Speaker 1: Welcome to Haunted Road, a production of I Heart Radio
Speaker 1: and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Minky listener, Discretion is Advised.
Speaker 1: Built in sixteen seventy nine by French explorer Renee de
Speaker 1: la Salle, the forty ton Griffin was the first European
Speaker 1: ship to sail the Upper Great Lakes. A true wilderness vessel,
Speaker 1: the Griffin was not a shipyard project. It was built
Speaker 1: instead along the banks of the Niagara River, several miles
Speaker 1: north of the American side of the falls. Although the
Speaker 1: Griffin was fitted out with weaponry, her stated purpose was
Speaker 1: to deliver supplies for La Salle's expeditions into New France.
Speaker 1: Setting sail August seven, sixteen seventy nine, with Lasal on board,
Speaker 1: the Griffin left niagarapher Detroit, where several men joined the crew.
Speaker 1: The difficult maiden voyage took the Griffin from Lake Erie
Speaker 1: to St Ignace, through the Straights of Macinaw, and into
Speaker 1: Lake Michigan. It anchored finally off the shore of Green Bay, Wisconsin.
Speaker 1: Soon afterward, Lassole decided to send the Griffin back to
Speaker 1: Niagara in order to pick up men and supplies. Carrying
Speaker 1: a cargo of furs, The Griffin set sail on September eighteen,
Speaker 1: sixteen seventy nine, under favorable weather conditions. Once they left
Speaker 1: Washington Harbor, however, the ship and her crew of six
Speaker 1: were never seen again. The Griffin disappeared without a trace.
Speaker 1: As for what really happened to the Griffin, it very
Speaker 1: likely went down in a storm, but that hasn't stopped
Speaker 1: rumors of it reappearing as a ghost ship for centuries.
Speaker 1: Sailors on Lake Michigan have claimed to see the ghostly
Speaker 1: outlines of an antiquated ship emerged suddenly out of a
Speaker 1: fog bank, but just when the ship seem about to collide,
Speaker 1: the Griffin vanishes. Others swear that the Griffin can be
Speaker 1: glimpsed on foggy nights, still sailing out of Green Bay Harbor,
Speaker 1: not sur risingly signing. The lost Griffin is regarded as
Speaker 1: a sign of bad luck. The Griffin was the first
Speaker 1: ship on record to be lost in the Great Lakes.
Speaker 1: Since then, there have been thousands more. So let's head
Speaker 1: to Sue St. Marie, Michigan and explore the haunted museum
Speaker 1: ship Valley Camp and why the most recent shipwreck on
Speaker 1: the Great Lakes may have everything to do with why
Speaker 1: the Valley Camp is haunted. I'm Amy Brunei, and this
Speaker 1: is haunted Road. The Upper Peninsula of Michigan, where the
Speaker 1: Valley Camp is located, is sparsely populated compared to the
Speaker 1: rest of the state, but incredibly rich in history. It
Speaker 1: consists of the top one third of Michigan's land mass,
Speaker 1: yet only three of Michigan's population resides here. Locals are
Speaker 1: known as uper, a term derived from the term up
Speaker 1: Upper Peninsula uper. And if you live in the Lower
Speaker 1: Peninsula of Michigan under the Mackinaw Bridge, they affectionately refer
Speaker 1: to you as a troll because you live under the bridge. Clearly,
Speaker 1: many of you probably haven't heard of the Valley Camp.
Speaker 1: The Valley Camp is a lake freighter that served on
Speaker 1: the Great Lakes for over fifty years. Built in nineteen
Speaker 1: seventeen and retired in nineteen sixties six, The now museum
Speaker 1: ship is five hundred fifty feet in length and features
Speaker 1: a variety of displays. More than one hundred exhibits populate
Speaker 1: the ship's cargo hold. What once held iron, ore, coal,
Speaker 1: and limestone is now home to displays showcasing maritime memories shipwrecks, lighthouses,
Speaker 1: and local history. The ship is also reportedly quite haunted,
Speaker 1: which is why we're talking about it today, and I've
Speaker 1: investigated there so I can vouch for this. But before
Speaker 1: we get to the ghost stories and the more in
Speaker 1: depth history of the ship itself, it's vital that we
Speaker 1: explore the history of the very area it is docked,
Speaker 1: and then we can get into just what is being
Speaker 1: kept in that ship's cargo hold. Sue St. Marie was
Speaker 1: settled as early as sixteen sixty eight, making it Michigan's
Speaker 1: oldest city and among the oldest cities in the United States,
Speaker 1: according to siue St. Marie dot com. Over the course
Speaker 1: of its history, the flags of several sovereign nations have
Speaker 1: flown over the Sioux. Over two thousand years ago, Native
Speaker 1: Americans began to gather here for the wealth of fish
Speaker 1: and for found along the rushing waters of the wide,
Speaker 1: turbulent river that linked the great Lakes of Superior and
Speaker 1: here On. Spring and fall were important seasons for these
Speaker 1: original settlers, and they called the area the botting or
Speaker 1: the gathering Place. The area's first full time residents lived
Speaker 1: in lodges framed of wood poles sheaths with bark or
Speaker 1: animal hides. The river below the rapids provided an abundance
Speaker 1: of fish for native peoples, as well as several tribes
Speaker 1: from throughout the region who migrated here during peak fishing season.
Speaker 1: In the sixteen hundreds, French missionaries and fur traders began
Speaker 1: to venture into the Sioux. The traders began calling the
Speaker 1: wild area Sioux du Gaston. In sixteen sixty eight, the
Speaker 1: legendary Jesuit missionary and explorer Jacques Marquette renamed this burgeoning
Speaker 1: European settlement Sioue St. Marie, in honor of the Virgin Mary,
Speaker 1: the first city in the Great Lakes region. While there
Speaker 1: is some debate on the exact meaning of Siue, scholars
Speaker 1: of early French note that the word translates into jump,
Speaker 1: referring to the place where one needs to jump or
Speaker 1: put into the St. Mary's River. This translation relates to
Speaker 1: the treacherous rapids and cascades that fall twenty one feet
Speaker 1: from the level of Lake Superior to the level of
Speaker 1: the Lower Lakes. Hundreds of years ago. This prohibited boat
Speaker 1: traffic and necessitated and overland portage from one lake to
Speaker 1: the other. This is how Portage Avenue, the main street
Speaker 1: running along the river, acquired its name. Due to this
Speaker 1: strategic location of the river and the abundant natural resources
Speaker 1: found here. The French and British often fought over the
Speaker 1: area and the right to trade with the Native Americans
Speaker 1: in the seventeen hundreds. In eighteen twenty the Treaty of
Speaker 1: the Sioux was signed, which turned control over to the
Speaker 1: United States. In eighteen twenty three, Fort Brady was built
Speaker 1: on the grounds of the old French Fort Ri Pontani,
Speaker 1: as the New Americans were concerned about possible British invasions
Speaker 1: from nearby Canada. This fort on Water Street was eventually
Speaker 1: abandoned in the eighteen nineties and a new Fort Brady
Speaker 1: was constructed on the grounds of present day Lake Superior
Speaker 1: State University. Throughout all of this turbulent history, the St.
