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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years

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Speaker 2: writing about true crime.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 2: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 3: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 3: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones. Hi, Kate, Hey, Paul, how are you.

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Speaker 3: I'm hanging in there. I'm doing all right.

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Speaker 2: Do you get achy when it gets cold outside? I

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Speaker 2: think we have talked about that. You have all kinds.

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Speaker 2: I have, like mental ailments and you have physical ailments both.

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Speaker 3: At some point, yeah, I do a little bit, you know,

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Speaker 3: but as not as much as what you would think.

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Speaker 3: You know, I, of course had the arthritis in the shoulder,

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Speaker 3: and I had to have the shoulder replacement, and I

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Speaker 3: know I have arthritis in my right elbow and my

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Speaker 3: lower back. Sometimes I can feel it a little bit achy,

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Speaker 3: you know, but I get a like a ghost pain

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Speaker 3: in my right forearm, in my right hand.

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Speaker 1: Ghost pain.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's I have nerve damage. A few years ago,

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Speaker 3: I had no idea what was going on. I thought,

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Speaker 3: you know, I was feeling some pain low down in

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Speaker 3: my right forearm near my elbow when I would put

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Speaker 3: it into certain positions, and I just thought I had

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Speaker 3: scar tissue from lifting weights in the sports over the years.

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Speaker 3: And I happened to be doing a lot of travel

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Speaker 3: for the show that I used to host called The

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Speaker 3: DNA of Murder, and I was sitting on the plane

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Speaker 3: and prior to this, I had noticed that my pinky

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Speaker 3: and index fingers on my right hand, not index, but

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Speaker 3: my ring finger. Pinky and ring finger had started to

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Speaker 3: tingle a little bit. And I thought, oh, I probably

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Speaker 3: should get that looked at, but I've got the show

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Speaker 3: that I need to do, so I just kind of

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Speaker 3: pushed it off and pushed it off. And I was

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Speaker 3: sitting on this plane. I looked out on my right

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Speaker 3: hand and it looked almost skeletal, and I was like, oh,

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Speaker 3: that's not good because now the muscles were starting to atrophy.

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Speaker 3: So I immediately went into a hand surgeon, and it

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Speaker 3: turns out that my ulnar nerve down in the elbow

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Speaker 3: was trapped, you know, the tunnel that it passed through

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Speaker 3: was too narrow, and he said, you need to have

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Speaker 3: surgery now or you could potentially, in essence, my hand

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Speaker 3: would end up turning into a claw if I didn't

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Speaker 3: get this fixed. And so we had to put the

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Speaker 3: show on hold filming the show in order for me

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Speaker 3: to have the surgery and recover. And it's rich recovered,

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Speaker 3: though I don't have full functionality in my hand. I've

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Speaker 3: lost some of the fine motor control. But obviously the

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Speaker 3: surgery was something I had to do and it's deemed successful.

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Speaker 3: But every now and then I get what I call

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Speaker 3: this ghost pain, you know, and I never had that before,

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Speaker 3: and it's just kind of a weird, weird thing. And

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Speaker 3: I've noticed recently seems to be happening more frequently.

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Speaker 2: So what does that actually mean? Is that a mental thing?

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Speaker 2: Is that what happens with ghost pain?

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Speaker 3: I'm assuming it is, because obviously, you know, I mean,

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Speaker 3: it's not like somebody who's an amputee and then they're

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Speaker 3: feeling pain where they no longer have a limb. I

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Speaker 3: still have, you know, everything, all the sensation in my hand,

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Speaker 3: and you know, all the anatomy is there, so there

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Speaker 3: potentially could be something firing that my brain is registering.

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Speaker 3: But maybe there is something that's either up in the

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Speaker 3: elbow or up in the brain that is not true

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Speaker 3: pain where it's originating at, but where I feel it

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Speaker 3: is in my hand, and it's on the kind of

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Speaker 3: the pinky side of the palm, you know, where I

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Speaker 3: initially had the tingling going on from the nerve entrapment.

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Speaker 2: So what are the fine motor things you can't do,

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Speaker 2: like if you need to screw in a tiny screw

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Speaker 2: or something or what would it be.

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Speaker 3: Kind of like that. It's not that I can't do it.

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Speaker 3: It was right after the surgery I was struggling to

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Speaker 3: do the like threading a bolt, you know, not on

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Speaker 3: a bolt, and I'm a DIY guy, you know, and

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Speaker 3: so it was very, very frustrating. But as time has

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Speaker 3: gone on, I've recovered most of that, you know, It's

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Speaker 3: just the strength is not quite there, you know. It's

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Speaker 3: it's gotten better, but it's not like it was, you know,

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Speaker 3: years ago, when I was younger and apparently still had

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Speaker 3: a fully functioning nerves into my hand.

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Speaker 2: I feel like that about my abdomen after our seat section.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I had.

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Speaker 2: Twins, and my doctor said, you know, we think a

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Speaker 2: seat section would be the way to go. And so

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Speaker 2: I said, okay, and she said. My doctor was a woman.

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Speaker 2: She said, I think you're going to find that maybe

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Speaker 2: you're not gonna your abdomen's not going to recover as well.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure that's really the case, but I do.

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Speaker 2: I will say something I didn't expect, which your story

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Speaker 2: brought up for me and I had forgotten about, is

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Speaker 2: the amount of water retention that I had from the pregnancy. Afterwards,

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Speaker 2: I had carpal tunnel in both arms and hands for

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Speaker 2: several months because of you know, I guess that is

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Speaker 2: water retention right from the pregnancy.

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Speaker 1: It was awful.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't bring my hands up. The girls had to

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Speaker 2: go on to do formula, and I couldn't feed both

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Speaker 2: of them at the same time because it was so

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Speaker 2: painful to just put my hand up, you know, so

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Speaker 2: my elbow was pointed. It was the worst pain I've

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Speaker 2: ever been through for several months until we finally ended

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Speaker 2: up doing like a lot of massaging and and you know, eventually,

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Speaker 2: you know, everything went down, but it was awful. So

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Speaker 2: I can't imagine having that kind of pain.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's the first I've heard of like a I

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Speaker 3: guess you'd call it pregnancy induced carpal tunnel. Yeah, type

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Speaker 3: of syndrome. You usually it's you know, you're it's because

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Speaker 3: you've been sitting at the computer and you have things

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Speaker 3: pressing against your wrist and all the repetitive motions. So

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Speaker 3: but that at least was temporary and then you have

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Speaker 3: no long term effects from that. Okay, good.

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Speaker 2: My pregnancy was fairly I guess, uneventful for twins. I

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Speaker 2: mean I carried them to thirty five weeks, which my

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Speaker 2: doctor was very pleased with. I taught up until five

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Speaker 2: days before my water broke. I felt sick every single

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Speaker 2: day my pregnancy, and my mom just kept saying, this

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Speaker 2: is a tiny little sliver in your life.

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Speaker 1: It'll be okay. But it was.

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Speaker 2: It was pretty miserable. But my blood pressure was great.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I you know, it was very.

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Speaker 1: Healthy, but oh boy, that was a bad after effect

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Speaker 1: for me.

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Speaker 2: But anyway, I I I'm glad that you have been

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Speaker 2: on the mend. But this ghost pain makes me a

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Speaker 2: little every once in a while almost feel them kicking,

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Speaker 2: the girls kicking, and it freaks me out every single time.

