1 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:07,920 Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb. 3 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:11,640 Speaker 2: And I'm Joe McCormick. And Rob and I are out 4 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 2: this week, so we are bringing you some episodes from 5 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:17,240 Speaker 2: the vault. This is part two of our series Fire 6 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 2: from the Rocks. This episode originally aired April twenty eighth, 7 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 2: twenty twenty two. Let's jump into the fire. 8 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio. 9 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 10 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: is Robert. 11 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 2: Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part 12 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 2: two of our series on naturally fueled flames. Now, in 13 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,559 Speaker 2: the last episode, Rob, you opened with a question that 14 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 2: we never fully got to the bottom of. The question 15 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 2: was what is the oldest continuously burning fire on Earth? 16 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 2: And or you may have phrased it a little bit differently. 17 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 2: That was one question. I guess another one would be like, 18 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 2: what's the longest a single fire with a single common 19 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 2: origin has ever burned? 20 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: Right? Yeah, but essentially getting down to the same question. 21 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:14,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I guess the last one is really unknowable. 22 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:18,760 Speaker 2: The first, what is the oldest continuous fire still burning today? 23 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 2: Is I don't know maybe still difficult to know, but 24 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 2: easier than the other one. So I don't know if 25 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 2: this question can be answered definitively, but we did at 26 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 2: least establish that all of the oldest eternal flames maintained 27 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:35,839 Speaker 2: by humans at various temples and memorials and so forth 28 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 2: around the world are minuscule in longevity compared to some 29 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 2: sites of naturally fueled burning, places where some chunk of 30 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 2: the earth itself is continuously on fire or smoldering at 31 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 2: the place where it meets oxygen. And one example we 32 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 2: looked at in the last episode is a very strange 33 00:01:56,160 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 2: and beautiful place in the Northwest Territories of Canada called 34 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 2: the Smoking Hills, where eroding coastal hills and cliff sides 35 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 2: burn by themselves as a result of an exothermic chemical 36 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 2: reaction that happens when pyrite rich mudstones exposed to the air, 37 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 2: so erosion happens, part of the cliff comes away, and 38 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 2: some of this mudstone that has fine grain pyrite in 39 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 2: it oxidizes, It heats up, and then some combustible elements 40 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 2: that are within the mudstone sort of smolder or catch fire, 41 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 2: and that just creates a self sustaining, self igniting burn 42 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 2: that can go on for a long long time. All 43 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:40,080 Speaker 2: evidence points to the conclusion that the Smoking Hills have 44 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 2: been burning for hundreds or even thousands of years. So 45 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 2: there might be a question about whether you'd want to 46 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,799 Speaker 2: call this technically an example of fire or not. I mean, 47 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 2: it is smoldering rather, You're not usually seeing like big 48 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 2: sort of dancing flames coming off of it. But it's 49 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 2: smoking and burning for hundreds or thousands of years. It 50 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 2: certainly is a very long burn. But is it the 51 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 2: longest Well, I think the answer is probably not. Again, 52 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:11,799 Speaker 2: this question is hard to answer conclusively, but one site 53 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 2: I have seen proposed as the holder of the title 54 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 2: of the longest burning fire on Earth is a place 55 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:23,239 Speaker 2: in Australia known as the Burning Mountain. The Burning Mountain 56 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 2: is technically known as Mount Wingin spelled Wingin like wing 57 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 2: in its WinGen, which is a name allegedly derived from 58 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 2: a word used by the native Wannerua people meaning fire. 59 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 2: The Burning Mountain is located in the Upper Hunter Valley 60 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:44,119 Speaker 2: of New South Wales what's today about three hundred kilometers 61 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 2: north of Sydney, and the earliest written records of the 62 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 2: mountain trace back to stories published in the Sydney newspapers 63 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 2: in eighteen twenty eight, though the site had been used 64 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 2: and known by the Wannerua going back much longer. To 65 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 2: get a feel for the stint of this site, I 66 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 2: was looking around for photos and videos and I found 67 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 2: a really cool video somebody uploaded to YouTube of aerial 68 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 2: drone footage, So you can look that up if you want. 69 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,839 Speaker 2: But if you are peering down at the mountain from 70 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 2: the air, what you will see is a sort of 71 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 2: smooth crest of a mountain peak where a section that 72 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 2: looks to me to be about I'm not so good 73 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 2: at estimating area by site, but it looks like maybe 74 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 2: half the size of a soccer field something like that. 75 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 2: It's been scorched clean, so all of the ground around it. 76 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:37,719 Speaker 2: This is not a bare rock mountaintop. This is a 77 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 2: fully forested and grass covered mountain. So all of the 78 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 2: ground around this burned area is populated with trees and grasses. 79 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 2: But within the burned zone there is only bare earth, 80 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:55,040 Speaker 2: soil and gravel, either bleached white like ash or burned 81 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:58,599 Speaker 2: red like brick. And near the edges of the burn 82 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 2: field there are these pale skeletons of dead trees, some 83 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:05,720 Speaker 2: laying flat. I guess maybe those are the older ones 84 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 2: that have fallen down and some still standing. The ones 85 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 2: that are still upright seem to be the ones that 86 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 2: are a little bit farther away from the center of 87 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 2: the burned region, and all around the area, even in 88 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 2: sections that are now covered in grass and vegetation, presumably 89 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 2: covered in it once again, there are noticeable cracks and 90 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 2: fissures in the earth, like you might see opening up 91 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 2: during an earthquake scene in a disaster movie. 92 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:33,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say this, this footage is definitely worth 93 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: seeking out because when you hear burning mountain, and even 94 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:40,359 Speaker 1: with that description, you still might be imagining some sort 95 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: of mor door esque, very volcanic vision of what we're 96 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:48,720 Speaker 1: talking about here, and the reality is in many ways 97 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: more subtle than that extreme vision, but also inherently, you know, 98 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 1: weird when compared to most other environments you're going to encounter. 