of 0:25:50.200 --> 0:25:53.399 something in the bog being flammable like this. 0:25:53.880 --> 0:25:55.480 You don't. I don't know why don't you. 0:25:57.119 --> 0:25:59.359 I mean you do think of things like swamp gas. 0:25:59.440 --> 0:26:02.200 And you know, we've talked in the past till the wisp, 0:26:02.359 --> 0:26:04.720 will of the wisp. Yeah, but you can also imagine 0:26:04.760 --> 0:26:06.960 yourself in this environment being like it is so damp here, 0:26:07.320 --> 0:26:10.439 it is so wet. How could anything possibly burn on 0:26:10.480 --> 0:26:13.040 its own without humans playing a direct hand in it? Right? 0:26:13.480 --> 0:26:18.639 All right? So coming back to natural gas powered naturally 0:26:19.160 --> 0:26:22.560 fueled flames, I want to come to some what I 0:26:22.560 --> 0:26:25.720 thought were just fascinating examples that I don't think I 0:26:25.760 --> 0:26:28.400 was really familiar with any of these, because they concern 0:26:28.920 --> 0:26:35.199 what is now Azerbaijan on the Abseron Peninsula. This was 0:26:35.440 --> 0:26:39.159 a region that was under the domain of Shivan in 0:26:39.240 --> 0:26:42.920 ancient times, but came under the domain of Imperial Russia, 0:26:43.080 --> 0:26:47.359 the Ottoman Empire, Iran, and Soviet Russia during the twentieth century. 0:26:48.960 --> 0:26:51.280 And this is an area where there is a lot 0:26:52.000 --> 0:26:57.400 of petroleum and also various examples of natural gas emerging 0:26:57.440 --> 0:27:01.520 from the ground that I thought we might discuss here, Okay, 0:27:02.080 --> 0:27:05.000 all right, So it takes us to what is now 0:27:05.040 --> 0:27:09.080 the capital city of Azerbaijan, Baku. It's a host to 0:27:09.200 --> 0:27:13.680 numerous sites of interest, including the Maiden Tower, a twelfth 0:27:13.680 --> 0:27:18.080 century construction with a very intriguing design. Its origins are 0:27:18.080 --> 0:27:23.280 often explained in a tail concerning fire. In particular, there 0:27:23.280 --> 0:27:27.479 are a few different Zoroastrian legends about this structure, and 0:27:27.560 --> 0:27:29.600 I included a picture here for you, Joe, and I 0:27:29.720 --> 0:27:34.040 encourage listeners to look up images of this structure because 0:27:34.040 --> 0:27:37.240 it's it's quite picturesque. I don't think I've seen anything 0:27:37.400 --> 0:27:41.800 quite like it's it's rather different from other twelfth century 0:27:41.800 --> 0:27:46.920 constructions and certainly from other archaeological traditions in other parts 0:27:46.960 --> 0:27:47.439 of the world. 0:27:47.840 --> 0:27:51.000 Yeah. Yeah, And this is also interesting because, of course 0:27:51.040 --> 0:27:56.879 fire has very important religious significance within Zoroastrianism. I've sometimes 0:27:56.960 --> 0:28:02.560 heard Zoroastrianism, I think incorrectly described as a fire worshiping religion, 0:28:02.600 --> 0:28:04.560 and I don't think that's quite right, because fire is 0:28:04.600 --> 0:28:08.199 not like a god or the god of Zoroastrianism, like 0:28:08.240 --> 0:28:11.639 the god of Zoroastrianism is the Ahura Mazda, you know, 0:28:11.880 --> 0:28:16.800 the god of good and light. But fire is an 0:28:16.800 --> 0:28:20.640 important religious symbol within their rightship. 