1 00:00:15,516 --> 00:00:23,116 Speaker 1: Pushkin. This special episode of the Happiness Lab is brought 2 00:00:23,156 --> 00:00:26,436 Speaker 1: to you by State Farm, like a good neighbor, State 3 00:00:26,476 --> 00:00:35,596 Speaker 1: Farm is there for our special show on World Mental 4 00:00:35,636 --> 00:00:38,436 Speaker 1: Health Day. I assembled a group of well being experts 5 00:00:38,516 --> 00:00:42,116 Speaker 1: I like to call the Titans of Happiness, Doctor Joy 6 00:00:42,156 --> 00:00:46,916 Speaker 1: Harden Bradford, Gretchen Rubin, Dan Harris, and Sesame Street's Elbow. 7 00:00:46,716 --> 00:00:51,116 Speaker 2: Titans of Happiness, Doc Annoyd. What's a Titan, How's a Master? 8 00:00:53,916 --> 00:00:55,516 Speaker 1: It was a super fun crew to hang out with, 9 00:00:55,716 --> 00:00:58,316 Speaker 1: but most importantly, we covered a lot of ground. We 10 00:00:58,356 --> 00:01:01,076 Speaker 1: gave you some of the most effective and easiest happiness 11 00:01:01,076 --> 00:01:04,636 Speaker 1: hacks around. But this year's World Mental Health Day was 12 00:01:04,676 --> 00:01:08,036 Speaker 1: dedicated to happiness in the workplace, a topic that's way 13 00:01:08,036 --> 00:01:10,116 Speaker 1: too big to fit into just one show. So I'm 14 00:01:10,116 --> 00:01:12,756 Speaker 1: bringing you another two episodes on the subject of work 15 00:01:12,796 --> 00:01:15,476 Speaker 1: and well being. And I asked one of my happiness Titans, 16 00:01:15,596 --> 00:01:19,036 Speaker 1: Dan Harris, to return to the show to help. And 17 00:01:19,076 --> 00:01:21,796 Speaker 1: the topic of happiness at work is one that's pretty 18 00:01:21,796 --> 00:01:25,116 Speaker 1: important for Dan. In fact, Dan's entire foray into the 19 00:01:25,156 --> 00:01:29,036 Speaker 1: study of happiness began after a very unfortunate incident on 20 00:01:29,076 --> 00:01:29,796 Speaker 1: the job. 21 00:01:30,156 --> 00:01:32,956 Speaker 3: Two thousand and four, a little bit over twenty years ago, 22 00:01:33,036 --> 00:01:37,276 Speaker 3: I was on Good Morning America filling in as what 23 00:01:37,476 --> 00:01:40,476 Speaker 3: was called the newsreader. We don't really have this job anymore, 24 00:01:40,516 --> 00:01:42,516 Speaker 3: but back then there would be somebody who would come 25 00:01:42,556 --> 00:01:45,596 Speaker 3: on at the top of each hour. So the morning 26 00:01:45,636 --> 00:01:47,756 Speaker 3: shows at that time went from seven to nine. And 27 00:01:47,836 --> 00:01:50,076 Speaker 3: Robin Roberts, who is now the main host of Good 28 00:01:50,076 --> 00:01:52,316 Speaker 3: Morning America, her job then was to come on and 29 00:01:52,356 --> 00:01:54,636 Speaker 3: read a set of headlines at the top of the 30 00:01:54,676 --> 00:01:57,196 Speaker 3: seven and the eight o'clock hour, and I was filling 31 00:01:57,236 --> 00:02:00,676 Speaker 3: in for her on this June morning. And I had 32 00:02:00,716 --> 00:02:03,596 Speaker 3: done this many times before. I wasn't nervous going in, 33 00:02:04,076 --> 00:02:06,556 Speaker 3: but a few seconds into my shtick, I was supposed 34 00:02:06,556 --> 00:02:11,036 Speaker 3: to read six brief news items off of the teleprompter. 35 00:02:11,396 --> 00:02:14,236 Speaker 3: And by the way, I was thirty two or something 36 00:02:14,276 --> 00:02:15,996 Speaker 3: like that at the time. I had for more than 37 00:02:16,036 --> 00:02:19,676 Speaker 3: ten years been on television reading off of a teleprompter, 38 00:02:20,636 --> 00:02:23,316 Speaker 3: so I really just to set the table here. I 39 00:02:23,356 --> 00:02:27,556 Speaker 3: didn't have any idea about what was about to happen. 40 00:02:28,236 --> 00:02:30,956 Speaker 3: I was not prepared, and a few seconds into my thing, 41 00:02:31,396 --> 00:02:35,076 Speaker 3: I just kind of lost it. My hearts was raising, 42 00:02:35,196 --> 00:02:38,836 Speaker 3: my palms were sweating, my mouth dried up, my lungs 43 00:02:38,956 --> 00:02:39,516 Speaker 3: seized up. 44 00:02:39,596 --> 00:02:41,116 Speaker 2: I lost the ability to. 45 00:02:41,076 --> 00:02:44,716 Speaker 3: Speak, which is deeply inconvenient if you're anchoring the news, 46 00:02:44,836 --> 00:02:47,716 Speaker 3: and I had to kind of squeak out a back 47 00:02:47,756 --> 00:02:50,436 Speaker 3: to you, Charlie and Diane. The main hosts of the 48 00:02:50,436 --> 00:02:53,116 Speaker 3: show at the time were Diane Sawyer and Charlie Gibson. 49 00:02:53,196 --> 00:02:56,676 Speaker 3: And you know, I kind of got away with it 50 00:02:56,716 --> 00:02:59,436 Speaker 3: in that it was if you look at it, actually, 51 00:02:59,436 --> 00:03:01,756 Speaker 3: if you google panic attack on television, it's the number 52 00:03:01,796 --> 00:03:04,516 Speaker 3: one result, which is my mom is very proud of that. 53 00:03:04,796 --> 00:03:05,516 Speaker 2: If you look at it. 54 00:03:05,636 --> 00:03:07,756 Speaker 3: For many people who especially people who've never had a 55 00:03:07,756 --> 00:03:10,836 Speaker 3: panic attack before, it does look that bad. I kind 56 00:03:10,836 --> 00:03:13,556 Speaker 3: of hold it together, I know when I look at it, 57 00:03:13,596 --> 00:03:15,116 Speaker 3: and a lot of people, you know, my mom, who 58 00:03:15,156 --> 00:03:17,876 Speaker 3: was watching live, knew exactly what was happening. But the 59 00:03:17,876 --> 00:03:22,276 Speaker 3: people in the studio were concerned. But when I lied 60 00:03:22,316 --> 00:03:24,396 Speaker 3: to them, and I'm not proud to admit this, but 61 00:03:24,436 --> 00:03:26,276 Speaker 3: I did lie and say, yeah, you know, I don't 62 00:03:26,316 --> 00:03:29,436 Speaker 3: know what happened, I'm fine, they kind of let it pass. 63 00:03:29,836 --> 00:03:32,476 Speaker 3: But I actually knew exactly what had happened. I had 64 00:03:32,596 --> 00:03:35,196 Speaker 3: I had had little moments of this on television before 65 00:03:35,716 --> 00:03:38,076 Speaker 3: I had dealt with stage fright. For a long time, 66 00:03:38,196 --> 00:03:41,116 Speaker 3: I sometimes joked that my career has been a triumph 67 00:03:41,156 --> 00:03:42,596 Speaker 3: of narcissism over fear. 68 00:03:42,636 --> 00:03:45,156 Speaker 2: And I really. 69 00:03:44,916 --> 00:03:47,596 Speaker 3: Wanted to be on TV and I loved the job. 70 00:03:47,756 --> 00:03:50,316 Speaker 3: But I did have this, you know, bedrock stage fright 71 00:03:50,436 --> 00:03:53,876 Speaker 3: I had. I had, however, never had anything that strong, 72 00:03:54,036 --> 00:03:56,556 Speaker 3: and so that moment turned out to be one of 73 00:03:56,596 --> 00:03:57,796 Speaker 3: the seminal moments of my life. 74 00:03:57,796 --> 00:03:59,156 Speaker 2: In my career too, and I met. 75 00:03:58,996 --> 00:04:01,676 Speaker 1: At the moment, you didn't necessarily think that, right, I mean, 76 00:04:01,676 --> 00:04:04,276 Speaker 1: at the moment, it must have felt like a profound failure, 77 00:04:04,476 --> 00:04:07,356 Speaker 1: like an enormous screw up, like on live television. 78 00:04:07,756 --> 00:04:09,996 Speaker 2: A million percent. Yes, that's exactly what it felt like. 79 00:04:10,076 --> 00:04:16,476 Speaker 3: I felt totally humiliated and terrified that I was not 80 00:04:16,516 --> 00:04:18,356 Speaker 3: going to be able to do this job anymore, that 81 00:04:18,396 --> 00:04:20,436 Speaker 3: I was just going to this was going to just 82 00:04:20,556 --> 00:04:23,276 Speaker 3: keep on happening. There was no silver lining in the moment, 83 00:04:23,596 --> 00:04:24,196 Speaker 3: But in. 84 00:04:24,156 --> 00:04:25,916 Speaker 1: The future, you were able to turn this into a 85 00:04:25,996 --> 00:04:27,836 Speaker 1: huge benefit. You were able to learn from this. So 86 00:04:27,836 --> 00:04:29,156 Speaker 1: tell me what kind of happened next. 87 00:04:29,316 --> 00:04:31,236 Speaker 3: Yeah, I've been dining out on this shit for a 88 00:04:31,276 --> 00:04:38,596 Speaker 3: long Well, nothing much happened initially, Just to you know, 89 00:04:38,716 --> 00:04:41,036 Speaker 3: I don't know. You know, many of your listeners may 90 00:04:41,036 --> 00:04:43,836 Speaker 3: not have been of age in two thousand and four, 91 00:04:44,436 --> 00:04:46,996 Speaker 3: and for those of you who were, you may not 92 00:04:47,076 --> 00:04:51,156 Speaker 3: remember this, or maybe you do. But public discussions of 93 00:04:51,196 --> 00:04:54,716 Speaker 3: mental health were quite limited at that time, so it 94 00:04:54,756 --> 00:04:56,996 Speaker 3: wasn't like I could turn around a week later and 95 00:04:56,996 --> 00:04:59,196 Speaker 3: say I had a panic attack and I'm going to 96 00:04:59,276 --> 00:05:02,556 Speaker 3: turn this into some sort of public health message that 97 00:05:02,596 --> 00:05:06,076 Speaker 3: people might rally around. No, there was none of that 98 00:05:06,156 --> 00:05:08,636 Speaker 3: at the time. So that's why I really felt compelled 99 00:05:08,676 --> 00:05:11,396 Speaker 3: to lie, because I knew this was not the type 100 00:05:11,396 --> 00:05:14,556 Speaker 3: of thing I could safely share with my bosses. What 101 00:05:14,596 --> 00:05:16,876 Speaker 3: did happen is that I ended up My mother, who 102 00:05:17,196 --> 00:05:20,036 Speaker 3: was watching and was at the time quite a prominent 103 00:05:20,156 --> 00:05:24,556 Speaker 3: academic physician at Harvard and also very interested in her 104 00:05:24,556 --> 00:05:27,236 Speaker 3: son's well being, got me in to see a shrink, 105 00:05:27,556 --> 00:05:31,996 Speaker 3: a psychiatrist, and he diagnosed right away what was going 106 00:05:31,996 --> 00:05:35,556 Speaker 3: on because I didn't have a sense of why this 107 00:05:35,596 --> 00:05:37,116 Speaker 3: had happened. I knew it was a panic attack, but 108 00:05:37,156 --> 00:05:40,116 Speaker 3: I didn't know why. And he asked me a question, 109 00:05:40,156 --> 00:05:44,996 Speaker 3: which was due to drugs. I sheepishly said yes, and 110 00:05:43,596 --> 00:05:47,236 Speaker 3: he didn't say this, but he gave me a look 111 00:05:47,476 --> 00:05:52,716 Speaker 3: that said Okay, as whole mystery solved. Now we know 112 00:05:52,756 --> 00:05:56,436 Speaker 3: what happened, just briefly, as a backstory, I