99 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, And I think think there are indications there 100 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:04,279 Speaker 2: may have been times, even in fairly recent history, where 101 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 2: it looked scarier than it does now, though it certainly 102 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 2: does look very strange. One of the earliest written accounts 103 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 2: that's been widely cited and republished. Was an investigation and 104 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 2: field report called Burning Mountain of Australia by the Reverend 105 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 2: Charles Wilton, published in eighteen twenty nine. I dug up 106 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 2: this article and I wanted to read and mention a 107 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 2: few sections from it because it was interesting. Wilton begins 108 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 2: by acknowledging that he's waiting into a kind of ongoing 109 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 2: controversy and would have to contradict previous reports, including the 110 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 2: earlier reports that Mount WinGen was a volcano with a 111 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 2: crater or caldera. Now Wilton's investigation revealed that the mountain 112 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 2: was probably not a volcano and certainly did not have 113 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 2: a mouth or crater. And he writes as follows, that 114 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 2: portion of the mountain Wingin where the fire is now burning, 115 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:03,040 Speaker 2: and which is a comp packed sandstone rock, comprehends parts 116 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 2: of two declivities of one and the same mountain. The 117 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 2: progress of the fire has of late been down the 118 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 2: northern and highest elevation, and it is now ascending with 119 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 2: great fury the opposite and southern imminence from the situation 120 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 2: of the fire having been in a hollow between two 121 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 2: ridges of the same mountain. Mister Mackie, referring to somebody 122 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:28,119 Speaker 2: who gave an earlier report, was probably induced to give 123 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 2: to the clefts in the mountain the appellation of a crater. 124 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 2: The fact is, the rock, as the subterraneous fire increases, 125 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 2: is rent into several concave chasms of various widths. I 126 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 2: particularly examined the widest of these. The rock, a solid 127 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 2: mass of sandstone, was torn asunder about two feet in width, 128 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 2: leaving its upper and southerly side exposed to view the 129 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 2: parts so torn asunder, having slipped as it were, down 130 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 2: and sunk into a hollow, the forming the convex surface 131 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 2: of the heated rock. I looked down this chasm to 132 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 2: the depth of about fifteen feet. The sides of the 133 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 2: rock were of a white heat, like that of a 134 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 2: lime kiln, while sulfurous and steamy vapors arose from a 135 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 2: depth below, like blasts from the forge of Vulcan himself. 136 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 2: I stood on that portion of the rock which had 137 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 2: been cleft from the part above, and on hurling stones 138 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 2: down into the chasm. The noise they made in their 139 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 2: fall seemed to die away in a vast abyss beneath 140 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 2: my feet. Oh wow, so I love the part where 141 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 2: he starts chucking rocks into the chasms in the earth. So, okay, 142 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 2: he has established this is probably not a volcano. There 143 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 2: is no crater, no caldera. Instead, there is a burned 144 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 2: area on the surface of the mountain producing sulfurous fumes. 145 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 2: And then there are these cracks or chasms in the earth, 146 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 2: and the fire seems to be burning down in the 147 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 2: deep of these cracks. 148 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: Now in comparing it to the Forge of Vulcan though, 149 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: this comes back to something we touched on in the 150 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: last episode that when people encounter these they have no 151 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:09,319 Speaker 1: choice in many cases but to compare them to human 152 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 1: fire technology on one level or another. 153 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, especially industry, right, Like both of the earliest written 154 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 2: accounts of the smoking hills in the Northwest Territories compared 155 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:22,959 Speaker 2: them to compared them to human industry, one to a 156 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 2: chemical factory, the other to a brick manufacturing location. And 157 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 2: that many of the oral traditions of the inuvialuate people 158 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 2: who said that these were the fires coming off of 159 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:36,839 Speaker 2: the hills were the cooking fires or smoke from the 160 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 2: fires of the little people or the invisible people who 161 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 2: lived inside the mountains. There after they'd been driven away 162 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 2: from human companionship. So coming back to Reverend Wilton's account, 163 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:50,959 Speaker 2: he goes on to write that there are a bunch 164 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:54,680 Speaker 2: of these chasms. They're of varying width, and they're constantly 165 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 2: belching out smoke and sulfurous vapor. And the chasms are 166 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 2: also quote beautified with efflorescent crystal of sulfur, varying in 167 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 2: color from the deepest red orange occasioned by a ferruginous mixture. 168 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 2: I think that means containing iron or iron oxide to 169 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 2: the palest straw color where alum predominated. And he said 170 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 2: he could not spend much time near these clefts because 171 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 2: the ground was too hot to stand on, and the 172 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 2: vapors were not quote most grateful to the lungs. 173 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 1: Very polite. 174 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, And he makes a bunch more descriptive observations. He 175 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:36,680 Speaker 2: says that he did not observe any lava or trachite there, 176 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 2: and these would be rocks that would be signs of 177 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 2: volcanic activity, so he seems to be accumulating evidence against 178 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 2: the interpretation of this mountain as any kind of volcano. 179 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:50,319 Speaker 2: He also says that he didn't see any coal at 180 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:52,959 Speaker 2: the Burning Mountain, though he notes that he found coal 181 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 2: in many places nearby, So this region of the country 182 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 2: seems to be coal rich, which is important. We'll come 183 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:03,839 Speaker 2: back to it. And as one weird aside, he's like, Oh, 184 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 2: by the way, right on the other side of the 185 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 2: burning mountain, there's a spring that's great to drink from, 186 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 2: nice cool water, especially after you've been breathing smoke from 187 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 2: the fumes from the chasms. You go and get yourself 188 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:17,680 Speaker 2: some of the water from the spring. It will quinch 189 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 2: thee folks. It is not a good idea to drink 190 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 2: untested or untreated spring water. I can have stuff in it. 191 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 2: It's not good for you, though. I honestly, I don't 192 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 2: know if that's more or less likely if you're getting 193 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:34,559 Speaker 2: your spring water from a mountain that's on fire. 194 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, because I can imagine the water potentially tasting strongly 195 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 1: of sulfur or something. But I don't know. Maybe it's 196 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:47,079 Speaker 1: just a wonderful spring that was quite refreshing. 197 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 2: Now. As a general comment on his observations, Wilton writes, quote, 198 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 2: I have compared the phenomenon presented by this mountain with 199 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 2: written descriptions of volcanic action and subterraneous fire in other 200 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 2: portions of the globe and discover no exact similarity between them. 201 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 2: The Burning Mountain of Australia may I think be pronounced 202 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 2: as unique one other example of nature sports of her 203 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 2: total disregard in this country of those laws which the 204 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 2: philosophers of the old world have since assigned her. I 205 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 2: don't know about that, Wilton. This is certainly not a 206 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 2: unique phenomenon. We can come back to that in a minute. 