0:28:21.040 --> 0:28:23.840 You do see these ancient accounts by foreigners, generally who 0:28:23.920 --> 0:28:25.480 come into this region and they're like, oh, yeah, they 0:28:25.480 --> 0:28:27.879 worship fire here. But yeah, I think you could very 0:28:27.880 --> 0:28:30.880 easily compare that to accounts of say Europeans going into 0:28:31.080 --> 0:28:32.639 many other parts of the world and saying, hey, they 0:28:32.640 --> 0:28:35.840 worship demons here, they worship devils, they're not Christian at all. 0:28:36.119 --> 0:28:40.240 So you know, it's it's ultimately I think more complicated 0:28:40.680 --> 0:28:43.080 than that, But there is this element of fire that 0:28:43.120 --> 0:28:47.040 does pop up in some of the religious traditions in 0:28:47.080 --> 0:28:47.520 this area. 0:28:47.880 --> 0:28:50.760 I think maybe this might be a very rough analogy, 0:28:50.800 --> 0:28:52.760 but it would be kind of like mistakenly saying that 0:28:52.880 --> 0:28:55.520 Christians worship a cross made of wood. 0:28:55.880 --> 0:28:58.160 Right, Yeah, yeah, I think I think that that gets 0:28:58.160 --> 0:28:58.880 at it. Yeah. 0:28:58.920 --> 0:29:00.800 Oh, but but I I'm I want to know this legend. 0:29:00.840 --> 0:29:04.840 You mentioned a Zoroastrian legend concerning the Maiden Tower, this 0:29:05.320 --> 0:29:10.520 intriguing and beautiful building and its origins concerning fire. 0:29:11.200 --> 0:29:14.240 Yes, and I was I was reading. Central was essentially 0:29:14.400 --> 0:29:19.200 a post that was put together by Professor Mahir Khalifa 0:29:19.640 --> 0:29:25.160 Zade and Layla Khalifa Zade, and they point out that 0:29:25.200 --> 0:29:28.800 there are several different legends tie that concern fire and 0:29:28.840 --> 0:29:33.200 concern this to this tower, the Maiden Tower. But the 0:29:33.200 --> 0:29:37.080 basic story that really captivated my attention was this idea that, Okay, 0:29:37.120 --> 0:29:40.040 you have this very brutal siege that's taking place at 0:29:40.080 --> 0:29:43.240 the city of Baku, and the people there they pray 0:29:43.960 --> 0:29:47.680 before the holy fires of the Fire Temple to Ahura 0:29:47.800 --> 0:29:51.320 Mazda to save them. Again. This is the creator deity 0:29:51.360 --> 0:29:55.160 of Zoroastrianism. And I'm going to quote this this bit, 0:29:56.560 --> 0:29:59.280 just a bit from the paper here or the post 0:29:59.360 --> 0:30:03.880 by Khalifa Zade here. Quote Finally he heard their prayers. 0:30:04.000 --> 0:30:06.160 On the next day, the people saw that a large 0:30:06.200 --> 0:30:09.280 piece of the Holy Fire was fell down to the 0:30:09.320 --> 0:30:11.960 earth from the top of the fire temple tower. A 0:30:11.960 --> 0:30:14.920 beautiful girl came up from the fire. She had long 0:30:15.080 --> 0:30:18.240 and fire colored hairs. The crowd went down on their 0:30:18.360 --> 0:30:21.280 knees and started to pray to her. And so from 0:30:21.320 --> 0:30:23.680 here basically what happens. The fire maiden says, Hey, i 0:30:23.720 --> 0:30:25.800 am sent here to protect you, but I'm going to 0:30:25.880 --> 0:30:28.080 need a sword, and I'm going to need a helmet 0:30:28.360 --> 0:30:32.080 to hide my long, beautiful hair from the enemy. The 0:30:32.200 --> 0:30:36.920 enemy cannot see my hair, so they outfit her with 0:30:37.000 --> 0:30:40.440 these items. She orders the gates thrown open, and then 0:30:40.480 --> 0:30:43.239 a great battle ensues and she engages. She winds up 0:30:43.240 --> 0:30:46.800 engaging in single combat with the enemy commander, who just 0:30:46.800 --> 0:30:49.520 assumes she's just another one of the male soldiers of 0:30:49.560 --> 0:30:54.000 the city, dressed in the helmet wielding a sword. So 0:30:54.080 --> 0:30:57.040 she ends