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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

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Speaker 1: day we bring you insight and analysis into the most

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Speaker 1: important legal news of the day. You can find more

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Speaker 1: episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud

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Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. President Trump calls

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Speaker 1: Special Counsel Robert Mueller's investigation into Russian election meddling a

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Speaker 1: disaster as he stood next to Vladimir Putin at a

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Speaker 1: news conference in Helsinki earlier. But Putin said that Trump

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Speaker 1: had asked him about the twelve Russian intelligence agents indicted

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Speaker 1: in Mueller's investigation on Friday. Let's get back the show.

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Speaker 1: This twelve alleged intelligence officers of Russia. I don't know

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Speaker 1: the full extent of the situation, but the President Trump

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Speaker 1: mentioned this issue and I will look into it. We're

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Speaker 1: joined by Jimmy Garoule, a professor at Notre Dame Law School. Jimmy,

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Speaker 1: once again, President Trump refused to give credence to the

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Speaker 1: investigation despite the indictments on Friday. What's your reaction, Well,

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Speaker 1: it's deeply disturbing, to say the least. It appears that

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Speaker 1: the President has decided to align himself with President Putin

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Speaker 1: and against the US intelligence community, including the CIA, the

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Speaker 1: National Security Agency, the DJ and all of the other

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Speaker 1: members of the intelligence agency. So he's savoring Russia and

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Speaker 1: he's uh raising questions regarding the credibility of U S

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Speaker 1: intelligence agencies, their investigation, and their efforts. We know that

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Speaker 1: Deputy A. G. Rod Rosenstein talked to Trump about the

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Speaker 1: indictments before well before he left early in the week,

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Speaker 1: and um he mentioned that he said that the president

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Speaker 1: should know because the president needs to have the knowledge

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Speaker 1: and all that we know in this area. And then

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Speaker 1: we had White House spokeswoman Lindsay Walters saying that the charges,

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Speaker 1: including o allegations of knowing involvement by anyone on the

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Speaker 1: campaign and no allegations at the alleged hacking, affected the

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Speaker 1: election result. So how important are those indictments in light

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Speaker 1: of that? Well, again, I think it's shocking that the

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Speaker 1: White House is more concerned about whether or not these

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Speaker 1: indictments against these twelves or the indictment against these twelve

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Speaker 1: Russian military intelligence officers implicates Trump and the members of

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Speaker 1: the Trump presidential campaign, and less concerned about whether or

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Speaker 1: not these efforts by the Russians or have undermined our

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Speaker 1: democracy with respect to the two thousand and sixteen presidential campaign,

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Speaker 1: and are continuing to undermined democracy with respect of the

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Speaker 1: upcoming two thousand and eighteen campaign. There appears to be

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Speaker 1: less concerned or less interest regarding regarding those efforts to

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Speaker 1: UH to compromise democracy in the United States. Jimmy, let's

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Speaker 1: look a little bit at the little closer at that indictment.

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Speaker 1: They're very specific about Russian activities taking place on the

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Speaker 1: same day as Trump made that infamous address where he

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Speaker 1: asked Russia to find Hillary Clinton's thirty thousand missing emails.

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Speaker 1: Is this setting up for something in the future? I mean,

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Speaker 1: can we read into this or should we not? Well?

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Speaker 1: I think it is interesting how how Mueller has has

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Speaker 1: progressed and how the investigation has evolved with respect to

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Speaker 1: the specific allegations regarding Russian interference in the presidential election.

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Speaker 1: So the first indictment dealt with UH Russians involved in

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Speaker 1: using social media to forment discord too so discord to

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Speaker 1: create chaos, to put one group of Americans against another

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Speaker 1: group of Americans. So that's the first indictment. Now the

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Speaker 1: second indictment actually goes into the end of the hacking,

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Speaker 1: the stealing of information from John Podesta's John Podesta's emails

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Speaker 1: about fifty email else we're stolen by the Russians, as

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Speaker 1: alleged in the indictment, and then the hacking into the

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Speaker 1: Democratic National Committees UM computers. So so I think in

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Speaker 1: in one way, he's educating the public regarding how Russia

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Speaker 1: interfered with the presidential election. And it could very well

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Speaker 1: be that the next indictment to come is the indictment

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Speaker 1: that pulls the trigger on on American involvement and and

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Speaker 1: this fraud and in this conspiracy. Well, the indictment does

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Speaker 1: show the actions alleged actions of unidentified Americans, including accounted

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Speaker 1: for Congress, a Republican lobbyist to run a Florida politics blog,

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Speaker 1: and a political political operative. And people have been speculating

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Speaker 1: about who those people might be. Um, does the fact

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Speaker 1: that they're unindicted mean that they're clear or mean that

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Speaker 1: they're possibly next up board? Doesn't mean anything? Well, it

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Speaker 1: is clearer. I mean the fact that they for example,

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Speaker 1: Roger Stone hasn't you know, he's a he's a formal

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Speaker 1: uh former advisor to the to the Trump presidential campaign,

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Speaker 1: and he himself is admitted he's continuing. So I'm probably

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Speaker 1: the individual this referenced in the indictment with respect to

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Speaker 1: communicating with Goosa for two point oh and so forth

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Speaker 1: and and so. But the fact that that that he

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Speaker 1: wasn't named in this indictment certainly does not mean that

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Speaker 1: he couldn't be named in a future indictment. And so

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Speaker 1: I think we're just gonna have to wait and see.

