Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. This is Masters in
Speaker 1: Business with Barry Ritholts on Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 2: This week on the podcast, I have an extra special guest,
Speaker 2: the Vanguard Group's Karen reci the person who is responsible
Speaker 2: for so many initiatives, so much growth, so many new products,
Speaker 2: including the Vanguard Ria, the internal advisory service that runs
Speaker 2: three hundred and fifty billion dollars. This is a fascinating
Speaker 2: conversation if you're at all interested in what it's like
Speaker 2: to be part of a fast growing organization that is
Speaker 2: racking up trillions of dollars in assets, what it's like
Speaker 2: to create new initiatives. Really, this is tour de force conversation.
Speaker 2: She has just concluded about twenty eight years at Vanguard
Speaker 2: and is moving over to Harbor Vest, which is the
Speaker 2: out side private equity shop that Vanguard has been working with.
Speaker 2: I thought this conversation was fascinating, and I think you
Speaker 2: will also with no further ado, my conversation with the
Speaker 2: Vanguard Group and Harbor Vests Karen REESI.
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me, Barry. I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 2: I'm happy to have you. I want to talk about
Speaker 2: your time at Vanguard, but before I do that Bachelor's
Speaker 2: in Finance MBA from Villanova. Finance always was a career plan.
Speaker 2: That's what it kind of looks like.
Speaker 3: Yes, I think it looks that way, but I'll say
Speaker 3: I got more intentional over time, Barry, But no, I
Speaker 3: initially actually wanted to go to art school. Oh real
Speaker 3: little known fact.
Speaker 2: Yes, so we did from Villanova. Do you go straight
Speaker 2: into the NBA or do you work and then go back?
Speaker 3: I worked for a few years at Sinoco in Center City, Philadelphia,
Speaker 3: and then I started my MBA there and then joined
Speaker 3: Vanguard and finished up my MBA in my first couple
Speaker 3: of years at Vanguard.
Speaker 2: Really, so right from business school and then the only
Speaker 2: company you've worked for since school is Vanguard. That's an
Speaker 2: impressive run. How did you find your way to Vanguard?
Speaker 3: Like so many people at Vanguard, I had a friend
Speaker 3: that worked there, So I was a couple of years
Speaker 3: out of school in investor relations at Snoko, and then
Speaker 3: I had a friend who said, you know, if you
Speaker 3: want to get more into finance and investments, we have
Speaker 3: an opening at Vanguard. I think you'd really like it.
Speaker 3: And that truly is how I got into the interview process.
Speaker 3: I grew up in the area. I grew up in
Speaker 3: the suburbs of Philadelphia, so I knew Vanguard go Berts, yes,
Speaker 3: but I didn't know really that much about it, and
Speaker 3: I only had one friend who worked there. But I
Speaker 3: went for the interview process and joined as an investment
Speaker 3: analyst in nineteen ninety seven.
Speaker 2: So late nineties, Vanguard had to be a really interesting place.
Speaker 2: What was it like during that period?
Speaker 3: It was an interesting place. It was not an unknown
Speaker 3: like many of my you know, retired predecessors are. You know,
Speaker 3: when they joined Vanguard in the eighties, it was really
Speaker 3: off the radar. We were starting to gain traction. Indexing
Speaker 3: was starting to gain traction, the hiring classes were getting bigger.
Speaker 3: So I joined with you know, dozens of other people
Speaker 3: when I joined Vanguard in May of ninety seven, and
Speaker 3: you know, we were still though, this small ish firm
Speaker 3: in Malvern, Pennsylvania, Valley Forge, Pennsylvania, very different from Wall Street.
Speaker 2: So if you join Vanguard in ninety seven, Jack Brennan.
Speaker 1: Is CEO, is that right?
Speaker 3: That's exactly right.
Speaker 2: A delightful, serious individual and I find him, like every
Speaker 2: other prior CEO of Vanguard, fascinating guy.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, and you're right a serious individual. Yes, Jack
Speaker 3: was leading the firm by the time I got there
Speaker 3: in ninety seven, but of course Jack Bogel was still
Speaker 3: sort of around present on campus. You know, his whole
Speaker 3: spirit looms large even today.
Speaker 2: And so if I memory serves, it was only a
Speaker 2: couple of years later Brennan kicked himself up to chairman
Speaker 2: and Bill McNabb comes in it as CEO. So you
Speaker 2: worked with some really tremendous corporate leaders.
Speaker 3: I did. In fact, if you think about the CEOs
Speaker 3: at Vanguard I worked. I had a really special opportunity
Speaker 3: to work directly for Jack Brennan, just for one year
Speaker 3: on a special assignment working on scalable advice, which we'll
Speaker 3: figure later into my career trajectory. And then I worked
Speaker 3: directly for Bill McNabb, our next CEO. I worked for
Speaker 3: him in multiple capacities when he was running our institutional business,
Speaker 3: and then again I worked for him directly as a
Speaker 3: member of the senior team when he was CEO. Similarly,
Speaker 3: Tim Buckley, our last CEO, worked for him in multiple capacities.
Speaker 3: He ran our retail division, and I was working for
Speaker 3: him at that time, and then I worked for him
Speaker 3: again when he took the CEO spot.
Speaker 2: So you mentioned Jack Bogel. Did you get to spend
Speaker 2: a lot of time with him? He is Saint Jack
Speaker 2: is pretty legendary.
Speaker 3: He is legendary for sure, not a lot of time.
Speaker 3: I never worked directly with Jack, but as I I said,
Speaker 3: you know, I was working on the third floor of
Speaker 3: the Victory Building, which is where Jack still had his
Speaker 3: office for a time, and then he moved down to
Speaker 3: the second floor. So he was very present on campus
Speaker 3: in my earliest years at Vanguard, but I did not
Speaker 3: work with him directly.
