1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:05,080 Speaker 1: Also media. 2 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 2: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. It's be James and 3 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 2: today I am joined by Nick. Mike's been doing some 4 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 2: reporting on a forest occupation in Hint, which is a 5 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 2: place I used to live. Actually, Mick, would you like 6 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 2: to introduce yourself and sort of explain a little bit 7 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 2: about what you've been doing. 8 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 3: Of course, Hi, I'm Meck. I am incidentally reporting on 9 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:26,760 Speaker 3: stuff and I thought this was a pretty neat thing 10 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 3: to report on that I think people should know more about, 11 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 3: and it's also kind of a fun thing. 12 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 2: So yeah, it's very accessible for people, Like if you 13 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 2: want to do like little forest occupying over the summer, 14 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 2: this is one that you can do pretty easily. 15 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 4: Yeah. 16 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, you can skip your European festival season and just 17 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 3: go help at a forest occupation, which is cheaper and 18 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 3: much more memorable. 19 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 2: Yeah you can. God, they used to have one of 20 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 2: those near the little town I lived in when I 21 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 2: was racing in Belgium, and it was a scene. 22 00:00:57,560 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, just lovely times. 23 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, great times. We should maybe explain like a little 24 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 2: bit about Hunt as a city, because I think if 25 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:06,679 Speaker 2: people have seen it or they've maybe visited, like they've 26 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:08,680 Speaker 2: been to the middle of town, right, and they've they've 27 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 2: seen the castle and then the waterhouse bar or whatever, 28 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 2: and they've been one of those sugar noses, but like 29 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 2: they might not have seen the whole city. So, like, 30 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:18,760 Speaker 2: can you sort of characterize the city. 31 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,399 Speaker 3: Of course, it's very diverse in the sense that the 32 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 3: scenery changes a lot. You've got some of these like 33 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:29,680 Speaker 3: really old buildings that are just like speaking to your imagination. 34 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:34,399 Speaker 3: But then there's also almost like concrete deserts. Yeah, I 35 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 3: would almost call them where like the view on the 36 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 3: street is just an incredible amount of gray in varying colors. 37 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, thats it was a beautiful city. 38 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 3: I don't mean to thrash talk cantier at all, but 39 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 3: at times it's just really gray. 40 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 5: Yeah. 41 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I've lots of memories of springtime in Flanders and 42 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 2: like gray sky and gray buildings and gray roads and yeah, 43 00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 2: but also some very beautiful areas. So, yeah, what did 44 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 2: you where? You go ahead and explain to us a 45 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 2: little bit about this forest occupation. 46 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:08,360 Speaker 3: Okay, it's an occupation that's happening to a little north 47 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 3: of the city center. In terms of forest occupations, it's 48 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:19,640 Speaker 3: remarkably accessible. So it's called the Wombolhams Misson or Ponds 49 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 3: for you English speakers out there, and it's part of 50 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 3: an industrial area called the Dauci, which is located just 51 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 3: west of the canal the Lever, which connects the port 52 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 3: of Hnt, the third largest port in Belgium. The area 53 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 3: itself is about fourteen to fifteen hectares. I'm not sure 54 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 3: how to translate that to US numbers. 55 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:44,520 Speaker 2: I'm sorry, Yeah, neither, my terribulated American doesn't matter. 56 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:48,239 Speaker 3: There's internet, yeah, and the arch area has largely been 57 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 3: left to its own for a pretty significant amount of 58 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:53,679 Speaker 3: time past twenty years. 59 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:54,359 Speaker 4: Now. 60 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 3: There's two areas within the ponds, as I'm going to 61 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 3: call them, a northern part and a southern part, and 62 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 3: later down the line i'll explain why that is important 63 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:11,079 Speaker 3: before I continue further on the highlight. I went there 64 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 3: mainly as a form of solidarity and support. I had 65 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 3: asked if people would be willing to talk to me 66 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:21,519 Speaker 3: about in a journalistic or reporting capacity, and they agreed 67 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 3: to that. But I'm not a local, and I also 68 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:27,799 Speaker 3: don't want to pretend I am, although any listener will 69 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 3: hear my accent and know that. So yeah, we'll be 70 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 3: mainly talking about the southern area, and there's destination plans 71 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 3: before this area. There's essentially two parties that are working 72 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 3: together to turn these green areas into the gray concrete 73 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 3: deserts that we just talked about. These parties are the 74 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 3: municipality of Kent and the Lane, a government organization that 75 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 3: handles public transport and Flanders. So over the years, there 76 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 3: have been several plans to build or develop the ponds, 77 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 3: but up until last week. We're recording this in the 78 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 3: week of August eighth, but up until last week, no 79 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 3: permits were issued to actually finalize or realize these plans. 