had started 113 00:05:56,476 --> 00:05:58,916 Speaker 3: doing cocaine after spending a lot of time in war 114 00:05:59,036 --> 00:06:03,516 Speaker 3: zones after nine to eleven, and I wasn't high on 115 00:06:03,556 --> 00:06:06,996 Speaker 3: the air, but it was enough that ambient drug use 116 00:06:07,076 --> 00:06:10,236 Speaker 3: was enough for my shrink to change my brain chemistry 117 00:06:10,276 --> 00:06:12,356 Speaker 3: and make it more likely for me to have a 118 00:06:12,396 --> 00:06:16,316 Speaker 3: panic attack. So under his tutelage, I quit doing drugs 119 00:06:16,636 --> 00:06:20,196 Speaker 3: and began quite intensive therapy for about ten years. And 120 00:06:20,356 --> 00:06:23,916 Speaker 3: in the course of those ten years, I started getting 121 00:06:23,916 --> 00:06:27,516 Speaker 3: interested in meditation, in part because of his influence, although 122 00:06:27,556 --> 00:06:30,836 Speaker 3: he doesn't meditate himself, and in part because I was 123 00:06:30,916 --> 00:06:35,036 Speaker 3: just reading more broadly about mental health. And so when 124 00:06:35,116 --> 00:06:38,596 Speaker 3: I started getting interested in meditation, I realized there was 125 00:06:38,676 --> 00:06:41,476 Speaker 3: at that time a not very well publicized, but quite 126 00:06:41,596 --> 00:06:46,236 Speaker 3: robust body of scientific research that suggested that meditation could 127 00:06:46,236 --> 00:06:49,756 Speaker 3: have a bunch of health benefits. And yet many of 128 00:06:49,796 --> 00:06:52,956 Speaker 3: the books that I was reading about meditation didn't speak 129 00:06:52,996 --> 00:06:55,316 Speaker 3: to me. I mean, I could get through it, but 130 00:06:55,356 --> 00:06:58,796 Speaker 3: they were quite annoying. And so I wanted to write 131 00:06:58,836 --> 00:07:01,516 Speaker 3: a book that used the F word a lot and 132 00:07:01,596 --> 00:07:06,236 Speaker 3: told embarrassing stories, and so I led that the book 133 00:07:06,276 --> 00:07:08,316 Speaker 3: I wrote about it, which was called ten Percent Happier, 134 00:07:08,356 --> 00:07:11,076 Speaker 3: which is now ten yearsyears old. I led that book 135 00:07:11,116 --> 00:07:13,036 Speaker 3: with the story of the panic attack and how it 136 00:07:13,116 --> 00:07:17,316 Speaker 3: put me on this path to discovering meditation and all 137 00:07:17,356 --> 00:07:19,636 Speaker 3: of the interesting things that happened after that. 138 00:07:20,196 --> 00:07:22,276 Speaker 1: And so that, though, was one of only the first 139 00:07:22,396 --> 00:07:24,916 Speaker 1: times that you use moments of failure to kind of 140 00:07:24,996 --> 00:07:28,276 Speaker 1: learn and generate new career paths and so on. You've 141 00:07:28,276 --> 00:07:30,956 Speaker 1: also had a more recent example of this, which you've 142 00:07:30,956 --> 00:07:34,116 Speaker 1: referred to as your career earthquake. So I'm curious what 143 00:07:34,156 --> 00:07:37,436 Speaker 1: that was and how that failure has changed things for you. 144 00:07:37,596 --> 00:07:39,196 Speaker 3: Well, thank you for pointing out that I continue to 145 00:07:39,196 --> 00:07:40,236 Speaker 3: fuck things up on the regular. 146 00:07:40,276 --> 00:07:41,356 Speaker 2: I appreciate that. 147 00:07:42,436 --> 00:07:44,156 Speaker 1: This is an episode about how to fail better, and 148 00:07:44,196 --> 00:07:46,276 Speaker 1: I feel like, of folks who failed pretty well, you 149 00:07:46,316 --> 00:07:47,956 Speaker 1: are definitely one of my favorite examples. 150 00:07:47,996 --> 00:07:50,396 Speaker 2: So I'm nailing it. I am nailing it. 151 00:07:51,196 --> 00:07:53,356 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, just one thing to say by way 152 00:07:53,396 --> 00:07:55,996 Speaker 3: of context to it, because sometimes people say to me, 153 00:07:56,676 --> 00:08:02,476 Speaker 3: you know, you are quite anxious for an alleged happiness 154 00:08:02,516 --> 00:08:06,196 Speaker 3: expert or a quasi self help guru, and to me 155 00:08:06,316 --> 00:08:11,716 Speaker 3: that gets the causality wrong. I have become an expert 156 00:08:12,076 --> 00:08:15,236 Speaker 3: or a quote unquote expert in this stuff. I would say, 157 00:08:16,196 --> 00:08:18,396 Speaker 3: not as much of an expert as you know, in 158 00:08:18,436 --> 00:08:21,796 Speaker 3: that I'm not a scientist and I don't have a 159 00:08:21,876 --> 00:08:24,156 Speaker 3: full grasp of the research in the way you do. 160 00:08:24,236 --> 00:08:26,636 Speaker 3: And we'll talk about some of that coming up. But 161 00:08:28,396 --> 00:08:32,396 Speaker 3: I am a flawed person. I continue to be a 162 00:08:32,396 --> 00:08:34,516 Speaker 3: flawed person, and I would and I try to be 163 00:08:34,596 --> 00:08:39,076 Speaker 3: open about that as a way to normalize other people's flaws. 164 00:08:39,596 --> 00:08:43,716 Speaker 3: There's an expression. I don't know who said this, but 165 00:08:43,836 --> 00:08:48,356 Speaker 3: this expression cathartic normalization, and that's like my whole brand. 166 00:08:48,396 --> 00:08:52,036 Speaker 3: I'm just a journalist who's been meditating for a while 167 00:08:52,236 --> 00:08:56,116 Speaker 3: and very interested, you know, on my own podcast, in 168 00:08:56,196 --> 00:08:58,956 Speaker 3: all ways in which we can do life better. But 169 00:08:58,996 --> 00:09:01,796 Speaker 3: that doesn't mean that I'm perfected, and I'm very suspicious 170 00:09:02,156 --> 00:09:05,996 Speaker 3: of people who present themselves as perfect. Just to give 171 00:09:06,036 --> 00:09:08,756 Speaker 3: that context for the next story that you're teaming up 172 00:09:08,756 --> 00:09:11,676 Speaker 3: to tell, which is that after I wrote ten percent Happier, 173 00:09:11,956 --> 00:09:14,436 Speaker 3: I did not expect it to turn into anything. I 174 00:09:15,516 --> 00:09:19,116 Speaker 3: remember Barbara Walters, then a major figure in broadcast news, 175 00:09:19,356 --> 00:09:21,516 Speaker 3: explicitly telling me when I told her what I was 176 00:09:21,516 --> 00:09:25,076 Speaker 3: writing my book about, Don't Quit your day Job. Yeah, 177 00:09:25,116 --> 00:09:26,836 Speaker 3: so that gives you an idea of what the culture 178 00:09:26,916 --> 00:09:30,596 Speaker 3: was like. So I didn't go into the publication of 179 00:09:30,636 --> 00:09:32,636 Speaker 3: that book with anything other than fear. 180 00:09:33,036 --> 00:09:34,836 Speaker 2: But I certainly I didn't think. 181 00:09:34,996 --> 00:09:37,276 Speaker 3: I mean, I harbored some fantasies that it would be successful, 182 00:09:37,316 --> 00:09:39,516 Speaker 3: but I didn't really think it would happen. And it 183 00:09:39,596 --> 00:09:41,956 Speaker 3: just turned out that it came out at the right time, 184 00:09:42,436 --> 00:09:45,716 Speaker 3: right when meditation was starting to get cool again, and 185 00:09:46,196 --> 00:09:48,516 Speaker 3: right when we were starting to be more open about 186 00:09:48,556 --> 00:09:52,356 Speaker 3: public health mental health issues publicly, and ABC News really 187 00:09:52,396 --> 00:09:54,436 Speaker 3: got behind the book, and so it took off, which 188 00:09:54,476 --> 00:09:57,436 Speaker 3: was amazing, and it led to a bunch of opportunities, 189 00:09:57,556 --> 00:10:02,196 Speaker 3: including starting a meditation app which was called ten percent Happier, 190 00:10:02,476 --> 00:10:06,876 Speaker 3: and so that company was around for about eight years 191 00:10:07,036 --> 00:10:10,356 Speaker 3: under the name ten percent Happier. In recent years, I 192 00:10:10,476 --> 00:10:15,796 Speaker 3: developed a series of interpersonal and creative and financial differences 193 00:10:15,796 --> 00:10:20,516 Speaker 3: with my co founders, who are excellent people, Like, there's 194 00:10:20,596 --> 00:10:21,836 Speaker 3: no bad guy in this story. 195 00:10:22,316 --> 00:10:23,796 Speaker 2: You know, if there is one, maybe it's me. 196 00:10:24,236 --> 00:10:26,556 Speaker 3: Just to say I take fifty percent of the responsibility 197 00:10:26,556 --> 00:10:30,356 Speaker 3: at least for this failure. I do want to say 198 00:10:30,356 --> 00:10:33,116 Speaker 3: that they are continuing to operate the company, So I 199 00:10:33,116 --> 00:10:34,596 Speaker 3: don't want to call the company a failure. 200 00:10:34,636 --> 00:10:35,436 Speaker 2: It still exists. 201 00:10:35,476 --> 00:10:38,836 Speaker 3: It's called the Happier Meditation app, so it's no longer 202 00:10:38,876 --> 00:10:41,756 Speaker 3: called ten percent Happier. But the separation from the company 203 00:10:43,156 --> 00:10:46,156 Speaker 3: was incredibly difficult for me. I experienced a lot of 204 00:10:46,196 --> 00:10:49,996 Speaker 3: anger and fear and frustration, and there were many times 205 00:10:50,036 --> 00:10:52,956 Speaker 3: where I lost my temper and I was I lost 206 00:10:53,076 --> 00:10:55,516 Speaker 3: my ability to sleep for several years. You know, I 207 00:10:55,596 --> 00:10:59,716 Speaker 3: really took a significant toll on my mental and physical health. 208 00:11:00,316 --> 00:11:03,316 Speaker 3: If you look at pictures before this, I mean, I 209 00:11:03,316 --> 00:11:06,156 Speaker 3: had way fewer gray airs. So this is one of 210 00:11:06,156 --> 00:11:07,836 Speaker 3: the hardest things I've ever gone through, you know, because 211 00:11:07,876 --> 00:11:11,636 Speaker 3: I considered the company to be my baby, and I 212 00:11:11,636 --> 00:11:12,556 Speaker 3: don't have it anymore. 