207 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:27,200 Speaker 1: But Betty is correct, you know, it depends on what 208 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: he's looking to, I guess in history books and other accounts, 209 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: because there can be, you know, obviously big differences between 210 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 1: what one could roughly classify as fire erupting from the 211 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 1: ground or burning earth in one part of the world 212 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 1: and something that fits the same description elsewhere in the world. 213 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: And we'll get to some examples of that in a bit, right. 214 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 2: So, in the year since, study on the Burning Mountain 215 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 2: is continued, and it is clear that it is in 216 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 2: fact a coal seam fire. So you can imagine there 217 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 2: are masses of coal inside the mountains, sometimes you know, 218 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:08,680 Speaker 2: ribbons of coal running through the rocks, and at some 219 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 2: point in history that coal must have been exposed to 220 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 2: the air to some extent and set on fire and 221 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 2: it has been slowly burning or smoldering ever since. Now, 222 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 2: how is it first ignited? Ultimately, we have no way 223 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 2: of knowing that, but hypotheses include lightning strikes that would 224 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 2: make sense. So lightning strikes exposed coal seam that sets 225 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,199 Speaker 2: it ablaze and it just continues throughout the years after that. 226 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 2: It could have been a natural brush fire. Brush fire 227 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 2: gets close and does the same thing. There are some 228 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 2: theories that it could be a kind of spontaneous spontaneous 229 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 2: ignition of exposed coal, because when coal is exposed to 230 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 2: air and gets really hot, maybe baking under the sun, 231 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 2: it can start burning on its own. Or there could 232 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:59,679 Speaker 2: be some kind of chemical reaction, maybe involving sulfur like 233 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 2: we like we observed in the Smoking Hills the oxidation 234 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:05,680 Speaker 2: that kicks off that burning process in Canada. 235 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 1: And then, of course, obviously there's the other possibility, which 236 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:12,559 Speaker 1: I think Smoky Bear would definitely point out to us, 237 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 1: that there's always the chance that human beings have a 238 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 1: hand in setting such things ablaze. Possible, yes, either by 239 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: accident or intentionally. 240 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, And so one of the articles I was reading 241 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 2: mentioned the possibility because I think there are some early 242 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 2: reports that make it, that make the burning Mountain sound 243 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 2: more hellish and stupendous than it is even today. I 244 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 2: mean today, you don't see flames anywhere. You just see 245 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 2: and smell the smoke, and you see the scorched earth 246 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 2: on the surface and these chasms leading down below. So 247 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 2: something's happening deep down in there, fires in the deep, 248 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 2: but you're not seeing tongues of flame erupt from the earth. 249 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 2: I think some early reports did say that they observed 250 00:14:57,760 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 2: like lights and stuff like that, which may have led 251 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 2: to the initial reports that this was some kind of 252 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 2: volcano if they were seeing actual like glowing flames or 253 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 2: something like that coming out of the mountain, which could 254 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 2: have been caused by if there was a section of 255 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 2: the coal seam, it was just closer to the surface, right, 256 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 2: It's closer to the surface, so more oxygen's getting to it. 257 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 2: It's getting really hot, it's producing these flames, and they're 258 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 2: within you know, a distance from the surface that can 259 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 2: be seen with the naked eye. 260 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, because we are dealing with the situation where you know, 261 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 1: geologic processes need to be considered, and also where a 262 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: situation where fuel is being consumed and so a certain 263 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: amount of change is going to take place there. Like 264 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: even in the Wilton quote that you read here, like 265 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: he talks about the great fury that is observable here, 266 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 1: and perhaps this is just you know, his his description 267 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: being you know, colorful and enthusiastic. But you know that 268 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily match up with say, you know, these modern 269 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: drone images in the modern Tren footage that we were 270 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 1: talking about earlier. 271 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 2: Right, So the surface appearance of a coal seam fire 272 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 2: like this could vary a lot over the ages as 273 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 2: it continues to burn. I think one of the biggest 274 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 2: variables just being like how close is the coal to 275 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 2: the surface. Now, coming back to the question of how 276 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 2: long the fire has been burning and how we could 277 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 2: estimate this as the oldest continuous fire on Earth. It 278 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 2: appears to be burning underground at a depth of roughly 279 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 2: thirty meters below the surface. So while it has an 280 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 2: enormous quantity of fuel that it can access in the 281 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 2: coal seam that feeds it, it's actually burning incredibly slowly. 282 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 2: And I'm pretty sure that the main reason for this 283 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 2: is that it's so deep that it has very little 284 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 2: access to oxygen. So, for a mundane analogy, if you 285 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 2: ever have experience working a grill, Think about getting a 286 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 2: fire going, and maybe you want this fire and the 287 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 2: grill to burn low and slow instead of hot and fast. 288 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 2: What would you do there? You manipulate the vents, right. 289 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 2: You squeeze them down to only the barest crack of 290 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,640 Speaker 2: an opening, so that the fire has very little access 291 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 2: to oxygen. You can't close the vents completely, of course, 292 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 2: because then the fire will just go out there's no oxygen. 293 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 2: But if you keep just a little trickle of oxygen 294 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 2: going in, the fire will burn slowly at a lower 295 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 2: temperature and last for a longer time without extinguishing its 296 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:27,879 Speaker 2: fuel source. So I think that's probably what's going on 297 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 2: in this case as well. There's a bunch of coal 298 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 2: down there, but it's burning through the coal very slowly. 