80 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 3: The northern part was supposed to be turned into a 81 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 3: sort of training area for bus drivers, while the southern 82 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 3: part is intended to be a parking lot for public 83 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 3: transport buses. The activists currently residing in the forests are 84 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 3: by no means against the idea of public transport, but 85 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:29,919 Speaker 3: do think that the destruction of this piece of nature 86 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 3: is counterproductive for both the locals and for climate change reasons. 87 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 3: There is enough concrete in the city already, and they 88 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 3: argue that alternative solutions have not been given the attention 89 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 3: they deserve. 90 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:45,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems like it wouldn't be hard to find, 91 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 2: Like I think, did they call it like a brown 92 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 2: field site, like a former industrial site or in that 93 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 2: area of Flanders to redevelop an old factory or a 94 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:56,839 Speaker 2: warehouse complex or something. To do this rather than taking 95 00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 2: one of the green spaces and destroying it and paving 96 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 2: get over. 97 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,600 Speaker 3: You know, I don't know what the municipality was thinking, 98 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:07,919 Speaker 3: but I'm sure there is like barren areas elsewhere that 99 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:11,840 Speaker 3: can just as easily be repurposed in a way that 100 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 3: doesn't like destroy nature. So the part that was most 101 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 3: surprising to me and at the same time not at all, 102 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,840 Speaker 3: is how this is being played out politically. To give 103 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:26,720 Speaker 3: everyone a quick timeline, about twenty years ago, the municipality 104 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 3: designated these two zones that I talked about as to 105 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:34,599 Speaker 3: be used for common use. I'll remain not for those 106 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 3: speaking Dutch or Flemish. 107 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 4: Well. 108 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,160 Speaker 3: At the same time the ground was being bought by 109 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 3: the public transport company the lane plans for development started. 110 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:48,280 Speaker 3: There is even like an unused tram bridge just outside 111 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 3: the green zone and the occupation. But for one reason 112 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 3: or another, the permit to build on the ground itself 113 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 3: had expired, during which time nature took it upon herself 114 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 3: to reclaim the area. Now, what I meant earlier is 115 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 3: this difference between the north and the south part. These 116 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:08,799 Speaker 3: are separated by train tracks, making a very clear distinction 117 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:12,279 Speaker 3: between the two areas. The land originally wanted to use 118 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 3: the north part to make a sort of training area, 119 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:19,840 Speaker 3: as I just said, but these plans never materialized. At 120 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 3: the same time, about three years ago, another action group 121 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 3: prevented this destruction of the northern part. Now this is 122 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 3: where I find it really interesting. The terrain is still 123 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 3: owned by the lane and the municipality, but they intend 124 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 3: to give custody to a local environmental group called a 125 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:41,600 Speaker 3: nativeunt but only if the plans for the southern part, 126 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 3: where there is an occupation right now, are completed. 127 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 4: Oh yes, yes, interesting. 128 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 3: Yeah. While I was talking to my source, I was 129 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 3: reading between the lines there as a sort of an 130 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 3: attempt to play these multiple environmental organizations against each other, 131 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:01,919 Speaker 3: a sort of divide and conquer. 132 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 2: M Yeah, very new theory is. 133 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 4: When I asked my. 134 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:07,480 Speaker 3: Source about that, they said that it was up to 135 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 3: mediate whether or not I would call it that, but 136 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 3: that the existence of these plants is just the reality. Now, 137 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 3: I will not claim probably for legal reasons that there's 138 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 3: definitely some attempt to set these parties up against each other. 139 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 3: But from the information that I have, like if I 140 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 3: were a betting man, I know where i'd put my money. 141 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really interesting. So like not true to punt 142 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 2: is not present in the forest occupation on the southern side, 143 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 2: is that right? 144 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 6: Uh? 145 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 2: Not that I'm aware of, And so they'd stand to 146 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 2: like they'd gain custody of the northern side of the 147 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 2: people on the southern side failed exactly. 148 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, and how a fairy is exactly and if the 149 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 3: southern side now succeeds in preventing like the tearing down 150 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 3: of the trees, then the northern side could become you know, 151 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 3: threatened again, and then this whole circus starts all over again. 152 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 2: Right, Yes, both of them have the avested interest in 153 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 2: one of these Well, in theory, the municipality would maybe 154 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 2: would like them to think that both of them have 155 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 2: an interest in the paving over of one of these areas. 156 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 3: But exactly, like someone has to lose in this equation. 