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Speaker 2: It freaks me out.

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Speaker 1: And you know it's probably indigestion or something.

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Speaker 2: It's nothing, but it definitely brings you back to going, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 2: that was what that was like.

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Speaker 3: Sure, I couldn't even imagine obviously, No.

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Speaker 2: Boy, Well, let's get into this story, because this is

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Speaker 2: a two parter. It's a humdinger, as I would say,

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Speaker 2: it's a pretty big story. And you know, when we

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Speaker 2: get into this, it to me is what is a

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Speaker 2: circumstantial case? And I know that we have circumstantial cases

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Speaker 2: because of where we are in history. We have a

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Speaker 2: lot of stuff that is not available to the investigators

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Speaker 2: when we're talking about whatever error we're talking about versus

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Speaker 2: what we have now. So I know, you do an

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Speaker 2: awful lot of well today, this is what we'd be

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Speaker 2: able to do. So I think we probably need a

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Speaker 2: good deal of today this is what we'd be able

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Speaker 2: to do.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I think.

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Speaker 2: That there had to be a lot of settling, unfortunately

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Speaker 2: with prosecutors and investigators in the eighteen hundreds because they

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Speaker 2: just didn't have the rock solid evidence. And I think

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Speaker 2: sometimes there are miscarriages of justice because of that. And

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Speaker 2: I know you're frustrated sometimes because I don't have enough

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Speaker 2: information for you.

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Speaker 1: But it's interesting to see how far we've come with

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Speaker 1: these stories.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, and I would say that still continues

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Speaker 3: on today because you know, believe it or not. When

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Speaker 3: we have let's say, major cases, let's say a homicide case.

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Speaker 3: I couldn't say percentages off the top of my head,

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Speaker 3: but it's not like in every single major case that

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Speaker 3: we have physical evidence, and so they are circumstantial, and

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Speaker 3: there is concern in terms of, well, how much weight

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Speaker 3: can you truly put on the circumstance, you know, how

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Speaker 3: strong an association is this circumstance to indicate that the

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Speaker 3: defendant is responsible for the crime. And I know, as

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Speaker 3: I've been on the investigative side and have evaluated suspects

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Speaker 3: and the circumstances as why they are a suspect, only

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Speaker 3: to think, oh my god, this has got to be

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Speaker 3: the guy, and then to have the physical evidence eliminate him. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I have truly grown to understand that coincidences do happen.

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Speaker 3: And you'll hear old time homicide guys say, I don't

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Speaker 3: believe in coincidences, Well, you better, because I've seen it

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Speaker 3: and it's real. Prosecutors need to understand that, because it's real,

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Speaker 3: because there to this day can be miscarriages of justice

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Speaker 3: due to our inability as humans to truly evaluate this

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Speaker 3: circumstance and what it means. Is it a coincidence or

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Speaker 3: does it mean involvement.

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Speaker 2: When I was doing research for Oscar Heinrich for the

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Speaker 2: book for American Sherlock, there was an article where the

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Speaker 2: reporter said, I think, you know, in very differential terms,

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Speaker 2: Heinrich has sent his evidence, has sent six men to

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Speaker 2: the gallows in one year, And I just thought, oh gosh,

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Speaker 2: from what I know about forensics then and now, I

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Speaker 2: would bet a third of those guys probably didn't belong there.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know. Just because the man closed

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Speaker 2: more than a thousand cases doesn't mean he did not

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Speaker 2: have a hand in wrongfully convicting and wrongfully executing a

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Speaker 2: good portion of people. And that's what's scary to me

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Speaker 2: than and now.

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Speaker 3: Well and even for me, you know, that's my biggest fears.

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Speaker 3: Have I formed an opinion and testified, and that helps

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Speaker 3: sway a jury to convict somebody who's innocent. You know,

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Speaker 3: I would be devastated if sometime down course of my

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Speaker 3: life I find out that something like that has happened.

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Speaker 3: That's where as an expert truly understanding what the the

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Speaker 3: science is, what your expertise is, the limitations, and ensuring

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Speaker 3: that all of that is presented openly and fairly without

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Speaker 3: bias in court. And that is fundamental to being a

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Speaker 3: forensic expert. No matter what discipline, you have to be

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Speaker 3: able to understand the strengths and the limitations of your

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Speaker 3: opinion and convey that in an articulate and accurate manner

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Speaker 3: in the courtroom, so the jury understands what you're saying

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Speaker 3: and how much weight to put on that.

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Speaker 2: Well, in this case, we have a whole lot of

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Speaker 2: circumstances and not as much forensics hard evidence.

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Speaker 1: So we will see what you say.

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Speaker 2: One of the things that I like about the way

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Speaker 2: you approach this show is you, even when we're talking

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Speaker 2: about people from the sixteen hundreds, still are uncomfortable speculating

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Speaker 2: too much.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I think Levi Weeks killed, you know, the woman

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Speaker 1: in the well.

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Speaker 2: I mean you really can come close and say yeah,

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Speaker 2: evidence does point strongly, but I would need DNA or

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Speaker 2: something which is never going to happen, so you always

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Speaker 2: have an out there with Levi Weeks and his family.

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Speaker 2: But I think you really what you just said holds

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Speaker 2: true for the way you handle the podcast, which is

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Speaker 2: you really don't say definitely, this is what was happening,

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Speaker 2: and I could have proved it even in eighteen seventy

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Speaker 2: and I think that's.

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Speaker 3: Great, that's just experience.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's see what your experience says about the case

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Speaker 2: of Ellen Lucas. Let's go ahead and set the scene.

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Speaker 2: The best time period, I know, I say that all

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Speaker 2: the time, but eighteen seventies around New York City love

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Speaker 2: this time period.

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Speaker 3: Is this the Gilded Age? By chance?

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Speaker 1: It's right on the edge.

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Speaker 2: Really gilded Age for me is like eighteen nineties Boss Tweed,

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Speaker 2: people with you know, diamond hufflinks and ten thousand dollars

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Speaker 2: bills under plates of caviaar.

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Speaker 1: That was a thing, and that really was you.

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Speaker 2: Know, eighteen eighties, eighteen nineties, nineteen hundred's New York. So

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Speaker 2: this is in the cusp of that. But these are

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Speaker 2: not those people, for sure. I love the time period,

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Speaker 2: and this is where I do need some really good

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Speaker 2: expertise on what is possible to prove and what isn't.

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Speaker 2: So we're not in New York. We're in Bridgeports, Connecticut.

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Speaker 2: Love Connecticut one of my favorite states, Love it, and

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Speaker 2: it's very close to New York. And in the eighteen

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Speaker 2: seventies it was burgeoning. So there are factories that are

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Speaker 2: churning out all of these products like carriages and sewing

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Speaker 2: machines and ammunition, brass goods. Lots of job opportunities in manufacturing.

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Speaker 2: There are a lot of of course, working class people,

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Speaker 2: skilled laborers coming in from the countryside, and a lot

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Speaker 2: of immigrants moving here. That is just to set the

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Speaker 2: scene as we get into the story. I do like

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Speaker 2: to issue warnings here. There is a discussion that we'll

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Speaker 2: have to get into about murder versus suicide. So just

257
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Speaker 2: a quick trigger warning here about suicide going into this.