299 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 2: It's smoldering over the years because it's deep and the 300 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:39,679 Speaker 2: oxygen not a whole lot of oxygen gets to it 301 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 2: at once. So scientists have actually been able to estimate 302 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 2: the average rate at which the fire spreads within the 303 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 2: burning mountain, and a common estimate I've seen is that 304 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:54,160 Speaker 2: it appears to be going roughly one meter per year. 305 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 2: And because we can track the historical movement of the 306 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 2: burned area through geological markers, we can actually estimate the 307 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 2: age of the fire, as the authors mention in a 308 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 2: paper called Thermal Infrared Imagery of the Burning Mountain coal 309 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:15,159 Speaker 2: Fire published in Remote Sensing Equipment by CD Elliott and 310 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 2: Adrian W. Fleming in nineteen seventy four. And so the 311 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:22,640 Speaker 2: authors of this paper right quote, baked sediments and slag 312 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 2: produced by the burning mountain coal fire have been traced 313 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 2: over a distance of six kilometers to the northeast of 314 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:32,879 Speaker 2: the present chimney. The burning mountain coal fire itself is 315 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,399 Speaker 2: of considerable antiquity. If it's assumed that the fire is 316 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 2: burnt continuously and migrated steadily south at the present mean 317 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 2: rate of movement, and again this is estimated to be 318 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 2: roughly one meter per year, it would have taken approximately 319 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 2: six thousand years to cover the distance indicated at the 320 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 2: surface by its effects, though they acknowledge the fire may 321 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 2: in fact have been burning for a much longer period. 322 00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 2: But it's kind of nice that that's some nice even 323 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 2: math to round it out, right. So if it's gone 324 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 2: about six kilometers and it's going about one meter per year, 325 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 2: it seems to have been traveling for at least around 326 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 2: six thousand years. And I don't know how credible these 327 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 2: next claims are because I don't know the methodology behind them, 328 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,640 Speaker 2: but I've at least seen it stated in some other 329 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 2: articles that the fire could be much older, maybe more 330 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 2: than one hundred thousand years old, but I don't know 331 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 2: why anybody would say that. So, as far as I 332 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 2: can tell, even if only the low end estimate of 333 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 2: six thousand years is true, that would make the Burning 334 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 2: Mountain the longest burning fire on planet Earth. 335 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:36,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean that dwarfs anything we've discussed thus far, 336 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: or we'll discuss after this. 337 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:42,159 Speaker 2: I was reading about the site on the National Parks 338 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:47,439 Speaker 2: Australia page and they actually summarized a Wannaroua story about 339 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:51,239 Speaker 2: the origin of the mountain, which was that there was 340 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:54,679 Speaker 2: a woman who was waiting for her husband to return 341 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 2: from battle, and she was sitting upon the mountain and 342 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 2: her husband did not return. I guess he was killed 343 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 2: in battle, and when he didn't come back, she was 344 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 2: so distraught that she cried out to the sky god 345 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:12,199 Speaker 2: beyond me, to kill her. And the god did not 346 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,919 Speaker 2: kill her. Instead, he turned her into stone, and so 347 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:19,719 Speaker 2: the tears she wept, became fire and set the mountain 348 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 2: itself on fire. 349 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 1: Oh wow. Now this is a site that the people 350 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: can go and see. You can be looking it up 351 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:32,959 Speaker 1: on the website here, but you can go to Burning 352 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 1: Mountain Nature Reserve and there's a what a one to 353 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:38,480 Speaker 1: two hour hike you can take and you can go 354 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,880 Speaker 1: to this observation platform that's also visible in the drone 355 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 1: footage that we were looking at. So I know we 356 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 1: have a number of listeners out there in Australia. So 357 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: if anyone out there has been to this site and 358 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: has some first hand experience they would like to share, 359 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 1: we'd love to hear about it. 360 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:56,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. If you've been there right in, let us 361 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 2: know what it's like. 362 00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,439 Speaker 1: Yeah. The website also points out please note remember to 363 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 1: take her by no if you want to birdwatch, because 364 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: serious bird watchers are like spurning mountain. No no, no, 365 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:10,440 Speaker 1: are those birds? 366 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 2: Okay? But so this is one type of naturally fueled fire, right. 367 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:22,440 Speaker 2: This is a coal seam fire, and there are other 368 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:24,919 Speaker 2: fires like it, though none that we know of that 369 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,200 Speaker 2: are as old as this one. Some of the other 370 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 2: major ones actually have clear human origins, like there are 371 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 2: some famous ones in the coal mining regions of the 372 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 2: United States, like the famous Centralia fire in Pennsylvania. There 373 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:40,879 Speaker 2: are also, I know, a lot of coal seam fires 374 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 2: throughout China where places that have where coal has been mined, 375 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:46,919 Speaker 2: have accidentally been set alight. 376 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 1: How long has the Springfield tire fire supposed to have 377 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 1: been going on? 378 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 3: On? 379 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 2: The simp sells, we wouldn't have our tire fire, hm, 380 00:21:58,080 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 2: I don't know how long is How many years is 381 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 2: the sim since been on? Oh wow, seventy four years 382 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 2: at this point. 383 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: Now. 384 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 2: Coal seam fires have all kinds of interesting characteristics and 385 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 2: also that they can be incredibly troublesome because of course 386 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,399 Speaker 2: they're just sitting there belching smoke into the atmosphere without 387 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 2: even being of use. I mean, it's not even like 388 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,880 Speaker 2: a coal power plant that is belching this carbon into 389 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:24,360 Speaker 2: the atmosphere and polluting the air, but at least you're 390 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 2: getting power out of it. This is just doing that 391 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 2: and nothing's coming from it. It's just burning, and it's 392 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 2: in many cases hard or even impossible to put these out. 393 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,719 Speaker 2: I know there have been various schemes involving dumping like 394 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 2: liquid nitrogen and stuff in and some of these have 395 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 2: just proven pretty much impossible for people to extinguish. 396 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, though it is interesting how it is kind of 397 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:50,399 Speaker 1: the naturally occurring equivalent of human coal industry. You know, 398 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 1: I like it because of it's coal. It's burning. It's 399 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: just not doing anything for humans. So a coal, of course, 400 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:02,400 Speaker 1: is a fossil fuel formed from ancient organic matter converted 401 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 1: through heat and pressure. And like we've been saying, coal 402 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,680 Speaker 1: seams are just blanket like coal deposits in the rock, 403 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: and when exposed in an outcrop or even in an 404 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: underground environment, these seams can and will burn. 405 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, if oxygen can get to the coal, that's dangerous, right, 406 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 2: But of course this is not the only natural fossil 407 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 2: fuel that can be set alight and lead to a 408 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:27,880 Speaker 2: sort of persistent, ongoing fire that stretches beyond human control. 