up knocking the commander down, and then she 0:30:57.160 --> 0:30:59.400 pulls a knife and holds it to his throat, and 0:30:59.480 --> 0:31:01.400 he asked to see the face of the warrior who 0:31:01.440 --> 0:31:04.520 has bested him, so she shows him. She takes the 0:31:04.520 --> 0:31:06.800 helm off, and he's shocked to see the face of 0:31:06.840 --> 0:31:09.880 a girl and the long, beautiful, flame colored hair of 0:31:09.920 --> 0:31:13.480 a girl. And first he realizes, okay, first of all, 0:31:13.560 --> 0:31:16.680 if this is what the girls of Baku are capable of, 0:31:17.040 --> 0:31:19.480 are you know, if they're this tough, then we don't 0:31:19.480 --> 0:31:22.400 have a chance against the rest of the army. But 0:31:22.480 --> 0:31:25.400 then he also falls in love with her instantly, and 0:31:25.440 --> 0:31:28.040 then she falls in love with him, and then peace 0:31:28.160 --> 0:31:28.760 is declared. 0:31:29.160 --> 0:31:30.320 Oh didn't see that coming. 0:31:30.480 --> 0:31:32.400 Yeah, yeah, it kind of has goes in a direction 0:31:32.480 --> 0:31:35.920 I didn't. I didn't expect there, and uh, you know, 0:31:35.960 --> 0:31:38.080 I mean, who knows stories like this? You can have 0:31:38.200 --> 0:31:40.360 multiple stories, I guess, kind of merging together, and it 0:31:40.480 --> 0:31:43.840 twisting over time, and at some point someone decides what 0:31:43.880 --> 0:31:45.760 if it had a what if it had a romantic ending? 0:31:46.920 --> 0:31:52.800 And ultimately Khalifazade shares a few other versions where you know, 0:31:52.920 --> 0:31:56.400 various other things occur, and also mentions the tower might 0:31:56.520 --> 0:31:59.200 just be called the Maiden Tower because it was never 0:31:59.280 --> 0:32:01.560 conquered by the enemy. It's the ideas like this, this 0:32:01.680 --> 0:32:04.240 tower is it's a virgin tower. The enemy has never 0:32:04.280 --> 0:32:04.840 defiled it. 0:32:05.360 --> 0:32:11.800 I see. 0:32:12.800 --> 0:32:16.840 So you have this history in Baku, you know, concerning 0:32:16.920 --> 0:32:20.480 fire and uh and and you know, it's it's the 0:32:20.560 --> 0:32:22.680 character of the city seems very much associated with it. 0:32:22.720 --> 0:32:25.800 And you see that even in the city's modern wonders. 0:32:25.840 --> 0:32:28.360 There's a there there's a trio of skyscrapers. They are 0:32:28.400 --> 0:32:31.920 known as the Flame Towers, and they they're they're very 0:32:31.920 --> 0:32:33.920 beautiful in the pictures I looked at. They have this 0:32:34.040 --> 0:32:37.760 kind of curling flame shape to them, and so you know, 0:32:37.840 --> 0:32:40.440 during the day they're you know, reflective glass and steel, 0:32:41.280 --> 0:32:43.800 very much like like any other modern skyscrapers. But I've 0:32:43.800 --> 0:32:46.120 also seen images where they lighted it like the light 0:32:46.200 --> 0:32:50.760 these towers up at night with you know, swirling orange 0:32:50.800 --> 0:32:54.680 and yellow and red and and also some blue thrown 0:32:54.720 --> 0:32:56.800 in there as well that really make them look like, 0:32:57.200 --> 0:32:59.959 you know, strong depictions of flames curling up from the air. 0:33:01.240 --> 0:33:04.080 And this comes back to the idea that this is 0:33:04.080 --> 0:33:07.920 a region rich in petroleum and natural gas, and you 0:33:08.000 --> 0:33:11.760 have various sites of interest here that are associated with that, 0:33:12.200 --> 0:33:16.880 including jan Ardagh also known as the Burning Mountain, and 0:33:16.920 --> 0:33:20.640 this is where natural gas constantly seeps up through the 0:33:20.680 --> 0:33:23.200 ground and has been a flame since at least the 0:33:23.280 --> 0:33:28.400 nineteen fifties, when it may have been ignited by shepherds. 