1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: All media. 2 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:10,399 Speaker 2: This is it could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. Last 3 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:13,079 Speaker 2: week I was working on an essay about how the 4 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 2: Trump administration is trying to shut down the Department of Education. 5 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 2: Now very quickly that project expanded to being about how 6 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 2: Elon Musk is actually trying to internally coop the federal 7 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 2: government and become the CEO of the United States. That 8 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 2: article is now published on Shatterzone dot substack dot com 9 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:36,239 Speaker 2: and is also the previous episode of this podcast. But 10 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 2: during my research I talked with law professor Derek Black 11 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:43,879 Speaker 2: about the Department of Education, the state of disunion in 12 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 2: the country, and if we still have a democracy Already, 13 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 2: some of the things we talked about have begun to happen, 14 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 2: like Republicans introducing legislation to expanding executive power while Trump 15 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 2: and Musk flirt with denying the authority of the courts. 16 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 2: I decided to publish the full interview because I believe 17 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 2: his perspective is still helpful and the conversational format alters 18 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 2: the way we process information compared to me just reading 19 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 2: a kind of depressing essay for forty minutes. So, without 20 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 2: further ado, here is the interview. 21 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:20,960 Speaker 1: I'm Derek Black. I'm a professor of law at the 22 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: University of South Carolina. My area focuses on education law 23 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 1: and policy and really sort of how that relates to democracy. 24 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 1: But I teach constitutional law and courses like that. Author 25 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 1: of a couple of books Schoolhouse Burning, Public Education, and 26 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: the Assault on American Democracy, and then more recently Dangerous 27 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:40,039 Speaker 1: Learning the South long War on Black literacy. 28 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 2: Let's start by discussing what's going on at the Department 29 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 2: of Education right now, and maybe let's actually start a 30 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:49,639 Speaker 2: little bit further back. Attacks on the Department of Education, 31 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 2: like are not new. Reagan famously kind of pioneered the 32 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 2: rights focus on this, but it's been something they've struggled 33 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 2: to deal sizable blows against, especially in terms of wanting 34 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 2: to abolish the organization. Could you talk about like the 35 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 2: history of conservative attacks against the Department. 36 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:10,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you know, there's always been this states 37 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 1: rights issue that's been with America since its founding. Obviously 38 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:17,079 Speaker 1: was a big part of the Civil War, big part 39 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 1: of the Civil rights movement, you know, a big part 40 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 1: of the Affordable Healthcare Act debate. So you always have 41 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 1: this stage rights argument going on, and at least amongst 42 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,639 Speaker 1: the folks that are worried about that public education comes 43 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 1: up as being a target because there's this argument always that, well, 44 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: education is not in the federal constitution, so what business 45 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: does the federal government have to be involved? And so 46 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:40,679 Speaker 1: it's really more of a talking point as opposed to 47 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 1: any particular substantive reason why they want to get rid 48 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 1: of it. But that's really where it's come from. But 49 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 1: you know, it's often been not that serious of a critique, 50 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: but obviously it's gotten very serious here in the last 51 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: couple of weeks. 52 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the general overall feeling I'm having is that 53 00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 2: there's a lot of things going on that I would 54 00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 2: have previously thought are kind of like pipe dreams. Calls 55 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 2: to abolish the Department of Education, even this rallying call 56 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 2: from the new right in the past few years to 57 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 2: like abolish the FBI, general claims of you know, like 58 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 2: draining the swamp, these types of like old it's almost 59 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 2: like stereotypical claims that now through musk they've been able 60 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 2: to like weasel their way into actually dismantling like large, 61 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:26,919 Speaker 2: large systems that make the everyday functionality of the government possible. 62 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 2: What should people know, right, now about the current attacks 63 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 2: in the Department of Education. Trump is still allegedly drafting 64 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 2: in executive order. He'll probably have to work through Congress, 65 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 2: but we'll see the degree to which he even needs 66 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 2: to do that. What are you worried about, like right now? 67 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 2: And what do you think people should know about like 68 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 2: the current the current attacks on the dewy. 69 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: Well, there's the sort of immediate worries and then there's 70 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: the larger worries. The immediate worries I'll have to say, 71 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: I'm not terribly worried about. I mean, if you look 72 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 1: at the reporting that we've seen, it is interesting that 73 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 1: the White House seems to distinguish between the things that 74 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 1: it can do unilaterally right without Congress, and those things 75 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 1: that would need Congress. And I mean, it's a weird 76 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 1: silver lining, but that gives me like some like measure 77 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:18,920 Speaker 1: of comfortability in this weird, bizarre world, only because you know, 78 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:23,040 Speaker 1: two weeks ago the administration was willing to do things 79 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 1: that it had no authority to do, right, just sort 80 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 1: of his claiming authority to do everything. And so there 81 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:31,799 Speaker 1: is this at least recognition that there's not unbounded power. 