409 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 1: That's right. One of the big ones here is a 410 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 1: natural gas fueled fire, and this is exactly what it 411 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,879 Speaker 1: sounds like. Natural gas is, of course, also a fossil 412 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 1: fuel formed underground due to high temperatures and high compression 413 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 1: of ancient organic matter into flammable thermogenic methane as opposed 414 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 1: to biogenic methane, which is produced by organisms, deposits of 415 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:55,919 Speaker 1: natural gas occurrent smaller amounts at shallower depths near oil deposits, 416 00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 1: and in deeper deposits of mostly just natural gas. There 417 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: are several different classifications that we can work with here, 418 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:04,920 Speaker 1: and I'm not going to go into detail on these, 419 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,880 Speaker 1: but there's conventional gas, there's biogas, deep natural gas, shale 420 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:15,400 Speaker 1: tight gas, coalbad methane, submarine methane, hydrate gas, and geopressurized 421 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:19,440 Speaker 1: zone gas. So the basics though, are that if conditions 422 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 1: are right, natural gas forms within the Earth over geologic time, 423 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: and if conditions are also right, that gas can leak 424 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,879 Speaker 1: to the surface without human industry playing a hand in 425 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:34,160 Speaker 1: any of it. And if that natural leakage of gas 426 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: should encounter a spark a flame, well then you have 427 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: yourself potentially a jet of fire emerging from the earth. 428 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:45,200 Speaker 2: Right the earth itself can sort of have a pilot 429 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 2: light going. It's just there is a continuous release of 430 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,440 Speaker 2: natural gas, which is flammable, and if the flame gets going, 431 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,479 Speaker 2: the heat is there, the fuel is continuously supplied as 432 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:56,919 Speaker 2: it leaks out of the ground, and the oxygen is 433 00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 2: there in the atmosphere because it's meeting the surface so 434 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:01,399 Speaker 2: you can just have a flame that comes out of 435 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 2: the ground and just burns and burns and burns and 436 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 2: burns as long as the as long as the gas 437 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 2: is continually escaping. 438 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, and very shortly here we'll have I think a 439 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 1: great example of this. But another possibility worth mentioning here 440 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 1: is that of peat fires. So PETE is found in 441 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,919 Speaker 1: shallow wetlands such as swamps and bogs, large deposits of 442 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 1: plant matter have decomposed under anaerobic conditions. PETE has a 443 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 1: number of different uses for in human technology, including gardening, filtration, 444 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 1: chemical absorption techniques. But it's high in carbon, so if 445 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 1: it drives out enough, it can catch fire. 446 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 2: And I've read stories about these peat fires that get 447 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 2: out of hand can also be incredibly difficult to deal with. 448 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,159 Speaker 1: But it is interesting because you don't necessarily think of 449 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,399 Speaker 1: something in the bog being flammable like this. 450 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 2: You don't. I don't know why don't you. 451 00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 1: I mean you do think of things like swamp gas. 452 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,200 Speaker 1: And you know, we've talked in the past till the wisp, 453 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 1: will of the wisp. Yeah, but you can also imagine 454 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 1: yourself in this environment being like it is so damp here, 455 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,439 Speaker 1: it is so wet. How could anything possibly burn on 456 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 1: its own without humans playing a direct hand in it? Right? 457 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:18,639 Speaker 1: All right? So coming back to natural gas powered naturally 458 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 1: fueled flames, I want to come to some what I 459 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 1: thought were just fascinating examples that I don't think I 460 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,400 Speaker 1: was really familiar with any of these, because they concern 461 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:35,199 Speaker 1: what is now Azerbaijan on the Abseron Peninsula. This was 462 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:39,159 Speaker 1: a region that was under the domain of Shivan in 463 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 1: ancient times, but came under the domain of Imperial Russia, 464 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:47,359 Speaker 1: the Ottoman Empire, Iran, and Soviet Russia during the twentieth century. 465 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 1: And this is an area where there is a lot 466 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:57,400 Speaker 1: of petroleum and also various examples of natural gas emerging 467 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 1: from the ground that I thought we might discuss here, Okay, 468 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 1: all right, So it takes us to what is now 469 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 1: the capital city of Azerbaijan, Baku. It's a host to 470 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:13,680 Speaker 1: numerous sites of interest, including the Maiden Tower, a twelfth 471 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 1: century construction with a very intriguing design. Its origins are 472 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 1: often explained in a tail concerning fire. In particular, there 473 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:27,479 Speaker 1: are a few different Zoroastrian legends about this structure, and 474 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 1: I included a picture here for you, Joe, and I 475 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 1: encourage listeners to look up images of this structure because 476 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 1: it's it's quite picturesque. I don't think I've seen anything 477 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 1: quite like it's it's rather different from other twelfth century 478 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:46,920 Speaker 1: constructions and certainly from other archaeological traditions in other parts 479 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:47,439 Speaker 1: of the world. 480 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And this is also interesting because, of course 481 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:56,879 Speaker 2: fire has very important religious significance within Zoroastrianism. I've sometimes 482 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 2: heard Zoroastrianism, I think incorrectly described as a fire worshiping religion, 483 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 2: and I don't think that's quite right, because fire is 484 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,199 Speaker 2: not like a god or the god of Zoroastrianism, like 485 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 2: the god of Zoroastrianism is the Ahura Mazda, you know, 486 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 2: the god of good and light. But fire is an 487 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,640 Speaker 2: important religious symbol within their rightship. 488 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: You do see these ancient accounts by foreigners, generally who 489 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 1: come into this region and they're like, oh, yeah, they 490 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:27,879 Speaker 1: worship fire here. But yeah, I think you could very 491 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,880 Speaker 1: easily compare that to accounts of say Europeans going into 492 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:32,639 Speaker 1: many other parts of the world and saying, hey, they 493 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 1: worship demons here, they worship devils, they're not Christian at all. 494 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 1: So you know, it's it's ultimately I think more complicated 495 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 1: than that, But there is this element of fire that 496 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 1: does pop up in some of the religious traditions in 497 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 1: this area. 498 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 2: I think maybe this might be a very rough analogy, 499 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 2: but it would be kind of like mistakenly saying that 500 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 2: Christians worship a cross made of wood. 501 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, yeah, I think I think that that gets 502 00:28:58,160 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 1: at it. Yeah. 503 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 2: Oh, but but I I'm I want to know this legend. 504 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 2: You mentioned a Zoroastrian legend concerning the Maiden Tower, this 505 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 2: intriguing and beautiful building and its origins concerning fire. 506 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 1: Yes, and I was I was reading. Central was essentially 507 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 1: a post that was put together by Professor Mahir Khalifa 508 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 1: Zade and Layla Khalifa Zade, and they point out that 509 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: there are several different legends tie that concern fire and 510 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 1: concern this to this tower, the Maiden Tower. But the 511 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 1: basic story that really captivated my attention was this idea that, Okay, 512 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 1: you have this very brutal siege that's taking place at 513 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 1: the city of Baku, and the people there they pray 514 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: before the holy fires of the Fire Temple to Ahura 515 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 1: Mazda to save them. Again. This is the creator deity 516 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 1: of Zoroastrianism. And I'm going to quote this this bit, 517 00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: just a bit from the paper here or the post 518 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 1: by Khalifa Zade here. Quote Finally he heard their prayers. 