157 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 3: And I find it interesting that that it's happening like this, 158 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 3: especially because Hans kind of promotes itself on these green 159 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 3: zones that are mixed throughout the city and that are 160 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 3: then again accessible for people by bike or through running 161 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:36,199 Speaker 3: or walking. And then in that same breath there's also 162 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 3: still the oh yeah, one of these species of nature 163 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 3: we need to tear down because we need more concrete. Yeah, 164 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 3: those two views just don't align. 165 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:48,599 Speaker 2: Right, And like we said, there's no shortage of Concretely, 166 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:52,719 Speaker 2: this is a very sort of post industrial area. It's 167 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 2: not like this is like a public facing thing that 168 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 2: needs to be in one area to be accessible to people, right, 169 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 2: Like they could store their buses, train their buster, you know, 170 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,679 Speaker 2: somewhere else in Flanders. It's it's not like it needs 171 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 2: to be right in town. 172 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 3: Now. I'm certain there are other areas where you could 173 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 3: just as easily make a parking lot for buses. Yeah, 174 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 3: as for like a training grounds, I'm not sure how 175 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 3: that would work. But then again, there I think there's 176 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 3: roads enough in the city for people to practice. Like 177 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 3: even like industrial areas tend not to have very much traffic, 178 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 3: so that could still work without having to like again 179 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 3: get rid of a piece of forest just so people 180 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 3: can drive around in buses. Yeah, but again, this is 181 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 3: not an argument against public transport. 182 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:42,079 Speaker 4: More in the like hypocrisy. 183 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 3: And senselessness of the plants that are on the table 184 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 3: right now. 185 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, and kind of trying to make people choose between 186 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 2: two things when they should be perfectly possible to have both. 187 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 4: Right exactly. 188 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:55,080 Speaker 3: I'm guessing it would also be more cost effective if 189 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 3: you take some other parts, because I'll dive into that later. 190 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 3: By there's also like pollution in these areas that needs 191 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 3: to be taken care of. So just from a cost 192 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 3: effective standpoint, I think there should be alternative options that 193 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 3: will keep everyone happier. 194 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:14,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. So, yeah, described to me your visit there, like, 195 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 2: describe how it was and what you winness there? 196 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:22,199 Speaker 3: Okay, Well I went there at the end of July. 197 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 3: I stayed a few days and it was really weird 198 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 3: because you're coming from again a tram stop, then you 199 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 3: have to walk for a bit and all of the 200 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 3: sudden it's like you're in a forest. 201 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 4: It was. 202 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 3: It was really surreal almost to know that you're in 203 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 3: the middle of a big city but also have that 204 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 3: kind of like isolation from the sounds of traffic. 205 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean that's lovely, right, It's nice that's that's 206 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 2: available at least for now. 207 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I understand one hundred percent why people want 208 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:57,199 Speaker 3: to keep that green space close to their homes. Yeah, 209 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 3: So the ponds are a mix of terrain like there's 210 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 3: like water hungry like swampy areas when the ring has 211 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 3: been falling. There's lush grass fields with like little curvy 212 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 3: impromptu paths to take. And there's some parts where the 213 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 3: trees have been growing for long enough that people can 214 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 3: now build treehouses in them, which to me is quite 215 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 3: a good indicator that not much development or care has 216 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:27,680 Speaker 3: been done in this strain. There's an absolutely insane amount 217 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 3: of BlackBerry bushes, much to mydy light. And yeah, it's 218 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 3: just for an area that is relatively small in the 219 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:39,839 Speaker 3: bigger picture. It just surprised me how many different faces 220 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 3: it has. It was a delight to be there. Locals 221 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 3: tend to use the area for walks or picnics or 222 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 3: to take their dogs out. I've seen multiple people stopping 223 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 3: by just to pick the blackberries. The city itself calls 224 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 3: this entire area a green zone and a climate access 225 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 3: their words, can is done is trying to create like 226 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:05,080 Speaker 3: a network of zones and roads that are accessible by car, 227 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 3: but not so much that there is a lot of 228 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:12,319 Speaker 3: traffic on these roads, which makes them ideal for cycling, running, recreation, 229 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 3: or even transports if you would so choose. The website 230 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 3: of can itself promotes these areas is good for the 231 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 3: flora and fauna, for the environment, and subsequently for residents. 