Speaker 1: Mary's River continued to dominate the life and events of
Speaker 1: Sioux St. Marie, as it continues to do today. An
Speaker 1: important component to Sue St. Marie and an engineering marvel
Speaker 1: to behold in person is the Sioux Lox. Turns out,
Speaker 1: they did not come about so easily. In case you
Speaker 1: don't know what a lock is. According to Wikipedia. A
Speaker 1: lock is a device used for raising and lowering boats, ships,
Speaker 1: and other watercraft between stretches of water of different levels
Speaker 1: on river and canal waterways. Locks are used to make
Speaker 1: a river more easily navigable, or to allow a canal
Speaker 1: to cross land that is not level so again, according
Speaker 1: to Sue Saint Marie dot com, in seventeen ninety seven,
Speaker 1: the Northwest Fur Company constructed a navigation lock thirty eight
Speaker 1: feet long on the Canadian side of the river for
Speaker 1: small boats. This lock remained in use until destroyed in
Speaker 1: the War of eighteen twelve. Freighters and boats were again
Speaker 1: portaged around the rapids at that point. Congress passed an
Speaker 1: act in eighteen fifty two granting seven hundred fifty thousand
Speaker 1: acres of public land to the State of Michigan has
Speaker 1: compensation to the company that would build a lock permitting
Speaker 1: waterborne commerce between Lake Superior and the other Great Lakes.
Speaker 1: The Fairbanks Scale Company, which had extensive mining interests in
Speaker 1: Upper Peninsula, undertook this challenging construction project in eighteen fifty three.
Speaker 1: In spite of adverse conditions, Fairbanks is aggressive accountant Charles T. Harvey,
Speaker 1: completed a system of two locks in tandem, each three
Speaker 1: fifty feet long. Within the two year deadline set by
Speaker 1: the State of Michigan. On May thirty one, eighteen fifty five,
Speaker 1: the locks were turned over to the state and designated
Speaker 1: as the State Lock. The federal government took control of
Speaker 1: the property and the lock system in the eighteen seventies.
Speaker 1: Their stewardship actually continues today, administered by the U. S.
Speaker 1: Army Corps of Engineers. The Sioux Locks are the busiest
Speaker 1: locks in the world and include the largest lock in
Speaker 1: the Western Hemisphere, completed in nineteen sixty eight. Now sailing
Speaker 1: craft on the Great Lakes date to the first ships
Speaker 1: constructed on Lake Ontario in the seventeenth century. The first
Speaker 1: ships on the Lakes were built at Lake Ontario, due
Speaker 1: to the natural barriers posed by the St. Lawrence River
Speaker 1: rapids and the falls at Niagara. All the earliest Great
Speaker 1: Lakes crafts were brigs, schooners or sloops of traditional European design.
Speaker 1: The ships were probably designed in either France and England
Speaker 1: by naval personnel. Between seventeen fifty six and seventeen sixty three,
Speaker 1: the British and French were involved in the Seven Years War.
Speaker 1: Shipbuilding during that time followed admiralty designs. Even so, the
Speaker 1: fore and aft schooner rig had begun to demonstrate its
Speaker 1: suitability for the confined waters and shallow rivers of the
Speaker 1: Great Lakes. Four and aft rig vessels were lighter and
Speaker 1: more easily managed than square rig ships. Ease of maneuverability
Speaker 1: was also an important consideration in the lakes, where frequent
Speaker 1: course changes were necessary to navigate the twisting rivers and
Speaker 1: in the relatively limited sea room. Modern day lake freighters
Speaker 1: or lakers, are bulk carrier vessels. Since the late nineteenth century,
Speaker 1: lakers have carried bulk cargoes of materials such as limestone, iron, ore, grain, coal,
Speaker 1: or salt from the mine and fields of the upper
Speaker 1: Great Lakes to the populous industrial areas farther east. The
Speaker 1: sixty three commercial ports handled one hundred seventy three million
Speaker 1: tons of cargo in two thousand six alone. Because of
Speaker 1: winter ice on the lakes, the navigation system is not
Speaker 1: usually year round. The Sux Locks, for example, closes from
Speaker 1: mid January to late March, when most boats are laid
Speaker 1: up for maintenance. Crew members spend those months ashore, hopefully
Speaker 1: ashore somewhere in like Hawaii. The Valley Camp in particular,
Speaker 1: was built by the American Shipbuilding Company in Lorraine, Ohio,
Speaker 1: and launched on July four, nineteen seventeen as the Lewis W. Hill.
Speaker 1: A nineteen hundred horsepower triple expansion steam engine and two
Speaker 1: coal fired boilers powered the ship. During her career, the
Speaker 1: eleven thousand, five hundred tons ship logged three million miles
Speaker 1: and carried an excess of sixteen millions tons of cargo.
Speaker 1: The Valley Camp arrived in sue St. Marie on July third,
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty eight, and the Historical Society converted her into
Speaker 1: a twenty thousand square foot museum with over one hundred exhibits.
Speaker 1: For the last fifty years, the Valley Camp has resided
Speaker 1: at five oh one East Water Street in sue St. Marie, Michigan.
Speaker 1: Work on Lake Freighter's was originally and still can be treacherous.