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Speaker 2: So this is going to sound kind of familiar to

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Speaker 2: you once we get going. This is eighteen seventy four

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Speaker 2: October tewod in Connecticut. It's an eighteen year old woman

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Speaker 2: as our focus. Her name is Ellen Lucas. She's having

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Speaker 2: dinner at home with her mom and she is very,

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Speaker 2: very excited because she is getting married tomorrow. And she

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Speaker 2: has a fiance who is twenty six and his name

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Speaker 2: is James Latin, and they have an appointment in New Haven, Connecticut.

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Speaker 2: They're kind of eloping, but with everybody knowing about it,

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Speaker 2: this is not some huge shindig. It sounds like this

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Speaker 2: is a you know, we're going to go have a

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Speaker 2: small wedding, but everybody knows about it. Nobody is shocked

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Speaker 2: by this. Now, we had another case that I brought

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Speaker 2: up before, which was the woman in the well in

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Speaker 2: the Manhattan Well, very similar sounding circumstances. You remember Elma Sands,

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Speaker 2: she goes downstairs, she thinks she's eloping, She ends up

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Speaker 2: dead in a well, and Levi weeks her. He denies fiance,

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Speaker 2: but you know, he is the one that goes on

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Speaker 2: trial and ultimately becomes acquitted because his brother is very

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Speaker 2: famous and has a lot of money. So it was

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Speaker 2: very deja vous for me reading the research on this

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Speaker 2: and then reading up on it, you know, independently, because

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Speaker 2: it felt very similar. A woman the night before or

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Speaker 2: the night of her big day, running down the stairs

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Speaker 2: saying goodbye to people, and you know, as we know

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Speaker 2: where this is going to had she has never seen

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Speaker 2: after that eventually she will be found, but she was

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Speaker 2: not seen alive after that.

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Speaker 1: What is it about people getting married?

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Speaker 2: Is this just a big event that is something that

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Speaker 2: freaks people out? What has put these two women in danger?

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Speaker 2: Fifty years apart?

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Speaker 3: At least in cases that I've been exposed to, I

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Speaker 3: can't say that I've seen any type of pattern like this,

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Speaker 3: you know, So I could only speculate in terms of,

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Speaker 3: you know, why is there something going on? Are they

294
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Speaker 3: just not attentive to their surroundings, you know, and inadvertently

295
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Speaker 3: put themselves in risk? Are they not paying attention to

296
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Speaker 3: let's say, if you're talking about, like with the Levi weeks,

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Speaker 3: you know, the relationship that there are some red flags

298
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Speaker 3: and the relationship that may be elevated the victim's risk.

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Speaker 3: You know, they're in love. They're kind of saying, oh,

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Speaker 3: you know, he'll get over that type of behavior if

301
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Speaker 3: he's abusive, and they ignore it, and then of course

302
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Speaker 3: it escalates. So I don't know, you know, I think

303
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Speaker 3: it'll be interesting to hear about the circumstances regarding Ellen.

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Speaker 2: So around seven o'clock, Ellen throws on a shawl and

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Speaker 2: a bonnet and she leaves her parents' house. She tells

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Speaker 2: her mother that she's going to step out, but she'll

307
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Speaker 2: be back soon. Doesn't really give her an explanation about

308
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Speaker 2: where she's going or who she's meeting, but everybody knows

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Speaker 2: she's getting married the next day.

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Speaker 1: There are some.

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Speaker 2: Contradictions, as I am very used to with eighteen hundred's

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Speaker 2: newspaper reporting. One of the newspapers said that witnesses said

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Speaker 2: that Ellen seemed nervous.

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Speaker 1: Before she leaves the house.

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Speaker 2: But there's a different newspaper reporter that said he talked

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Speaker 2: to people that said she was in good spirits.

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Speaker 1: It could have been both.

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Speaker 2: Right before your wedding, you could be swinging through all

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Speaker 2: kinds of emotions.

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Speaker 3: And this is just where it's also so subjective, right, Yeah, No,

321
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Speaker 3: somebody could be looking at Ellen's mannerisms, the way she's

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Speaker 3: talking and concludes she seems nervous, and somebody else could

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Speaker 3: go she seems like normal. This is how Ellen is,

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Speaker 3: you know. So I wouldn't put a whole heck of

325
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Speaker 3: a lot of weight done on how these witnesses were

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Speaker 3: describing her manner prior to her going missing.

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Speaker 2: Well, the mother, missus Lucas, finds out why she's left

328
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Speaker 2: it looks like she's approaching James on the nearby corner

329
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Speaker 2: her fiance. There are a couple of people who saw

330
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Speaker 2: them together. Witnesses say they it looked like they were

331
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Speaker 2: having a serious discussion. Not a bad discussion, but kind

332
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Speaker 2: of you know, let's talk about the wedding tomorrow discussions,

333
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Speaker 2: but we don't have enough information about that yet. Missus Lucas,

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Speaker 2: I think is nervous in general, and I'll kind of

335
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Speaker 2: tell you why. James is an interesting character. He was

336
00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:17,840
Speaker 2: employed by a local meet market, but he didn't have

337
00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:21,480
Speaker 2: a great reputation in the community. He was engaged to

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Speaker 2: Ellen publicly, but he had already been married and divorced,

339
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Speaker 2: which was not so great in eighteen seventies. Of course

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Speaker 2: that doesn't mean anything now, but that was certainly frowned

341
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Speaker 2: upon after his first marriage ended. James then kind of

342
00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:38,359
Speaker 2: went on to make a bunch of questionable life decisions,

343
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Speaker 2: and he was eventually arrested on theft charges and he

344
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Speaker 2: served a little bit of prison time as a result.

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Speaker 1: Nothing violent, though.

346
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Speaker 2: So you know, if we know that Ellen's about to

347
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Speaker 2: go missing, James having theft charges against him right now

348
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Speaker 2: should not be held against him.

349
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Speaker 1: I'm assuming no.

350
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Speaker 3: If he ends up being a suspect in this case,

351
00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:00,520
Speaker 3: of course, you know, his past is something that has

352
00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,760
Speaker 3: to be evaluated. If there is a history of violence,

353
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Speaker 3: then there's something there that at least shows capability. But

354
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:13,000
Speaker 3: no history of islends doesn't mean that somebody is not

355
00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,960
Speaker 3: capable of committing a violent act. It's just they haven't

356
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,720
Speaker 3: been caught or they haven't done it up until this

357
00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:21,080
Speaker 3: point and time in their life.

358
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and James really is a mysterious character. He came

359
00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:27,760
Speaker 2: out of prison during that little stint, and this was

360
00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:31,639
Speaker 2: before he knew Ellen, and he became immediately engaged to

361
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Speaker 2: a different woman. She ends up dying in what the

362
00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:38,960
Speaker 2: newspapers describe as a mysterious manner. Of course, we don't

363
00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:42,120
Speaker 2: have any more information about that. It's a rumor. It's

364
00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:45,119
Speaker 2: right before the wedding day. And let's keep in mind

365
00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:49,919
Speaker 2: that this is reported after Ellen Lucas has gone missing

366
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Speaker 2: and right before her wedding day.

367
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Speaker 1: So all I can.