213 00:11:12,596 --> 00:11:15,156 Speaker 1: I think this story is really profound because it illustrates 214 00:11:15,156 --> 00:11:17,636 Speaker 1: a number of the different kinds of ways that failure 215 00:11:17,636 --> 00:11:19,316 Speaker 1: can affect us. I mean, a big one is just 216 00:11:19,476 --> 00:11:22,756 Speaker 1: the effect that failure can have on our health. Right, 217 00:11:22,876 --> 00:11:25,676 Speaker 1: Like you're not sleeping, you're not eating, like I mean, 218 00:11:25,716 --> 00:11:27,956 Speaker 1: you've talked about this really blootlyate that, like you just 219 00:11:28,076 --> 00:11:30,836 Speaker 1: didn't basically sleep at all for several years while this 220 00:11:30,956 --> 00:11:33,036 Speaker 1: was going on. But an even bigger one that I 221 00:11:33,036 --> 00:11:34,756 Speaker 1: think I hear in your story is this idea that 222 00:11:34,756 --> 00:11:37,476 Speaker 1: failure can really affect our identity, like our sense of 223 00:11:37,516 --> 00:11:39,116 Speaker 1: who I was. And this seems to be a big 224 00:11:39,116 --> 00:11:41,556 Speaker 1: one in your story. You'd stepped away from this role 225 00:11:41,756 --> 00:11:44,276 Speaker 1: being a kind of a newsperson for ABC. You became 226 00:11:44,436 --> 00:11:46,356 Speaker 1: this kind of you know, co CEO of a company, 227 00:11:46,876 --> 00:11:48,836 Speaker 1: and now all of a sudden that identity seems to 228 00:11:48,836 --> 00:11:50,716 Speaker 1: be kind of falling apart or at least generating lots 229 00:11:50,716 --> 00:11:52,396 Speaker 1: of conflict. How did you handle that? 230 00:11:53,036 --> 00:11:53,516 Speaker 2: Not well? 231 00:11:55,076 --> 00:11:56,836 Speaker 3: And I do want to hear some stories from you 232 00:11:56,876 --> 00:12:00,436 Speaker 3: about I'm not aware of any failures and your empathy 233 00:12:00,636 --> 00:12:02,356 Speaker 3: set that they've happened. I want to I do want 234 00:12:02,356 --> 00:12:04,036 Speaker 3: to hear about them if you're comfortable talking about it. 235 00:12:04,076 --> 00:12:06,796 Speaker 3: But I will say that you've nailed it. I mean, 236 00:12:06,916 --> 00:12:11,716 Speaker 3: you're pointing at it. One of the big points of 237 00:12:11,756 --> 00:12:14,956 Speaker 3: struggle for me was the identity piece of this. It 238 00:12:15,036 --> 00:12:20,596 Speaker 3: was embarrassing to even though the struggle behind the scenes 239 00:12:20,676 --> 00:12:23,916 Speaker 3: lasted for nearly three years, it wasn't public, but you know, 240 00:12:23,996 --> 00:12:26,036 Speaker 3: the people in my life knew about it, and I 241 00:12:26,076 --> 00:12:27,556 Speaker 3: knew eventually it was going to be public, and I 242 00:12:27,596 --> 00:12:30,556 Speaker 3: was embarrassed. I'm supposed to be, you know, mister mindfulness, 243 00:12:30,556 --> 00:12:33,956 Speaker 3: and here I am embroiled in this you know, protracted conflict. 244 00:12:34,156 --> 00:12:38,036 Speaker 3: And yeah, I felt like a fraud, honestly, and I felt, 245 00:12:38,276 --> 00:12:41,076 Speaker 3: you know, very helpless that I couldn't wave a magic 246 00:12:41,156 --> 00:12:43,636 Speaker 3: wand and make this go away because there were two 247 00:12:43,636 --> 00:12:45,836 Speaker 3: parties at the table, and we had a lot of 248 00:12:46,676 --> 00:12:49,196 Speaker 3: contracts that we had signed that needed to be unwound, 249 00:12:49,236 --> 00:12:52,436 Speaker 3: and I couldn't just make things happen my way. And 250 00:12:52,556 --> 00:12:56,116 Speaker 3: so you know that I wasn't sleeping. I started having 251 00:12:56,276 --> 00:12:59,676 Speaker 3: panic attacks again, still dealing with the reverberations of that, 252 00:12:59,716 --> 00:13:01,716 Speaker 3: you know, the panic attacks this time really started to 253 00:13:01,796 --> 00:13:06,756 Speaker 3: come in situations of claustrophobia, which my shrink, my current shrink, 254 00:13:06,756 --> 00:13:08,396 Speaker 3: has had a field day with. And so you know, 255 00:13:08,796 --> 00:13:11,796 Speaker 3: I've still struggling to get on planes and in elevators 256 00:13:11,796 --> 00:13:12,716 Speaker 3: and I'm doing it. 257 00:13:12,836 --> 00:13:13,876 Speaker 2: But you're absolutely right. 258 00:13:13,916 --> 00:13:17,836 Speaker 3: It took a big toll, and especially on the identity front. 259 00:13:17,836 --> 00:13:20,356 Speaker 3: Not only did I feel embarrassed, as you know, a 260 00:13:20,396 --> 00:13:24,236 Speaker 3: mental health spokesperson of sorts, to be in this situation, 261 00:13:24,876 --> 00:13:28,116 Speaker 3: but as you mentioned, I had retired from ABC News. 262 00:13:28,996 --> 00:13:31,116 Speaker 3: Now about three years ago, and it was right after 263 00:13:31,156 --> 00:13:34,236 Speaker 3: I retired from the news that the problems started coming 264 00:13:34,316 --> 00:13:37,036 Speaker 3: up with my co founders, and so I no longer 265 00:13:37,076 --> 00:13:40,356 Speaker 3: had my news anchor identity, and now this app that 266 00:13:40,436 --> 00:13:43,516 Speaker 3: I had poured so much of myself into was is 267 00:13:43,556 --> 00:13:47,636 Speaker 3: no longer mine. And yeah, so that's all been very challenging. 268 00:13:47,676 --> 00:13:49,796 Speaker 1: But one of the reasons we're having this conversation is 269 00:13:49,796 --> 00:13:52,156 Speaker 1: that you've managed to do really cool things from this 270 00:13:52,236 --> 00:13:55,236 Speaker 1: moment of kind of career earthquake, and also you've learned 271 00:13:55,236 --> 00:13:57,076 Speaker 1: a lot, and those are the kinds of learning so 272 00:13:57,076 --> 00:13:58,716 Speaker 1: that we're going to get to when the Happiness Lab 273 00:13:58,796 --> 00:14:17,956 Speaker 1: gets back from the break. Workplaces can be this sort 274 00:14:17,996 --> 00:14:20,516 Speaker 1: of spot that we generate lots and lots of happiness, 275 00:14:20,516 --> 00:14:23,276 Speaker 1: but they can also be these places where we experience failure. 276 00:14:23,316 --> 00:14:25,476 Speaker 1: So I think kind of looking really carefully at the 277 00:14:25,516 --> 00:14:27,756 Speaker 1: kinds of ways that we get failure wrong and the 278 00:14:27,796 --> 00:14:30,516 Speaker 1: ways that we can benefit from failure can be really important. 279 00:14:30,956 --> 00:14:33,236 Speaker 1: And I think one of the biggest teachings that it 280 00:14:33,276 --> 00:14:35,036 Speaker 1: sounds like you've come up with that you've talked about 281 00:14:35,036 --> 00:14:37,516 Speaker 1: on your show is this idea that even though failure 282 00:14:37,556 --> 00:14:39,996 Speaker 1: is really scary and it's got all these terrible elements. 283 00:14:40,156 --> 00:14:42,196 Speaker 1: It's not actually as bad as we think, like there 284 00:14:42,196 --> 00:14:44,836 Speaker 1: are benefits that can come from it. Explain what you mean. 285 00:14:44,676 --> 00:14:46,036 Speaker 2: There many benefits. 286 00:14:46,356 --> 00:14:50,036 Speaker 3: Many as somebody who fails regularly, I can tell you 287 00:14:50,036 --> 00:14:52,156 Speaker 3: there are many benefits. And I actually think that we 288 00:14:52,276 --> 00:14:54,436 Speaker 3: might even want to play with that word. I don't 289 00:14:54,436 --> 00:14:58,316 Speaker 3: know what an alternative is, but maybe it's something in 290 00:14:58,356 --> 00:15:00,116 Speaker 3: the range of experimentation. 291 00:15:00,756 --> 00:15:00,956 Speaker 1: You know. 292 00:15:01,116 --> 00:15:04,516 Speaker 3: I think we live in a pandemic of perfectionism, and 293 00:15:04,556 --> 00:15:07,436 Speaker 3: I'm sure you see this on campus with your students. 294 00:15:07,836 --> 00:15:10,396 Speaker 3: Perfectionism is really on the rise, and it is such 295 00:15:10,436 --> 00:15:14,876 Speaker 3: an insidious thing. People are unwilling to take risks because 296 00:15:14,876 --> 00:15:17,476 Speaker 3: they don't want to fail. A part that I think 297 00:15:17,476 --> 00:15:19,956 Speaker 3: this is because we live our lives so publicly on 298 00:15:19,996 --> 00:15:23,556 Speaker 3: social media, this kind of panopticon we've created for ourselves 299 00:15:23,556 --> 00:15:25,796 Speaker 3: where everybody can see what we're doing. We feel so 300 00:15:25,876 --> 00:15:29,756 Speaker 3: much pressure to present a curated, perfected version of ourselves, 301 00:15:29,796 --> 00:15:32,316 Speaker 3: when of course our lives aren't like that. And then 302 00:15:32,356 --> 00:15:34,596 Speaker 3: of course we're comparing ourselves to other people's lives that 303 00:15:34,636 --> 00:15:37,196 Speaker 3: seem perfect, and we know that we're a mess, and 304 00:15:37,236 --> 00:15:41,276 Speaker 3: so something must be uniquely wrong with us. And one 305 00:15:41,316 --> 00:15:44,116 Speaker 3: of the many, many pernicious impacts of this is that 306 00:15:44,356 --> 00:15:49,756 Speaker 3: people are unwilling often to take risks and to run experiments. 307 00:15:49,836 --> 00:15:53,196 Speaker 3: And a big part of running experiments and taking risks 308 00:15:53,316 --> 00:15:56,596 Speaker 3: is you're going to fail. But to reframe that, there's 309 00:15:56,636 --> 00:16:00,916 Speaker 3: a difference between humiliation and humility. You can be humbled 310 00:16:00,956 --> 00:16:03,556 Speaker 3: in a good way in that you've learned something about 311 00:16:03,556 --> 00:16:06,676 Speaker 3: yourself and about the world, as opposed to a humiliation 312 00:16:06,876 --> 00:16:11,596 Speaker 3: which kind of coils you up in and thoughts about yourself, 313 00:16:11,676 --> 00:16:14,596 Speaker 3: where you're stuck in shame, you're stuck in your own 314 00:16:15,236 --> 00:16:16,836 Speaker 3: as I sometimes say, and I think I said this 315 00:16:16,836 --> 00:16:19,076 Speaker 3: the last time I was on your show, that your 316 00:16:19,116 --> 00:16:21,596 Speaker 3: head's up your ass in a in a pretty profound way. 317 00:16:21,636 --> 00:16:23,476 Speaker 3: And I know that's kind of a gross image. But 318 00:16:24,236 --> 00:16:27,636 Speaker 3: when you're in that mode, it's hard to learn. But 319 00:16:27,716 --> 00:16:30,076 Speaker 3: when you can be in a mode of humility, or 320 00:16:30,956 --> 00:16:34,876 Speaker 3: to use a term from your milia, when you've got 321 00:16:34,876 --> 00:16:38,836 Speaker 3: a growth mindset, which is that you're willing to take 322 00:16:38,956 --> 00:16:44,476 Speaker 3: risks and a failure doesn't mean somehow you are unworthy 323 00:16:44,556 --> 00:16:48,036 Speaker 3: or perpetually incapable. It just means you learned a thing 324 00:16:48,196 --> 00:16:51,036 Speaker 3: and you can grow from it. Does that all land 325 00:16:51,076 --> 00:16:53,756 Speaker 3: for you, given what you know about the research. 