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Speaker 1: But again, I think this is a very methodical way

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Speaker 1: that the Muller team has has gone about educating the

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Speaker 1: public again to to lend credibility to to to these allegations.

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Speaker 1: It's not just simply some claim, but there's there is

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Speaker 1: just detail upon detail, level and layer and layer of

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Speaker 1: details of information regarding the strategy, how the strategy was implemented,

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Speaker 1: and the steps the meticulous us that we're taken to

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Speaker 1: to again to attempt to interfere with a campaign in

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Speaker 1: favor of Donald Trump and against Hillary Clinton. We have

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Speaker 1: been a mini here minute here. Jimmy um roger Stone

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Speaker 1: has not been interviewed by Mueller, and so people are

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Speaker 1: legal analysts are saying, well, that could be an indication

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Speaker 1: that he's going to be indicted, because usually prosecutors don't

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Speaker 1: talk to people that are the targets of their investigation.

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Speaker 1: But it could also mean nothing. Yeah, well, that's that's true.

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Speaker 1: But it is a general rule. It's a general principle.

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Speaker 1: The targets of the investigation are not of criminal investigation,

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Speaker 1: are not put before or subpoena secessify before a grand jury.

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Speaker 1: So this would be consistent with that principle. I mean

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Speaker 1: the meaning that that he could be indicted later on.

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Speaker 1: All right, thanks so much, Jimmy. The hunt for information

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Speaker 1: on this continues. That's Jimmy Garule, Professor, Notre Dame Law School.

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Speaker 1: The Jonesese Department has reopened its investigation into the murder

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Speaker 1: of Emmett Till, a fourteen year old black teenager whose

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Speaker 1: brutal killing became a symbol of the civil rights movement.

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Speaker 1: There was renewed interest in the case last year when

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Speaker 1: the woman who testified that Till had flirted with her

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Speaker 1: admitted to lying in a book written by Duke University

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Speaker 1: historian Timothy Tyson. Here's Tyson. I find it remarkable that

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Speaker 1: suddenly this is hitting the UH fund pages when they

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Speaker 1: are in UH such dire straits. About their race politics.

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Speaker 1: He's talking about his about the Trump administration. There joining

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Speaker 1: me as Cleonora Hudson Williams, professor at the University of Missouri,

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Speaker 1: Columbia and author of Emma Till, The Sacrificial Lamb of

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Speaker 1: the Civil Rights Movement. Cleonora explain Emma Till's impact on

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Speaker 1: the civil rights movement. Well, actually, um, initially, no one

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Speaker 1: wanted to think of it as uh being of any

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Speaker 1: real significance. In five when I started my research uh

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Speaker 1: and made it clear to my uh uh committee of

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Speaker 1: University of Iowa that Immett Till was the catalyst, that

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Speaker 1: wasn't the issue. So I'm happy that we got past that.

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Speaker 1: I was able to defend a dissertation night and everything

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Speaker 1: else since then is uh, you know, it's it's just

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Speaker 1: the done deal. Uh. Em Mattel actually happened August nineteen

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Speaker 1: fifty in Money, Mississippi. He was brutally lynched for whistling

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Speaker 1: at a white woman. People want to say that he

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Speaker 1: allegedly whistle, but of course my research has proven from

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Speaker 1: the very beginning that he did in fact whistle. That

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Speaker 1: wasn't a point. Uh. That still didn't give them right

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Speaker 1: to kill him. But that's what happened. UH. So with

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Speaker 1: that having happened, uh Emmett was lynched three months and

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Speaker 1: three days prior to Rosa Parks refusal to relinquish her

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Speaker 1: bus seat UH in Montgomery, Alabama, three months and three

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Speaker 1: days after that December one, nineteen five. And actually UH Immage.