368
00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:57,399
Speaker 2: Say is that there is this death floating around that

369
00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:02,240
Speaker 2: eighteen hundred's reporters said was mysterious. But nothing came of

370
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:06,879
Speaker 2: this first death, nothing at all. So again interesting but

371
00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,560
Speaker 2: not really relevant at this point. If he even becomes

372
00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:11,480
Speaker 2: a suspect.

373
00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:16,760
Speaker 3: How long ago before Ellen's disappearance did this other woman die?

374
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:18,440
Speaker 1: Sounds like a few years ago.

375
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Speaker 3: And just to clarify, this is a woman that was

376
00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:24,439
Speaker 3: at the time engaged to the same James and they

377
00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,040
Speaker 3: were going to get married the next day, and she

378
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,800
Speaker 3: dies under mysterious circumstances shortly before the wedding.

379
00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:35,240
Speaker 2: We don't know how long before. What confuses me is

380
00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:38,760
Speaker 2: because we've done so many life insurance stories. I kept thinking,

381
00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:41,359
Speaker 2: why doesn't he just wait to marry these people? But

382
00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:44,440
Speaker 2: I also have to confess I'm not quite sure how

383
00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:46,640
Speaker 2: that would have worked in the eighteen seventies. I mean,

384
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:50,240
Speaker 2: he would have had possession of everything, But I'm also

385
00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:55,080
Speaker 2: thinking as craven, money hungry person, not as someone with

386
00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:59,040
Speaker 2: a bad temper, which James could have and gets set

387
00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:01,240
Speaker 2: off pretty easily at his fiance.

388
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:02,159
Speaker 1: But I don't know.

389
00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:06,680
Speaker 3: I'm just going to table this previous death to style

390
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,040
Speaker 3: that for maybe bringing it out in the future and

391
00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:12,160
Speaker 3: see if it really has any relevance to Ellen's disappearance.

392
00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,120
Speaker 2: James is not a popular person. I've already said that

393
00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:17,600
Speaker 2: nothing against people who work in local meat markets. It

394
00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,040
Speaker 2: sounds like he's great, he even had a job, considering

395
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,960
Speaker 2: he was in prison. But Ellen's father does not think

396
00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,840
Speaker 2: his eighteen year old, very attractive daughter should marry this man.

397
00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:31,680
Speaker 2: He's not good enough for her. He had strenuously opposed

398
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,280
Speaker 2: the match eighteen hundred s terms for you're not marrying

399
00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:39,480
Speaker 2: my daughter, forget it. But Ellen Dugar heels in and said,

400
00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:42,480
Speaker 2: I'm marrying him, and if you want to be involved

401
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:44,959
Speaker 2: in my life, you're going to accept it. And so

402
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,320
Speaker 2: they ultimately okayed the plans for them to be married.

403
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,040
Speaker 2: And this is something that we see over and over again.

404
00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:54,160
Speaker 2: Edward Ruloff in my book, the same thing happened.

405
00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:55,679
Speaker 1: You know, you have these men.

406
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,679
Speaker 2: Who have gotten their claws into the women and the

407
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:01,760
Speaker 2: women and just say I'm walking away from you all

408
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:04,280
Speaker 2: if you don't accept them, and then bad things happen.

409
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,920
Speaker 2: And I'm assuming you've seen this, you know, in your

410
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:07,440
Speaker 2: work too.

411
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:12,719
Speaker 3: This is a very common scenario where two people that

412
00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:16,480
Speaker 3: are in a relationship, you're often blinded by love, right,

413
00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:22,399
Speaker 3: whereas the family or friends who don't have that cognitive

414
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:26,320
Speaker 3: bias about the person is seeing, hold on, we don't

415
00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,960
Speaker 3: think this is a good match. We see some issues

416
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,320
Speaker 3: the red flags, But they talk to their loved one

417
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,640
Speaker 3: or their friend, and the friend is so smitten by

418
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,000
Speaker 3: this other person that it's like, no, or I'll change him.

419
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:42,879
Speaker 3: You know, I so love him, I'll change him. This

420
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,320
Speaker 3: is common today and it sounds like, I mean, human

421
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,200
Speaker 3: nature hasn't changed, it was what's happening here?

422
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,119
Speaker 2: Have you dealt with families in those kinds of cases

423
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:57,119
Speaker 2: that just say I wish I had done something hindsight?

424
00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:59,560
Speaker 2: What do you do in this circumstance if you feel

425
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:02,160
Speaker 2: like in your this is not a good person who

426
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:06,640
Speaker 2: is potentially violent. But Ellen is an adult, she's eighteen.

427
00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:11,119
Speaker 3: I mean, family, do regret not interceding more when all

428
00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:13,200
Speaker 3: of a sudden they've lost a loved one or loved

429
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:17,159
Speaker 3: one ended up in an abusive relationship. Of course, you

430
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,399
Speaker 3: know the family is going well. I did talk to her,

431
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:24,399
Speaker 3: but you know, there's only so much and she didn't

432
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,440
Speaker 3: want to listen, you know, and there's just they will

433
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:31,720
Speaker 3: have after the fact, of course, you know, frustration and

434
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,920
Speaker 3: regret that they didn't do more. But the reality is

435
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,159
Speaker 3: is they really can't in most circumstances.

436
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:42,520
Speaker 2: Well as much as a jerk as James seems. Right now,

437
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 2: we don't know what's happened with Ellen, and I'm not

438
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,480
Speaker 2: ready to convict him on anything until we get some

439
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,600
Speaker 2: more circumstances here, because we are going to get down

440
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:56,040
Speaker 2: to nineteenth century police work and circumstantial evidence, and there's

441
00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 2: a lot to discuss, I think. So just to catch

442
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,919
Speaker 2: us up, Ellen has left. She is seen through the

443
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,399
Speaker 2: window by her mom talking to James. They're having a

444
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,640
Speaker 2: serious conversation, but not something that seems like an argument.

445
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 2: Then Ellen doesn't come home. Her mom's expecting her home.

446
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 2: She never comes home, and early the next morning, which

447
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,879
Speaker 2: is the couple's wedding day, a group of Ellen's friends

448
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 2: and family set out to look for her. So that's

449
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,680
Speaker 2: how much they don't trust James, and that's how much

450
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 2: they're worried about Ellen, because it would have been unusual

451
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,360
Speaker 2: for her to not come back home, according to her family.

452
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,479
Speaker 2: So they go out and they do a big search,

453
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,960
Speaker 2: but they don't find her. Initially, they go to James

454
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,479
Speaker 2: and he said, I have no idea what you're talking about.

455
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,160
Speaker 2: I haven't seen her. I'm expecting to marry her. What's

456
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:44,640
Speaker 2: going on?

457
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:45,399
Speaker 1: You know?

458
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 2: This is already kind of an alarming situation with this

459
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,879
Speaker 2: unwonted wedding, and now you've got a woman who's gone missing,

460
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:54,440
Speaker 2: and it's concerning.

461
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 3: He's seen talking to Ellen. Is he's saying, yeah, we

462
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 3: finished the conversation and she wi off in that direction.

463
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 3: Is that that's the typical type of response that you get.

464
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 2: At first, he denies that anybody knows what they're talking about.

465
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:09,640
Speaker 2: You never saw me with her, And then he says, okay,

466
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 2: I was with her very briefly. But then he has

467
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 2: an alibi that takes him out to see and it's confirmed.