0:33:28.440 --> 0:33:32.680 So this is an example where ultimately who knows, but 0:33:32.680 --> 0:33:35.280 at least one of the stories out there is that, okay, 0:33:35.280 --> 0:33:37.200 there's gas leaking up and then some shepherds set it 0:33:37.240 --> 0:33:41.160 on fire in the fifties, and by some accounts it 0:33:41.160 --> 0:33:45.640 has been burning ever since. Flames reportedly jet about three 0:33:45.720 --> 0:33:50.520 meters or nine point eight feet into the air from 0:33:50.600 --> 0:33:53.240 this site. And I looked up images of this site, 0:33:53.280 --> 0:33:55.560 and this is another one where if you're going into 0:33:55.560 --> 0:33:58.720 this expecting something out of Mordor, you're probably going to 0:33:58.760 --> 0:34:03.080 be disappointed. It's basically this hillside and there's a there's 0:34:03.080 --> 0:34:05.520 an area where there's not any vegetation, and then there's 0:34:05.520 --> 0:34:07.720 an area that's really dark, and then here are the 0:34:07.760 --> 0:34:11.400 fires springing out of the earth. Now, this area is 0:34:11.400 --> 0:34:14.000 also known for its mud volcanoes, which are not true 0:34:14.080 --> 0:34:18.719 volcanoes as they don't produce lava instead, And I have 0:34:18.760 --> 0:34:20.800 to throw in this wonderful description that I found for 0:34:20.920 --> 0:34:24.279 mud volcanoes in general from Brewster at All in a 0:34:24.320 --> 0:34:28.880 twenty fifteen article in Geo Echo Marina. They say that 0:34:28.920 --> 0:34:35.480 these are geo exuded slurries, usually including water and gases. 0:34:36.040 --> 0:34:40.440 So they look like a like a bit like bubbling mud, 0:34:40.600 --> 0:34:43.880 like gas rising up through the mud, you know, forming 0:34:43.960 --> 0:34:46.240 these big bump bubbles. It has kind of a bog 0:34:46.280 --> 0:34:48.920 of eternal stench kind of a look to it. And 0:34:49.280 --> 0:34:51.480 you know, some of these also looks very much like 0:34:51.480 --> 0:34:53.640 an alien world, like you have this this kind of 0:34:53.640 --> 0:34:57.240 barren landscape and here's like the bubbling pool of mud 0:34:57.600 --> 0:34:58.000 years ago. 0:34:58.080 --> 0:35:00.400 I think I flagged mud volcanoes as a is a 0:35:00.400 --> 0:35:02.359 potential episode topic for us. 0:35:02.560 --> 0:35:04.319 Oh yeah, we could easily come back to it. 0:35:04.360 --> 0:35:08.080 But yeah, weird sort of gray clay puke coming up 0:35:08.120 --> 0:35:11.560 from these cracked blisters in the earth. It's pretty cool. 0:35:12.000 --> 0:35:18.880 Yeah. Now, this region of Surakzani has long been associated 0:35:18.920 --> 0:35:23.560 again often with fire worship or religious practices that concern fire, 0:35:23.680 --> 0:35:26.760 and their accounts going back apparently to the tenth century 0:35:26.800 --> 0:35:30.600 at least, But as luck would have it, we also 0:35:30.719 --> 0:35:35.480 have accounts of this region from German traveler Ingolbert Khompher, 0:35:35.880 --> 0:35:39.759 who visited here in sixteen eighty three and has some 0:35:39.840 --> 0:35:43.040 wonderful descriptions of what he saw Ingolbert Komper, of course, 0:35:43.040 --> 0:35:45.640 popped up in our Vegetable Lamb episode. 