326 00:16:53,916 --> 00:16:56,596 Speaker 1: Yeah, completely. I mean I think the growth mindset idea 327 00:16:56,636 --> 00:16:59,836 Speaker 1: is really quite apt, right. I think we do often 328 00:16:59,956 --> 00:17:01,916 Speaker 1: enough kind of put the word yet at the end 329 00:17:01,956 --> 00:17:04,396 Speaker 1: of everything we do, right, you know, I, you know, 330 00:17:04,476 --> 00:17:07,756 Speaker 1: started a new meditation company and it hasn't really worked 331 00:17:07,756 --> 00:17:10,436 Speaker 1: out yet, Right. I quit my job and tried to 332 00:17:10,436 --> 00:17:12,396 Speaker 1: do something new in the field, but it hasn't worked 333 00:17:12,396 --> 00:17:15,236 Speaker 1: out yet. You know. Carol Dweck's research suggests just putting 334 00:17:15,276 --> 00:17:17,556 Speaker 1: that word yet at the end just completely reframes the 335 00:17:17,556 --> 00:17:19,916 Speaker 1: way you're thinking, right, because it's not like, well, I've 336 00:17:19,916 --> 00:17:23,116 Speaker 1: screwed up, you know, everything's over, I'm dead. It's like, oh, 337 00:17:23,116 --> 00:17:25,796 Speaker 1: it just hasn't clicked yet, Right, There's some time for 338 00:17:25,836 --> 00:17:28,116 Speaker 1: this to kind of work out, and I've learned something, 339 00:17:28,156 --> 00:17:29,876 Speaker 1: so I'm more likely to get it the next time 340 00:17:29,876 --> 00:17:32,196 Speaker 1: because I've sort of figured it out. I think that 341 00:17:32,276 --> 00:17:34,916 Speaker 1: mindset shift is kind of huge. I think another mindset 342 00:17:34,956 --> 00:17:36,716 Speaker 1: shift that's really big, and it seems like one that 343 00:17:36,756 --> 00:17:38,956 Speaker 1: you've embraced a bit, is just this idea that like 344 00:17:39,356 --> 00:17:41,996 Speaker 1: it's actually not as bad as we think, right, that like, 345 00:17:42,236 --> 00:17:45,196 Speaker 1: ultimately I'm probably going to be okay, Right, this sort 346 00:17:45,196 --> 00:17:46,876 Speaker 1: of stems from some of the lovely work by Dan 347 00:17:46,876 --> 00:17:48,876 Speaker 1: Gilbert and his colleagues about how bad we are what 348 00:17:48,956 --> 00:17:52,556 Speaker 1: he calls affective forecasting, which is just like predicting how 349 00:17:52,596 --> 00:17:54,996 Speaker 1: bad some bad event is actually going to be. We 350 00:17:55,076 --> 00:17:57,036 Speaker 1: have so many mechanisms in our mind to make it 351 00:17:57,076 --> 00:17:58,956 Speaker 1: go a little bit better that it's really never as 352 00:17:59,036 --> 00:18:00,196 Speaker 1: bad as we often think. 353 00:18:00,316 --> 00:18:01,276 Speaker 2: That's so well said. 354 00:18:01,796 --> 00:18:05,676 Speaker 3: You know, we've interviewed one another many times over the years, 355 00:18:05,676 --> 00:18:08,036 Speaker 3: but actually we haven't spent I don't think any time 356 00:18:08,076 --> 00:18:09,756 Speaker 3: in person, so I don't know. 357 00:18:10,116 --> 00:18:11,116 Speaker 2: You that well. 358 00:18:11,196 --> 00:18:12,756 Speaker 3: We have this kind of I have this kind of 359 00:18:12,796 --> 00:18:16,796 Speaker 3: parasocial relationship with you. But for observing you from a distance, 360 00:18:18,036 --> 00:18:21,076 Speaker 3: it seems like your career is just a progress of 361 00:18:21,316 --> 00:18:24,636 Speaker 3: strength to strength to strength. You know, starting this course, 362 00:18:24,636 --> 00:18:28,076 Speaker 3: which is the most popular course it's ever existed at Yale, 363 00:18:28,116 --> 00:18:31,076 Speaker 3: and then starting this podcast, which is so huge. But 364 00:18:31,236 --> 00:18:35,756 Speaker 3: have you encountered professional setbacks that you'd be comfortable talking about, Oh. 365 00:18:35,716 --> 00:18:37,236 Speaker 1: My gosh, of course. I mean one of the biggest 366 00:18:37,236 --> 00:18:39,756 Speaker 1: ones was that, you know, as I was starting this 367 00:18:39,836 --> 00:18:43,716 Speaker 1: big class and starting this podcast and running a residential 368 00:18:43,716 --> 00:18:46,116 Speaker 1: college at Yale and doing all this work, I got 369 00:18:46,276 --> 00:18:49,196 Speaker 1: incredibly burned out, Like so burned out that I wound 370 00:18:49,276 --> 00:18:51,716 Speaker 1: up taking time off my role as being ahead of college, 371 00:18:51,756 --> 00:18:54,916 Speaker 1: which was embarrassing for all the reasons that you just 372 00:18:54,916 --> 00:18:56,556 Speaker 1: talked about. Right, I'm supposed to be the self help 373 00:18:56,596 --> 00:18:59,116 Speaker 1: grow and here I am completely burned out. And the 374 00:18:59,156 --> 00:19:01,716 Speaker 1: form of my burnout was a particular one, which is 375 00:19:01,756 --> 00:19:05,156 Speaker 1: that I got incredibly cynical. So these clinical psychologists who 376 00:19:05,156 --> 00:19:07,836 Speaker 1: talk about burnout often talk about these sort of three 377 00:19:07,876 --> 00:19:10,076 Speaker 1: features of burnout is the one we usually think about 378 00:19:10,116 --> 00:19:12,836 Speaker 1: where you're emotionally exhausted, And I was for sure that, 379 00:19:13,036 --> 00:19:15,476 Speaker 1: right you take a weekend off and you come back 380 00:19:15,476 --> 00:19:18,636 Speaker 1: Monday morning, you're just as depleted as when you'd started before, 381 00:19:18,636 --> 00:19:21,156 Speaker 1: Like I was feeling that, I was also feeling what 382 00:19:21,196 --> 00:19:24,236 Speaker 1: they call a sense of personal ineffectiveness. Then even if 383 00:19:24,276 --> 00:19:26,476 Speaker 1: I was doing my job perfectly, it kind of wouldn't 384 00:19:26,516 --> 00:19:28,716 Speaker 1: be good enough, or I wouldn't be proud of it. 385 00:19:29,076 --> 00:19:30,676 Speaker 1: This is all going down kind of at the tail 386 00:19:30,756 --> 00:19:33,876 Speaker 1: end of COVID, when just doing things on campus generally 387 00:19:33,956 --> 00:19:38,276 Speaker 1: wasn't very fun. But the particular insidious consequence of burnout 388 00:19:38,316 --> 00:19:40,716 Speaker 1: that I was experiencing that I was most embarrassed about 389 00:19:41,036 --> 00:19:43,876 Speaker 1: was what researcher is called depersonalization, which is kind of 390 00:19:43,876 --> 00:19:46,636 Speaker 1: just a form of cynicism, which is like everyone that 391 00:19:46,676 --> 00:19:48,516 Speaker 1: you work with and care about is getting on your 392 00:19:48,596 --> 00:19:51,196 Speaker 1: last nerve and you want to just explode on them 393 00:19:51,316 --> 00:19:54,116 Speaker 1: all the time. You even start viewing their intentions as 394 00:19:54,196 --> 00:19:57,196 Speaker 1: kind of evil or like just a pain in the ass. 395 00:19:57,436 --> 00:19:59,676 Speaker 1: And this was what I was experiencing with my students. 396 00:19:59,756 --> 00:20:02,836 Speaker 1: Right I'd get an email from a student who had 397 00:20:02,836 --> 00:20:05,196 Speaker 1: to get a root canal and needed some money from 398 00:20:05,236 --> 00:20:07,156 Speaker 1: the college to be able to do it, and my 399 00:20:07,196 --> 00:20:10,516 Speaker 1: instant reaction wasn't just like true compassion for this student, 400 00:20:10,556 --> 00:20:12,796 Speaker 1: which is what I like to think was the typical 401 00:20:12,876 --> 00:20:15,436 Speaker 1: reaction for most of my career. My reaction was like, oh, 402 00:20:15,516 --> 00:20:16,836 Speaker 1: what a pain in the ass, Like I have to 403 00:20:16,876 --> 00:20:20,276 Speaker 1: send these other emails. And when I started noticing this, 404 00:20:20,756 --> 00:20:22,556 Speaker 1: like at first I didn't want to tell anybody because 405 00:20:22,556 --> 00:20:24,796 Speaker 1: I felt kind of like a fraud. I felt a 406 00:20:24,796 --> 00:20:27,196 Speaker 1: little bit ashamed for having those emotions, right, Like, I'm 407 00:20:27,196 --> 00:20:29,156 Speaker 1: supposed to be in this role where I have uttered 408 00:20:29,196 --> 00:20:31,516 Speaker 1: compassion for the students in my community, and I wasn't 409 00:20:31,556 --> 00:20:34,756 Speaker 1: feeling it. But I think in part because of my 410 00:20:35,236 --> 00:20:37,396 Speaker 1: training in some of this stuff. I'm mindful enough to 411 00:20:37,436 --> 00:20:39,796 Speaker 1: notice these signs, right, I'm like, wait a minute, this 412 00:20:39,836 --> 00:20:42,876 Speaker 1: is like a huge flashing emotional signal that's not supposed 413 00:20:42,916 --> 00:20:45,556 Speaker 1: to be there. That's telling me I'm overwhelmed and I 414 00:20:45,556 --> 00:20:48,236 Speaker 1: need to take some time off. So yeah, at the 415 00:20:48,596 --> 00:20:50,716 Speaker 1: kind of realizing that I stepped away from my role 416 00:20:50,756 --> 00:20:53,836 Speaker 1: as a head of college on campus, not as public 417 00:20:53,916 --> 00:20:56,236 Speaker 1: that use. It wasn't like on live TV, but I 418 00:20:56,236 --> 00:20:58,956 Speaker 1: had a front page New York Times magazine article about 419 00:20:58,956 --> 00:21:01,596 Speaker 1: like happiness professor burned out And got a call from 420 00:21:01,596 --> 00:21:03,236 Speaker 1: my mother in law who was like, were you gonna 421 00:21:03,276 --> 00:21:06,676 Speaker 1: tell us that you're like stepping away from your role 422 00:21:06,716 --> 00:21:09,996 Speaker 1: and taking a year off? So yeah, So you know, 423 00:21:10,596 --> 00:21:12,356 Speaker 1: I think we all have our own forms of what 424 00:21:12,436 --> 00:21:14,996 Speaker 1: feels like failure, what feels like us not living up 425 00:21:14,996 --> 00:21:17,476 Speaker 1: to our ideals. And that was definitely a moment for 426 00:21:17,556 --> 00:21:20,476 Speaker 1: me where I was feeling that way. So I can 427 00:21:20,516 --> 00:21:22,996 Speaker 1: relate to the F word, but not the F word 428 00:21:23,036 --> 00:21:24,916 Speaker 1: we keep talking about the failure effort. 