468
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 2: But we've got quite a few family members on both

469
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 2: sides who I'm not quite sure we believe what people

470
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 2: are saying because they're so entrenched in this story because

471
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 2: it's involving a family member. But as of right now,

472
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:31,880
Speaker 2: he's saying, I don't know where she is. I saw

473
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 2: her briefly and that was it. So I'll help you look,

474
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 2: but I don't know what's going on.

475
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,880
Speaker 3: Well, and let's let's talk about you say he has

476
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,919
Speaker 3: an alibi. Well, right now, at this point, Ellen hasn't

477
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 3: been found. We don't know what has happened to Ellen. Correct,

478
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,680
Speaker 3: And so let's say let's assume she's been killed. Well,

479
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:55,439
Speaker 3: we need to know. Okay, when, where, what time you

480
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:59,639
Speaker 3: know this happened. Now we can start looking at what

481
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 3: Jane Jeames is saying his whereabouts were to determine if

482
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 3: there's an alibi. But there's no way James can have

483
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 3: an alibi at this point, before Ellen's body.

484
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 2: Is found, Well, then I'll jump into it and say

485
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 2: her body is found not long after the family and

486
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 2: friends come back from their search. I mean they just

487
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 2: left early the next morning. No luck that came back

488
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 2: around seven o'clock, so this is twelve hours after she disappeared.

489
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 2: There were two men who were not connected with the

490
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:30,959
Speaker 2: search party at all, who just stumbled across her. So

491
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:35,159
Speaker 2: this is where circumstances are interesting. They find her body

492
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 2: laying face down in a remote stream that's known as

493
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 2: the Cedars. The reporters describe it as very lonely, entirely

494
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 2: concealed from the road, and fairly close by to Ellen's house.

495
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 2: We don't know an exact distance. I have the crappiest

496
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 2: of sketches to show you about what this place looked like,

497
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:57,920
Speaker 2: and I don't know if it's going to be helpful,

498
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 2: but she has found face down in and I have

499
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 2: more information about injuries.

500
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:04,879
Speaker 3: And you said, this was seven am in the morning

501
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 3: when these two men found her. Yep, okay, and fully clothed,

502
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:09,400
Speaker 3: fully clothed.

503
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 2: So initially they think, I have no idea why that

504
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 2: she perhaps died by suicide, And I don't know why

505
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,120
Speaker 2: they jumped to that except for maybe the life circumstances,

506
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,199
Speaker 2: or maybe they theorized that once they found out from

507
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,879
Speaker 2: the family that she was supposed to get married, and

508
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,360
Speaker 2: maybe you know, they hadn't talked to the fiance, and

509
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 2: they just thought that she went to this remote area

510
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 2: and took her own life via drowning, which doesn't make

511
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,399
Speaker 2: any sense to me, except and this gives you actually

512
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 2: a little bit of information. The water that Ellen was

513
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 2: found in was so shallow, it was only two or

514
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 2: four inches deep. There was a newspaper reporter who said

515
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:55,399
Speaker 2: it would have required more fortitude than the delicate girl

516
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,879
Speaker 2: was likely to possess to enable her to hold the

517
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 2: face beneath the surface of the water until life was extinct.

518
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 2: There's a lot to unpack there. Can you take your

519
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 2: own life like that?

520
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:12,400
Speaker 3: Absolutely? You know? Okay, Yeah, of course autopsy is going

521
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:17,399
Speaker 3: to be pivotal in terms of what those observations are.

522
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 3: But you know, at this point, I'm assuming it's law

523
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 3: enforcement that is thinking, Okay, she's died by suicide. Now,

524
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 3: this idea that she couldn't have had the fortitude in

525
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 3: order to be able to keep her face under two

526
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 3: to four inches of water in this I'm assuming there's

527
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 3: muck underneath that. You know, if somebody is really committed,

528
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 3: they absolutely will have the fortitude in order to do

529
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 3: something like this. There's all sorts of people who have

530
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 3: died by suicide under very bizarre and extreme circumstances. Some

531
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 3: of the strangest crime scene or death scenes that I've

532
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 3: been to have been people who have died by suicide.

533
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 3: So it would not be anything. I would not sit

534
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 3: there and look at this type of scenario and say, well,

535
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 3: there's no way that she died by suicide just because

536
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 3: I don't think she had the fortitude in order to

537
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 3: pull it off under these set of circumstances. I would

538
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 3: eliminate that as an argument straight off the bat.

539
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 1: So what are they saying.

540
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 2: They're saying fortitude do they mean physical or like she

541
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 2: was physically incapable of keeping her face down inhaling or

542
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 2: whatever enough water at two to four inches or are

543
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 2: they saying that she I mean, what are they saying.

544
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 2: I don't even understand what the fortitude part is.

545
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 3: I think they're saying that two to four inches of water,

546
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 3: with the mucky bottom of this creek, that they're of

547
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 3: the opinion that if she puts her face in this

548
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 3: water and starts to panic, can't breathe, that she's going

549
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 3: to be pushing herself up out of this water. They're

550
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 3: failing to take into account. There's a drowning possibility, but

551
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 3: there's also the initial asphyxia. We're talking ten seconds, okay,

552
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 3: and you could be she could be unconscious, face down

553
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 3: in water. This is what happens when people go unconscious

554
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 3: that say, they overdose while they're in a bathtub, and

555
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 3: now they slip underneath the water, and within ten fifteen seconds,

556
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 3: the lack of oxygen, they're not going to recover from that.

557
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,479
Speaker 3: This is what could be happening here. Now. I of

558
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 3: course know that it's probably likely not that she died

559
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 3: by suicide in this scenario, but right now I would

560
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 3: say it's absolutely possible for her. Within a matter of

561
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 3: a few seconds, she could have slipped, She could have

562
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 3: gone unconscious with her face still in the water. And

563
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 3: now if she's still breathing, now you're starting to get

564
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 3: the water going into the trachea, You're now going to

565
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 3: be able to see that she was still she still

566
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 3: was breathing and was taking the water into her lungs.

567
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 2: Well, let's continue on. Let me show you the sketch,

568
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 2: which I always say they're not going to be helpful,

569
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 2: but you might think so. You see this sketch at

570
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 2: the bottom, it looks like that's where her body is,

571
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 2: but they say the body as it was found in

572
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 2: a ravine near Berkshire Pond.

573
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 3: Yeah. So I'm looking at the sketch and it is

574
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 3: actually quite an amazing hand drawing, which shows Ellen laying

575
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 3: face down with her clothes head to the left of

576
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 3: the photo feet towards the right. I'm surprised at the

577
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 3: amount of trees, large trees in the backdrop, as well

578
00:31:55,680 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 3: as this wooden fence that looks like it's disrepair that

579
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 3: is in the in the background. It's kind of hard

580
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 3: to see where the artist in this sketch is showing

581
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 3: the stream. But what I think what is notable is

582
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 3: the I can see her face in this sketch. It's

583
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 3: not like her face is buried in the creek bed

584
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 3: it is. If it's not, it doesn't even look like

585
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 3: it's submerged under the water. In this sketch, her hands

586
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 3: are outstretched at least her right arm is stretched out

587
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 3: a little bit above her head. Her left arm is

588
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 3: close to her face, her feet. You know it's she's

589
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 3: not curled up in a fetal position. She's just somewhat

590
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 3: looks like somebody who could have easily have fallen and

591
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 3: landed in this position.