232 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 3: Then you need to be thinking of absorption of rain water, 233 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:32,199 Speaker 3: or keeping local populations of animals and plants healthy, or 234 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 3: just the cooling effect that nature has. 235 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, compared to black top. 236 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 3: Exactly like fully, concrete cities tend to like not really 237 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 3: release their warmth as quickly as nature does it. And 238 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:47,319 Speaker 3: it was surprising because it was really hot when I 239 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 3: was there, but in the shade of the trees, it 240 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:54,320 Speaker 3: was perfectly doable up until the point where you actually exercised, 241 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 3: and then suddenly it was less cool. But different story again. 242 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:03,960 Speaker 3: The webs from the municipality itself acknowledges the importance of 243 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 3: the area for an endangered species of lizard and the 244 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 3: efforts that the city took to make sure that it 245 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 3: can still thrive there. More concretely, one person I spoke 246 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:17,959 Speaker 3: to said that there are thirty nine protected species of 247 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:21,440 Speaker 3: plants and animals living there, protected under both Flemish and 248 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 3: European law. 249 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 4: So I'm not. 250 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 3: Really sure why that's discarded into the calculation. I'm not 251 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:30,680 Speaker 3: a municipality person. 252 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 4: I don't know. 253 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 3: Also, I believe there have been sightings of foxes there, 254 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 3: mainly because we were told by the activists not to 255 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 3: eat the blackberries that are too close to the ground 256 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 3: due to the parasites that foxes may carry and can 257 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 3: subsequently like infect people with. 258 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 2: Oh wow, yeah interesting. 259 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:52,959 Speaker 3: You know what else carries parasites, James? 260 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 2: Is it the goods and services that we rely on 261 00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 2: to pay for this podcast? 262 00:13:58,440 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 4: Exactly? 263 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:02,200 Speaker 3: There's a fifty percent chance that these products and surfaces 264 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 3: will give you one or another incurable parasite. 265 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 2: Wonderful, and we're back. And you mentioned that there was 266 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 2: a problem with pollution in the wilderness space, you can explain, 267 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 2: like what kind of pollution then entails. 268 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 3: Of course, in the pasta has been like a pollution 269 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 3: of both the groundwater and the soil in and of itself. 270 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 3: That's not that remarkable. I've been told by someone that 271 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 3: Flanders has multiple spots where you can come into contact 272 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 3: with different forms of pollution. In the ponds. There is 273 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 3: both pollution in the soil and in the groundwater. The 274 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 3: soil itself contains asbestos, although it should be noted that 275 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 3: that is within like the acceptable regulatory norms. As a 276 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 3: refresher for listeners, Asbestos dangerizes mainly in the breaking or 277 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 3: fracturing of the material, and the fibers that release through 278 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 3: that process is what makes asbestos so hazardous. An effective 279 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 3: way to mitigate is to make sure that these fibers 280 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 3: do not get into the air, for which water tends 281 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 3: to work. Wonders so, at least in terms of asbestos, 282 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 3: it seems very simple and cost effective to just leave 283 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 3: it undisturbed, because it's already an area that likes to 284 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 3: swallow up water, which then will isolate the asbestos from 285 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 3: the air, and thus you make. 286 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 4: It less harmful. 287 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 3: The water is contaminated with vocis. That's an acronym for 288 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 3: a variety of volatile organic compounds with some chlorine attached 289 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 3: to it. 290 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 4: I don't know. I'm not a chemist. 291 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 3: These chemicals have several uses and applications in a variety 292 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 3: of industry. One of my sources told me that the 293 00:15:55,520 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 3: specific chemical is one point for dioxane, which is used 294 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 3: as a solvent. It's not the type of stuff you 295 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 3: want to drink or inhale, but serious exposure from contaminated 296 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 3: soil or water is pretty rare from what I've read. 297 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 3: As my source pointed out, the contaminants in the water 298 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 3: will overtime degrade organically, a process called phytoremediation, where the 299 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 3: presence of plants and microorganisms and fungi will degrade the 300 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 3: material and reduce the toxicity. While reading into this, I 301 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 3: found that the same is true to an extent for asbestos, 302 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 3: which can be a source of inorganic nutrients for these microorganisms. 303 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 3: So while you could point out that phytoremediation is a 304 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 3: longer process than sanitation, I personally think that it's just 305 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 3: common sense that letting nature do its work understirb might 306 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 3: be significantly cheaper and more sustainable compared to putting additional 307 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 3: chemicals and substances in the ground to neutralize these vocis. 308 00:16:58,120 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 4: Also just a fun little sideway. 309 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 3: Last year, but in order to monitor the area, the 310 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 3: line employed a concierge to walk the terrain on a 311 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 3: daily basis. I'm unsure if you can spot upcoming or 312 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 3: emerging contamination with the naked eye, but not my money 313 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 3: that they used to pay the guy. 314 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:19,640 Speaker 2: So this guy just his job was to walk around 315 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 2: the ponds. 