0:35:45.320 --> 0:35:47.480 Oh yeah, that's right, as one of the early voices 0:35:47.520 --> 0:35:51.200 of skepticism about this story, saying that I don't know. 0:35:51.280 --> 0:35:53.880 I traveled all over and people don't really seem to 0:35:53.920 --> 0:35:56.360 know what these stories are talking about. I do not 0:35:56.480 --> 0:36:00.000 think there is a plant that makes lamb. 0:36:00.800 --> 0:36:05.319 Yes. So the book in question is Exotic Attractions in 0:36:05.360 --> 0:36:09.359 Persia sixteen eighty four through sixteen eighty eight, and I 0:36:09.400 --> 0:36:13.280 was looking at a translation of this by Villain Floor, 0:36:14.719 --> 0:36:18.040 which you can find on an ebook or physical book 0:36:18.080 --> 0:36:20.600 out there. So I'm just going to read just a 0:36:20.680 --> 0:36:23.120 brief bit from it here where he's talking about these fires. 0:36:23.640 --> 0:36:26.480 From there, we continued our march, and after midday we 0:36:26.600 --> 0:36:29.680 came to the burning field, covered with white sand and 0:36:29.719 --> 0:36:34.800 sprinkled with ashy dust. From numerous fissures, sulfurous spouts burst 0:36:34.800 --> 0:36:39.040 from the soil, a varied and pleasant spectacle. Some fissures 0:36:39.080 --> 0:36:41.799 made a lot of noise, and with their fires and 0:36:41.840 --> 0:36:45.680 their violence, aroused a holy fear among some rare spectators. 0:36:46.239 --> 0:36:49.680 Others again emitted less strong flames, allowing everybody to come 0:36:49.760 --> 0:36:55.239 quite close. Others exhaled fumes or rather hardly visible vapors, 0:36:55.640 --> 0:37:00.080 but which reeked strongly of the spirit of naphtha. This 0:37:00.120 --> 0:37:03.239 phenomena appeared in the area of eighty eight paces in 0:37:03.320 --> 0:37:07.600 length twenty six wide. The fissures were amazingly narrow, not 0:37:07.760 --> 0:37:11.520 wider than one foot or one palm, some shorter and 0:37:11.600 --> 0:37:15.320 drawn into a semicircle, and others crooked with a long, 0:37:15.400 --> 0:37:19.640 insinuous bend, which I have shown accurately and conform to 0:37:19.800 --> 0:37:24.279 reality in the appended illustration to complete this description. The 0:37:24.400 --> 0:37:27.000 edges of these cracks and the soil itself, when you 0:37:27.080 --> 0:37:30.880 remove the dust, showed a pox marked light stone, almost 0:37:30.920 --> 0:37:34.680 like pumice stone. The matter seemed to be a conglomerate 0:37:34.719 --> 0:37:38.839 of seashells and minuscule snail shells. We came upon about 0:37:38.880 --> 0:37:41.720 a dozen people who stayed there, who, around a fire, 0:37:42.000 --> 0:37:44.680 were engaged in all kinds of activities. In fact, some 0:37:44.880 --> 0:37:48.680 having placed copper or earthenware pots on a not too 0:37:48.680 --> 0:37:51.960 blazing crack, prepared the meals for the inhabitants of the 0:37:51.960 --> 0:37:56.960 neighboring village of Sorgani at Swaga, thus named because of 0:37:57.000 --> 0:38:00.560 the fire. Others having brought stones from all aroun, and 0:38:00.600 --> 0:38:03.680 having heaped them together, were burning a lime and once, 0:38:03.800 --> 0:38:06.440 when ready, they made a pile to transport it in 0:38:06.520 --> 0:38:11.319 small vessels. Two foreigners, Indian fire worshippers descended from the 0:38:11.320 --> 0:38:15.480 ancient Persians, were quietly seated around it enclosure they had constructed. 