Speaker 1: The Great Lakes has a long history of groundings, shipwrecks, storms,
Speaker 1: and collisions. There have been over six thousand shipwrecks in
Speaker 1: the Great Lakes, having caused an estimated loss of thirty
Speaker 1: thousand mariners lives. It is also estimated that there are
Speaker 1: up to five hundred fifty wrecks in Lake Superior alone,
Speaker 1: most of which are undiscovered. The largest and last major
Speaker 1: freighter wrecked on the lakes was the S. S. Edmund
Speaker 1: Fitzgerald that sank in Lake Superior during a storm on
Speaker 1: November tenth, nineteen seventy five, with the loss of the
Speaker 1: entire row of twenty nine men carrying a full cargo
Speaker 1: of ore pellets. With Captain Ernest M. McSorley in command,
Speaker 1: she embarked on her ill fated voyage from Superior, Wisconsin,
Speaker 1: near Duluth on the afternoon of November nine, nine. En
Speaker 1: route to a steel mill near Detroit, Edmund Fitzgerald joined
Speaker 1: a second tacon nite freighter, S. S Arthur M. Anderson.
Speaker 1: By the next day, the two ships were caught in
Speaker 1: a severe storm on Lake Superior, with near hurricane force
Speaker 1: winds and waves up to thirty five feet high. Shortly
Speaker 1: after seven ten pm, Edmund Fitzgerald suddenly sank in Canadian
Speaker 1: waters five hundred thirty feet deep, about seventeen miles from
Speaker 1: Whitefish Bay, near the twin cities of Siue St. Marie,
Speaker 1: Michigan and Siue St. Marie, Ontario, a distance The Edmund
Speaker 1: Fitzgerald could have covered in just over an hour at
Speaker 1: her top speed under normal conditions. Although the search recovered debris,
Speaker 1: including lifeboats and rafts, none of the crew were found owned.
Speaker 1: On her final voyage, Edmund Fitzgerald's crew of twenty nine
Speaker 1: consisted of the captain, the first, second and third mates,
Speaker 1: five engineers, three oilers, a cook, a wiper, two maintenance men,
Speaker 1: three watchmen, three decans, three wheelsman, two porters, a cadet
Speaker 1: and a steward. Artifacts on display at the Valley Camp
Speaker 1: include two lifeboats, photos, a movie of Edmund Fitzgerald, and
Speaker 1: commemorative models and paintings. The lifeboats were two of the
Speaker 1: very few items removed from the wreck, and one is
Speaker 1: almost completely ripped in half, demonstrating the severity of the
Speaker 1: storm they faced. They are quite a thing to see
Speaker 1: in person. Most when viewing the boats just go silent.
Speaker 1: It does feel as though you are visiting a grave site.
Speaker 1: As far as hauntings on board the Valley Camp, you
Speaker 1: only need go as far as asking some of the boys.
Speaker 1: Many have had experiences on board, including a general feeling
Speaker 1: of uneased when locking up at night. Staff and visitors
Speaker 1: alike have reported being touched or their clothes tugged with
Speaker 1: no apparent culprit. Some have seen shadow figures, while others
Speaker 1: have been overcome with feelings of an unseen presence on
Speaker 1: the ship. Numerous visitors have reported a heavy feeling in
Speaker 1: the area of the Edmund Fitzgerald lifeboats. A local team,
Speaker 1: the Upper Peninsula Paranormal Research Society or u p p
Speaker 1: r S, has investigated the ship many times. In addition
Speaker 1: to a number of experiences, they have captured very clear
Speaker 1: e vps, including one that says the name George George
Speaker 1: Hole was the chief engineer of the Fitzgerald when it
Speaker 1: went down. So to talk with us more about the
Speaker 1: hauntings on the valley camp, I've brought my two very
Speaker 1: good friends, Tim Ellis and Brad Blair from the u
Speaker 1: p p r S team, So we go way back.
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of reminiscing here, but they also
Speaker 1: play us one of their very clear e vps that
Speaker 1: they capture while investigating the ship, so that is coming
Speaker 1: up after the break. I am sitting here now with
Speaker 1: Tim Ellis and Brad Blair, who are two of the
Speaker 1: three founders of u p p r S, a paranormal
Speaker 1: team located in the Upper Peninsula. They are also very
Speaker 1: well known for their yearly paranormal convention, Michigan Para Coon
Speaker 1: that I would say it's probably one of the most
Speaker 1: respected paranormal conventions in the world at this point. And
Speaker 1: they have investigated the Valley Camp many times. I've investigated
Speaker 1: it with them, and so they seemed like the perfect
Speaker 1: people to talk to. So Hello guys, Hello, Hi, I
Speaker 1: was thinking about this this morning. Our history goes way back,
Speaker 1: especially Tim. So basically, way back in the day, we
Speaker 1: were part of paranormal teams that were part of the
Speaker 1: TAPS Family network. And so for those who are not
Speaker 1: familiar the show ghost Hunters, which is kind of the
Speaker 1: o G of paranormal shows that I was on for
Speaker 1: a number of years, their team was called TAPS and
Speaker 1: they had a network of teams they would refer cases to.
Speaker 1: And so Tim and I were both on TAPS Family teams,
Speaker 1: and I think Brad you were as well, right, I
Speaker 1: don't think I worked with you as much though, No.
Speaker 1: Tim did a little bit more on the side with that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Tim was operating TAPS Family Radio, which was a podcast,
Speaker 1: and I was producing it. And I think this is
Speaker 1: going on like eighteen years ago, which is pretty insane
Speaker 1: to think about. And so I was producing it. So
Speaker 1: I would basically find the guests and do some research
Speaker 1: on them, and then Tim would host the podcast. And
Speaker 1: then Jay and Grant from Ghost Hunters heard the podcast
Speaker 1: and they wanted to do their own radio show. They
Speaker 1: were working on Beyond Reality Radio, and so they stole
Speaker 1: me from Tim. Yes, and I met them that way,
Speaker 1: and that's how I ended up on ghost Hunters. So
Speaker 1: it is crazy how this all kind of comes full circle.