316 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, pretty much. I'm told he had like a little 317 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:29,679 Speaker 3: hut or a little shack from which he worked. The 318 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 3: guy was still working there at the time the activists 319 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 3: moved in, but the shack is gone, and so is 320 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 3: the concierge. I'm not sure about the details of what 321 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 3: happened there, but what I do find extremely funny is 322 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:47,640 Speaker 3: that now officials and spokespersons from the development site are 323 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:49,919 Speaker 3: claiming that the area is dangerous and that it is 324 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:52,640 Speaker 3: for their own well being that the activists leave as 325 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:57,439 Speaker 3: soon as possible, which doesn't really make sense to me. Like, 326 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 3: either this argument is like incredibly this genuinus or they 327 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,639 Speaker 3: fucked over someone by paying them to take this incredibly 328 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,879 Speaker 3: the risky job of walking over contabinated terrain. 329 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, and not to mention like all the people who 330 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 2: they allowed toward their dogs and plick blackberries there and things. 331 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:18,679 Speaker 3: Exactly if it was that dangerous that people should not 332 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 3: be there, then I'm fairly certain they could muster better 333 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:24,679 Speaker 3: fences than they did at the moment. Like, I'm not 334 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 3: sure I'm offense economy in the broader sense, but there 335 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 3: should at least have been signs on the fences. Yeah, 336 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 3: and there were none, so yeah, we're getting to the 337 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:38,680 Speaker 3: octupist groups. The group that is currently occupying the trees 338 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 3: is an assembly of people who care deeply about the 339 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:45,360 Speaker 3: area itself. I spoke on the record with one of them, 340 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:47,400 Speaker 3: and I would like to play this clip to let 341 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 3: them introduce themselves. 342 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 5: I'm Elvid and one of the activists of the Wonder 343 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 5: Miss occupation which he occupied since the twentieth of June, 344 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 5: and we occupied this because it's endangered since the the land, 345 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:09,199 Speaker 5: which is the public transports company in Flanders, wants to 346 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 5: destroy these fifteen hectares of nature for building a bus 347 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 5: depot to parking for buses. 348 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:22,160 Speaker 3: Okay, do you want to tell us about what what 349 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,359 Speaker 3: you you and the group of activisties have done here. 350 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 6: Yeah. 351 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:31,400 Speaker 5: So we live in the trees as much as possible, 352 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 5: and we we sleep there to make an eviction harder 353 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 5: and to have more power in our in our action 354 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 5: to like, it's way more difficult for them to get 355 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 5: us out if we are on height and use other 356 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:54,920 Speaker 5: tactics to to block them. And they also cannot start 357 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:57,440 Speaker 5: cutting trees when we are in the trees. 358 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 6: Another trees is that for you it's intends. 359 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 5: Always an occupation, of course, but also places of very 360 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 5: very experiment with living together and where everyone is welcome. 361 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 6: There are no door bells, no walls. 362 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:23,920 Speaker 5: Forests are very open place where everyone can just come 363 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 5: in and feel like they are welcome, and it's not 364 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 5: owned by someone. 365 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:29,400 Speaker 1: It's not. 366 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 5: Yeah, it doesn't feel like it's belonging to someone, which 367 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 5: you can easily have with the house, I think, but 368 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:41,120 Speaker 5: here there's all the space to make stuff, to live, 369 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:47,399 Speaker 5: to take time for yourself, which makes it very healthy, 370 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 5: I think, to live here by being in nature, people 371 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:54,159 Speaker 5: are just more happy, I think in general than in 372 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:59,360 Speaker 5: the city and in the house. And the area are 373 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 5: mainly building three houses. As you can hear, maybe. 374 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 3: Probably so as you've heard that was Arvid, one of 375 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 3: the activists that I spoke to. As you've also probably heard, 376 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,200 Speaker 3: is that there is construction going on in the trees. 377 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:23,360 Speaker 3: There's multiple tree houses there at the moment, and that's 378 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 3: where they sleep. When I spoke further to Arvid, he 379 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 3: made clear, like the demands that the activists have, which 380 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,359 Speaker 3: is mainly that they don't want the needless destruction of 381 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:37,200 Speaker 3: this area. There's intention is to remain in the trees 382 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 3: and make it hard, if not impossible, through the trees 383 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 3: to be felt. There are multiple tree houses with enough 384 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 3: stability and space for multiple people. On top of that, 385 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 3: they are preparing for a possible eviction, all while also 386 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,399 Speaker 3: living happily and communally, like every night they cook together, 387 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 3: they're having dinner together. I found it incredibly healing and 388 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 3: wholesome to just have a meal around the small fire 389 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 3: with a group of like minded people, not hearing