Speaker 2: So you were head of strategy, Product, marketing, Communications? Like,
Speaker 2: is that one job? Is that four jobs? Tell us
Speaker 2: a little bit about your progression over twenty seven years
Speaker 2: through the leadership ranks at Vanguard.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that what you just described was my final post
Speaker 3: at Vanguard, and it was, yeah, kind of like four jobs,
Speaker 3: but it was one one assignment throughout the twenty seven
Speaker 3: years though I had, as you know, a bunch of
Speaker 3: different roles at Vanguard, really strong rotational culture at the firm.
Speaker 3: So I joined in the corporate division as an investment analyst.
Speaker 3: Then I moved to corporate strategy. Then I moved and
Speaker 3: I did probably a five year stint in a couple
Speaker 3: of different roles in our institutional division, and then I
Speaker 3: spent probably a dozen years in our retail division, where
Speaker 3: as you mentioned, I ran the Ultimately I ran the division,
Speaker 3: but I started in different roles in the division, particularly
Speaker 3: leading the advisory group before taking over. And then my
Speaker 3: final post before I retired at the end of last
Speaker 3: year was as you mentioned, strategy marketing, global investment, product development,
Speaker 3: oversight of all of our external managers, and then also
Speaker 3: corporate communication.
Speaker 2: So let's put some flesh on the bones. So when
Speaker 2: I hear corporate communications, I think investor relations, public relations,
Speaker 2: just and for It's kind of interesting for most of
Speaker 2: Vanguard's history, not a very aggressively public firm, kind of
Speaker 2: a low key firm. Not that Jack was low key,
Speaker 2: but the firm itself wasn't doing the usual rounds. Isn't
Speaker 2: out there yelling and jumping up and down with the
Speaker 2: hair on fire, just very quietly, at least from my observation.
Speaker 2: Tell me if I'm wrong.
Speaker 3: No, I think that's a fair characterization. Jack Bogel certainly
Speaker 3: was out in the industry and vocal at the firm level.
Speaker 3: You're right, we didn't do a lot of advertising. We
Speaker 3: were quite happy to be in Malvern, Pennsylvania and sort
Speaker 3: of out of the limelight. That was intentional on our part,
Speaker 3: especially in the earlier years. I think over time we've
Speaker 3: gotten far more comfortable taking a stand and expressing our
Speaker 3: point of view. But by and large your characterization is fair.
Speaker 3: The corporate communications function at Vanguard today, you know, has
Speaker 3: evolved considerably from back in the early days. We now
Speaker 3: have a crisis communications function, certainly a well developed and
Speaker 3: global PR function, as well as all of the standard
Speaker 3: sort of corporate messaging and things that you would see
Speaker 3: on our digital properties.
Speaker 2: Product development, that's such an ambiguous phrase. Tell us what
Speaker 2: product development means specifically at Vanguard.
Speaker 3: Of course, for Vanguard, it means investment product development. So
Speaker 3: I head oversight of our four hundred and twenty plus
Speaker 3: the numbers probably even greater now, first mutual funds and
Speaker 3: increasingly ETFs, and we do as you know, all of
Speaker 3: our passively managed products are our managed in house by
Speaker 3: our investment management group. But our actively managed funds are
Speaker 3: active equity funds. I should say, we do active fixed
Speaker 3: in house, but our active equity funds are subadvised to
Speaker 3: a stable of investment advisors, and I had purview over that.
Speaker 3: My team's identified and then oversaw and built the relationships
Speaker 3: with each of those external advisors firms like Wellington, Prime Cap,
Speaker 3: et cetera.
Speaker 2: And a lot of people don't realize because you know,
Speaker 2: Vanguard and Blackrock are synonymous with broad indexing. But am
Speaker 2: I getting the numbers right? About twenty five percent on
Speaker 2: the equity side is active or is it even higher
Speaker 2: than that?
Speaker 3: It's about probably just shy of a trillion dollars in
Speaker 3: active equity.
Speaker 2: Uh huh that's real money.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's real money.
Speaker 2: How many subadvisors are you working with? And what is
Speaker 2: that process like?
Speaker 3: Well? Today, I think the number it fluctuates a bit
Speaker 3: as we add managers to the stable in part ways
Speaker 3: with some others, but I think the high water mark
Speaker 3: was probably in the mid twenties. It's probably down to
Speaker 3: twenty two or twenty three now, you have to check
Speaker 3: with the team. But when I left, I think it
Speaker 3: was about twenty two or twenty three different managers. And
Speaker 3: given the design of the product and the client need
Speaker 3: we're trying to meet, we look for the best possible
Speaker 3: active manager to fill that mandate.
Speaker 2: So I didn't realize until you just said this earlier.
Speaker 2: All of the active fixed income is in house, but
Speaker 2: the active equity is external. What's the difference between the
Speaker 2: two for our audience? I think I have an idea
Speaker 2: of the difference in terms of active fixed income has
Speaker 2: certain attributes that active equity doesn't, but I want to
Speaker 2: hear it from you.
Speaker 3: Well, maybe one minor clarification. Vast majority of our active
Speaker 3: fixed income is managed in house. Wellington does manage one
Speaker 3: or two active mandates for us, still legacy mandates like
Speaker 3: Jenny May, et cetera. But really the difference being Vanguard
Speaker 3: chooses to manage funds in house where we have the
Speaker 3: talent and expertise to do so, and active fixed income.
Speaker 3: Our bond desk is tremendously deep in talent. Greg Davis,
Speaker 3: who I know you've had on the show before. He's great,
Speaker 3: Yes he is. He and his team have built out
Speaker 3: our fixed income capabilities over the years, and so we
Speaker 3: really are in a strong position to offer active fixed
Speaker 3: income across the range, and I think you'll see Vanguard
Speaker 3: leaning into our fixed income product lineup even more going forward.