Speaker 1: I was just gonna say, it's full circle meeting back
Speaker 1: where we started. And I've never forgiven Jane Grant for
Speaker 1: stealing you Amy, but hey, you know, you gotta let
Speaker 1: it go at some point, I guess. I love, though,
Speaker 1: that we have all remained friends through all of these
Speaker 1: kind of different projects and iterations we've done. Like I
Speaker 1: think that's probably one of my favorite things is that
Speaker 1: there are so many people that I met well before
Speaker 1: I was on TV that I still connect with, and
Speaker 1: so I count you guys in that circle and I
Speaker 1: love that, well, we appreciate that. Now, let's talk about
Speaker 1: the Valley Camp. I find the history of these ships
Speaker 1: in the lakes, so interesting. I really wasn't that familiar
Speaker 1: with them until the first time I visited Michigan thanks
Speaker 1: to you guys. So what brought about you starting to
Speaker 1: investigate there? Well, it's an interesting area. You can look
Speaker 1: at where the ship is docked and to go back
Speaker 1: through the history. Just Sue St. Marie for a little
Speaker 1: bit of background, is Michigan's oldest city, and that's by
Speaker 1: European standards. If we go beyond that, this was a
Speaker 1: Native American fishing village for thousands of years. Literally on
Speaker 1: the same block that the Valley Camp is moored right
Speaker 1: now is an ancient Indian burial ground. So kind of
Speaker 1: sounding like a takeoff from Hollywood there, but there there
Speaker 1: is a lot going on down there, a lot of history,
Speaker 1: and we started hearing stories, I guess a few and
Speaker 1: far between when we were kids. Tim and I both
Speaker 1: grew up here in Sue Saint Marie. Yeah, and it's
Speaker 1: a pretty special place when you grow up and you
Speaker 1: get to watch these amazing feats of human creation, right
Speaker 1: these ships that should not be floating by you know,
Speaker 1: by sign standards, but they are there that they've created,
Speaker 1: These monsters that cut right through our downtown areas, So
Speaker 1: the Great Lakes and the Great Lakes Freighters is a
Speaker 1: big part of anyone who grows up in in this
Speaker 1: corner of the world that we live in. So growing
Speaker 1: up and seeing the Valley Camp every day we were
Speaker 1: downtown and hearing the stories about it, of course we
Speaker 1: were in awe of it. And you can tour it
Speaker 1: during the summertime. Uh, it is open as a museum ship.
Speaker 1: And then as we got older and started working with
Speaker 1: our our team for paranormal investigations, it was just it
Speaker 1: was a natural. We couldn't wait till we had a
Speaker 1: chance to finally get on there. And over the years,
Speaker 1: it's a handful of times we've been able to investigate
Speaker 1: the Valley Camp. Yeah, and I I've had the privilege
Speaker 1: of investigating it. And I have to say, you do
Speaker 1: set foot on that ship, and uh, it's very spooky.
Speaker 1: That's my professional term for it. And I think I
Speaker 1: think you can lit on the head with that professional term. Um,
Speaker 1: there's an energy and the minute you walk across that
Speaker 1: gang plank and you get inside and you're surrounded by
Speaker 1: all that metal and steel and that history, there's an
Speaker 1: energy in there. There's no denying that. And you look
Speaker 1: at the Valley Camp and other ships similar to it.
Speaker 1: The Valley Camp itself had served for forty nine years.
Speaker 1: I believe it was just shy of fifty years on
Speaker 1: the lakes, and you had a crew of thirty two
Speaker 1: sailors at a time that we're living on board. So
Speaker 1: you've had so many people, hundreds of people that called
Speaker 1: that home through at least one year service on the lakes.
Speaker 1: And that's a stressful job. Especially back when that was
Speaker 1: on the lakes, there weren't quite as many safety features
Speaker 1: as we have now on the current freighters, and shipwrecks
Speaker 1: were a risk of daily life well. And and you
Speaker 1: know the Valley Camp being built as it was as
Speaker 1: nineteen seventeen, think of how old that was. It was
Speaker 1: built with a coal fired engine. So even the conditions
Speaker 1: of people having got to work in the back part
Speaker 1: of the ship shoveling that coal in, I mean, I
Speaker 1: couldn't even imagine what it was like on a hot
Speaker 1: summer day down in that area and you're buy those
Speaker 1: boilers and shoveling that coal in. I mean, the work
Speaker 1: standards back then, no, thank you, Osha wasn't jumping in
Speaker 1: at the time, No, And it's not hard to go
Speaker 1: back through historical records and find, you know, a lot
Speaker 1: of accidents that took place on these ships, and there
Speaker 1: were a number that like ran aground or there were shipwrecks,
Speaker 1: and I'm sure the Valley camp was no exception. And
Speaker 1: like you said, the conditions are just wild that these
Speaker 1: men worked under. And that kind of brings to the
Speaker 1: point the boiler room area now is the boiler room
Speaker 1: I'm trying to reaquate myself in my brain. The boiler
Speaker 1: room is that in the very I never get these
Speaker 1: terms right the back of the ship, like the aft, Yes, aft,
Speaker 1: that would be the word. In the aft and in
Speaker 1: the bowel of the ship, Okay, because I do remember
Speaker 1: investigating in the aft section and you can kind of
Speaker 1: separate yourself pretty easily there because it's way in the back,
Speaker 1: away from everything, and that was probably one of the
Speaker 1: more active areas for us. And I feel like maybe
Speaker 1: that is either could be attributed to just what went
Speaker 1: on their stus wise and work wise, or maybe there
Speaker 1: was some sort of incident there at some point. But
Speaker 1: we heard a man coughing and there at one point,
Speaker 1: and then there was at one point we were all standing.
Speaker 1: I think I probably had eight or ten people with me,
Speaker 1: and we were all just aware of who was there
Speaker 1: in this group, and it's dark. It is very dark
Speaker 1: in that area. I don't remember if they're even windows,
Speaker 1: but we were there in the middle of the night,
Speaker 1: and at some point we all realized that this man
Speaker 1: who had been part of our group, like this shadow,
Speaker 1: was just not there anymore. And everyone had kind of
Speaker 1: just noted this person. But then suddenly everyone just kind
Speaker 1: of noted that the number of people seemed off, And
Speaker 1: this woman said, wasn't there a man standing right here?
Speaker 1: And I was like, I thought there was too. Did
Speaker 1: someone move? And there was, but there was no one.
Speaker 1: No one moved, No one owned up to it. It
Speaker 1: was very strange because a number of us saw it.
Speaker 1: And that's happened to me one other time at the St.
Speaker 1: Augustine Lighthouse where someone kind of joined our group. And so,
Speaker 1: have you guys gotten any particular activity in that area,
Speaker 1: you know, shadow figures aren't uncommon on the valley camp.
Speaker 1: I think it was our first investigation that we ever did.