traffic 390 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:07,119 Speaker 3: or other urban noises. A bright spot was one evening 391 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:11,919 Speaker 3: where someone played a Dutch protest song and just on 392 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:15,360 Speaker 3: the guitar satirizing an unnamed US president for his role 393 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 3: in the Vietnam War, which can't escape US politics even 394 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 3: in the middle of a forest. So then I would 395 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 3: like to play a second clip, And how do you 396 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 3: want to talk about how your relationship it is with 397 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 3: the neighbors around here? 398 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 5: Yeah, the neighbors they started their own action committee for 399 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 5: more than three years ago, I think, and they have 400 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:48,719 Speaker 5: already saved one piece of the Wildenhemson myths, which is 401 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 5: on the north part of the trainer. So this one 402 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 5: is no safe, it's only three hectors. But it was 403 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:02,639 Speaker 5: also the learned to wanted to for it for making 404 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 5: I say, a place to practice to drive for the bush, 405 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 5: like a training ground for for bus strives exactly. So 406 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:17,440 Speaker 5: just put concrete on this swampy area to them once 407 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:19,360 Speaker 5: in a while drive for the bus there as if 408 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 5: there is no other concrete in the city to practice. 409 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,639 Speaker 5: But this is now safety and now the neighbors are 410 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 5: also for this big piece of the whams meths are 411 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 5: now going to start a court case against the decision 412 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:40,920 Speaker 5: because the Ministry of throughout the the Ministry of Environment, 413 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 5: they approved the permits for for the style plots for 414 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 5: the bust. 415 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:55,199 Speaker 3: Okay, uh that was yesterday that that was announced. Uh, 416 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 3: how are you feeling? How are you feeling right now? 417 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 3: Do you have any plans on how to continue the 418 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 3: fight against the bulldozing of this place. 419 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,920 Speaker 5: Yeah, we are not surprised that she approved it was 420 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 5: we saw it coming a bit. But it's just very 421 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 5: ridiculous and we will keep fighting, of course, because this 422 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 5: is a very Hypocrates and saying that we have to 423 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:27,399 Speaker 5: save that nature. But in the meantime she she proves 424 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 5: decisions to destroy them this kind of nature. So we 425 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 5: just continue to fight and the neighbors do it with 426 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 5: the court case, we keep where, we stay here, and 427 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,719 Speaker 5: we we keep building and prepare for an eviction. 428 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 2: That's really interesting. That diversity of taxes at cooperation, I 429 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,440 Speaker 2: think is really valuable in these kind of struggles. Can 430 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 2: you explain a little bit more about that, like how 431 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 2: that works. 432 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 3: Well, I think it was just the stars that aligned 433 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 3: for this particular goal. There is a neighborhood committee that's 434 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 3: also heavily opposed to the destruction of this area, but 435 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 3: it's mainly a well, a neighborhood committee like these are 436 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 3: people who will stand up to like the municipality, but 437 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 3: entirely through the legal system or the judicial system. And 438 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 3: I think this committee was like at least a year 439 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,719 Speaker 3: or two maybe even more old before the occupation happened. 440 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 3: And the occupation also happens separately from the committee, So 441 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 3: you kind of have this, you know, alliance now between 442 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,400 Speaker 3: like a group of people who will take more direct 443 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:45,159 Speaker 3: action against the plans to destroy the place and this 444 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 3: group who is going to do that by filing court 445 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:53,120 Speaker 3: cases against the plans that the land and the municipality 446 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 3: are trying. 447 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 4: To realize right now. 448 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 3: It's really funny always because one of my sources said 449 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:00,920 Speaker 3: the people who are occupied and the forest came down 450 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 3: like angels. The activists really don't like to be called that, 451 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 3: but it's sort of. Yeah, just they have a common 452 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,879 Speaker 3: they have a common goal, and for that they're working together. 453 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,920 Speaker 3: And from what I've seen, there is very warm and 454 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,679 Speaker 3: friendly contact between the groups. I've seen multiple neighbors come 455 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,879 Speaker 3: by with like food or building materials, like think of 456 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 3: screws or nails, or like wooden beams for construction. I 457 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 3: think there was one person who, like every Sunday brings pancakes. 458 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 3: I'm not sure if they still do that, but it's 459 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 3: pretty cool. Yeah, exactly. I've seen people come by and 460 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 3: drop off like bags of like dried beans and lentils. 461 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:47,640 Speaker 3: I think it's really fascinating that how organically these two 462 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 3: groups sort of come together and in their common goal, 463 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 3: but also that the two different strategies kind of strengthen 464 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:56,119 Speaker 3: each other. 