82 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: So that's sort of the immediate threat is not that 83 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 1: huge because the White House, Trump's power over the Department 84 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:41,600 Speaker 1: or to close it up is relatively narrow, Like most 85 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: of the department is established by statute, and he can't 86 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 1: just dissolve things or move things around that are created 87 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:49,559 Speaker 1: by statute. He can't take money that's for poor kids 88 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: and spend them on vouchers. Right, these things you know, 89 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 1: the law dictates. And the fact that he's implicitly acknowledging, 90 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 1: or rather his advisors or you know, implicitly acknowledging they 91 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: need Congress has helped gives me a little bit of 92 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 1: comfort because I think that getting rid of the Department 93 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 1: is I'm not sure there's a majority in the House 94 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: for that, but there's certainly not a filibuster, you know, 95 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: sixty vote majority for that in the Senate. So that's 96 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 1: short term. But I think there's something far more disturbing 97 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: to me, and it's the long term, this sort of 98 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 1: idea that there's something illegitimate about the federal role in education, 99 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 1: that there's something illegitimate about public education itself. Those are 100 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 1: very dangerous ideas. And I have a piece that just 101 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: came out yesterday and Slate that says Look, you know, 102 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:38,720 Speaker 1: the federal role in public education predates the Constitution itself. 103 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 1: You know, probably no one, not many listeners, probably familiar. 104 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 1: I ever heard of the Northwest Ordinances of seventeen eighty 105 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:46,719 Speaker 1: five and seventeen eighty seven. But before we even had 106 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:51,039 Speaker 1: a United States Constitution, this foundational document laid out how 107 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 1: are territory is going to become states, And without going 108 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: through all the details, Congress embeds public education and the 109 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:00,719 Speaker 1: very fabric of what it means to be a state 110 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:05,040 Speaker 1: before we even have a constitution. And so that's very important. 111 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 1: Is where we start. At the end of the Civil War, 112 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 1: right where we almost lost our democracy. Congress, as a 113 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,280 Speaker 1: condition of readmitting Southern states into the Union, says that 114 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 1: one of the terms of readmission is that you create 115 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:20,039 Speaker 1: public education system and you never take those rights away, right, 116 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: forcing public education into the South in places where it 117 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: never had been before. You know, people are more familiar 118 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 1: with the civil rights movement. So I won't go through 119 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 1: all that, but just to take one more pause, I mean, 120 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 1: Congress created a Department of Education in eighteen sixty seven, 121 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:40,239 Speaker 1: right to get this public education project off the ground. 122 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,599 Speaker 1: So this isn't some wild new sort of fantasy of 123 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: liberals or unions that we need a department so that 124 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: we can hand over the spoils to teachers. This is 125 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 1: an idea about what it means to have democracy in America, 126 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 1: and public education is a centerpiece of that, and the 127 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:58,920 Speaker 1: federal government has been pushing it for two hundred and 128 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: fifty years. It's a good thing. It's a good thing. 129 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 2: How do you think that relates to the administration's attempts 130 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,280 Speaker 2: to centralize executive power? Though, Like, if you look at 131 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 2: like what happened with you said, right, this agency that 132 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 2: has been has been in tried in law that may 133 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 2: not be legally abolished now, but they've been effectively abolished, 134 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 2: Like all the employees are on leave, it's been hallowed out. 135 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 2: It essentially no longer exists. I feel like they're trying to, 136 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 2: at the very least test the bare limits of executive 137 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 2: power and bypass Congress when they can. Part of my 138 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 2: fear is like Congress is not willing to fight them 139 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 2: on that. Seemingly like they're not willing to call them 140 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 2: on that. They're almost willing to acquiesce their like appropriation's 141 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 2: ability as well as you know, the ability to have 142 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 2: actually have to like remove departments from existence or create 143 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 2: new ones. 144 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you're picking up on a thread that's much 145 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 1: bigger than a department. Right, So when Congress is willing 146 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: to hand the keys over to the president, then we 147 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 1: no longer really have have you know, a democracy, or 148 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 1: at least the constitutional democracy that was created you know, 149 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 1: a couple of centuries ago here in which the president 150 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: executes the law. The president doesn't make the law right, 151 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: Congress funds programs, not the executive. But if if ultimately 152 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: Congress is going to shift all that authority over like that, 153 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 1: that's a dangerous place for democracy to be. There are 154 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 1: no checks anymore. So I think what you're raising up 155 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 1: is the fear that there aren't any checks in place. 