Speaker 2: At risk of oversimplifying this, it always feels like active
Speaker 2: fixed income, you can run a screen and screen out
Speaker 2: riskier product, riskier bonds, lower quality bonds, and that immediately
Speaker 2: accrues to outperformance. For an active bond portfolio, you could
Speaker 2: develop screens to select certain quality bonds that you have,
Speaker 2: certain return characteristics that you like. Am I wrong? And
Speaker 2: I always feel like I'm making I'm dumbing it down
Speaker 2: too much. It feels like you can do more on
Speaker 2: the fixed income side actively and generate a return for
Speaker 2: your effort, whereas it's so much harder to do that
Speaker 2: on the equity side.
Speaker 3: I think that's fair, and I think Sarah Dever, who
Speaker 3: runs our fixed income shop at Vanguard now, would agree
Speaker 3: with you. I think there's a lot of opportunity that
Speaker 3: the team sees based on what's happening in the environment.
Speaker 3: And perhaps I don't know, I'm not in a position
Speaker 3: to say relative to active equity. I don't know if
Speaker 3: our active equity managers would agree, but I know that
Speaker 3: Sarah's team would agree.
Speaker 2: You mentioned that Vanguard is headquartered in Melvern, that it
Speaker 2: was a purposeful decision not to locate and headquarters in
Speaker 2: Boston and New York City. What are the advantages of that,
Speaker 2: How does that accrue to the culture.
Speaker 3: I do think it plays a big role in our culture,
Speaker 3: especially over decades. I think it's a big part of
Speaker 3: in some ways the talent we attract. There is a
Speaker 3: very purposeful decision on the part of most people in
Speaker 3: our industry to in many cases relocate their family to
Speaker 3: the suburbs of Philadelphia. Many of them are coming from
Speaker 3: New York or other areas, And you have to really
Speaker 3: buy into the mission and purpose of Vanguard and its
Speaker 3: company and its culture to you know, make a consequential
Speaker 3: decision like that. And I think it speaks to the
Speaker 3: ability for our mission and purpose to resonate with top
Speaker 3: talent in the industry.
Speaker 2: And to be fair, Philadelphia is a great American I
Speaker 2: I agree. Every time I've ever gone to Vanguard, I've
Speaker 2: always arranged a weekend in Philly. It's always a blast.
Speaker 2: The food is great, the history is great. It's not
Speaker 2: like nothing is New York. But I would put Philly
Speaker 2: in Boston, you know, absolutely on par in terms of, hey,
Speaker 2: we have this great city right here.
Speaker 3: I would agree with you, Barry, And I think from
Speaker 3: a Vanguard culture perspective, it also allowed us to really
Speaker 3: instill in you know, now twenty thousand crew around the globe,
Speaker 3: but those of us in Malvern for sure. This notion
Speaker 3: that our culture is really reflection more of Main Street
Speaker 3: than Wall Street. You kind of hear that around Vanguard
Speaker 3: every now and then, and it speaks to the clients
Speaker 3: that we serve and the way we think about product
Speaker 3: development and all of the rest of it.
Speaker 2: Huh, really interesting. So I mentioned Vanguard is about to
Speaker 2: celebrate its fiftieth anniversary. By the time the sales it's
Speaker 2: already happened.
Speaker 3: That's right.
Speaker 2: That's a nineteen seventy four was when it was launched.
Speaker 2: That's an amazing run fifty years. What does that mean
Speaker 2: to affirm the size of Vanguard?
Speaker 3: Oh, I think it's you know, an important milestone. But
Speaker 3: it is a reflection of everything that Vanguard has been
Speaker 3: over the last fifty years. I think, you know, our culture,
Speaker 3: our mission, our purpose has been incredibly consistent from the
Speaker 3: top down, you know, modeled by every leader you mentioned,
Speaker 3: the CEOs of Vanguard that you have already had the
Speaker 3: pleasure of talking to.
Speaker 2: Got to get the new guy in.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you got to get the new guy in. But
Speaker 3: you know, there is just a remarkable consistency across what
Speaker 3: we try to do for clients and how our leaders
Speaker 3: express that and how our crew you know, feel that
Speaker 3: and reflect that to our clients when they serve them
Speaker 3: every day.
Speaker 2: So I'm going to share a Bill McNabb's story, which
Speaker 2: I'm sure you experienced, and I want to just get
Speaker 2: your reaction to it. He told the story here during
Speaker 2: the financial crisis, he would occasionally plug into the phone
Speaker 2: system and listen to advisors speaking to clients, and not
Speaker 2: only were the clients freaked out, but you could hear
Speaker 2: people on the phone. They were a little nervous. All
Speaker 2: hands on deck, phone call, Hey, listen, We're going to
Speaker 2: come through this better than ever. Nobody's getting fired, nobody's
Speaker 2: getting laid off. Take a deep breath, go do your jobs.
Speaker 2: And suddenly everybody is just, you know, running on all cylinders.
Speaker 2: What was your experience during the financial crisis with McNab
Speaker 2: at the HELM.
Speaker 3: Very similar to what you just described and very consistent
Speaker 3: with how Vanguard approaches crisis. Really, I mean, the GFC
Speaker 3: was definitely qualified as a crisis for our firm in
Speaker 3: the industry and investors, and there was a calmness coming
Speaker 3: from Bill as the CEO, but also the rest of
Speaker 3: the leadership team and providing assurance to our crew. And
Speaker 3: You're right, there was, you know, an explicit assurance that
Speaker 3: we were going to keep calm and carry on and
Speaker 3: really importantly continue investing in our strategic priorities. Where you know,
Speaker 3: some firms were immediately pulling back after the GFC, Vanguard
Speaker 3: had the luxury of you know, we are playing a
Speaker 3: long game and continuing. I recall Bill and the leadership
Speaker 3: team expressing to our crew at the time, We're going
Speaker 3: to continue to invest in our strategic priorities. We're leaning
Speaker 3: in really and I think it had a very big
Speaker 3: calming effect on the car.