465 00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,639 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, Like its obviously you've got people who wouldn't 466 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 2: think of occupying forests, but then they find themselves in 467 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 2: solidarity with the people who do. And I think that's 468 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 2: really cool that, like you said, there was no prior communication, right, 469 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,959 Speaker 2: these folks just arrived began the occupation and the locals 470 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 2: will like, guess, this is exactly what we needed. Thank you. 471 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 3: In so far as I understood it, that's how it happened. 472 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 3: As I said earlier, like the combination of text tactics 473 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 3: just make their path towards their goal so much more tangible, 474 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 3: because by occupying the forests they can't start like early 475 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 3: construction in the area, or I know some municipalities or 476 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 3: cities kind of begin with the destruction prior to having permission. 477 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,200 Speaker 3: But then it's like, oh, yeah, we've already started, so 478 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,639 Speaker 3: it's of no use anymore. Which I'm not sure how 479 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 3: common it is in other countries, but I've heard of 480 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 3: that in a with an activist circles in the Netherlands, 481 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 3: and all the while is committed, he is like doing 482 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 3: the court cases and filing legal motions and yeah, I 483 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,920 Speaker 3: think I think it's a really warm and friendly contact. 484 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what it's kind of nice to see exactly. 485 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 4: Okay, I have one other clip. 486 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 3: How does it make you feel that the neighbors are 487 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 3: so supportive? As you said, they're bringing food on a 488 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 3: regular basis. I've seen I think a few who brought 489 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 3: materials even like screws, or nails. 490 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 4: What does that do with your morale or your motivation? 491 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:37,920 Speaker 6: Yeah, I think we wouldn't really be here if they 492 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 6: would be. 493 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 5: Broad bus debuts, but of course they are not, because 494 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 5: it's just a very stupid idea to destroy this valuable 495 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 5: nature fruit. 496 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 6: But yeah, we. 497 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:58,720 Speaker 5: We help each other a lot, and we yeah, we 498 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,719 Speaker 5: keep each other strong but supporting each other. And they 499 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 5: were very moved by us being here, and they even 500 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 5: caught as they're angels, which you don't like to be caught. 501 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's it, Okay, Yeah, is there anything else you 502 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 3: would like to share or to have on on the record. 503 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 5: Yeah, we would like to invite everyone to come here. 504 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 5: There's more inforant wonder misson that snow blocks dot org. 505 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 5: And yeah, there will still be the the whole court case, 506 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 5: or there was a chance we stay longer, but they 507 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 5: also have the legal. 508 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 6: Right to to evicted, which would also be paying for it. 509 00:29:52,880 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 2: But yeah, obviously people, that is to show we'll be 510 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 2: familiar with the forest occupations in Atlanta. What's a state 511 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 2: response to this look like? 512 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 3: For a long time, there has been very little state response. 513 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 3: While I was there, the permit to develop the area 514 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 3: was granted, but for the most part, there's occasional a 515 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 3: car that drives by. I did receive word that a 516 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 3: few days ago a few cops came onto the terrain 517 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 3: took pictures of everything, and the next morning there was a. 518 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 4: Drone flying over the camp. 519 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 3: Yeah. 520 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 4: Yes, so things are. 521 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 3: Like tensing up a bit and we'll have to see 522 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 3: how We'll have to see how it goes. Obviously, like 523 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 3: the case is still like in the judicial so we'll 524 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,160 Speaker 3: have to see what comes from that. But up until now, 525 00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 3: things have been quiet and peaceful. 526 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, because I think people sometimes obviously make the 527 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 2: US really strive to lead the world in police violence, 528 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 2: but I think that those people underestimate the capacity of 529 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 2: European states for for state violent. 530 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 4: That's definitely true. 531 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 3: Like our lack of guns makes it that not many 532 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 3: people are getting shot by police, but against activists or protests, 533 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 3: police can be pretty pretty violent. I don't have much 534 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 3: experience with Belgium police myself. I've heard conflicting stories about them. 535 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 3: I was at the May first celebration in Brussels, became 536 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 3: incredibly prepared and then it was all okay, literally nothing 537 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 3: noteworthy to mention. But then when I speak to other 538 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 3: people I hear like, oh, you know, Belgium police worse 539 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 3: than the Dutch. But then that very also varies from 540 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 3: city to city and that's a whole nother rabbit hole 541 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:53,920 Speaker 3: to go down into. 542 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 6: Yeah, so for now, not. 543 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 3: Much police action against the activists. Not sure if or 544 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 3: when that will change. 