156 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 1: You know, Fortunately, there still is a legal apparatus. I mean, 157 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 1: even if Congress isn't standing up shouting and complaining, it's 158 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: still the case the president can't just do whatever he wants, 159 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 1: and hopefully the courts, you know, would would step in. 160 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:42,319 Speaker 1: I use the word hopefully. I think courts will step 161 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 1: in to limit his ability to do things that go 162 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: beyond to statutory power. So the bigger danger, I think 163 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 1: is that through law itself, Congress seedes more and more 164 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 1: power to the president with a new legislation. So if 165 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: Congress were to pass new legislation giving the president more 166 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 1: centralized power, well that would be a concerning thing to me. 167 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 1: Let me just stop and we'll get to your next question. 168 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 3: To go. 169 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,679 Speaker 1: But we have a larger phenomenon. It's just it's not 170 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 1: just about Trump, and people don't necessarily realize this. I mean, look, 171 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:16,439 Speaker 1: I don't think that President Obama was a dictator or 172 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: had authoritarian tendencies. I was part of the Obama Biden 173 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 1: transition team, but I testified against Arnie Duncan in a 174 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 1: case or against the United States Department of Education in 175 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: twenty twelve or fourteen or something like that, because the 176 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: department was taking power that it clearly did not have 177 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 1: in regard to a no Child Left Behind waivers. And 178 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 1: you know, I told the current administration, as much as 179 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: I hate it, right, I wish we could just wipe 180 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: away student debt. I feel bad for my students who 181 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 1: have huge debt. But I said, it is beyond the 182 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: president's power to just wipe away all this debt, and 183 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 1: they did it. Anyway. The real point here is that 184 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 1: both Democrats and Republicans have been asking things of their 185 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:58,559 Speaker 1: presidents that their presidents don't have the power to do, 186 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:00,839 Speaker 1: and their presidents are doing it any right, And it's 187 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: because our Congress is broken. Our Congress isn't doing its job. 188 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 1: So citizens are demanding that our presidents do things that 189 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 1: they really don't have the power to do. 190 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 2: And that's like the big thing that I'm concerned about 191 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 2: is we talk about these things that presidents are not 192 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 2: quote unquote like allowed to do. And I feel like 193 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 2: like both Trump and Muskre now are are speed running 194 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 2: like the limits of executive power, and they are willing 195 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 2: to test the boundaries a little bit, a little bit 196 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 2: more than previous presidents, and they're willing to break the 197 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:33,679 Speaker 2: government temporarily to like their goals be enacted. And at 198 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 2: a certain point, it's really tricky when the thing that 199 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 2: you always hear is, you know, like hopefully the courts 200 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 2: will step in, hopefully they'll do something if things get 201 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 2: really bad, who will like literally stop them in terms 202 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:47,960 Speaker 2: of like the courts told them to halt the funding freeze, 203 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 2: and there is there's still grants that they are refusing 204 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 2: to issue that were already approved legally need to be 205 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 2: followed through on that they are still withholding and it's 206 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 2: it's really frightening when it comes down to like basic 207 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 2: level of like is there are people military police who 208 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 2: will enforce this that things get really bad. That's something 209 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 2: I don't have like complete confidence in anymore. 210 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 1: Well, you know, I deal with this every year at 211 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 1: the beginning of my constitutional law class. Right, this is 212 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: not a new problem. It seems more real and frightening, 213 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 1: but it's not a new problem. And so what I 214 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:23,320 Speaker 1: tell my constitutional law students is that the rule of 215 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 1: law doesn't exist because of courts. Right, it doesn't exist 216 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: because of police officers. Right, that the rule of law, 217 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: when push comes to shove, exists in the hearts and 218 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 1: minds of Americans, and if they don't believe in it, 219 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,680 Speaker 1: all is lost. Right. So, for when Brown versus Board 220 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: of Education was decided, it was reportedly the case that 221 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: the President said, you know, if the court wants to 222 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 1: desegregate schools, let it do it itself. Because guess what, 223 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 1: what's the Supreme Court. It's nine old people in one 224 00:11:56,160 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 1: building with a handful of capitol police do anything. They 225 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:02,959 Speaker 1: don't have a power to do anything. Right, So our 226 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 1: entire system really rests on good faith, or, as I 227 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 1: tell my students, like what if due to something, you know, 228 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 1: President Trump or Biden or whoever had done, the Federal 229 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 1: District Court issued an order directing US Marshals to take 230 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: President Trump into a custody. So that order goes out, 231 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: the marshals receive it, they march over to the White House, 232 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: they come in the door, and they say, we are 233 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 1: here to take the president. Signed and it's already been 234 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:34,559 Speaker 1: fast tracked by Supreme Court, signed by the Supreme Court. 235 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: The answer to whether we'll just use Biden, the answer 236 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:40,560 Speaker 1: to whether President Biden is escorted out of the White 237 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 1: House by US marshals is not a function of military 238 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 1: It's not a function of police power. It's a function 239 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 1: of when that piece of paper is held up, does 240 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: the secret Service member believe that the rule of law 241 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 1: exceeds his loyalty to the man standing behind him. Yeah, 242 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 1: that's where it's at, right, And so you know, it 243 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 1: really is a good faith litmus test. And I think 244 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 1: we used to live in an era when I think 245 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 1: we all had maybe more faith in the idea that 246 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: people put fidelity and commitment to the Constitution and the 247 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 1: law above personal loyalty. But we increasingly live in a 248 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:21,839 Speaker 1: congress and in a world, in a situation when it 249 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: seems that people put personal loyalty above the constitution at times. 250 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 2: JD. Vance was interviewed on a far right podcast about 251 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 2: like two or three years ago, and he expressed desire 252 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:49,719 Speaker 2: for what he called a quote unquote dewocification program. Jah like, 253 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:54,199 Speaker 2: sounds silly, but this is basically happening now. He extrapolated 254 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 2: and said, quote, I think Trump is going to run 255 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 2: again in twenty twenty four. I think what Trump should 256 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 2: do if I was giving him one piece of advice, 257 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:05,199 Speaker 2: fire every single mid level bureaucrat, every civil servant in 258 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:09,200 Speaker 2: the administrative state. Replace them with our people. And when 259 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:12,679 Speaker 2: the courts stop, you stand before the country and say, 260 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 2: the Chief Justice has made his ruling, now let him 261 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 2: enforce it. And I feel like we're getting closer and 262 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 2: closer to this scenario. 263 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, where did JD. Vance make this statement at 264 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 1: what context? 265 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 2: On Jack Murphy's podcast Jack Murphy is like a farret commentator. 266 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 2: Vance is invoking the political philosophy of Curtis Jarvin, who's 267 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 2: becoming increasingly popular in the new Right. While lots of 268 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 2: what must and Trump, by extension, have been doing the 269 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 2: past few weeks. Is taken pretty directly out of Curtis 270 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 2: Yarvin's playbook for seizing executive power. And I feel like 271 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 2: we're getting closer and closer to this, and so much 272 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 2: of what's happening in various agencies it is about proving 273 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 2: loyalty to Trump so that if there is some kind 274 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 2: of constitutional confrontation, people side with him. Doge is basically 275 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 2: installing loyalty tests and running through communications to like see 276 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 2: what the loyalty to Trump is for different levels of 277 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 2: administrative employees the FBI are negotiations to stay on but 278 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 2: only if they can prove their loyalty to the president. 279 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 2: And like, it's all of these scenarios that again, like 280 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 2: originally would be kind of far fetched. When you're hearing 281 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 2: someone like Jdvans talk about this a few years ago 282 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 2: on some like right wing podcast. That's one thing to 283 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 2: watch this like happen in real time. For people like 284 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 2: me who study like this type of like more like 285 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 2: esoteric far right political theory, it's kind of surreal to 286 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 2: watch the type of thing that you've been like writing 287 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 2: about and thinking about, like on background for years now happen. 288 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 2: I just kind of rambled there. But do you have 289 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 2: any like, I guess, thoughts on like this idea that 290 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 2: like Vance is talking about in terms of like creating 291 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 2: this constitutional crisis. 