Speaker 2: That's how he told it. And I'm not surprised that
Speaker 2: at your reaction. I mentioned Jack Brennan, Bill mcnah have
Speaker 2: another rock steady guy that's whose hand you on on
Speaker 2: the tailer. You know, this guy isn't going to be
Speaker 2: rattled by a market sellof or a crisis, and that's
Speaker 2: that's really fascinating. My colleague Eric Belchunis wrote a column
Speaker 2: called the Vanguard Effect way back in twenty sixteen, and
Speaker 2: at the time he ran the numbers and said Vanguard's
Speaker 2: low fee approach has saved investors either directly or through
Speaker 2: indirect fee pressure a trillion dollars. That was almost ten
Speaker 2: years ago. I think we could bullpark it closer to
Speaker 2: two trillion dollars. Tell us about the focus on cost
Speaker 2: and how that's impacted investors and the entire industry.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not going to check your math on that,
Speaker 3: but I'll buy Eric's and your your estimate there on
Speaker 3: what we've saved investors over time. And I think the
Speaker 3: focus on cost has been relentless, something that is in
Speaker 3: the fabric of the organization. We counsel our investors and
Speaker 3: our clients to focus on the things they can control,
Speaker 3: and you know, expense ratios, whether it's mutual funds or ETFs,
Speaker 3: these are things that are within an investor's control and
Speaker 3: it helps them keep more of their return. It's part
Speaker 3: of our whole, you know, portfolio construction methodology when we
Speaker 3: advise clients. It's one of the factors, not the only factor,
Speaker 3: and maybe not even the first factor, Barry, but certainly
Speaker 3: keeping cost low is something that Vanguard feels obligated to
Speaker 3: do for it's now fifty plus million investors around the world. Wow,
Speaker 3: and the Vanguard effect to use Eric's phrase is real.
Speaker 3: I mean we have seen that, particularly when we enter
Speaker 3: new markets outside the US.
Speaker 2: You see feed compression imediately when Vanguard shakes everybody's cage.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 2: So it's funny because Eric eventually writes the book the
Speaker 2: boggle effect. You mentioned. Cost isn't the first principle. I
Speaker 2: kind of get the sense then, of the things that
Speaker 2: you can control. It's being a long term investor and
Speaker 2: being a buy and hold investor. That wasn't popular when
Speaker 2: Vanguard launched in nineteen seventy four, was it.
Speaker 3: No, Sometimes it's still not even popular today. But we've
Speaker 3: been pretty clear and steadfast in our view that investors
Speaker 3: should have a goal. It should be intentional about what
Speaker 3: they're trying to achieve, having some balance and diversification, being
Speaker 3: thoughtful about how you construct a portfolio and perhaps getting
Speaker 3: the help of an advisor to do that if an
Speaker 3: investor would benefit from that, and really having the discipline
Speaker 3: to your point of sticking with it for the long term,
Speaker 3: and understanding what your personal risk tolerance is, your investment
Speaker 3: time horizon, and really thinking about how you're going to
Speaker 3: achieve those goals.
Speaker 2: So I want to ask you a question, and I'm
Speaker 2: very cognizant of the fact that you are no longer
Speaker 2: with Vanguard. We'll talk a little bit about where you've went.
Speaker 2: There has been in the industry as a whole, but
Speaker 2: surprisingly at Vanguard also a move towards some privates some alternatives.
Speaker 2: Tell us about this evolution.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's an exciting one, both for the
Speaker 3: industry but also for Vanguard. As you mentioned, we began
Speaker 3: offering in twenty twenty. I think we began offering private
Speaker 3: equity fund to some of our retail investors, those that
Speaker 3: were qualified for it. It was a first for Vanguard,
Speaker 3: but I would say the notion of broadening access to
Speaker 3: different types of investments for mainstream investors is not a first.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's what we did with mutual funds, it's
Speaker 3: what we did with ETFs, it's what we endeavored to
Speaker 3: do with advice, and so private equity is part and
Speaker 3: parcel really of that advice offer for many of our
Speaker 3: advice clients. I think you'll see a lot more of that.
Speaker 3: In fact, there was subsequent to my leaving, there was
Speaker 3: a recent announcement that there is even another product that
Speaker 3: there'll be more information on. With partnering with Blackstone and Wellington,
Speaker 3: which is pretty exciting.
Speaker 2: And where did you end up shifting after twenty seven years.
Speaker 3: Well, I'm still making the shift, you know. I'm still
Speaker 3: kind of writing my next chapter, which is really exciting.
Speaker 3: But I will be joining Harborvest Partner's board next month.
Speaker 2: So May, first, you're at harbor Vest Vanguard, did I
Speaker 2: want to say Experiments which they've expanded, which was working
Speaker 2: with harbor Vest, which you know, maybe the layperson knows Vanguard,
Speaker 2: but they don't know harbor Vest. They're one of the
Speaker 2: biggest private equity in private credit shops out there, right,
Speaker 2: tell us what are you doing at Harborvest.
Speaker 3: Really excited to join harbor Vest in May. I'm going
Speaker 3: to be joining their board, really getting to know the
Speaker 3: firm in a different capacity. When I was at Vanguard,
Speaker 3: of course, in twenty twenty, we partnered with Harborvest. I
Speaker 3: oversaw the team that actually selected Harborvest among multiple managers
Speaker 3: that we considered for our first private equity offer for
Speaker 3: both retail and ocio clients at the time. So multiple
Speaker 3: series or vintages of that fund have progressed and Vanguard
Speaker 3: continues to work with Harborvest. And now I'm looking forward
Speaker 3: to working with them in a different capacity.