Speaker 1: Um Michelle, one of our team members. We heard her
Speaker 1: give out a yel and she'd been alone and it
Speaker 1: would have been up above. It would have been, I believe,
Speaker 1: in the kitchen area. And I said, the shadow shot
Speaker 1: across the room. It looked like a man. She thought
Speaker 1: it was someone else on the team, and all of
Speaker 1: a sudden it took off across the room and into
Speaker 1: the back. And again the kitchen area would be right, yeah,
Speaker 1: directly above where you were amy in the coal areas.
Speaker 1: So same part of the ship, just on the upper
Speaker 1: deck right. And I do remember that now too because
Speaker 1: there are stairs going up in that direction. So that
Speaker 1: definitely caught us off guard. So the host as well,
Speaker 1: uh shadow figure has been reported by numerous guests, along
Speaker 1: with some of the staff of the Valley camp. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we've heard gotten even reports from the workers there who
Speaker 1: have come to us with tourists who come in psychic
Speaker 1: self proclaimed psychics and that will come up to him
Speaker 1: and say is this ship haunted? And of course you
Speaker 1: know they embraced their ghosts there, and and so you know,
Speaker 1: many times those shadow figures have been spotted by other
Speaker 1: people as well. And you had mentioned hearing a cough
Speaker 1: in the boiler room. That was actually captured by one
Speaker 1: of our own investigations too. We captured that as an
Speaker 1: e v P. And to this day it is one
Speaker 1: of our favorites that we've gotten over the years. You know,
Speaker 1: I actually have I think Tim sent it to me,
Speaker 1: so let me play it really quick, because I let
Speaker 1: me play the whole thing first, almost like a conversation.
Speaker 1: You're somebody just coughed or just sound like that is
Speaker 1: so wild. I just got chills, so clearly that's like coughing. Yes,
Speaker 1: that voice you hear that first voice you here, that's
Speaker 1: actually Brad and he's in there with another group. We
Speaker 1: were doing a pay to play what we call well
Speaker 1: we did. We did a fundraiser I don't remember for who,
Speaker 1: but one of the local charity organizations, and we had
Speaker 1: set it up that we we raffled off a ghost
Speaker 1: hunt for two and it would have been one of
Speaker 1: our Halloween shows, I believe that we did. And we
Speaker 1: were right down in the coal room, which we were
Speaker 1: speaking of earlier, and it's just such an eerie feeling
Speaker 1: down there. There's still chunks of coal and it's so
Speaker 1: dusty and so dirty, and this is an area that
Speaker 1: they don't normally allowed tourists down into as part of
Speaker 1: the tour. It's it's very congested, very dangerous, and we
Speaker 1: heard what sounded like somebody moving at the time, and
Speaker 1: that's where you hear me saying, hear that, and it
Speaker 1: sounded like somebody coughing. One of the young ladies that
Speaker 1: won the contest with us said, and you could hear that.
Speaker 1: That was plain, very plain. That was that was audible
Speaker 1: to the ear. And then as I'm saying, you know,
Speaker 1: it sounded like somebody coughing or you hear that voice,
Speaker 1: go over it and it says, I am coughing, very defendtively,
Speaker 1: male voice, very gruff, I am coughing, as if somebody
Speaker 1: that would have been working down in that room in
Speaker 1: the conditions that they would have been under while the
Speaker 1: valley camp was sailing. So it is difficult to investigate
Speaker 1: on a boat of any kind or ship because there's
Speaker 1: always this kind of background noise and you really have
Speaker 1: to acquaint yourself with it if you're going to spend
Speaker 1: any amount of time on there, and be familiar with
Speaker 1: what those sounds are versus sounds that might be paranormal.
Speaker 1: But I like about that is that it's clearly close
Speaker 1: to the microphone and it's clearly not you because it
Speaker 1: has a different cadence, and b it doesn't sound like
Speaker 1: it's even in the room with you per se, like
Speaker 1: you all have kind of an echo. This is more
Speaker 1: of like a very clear whisper. It's very strange, right,
Speaker 1: we heard the cough. Just to clarify, we heard the cough,
Speaker 1: but we did not hear that I am coughing. That
Speaker 1: didn't come up until we did review. So the cough, though,
Speaker 1: was that caused by someone there who was living or
Speaker 1: was that like a disembodied cough. Honestly, we think it
Speaker 1: was disembodied. It was nobody in our group, and we
Speaker 1: were far enough away from the other groups at the
Speaker 1: time that I don't believe it was somebody else that
Speaker 1: was there. Yeah, that's strange because that's again that's we
Speaker 1: did hear a cough in one of our groups at
Speaker 1: one point, just this kind of really groff cough. It
Speaker 1: makes me wonder if there's maybe some bit of history
Speaker 1: that we have not found yet, or maybe something happened
Speaker 1: on board the Valley Camp that involved something in the
Speaker 1: coal room, because that's a lot of activity like that,
Speaker 1: especially in that Yeah, and you know that that's one
Speaker 1: thing about the Valley Camp. Even in our research over
Speaker 1: the years with it is, we've never found like this
Speaker 1: dramatic incident that there was a large loss of life
Speaker 1: on the ship. But keeping in mind it is now
Speaker 1: a museum ship, and there are a ton of artifacts
Speaker 1: on that ship now that we're from other shipwrecks and
Speaker 1: loss of life. So there's this accumulated energy that's in
Speaker 1: their now that comes from those items as well. So
Speaker 1: whether whatever we caught there was actually from the Valley
Speaker 1: camp to begin with or as an attachment, we don't know.
Speaker 1: But there's so many artifacts on that ship now, right,
Speaker 1: And if you look at history of the Great Lakes
Speaker 1: and and shipwrecks, a conservative estimate is at least six
Speaker 1: thousand ships have gone down on the Great Lakes and
Speaker 1: loss of life better than thirty thousand, And that's that's conservative.
Speaker 1: If you go back prior to the mid eight hundreds,
Speaker 1: they really weren't tracking this. Yeah, that's true. I had
Speaker 1: no idea. That is wild to think about. And I mean,
Speaker 1: we've seen hauntings that are just surrounding an object alone.
Speaker 1: I don't necessarily think it's important for there to have
Speaker 1: been some sort of tragedy or loss of life in
Speaker 1: a space just to make it haunted. And I think
Speaker 1: that museums are kind of a perfect example of that.