292 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: Well, I mean, look, I tend to be I tend 293 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: to be the guy in the room that says, let's 294 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: not let's not overreact, let's let's see what happens. You 295 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 1: know that there's a lot of you know, institutional history, 296 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: and there's a lot of Americans who I think the 297 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: majority are good and decent people, and they don't they 298 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 1: don't want authoritarianism. So this this is me right, this 299 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 1: is my predisposition. But a week or so ago I 300 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 1: had a huge crisis of confidence, shall we say. There 301 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 1: were just a few events in the news that I 302 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: was just like, I just never thought that this would 303 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: happen in America. I never thought a governor would I mean, 304 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 1: some of this was what governors were doing. I never 305 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 1: thought a governor would do that. I never thought a 306 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: president would do that. I just never thought, you know, 307 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 1: never thought, never thought. And so I said to myself, 308 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 1: you know, are any of my opinions or projections, you know, 309 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: valid anymore? Because I'm the guy who never thought. And 310 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 1: so that was that was you know, that was a 311 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: tough twenty four hours for me. I'll have to say. So, 312 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 1: you know, I don't know if like I just rebooted 313 00:16:55,280 --> 00:17:00,120 Speaker 1: and for self sanity and move forward, or you know, know, 314 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: whether there is still some truth and reason to believe 315 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 1: in certain stability. And I mean, I will say this, 316 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:09,880 Speaker 1: you know, as we started this conversation, the fact that 317 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: the White House is conceding that it can't do everything 318 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:15,719 Speaker 1: to the Department of Education that it wants to do 319 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 1: without Congress is a good thing. If you read the 320 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 1: five executive orders or for however many they've already issued there, 321 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 1: it's a good thing that actually, if you read them carefully, 322 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 1: it's mostly directing appointees to think about stuff, not actually 323 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 1: do stuff, but to think about stuff. And of course 324 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: the president can appoint them to think about stuff. If 325 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 1: they do the stuff they're thinking about, that becomes a problem. 326 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 1: But again, it is this sort of like can I 327 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: grab a headline about what would sound like an awful 328 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 1: you know, reality, But really all I've done is type 329 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 1: of to think about that reality. You know, that gives 330 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:58,159 Speaker 1: me some faith, right, And notwithstanding the fact that this 331 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 1: United States Supreme Court, you know, granted an immunity to 332 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 1: all presidents that I never could have imagined. You know, 333 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 1: this court does, you know, issue opinions that surprise us 334 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: every single term, and they line up with the rule 335 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 1: of law. It's just it's unpredictable to some extent which 336 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,399 Speaker 1: which opinions those are going to be. So I have 337 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 1: this faith, you know, these sort of pieces of of 338 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:26,239 Speaker 1: the puzzle that still suggests we're still democracy and are 339 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:28,679 Speaker 1: going to remain one. But you know, I have I 340 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 1: have my really bad days. I think, like you know, 341 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people have a bad day 342 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 1: every day right now. It's you know, I just feel 343 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: thankful minor mineor fewer and further between than others. And 344 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:39,399 Speaker 1: maybe that's just psychological coping. I don't know. 345 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:53,680 Speaker 2: Let's let's I guess close. We're talking about disunion and 346 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:56,400 Speaker 2: and how that relates to the general feeling I think 347 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 2: a lot of people are experiencing around the country as 348 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 2: well as you know, linking back again to the attacks 349 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 2: on the Department of Education. 350 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I spent a pretty good deal of time on 351 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: this disunion question in my new book, Dangerous Learning, because 352 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,360 Speaker 1: I'm most of that book is focused on the three 353 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 1: decades leading up to the Civil War, so that like 354 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:17,680 Speaker 1: the Civil War doesn't just happen overnight, it happens over 355 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 1: the course of late eighteen twenties to the eighteen sixty 356 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 1: with the South is saber rattling over and over again 357 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: openly talking about disunion. Right, so that you had a 358 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,199 Speaker 1: South that actually was diverse in lots of ways in 359 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 1: its opinions about various things. I'm not going to say 360 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,879 Speaker 1: that that there were a bunch of abolitionis, but there 361 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 1: was a manumissioned society in North Carolina in eighteen twenty 362 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 1: nine that had I think sixteen hundred members. Right. The 363 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 1: very idea of sixteen hundred you know, anti slavery advocates 364 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 1: in North Carolina the eighteen twenties is shocking to a 365 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 1: lot of people, right, But ten years later, only twelve 366 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: people show up to the final meeting, right, So you 367 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 1: had something that changed there, right, And so you have 368 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: this sort of period of escalating disunion and censorship and 369 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:07,439 Speaker 1: propaganda and sort of policing what is publicly you know, 370 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,479 Speaker 1: acceptable commentary in the South. All this stuff is happening 371 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: sort of going in and you know, editing, their sort 372 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 1: of censoring textbooks, you know, demanding that books only be 373 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 1: written by Southerners, like, oh, I make it go on 374 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:21,199 Speaker 1: and on and on. We