Speaker 2: So this raised this's a fascinating question. There has been
Speaker 2: a giant shift from public to private assets over the
Speaker 2: past you know, certainly decade or so. Not everybody can
Speaker 2: be in the top ten percent, as the joke goes,
Speaker 2: but it seems like there's almost a land grab going
Speaker 2: on for the retail investor thinking about a traditional sixty
Speaker 2: forty portfolio, why should they also be thinking about adding
Speaker 2: a slug of private debt or private equity to their portfolio.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's one of the next things that
Speaker 3: we as an industry, not just vanguard, but more broadly,
Speaker 3: advisors have to help clients with retail clients in particular,
Speaker 3: who are used to, as you said, at conventional sixty
Speaker 3: forty public portfolio, really thinking about is first is there
Speaker 3: a role for privates in their portfolio construction? And then
Speaker 3: if yes, if appropriate, then how they should integrate that
Speaker 3: into their portfolio, and then which manager they should do
Speaker 3: that with. So it is a you know, a multi
Speaker 3: layered decision process, and I think one that advisors can
Speaker 3: really help with. That's a personal opinion. I think advisors
Speaker 3: can help clients who maybe know a little bit about
Speaker 3: private equity but not enough or have heard about private
Speaker 3: credit and all of the you know, press headlines that
Speaker 3: private credit is getting right now, and really trying to
Speaker 3: figure out is this right for me? And and in fact,
Speaker 3: can it generate excess returns well above public markets over time?
Speaker 3: And is that something I should incorporate into my portfolio.
Speaker 3: I think that's a you know, a problem statement that
Speaker 3: many clients aren't even approaching yet, but but perhaps should.
Speaker 3: Perhaps there is a spot for and I think if
Speaker 3: you look at all of you called it a land grab,
Speaker 3: I think that's pretty fair. I think there's a ton
Speaker 3: of movement. Sure, everybody I speak with and probably those
Speaker 3: that you speak with too, are talking about democratizing privates.
Speaker 3: I think it's a trend right now, but I think
Speaker 3: in general it's something that should be here to say.
Speaker 2: So, let me ask you two questions about that, an
Speaker 2: easy question and a hard question. The easy question is, Hey,
Speaker 2: is this about non correlated diversified returns or is this
Speaker 2: about generating alpha and outperforming markets at public markets?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I think it can be both. It's a really
Speaker 3: good distinction. I think it can be both. It depends
Speaker 3: on your wealth level, It depends on how much of
Speaker 3: your overall allocation you're going to put into privates, and
Speaker 3: then what type of private market asset class you're going
Speaker 3: to be working with. So yes, I think it can
Speaker 3: be an uncorrelated return opportunity and also an alpha generation opportunity.
Speaker 2: So now the hard question. Vanguard built its reputation on
Speaker 2: low cost alternatives, have a reputation of being pricey, So
Speaker 2: how do you square that circle?
Speaker 3: I think it's going to be a matter of you
Speaker 3: pay different things for different asset classes, and private market
Speaker 3: investing is different than public market investing, so I would
Speaker 3: imagine that investors should expect to pay more for a
Speaker 3: private equity offer or a private credit offer. The key
Speaker 3: for me, you know, and again speaking personally, would be
Speaker 3: I want to know that I'm getting a top quality
Speaker 3: manager at a fair price. I think, you know, giving
Speaker 3: a fair price is the obligation that the industry has
Speaker 3: to investors.
Speaker 2: And that's the Vanguer culture, even spilling over into private
Speaker 2: So we've come to know Vanguard not just for passive,
Speaker 2: not just for indexing, not just for stocks and bonds,
Speaker 2: but generally a putting clients first, A fiduciary approach to
Speaker 2: asset management is that consistent with some of the criticism
Speaker 2: we've seen of the alternative space, or is it simply
Speaker 2: as much as not all alternatives are created equally.
Speaker 3: Certainly, not all alternatives are created equally. I think you
Speaker 3: could say that for sure, And I think with regard
Speaker 3: to what Vanguard endeavors to do, it'll be up to
Speaker 3: the current CEO and his leadership team. But I would
Speaker 3: suspect that they will stay true to the notion of
Speaker 3: trying to provide clients with the best possible offers that
Speaker 3: meet their long term investing needs. And I do think
Speaker 3: that there is a place for private assets in that,
Speaker 3: but that'll be up to the current team to decide.
Speaker 2: Really really fascinating. So I read a crazy stat that
Speaker 2: in the state of Pennsylvania, if you are a certified
Speaker 2: financial planner, ninety three percent odds that you work for Vanguard.
Speaker 2: Can that possibly be correct?
Speaker 3: Again, I'm not going to check your stat but I
Speaker 3: think yes. Having built out the personal advisor offer from
Speaker 3: the ground up and passed it on to multiple of
Speaker 3: my colleagues since then, we're now well over I think
Speaker 3: a thousand advisors for sure, so it's possible. Luckily, we
Speaker 3: have other domestic offices. Not just Pennsylvania, there's also Charlotte
Speaker 3: and Arizona and Dallas, so we can we can attract
Speaker 3: talent in the CFP ranks from multiple spots.
Speaker 2: So I have to ask you. You're working at this
Speaker 2: giant shop and you say, I know, let's build an RIA,
Speaker 2: your registered investment advisory firm that's a fiduciary within a
Speaker 2: giant asset manager. Tell us about the genesis of this.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, definitely not my vision alone. There was. It
Speaker 3: was a firm wide kind of push. For sure. We
Speaker 3: had been this is going way back. We had been
Speaker 3: chasing scalable advice for decades. At Vanguard. We had an
Speaker 3: offer very small relative to you know, the firm size
Speaker 3: at the time. It was called Asset Management Services. The
Speaker 3: minimum was five hundred thousand dollars to invest. You got
Speaker 3: a one on one dedicated advisor, much the same way
Speaker 3: you do today. And I think we charged back then, Barry,
Speaker 3: probably ninety basis points on the first million. Okay, great offer.