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Speaker 1: She later much later admitted that when someone asked why

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Speaker 1: didn't she go to the back, she said she thought

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Speaker 1: about Immage and she couldn't go back. So we'll say,

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Speaker 1: and then, first of all, immatel happened before Rolls of

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Speaker 1: Parks demonstration, which actually set the state for the Montgomery

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Speaker 1: bus boycott. And then uh, secondly, UM, it's just something

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Speaker 1: that has just grown. All the all of the uh

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Speaker 1: pieces are coming together. Immatt was the true catalyst of

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Speaker 1: the civil rights movement, and what I wanted to do

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Speaker 1: was to free him from being from the stigma of

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Speaker 1: being an embarrassment to the movement because no one wanted

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Speaker 1: to talk about it. Let's let's let's move on to

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Speaker 1: the Justice Department reopening the case. The Justice Department reopened

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Speaker 1: the case in two thousand four, but closed it three

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Speaker 1: years later because the statute of limitations had expired on

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Speaker 1: federal charges. Why would the outcome be any different now

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Speaker 1: more than a decade later. I think that people are

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Speaker 1: more sensitive uh to uh fair treatment. UH A lot

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Speaker 1: of emphasis on diversity and uh and and fairness. UH.

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Speaker 1: And so I'm very happy, I am absolutely related uh

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Speaker 1: that the case is being reopened because it wasn't resolved promptly.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't fair, uh, and so it needs to be corrected. UH.

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Speaker 1: Historical wrongs have to be corrected or we will forever

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Speaker 1: be hunted by them. And so I think that that

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Speaker 1: was true with Mr Whitten, who was the focus of

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Speaker 1: my last book, uh in the Legacy, Redemption and Forgiveness,

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Speaker 1: because uh he was very morseful and spent a lifetime

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Speaker 1: and tony by representing poor black in the state of

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Speaker 1: Mississippi pro bono. And so that's what we're talking about.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about the fact that uh people today want

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Speaker 1: to do the right thing. I think that if we

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Speaker 1: give our people a chance to do the right thing,

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Speaker 1: there do it. And so if this trial is reopened,

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Speaker 1: we get a chance to posthumously UH, for those two

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Speaker 1: murderers are guilty of a crime, uh, even though they've

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Speaker 1: they've both both almost sixty or three years later. Both

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Speaker 1: men who were charged have died. The woman who is

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Speaker 1: at the center who said that she lied, is in

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Speaker 1: her eighties and it can't be prosecuted as a hate

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Speaker 1: crime because it was committed uh after so any conclusions

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Speaker 1: might be symbolic. Is that what you're saying worth more

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Speaker 1: than that? Number one is uh. We have a justice system.

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Speaker 1: When you go to court and you raise your hand

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Speaker 1: and testify and say that you are going to tell

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Speaker 1: the truth, and the whole truth will help you God,

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Speaker 1: you are responsible for that. Uh. She has admitted many

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Speaker 1: years later that that her testimony went a bit fard.

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Speaker 1: We know that emm and whistle, but all of the

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Speaker 1: touching and the things that she said that he uh

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Speaker 1: did Actually she was agreed with the prosecuting attorney that

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Speaker 1: Emmett had touched her and asked her for a date

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Speaker 1: and did more than the whistle he whistled. But that

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Speaker 1: was that was the extent of it. Now she has testified,

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Speaker 1: has has admitted rather uh many years later that that

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Speaker 1: was wrong. That was relying, and so Emmett lie, immage,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Uh. Carolin Bryant lied and Emma died. That's

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Speaker 1: the thing that's very, very significant. We have to look

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Speaker 1: at that and correct that she is guilty of perjury.

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Speaker 1: Perjury is a crime, and she needs to be prosecutor

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Speaker 1: on the basis of the crime that she committed. UM,

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Speaker 1: let me ask you this. We heard the author Timothy

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Speaker 1: Tyson say he's suspicious about the timing here, and he

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Speaker 1: said it's a political show for an administration criticized for

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Speaker 1: its racial politics. Do you agree with that or disagree?

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Speaker 1: Totally disagree. I don't think that. You know, it's unfortunate

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Speaker 1: that when we talk about the race factor it becomes

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Speaker 1: a bad thing. UH. It's not a bad thing if

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Speaker 1: there are some common analysis in the UH in the

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Speaker 1: UH information is being presented, or the very fact of

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Speaker 1: the matter, UH, the the the the I guess you

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Speaker 1: would say the underlined UH theme there or the goal

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Speaker 1: of or objective. That's okay, But look at it as

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Speaker 1: it in its own, you know circle. It's it's a

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Speaker 1: case that hasn't been resolved properly. It hasn't been it

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Speaker 1: hasn't been treated. Emmett has not been treated properly, nor

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Speaker 1: has his family, nor have African Americans. That's why we

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Speaker 1: feel many of them and I call them in matial

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Speaker 1: continuums because people want to say, hey, you know, that

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Speaker 1: happened a long time ago, and that's it, and so

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Speaker 1: whoy uh you know and and and you dismiss it,

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Speaker 1: and it gives it, it gives the wrong method we

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Speaker 1: have just leave it there. Thank you. That's Cleonora Hudson Williams,

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Speaker 1: Professor at the University of Missouri, Columbia. Thanks for listening

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Speaker 1: to the Bloomberg Lawn podcast. You can subscribe and listen

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Speaker 1: to the show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and on Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: dot com slash podcast. I'm June Brosso. This is Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: st