592
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:48,959
Speaker 1: I don't know who drew this.

593
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 2: I don't know if this was a reporter or some

594
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 2: of the one of the investigators. This is very nice,

595
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 2: so I don't I don't think this was an investigator.

596
00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 2: And you know, you and I have done stories where

597
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 2: I show you photos like the Remember the Whole the

598
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 2: one with the whole family killed by the son in law,

599
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 2: and it's clear the police photos, in the police photos

600
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 2: that they've already moved the body and covered them up

601
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 2: and stacked them together and all that. So I don't

602
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 2: know where we are with this. I did wonder if

603
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 2: you look to the right, if that's a stream that's

604
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 2: kind of coming down the hill and it's wrapping around.

605
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 2: It's just such a beautiful drawing that it actually kind

606
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 2: of there's too much detail in some place for us

607
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 2: to figure out what's actually happening.

608
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I see that that's stream. That's what I

609
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 3: thought that was too And and to your point, you know,

610
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 3: this sketch would have taken a fair amount of time

611
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 3: to do. I doubt you have this artist standing there

612
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 3: at this death scene and sketching this entire thing as

613
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:53,719
Speaker 3: accurately as possible. My suspicion is is this sketch was

614
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 3: done probably from memory, and we don't know at what

615
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 3: point after her body was found, had she been moved?

616
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 3: You know, what kind of disruption to the scene there

617
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 3: is with the details here, you know, So it's it's

618
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:08,920
Speaker 3: not something that I would put a lot of voracity

619
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 3: into in terms of this is an accurate representation of

620
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 3: how Ellen's body was found? Are there any indications? You know,

621
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:21,319
Speaker 3: part of the crime scene processing early on, once they

622
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,880
Speaker 3: find this dead body, of course, is going to be

623
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 3: looking for well, what evidence is here of somebody else

624
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 3: being present? You know? Was she carried and dropped here?

625
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 3: Did it look like she walked into this location? So

626
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:35,800
Speaker 3: I don't know if you have that kind of information.

627
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 3: But that's part of the documentation that helps somebody like

628
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 3: me to reconstruct. Okay, this is what is going on,

629
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 3: you know, the ingress aspect of the offender and the victim.

630
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 3: What happened at this particular location of the victim, and

631
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 3: then how did the offender leave if this is if

632
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 3: this is a homicide case.

633
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: Well, and actually this brings up an interesting point.

634
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 2: You know, we know when when you talk to witnesses,

635
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:03,319
Speaker 2: everybody has their own point of view, Everyone has their

636
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 2: own slant. You know, you just said what the perspective?

637
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:08,359
Speaker 2: I mean, who knows what the artist did here? How

638
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 2: many liberties they took? This is all somebody's perspective and

639
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 2: point of view. But with investigators, like what I want

640
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 2: to know from the eighteen seventies is how much do

641
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 2: they know what they're talking about? Because I will tell

642
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 2: you that we do have some physical injuries that might

643
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 2: not have been caused by someone.

644
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:27,840
Speaker 1: We'll have to see.

645
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 2: But they do say that they found evidence of a struggle,

646
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 2: and they said that, So this is the first thing

647
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 2: I'll say, there's clear evidence of a struggle in the

648
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 2: environment around the stream. The reporter says that for many

649
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 2: yards along the bank of the grass and the earth

650
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 2: were trodden down, and it was apparent that the victim

651
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 2: had struggled for her life with all the energy of desperation.

652
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:53,319
Speaker 1: How can you.

653
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,800
Speaker 2: Prove that that's what I mean? I mean, they're saying

654
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 2: for sure there was a struggle, and I'm just thinking,

655
00:35:58,200 --> 00:35:59,359
Speaker 2: what if there was a cow there?

656
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:04,320
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't, Well, there actually can be evidence

657
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 3: where you can conclude, yes, peers, the victim did struggle.

658
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 3: And this is not only within the environment, but on

659
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 3: the victim herself, whether it be her clothing, whether it

660
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 3: be injuries to her body. But let's say we talk

661
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 3: about the environment. It's okay, this possibly is somewhat of

662
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 3: a because we have a creek bed, we have plants.

663
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 3: You know, you can start to see if you just

664
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:33,319
Speaker 3: expect people who just walk in and walk out of

665
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 3: this location common sense, you know, how much of the

666
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 3: plants would be disrupted. Now, if you are seeing a

667
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 3: fair amount of disruption to the plants as well as

668
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 3: shoe impressions, sliding shoe impressions, she's muddy, her feet or

669
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 3: her shoes are muddy. She's got grass stains, as you know,

670
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 3: she's struggling. Maybe the offenders on top of her and

671
00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 3: they're laying down on this plant material. Of course, defensive injuries,

672
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 3: you know, does she have bruises like she's being grabbed

673
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 3: hard or scratches. All of this is combined to start

674
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 3: to reconstruct. Yes, it appears that the victim was aware

675
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 3: she was being attacked, and in this environment there is

676
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:23,879
Speaker 3: combat between two individuals at least.

677
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 2: So the investigators look at her body and they discover

678
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 2: what they say are marks on her wrists, which they

679
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:39,320
Speaker 2: describe as clearly somebody grabbing her and dragging her along

680
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 2: and that this is I think odd. She's wearing a

681
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:47,400
Speaker 2: bonnet and they're saying that she still has her bonnet on,

682
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 2: but the back has been crushed in. And the reporter

683
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:55,360
Speaker 2: who's describing this scene says that there are thumb and

684
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,439
Speaker 2: finger markings that have been left on the bonnet near

685
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:02,840
Speaker 2: this crushed area, and that the insinuation here is that

686
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,360
Speaker 2: somebody grabbed the back of her head through the bonnet

687
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 2: and held her underwater, and they had been holding her

688
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 2: arms in this disrupted area to get her down and

689
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,359
Speaker 2: then shove her down. Does that make sense to you

690
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 2: or is that too much kind of speculation on their part,

691
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,280
Speaker 2: and they're getting this from the police. It's not reporters

692
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 2: standing there. They're getting these details.

693
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:26,319
Speaker 3: I think that really just depends on what their observations are.

694
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:30,399
Speaker 3: The grabbing around the wrists. You know, of course, when

695
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:32,320
Speaker 3: you first said there was marks aroun a wrist, in

696
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 3: my mind immediately went to binding. You know, is there

697
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 3: a possibility she had been bound? But it sounds like

698
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 3: what they are observing is the broad types of marks

699
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 3: the skin and potential bruising from being held hard, and

700
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 3: that you can conclude that it rarely is very distinct

701
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,319
Speaker 3: where you're seeing individual finger marks and thumb marks, but

702
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 3: you do see marks where you go, yeah, that looks

703
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 3: like a hand has grabbed hard around the wrist. Now

704
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 3: is this occurring while she's upright or is this occurring

705
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 3: as they're trying to move the body? You know that

706
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 3: I don't know. With the description the bonnet with the

707
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:16,320
Speaker 3: finger and thumb marks on the bonnet, I'm not entirely

708
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 3: sure what they would be looking at. I'd have to

709
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 3: see the bonnet. That sounds like this is somewhat of

710
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:21,719
Speaker 3: a hard surface.