519 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 1: On the next day, the people saw that a large 520 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 1: piece of the Holy Fire was fell down to the 521 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:11,960 Speaker 1: earth from the top of the fire temple tower. A 522 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 1: beautiful girl came up from the fire. She had long 523 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 1: and fire colored hairs. The crowd went down on their 524 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: knees and started to pray to her. And so from 525 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: here basically what happens. The fire maiden says, Hey, i 526 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 1: am sent here to protect you, but I'm going to 527 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 1: need a sword, and I'm going to need a helmet 528 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 1: to hide my long, beautiful hair from the enemy. The 529 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 1: enemy cannot see my hair, so they outfit her with 530 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,440 Speaker 1: these items. She orders the gates thrown open, and then 531 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,239 Speaker 1: a great battle ensues and she engages. She winds up 532 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 1: engaging in single combat with the enemy commander, who just 533 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 1: assumes she's just another one of the male soldiers of 534 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 1: the city, dressed in the helmet wielding a sword. So 535 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 1: she ends up knocking the commander down, and then she 536 00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 1: pulls a knife and holds it to his throat, and 537 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:01,400 Speaker 1: he asked to see the face of the warrior who 538 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 1: has bested him, so she shows him. She takes the 539 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 1: helm off, and he's shocked to see the face of 540 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 1: a girl and the long, beautiful, flame colored hair of 541 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 1: a girl. And first he realizes, okay, first of all, 542 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 1: if this is what the girls of Baku are capable of, 543 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 1: are you know, if they're this tough, then we don't 544 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 1: have a chance against the rest of the army. But 545 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 1: then he also falls in love with her instantly, and 546 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 1: then she falls in love with him, and then peace 547 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 1: is declared. 548 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 2: Oh didn't see that coming. 549 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it kind of has goes in a direction 550 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 1: I didn't. I didn't expect there, and uh, you know, 551 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 1: I mean, who knows stories like this? You can have 552 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 1: multiple stories, I guess, kind of merging together, and it 553 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 1: twisting over time, and at some point someone decides what 554 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 1: if it had a what if it had a romantic ending? 555 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 1: And ultimately Khalifazade shares a few other versions where you know, 556 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 1: various other things occur, and also mentions the tower might 557 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 1: just be called the Maiden Tower because it was never 558 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 1: conquered by the enemy. It's the ideas like this, this 559 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 1: tower is it's a virgin tower. The enemy has never 560 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 1: defiled it. 561 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 2: I see. 562 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 1: So you have this history in Baku, you know, concerning 563 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 1: fire and uh and and you know, it's it's the 564 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 1: character of the city seems very much associated with it. 565 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,800 Speaker 1: And you see that even in the city's modern wonders. 566 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: There's a there there's a trio of skyscrapers. They are 567 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 1: known as the Flame Towers, and they they're they're very 568 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 1: beautiful in the pictures I looked at. They have this 569 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 1: kind of curling flame shape to them, and so you know, 570 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 1: during the day they're you know, reflective glass and steel, 571 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 1: very much like like any other modern skyscrapers. But I've 572 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,120 Speaker 1: also seen images where they lighted it like the light 573 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 1: these towers up at night with you know, swirling orange 574 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 1: and yellow and red and and also some blue thrown 575 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 1: in there as well that really make them look like, 576 00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,959 Speaker 1: you know, strong depictions of flames curling up from the air. 577 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 1: And this comes back to the idea that this is 578 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 1: a region rich in petroleum and natural gas, and you 579 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 1: have various sites of interest here that are associated with that, 580 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 1: including jan Ardagh also known as the Burning Mountain, and 581 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 1: this is where natural gas constantly seeps up through the 582 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,200 Speaker 1: ground and has been a flame since at least the 583 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties, when it may have been ignited by shepherds. 584 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:32,680 Speaker 1: So this is an example where ultimately who knows, but 585 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 1: at least one of the stories out there is that, okay, 586 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 1: there's gas leaking up and then some shepherds set it 587 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 1: on fire in the fifties, and by some accounts it 588 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 1: has been burning ever since. Flames reportedly jet about three 589 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 1: meters or nine point eight feet into the air from 590 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,240 Speaker 1: this site. And I looked up images of this site, 591 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 1: and this is another one where if you're going into 592 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 1: this expecting something out of Mordor, you're probably going to 593 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 1: be disappointed. It's basically this hillside and there's a there's 594 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 1: an area where there's not any vegetation, and then there's 595 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 1: an area that's really dark, and then here are the 596 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 1: fires springing out of the earth. Now, this area is 597 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 1: also known for its mud volcanoes, which are not true 598 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 1: volcanoes as they don't produce lava instead, And I have 599 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:20,800 Speaker 1: to throw in this wonderful description that I found for 600 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:24,279 Speaker 1: mud volcanoes in general from Brewster at All in a 601 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:28,880 Speaker 1: twenty fifteen article in Geo Echo Marina. They say that 602 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 1: these are geo exuded slurries, usually including water and gases. 603 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 1: So they look like a like a bit like bubbling mud, 604 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,880 Speaker 1: like gas rising up through the mud, you know, forming 605 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,240 Speaker 1: these big bump bubbles. It has kind of a bog 606 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,920 Speaker 1: of eternal stench kind of a look to it. And 607 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:51,480 Speaker 1: you know, some of these also looks very much like 608 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 1: an alien world, like you have this this kind of 609 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:57,240 Speaker 1: barren landscape and here's like the bubbling pool of mud 610 00:34:57,600 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 1: years ago. 611 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,400 Speaker 2: I think I flagged mud volcanoes as a is a 612 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:02,359 Speaker 2: potential episode topic for us. 613 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:04,319 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we could easily come back to it. 614 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 2: But yeah, weird sort of gray clay puke coming up 615 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 2: from these cracked blisters in the earth. It's pretty cool. 616 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:18,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, this region of Surakzani has long been associated 617 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 1: again often with fire worship or religious practices that concern fire, 618 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,760 Speaker 1: and their accounts going back apparently to the tenth century 619 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:30,600 Speaker 1: at least, But as luck would have it, we also 620 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 1: have accounts of this region from German traveler Ingolbert Khompher, 621 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,759 Speaker 1: who visited here in sixteen eighty three and has some 622 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 1: wonderful descriptions of what he saw Ingolbert Komper, of course, 623 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 1: popped up in our Vegetable Lamb episode. 