0:38:15.920 --> 0:38:19.400 They watched and venerated the spouting flame, offering prayers to 0:38:19.440 --> 0:38:22.799 the eternal God. One of the lime burners had approached us, 0:38:22.840 --> 0:38:26.560 proposing to show us something particularly extraordinary. If for this surface, 0:38:26.600 --> 0:38:29.880 we offered him some money. When we had counted it, 0:38:30.120 --> 0:38:32.640 he placed small cotton balls that he tore from his 0:38:32.760 --> 0:38:35.839 dress on a fire shovel and set fire to them. 0:38:36.040 --> 0:38:38.319 Then he very quickly took the flame obtained in that 0:38:38.360 --> 0:38:41.560 fashion above a fissure at some distance which had neither 0:38:41.640 --> 0:38:45.360 fire nor flame. Its vapor was everywhere invisible until it 0:38:45.360 --> 0:38:48.520 produced a very high flame. This was a beautiful and 0:38:48.640 --> 0:38:51.920 unexpected moment. But the flame disappeared again after a while. 0:38:52.440 --> 0:38:54.880 Such is the first appearance of the wonders of nature, 0:38:54.920 --> 0:38:57.279 well known in this part of the peninsula, but not 0:38:57.440 --> 0:39:02.239 in the same place, and eternally remained in people memory. Wow, yeah, 0:39:02.360 --> 0:39:04.280 so yeah, I love everything about that. Account. 0:39:04.280 --> 0:39:06.239 That's oh yeah, yeah, it's wonderful. 0:39:06.280 --> 0:39:06.440 Though. 0:39:06.480 --> 0:39:12.319 I have to notice Camphor mentions cotton, thinking back to 0:39:12.400 --> 0:39:15.000 the vegetable lamb thing, So he knew about he knew 0:39:15.000 --> 0:39:18.160 about cotton at least I'm assuming this translation is accurate 0:39:18.200 --> 0:39:21.440 and that is what he meant instead of using the 0:39:21.480 --> 0:39:22.760 word for wool or something. 0:39:23.080 --> 0:39:26.040 That's a good point. That's a good point. So again, 0:39:26.040 --> 0:39:31.200 that is from Exotic Attractions in Persia by Engelbert Komf 0:39:32.160 --> 0:39:34.400 and you can pick up a copy of that that 0:39:34.480 --> 0:39:37.520 comes out from that's out from Mage Publishers, and there 0:39:37.560 --> 0:39:41.160 is a kindle edition. But there's another side of interest 0:39:41.320 --> 0:39:45.040 related to all of this, and that is the Atashka 0:39:45.080 --> 0:39:48.279 Fire Temple or the Fire Temple of Baku. This is 0:39:48.320 --> 0:39:52.640 a square building with pentagonal walls and a domed roof 0:39:53.160 --> 0:39:57.480 constructed atop a natural gas leak that provides fuel for 0:39:57.560 --> 0:40:00.480 a large flame in the center of the temple, as 0:40:00.520 --> 0:40:03.440 well as for four smaller flames on each of the 0:40:03.480 --> 0:40:07.680 buildings on the roof. Basically, they're four small, almost like 0:40:07.719 --> 0:40:11.000 little towers, one at each corner of the of the roof, 0:40:11.200 --> 0:40:13.359 and those are flaming as well. 0:40:13.680 --> 0:40:16.760 Oh wow, So this is a temple a religious building 0:40:16.960 --> 0:40:20.080 built around a natural gas leak. 0:40:20.719 --> 0:40:23.400 Yeah. So I love this because in that comfort account 0:40:23.440 --> 0:40:27.080 we had an example of people cooking over one of 0:40:27.120 --> 0:40:31.000 these naturally occurring spouts of gas and spouts of flame. 0:40:31.880 --> 0:40:36.239 And now we have an actual structure that is not 0:40:36.600 --> 0:40:40.640 only like built around this, but seems to be manipulating 0:40:40.680 --> 0:40:44.040 the flow of gas so that you can have additional 0:40:44.280 --> 0:40:47.640 fires control fires burning at the top of the temple. 