545 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 2: Right, So, if people wanted to if they said everyone 546 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 2: was welcome, yes, and I presume they can drop in 547 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 2: for the day, or they can go and stay over 548 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 2: a period, or they can, you know, commit staying until 549 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 2: the forest to say, is it easy to access? Can 550 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 2: you walk there? Could you like take I guess ironically 551 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 2: maybe could you take a bus? 552 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 3: And there is a tram that stops pretty close by. 553 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 3: They have an Instagram account that I don't know from 554 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 3: the top of my head because I don't know use Instagram. 555 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 2: We'll link in the notes. 556 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 3: I think if you just search for like a womble 557 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 3: mesa or womblem meths and you'll find something. You can 558 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 3: contact them there and they can give you more details 559 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 3: on how exactly to get there. Yeah, you can come 560 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 3: by for a day, you can combine for two weeks, 561 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 3: that's up to you. You're welcome there. What I would 562 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 3: like to urge everyone is. If you plan on going there, 563 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 3: contact them about the supplies Neat when I arrived there, 564 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 3: I got some like some small kitchen knives and like 565 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 3: literally for cutting veggies, and some canned foods and some 566 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 3: first aid supplies because it is largely donation based what 567 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,720 Speaker 3: they're doing there, So yeah, anything that you can spare 568 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 3: or can purchase for them would be greatly appreciated. To 569 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 3: check the website, check their Instagram. There might be a 570 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 3: Facebook page. I think there is a Facebook page for 571 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 3: those still using Facebook, So yeah, I would recommend it, 572 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 3: like go over there, help out. They're very friendly people 573 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 3: if you're interested in doing something like this. This is 574 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 3: like a very entry level thing. 575 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, like you said, it's not just like a good 576 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,240 Speaker 2: thing to do. It's also a nice fun thing to do. 577 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 2: Like it's these spaces could be really healing, just live 578 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:56,400 Speaker 2: being among like minded people, like you said, in nature exactly. 579 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 3: And like when I was there, they gave like a 580 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 3: climbing workshop, so they taught me how I should climb 581 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:08,200 Speaker 3: a tree with like gear around my waist and everything's cool. Yeah, 582 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,399 Speaker 3: and follow the agreements that people make between each other. 583 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 3: Besides that, there's not really any rules. You're free to 584 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 3: come for a day, you're free to stay for two weeks. 585 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 3: That's entirely up to you. Just it's nice to help out, 586 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,399 Speaker 3: and even if it's just help with cutting vegetables for dinner. Yeah, 587 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 3: that's already incredibly appreciated. And in the meantime people can 588 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,359 Speaker 3: do other stuff that needs to happen around the camp. 589 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,840 Speaker 3: And yeah, in terms of activism, this is a small 590 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 3: step to do, but it can also just be a 591 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:43,759 Speaker 3: really good experience for years for you, and all the 592 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 3: while helping the locals and helping the activists, which is 593 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:49,840 Speaker 3: the sort of mutual aid that I would prefer to 594 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:51,319 Speaker 3: see a lot more. Yeah. 595 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:53,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's great that it's integrated with the community, 596 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,800 Speaker 2: and I think it's great that it's accessible for people 597 00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,879 Speaker 2: and hopefully folks will go bring something dow need. It's 598 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 2: cool that they can, you know, share skills. I've learned 599 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 2: a lot in different activist spaces. I think that's really cool. Mick, 600 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,520 Speaker 2: is is there anywhere that people can follow you if 601 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 2: they'd like to? 602 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,919 Speaker 3: Yes, I have a Twitter account now because I don't 603 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:19,880 Speaker 3: see enough horrible shit. It's at two Sober Possums or 604 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,600 Speaker 3: under the name Mick Smith, M I c K s M. 605 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:27,960 Speaker 3: I don't think I've posted anything yet, so I'll think 606 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,319 Speaker 3: of something funny, but feel free to reach out there 607 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:32,400 Speaker 3: if for reasons. 608 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm cool with that. Great, Well, thank you very much. 609 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 1: There was. 610 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:37,800 Speaker 2: I think that's really interesting. I hope people will go. 611 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:40,600 Speaker 2: If you go, you know, send us a little message, 612 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 2: let us know how your experience was in the forest. 613 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 4: I'd love that. 614 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 2: It would make me happy. 615 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:51,879 Speaker 1: Likewise, it could happen here as a production of cool 616 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,600 Speaker 1: Zone Media. One more podcasts from the cool Zone Media. 617 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,319 Speaker 1: Visit our website pool zonemedia dot com, or check us 618 00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,239 Speaker 1: out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or where you 619 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,000 Speaker 1: listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It could 620 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:06,920 Speaker 1: happen here, updated monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. 621 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:07,920 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.