429 00:21:26,316 --> 00:21:30,516 Speaker 3: That's an incredible story. I hope this doesn't sound wrong, 430 00:21:30,516 --> 00:21:32,916 Speaker 3: but I'm like proud of you for telling it. I 431 00:21:32,916 --> 00:21:34,716 Speaker 3: don't mean that in a patronizing way at all. It's 432 00:21:34,756 --> 00:21:38,436 Speaker 3: just it's like very brave. Other than taking time off, 433 00:21:38,996 --> 00:21:40,276 Speaker 3: what helped you pull out of it? 434 00:21:41,556 --> 00:21:43,956 Speaker 1: Well, taking time off was huge, and I took time 435 00:21:43,996 --> 00:21:45,996 Speaker 1: off in a big way, Like I just left Yale 436 00:21:46,196 --> 00:21:49,596 Speaker 1: for a year. I moved to Boston, just like Hold 437 00:21:49,676 --> 00:21:52,596 Speaker 1: Up with Friends just kind of restructured my life around 438 00:21:52,636 --> 00:21:54,996 Speaker 1: thinking about the podcast and stuff, but not doing a 439 00:21:54,996 --> 00:21:57,916 Speaker 1: lot of my professorial work. And that changed a lot, 440 00:21:58,036 --> 00:22:00,316 Speaker 1: you know. I mean therapy was part of it too, right, 441 00:22:00,396 --> 00:22:02,316 Speaker 1: as like you know, as it always is, but it 442 00:22:02,396 --> 00:22:04,436 Speaker 1: was really trying to focus on like what have I 443 00:22:04,516 --> 00:22:07,316 Speaker 1: been telling everybody to do? And what would I tell 444 00:22:07,716 --> 00:22:11,076 Speaker 1: myself in this situation? And for me, I think the difference, 445 00:22:11,076 --> 00:22:12,356 Speaker 1: Whichhich kind of gets back to a lot of the 446 00:22:12,356 --> 00:22:14,156 Speaker 1: stuff that you've talked about was that, you know, it 447 00:22:14,156 --> 00:22:16,716 Speaker 1: was the normal stuff that I teach students, these behavioral changes, 448 00:22:16,796 --> 00:22:19,076 Speaker 1: right like engage in more social connection and you know, 449 00:22:19,156 --> 00:22:22,236 Speaker 1: exercise and try to focus on your sleep. But a 450 00:22:22,276 --> 00:22:24,916 Speaker 1: lot of it was changes to my self talk, right, 451 00:22:24,956 --> 00:22:27,356 Speaker 1: A lot of it was changes to kind of that 452 00:22:27,716 --> 00:22:29,996 Speaker 1: crappy drill sergeant voice in my head telling me I 453 00:22:29,996 --> 00:22:32,076 Speaker 1: have to be the perfect happiness expert. All the time, 454 00:22:33,636 --> 00:22:36,396 Speaker 1: I was like, you know, embracing Kristin nef self compassion 455 00:22:36,436 --> 00:22:39,396 Speaker 1: work in a huge, huge way, and that honestly was 456 00:22:39,516 --> 00:22:41,716 Speaker 1: a lot of what has helped a lot, right and 457 00:22:41,916 --> 00:22:43,876 Speaker 1: just one of the reasons I feel like I've overcome 458 00:22:43,916 --> 00:22:45,716 Speaker 1: my burnout enough to kind of get back into the 459 00:22:45,716 --> 00:22:48,396 Speaker 1: classroom and do more work at Yale and really kind 460 00:22:48,396 --> 00:22:49,996 Speaker 1: of get back to this work in a different way. 461 00:22:50,356 --> 00:22:53,316 Speaker 3: It's a big deal that you're talking about this publicly 462 00:22:53,596 --> 00:22:58,396 Speaker 3: modeling failure and the resilience. I just don't want that 463 00:22:58,516 --> 00:23:00,956 Speaker 3: to slip by. It's awesome that you've done it and 464 00:23:00,996 --> 00:23:02,196 Speaker 3: now you're back in the classroom. 465 00:23:02,236 --> 00:23:03,716 Speaker 2: That's a huge deal. 466 00:23:05,076 --> 00:23:07,236 Speaker 3: I also just want to, you know, plus one on 467 00:23:07,276 --> 00:23:10,836 Speaker 3: the work of Kristin Nef self Compassion, which always scanned 468 00:23:10,876 --> 00:23:13,796 Speaker 3: to me as a you know, I'm going to use 469 00:23:13,836 --> 00:23:18,036 Speaker 3: some social justice boiler plate here, but always scanned to 470 00:23:18,116 --> 00:23:22,676 Speaker 3: me as you know, as a heteronormative cis mail as 471 00:23:22,796 --> 00:23:26,596 Speaker 3: beyond the pale cheesy. But you know, one of the 472 00:23:26,676 --> 00:23:31,236 Speaker 3: amazing things that Kristen's done is muster a pretty convincing 473 00:23:31,396 --> 00:23:35,956 Speaker 3: amount of research backing for the argument that if you 474 00:23:35,996 --> 00:23:38,596 Speaker 3: can learn to talk to yourself the way you would 475 00:23:38,636 --> 00:23:40,756 Speaker 3: talk to a good friend. You know, it can make 476 00:23:40,796 --> 00:23:42,076 Speaker 3: you much more effective. 477 00:23:42,676 --> 00:23:44,556 Speaker 1: We've talked about this on the podcast before, but I 478 00:23:44,596 --> 00:23:47,596 Speaker 1: can help say. My favorite example of Kristin Nef's work 479 00:23:47,716 --> 00:23:50,236 Speaker 1: that I think really shows how powerful and how not 480 00:23:50,476 --> 00:23:53,236 Speaker 1: kind of wooy this sort of technique is is her 481 00:23:53,276 --> 00:23:56,436 Speaker 1: lovely work showing that if you teach self compassion techniques 482 00:23:56,476 --> 00:24:00,556 Speaker 1: to combat veterans, they're less likely to get PTSD. And 483 00:24:00,596 --> 00:24:02,836 Speaker 1: I love the study because it gets around what I 484 00:24:02,876 --> 00:24:05,796 Speaker 1: sometimes find is a challenge talking about the self compassion work, 485 00:24:05,796 --> 00:24:08,716 Speaker 1: which is that it has really crappy marketing. We're being 486 00:24:08,756 --> 00:24:12,796 Speaker 1: really it sounds sort of like fluffy and self compassion 487 00:24:12,836 --> 00:24:14,636 Speaker 1: y and like you're going to talk to yourself like 488 00:24:14,676 --> 00:24:17,196 Speaker 1: a friend. And I remember talking about this work in 489 00:24:17,236 --> 00:24:19,276 Speaker 1: front of folks from the military. I was doing a 490 00:24:19,356 --> 00:24:22,116 Speaker 1: talk for Navy seals and you could see the faces 491 00:24:22,116 --> 00:24:23,996 Speaker 1: in the audience where I'm putting this up of like, 492 00:24:24,316 --> 00:24:26,476 Speaker 1: you know, talk to yoursel it's all about self kindness, 493 00:24:26,716 --> 00:24:28,516 Speaker 1: and they're rolling their eyes. But then you show the 494 00:24:28,596 --> 00:24:31,156 Speaker 1: data where it's like, actually, when you train folks in 495 00:24:31,196 --> 00:24:33,556 Speaker 1: the military to be a bit more mindful to kind 496 00:24:33,556 --> 00:24:35,556 Speaker 1: of stop the drill sergeant in their head even though 497 00:24:35,556 --> 00:24:37,876 Speaker 1: they're listening to the drill sergeant on the field. Now, 498 00:24:37,916 --> 00:24:40,276 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, they start performing better, they wind 499 00:24:40,316 --> 00:24:42,516 Speaker 1: up healthier in the face of true conflict and really 500 00:24:42,556 --> 00:24:45,596 Speaker 1: terrible circumstances. Now it starts to seem less kind of 501 00:24:45,956 --> 00:24:48,436 Speaker 1: woo woo and a little bit more like sciencey and 502 00:24:48,476 --> 00:24:49,116 Speaker 1: in the trenches. 503 00:24:49,156 --> 00:24:52,476 Speaker 3: But absolutely, and for me it's again as somebody who's 504 00:24:52,556 --> 00:24:57,276 Speaker 3: probably who's factory settings are closer to somebody who's in 505 00:24:57,276 --> 00:24:59,316 Speaker 3: the military, although physically I never would have cut it 506 00:24:59,356 --> 00:25:01,956 Speaker 3: in the military, but I'm a little bit, you know, 507 00:25:02,236 --> 00:25:06,796 Speaker 3: psychologically closer to that. It's not so much the self kindness, 508 00:25:06,796 --> 00:25:09,636 Speaker 3: the self compassion of it all sounded vaguely auto erotic 509 00:25:09,676 --> 00:25:09,876 Speaker 3: to me. 510 00:25:09,956 --> 00:25:11,876 Speaker 2: It was more like. 511 00:25:13,516 --> 00:25:16,116 Speaker 3: Switching up from an inner drill sergeant to an inner coach. 512 00:25:16,676 --> 00:25:19,996 Speaker 3: And we've all had good coaches, and they don't shy 513 00:25:20,036 --> 00:25:23,236 Speaker 3: away from pointing out where our flaws are and when 514 00:25:23,276 --> 00:25:26,156 Speaker 3: we've made mistakes. But they're just not assholes about it. 515 00:25:26,396 --> 00:25:29,836 Speaker 3: And that's that's what's being called for here, not some 516 00:25:29,876 --> 00:25:33,676 Speaker 3: sort of gooey gooey you know, staring in the mirror 517 00:25:33,676 --> 00:25:35,636 Speaker 3: and talking to yourself and kissing the mirror and talking 518 00:25:35,636 --> 00:25:38,996 Speaker 3: about how great you are. It's really about having a 519 00:25:39,076 --> 00:25:43,716 Speaker 3: dry eyed, clear eyed, but warm sense of self appraisal 520 00:25:44,156 --> 00:25:46,556 Speaker 3: and talking yourself through it again the way you would 521 00:25:46,556 --> 00:25:49,876 Speaker 3: with your kid or a good friend if they called 522 00:25:49,876 --> 00:25:52,556 Speaker 3: you in a moment where they were in extremis And 523 00:25:52,876 --> 00:25:54,676 Speaker 3: that's really helpful. And I would add on top of this, 524 00:25:54,716 --> 00:25:56,476 Speaker 3: and I'm sure you know his work way better than 525 00:25:56,516 --> 00:25:58,996 Speaker 3: I do, but I have found as a supplement to 526 00:25:59,076 --> 00:26:01,756 Speaker 3: Kristin Neff's work, and this is all very relevant to 527 00:26:01,796 --> 00:26:05,156 Speaker 3: how you talk to yourself and failure is Ethan Cross 528 00:26:05,156 --> 00:26:07,676 Speaker 3: from the University of Michigan and all of the work 529 00:26:07,716 --> 00:26:11,276 Speaker 3: he's done specifically looking at how to most effectively talk 530 00:26:11,316 --> 00:26:11,876 Speaker 3: to yourself. 531 00:26:12,116 --> 00:26:14,556 Speaker 1: Yeah, and just the simple way that you can do 532 00:26:14,636 --> 00:26:16,876 Speaker 1: that by using your own name or as I know 533 00:26:17,076 --> 00:26:19,876 Speaker 1: you do, Dan, not Dan, but dude, Hey, dude, what 534 00:26:19,916 --> 00:26:22,276 Speaker 1: are you doing. It's fine, It's gonna be all right. 