Speaker 3: Clients loved it, high ENDPS scores, but certainly not scalable.
Speaker 3: You know, we had a few hundred, fewer than two
Speaker 3: high advisors really powering that offer. And you know, fewer
Speaker 3: than ten thousand clients, So we knew that we had
Speaker 3: the ability to offer great advice using mostly Vanguard product
Speaker 3: at the core of the advice methodology at the time,
Speaker 3: and we wanted to scale it. But I credit really
Speaker 3: Jack Brennan initially for wanting that scalable advice. I mentioned
Speaker 3: at the top of the program that I had a
Speaker 3: special opportunity to work for Jack doing research, really kind
Speaker 3: of pulling together research and helping the senior team determine
Speaker 3: whether they were going to try to do this scalable
Speaker 3: advice offer. And there were multiple iterations before Personal Advisor.
Speaker 3: Personal Advisor, which we launched in twenty fifteen, that's the
Speaker 3: offer you just referenced, well over three hundred and fifty
Speaker 3: billion now serving hundreds of thousands of clients. It started
Speaker 3: with multiple iterations inside of Vanguard, so I think we
Speaker 3: had a couple of goes at it before we perfected
Speaker 3: what I had the really the privilege to lead in
Speaker 3: twenty fifteen.
Speaker 2: Huh, that's really fascinating. I know Vanguard has a direct
Speaker 2: indexing product now, it's kind of fascinating to look at
Speaker 2: all these different product lines and divisions because in the
Speaker 2: early days Jack Bogel didn't want to do ETFs, didn't
Speaker 2: want to do international. Hey, we do one thing, we
Speaker 2: do it really well, and everybody else can can play catch.
Speaker 3: Up, and you can add advice to that list. He
Speaker 3: didn't want to do advice either. In fact, oh for sure,
Speaker 3: we had thousands of frontline phone associates who were told
Speaker 3: do not use the word advice. You know, there was
Speaker 3: definitely a very clear line between guidance and advice, and
Speaker 3: we were very careful to step back from the advice line,
Speaker 3: if you will.
Speaker 2: So what's the difference between guidance and advice?
Speaker 3: Well, there is a regulatory difference, for sure, and that's
Speaker 3: what we were homing in on at the time.
Speaker 2: But well, you have discretion, right your fiduciaries. Yes, so
Speaker 2: I don't see the difference. Listen, if you're giving your
Speaker 2: child advice or you're giving them guidance, maybe guidance is
Speaker 2: a little gentler.
Speaker 3: Yes, guidance is gendler. It's there is definitely a difference.
Speaker 3: But you know, I had in earlier in my career,
Speaker 3: I led phone groups, you know, hundreds of phone associates
Speaker 3: and we would train them to serve the client's transactional
Speaker 3: needs and help them with guidance. But I cannot tell you.
Speaker 3: In the same way that Bill McNabb would monitor phone calls,
Speaker 3: I would monitor phone calls when I was leading those groups,
Speaker 3: and so many clients just wanted to know which fund
Speaker 3: should I buy, you know, that was what you said.
Speaker 3: I had a small stable of friends and now we have,
Speaker 3: you know, four hundred different options, and I think it
Speaker 3: It also led to the genesis of our personal advisor offer,
Speaker 3: because we realized there was an incredible pent up demand
Speaker 3: people who had joined Vanguard, you know, perhaps with a
Speaker 3: single mutual fund, you know, maybe they started with a
Speaker 3: money market fund.
Speaker 2: Totally self directed.
Speaker 3: Totally self directed is really the legacy of the firm.
Speaker 3: You know, we still have a much greater cadre of
Speaker 3: self directed clients than advised clients. The vast majority of
Speaker 3: vast majority of vast majority of clients.
Speaker 2: Although I say this as an RIA I know the
Speaker 2: RIA side of the industry are big buyers and supporters
Speaker 2: of Vanguard products.
Speaker 3: Oh for sure, I mean I would acknowledge that the
Speaker 3: RIA channel, for sure is it's a totally different division
Speaker 3: at Vanguard, but it is absolutely critical to our success
Speaker 3: and growth over time. What we've been talking about is
Speaker 3: really that direct relationship when a client, you know, opens
Speaker 3: a mutual fund account directly with Vanguard and then that
Speaker 3: is essentially what what I'm referring to as self directed.
Speaker 3: But in the same timeframe, we were growing our Financial
Speaker 3: Advisor Services division as well, and that is a critical
Speaker 3: component of what we do today.
Speaker 2: And when this first rolled out, there was a little rumbling.
Speaker 2: I think Vanguard managed to thread the needle and say
Speaker 2: we're not offering advice, we're offering guidance and not exactly
Speaker 2: competing with that channel.
Speaker 3: Well, we were offering advice, but you're right that there
Speaker 3: was a little bit of needle threading to do. I
Speaker 3: think partially we were able to do that well because
Speaker 3: there was so much internal collaboration across the senior leaders
Speaker 3: at the firm. First Martha King and then Tom Rampoola
Speaker 3: ran the FAS division at that time, and when Tom
Speaker 3: took over, I was running the retail division, and there
Speaker 3: was a lot of discussion around, you know, what we
Speaker 3: needed to do to both serve rias really well through
Speaker 3: Tom's division and also be a growing and thriving ria
Speaker 3: ourselves serving individual investors with our own advice methodology, and
Speaker 3: I think there's been a lot of collaboration between those
Speaker 3: divisions over time, where we use research and the things
Speaker 3: that we learn through our Investment Strategy group or our
Speaker 3: in house research, we share that with the rias that
Speaker 3: we serve.