Speaker 1: Like I I investigated the Titanic exhibit a couple of times,
Speaker 1: you know, the idea of being that those objects were haunted,
Speaker 1: So I can see why this would be the same.
Speaker 1: And I mean that being said, I think probably the
Speaker 1: most notorious exhibit there is involving the Edmund Fitzgerald. Right,
Speaker 1: how do you feel about that? Do you think there's
Speaker 1: something coming from that as far as paranormal activity goes? Yeah,
Speaker 1: n it's a great question. I mean, it's it's certainly
Speaker 1: the most um solemn area of the ship as far
Speaker 1: as I'm concerned. When you walked that area, you just
Speaker 1: pay respect those twenty nine lives that were lost on
Speaker 1: the Fitzgerald. And in that room then surrounded by the
Speaker 1: names of all those that are lost, is this lifeboat
Speaker 1: that is ripped right in half caused by the strength
Speaker 1: and the fury of Lake Superior on that night it
Speaker 1: ripped this lifeboat completely in half. That lifeboat eventually what
Speaker 1: was left of it washed up on shore and became
Speaker 1: part of the museum at the Valley Camp. So there
Speaker 1: certainly is that thought that wonder of lives lost instantly.
Speaker 1: I mean, one wave came in, crashed that ship. They
Speaker 1: went under and never came back up again. So that
Speaker 1: quick of loss in one area, who knows. I mean,
Speaker 1: it certainly lends itself to that, right, Yeah, and quite
Speaker 1: literally too, because these bodies were never recovered. So the
Speaker 1: trans the radio transmissions from that night I was going
Speaker 1: through and listening to them again, they you know, for
Speaker 1: lack of a better word, they are haunting. It is
Speaker 1: very hard to listen to because you can just kind
Speaker 1: of hear the urgency and everyone's voice. It was just
Speaker 1: it was such a tragedy, so and really puts into
Speaker 1: perspective the dangers that these workers faced every day. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but we ure on one investigation, and I know Tim
Speaker 1: knows exactly what I'm talking about. Right away, we were
Speaker 1: playing the final radio transmission between the Edmund Fitzgerald and
Speaker 1: the Arthur M. Anderson, which was the ship that was
Speaker 1: following it through the storm that night back in November,
Speaker 1: and we were conducting an e v P session while
Speaker 1: we were playing this in the background, thinking that it
Speaker 1: might stir something up. This was in the room that
Speaker 1: the Edmund Fitzgerald lifeboat is in and somebody came across
Speaker 1: one of the two way radios and said, hey, you
Speaker 1: guys have to get up here right now. And we
Speaker 1: got a little bit agitated because we were right in
Speaker 1: the middle of this session, and we said, well, we're
Speaker 1: kind of bit no, you need to get up here
Speaker 1: right now. So we're playing this final communication between the
Speaker 1: Arthur Anderson and the Fitzgerald. Right before the last words
Speaker 1: off the Fitzgerald, we're we're holding our own and after
Speaker 1: that they disappeared from radar and we're never seen again.
Speaker 1: So we get called up, so we run up the
Speaker 1: flights of stairs. Well we don't really run anymore, but
Speaker 1: we went our way up the flights of stairs and
Speaker 1: get to the back of the ship and the rest
Speaker 1: of the team is sitting there staring, and they're just
Speaker 1: yards out in the St. Mary's River. The Arthur M
Speaker 1: Anderson is passing. Wow. Not not supernatural, but the synchronicity
Speaker 1: this is so bizarre. It wasn't lost anyone though. It
Speaker 1: was a powerful moment, and everyone just stood there in silence,
Speaker 1: almost in respect of the very ship that was in contact.
Speaker 1: And then the coast guard asked them to turn around.
Speaker 1: They were ahead of the Fitzgerald and the Coast Guard
Speaker 1: asked the Anderson to turn around to go back into
Speaker 1: the very storm that just sunk a ship to try
Speaker 1: to find survivors, and they did reluctantly, but they did so.
Speaker 1: The Arthur and Anderson is still one of those ships
Speaker 1: that sails the Great Lakes today that every time you
Speaker 1: see it come through the St. Mary's River by Sue St. Marie,
Speaker 1: you just kind of stopped and watch. You're just kind
Speaker 1: of in awe of it of what it saw and
Speaker 1: witness that night. And that night it was so powerful
Speaker 1: to see that ship. Wow. I don't think there are
Speaker 1: any accidents when it comes to things like that, right, No,
Speaker 1: the timing was so bizarre and we we just stood
Speaker 1: there in reverence. Yeah, what other areas do you think
Speaker 1: have activity or are there any other artifacts on board
Speaker 1: that you think might be causing activity? You know, oddly
Speaker 1: there's there's a theater that doesn't have any artifacts in it.
Speaker 1: It's just a number of ships and they show a
Speaker 1: film on the Fitzgerald on some of the shipwrecks of
Speaker 1: the Lakes. And we were in there one night with
Speaker 1: the ghost Box trying to do a session. Absolutely nothing
Speaker 1: was coming across and this was one of the old
Speaker 1: school shock hacks, and it's just white noise coming at you.
Speaker 1: And we finally got to the end of the session
Speaker 1: and I said, well, I guess it's time to wrap
Speaker 1: this up. We would like to thank you for allowing
Speaker 1: us to be here and try to communicate with you tonight.
Speaker 1: And that was the one communication we had come across
Speaker 1: it after I said, that was your welcome very clearly
Speaker 1: through the box. And that very same room one of
Speaker 1: our first investigations on there. The door was closed and
Speaker 1: there was a light on so you could see the
Speaker 1: light coming through underneath part of the door, and a
Speaker 1: couple of the members of the team actually saw what
Speaker 1: seemed like a shadow kind of pacing back and forth
Speaker 1: in the room in there, and of course upon investigating
Speaker 1: and opening the door, there was no one in there too.