624 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,480 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's right, as one of the early voices 625 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 2: of skepticism about this story, saying that I don't know. 626 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:53,880 Speaker 2: I traveled all over and people don't really seem to 627 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,360 Speaker 2: know what these stories are talking about. I do not 628 00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 2: think there is a plant that makes lamb. 629 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:05,319 Speaker 1: Yes. So the book in question is Exotic Attractions in 630 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:09,359 Speaker 1: Persia sixteen eighty four through sixteen eighty eight, and I 631 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:13,280 Speaker 1: was looking at a translation of this by Villain Floor, 632 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 1: which you can find on an ebook or physical book 633 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,600 Speaker 1: out there. So I'm just going to read just a 634 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 1: brief bit from it here where he's talking about these fires. 635 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:26,480 Speaker 1: From there, we continued our march, and after midday we 636 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 1: came to the burning field, covered with white sand and 637 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:34,800 Speaker 1: sprinkled with ashy dust. From numerous fissures, sulfurous spouts burst 638 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 1: from the soil, a varied and pleasant spectacle. Some fissures 639 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,799 Speaker 1: made a lot of noise, and with their fires and 640 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 1: their violence, aroused a holy fear among some rare spectators. 641 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 1: Others again emitted less strong flames, allowing everybody to come 642 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:55,239 Speaker 1: quite close. Others exhaled fumes or rather hardly visible vapors, 643 00:36:55,640 --> 00:37:00,080 Speaker 1: but which reeked strongly of the spirit of naphtha. This 644 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,239 Speaker 1: phenomena appeared in the area of eighty eight paces in 645 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:07,600 Speaker 1: length twenty six wide. The fissures were amazingly narrow, not 646 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: wider than one foot or one palm, some shorter and 647 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:15,320 Speaker 1: drawn into a semicircle, and others crooked with a long, 648 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:19,640 Speaker 1: insinuous bend, which I have shown accurately and conform to 649 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:24,279 Speaker 1: reality in the appended illustration to complete this description. The 650 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,000 Speaker 1: edges of these cracks and the soil itself, when you 651 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:30,880 Speaker 1: remove the dust, showed a pox marked light stone, almost 652 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,680 Speaker 1: like pumice stone. The matter seemed to be a conglomerate 653 00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:38,839 Speaker 1: of seashells and minuscule snail shells. We came upon about 654 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:41,720 Speaker 1: a dozen people who stayed there, who, around a fire, 655 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:44,680 Speaker 1: were engaged in all kinds of activities. In fact, some 656 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:48,680 Speaker 1: having placed copper or earthenware pots on a not too 657 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:51,960 Speaker 1: blazing crack, prepared the meals for the inhabitants of the 658 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 1: neighboring village of Sorgani at Swaga, thus named because of 659 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,560 Speaker 1: the fire. Others having brought stones from all aroun, and 660 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 1: having heaped them together, were burning a lime and once, 661 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,440 Speaker 1: when ready, they made a pile to transport it in 662 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:11,319 Speaker 1: small vessels. Two foreigners, Indian fire worshippers descended from the 663 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:15,480 Speaker 1: ancient Persians, were quietly seated around it enclosure they had constructed. 664 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,400 Speaker 1: They watched and venerated the spouting flame, offering prayers to 665 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,799 Speaker 1: the eternal God. One of the lime burners had approached us, 666 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,560 Speaker 1: proposing to show us something particularly extraordinary. If for this surface, 667 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,880 Speaker 1: we offered him some money. When we had counted it, 668 00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,640 Speaker 1: he placed small cotton balls that he tore from his 669 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,839 Speaker 1: dress on a fire shovel and set fire to them. 670 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,319 Speaker 1: Then he very quickly took the flame obtained in that 671 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 1: fashion above a fissure at some distance which had neither 672 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:45,360 Speaker 1: fire nor flame. Its vapor was everywhere invisible until it 673 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 1: produced a very high flame. This was a beautiful and 674 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:51,920 Speaker 1: unexpected moment. But the flame disappeared again after a while. 675 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:54,880 Speaker 1: Such is the first appearance of the wonders of nature, 676 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,279 Speaker 1: well known in this part of the peninsula, but not 677 00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:02,239 Speaker 1: in the same place, and eternally remained in people memory. Wow, yeah, 678 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:04,280 Speaker 1: so yeah, I love everything about that. Account. 679 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:06,239 Speaker 2: That's oh yeah, yeah, it's wonderful. 680 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:06,440 Speaker 1: Though. 681 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:12,319 Speaker 2: I have to notice Camphor mentions cotton, thinking back to 682 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,000 Speaker 2: the vegetable lamb thing, So he knew about he knew 683 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 2: about cotton at least I'm assuming this translation is accurate 684 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:21,440 Speaker 2: and that is what he meant instead of using the 685 00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:22,760 Speaker 2: word for wool or something. 686 00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:26,040 Speaker 1: That's a good point. That's a good point. So again, 687 00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:31,200 Speaker 1: that is from Exotic Attractions in Persia by Engelbert Komf 688 00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:34,400 Speaker 1: and you can pick up a copy of that that 689 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,520 Speaker 1: comes out from that's out from Mage Publishers, and there 690 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:41,160 Speaker 1: is a kindle edition. But there's another side of interest 691 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:45,040 Speaker 1: related to all of this, and that is the Atashka 692 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:48,279 Speaker 1: Fire Temple or the Fire Temple of Baku. This is 693 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 1: a square building with pentagonal walls and a domed roof 694 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:57,480 Speaker 1: constructed atop a natural gas leak that provides fuel for 695 00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:00,480 Speaker 1: a large flame in the center of the temple, as 696 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:03,440 Speaker 1: well as for four smaller flames on each of the 697 00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:07,680 Speaker 1: buildings on the roof. Basically, they're four small, almost like 698 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:11,000 Speaker 1: little towers, one at each corner of the of the roof, 699 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:13,359 Speaker 1: and those are flaming as well. 700 00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:16,760 Speaker 2: Oh wow, So this is a temple a religious building 701 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:20,080 Speaker 2: built around a natural gas leak. 702 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. So I love this because in that comfort account 703 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:27,080 Speaker 1: we had an example of people cooking over one of 704 00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:31,000 Speaker 1: these naturally occurring spouts of gas and spouts of flame. 705 00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:36,239 Speaker 1: And now we have an actual structure that is not 706 00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:40,640 Speaker 1: only like built around this, but seems to be manipulating 707 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:44,040 Speaker 1: the flow of gas so that you can have additional 708 00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:47,640 Speaker 1: fires control fires burning at the top of the temple. 