Speaker 2: So here's a crazy stat I want to throw out
Speaker 2: at you. So total investible assets of stocks bonds were
Speaker 2: not quite one hundred trillion, but where it's not that
Speaker 2: far off in the United States, how is it possible
Speaker 2: that nobody in the RIA space has market share? You
Speaker 2: guys are three hundred and fifty billion dollars And it's like, eh.
Speaker 3: Well, there are some pretty big and very strong independent
Speaker 3: arias and we serve a lot of them. Their clients
Speaker 3: a vanguards. But you're right, it's a it's a fragmented market. Still,
Speaker 3: there's definitely a top tier for sure.
Speaker 2: All right, But there's ten firms with yes, you're one
Speaker 2: hundred billion, two hundred billion, and a ton of firms
Speaker 2: with twenty forty sixty billion. And it's funny when I
Speaker 2: discuss these numbers with family, they think five billion is
Speaker 2: a lot of money. I'm like, oh no, no, we're peons.
Speaker 2: They don't really, they don't really know what trillions are,
Speaker 2: but why is the industry so fragmented?
Speaker 3: You know, I don't know what the why is behind that,
Speaker 3: but I can certainly say, just in the time that
Speaker 3: I've left Vanguard, all of the conversations I've had around
Speaker 3: the industry, there is a ton of interest in and
Speaker 3: you see it yourself, all of the consolidation that is
Speaker 3: happening among all of those mid and smaller tier rias.
Speaker 3: You know, the larger firms the top tier are either
Speaker 3: buying up those arias. There's consolidation across the industry. There's
Speaker 3: a lot of private equity money invested and investing interested
Speaker 3: in investing more in the RIA space. There's just a
Speaker 3: ton of movement in wealth management, which I think is
Speaker 3: exciting and hopefully is good for investors.
Speaker 2: And there's some crazy number the average advisors age is
Speaker 2: like sixty six. So there's a whole succession planning.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the other thing, You're right, the demographics. It's
Speaker 3: you know, lots of rias are you know, looking to
Speaker 3: turn over their book and they don't have a strong
Speaker 3: succession plan.
Speaker 1: Huh.
Speaker 2: That's really fascinating. So one of the things you launched
Speaker 2: at Vanguard there's so many different initiatives you did, but
Speaker 2: the Vanguard Women's Initiative for Leadership Success. Tell us a
Speaker 2: little bit about that. What led to this project and
Speaker 2: what have the results been.
Speaker 3: They call it WILLS internally at Vanguard, and you're right,
Speaker 3: it's the Women's Initiative for Leadership Success. It was spearheaded
Speaker 3: under Bill mcnath Leadership and I mention that because it
Speaker 3: is so important that top down the CEO made it
Speaker 3: a priority, and I think that's why it continues to
Speaker 3: thrive today. I had the honor of being one of
Speaker 3: the founding leaders of our WILLS initiative more than fifteen
Speaker 3: years ago at this point, but it's still an incredibly
Speaker 3: important employee resource group within the firm, and it was
Speaker 3: the first of several, so we probably have half a
Speaker 3: dozen or more different employee resource groups now. But the
Speaker 3: importance of encouraging women and helping them develop into leaders
Speaker 3: at Vanguard, and I use the term leader broadly, so
Speaker 3: leader of people, but also specialists in portfolio management, or
Speaker 3: legal or data analytics, you name it. So there's just
Speaker 3: been a lot of evolution over time, but that consistent
Speaker 3: drumbeat of helping our women develop into to the you know,
Speaker 3: highest potential leaders that they could be at the firm
Speaker 3: in whatever area of expertise they were best suited to.
Speaker 2: What sort of advice would you give to a young
Speaker 2: woman aspiring to a leadership role in the world of
Speaker 2: investing in finance?
Speaker 3: If I think particularly about the advice and counsel that
Speaker 3: I have given to many younger women in the organization,
Speaker 3: I often will say, don't be afraid to take a risk.
Speaker 3: You know, do the work, develop a point of view,
Speaker 3: have your own point of view, and be willing to
Speaker 3: share it. That's you know, there's often a confidence gap.
Speaker 3: It's not an aptitude gap.
Speaker 2: But men blunder in regardless of their competency. Women are
Speaker 2: much more circumspect. Pardon me for man's blating sexism, but
Speaker 2: like my observations have been, man as a as a dude,
Speaker 2: I I'm out over my skis, I have no radio training.
Speaker 2: What am I doing here? And I've noticed since I've
Speaker 2: been doing this that men just seem to be we
Speaker 2: are blithe idiots stumbling into things, and women seem to
Speaker 2: be more thoughtful in circumspect.
Speaker 3: Those are your words, so I'll just say yes, I
Speaker 3: find many times men are infinitely comfortable sharing their point
Speaker 3: of view regardless. Yes, but I think women can often
Speaker 3: use some encouragement to, you know, want one do the work,
Speaker 3: develop the point of view right that there is work
Speaker 3: to be done. But once you have a point of view,
Speaker 3: take a risk and share it and know that it's okay.
Speaker 3: When you are wrong, you will be wrong. I think
Speaker 3: there's often a fear of the criticism that will you know,
Speaker 3: will follow when you express your point of view, and
Speaker 3: I think a lot of the council is develop the
Speaker 3: point of view, take the risk because no one will
Speaker 3: know you're in the room until you open your mouth,
Speaker 3: right and you know related, but perhaps a little different
Speaker 3: than that, I would give the advice to women who
Speaker 3: are looking for expanded leadership opportunities more responsibility to be
Speaker 3: explicit in asking for it. And that's also something that
Speaker 3: you hope. You keep your head down and do the work,
Speaker 3: and you get noticed, and you get chosen for the
Speaker 3: special project or the next assignment or the rotation, and
Speaker 3: often you know you're just not top of mind, and
Speaker 3: that's okay. So you have to be more explicit about
Speaker 3: expressing your interest in taking on more responsibility, expanding your
Speaker 3: remit within the organization or getting on some research project.