0:40:47.960 --> 0:40:48.480 Very cool. 0:40:48.800 --> 0:40:52.040 Yeah, yeah. And you know there's some old woodcuts of this, 0:40:52.200 --> 0:40:55.279 and also you know you can find modern photos of 0:40:55.320 --> 0:40:59.600 it as well. It's been a place for Hindu, Sikh, 0:40:59.640 --> 0:41:04.040 and so Astrian worship, and it seems to be some 0:41:04.200 --> 0:41:07.799 debate on who originally worshiped here. And part of this 0:41:07.880 --> 0:41:11.600 may be due to what Mary Boyce described in nineteen 0:41:11.640 --> 0:41:14.960 seventy five's on the Zoroastrian Temple Cult of Fire, published 0:41:15.000 --> 0:41:18.760 in the Journal of the American Oriental Society as quote 0:41:18.840 --> 0:41:22.600 the dearth of records of Zoroastrianism at any period before 0:41:22.680 --> 0:41:26.080 the seventeenth century Ce. But Boyce points out a few 0:41:26.080 --> 0:41:29.480 different ideas about the history of these fire temples. Again 0:41:29.520 --> 0:41:33.680 in the particular mainly we're talking about in the Baku region. 0:41:34.400 --> 0:41:37.200 First of all, I see okay. Yeah, I was like, sure, 0:41:37.719 --> 0:41:39.719 we know it's older than that. Okay, I see in 0:41:39.760 --> 0:41:40.320 this region. 0:41:41.120 --> 0:41:44.360 So, first of all, the history is complex due to 0:41:44.400 --> 0:41:49.600 the existence of both Zoroastrian image cults and fire cults, 0:41:50.280 --> 0:41:52.400 and there seemed to be an offer a lot of 0:41:52.440 --> 0:41:55.840 overlap between the two. So she says that the image 0:41:55.840 --> 0:41:59.840 cults seem to have lasted from the fourth century BC 0:42:00.800 --> 0:42:05.799 until they were suppressed by an iconoclastic movement under the 0:42:05.800 --> 0:42:09.359 Sasanians or the Neo Persian Empire. And so in this 0:42:09.400 --> 0:42:12.719 we're getting back into this idea that we explored in 0:42:12.719 --> 0:42:16.960 a previous episode about the role of images in worship. Yeah, 0:42:17.440 --> 0:42:21.320 so basically, and so the cult of the fire temples 0:42:21.440 --> 0:42:25.560 may have been instituted in opposition to quote, this alien 0:42:25.680 --> 0:42:28.480 form of worship. And so I believe what she's saying 0:42:28.480 --> 0:42:33.080 here is that as the use of images were suppressed 0:42:33.200 --> 0:42:36.680 in their worship, they turned to the flame itself as 0:42:36.760 --> 0:42:39.719 a focal point of worship. And we can see that 0:42:39.760 --> 0:42:43.799 reflected in that story we were discussing earlier, praying to 0:42:44.160 --> 0:42:48.400 Aramazda by using the flame as like the focal point 0:42:48.520 --> 0:42:51.719 of the worship, right, and Boyce also points out that 0:42:51.760 --> 0:42:54.319 this would you could also link this to older traditions 0:42:54.320 --> 0:42:58.919 of the veneration of hearth fires, and it goes without 0:42:58.920 --> 0:43:00.640 saying I guess as well that this is a region 0:43:00.680 --> 0:43:04.439 with natural gas easily linked to natural flames, et cetera. 0:43:04.560 --> 0:43:08.480 So there's a local aspect of this going on. But 0:43:08.520 --> 0:43:11.480 then in general we also have these traditions of keeping 0:43:11.480 --> 0:43:15.040 the fire and to a certain extent, venerating that fire 0:43:15.080 --> 0:43:18.680 and protecting it and looking after it. She also points 0:43:18.680 --> 0:43:21.280 out that quote, no actual ruins of a fire temple 0:43:21.320 --> 0:43:25.920 have been convincingly identified from before the Parthian period, that's 0:43:25.960 --> 0:43:29.520 from two forty seven BCE to two twenty four CE. 0:43:29.960 --> 0:43:34.200 Now this is another bit that I found quite interesting. 