535 00:26:22,356 --> 00:26:24,356 Speaker 1: Let's take a long view. It's probably not as bad 536 00:26:24,396 --> 00:26:27,876 Speaker 1: as you think, right. Yeah, those types of techniques have 537 00:26:27,956 --> 00:26:31,756 Speaker 1: been have been really really huge for me too. Another 538 00:26:31,796 --> 00:26:33,236 Speaker 1: one that I know you've talked a lot about in 539 00:26:33,276 --> 00:26:35,156 Speaker 1: the podcast, so I think is something that's resonated with 540 00:26:35,196 --> 00:26:39,156 Speaker 1: both of our stories of failure is how you navigate 541 00:26:39,276 --> 00:26:43,356 Speaker 1: negative emotions and whether you allow them in I think 542 00:26:43,436 --> 00:26:45,596 Speaker 1: I wouldn't be in a healthier place than I was 543 00:26:45,636 --> 00:26:48,356 Speaker 1: when I was feeling my maximill burnout right now if 544 00:26:48,356 --> 00:26:51,876 Speaker 1: I didn't really allow the emotion of overwhelm, if I 545 00:26:51,916 --> 00:26:55,156 Speaker 1: didn't like sit with it and notice it, which is 546 00:26:55,196 --> 00:26:58,436 Speaker 1: definitely not my instinct right as like a you know, 547 00:26:58,596 --> 00:27:02,196 Speaker 1: hardcore type a academic at an ivy League university. I'm 548 00:27:02,236 --> 00:27:05,036 Speaker 1: a very kind of stiff upper lips, squish that emotion down. 549 00:27:05,036 --> 00:27:07,156 Speaker 1: This is very inconvenient. I'm gonna ignore it and sort 550 00:27:07,156 --> 00:27:10,796 Speaker 1: of power through. But like, actually noticing how depleted I 551 00:27:10,876 --> 00:27:13,796 Speaker 1: was feeling, as awful as it was feeling, was sort 552 00:27:13,796 --> 00:27:17,076 Speaker 1: of really essential for kind of getting better. And my 553 00:27:17,156 --> 00:27:19,276 Speaker 1: understanding is that this has been part of your story too, 554 00:27:19,276 --> 00:27:22,516 Speaker 1: this idea of kind of embracing those negative emotions rather 555 00:27:22,556 --> 00:27:23,516 Speaker 1: than running away from them. 556 00:27:25,076 --> 00:27:28,716 Speaker 3: Absolutely. I'm curious, like what modalities did you use? Was 557 00:27:28,756 --> 00:27:33,396 Speaker 3: it therapy, was it meditation? Did what were your practices 558 00:27:33,436 --> 00:27:35,396 Speaker 3: that helped you like not be at war with your 559 00:27:35,436 --> 00:27:36,396 Speaker 3: own inner reality? 560 00:27:37,196 --> 00:27:40,116 Speaker 1: Partly therapy, partly a lot of this just focus on 561 00:27:40,276 --> 00:27:43,436 Speaker 1: noticing what my thought patterns were. That hasn't for me 562 00:27:43,516 --> 00:27:46,156 Speaker 1: come so much through like more formal meditation practices, but 563 00:27:46,196 --> 00:27:48,156 Speaker 1: a lot of these sort of maybe informal self talk 564 00:27:48,236 --> 00:27:51,356 Speaker 1: practices of just kind of noticing it. I think I 565 00:27:51,436 --> 00:27:54,316 Speaker 1: mostly felt it in my body right. It was sort 566 00:27:54,356 --> 00:27:56,196 Speaker 1: of helpful that this was during COVID time and you're 567 00:27:56,196 --> 00:27:57,716 Speaker 1: sort of trapped in your house. I feel like I 568 00:27:57,756 --> 00:28:00,196 Speaker 1: was able to notice my body more. I wasn't traveling 569 00:28:00,196 --> 00:28:02,916 Speaker 1: around and do it. I wasn't as busy kind of 570 00:28:02,916 --> 00:28:05,116 Speaker 1: as in the typical way that I was, and so 571 00:28:05,156 --> 00:28:07,036 Speaker 1: it just helped to sort of notice that a little 572 00:28:07,036 --> 00:28:09,556 Speaker 1: bit more. But yeah, for me, it was pretty body 573 00:28:09,716 --> 00:28:11,316 Speaker 1: to just kind of feel it and notice it. 574 00:28:11,676 --> 00:28:14,076 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that'll to me that all sounds great. 575 00:28:14,636 --> 00:28:17,036 Speaker 3: I know that I'm known, as to the extent that 576 00:28:17,036 --> 00:28:20,156 Speaker 3: anybody knows who I am, as kind of mister meditation, 577 00:28:20,876 --> 00:28:24,316 Speaker 3: and I really am a deep believer in the power 578 00:28:24,316 --> 00:28:27,556 Speaker 3: of the practice. But I'm not a meditation fundamentalist. What 579 00:28:27,676 --> 00:28:30,996 Speaker 3: I would say, however, in this regard, in this particular 580 00:28:31,076 --> 00:28:35,756 Speaker 3: sphere of being able to sit with your emotions, which 581 00:28:35,796 --> 00:28:39,596 Speaker 3: is a really counterintuitive but powerful skill meditation for me, 582 00:28:39,716 --> 00:28:43,796 Speaker 3: has been a it is a it goes right at 583 00:28:43,836 --> 00:28:47,796 Speaker 3: that is it is with extreme prejudice, it goes right 584 00:28:47,916 --> 00:28:51,876 Speaker 3: at this value proposition of being able to weather your 585 00:28:51,876 --> 00:28:55,356 Speaker 3: own internal storms by giving you a set of tools 586 00:28:55,396 --> 00:28:57,676 Speaker 3: to sit in the middle of it without being owned 587 00:28:57,716 --> 00:29:01,236 Speaker 3: by it. One little phrase that might be useful that 588 00:29:01,276 --> 00:29:04,276 Speaker 3: people could use as an inner slogan or a mantra 589 00:29:04,876 --> 00:29:08,036 Speaker 3: in this regard, whether you meditate or not, is And 590 00:29:08,076 --> 00:29:11,436 Speaker 3: this comes from my meditation teacher, Joseph Goldstein, who's, in 591 00:29:11,436 --> 00:29:16,316 Speaker 3: my opinion, just a brilliant, brilliant human being, and he 592 00:29:16,436 --> 00:29:19,436 Speaker 3: teaches with these little phrases, these little slogans that are 593 00:29:19,476 --> 00:29:22,836 Speaker 3: kind of like earworms, and for me, they really come 594 00:29:22,916 --> 00:29:25,036 Speaker 3: up in moments when I need them. And so this 595 00:29:25,116 --> 00:29:27,796 Speaker 3: one is going to sound very basic and simple, but 596 00:29:28,796 --> 00:29:32,236 Speaker 3: it's profound and it is this it's okay. 597 00:29:33,076 --> 00:29:33,276 Speaker 2: Now. 598 00:29:33,316 --> 00:29:36,436 Speaker 3: This does not mean everything's okay. It means it's okay 599 00:29:36,636 --> 00:29:39,956 Speaker 3: to feel what you're feeling right now you can handle 600 00:29:39,996 --> 00:29:44,276 Speaker 3: it instead of pushing it away, which doesn't work, or 601 00:29:45,396 --> 00:29:50,476 Speaker 3: getting overwhelmed by it and acting out of it, meaning 602 00:29:50,836 --> 00:29:54,076 Speaker 3: inviting in the anger and then nurturing it and living 603 00:29:54,116 --> 00:29:57,276 Speaker 3: in that space for twenty years or whatever. It just 604 00:29:57,356 --> 00:29:59,876 Speaker 3: means that, you know, the half life of an emotion 605 00:30:00,236 --> 00:30:02,356 Speaker 3: is whatever, forty five you probably know there's like forty 606 00:30:02,396 --> 00:30:05,316 Speaker 3: five seconds or something like that. We tend to make 607 00:30:05,356 --> 00:30:09,116 Speaker 3: the emotion last for days, years, a lifetime. But actually, 608 00:30:09,156 --> 00:30:11,436 Speaker 3: if you just tell yourself it's okay, I can feel 609 00:30:11,436 --> 00:30:14,276 Speaker 3: this anger right now, it will naturally come and go 610 00:30:14,676 --> 00:30:18,276 Speaker 3: and there is extraordinary freedom on the other side of it. 611 00:30:18,316 --> 00:30:20,516 Speaker 2: Would you realize, Okay, I didn't do anything. 612 00:30:20,556 --> 00:30:22,356 Speaker 3: I didn't say the thing that's going to ruin the 613 00:30:22,356 --> 00:30:24,396 Speaker 3: next forty eight hours of my marriage. Or my son 614 00:30:24,436 --> 00:30:26,356 Speaker 3: and I are in a hotel room right now, and 615 00:30:26,516 --> 00:30:28,636 Speaker 3: we ordered crow nuts because we're in Vegas, and they 616 00:30:28,636 --> 00:30:30,636 Speaker 3: delivered cronuts to the room, and I'm looking at a 617 00:30:30,636 --> 00:30:33,476 Speaker 3: crow nut right now, And if I was angry and 618 00:30:33,556 --> 00:30:35,756 Speaker 3: not aware of it or unwilling to sit with it, 619 00:30:35,796 --> 00:30:38,556 Speaker 3: I might just eat the whole cronut right which again, 620 00:30:38,556 --> 00:30:42,156 Speaker 3: I don't want to make food sinful or anything like that. 621 00:30:42,236 --> 00:30:45,356 Speaker 3: But you can do lots of things that won't feel 622 00:30:45,356 --> 00:30:49,676 Speaker 3: good ultimately, like say something pointed to somebody, or eat 623 00:30:49,676 --> 00:30:53,476 Speaker 3: when you're not hungry, and instead it's okay, Like I 624 00:30:53,516 --> 00:30:57,236 Speaker 3: can just feel this discomfort for forty five seconds or 625 00:30:57,276 --> 00:31:00,276 Speaker 3: however long it lasts. It will pass. It'll probably come 626 00:31:00,316 --> 00:31:03,436 Speaker 3: back again, but it will pass. And once it's passed, 627 00:31:03,876 --> 00:31:07,396 Speaker 3: you can make better decisions and you can also see 628 00:31:07,396 --> 00:31:09,236 Speaker 3: that you can survive more than you think. 629 00:31:09,996 --> 00:31:12,436 Speaker 1: I love It's okay. Can I tell you my latest 630 00:31:12,436 --> 00:31:15,556 Speaker 1: earworm that I'm loving a lot. It comes from the 631 00:31:15,596 --> 00:31:18,636 Speaker 1: clinical psychologist Ellen Hendrickson, who has this great new book 632 00:31:18,636 --> 00:31:20,796 Speaker 1: called How to Be Enough. But she says we have 633 00:31:20,836 --> 00:31:23,876 Speaker 1: to go less frozen and more beetles. That when we 634 00:31:23,956 --> 00:31:26,116 Speaker 1: think of dealing with our negative emotions, we want to 635 00:31:26,196 --> 00:31:27,996 Speaker 1: let it go, but we have to let it be. 636 00:31:28,676 --> 00:31:30,636 Speaker 1: I love this idea because I've never been a huge 637 00:31:30,636 --> 00:31:33,756 Speaker 1: frozen fan. So less frozen, more beetles, not let it go, 638 00:31:33,996 --> 00:31:35,716 Speaker 1: let it be, because I think this is idea is 639 00:31:35,756 --> 00:31:37,676 Speaker 1: we think we'll just like get rid of those emotions 640 00:31:37,756 --> 00:31:40,116 Speaker 1: or try to toss them out. But the sad thing 641 00:31:40,196 --> 00:31:43,556 Speaker 1: is that the real practice is being like, Nope, I'm 642 00:31:43,596 --> 00:31:45,836 Speaker 1: just gonna hang out with you and I'm not gonna run. 643 00:31:46,196 --> 00:31:48,556 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna let you take your course. And that 644 00:31:48,556 --> 00:31:51,636 Speaker 1: can be super scary, and our instinct is just to 645 00:31:51,716 --> 00:31:53,716 Speaker 1: squish it down and push it away. But it's really 646 00:31:53,716 --> 00:31:56,596 Speaker 1: the act of sitting through the emotion that allows us 647 00:31:56,596 --> 00:31:58,356 Speaker 1: to get through it, and sometimes that allows us to 648 00:31:59,236 --> 00:32:01,916 Speaker 1: see that the emotion we thought it was isn't exactly 649 00:32:02,316 --> 00:32:04,436 Speaker 1: what it was. And I know this is something you 650 00:32:04,476 --> 00:32:08,076 Speaker 1: talked a lot about in kind of your career Earthquake. 