Speaker 1: So we've had a couple of incidences in that theater
Speaker 1: room as well, which is kind of as you walk
Speaker 1: in the plank to enter into the ship. It's you
Speaker 1: just walk up a little bit and it's around your
Speaker 1: right if I down on the lower floor though, but
Speaker 1: it's about midway through the ship, right. I actually remember
Speaker 1: that space because you told me about that when I
Speaker 1: was on there, and so I did do some e
Speaker 1: VP work in there while I was investigating, and we
Speaker 1: did get a very gruff male voice, and I wish
Speaker 1: I had the recording. I don't, but we did get
Speaker 1: a gruff male voice in there. And the nice thing
Speaker 1: about that room is that you can just like close
Speaker 1: yourself off from everything, so you don't have kind of
Speaker 1: the echo that's some of the more open areas of
Speaker 1: the ship and so completely silent. And we played it
Speaker 1: back and there was this male voice, and I do
Speaker 1: I think there was a woman there with her son,
Speaker 1: and I think that they had enough at that point.
Speaker 1: I think sometimes that people go into these investigations and
Speaker 1: they think it's going to be spooky and fun, and
Speaker 1: then something actually happens and they either get very excited
Speaker 1: or sometimes they just suddenly find a reason to go
Speaker 1: home early. Yeah, sitting in the comfort of your living
Speaker 1: room watching the TV shows and seeing that happen. I
Speaker 1: think it's a lot different for some people, and they
Speaker 1: don't realize it until it happens to them, right exactly.
Speaker 1: I'm remembering because I did just go through the history,
Speaker 1: but I feel like it's like five hundred feet long.
Speaker 1: Is that sound about right? Or I think it's five range. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and now it's been a museum ship at this point
Speaker 1: for over fifty years, right, Yeah, it came to the
Speaker 1: Sue in what is when it finally came here, then decommissioned.
Speaker 1: I believe in sixty six sixty six they've logged over
Speaker 1: three million miles. If you can just think of the
Speaker 1: range that that ship has been through. Oh yeah, and
Speaker 1: the and here's here's the interesting thing I find about
Speaker 1: the Valley Camp because old maritime legend is once you
Speaker 1: name a ship, you don't change the names, otherwise it
Speaker 1: brings bad luck. But the Valley Camp was actually when
Speaker 1: it first was built in nineteen seventeen, was the Lewis W.
Speaker 1: Hill and did not change until nineteen when it was sold.
Speaker 1: It actually went through a couple of different sales, but
Speaker 1: stayed the Valley Camp through the last two sales. But yeah,
Speaker 1: so the fact that they changed the name through its
Speaker 1: career I've always found very interesting. Yeah. And now he
Speaker 1: was like a railroad magnate or something, you know, he was.
Speaker 1: He was a very famous railroad man, and so I
Speaker 1: think he did he own it initially? I think he
Speaker 1: might have owned it initially. Uh that I'm not sure.
Speaker 1: That's Uh, I'd have to look into that one. You're
Speaker 1: talking about Louis Hill, Yeah, because I was going through
Speaker 1: because obviously when you're researching, like I was first looking
Speaker 1: at for Valley Camp, and then I realized it had
Speaker 1: a different name, which you're right, I had not really
Speaker 1: seen before with a ship, and so then I had
Speaker 1: to kind of restart and start researching when it was
Speaker 1: called the Lewis W. Hill, which you know, posed a
Speaker 1: whole new set of problems because then everything about that
Speaker 1: man started coming exactly. Yeah, I mean they were the
Speaker 1: ship itself was owned by an actual company, the American
Speaker 1: ship building companies who built it um, So I don't know,
Speaker 1: he maybe had something to do with the actual company
Speaker 1: that owned the ship. It was part of a fleet,
Speaker 1: so maybe he had something to do with it, right, right,
Speaker 1: A lot of transportation companies were intertwined, get back into
Speaker 1: lakes and the railways. I could see that. So you
Speaker 1: had brought up earlier just kind of the general history
Speaker 1: in that area. It is very rich, Like I know,
Speaker 1: having investigated Mackinaw Island a number of times, and things
Speaker 1: that like the indigenous people, the Native Americans that were
Speaker 1: there originally. There's so much to that. Do you think
Speaker 1: that that is affecting the hauntings on the Valley Camp
Speaker 1: at all? I think it could just for the same
Speaker 1: simple reason we've investigated to adjacent properties to that that
Speaker 1: have both turned out to have activity in them, and
Speaker 1: just down the road, and and where it's located right
Speaker 1: on the St. Mary's River next door to it as
Speaker 1: a huge hydro electric plant, there's so much energy in
Speaker 1: the area in running water through the same areas river
Speaker 1: we have right next to it as well are the
Speaker 1: historical homes which were moved from different parts of the
Speaker 1: of the city back in the day. So there's kind
Speaker 1: of like this perfect storm, if you will, to allow
Speaker 1: uh energy to be created right where the Valley Camp is.
Speaker 1: You've got this huge metal ship right on running water,
Speaker 1: right next to a huge hydro electric plant, next to
Speaker 1: more historical homes. So you just kind of mix it
Speaker 1: all up and and and you get this kind of
Speaker 1: perfect storm for energy to survive. Yeah. Well, I mean
Speaker 1: I think that regardless of its paranormal happenings, it's a
Speaker 1: very interesting place to visit. That whole downtown area is
Speaker 1: very it's very fun, it's very cute. Not in January
Speaker 1: or February. The first time we investigated Mackinaw Island, it
Speaker 1: was January or February, and that was It's one of
Speaker 1: those times that I look back and I think back
Speaker 1: on it fondly and I'm glad we did it. But
Speaker 1: we were on that island for two weeks, and when
Speaker 1: I was there, I really was not into it. But
Speaker 1: here's a funny story about that. And I don't know
Speaker 1: if we've ever shared this with you, Amy over a
Speaker 1: beer and a glass of wine. But so, our group,
Speaker 1: the Upper Peninsula Paranormal Research Society, we had been working
Speaker 1: with Mission Point Resort, which is the main area you
Speaker 1: guys investigated for that episode, and we had been talking
Speaker 1: to Mission Point. We're getting ready to come over to
Speaker 1: do an investigation. And we were maybe a week or
Speaker 1: so out and we get a phone call and like, yeah,
Speaker 1: we just want to let you guys know, have you
Speaker 1: ever heard of a TV show called ghost Hunters. We're
Speaker 1: like yeah, Like, we're gonna put you guys on hold
Speaker 1: for a bit. We got them coming into film. We're like, gosh,
Speaker 1: darn it again again. Yes, So they put us off
Speaker 1: for that moment. You guys came over in the winter,
Speaker 1: and then in that spring, as soon as the Straits
Speaker 1: and MCNA opened up, we took the first ferry and
Speaker 1: they gave us a resort for the weekend. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: was an amazing, amazing experience. Yeah, that place. We're going
Speaker 1: to have to do a whole other episode on MCINA
Speaker 1: alone because it's a fascinating place. There's a lot going
Speaker 1: on in the u P. I can see why you
Speaker 1: guys have like a full on paranormal team going on there.