0:43:35.320 --> 0:43:37.799 So this is a still I believe, a candidate to 0:43:37.880 --> 0:43:42.239 become a UNESCO World Heritage Site, the temple of the 0:43:42.280 --> 0:43:46.800 Flame temple here. But the temple flame, reportedly according to UNESCO, 0:43:46.920 --> 0:43:50.759 went out in eighteen eighty three due to petroleum activity 0:43:50.840 --> 0:43:55.560 in the region. So now it's lit via an artificial 0:43:55.600 --> 0:43:59.160 gas line instead of natural gas emerging from the earth. 0:43:59.440 --> 0:44:01.440 So it's in I seem to think of this, this 0:44:01.600 --> 0:44:04.960 site and this date in eighteen eighty three is kind 0:44:04.960 --> 0:44:09.080 of a key boundary point between the oil age, the 0:44:09.120 --> 0:44:12.920 age of fossil fuel, and the period preceding it, a 0:44:13.040 --> 0:44:16.759 time during which the divine fire is extinguished and that 0:44:16.920 --> 0:44:20.960 is replaced by technological mastery over fossil fuels and fire. 0:44:21.440 --> 0:44:22.640 Oh yeah, interesting. 0:44:23.000 --> 0:44:26.400 So I found all this just just ritually interesting. I 0:44:27.520 --> 0:44:30.160 have to admit I had not read much about Agerbrajan. 0:44:30.560 --> 0:44:35.680 I've never been to Arebajon, but this this is all wonderful. 0:44:35.719 --> 0:44:37.520 I absolutely love it, and I would love to hear 0:44:37.560 --> 0:44:39.920 from anyone out there listening to the show who is 0:44:39.920 --> 0:44:45.080 in Agerbrajan, or as of Agrebrajan, a heritage that, or 0:44:45.160 --> 0:44:47.759 is just traveled there and seeing these sits right in, 0:44:47.880 --> 0:44:50.880 let us know. I'd love to have you know, some 0:44:50.920 --> 0:44:53.719 more insight on all of this. All right, we're going 0:44:53.760 --> 0:44:55.560 to go ahead and close it out here, but we're 0:44:55.600 --> 0:44:58.520 going to be back, and hey, we might keep talking 0:44:58.520 --> 0:45:01.640 on this topic. The is in motion, and there's there's 0:45:01.640 --> 0:45:03.080 certainly more we could discuss here. 0:45:03.680 --> 0:45:06.920 The burning continues, the fuel has not been extinguished yet, 0:45:07.000 --> 0:45:09.080 so this may go on next week. 0:45:09.480 --> 0:45:11.799 All right. In the meantime, again, we'd love to hear 0:45:11.800 --> 0:45:15.560 from everyone out there has additional inside firsthand or otherwise 0:45:16.040 --> 0:45:20.040 on the topics we've discussed here, you know, and also 0:45:20.080 --> 0:45:23.160 anything about the previous episode or there are other episodes 0:45:23.160 --> 0:45:25.640 that have come before, potential episodes we could record in 0:45:25.680 --> 0:45:29.880 the future as a reminder. Core episodes of Stuff to 0:45:29.920 --> 0:45:32.640 Blow Your Mind air on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and the 0:45:32.680 --> 0:45:35.000 Stuff to Blow your Mind podcast feed You can get 0:45:35.000 --> 0:45:38.160 that wherever you get your podcast these days. On Mondays 0:45:38.160 --> 0:45:41.080 we do listener mail. On Wednesdays we do a short 0:45:41.120 --> 0:45:43.680 form artifact or Monster Factor. On Fridays we do Weird 0:45:43.680 --> 0:45:45.880 House Cinema. That's our time to set aside most serious 0:45:45.880 --> 0:45:47.960 concerns and just talk about a strange film. 0:45:48.280 --> 0:45:51.439 Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Seth 0:45:51.560 --> 0:45:54.160 Nicholas Johnson. 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