don't have time for it. 375 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:25,200 Speaker 1: What I point out, though, in my analysis of what's 376 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: going on, you know right now over the last few 377 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 1: years of education, is that there are a lot of 378 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,919 Speaker 1: policies that are attacking public education in the way that 379 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 1: they previously had, And a lot of them are symbolic 380 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: of disunion instincts, right, sort of just sort of anti government, right, 381 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: anti sort of whatever the current culture is. And then 382 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,919 Speaker 1: there's actually policies that I argue are facilitating disunion. And 383 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: one of those that I talk about is our public 384 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 1: school voucher. I say, private school vouchers. You are so 385 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:00,919 Speaker 1: upset with you're so raging at the public school system 386 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,679 Speaker 1: that we need private school vouchers, right, and we are 387 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: effectively paying, We're going to pay individuals to leave the 388 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: public school system. And I call this a coded call 389 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 1: for disunion, even if people don't think that's what they're doing. 390 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 1: If we look back at where we started this conversation, 391 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 1: which is institution of public education as something upon which 392 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:25,160 Speaker 1: American democracy has been built, of course it has lots 393 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:27,400 Speaker 1: of flaws and it wasn't perfect, but it's been part 394 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:29,920 Speaker 1: of how we build a democracy. It's always been a 395 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:34,360 Speaker 1: bipartisan project. Now becoming the thing that we rage against, 396 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:36,680 Speaker 1: now becoming the thing in which we are going to 397 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:41,879 Speaker 1: finance exit from right, This is a step towards disunion 398 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:46,920 Speaker 1: from a fundamental institution of American democracy. What happens to 399 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 1: us if they actually execute on that plan. I shudder 400 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 1: to think about where we might be, because it's not 401 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: just some private school that's the equivalent of the public school. 402 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 1: We're talking about people on the public dollar retreating into 403 00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 1: the religious silos, into their racial silos, into their culture silos. 404 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:08,680 Speaker 1: And if there's anything I think that we could all 405 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: agree on, is listening to only the people that you 406 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 1: like on Twitter or listening only to the people that 407 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,880 Speaker 1: you like for the evening news is what got us here. 408 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:21,159 Speaker 1: And if what we have is education that becomes the 409 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:26,159 Speaker 1: equivalent of MSNBC and Fox News and Newsmax and you 410 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 1: know whatever else like that is a dangerous place. I 411 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: don't know how we build democracy on such a system. 412 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 2: What's the solution here? I mean, like beyond people diversifying, 413 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,200 Speaker 2: where they get their media from, and like for vast 414 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 2: pats of the country, I think that that line's been 415 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 2: crossed a long time ago if you look at the 416 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:50,400 Speaker 2: way like Twitter functions, the way that people just exist 417 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 2: in their bubbles and are happy to like people don't 418 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 2: want to hear anything else, and with the most hostility 419 00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 2: coming from like both extreme mends. Yeah, I don't know 420 00:22:59,480 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 2: how to. 421 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 1: Get this problem. 422 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 2: This is something that you know, we've thought about a 423 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:06,360 Speaker 2: lot the past eight years, but certainly longer. 424 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 1: Well, I'll say this, you know, public schools can't solve 425 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: all of democracy's problem. You know, be a fool to 426 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 1: say otherwise. But if what we're doing is talking about 427 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,920 Speaker 1: education itself, I think number one is that I think 428 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:22,439 Speaker 1: our leaders need to understand better understand the dangers of 429 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,160 Speaker 1: you know, vouchers for instance, Like right now and I'm 430 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,920 Speaker 1: writing about this, like they think it's just a policy dispute, 431 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: and like, if you just look at the surface level, 432 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 1: it's like, well, who cares if we give some more 433 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 1: vouchers and that makes the most far reaches of our 434 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 1: party happy. But like I think sort of really stepping 435 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: back and appreciating how dangerous this is to our democracy 436 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 1: is step one, and that's hard, right, I'm talking about 437 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 1: teaching adults to see things differently than what they currently 438 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 1: see them. But as to our schools, I mean, I've 439 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: got a little bit of stiff medicine for both sides. 440 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 1: I mean, I do think that in the push for 441 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 1: more justice in our public schools, and I think we 442 00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 1: do need. I mean, that's what I've devoted my career to. 443 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 1: I do think that, well, I don't think our schools 444 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 1: did any of the any of the awful stuff that 445 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,119 Speaker 1: you know that the right has said, but I do 446 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,399 Speaker 1: think that they maybe were not as open to people 447 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,239 Speaker 1: disagreeing with them as they should have been. And what 448 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 1: I really mean is in the push for justice, I 449 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,919 Speaker 1: think there was a bit of shutting down conversation, not 450 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: teaching children to reach their own conclusions, but giving them 451 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,199 Speaker 1: conclusions and expecting them to reach them. And so one 452 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: of the things I'm working on my new book is that, like, 453 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 1: I really think we have to rethink how we teach history, 454 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,879 Speaker 1: you know, how we teach literature. Maybe not so much literature. 