Speaker 1: I can see why you have that amazing convention going
Speaker 1: on there. There's you know, haunts wise, there is no shortage.
Speaker 1: You would never know that. And then also there's all
Speaker 1: kinds of like UFO things going on up there too.
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of weirdness where you guys are.
Speaker 1: There really is, and I think that's why Brad and
Speaker 1: I love us. So. Yeah, a lot ofpted sightings, a
Speaker 1: lot of upology see monster right. Yeah, I mean it's
Speaker 1: just we've got a little bit of everything up here.
Speaker 1: And maybe it's the winter that makes us that weird,
Speaker 1: But I mean I enjoy it, and the people are
Speaker 1: always wonderful. Let's talk real quick about the convention, just
Speaker 1: because I want people to know we are investigating the
Speaker 1: Valley Camp during the Michigan Para con This year's of
Speaker 1: the second time we've done it. Adam Burry and I
Speaker 1: will be doing a private investigation there with people who
Speaker 1: want to join. So just tell them about just the
Speaker 1: convention and how they can find you guys. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: August two. This will be our twelfth annual. Should have
Speaker 1: been the thirteenth, but COVID bumped us a year. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and all of the info we're still updating. We're still
Speaker 1: getting new speakers in new workshops, new galleries. You can
Speaker 1: find it all at m I paracon dot com and
Speaker 1: m I as in Michigan, So m I paracon dot com.
Speaker 1: It's wonderful. I mean, I think I've been for the
Speaker 1: last ten years. I think there was one year I
Speaker 1: couldn't make it. I even was there, hugely pregnant one year. Yes,
Speaker 1: yes you were, Yes you were. You had to be
Speaker 1: escorted around to make sure maybe that she didn't decide
Speaker 1: to come then. And yeah you remember that that that
Speaker 1: was dedication, Yeah, it was, it was that was my
Speaker 1: I was my last event before I tucked myself away
Speaker 1: and waited for that child, who ended up being like
Speaker 1: two weeks late. You know, she's so but now she's nine,
Speaker 1: which is so crazy. So I think, actually, I'm going
Speaker 1: to bring her with me this year and we're gonna
Speaker 1: try to make I think we're gonna make a little
Speaker 1: vacation out of the whole thing and do Macanon. That
Speaker 1: would be fantastic. We would love to have her there.
Speaker 1: We we you know you you share so much of
Speaker 1: her on social media, so we feel like we've watched
Speaker 1: her grow up as well, and it would be great
Speaker 1: to have her there and she can we can remind
Speaker 1: her that she was here at one time in mama's belly,
Speaker 1: and but now she gets to experience it. Amy. I
Speaker 1: just want to take a quick second to thank you.
Speaker 1: Though in the intro you would mentioned that you know,
Speaker 1: m I Para Con is one of the most respected
Speaker 1: out there. That means a lot to us. We've worked
Speaker 1: hard over the years to make it that way. We
Speaker 1: know there's a lot of things that have done wrong
Speaker 1: in the field with stuff like that, but thank you
Speaker 1: for those words because that means a lot to us. Yeah. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: I love all the work you guys are doing with
Speaker 1: the team with the book with the Para coron, Like
Speaker 1: you guys are always up to something, so yeah, I
Speaker 1: know seriously, and I know what kind of trouble you
Speaker 1: guys can get into. So well. Thank you so much
Speaker 1: for taking the time and I super appreciate it, and
Speaker 1: I will be seeing you guys soon this summer, Yes
Speaker 1: you will, so as an honor, Amy, thank you for
Speaker 1: having us, of course, anytime. Before we go, I did
Speaker 1: want to point out that in n Gordon, Lightfoot composed
Speaker 1: and recorded the song The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald,
Speaker 1: which obviously was done to commemorate what happened with that ship.
Speaker 1: Now that I know so much more about it, it
Speaker 1: is a particularly haunting tune, so if you have some time,
Speaker 1: give it a listen. I know, so far on Haunted
Speaker 1: Road we've tended toward more well known haunts than say
Speaker 1: the Valley Camp, but it's nice to take a stroll
Speaker 1: off the beaten path every once in a while and
Speaker 1: discover something new. Plus we get to learn a lot
Speaker 1: of history. Not to mention the Valley Camp poses all
Speaker 1: sorts of questions and theories about what causes a haunting.
Speaker 1: Certainly high strangeness and history, so round It and the
Speaker 1: Edmund Fitzgerald Lifeboats may have everything to do with what's
Speaker 1: going on there or nothing to do with it, but
Speaker 1: I find that sometimes putting places like these into the
Speaker 1: public eye often brings forth some answers. So regardless, a
Speaker 1: trip to the Sioux should be high on your list
Speaker 1: of destinations in the US, just maybe not in February,
Speaker 1: as I learned, unless you're extra adventurous. So maybe I'll
Speaker 1: see you all there this summer though, until next time,
Speaker 1: I'm Amy Bruney and this was Haunted Road. If you
Speaker 1: want to join us on a spooky vacation, please check
Speaker 1: out my company, Strange Escapes at Strange dash Escapes dot com. Also,
Speaker 1: new episodes of Kindred Spirits are currently airing on Travel
Speaker 1: Channel on Saturday nights at ten ninth Central or streaming
Speaker 1: on Discovery Plus Special. Thanks to Lake Effect Living dot com,
Speaker 1: Sue St Marie dot com, the book Uber Natural Haunts
Speaker 1: by Tim Ellis, Fred Blair and Steve Laplant, and the
Speaker 1: Chippewa County Historical Society of Michigan for making great resources
Speaker 1: for today's episode. Haunted Road is a production of I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Mankey. The
Speaker 1: podcast is written and hosted by Amy Bruney. Executive producers
Speaker 1: include Aaron Mankey, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. The show
Speaker 1: is produced by rema Ill Kali and Trevor Young. Research
Speaker 1: by Taylor Haggerdorn, Amy Bruney and Robin Miniter. For more
Speaker 1: podcasts from i Heeart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.