651 00:32:08,236 --> 00:32:10,476 Speaker 1: Is that the the first presentation of a lot of 652 00:32:10,476 --> 00:32:13,676 Speaker 1: the emotions you were dealing with was anger, anger at 653 00:32:13,676 --> 00:32:16,316 Speaker 1: the company, anger at the situation or the contract or whatever. 654 00:32:16,756 --> 00:32:18,236 Speaker 1: But what did you find out when you sat with 655 00:32:18,276 --> 00:32:20,196 Speaker 1: the anger? Did it stay anger all the time? 656 00:32:20,436 --> 00:32:22,196 Speaker 3: That's a great question. First of all, just to say 657 00:32:22,276 --> 00:32:23,396 Speaker 3: I love Ellen Hendrickson. 658 00:32:23,516 --> 00:32:23,756 Speaker 2: Two. 659 00:32:24,036 --> 00:32:25,316 Speaker 3: I didn't know she had a new book, so I 660 00:32:25,316 --> 00:32:27,756 Speaker 3: need to get her on my show. But she wrote 661 00:32:27,756 --> 00:32:30,636 Speaker 3: a book years ago about social anxiety that I still 662 00:32:30,716 --> 00:32:34,916 Speaker 3: quote to people who are struggling with that. Yes, anger, 663 00:32:35,516 --> 00:32:38,916 Speaker 3: For me, when I sat with it, I realized that 664 00:32:38,956 --> 00:32:42,476 Speaker 3: it's often described as a secondary emotion, as you know, 665 00:32:43,476 --> 00:32:48,556 Speaker 3: so it's often covering up for something else. And for me, 666 00:32:49,276 --> 00:32:53,476 Speaker 3: if I could muster the wherewithal to sit with the 667 00:32:53,556 --> 00:32:57,316 Speaker 3: discomfort of the anger, I could see that underneath it 668 00:32:57,356 --> 00:33:00,516 Speaker 3: was fear, and that's a hard thing. Again, It just 669 00:33:00,596 --> 00:33:04,436 Speaker 3: kind of kind of goes back to how masculinity can 670 00:33:04,556 --> 00:33:06,956 Speaker 3: manifest I know from men, from many men, like, we 671 00:33:06,996 --> 00:33:09,756 Speaker 3: don't want to admit that we're scared, and so anger 672 00:33:09,796 --> 00:33:12,836 Speaker 3: is a much more comfortable place to be. A friend 673 00:33:12,836 --> 00:33:15,956 Speaker 3: of mine once joke that he had two emotional gears, 674 00:33:16,276 --> 00:33:20,316 Speaker 3: anger and self pity, And I really see myself in that. 675 00:33:20,436 --> 00:33:24,236 Speaker 3: But you know, as painful as it is, it's better, 676 00:33:24,316 --> 00:33:27,276 Speaker 3: I think, to tune into what's really going on than 677 00:33:27,316 --> 00:33:29,876 Speaker 3: to just be stuck in the anger, because you're much 678 00:33:29,956 --> 00:33:33,636 Speaker 3: less likely I in my experience, to get to resolution 679 00:33:33,916 --> 00:33:36,836 Speaker 3: if you stay in the anger, but to tune into 680 00:33:36,836 --> 00:33:38,876 Speaker 3: the fear, Like what am I worried about? I'm worried 681 00:33:38,876 --> 00:33:41,196 Speaker 3: about all the identity stuff that you brought up earlier. 682 00:33:41,876 --> 00:33:43,876 Speaker 3: What is this all going to say about me? I'm 683 00:33:43,876 --> 00:33:46,116 Speaker 3: worried about. Am I going to you know, am I 684 00:33:46,116 --> 00:33:48,396 Speaker 3: going to have to like sell the house and move 685 00:33:48,436 --> 00:33:52,236 Speaker 3: my family somewhere else? Lots of things I was worried about, 686 00:33:52,356 --> 00:33:55,636 Speaker 3: and I have, you know, for me, this is actually 687 00:33:55,836 --> 00:34:00,556 Speaker 3: something that makes failure such a fraught issue, especially at work. 688 00:34:01,796 --> 00:34:07,796 Speaker 3: I have this, really, I think, this really deep ancestral 689 00:34:07,956 --> 00:34:15,036 Speaker 3: fear of destitution and it's totally irrational. I am absolutely 690 00:34:15,116 --> 00:34:18,396 Speaker 3: comfortable financially. I was raised, I have had every advantage 691 00:34:18,876 --> 00:34:21,156 Speaker 3: that is available, except for maybe the fact that I'm 692 00:34:21,156 --> 00:34:24,916 Speaker 3: not tall. But you know, white straight male raised by 693 00:34:25,036 --> 00:34:27,836 Speaker 3: loving parents who were upper middle class, was able to 694 00:34:27,836 --> 00:34:30,916 Speaker 3: go to college, all of the advantages, and yet just 695 00:34:31,156 --> 00:34:36,476 Speaker 3: I have this nagging, irrational fear about running out of money. 696 00:34:36,916 --> 00:34:39,196 Speaker 3: And have learned later in life that I had a 697 00:34:39,196 --> 00:34:43,876 Speaker 3: great grandfather. His name is Arthur LAbau was Leebuwitz, but 698 00:34:43,916 --> 00:34:46,316 Speaker 3: he changed it to Lebau because it wasn't a great 699 00:34:46,316 --> 00:34:49,396 Speaker 3: place for Jews in the early nineteen hundreds and the 700 00:34:49,476 --> 00:34:53,156 Speaker 3: United States wasn't and he wanted to sound French. And 701 00:34:53,796 --> 00:34:58,076 Speaker 3: he was a total like huckster, and you had a 702 00:34:58,116 --> 00:35:01,476 Speaker 3: series of failed businesses and that ultimately became a bail bondsman, 703 00:35:01,516 --> 00:35:05,636 Speaker 3: but a corrupt one, and was putting up his family members' 704 00:35:05,636 --> 00:35:09,316 Speaker 3: houses as collateral for these crooks to get out out 705 00:35:09,316 --> 00:35:12,756 Speaker 3: of jail. And one of them skip bond, and this guy, 706 00:35:12,956 --> 00:35:15,636 Speaker 3: the FBI swooped in, and I might I found a 707 00:35:15,636 --> 00:35:17,956 Speaker 3: bunch of articles about this, Like the FBI swooped in. 708 00:35:18,036 --> 00:35:21,756 Speaker 3: My great grandmother had to like testify in federal court 709 00:35:21,836 --> 00:35:24,316 Speaker 3: and Arthur Lebau took his own life in the family 710 00:35:24,356 --> 00:35:28,876 Speaker 3: kitchen and his daughter's found h Yeah, and that dude's 711 00:35:29,116 --> 00:35:33,476 Speaker 3: energy is in my veins. And that's just the best 712 00:35:33,476 --> 00:35:37,156 Speaker 3: explanation I can come up with for why I, or 713 00:35:37,156 --> 00:35:39,636 Speaker 3: at least part of why this is such a bugaboo 714 00:35:39,676 --> 00:35:39,916 Speaker 3: for me. 715 00:35:40,396 --> 00:35:41,316 Speaker 2: And so in. 716 00:35:42,836 --> 00:35:47,636 Speaker 3: Failure, I've had the opportunity to get a little bit 717 00:35:47,676 --> 00:35:50,996 Speaker 3: closer to this dude. And and for me, what's really 718 00:35:51,076 --> 00:35:55,076 Speaker 3: helpful is to be like, when I see him rearing 719 00:35:55,116 --> 00:35:55,836 Speaker 3: his head. 720 00:35:56,076 --> 00:35:59,276 Speaker 2: Thank you, you know, thank you? This is I don't, 721 00:35:59,356 --> 00:35:59,996 Speaker 2: I don't. 722 00:36:00,116 --> 00:36:02,276 Speaker 3: You're giving me shitty ideas I'm not going to hopefully 723 00:36:02,316 --> 00:36:04,916 Speaker 3: I'm not going to act on them. But the impulse 724 00:36:05,156 --> 00:36:07,676 Speaker 3: is as one of the great meditation teachers I know, 725 00:36:07,796 --> 00:36:10,916 Speaker 3: a guy named Jack Pornfield, the impulse is just the 726 00:36:11,036 --> 00:36:12,436 Speaker 3: organism trying to protect itself. 727 00:36:12,796 --> 00:36:12,916 Speaker 2: Right. 728 00:36:12,996 --> 00:36:18,076 Speaker 3: So it fundamentally is a helpful instinct to have all 729 00:36:18,156 --> 00:36:21,276 Speaker 3: this fear or to be like us hustling all the 730 00:36:21,316 --> 00:36:23,236 Speaker 3: time to make sure that my career is in a 731 00:36:23,236 --> 00:36:26,916 Speaker 3: good place. But over time, as I've been able to 732 00:36:27,116 --> 00:36:31,676 Speaker 3: make peace with this character, internally, I'm less owned by him. 733 00:36:31,716 --> 00:36:34,196 Speaker 3: It's a kind of radical disarmament. Does all of that 734 00:36:34,236 --> 00:36:34,836 Speaker 3: make sense to you? 735 00:36:35,316 --> 00:36:37,076 Speaker 1: No, totally. I think there are two things in there 736 00:36:37,116 --> 00:36:39,876 Speaker 1: that really fit with the science, right. The first is 737 00:36:39,916 --> 00:36:42,796 Speaker 1: this idea of kind of having gratitude for this belief 738 00:36:42,836 --> 00:36:45,676 Speaker 1: that's otherwise kind of causing this terrible scarcity mindset, maybe 739 00:36:45,756 --> 00:36:48,596 Speaker 1: because of you to make bad decisions. But if your 740 00:36:48,596 --> 00:36:50,756 Speaker 1: instinct was to hate it, which I'm sure it probably 741 00:36:50,796 --> 00:36:52,516 Speaker 1: is your natural instinct, but if you kind of went 742 00:36:52,556 --> 00:36:54,556 Speaker 1: with that instinct to hate it and you're just angry 743 00:36:54,596 --> 00:36:56,836 Speaker 1: at it the whole time, like you wouldn't ever be 744 00:36:56,876 --> 00:36:59,036 Speaker 1: able to kind of look at it and allow it 745 00:36:59,116 --> 00:37:01,756 Speaker 1: and see what it's doing. So kind of embracing it 746 00:37:01,796 --> 00:37:05,356 Speaker 1: with gratitude is a really great strategy, right. It kind 747 00:37:05,396 --> 00:37:07,036 Speaker 1: of allows you to look at it and really deal 748 00:37:07,076 --> 00:37:09,236 Speaker 1: with that belief and sort of ask the question is 749 00:37:09,236 --> 00:37:10,956 Speaker 1: it really useful to you? It's trying to help you, 750 00:37:10,996 --> 00:37:13,196 Speaker 1: but is it really helping you? I think another really 751 00:37:13,236 --> 00:37:14,796 Speaker 1: the thing I really love about this story is that 752 00:37:15,236 --> 00:37:19,116 Speaker 1: by kind of putting that in Leboo's words, that it's 753 00:37:19,196 --> 00:37:23,076 Speaker 1: his thought, it gives you some distance from that thought yourself. Right, 754 00:37:23,076 --> 00:37:25,236 Speaker 1: You're able to think of it as like that's a belief. 755 00:37:25,236 --> 00:37:27,436 Speaker 1: It's not an objective truth about the world. It's a 756 00:37:27,476 --> 00:37:29,236 Speaker 1: belief that I can sort of see the origin story 757 00:37:29,236 --> 00:37:31,116 Speaker 1: and you can almost label it as sort of one 758 00:37:31,116 --> 00:37:33,676 Speaker 1: of his beliefs, kind of, it's your ancestral belief right 759 00:37:33,676 --> 00:37:36,116 Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be yours right now. You can 760 00:37:36,156 --> 00:37:37,876 Speaker 1: pick and choose whether or not it's right for you. 761 00:37:38,196 --> 00:37:40,876 Speaker 1: And that's a sort of classic distancing strategy that you 762 00:37:40,916 --> 00:37:44,556 Speaker 1: get from cognitive behavioral therapy. You know, folks like work, 763 00:37:44,676 --> 00:37:46,756 Speaker 1: like folks from Ethan Cross and so on, and so 764 00:37:47,156 --> 00:37:49,156 Speaker 1: I think there's elements there that the science would really 765 00:37:49,156 --> 00:37:50,916 Speaker 1: line up with that. That's a great strategy. 