455 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:36,959 Speaker 1: I think our literature teachers are pretty good, but rethink 456 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 1: how we teach those things such that we are not 457 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 1: committed to our children reaching particular conclusions. What we're committed 458 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 1: to is our children engaging in free and open thought 459 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:51,120 Speaker 1: amongst themselves, right with hopefully an adult in the room 460 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: that can you establish some guidelines. But I think, you know, 461 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,360 Speaker 1: public education didn't do that very well five years ago, 462 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 1: ten years ago, go thirty years ago when I was there. 463 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,879 Speaker 1: But I think in this moment of cultural fracture, we 464 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 1: do really have to commit to free speech, open debate, inquiry, 465 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 1: listening harder, thinking harder, right, not just bullet points, not 466 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 1: just bullet points. 467 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:21,160 Speaker 2: What would cross the rubicon for you? People throw around 468 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 2: the term constitutional crisis? What would actually happen that would 469 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 2: make that something that you that you would be like 470 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,439 Speaker 2: this like it, like like it is happening? What is 471 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 2: that like make or break moment? 472 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,359 Speaker 1: You wanted me to imagine a realistic one or just 473 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: sort of give you some sort of example that makes sense. 474 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 2: No, like like, what what would that be like for you? 475 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,400 Speaker 2: Because like, I think everyone has their own personal rubric 476 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,359 Speaker 2: for like like what is too far in my mind? 477 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,679 Speaker 2: Like what is something that's like this is this is 478 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 2: completely unacceptable? And for some people this this may have 479 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 2: already happened but like in terms of like legitimate like 480 00:25:55,040 --> 00:26:00,119 Speaker 2: constitutional crisis, what is that for you? 481 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,239 Speaker 1: Well, let's just rewind and this is I guess an 482 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 1: example of why you know, someone still got their finger 483 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 1: in the dam, holding back holding it together. You know, 484 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 1: the President of the United States asserted unilateral authority over 485 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: the entire federal budget when he came into office, right, 486 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,399 Speaker 1: he does not have that power. Federal district court and 487 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:27,399 Speaker 1: joined it. He then backed down from that. Right, but 488 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,880 Speaker 1: let's say he didn't back down. It's like, well, okay, 489 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,679 Speaker 1: you know maybe you know as a district court, but 490 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 1: if the United States Supreme Court or Court of Appeals 491 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: told the president you lack the authority to to quest 492 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 1: of those funds, and he still did it. So just 493 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,440 Speaker 1: the budget, that's it. Just the budget, you know, just 494 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,360 Speaker 1: the belief that the president can spend our money however 495 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 1: he wants, with no with no constraint, and that would 496 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: be crossing the rubicon. Now, I'll tell you. And this 497 00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 1: is why you know you had to kind of be 498 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,399 Speaker 1: like constant a law professor, or well, you don't have 499 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: to be a constitutional law professor, but you've been following it. 500 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,439 Speaker 1: It's like, you know, I have been alarmed, And this 501 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:11,680 Speaker 1: goes back, this isn't just a Trump problem, Like I 502 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 1: was alarmed with the NCLB waivers. Probably nobody in this 503 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 1: even knows what I'm talking about, right, like, you know, 504 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 1: a decade ago, not that like President Obama was like 505 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 1: going to take over the country, but alarmed that somehow 506 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 1: another he thinks he can do this, Like why is 507 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 1: he even testing the boundaries this way? 508 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 2: Like executive power has been steadily expanding certainly. 509 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so but I was like, you know, you 510 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:33,919 Speaker 1: can kind of get it. There was some gray area 511 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 1: this where he kind of need to be a constitutional 512 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 1: law professor to kind of figure out why that was 513 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: such a big deal. But when Biden, I mean think back, 514 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 1: and again I don't begrudge people needing their debts relief, 515 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 1: but when President Biden effectively asserted the power to allocate 516 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 1: federal dollars to pay off debts, that was like, you know, 517 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 1: half of the discretionary funds of the entire federal government, 518 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 1: Like that's a big move to just yeah, I can 519 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,639 Speaker 1: commit this nation to a fifty percent increase it's in 520 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 1: its fiscal outlays tomorrow. That's not constitutional democracy. But now right, 521 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 1: we have a present going even further than that. But 522 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:17,199 Speaker 1: he liked Biden at least thus far, stepped back at 523 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,640 Speaker 1: least from the district court right when the court said can't. 524 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 1: So it's really that sort of defying of the court 525 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,120 Speaker 1: at that point. Yeah, they've all been pushing the boundaries. 