711
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 2: Well it could be, because I mean it's October, it's

712
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,359
Speaker 2: not cold, it's cooler. It could have been a more

713
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,759
Speaker 2: rigid bonnet, but it also could be just part of

714
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 2: the bonnet was pushed in, And they're making some pretty

715
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:39,360
Speaker 2: big speculation here. And also, you know, this report was

716
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 2: probably written after some of the autopsy stuff came out.

717
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 2: So again that's what happens sometimes with reporters is you're

718
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:48,880
Speaker 2: kind of backtracking and making the evidence fit what is

719
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 2: in the autopsy versus kind of evaluating it independently and saying, okay,

720
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 2: what makes sense because it still sounds like suicide could

721
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 2: be on the table.

722
00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 3: Right well, and this is also where you know, when

723
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:04,840
Speaker 3: photography became available, that was a huge advance in terms

724
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 3: of documentation because now an investigator, you get the autopsy report,

725
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 3: you forget the pathologist's findings. Now I could correlate the

726
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,879
Speaker 3: findings from the autopsy to what I can see at

727
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 3: the crime scene in its original state. And so like

728
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:24,359
Speaker 3: this bonnet, you know, was it crushed in as they said,

729
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:26,840
Speaker 3: at the crime scene when her body was first found,

730
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 3: or was it crushed during the collection process or in

731
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 3: the transportation of the body to the morgue. How was

732
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 3: this bondet treated you? So I would be going back

733
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 3: to these photos in order to verify. Yeah, it looks

734
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:42,959
Speaker 3: like I have an offender grabbing this bonnet. That makes

735
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 3: sense based off the autopsy results, But absent those crime

736
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 3: scene photos back in the eighteen seventies, how do I

737
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:55,760
Speaker 3: substantiate that type of observation. Now we're talking about people

738
00:40:55,800 --> 00:41:00,160
Speaker 3: having to rely on their memory, because I doubt you've

739
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:05,280
Speaker 3: got twenty different sketches that accurately portray all the intimate

740
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 3: details of how Ellen's body, how her clothing, how the

741
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 3: evidence was in sets you at this crime scene.

742
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 1: And that is the disadvantage we have. I mean, they

743
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:15,879
Speaker 1: certainly had.

744
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 2: It was awful. I know Oscar Heinrich loved photography. He photographed.

745
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 2: I can't even tell you how big his photography collection was.

746
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 2: Thank goodness, because you know, as an author, I can

747
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,719
Speaker 2: look at the photographs of these crime scenes and get

748
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:33,439
Speaker 2: so much out of it, so much description, so much

749
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 2: sort of feeling and you know, a visceral evidence for

750
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 2: my readers that it's just so much more difficult to

751
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 2: get when you're working in the eighteen hundreds, before something

752
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:47,319
Speaker 2: like crime scene photography really would have come up. Let

753
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,439
Speaker 2: me give you a little bit more information, because now

754
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 2: we have the police scouring the area. I told you

755
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 2: parts of it were disrupted as if there had been

756
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 2: a struggle. They found pieces of a man's necktie which

757
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 2: had been torn apart. Now we might be coming back

758
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:05,760
Speaker 2: to the wrists because they weren't specific enough to say

759
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:07,759
Speaker 2: these are finger marks on her wrists that have been

760
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 2: restraining her. They just said marks. So now I wonder

761
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 2: if you're right and she had been restrained using somebody's necktie,

762
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 2: some man's necktie.

763
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, that's entirely possible. I've seen a man's necktie

764
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:25,319
Speaker 3: used as a ligature around the neck, for sure, But

765
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:29,320
Speaker 3: it most certainly is capable of being used as binding

766
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:33,879
Speaker 3: in order to bind both wrists together, or to be

767
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:38,239
Speaker 3: wrapped around one wrist to be almost as a control mechanism. Yeah.

768
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:40,759
Speaker 3: So again, I would have to see the marks on

769
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 3: her wrists to correlate. Does that look like something that

770
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 3: this kind of broad fabric of a necktie would make

771
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 3: versus let's say shoelaces, which very narrow marks would be

772
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 3: left on the wrists.

773
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:56,719
Speaker 2: Is there usable DNA on that necktie or no?

774
00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:00,920
Speaker 3: Oh, absolutely on a man's necktie. Okay, you think about

775
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:07,360
Speaker 3: man's necktie, you know, there's really only one person that

776
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 3: generally touches the man's necktie, and that's the man himself.

777
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 3: Now sometimes I partner, you know, may touch that necktie,

778
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:18,920
Speaker 3: but it's not like this is an article of clothing

779
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 3: that you have a lot of people grabbing. So you

780
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 3: know this wear DNA because men's neckties, you don't throw

781
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 3: those in the laundry. You might get them dry clean,

782
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 3: but generally you wear them. In fact, most of my neckties,

783
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 3: I don't think we're ever you know, laundered in any capacity,

784
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 3: but my hands are constantly touching them as I'm tying

785
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 3: that tie or flipping it out the way. You know,

786
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:41,800
Speaker 3: I go to a crime scene, I don't want it

787
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:43,360
Speaker 3: to go down into the blood pool.

788
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:46,360
Speaker 1: I did not know that men don't wash their neckties.

789
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 3: No, well, I mean if you really have no reason

790
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:51,880
Speaker 3: to unless it gets stained, you know, you get the

791
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 3: ketchup on it or the spaghetti sauce. In fact, I

792
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 3: had a homicide guy who you know that was It

793
00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 3: was always funny because back way back in the day,

794
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:04,240
Speaker 3: under my previous sheriff, the homicide investigators had to wear

795
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 3: shirt and tie and so you know, you lean over

796
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:10,319
Speaker 3: the body. Where does that tie go, you know, And

797
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 3: I literally saw one guy's tie go right down into

798
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 3: the bloodpool around those victims head. Now you're screwed. Now

799
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:19,960
Speaker 3: that tie needs to be laundered. But I'm just talking

800
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 3: generally in terms of habit. If this tie is left

801
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 3: by the offender, and it's the offender's necktie, it's a

802
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:31,920
Speaker 3: beautiful source of DNA. Now can't conclude at this point

803
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 3: that this tie is from the offender or even related

804
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:37,399
Speaker 3: to the crime scene, but it's present and it kind

805
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:40,400
Speaker 3: of stands out because this is not a location where

806
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 3: you'd expect a man's necktie to be laying. Does it

807
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:47,800
Speaker 3: look fresh? Items of clothing and any items for that matter,

808
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:51,400
Speaker 3: are out in the environment. There's some weathering that occurs,

809
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:54,440
Speaker 3: and so that's part of the initial observations. I would

810
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:58,920
Speaker 3: process outdoor crime scenes and sometimes very trashy areas, And

811
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 3: so now I have to have a very discerning eye

812
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,239
Speaker 3: as to how long I think any item that I'm

813
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 3: looking at laying on the ground. Any piece of trash

814
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 3: looks like hell that's been there for weeks, you know,

815
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:13,920
Speaker 3: or versus that looks fresh. So I put more weight

816
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:17,280
Speaker 3: on something that looks fresh. So does this man's necktie

817
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 3: out here at this crime scene. Does it look like

818
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 3: it's been recently deposited or now is it looking like

819
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 3: it's faded and it's you know, kind of driven down

820
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:29,279
Speaker 3: into the ground, you know, So you just start having

821
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 3: to pay attention to those types of details.