766 00:37:51,156 --> 00:37:52,636 Speaker 3: This is why it's always so great to talk to you, 767 00:37:52,716 --> 00:37:54,996 Speaker 3: because you can take my crazy shit and like give 768 00:37:55,036 --> 00:37:56,436 Speaker 3: it some scientific ovind here. 769 00:37:57,116 --> 00:37:57,596 Speaker 2: It's true. 770 00:37:57,676 --> 00:37:59,916 Speaker 1: That's that's what the researchers would say you should do. Anyway. 771 00:38:00,796 --> 00:38:02,476 Speaker 1: The final thing I want to talk to you that 772 00:38:02,636 --> 00:38:05,036 Speaker 1: I was really impressed with your story about failure is 773 00:38:05,236 --> 00:38:07,796 Speaker 1: this kind of optimism that you brought to it, at 774 00:38:07,876 --> 00:38:09,756 Speaker 1: least sort of in the end part of the process. 775 00:38:10,116 --> 00:38:11,956 Speaker 1: And you talked a lot about trying to sort of 776 00:38:11,956 --> 00:38:15,356 Speaker 1: embrace this whole situation with what you called radical optimism, 777 00:38:15,516 --> 00:38:17,676 Speaker 1: and so I'm curious if you could define what that 778 00:38:17,796 --> 00:38:19,836 Speaker 1: means and how it sort of played out in your story. 779 00:38:20,476 --> 00:38:22,156 Speaker 2: You know, I don't I could. 780 00:38:22,556 --> 00:38:25,396 Speaker 3: Anybody listening to this, including you can can fact check 781 00:38:25,436 --> 00:38:27,876 Speaker 3: me on this. But my understanding and really this comes 782 00:38:27,876 --> 00:38:32,756 Speaker 3: from interviewing a guy named Frederick Fairt p feer Dt, 783 00:38:32,996 --> 00:38:37,116 Speaker 3: who was an innovation ma is an innovation maybe in 784 00:38:37,156 --> 00:38:39,796 Speaker 3: at both Stanford and Google, and he talks about radical 785 00:38:39,836 --> 00:38:45,956 Speaker 3: optimism as the idea that failure and we talked about 786 00:38:45,956 --> 00:38:50,396 Speaker 3: this earlier is embedded in failure is progress if you 787 00:38:50,436 --> 00:38:53,276 Speaker 3: are willing to learn from it, so you can you 788 00:38:53,316 --> 00:38:58,036 Speaker 3: can launch a big project and for me, like I 789 00:38:58,196 --> 00:39:01,556 Speaker 3: just launched a big new project in the aftermath of 790 00:39:02,076 --> 00:39:05,476 Speaker 3: ten percent happier, the app not going my way and 791 00:39:05,796 --> 00:39:09,076 Speaker 3: in my sanest moments, in my most radically optimistic moment. 792 00:39:09,356 --> 00:39:14,676 Speaker 3: And this isn't like, this is not irrational optimism. This 793 00:39:14,796 --> 00:39:19,596 Speaker 3: is radical optimism, right, so it's actually evidence based, fact based, 794 00:39:19,636 --> 00:39:22,436 Speaker 3: reality based. I can tell myself the story that this 795 00:39:22,476 --> 00:39:25,276 Speaker 3: thing may not work, but I will have made progress 796 00:39:25,316 --> 00:39:27,516 Speaker 3: anyway because I will have learned for the next thing. 797 00:39:27,756 --> 00:39:29,596 Speaker 1: I love that this comes from like all the Stanford 798 00:39:29,636 --> 00:39:31,716 Speaker 1: tech folks, because this has been kind of an ethos 799 00:39:31,756 --> 00:39:34,836 Speaker 1: that has never been kind of my mom but seems 800 00:39:34,876 --> 00:39:36,716 Speaker 1: to be on EMO that really works if you judge 801 00:39:36,716 --> 00:39:39,076 Speaker 1: from companies like Facebook and Google and so on, which 802 00:39:39,116 --> 00:39:42,156 Speaker 1: is like move fast and break things. Right. I'm cool 803 00:39:42,156 --> 00:39:43,956 Speaker 1: with the move fast, like that kind of fits with 804 00:39:43,996 --> 00:39:46,156 Speaker 1: my em pretty well. But the break things, I'm like, 805 00:39:46,316 --> 00:39:49,716 Speaker 1: oh that, But it's like explicit in that kind of 806 00:39:49,756 --> 00:39:52,036 Speaker 1: plan for how you live your life and come up 807 00:39:52,076 --> 00:39:54,876 Speaker 1: with ideas and so on, and inherent in that is 808 00:39:54,916 --> 00:39:56,476 Speaker 1: just the idea of what you were just saying, right, 809 00:39:56,516 --> 00:39:58,516 Speaker 1: which is that like you have to break things to 810 00:39:58,596 --> 00:40:00,636 Speaker 1: learn what actually works. If the thing just kind of 811 00:40:00,756 --> 00:40:03,196 Speaker 1: works perfectly the first time you design it, then you 812 00:40:03,196 --> 00:40:05,636 Speaker 1: haven't really learned much of anything in terms that'll matter 813 00:40:05,676 --> 00:40:07,836 Speaker 1: for your kind of product working well or in the 814 00:40:07,836 --> 00:40:10,596 Speaker 1: case of our own psychology, for and resilience moving forward. 815 00:40:10,756 --> 00:40:13,036 Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say the one asterisk there is that 816 00:40:14,156 --> 00:40:16,996 Speaker 3: in my understanding, at least too often in the tech world, 817 00:40:17,276 --> 00:40:20,156 Speaker 3: they're breaking things and breaking people and acting you know, 818 00:40:20,756 --> 00:40:24,196 Speaker 3: maybe without you know, the highest integrity sometimes And so 819 00:40:24,596 --> 00:40:27,796 Speaker 3: this isn't about and I'm not saying this to you. 820 00:40:28,076 --> 00:40:30,156 Speaker 3: I'm saying it just to anybody who might be tempted 821 00:40:30,156 --> 00:40:33,796 Speaker 3: to misinterpret this. This isn't about you know, just being 822 00:40:33,836 --> 00:40:36,476 Speaker 3: a dick, or you know, or not giving a shit 823 00:40:36,516 --> 00:40:39,876 Speaker 3: about other people, or burning yourself out and other people out. 824 00:40:39,916 --> 00:40:42,356 Speaker 3: It's really like moving fast and break things. The way 825 00:40:42,436 --> 00:40:46,476 Speaker 3: I interpret it for myself is a willingness to fail, 826 00:40:46,756 --> 00:40:50,236 Speaker 3: a willingness to try things. And yeah, this is another 827 00:40:50,276 --> 00:40:53,636 Speaker 3: Silicon Valley cliche that I like to fail fast, to 828 00:40:53,916 --> 00:40:57,036 Speaker 3: try a bunch of stuff and then pivot quickly. And 829 00:40:57,276 --> 00:41:00,836 Speaker 3: there's this an enormous amount of resilience available to if 830 00:41:00,876 --> 00:41:03,156 Speaker 3: you're open to having aired. 831 00:41:03,316 --> 00:41:05,476 Speaker 1: Yeah, and not to beat the crap out of yourself 832 00:41:05,476 --> 00:41:07,196 Speaker 1: when you do that, right, because it's hard to fail 833 00:41:07,236 --> 00:41:10,036 Speaker 1: fast if you're in the fetal position about what a 834 00:41:10,076 --> 00:41:12,996 Speaker 1: loser you are. Right. The trouble with Tigingy Duden is 835 00:41:12,996 --> 00:41:14,516 Speaker 1: that we cover so much ground that when I'm in 836 00:41:14,516 --> 00:41:16,396 Speaker 1: the position of summing up, it feels like there's a 837 00:41:16,396 --> 00:41:19,276 Speaker 1: lot to do. But I think first bullet point in 838 00:41:19,316 --> 00:41:22,116 Speaker 1: my sum up list is that you and I both 839 00:41:22,116 --> 00:41:23,916 Speaker 1: screw up a lot, and we like to learn from 840 00:41:23,956 --> 00:41:26,036 Speaker 1: our screw ups and then share what we learn with 841 00:41:26,116 --> 00:41:28,476 Speaker 1: lots of people and so thank you for helping me 842 00:41:28,516 --> 00:41:30,796 Speaker 1: out with that. But it seems like among the things 843 00:41:30,796 --> 00:41:33,556 Speaker 1: we've learned is that failure not as bad as we think, 844 00:41:33,756 --> 00:41:36,276 Speaker 1: lots of benefits we don't expect. If you're feeling terrified 845 00:41:36,276 --> 00:41:39,796 Speaker 1: about failure, that's probably just an affective forecasting error coming up. 846 00:41:40,236 --> 00:41:43,196 Speaker 1: But if you need tips to deal with failure, self compassion, 847 00:41:43,756 --> 00:41:46,476 Speaker 1: the catchup of all self talk strategies, it just makes 848 00:41:46,476 --> 00:41:48,956 Speaker 1: everything tastier and better. We need a little bit of 849 00:41:49,036 --> 00:41:51,476 Speaker 1: radical optimism so that we can kind of remember that 850 00:41:51,596 --> 00:41:54,436 Speaker 1: failure is probably not just not as bad as we think, 851 00:41:54,476 --> 00:41:57,636 Speaker 1: but also going to be really helpful. And beyond that, 852 00:41:57,676 --> 00:41:59,916 Speaker 1: we need some strategies to kind of really allow our 853 00:41:59,956 --> 00:42:02,636 Speaker 1: negative emotions and to remember that it's going to be okay. 854 00:42:03,076 --> 00:42:04,756 Speaker 1: You're the career journalist. What did I forget? 855 00:42:06,196 --> 00:42:08,756 Speaker 3: I think that that was a perfect sum up, and 856 00:42:08,756 --> 00:42:11,116 Speaker 3: I would I did very quickly. One other thing, you know, 857 00:42:11,196 --> 00:42:15,316 Speaker 3: for people wanting to navigate failure successfully is make it 858 00:42:15,356 --> 00:42:16,076 Speaker 3: a team sport. 859 00:42:16,236 --> 00:42:17,876 Speaker 2: You know, have people you can talk to about it. 860 00:42:19,116 --> 00:42:21,996 Speaker 1: Super Dan, thanks so much for being so frank about 861 00:42:21,996 --> 00:42:24,276 Speaker 1: your failure and for helping me be so frank about mine. 862 00:42:24,316 --> 00:42:25,436 Speaker 1: This was an awesome episode. 863 00:42:25,476 --> 00:42:27,716 Speaker 2: Thank you, Laurie. I love talking, and next. 864 00:42:27,516 --> 00:42:29,956 Speaker 1: Time we're going to come back and talk more about 865 00:42:29,956 --> 00:42:32,516 Speaker 1: well being at work. We're going to focus more specifically 866 00:42:32,716 --> 00:42:35,476 Speaker 1: on the recommendations that came out on World Mental Health 867 00:42:35,556 --> 00:42:38,276 Speaker 1: Day about what we can do as individuals and maybe 868 00:42:38,276 --> 00:42:40,916 Speaker 1: also as employers to make sure we're thriving at work.