526 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,679 Speaker 1: He's pushed them further thus far. They've all complied with 527 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 1: judicial orders, but it would be the refusal to comply 528 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:32,160 Speaker 1: with judicial order. 529 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 2: I mean, I guess the main difference there for me 530 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 2: relates back to what you said about acting in good faith. 531 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 2: Something that people on the left I think get mad 532 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 2: about sometimes is Democrats seeming a complete commitment to acting 533 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 2: in good faith sometimes. And it certainly appears that that 534 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 2: Trump is willing to push a little bit farther, especially 535 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 2: in terms of like tests for loyalty. And it's at 536 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 2: a certain point, like if he does something really bad 537 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 2: at least for these next two years, like I don't 538 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 2: see a way that he'll get like impeached or removed 539 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 2: from office, Like certainly not with this to send it, 540 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 2: not with this Congress, like that check and balance just 541 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 2: no longer is viable due to the last election, and 542 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 2: acting with that popular mandate has I think given them 543 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 2: a bit more courage on their side to go, you know, 544 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 2: a little bit further, play, a little bit more fast 545 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 2: and loose some of these like checks and balances than 546 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 2: what we've like previously seen. But this is certainly still 547 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 2: still developing. 548 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 1: Well, the thing that really sort of jumps out at me, 549 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 1: and I was telling some you know, several reporters, is 550 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 1: that you're right, he's pushing it further. It looks scarier. 551 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 1: But part of why it's scarier, to be quite honest, well, 552 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: I think it's scarier is that he's doing it out 553 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 1: in the open. I mean, on some level, some of 554 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 1: this stuff like telling people to cook up crazy plans 555 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 1: to do this that like presidents have been doing that, 556 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 1: like you know, Nixon was, Yeah, Nixon was paranoid. He 557 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 1: was like, like, this is what presidents do, but it's 558 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 1: not appropriate to do it in public, right, you do 559 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 1: it behind closed doors. You know, offer some plausible rational 560 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 1: rationalization for what you're doing, and you know, you minimize it, 561 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 1: act like it's no big deal. What's startling here is 562 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 1: that he is out in the open expressing his designs 563 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: to us, giving us the sort of thoughts, and that's 564 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 1: very unusual, and it does show that what's acceptable from 565 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 1: public officials is much different now because had, you know, 566 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 1: had Nixon shared his designs with the American public, he 567 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 1: wouldn't have made it as long as he did, you know, 568 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 1: and probably true of a lot of other presidents, they 569 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:42,240 Speaker 1: would have been gone. So what's actually acceptable as public 570 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:47,240 Speaker 1: behavior has clearly changed, what's acceptable as a policy agenda 571 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 1: has clearly changed. And so he's just putting it out there. 572 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 1: He's putting his dirty laundry out there, and people are like, oh, 573 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:52,959 Speaker 1: this is normal. 574 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:55,720 Speaker 2: Unless you have anything else to add. Do you want 575 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 2: to talk about where people can find you and your writing? 576 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I'm on Blue Sky more recently, still 577 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 1: on on Twitter, I sort of have, you know, just 578 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 1: lots of friends on there, so I'm still there. But 579 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 1: to me too, yeah, you know, I'm not on there 580 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 1: as often as I used to be. You know, I 581 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 1: give up blogging a long time ago, so, you know, 582 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: as we drink out of a fire hydrant, you know, 583 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time just trying to explain 584 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,719 Speaker 1: basic things about public education to reporters. But you can 585 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 1: find me there. I'm a professor of law at the 586 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 1: University of South Carolina, and like I said, you know, 587 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 1: dangerous learning just came out, you know, a week or 588 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 1: so ago, really helping us, I think, helping us to 589 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 1: see this current moment through a long lens of war 590 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 1: on black equality, black freedom, and to be quite honest, 591 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 1: just free and open debate. We've had those wars before 592 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,240 Speaker 1: and and we scarily are having them again. 593 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:51,480 Speaker 3: All right, thank as much, Thank you. It Could Happen 594 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 3: Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For more 595 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 3: podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool Zonemedia 596 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 3: dot com, or check us out from the iHeartRadio app, 597 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 598 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 3: now find sources for It Could Happen Here, listed directly 599 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 3: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.