822
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:35,759
Speaker 2: I believe recently deposited, ripped up, but recently deposited.

823
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 1: So they take it.

824
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:38,880
Speaker 2: Let's talk about some of the stuff that was found

825
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:42,520
Speaker 2: with the autopsy. They said that her shawl was bunched up,

826
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:45,640
Speaker 2: which anybody could have seen in the stream around her head.

827
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:50,240
Speaker 2: And she also had what they called a livid bruise

828
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 2: on her forehead. What does livid bruise mean?

829
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 3: Well, lividity And this is what I am assuming that

830
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:01,359
Speaker 3: they're talking about, is that when you die, your heart

831
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:04,760
Speaker 3: stops pumping blood. The blood is going to flow down

832
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:08,360
Speaker 3: with gravity, and this is your lividity, you know. And

833
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:12,919
Speaker 3: so you can see looking at a body, can see

834
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 3: the lower surfaces of the body with gravity be darker,

835
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:21,799
Speaker 3: kind of a reddish purplish reddish color, and the top

836
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 3: surfaces of the body being lighter. It doesn't have the

837
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 3: blood up there. If she's face down in this stream,

838
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:32,920
Speaker 3: her face is going to be flush with this lividity,

839
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 3: But where her face is in contact, let's say with

840
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:40,359
Speaker 3: the ground, the blood can't get into that tissue, so

841
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,799
Speaker 3: you'll have sort of this clearing. We use lividity all

842
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 3: the time to determine has the body been moved since

843
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 3: the lividity formed and set. It tells us, oh, there's

844
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:56,239
Speaker 3: been this victim was dead laying somewhere else for a

845
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 3: period of time, and now that they've been moved to

846
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:01,960
Speaker 3: a secondary location, their lividity doesn't match up with how

847
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:06,880
Speaker 3: the body is laying there. So this livid bruise. My

848
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:11,040
Speaker 3: thought is is they're observing lividity, they're just using a

849
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:15,240
Speaker 3: different type of descriptor than what we would use today.

850
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:20,399
Speaker 2: Well, the attending physician says that it looks clear that

851
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:25,640
Speaker 2: she was probably either struck with a rock meaning on

852
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 2: her forehead meaning someone hit her, or she fell okay

853
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 2: and hit her head and drowned.

854
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:32,480
Speaker 1: So what do you think about that?

855
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 2: That's what they said, that she either fell in her head,

856
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:36,839
Speaker 2: hit the rock, or somebody did it to her.

857
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 3: Okay, So now they're using the term livid differently than

858
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:44,920
Speaker 3: what I was thinking. Okay, yeah, so sorry, disregard my

859
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 3: entire monologue on lividity valuable. No, so yeah, I'm just

860
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 3: looking up the term livid, which it makes sense now

861
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 3: within context, you know, furiously angry, you know, it is

862
00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 3: kind of how this you're livid, right, So this is

863
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:03,920
Speaker 3: a weird it's a weird adjective to apply to an injury.

864
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:08,479
Speaker 3: So it sounds like the pathologist is noting that there

865
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:12,840
Speaker 3: has been a blow, a blow that caused hemorrhage to

866
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:17,400
Speaker 3: her forehead. And so now they're seeing a very distinct

867
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 3: bruise to her forehead. Now do they indicate if this

868
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 3: blow caused a laceration, Is it a bleeding injury, is

869
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:28,319
Speaker 3: there any fracture to the skull itself, or is it

870
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:30,719
Speaker 3: just a bruise to the front of her forehead.

871
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:32,640
Speaker 1: Bruise to the front of the forehead.

872
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:35,319
Speaker 2: However, and this is what I thought was interesting, and

873
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:39,440
Speaker 2: we circle back again to suicide or an accident, that

874
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:43,000
Speaker 2: she was out there and tripped and fell hit her head,

875
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 2: because they found water and sand in her stomach, as

876
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:50,840
Speaker 2: well as a vegetable substance which grew on the rocks

877
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:55,280
Speaker 2: in that brook. And of course the attending physician says

878
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 2: she was alive in the water and inhaled all of

879
00:48:58,320 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 2: the stuff when she was trying to catch her breath.

880
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 3: That's exactly what that indicates. And now I'm seeing livid

881
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:09,759
Speaker 3: bruise as dark bluish gray in color. So this is

882
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:13,160
Speaker 3: a yeah, this looks like that. That is a formal

883
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 3: descriptor the more you.

884
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:18,000
Speaker 2: Know, Paul Holes, not often I teach you something.

885
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 3: So now, okay, So we have a bruise to her forehead,

886
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:28,400
Speaker 3: and we have her inhaling the water and in essence

887
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 3: the muck from this creek. With just that information, is

888
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:35,759
Speaker 3: it consistent with her tripping and falling and hitting her

889
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 3: head and possibly losing consciousness and now she's just ingesting

890
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:43,960
Speaker 3: the water and the muck. I would say with that

891
00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 3: information alone, yes, though at this point we also know

892
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:52,120
Speaker 3: she has these strange marks on her wrists that isn't

893
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:56,120
Speaker 3: consistent with just the trip and fall. Does she have

894
00:49:56,520 --> 00:49:58,960
Speaker 3: any other injuries that they found at autopsy?

895
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:02,319
Speaker 2: No? They found something else though that I think you'll

896
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:05,719
Speaker 2: find very interesting. So we have to head into our

897
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:09,040
Speaker 2: break and then we'll have another discussion next week, but

898
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:13,800
Speaker 2: I will leave you with this. When the tending physician

899
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:17,719
Speaker 2: went through the autopsy, he found that eighteen year old

900
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 2: Ellen Lucas was about seven months pregnant.

901
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:24,720
Speaker 3: That complicates things.

902
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:29,000
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, so we have an eighteen year old young

903
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 2: woman who is pregnant, very pregnant. It sounds like we

904
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:36,760
Speaker 2: have a fiance who says I don't know anything about anything,

905
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 2: and investigators as soon as they get this report, I'm

906
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 2: sure going to head straight to his place to find

907
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:46,960
Speaker 2: out what happened with James and a family that is heartbroken,

908
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:50,280
Speaker 2: and everybody wants to know what happened to Ellen Lucas.

909
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:53,920
Speaker 2: Did she do this herself? Did she have an accident

910
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:56,920
Speaker 2: or was she murdered? And that is the question we

911
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:58,320
Speaker 2: will have for next week.

912
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:01,480
Speaker 3: Okay, well, I look forward to hearing the rest of

913
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:03,720
Speaker 3: the story season. Sounds good.

914
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for our.

915
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:13,720
Speaker 3: Sources and show notes go to exactlyrightmedia dot com slash

916
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:15,160
Speaker 3: Buried Bones sources.

917
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:17,680
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

918
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:22,240
Speaker 3: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

919
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:24,759
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

920
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:27,359
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

921
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:29,640
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

922
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgaroff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

923
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:37,680
Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

924
00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:38,560
Speaker 2: Baried Bones.

925
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 3: Pod Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a

926
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:43,880
Speaker 3: Gilded Age story of murder and the race to decode

927
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:45,759
Speaker 3: the criminal mind, is available now

928
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:50,360
Speaker 2: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's

929
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:53,520
Speaker 2: cold cases is also available now