709 00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:48,480 Speaker 2: Very cool. 710 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:52,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. And you know there's some old woodcuts of this, 711 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:55,279 Speaker 1: and also you know you can find modern photos of 712 00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:59,600 Speaker 1: it as well. It's been a place for Hindu, Sikh, 713 00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:04,040 Speaker 1: and so Astrian worship, and it seems to be some 714 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:07,799 Speaker 1: debate on who originally worshiped here. And part of this 715 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:11,600 Speaker 1: may be due to what Mary Boyce described in nineteen 716 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:14,960 Speaker 1: seventy five's on the Zoroastrian Temple Cult of Fire, published 717 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,760 Speaker 1: in the Journal of the American Oriental Society as quote 718 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:22,600 Speaker 1: the dearth of records of Zoroastrianism at any period before 719 00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:26,080 Speaker 1: the seventeenth century Ce. But Boyce points out a few 720 00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:29,480 Speaker 1: different ideas about the history of these fire temples. Again 721 00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:33,680 Speaker 1: in the particular mainly we're talking about in the Baku region. 722 00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,200 Speaker 2: First of all, I see okay. Yeah, I was like, sure, 723 00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:39,719 Speaker 2: we know it's older than that. Okay, I see in 724 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:40,320 Speaker 2: this region. 725 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:44,360 Speaker 1: So, first of all, the history is complex due to 726 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:49,600 Speaker 1: the existence of both Zoroastrian image cults and fire cults, 727 00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:52,400 Speaker 1: and there seemed to be an offer a lot of 728 00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:55,840 Speaker 1: overlap between the two. So she says that the image 729 00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:59,840 Speaker 1: cults seem to have lasted from the fourth century BC 730 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:05,799 Speaker 1: until they were suppressed by an iconoclastic movement under the 731 00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:09,359 Speaker 1: Sasanians or the Neo Persian Empire. And so in this 732 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,719 Speaker 1: we're getting back into this idea that we explored in 733 00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:16,960 Speaker 1: a previous episode about the role of images in worship. Yeah, 734 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:21,320 Speaker 1: so basically, and so the cult of the fire temples 735 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:25,560 Speaker 1: may have been instituted in opposition to quote, this alien 736 00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:28,480 Speaker 1: form of worship. And so I believe what she's saying 737 00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:33,080 Speaker 1: here is that as the use of images were suppressed 738 00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:36,680 Speaker 1: in their worship, they turned to the flame itself as 739 00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:39,719 Speaker 1: a focal point of worship. And we can see that 740 00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:43,799 Speaker 1: reflected in that story we were discussing earlier, praying to 741 00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:48,400 Speaker 1: Aramazda by using the flame as like the focal point 742 00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:51,719 Speaker 1: of the worship, right, and Boyce also points out that 743 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,319 Speaker 1: this would you could also link this to older traditions 744 00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:58,919 Speaker 1: of the veneration of hearth fires, and it goes without 745 00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:00,640 Speaker 1: saying I guess as well that this is a region 746 00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:04,439 Speaker 1: with natural gas easily linked to natural flames, et cetera. 747 00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:08,480 Speaker 1: So there's a local aspect of this going on. But 748 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:11,480 Speaker 1: then in general we also have these traditions of keeping 749 00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:15,040 Speaker 1: the fire and to a certain extent, venerating that fire 750 00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:18,680 Speaker 1: and protecting it and looking after it. She also points 751 00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:21,280 Speaker 1: out that quote, no actual ruins of a fire temple 752 00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:25,920 Speaker 1: have been convincingly identified from before the Parthian period, that's 753 00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:29,520 Speaker 1: from two forty seven BCE to two twenty four CE. 754 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:34,200 Speaker 1: Now this is another bit that I found quite interesting. 755 00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,799 Speaker 1: So this is a still I believe, a candidate to 756 00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:42,239 Speaker 1: become a UNESCO World Heritage Site, the temple of the 757 00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:46,800 Speaker 1: Flame temple here. But the temple flame, reportedly according to UNESCO, 758 00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:50,759 Speaker 1: went out in eighteen eighty three due to petroleum activity 759 00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:55,560 Speaker 1: in the region. So now it's lit via an artificial 760 00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:59,160 Speaker 1: gas line instead of natural gas emerging from the earth. 761 00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:01,440 Speaker 1: So it's in I seem to think of this, this 762 00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:04,960 Speaker 1: site and this date in eighteen eighty three is kind 763 00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:09,080 Speaker 1: of a key boundary point between the oil age, the 764 00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:12,920 Speaker 1: age of fossil fuel, and the period preceding it, a 765 00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:16,759 Speaker 1: time during which the divine fire is extinguished and that 766 00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:20,960 Speaker 1: is replaced by technological mastery over fossil fuels and fire. 767 00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:22,640 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, interesting. 768 00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:26,400 Speaker 1: So I found all this just just ritually interesting. I 769 00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:30,160 Speaker 1: have to admit I had not read much about Agerbrajan. 770 00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 1: I've never been to Arebajon, but this this is all wonderful. 771 00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:37,520 Speaker 1: I absolutely love it, and I would love to hear 772 00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:39,920 Speaker 1: from anyone out there listening to the show who is 773 00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:45,080 Speaker 1: in Agerbrajan, or as of Agrebrajan, a heritage that, or 774 00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:47,759 Speaker 1: is just traveled there and seeing these sits right in, 775 00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:50,880 Speaker 1: let us know. I'd love to have you know, some 776 00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:53,719 Speaker 1: more insight on all of this. All right, we're going 777 00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:55,560 Speaker 1: to go ahead and close it out here, but we're 778 00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:58,520 Speaker 1: going to be back, and hey, we might keep talking 779 00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:01,640 Speaker 1: on this topic. The is in motion, and there's there's 780 00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:03,080 Speaker 1: certainly more we could discuss here. 781 00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:06,920 Speaker 2: The burning continues, the fuel has not been extinguished yet, 782 00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,080 Speaker 2: so this may go on next week. 783 00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:11,799 Speaker 1: All right. In the meantime, again, we'd love to hear 784 00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:15,560 Speaker 1: from everyone out there has additional inside firsthand or otherwise 785 00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:20,040 Speaker 1: on the topics we've discussed here, you know, and also 786 00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:23,160 Speaker 1: anything about the previous episode or there are other episodes 787 00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:25,640 Speaker 1: that have come before, potential episodes we could record in 788 00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:29,880 Speaker 1: the future as a reminder. Core episodes of Stuff to 789 00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:32,640 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind air on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and the 790 00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:35,000 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind podcast feed You can get 791 00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:38,160 Speaker 1: that wherever you get your podcast these days. On Mondays 792 00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:41,080 Speaker 1: we do listener mail. On Wednesdays we do a short 793 00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:43,680 Speaker 1: form artifact or Monster Factor. On Fridays we do Weird 794 00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:45,880 Speaker 1: House Cinema. That's our time to set aside most serious 795 00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:47,960 Speaker 1: concerns and just talk about a strange film. 796 00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:51,439 Speaker 2: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Seth 797 00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:54,160 Speaker 2: Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get in touch 798 00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:56,560 Speaker 2: with us with feedback on this episode or any other, 799 00:45:56,640 --> 00:46:00,360 Speaker 2: to say hello or to suggest it up for the future, 800 00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:03,840 Speaker 2: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 801 00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:12,560 Speaker 2: your Mind dot com. 802 00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:15,560 Speaker 3: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 803 00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:18,439 Speaker 3: more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 804 00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:34,800 Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.