Speaker 3: You have to tell people that you're interested in doing
Speaker 3: more than you've already been asked to do.
Speaker 2: So let me throw you a curveball. You served or
Speaker 2: you are serving as a director on the Vanguard Foundation board.
Speaker 3: I did serve as a member of the Vanguard Foundation
Speaker 3: Board when I was at the firm. I also served
Speaker 3: as a member of the Irish Funds Board, and I
Speaker 3: also had the opportunity it's separate from Vanguard but related,
Speaker 3: I also served on Vanguard Charitables Board for a number
Speaker 3: of years. So all of those, you know, through different lenses,
Speaker 3: were opportunities outside of my day to day's swim lane
Speaker 3: or you know job, if you will to give back
Speaker 3: to either the community with regard to the Vanguard Foundation,
Speaker 3: or get involved in our international business through our Irish
Speaker 3: Funds distribution through that board or in Vanguard Charitables case,
Speaker 3: really think about donor advise funds and learn more about that.
Speaker 2: And that's a big that's like eighteen twenty billion dollars
Speaker 2: something like that. That's a big chunk of money that
Speaker 2: people are saying, help us distribute this philanthropically exactly right,
Speaker 2: huh quite fascinating. All right, let's jump to our favorite questions,
Speaker 2: starting with what are you watching these days or listening to?
Speaker 2: What's keeping you entertained on the What am I watching?
Speaker 3: I would say, hacks is Do you like it? I
Speaker 3: love it?
Speaker 2: We not only do we love the show, but we
Speaker 2: watch it straight.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: At the end there's a little podcast discussion, yes, by
Speaker 2: the showrunners and the creators, and they're just charming to
Speaker 2: lifeful people.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, for those that don't know, I think it's
Speaker 3: worth a It's very different from anything you see on
Speaker 3: TV right now. Gene smart Is, you know, talk about
Speaker 3: longevity in a career. She's in her seventies. I love
Speaker 3: seeing that, and it's just a darkly funny, you know,
Speaker 3: mentorship between one character and a much younger characters. It's
Speaker 3: a good one.
Speaker 2: Tell us about your mentors who helped shape your career.
Speaker 3: Man too many to count. At Vanguard really just spoiled
Speaker 3: with lots of great leaders, all of whom were mentors
Speaker 3: in different ways, particularly in the very early days of
Speaker 3: my career, people like Jeff Moltor taking a chance on me,
Speaker 3: giving me my first job at Vanguard when I was
Speaker 3: not an obvious choice. Really helping me develop a thick skin.
Speaker 3: He was notorious for giving very straight feedback. Martha King
Speaker 3: I mentioned her earlier, just one of my earliest female
Speaker 3: role models at the firm when there really weren't that many.
Speaker 3: There still are not enough across the industry, but many
Speaker 3: more today than back in the late nineties. And then
Speaker 3: certainly I mentioned I've already talked about Jack Brennan, Bill McNabb,
Speaker 3: and Tim Buckley, but certainly Bill McNabb and Tim Buckley
Speaker 3: for sure figure prominently in my career as advocates for
Speaker 3: me over decades. They are still to this day as
Speaker 3: I think about writing my next chapter and what I
Speaker 3: want to do post Vanguard, I still am looking to
Speaker 3: the mentorship and advocacy of both Bill and Tim, so
Speaker 3: very grateful for them both.
Speaker 2: Really really interesting list. Let's talk about books. What are
Speaker 2: some of your favorites? What are you reading currently?
Speaker 3: Well, favorites for sure. You can't spend twenty eight years
Speaker 3: of Vanguard without the required reading. A random walked down
Speaker 3: Wall Street I think was dropped on my chair truly
Speaker 3: within the first month of my joining the firm. One
Speaker 3: of my Burt mais yes Bert Malkil, who is the Yes,
Speaker 3: longtime board member at Vanguard, But really, you know, required
Speaker 3: reading on passive the benefits of passive investing, And you know,
Speaker 3: when I joined Vanguard, I knew about indexing, but I
Speaker 3: didn't know it to the depth that I would later,
Speaker 3: And so that was was an early educational book, probably
Speaker 3: in the same era when Genius failed is a fat
Speaker 3: line yep. Roger Lowenstein and the Rise and Fall of
Speaker 3: long term capital management. Think about when I joined Vanguard
Speaker 3: in ninety seven. You know that was all unfolding in
Speaker 3: the early two thousands. I didn't know anything about hedge funds,
Speaker 3: I didn't know anything about leverage. Really, it moved so
Speaker 3: far afield from what was happening in Malvern, Pennsylvania that
Speaker 3: it was just like a fascinating read and really a
Speaker 3: cautionary tale that for.
Speaker 2: The financial crisis not but a decade later. Correct, all
Speaker 2: those lessons were totally ignored. If anything, maybe it made
Speaker 2: people too cocky. You don't worry about it, The FED puts.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a fair point. What am I
Speaker 3: reading now? I just finished, and I'm like way behind
Speaker 3: the times because a million colleagues had suggested I read
Speaker 3: Outlive by Peter Attia M h. You know it's been
Speaker 3: on the bestseller list for multiple years now. Yeah, but
Speaker 3: fascinating to think about the longevity and the notion of
Speaker 3: health span versus life span. Looking inwardly for each person.
Speaker 3: I have some work to do to live to one hundred,
Speaker 3: but I'm gained for it. And the book on my
Speaker 3: shelf next is related to that. It's called the Longevity Principle,
Speaker 3: and that takes sort of a broader view of how
Speaker 3: society will need to change to support from an infrastructure, healthcare,
Speaker 3: financial sector, all these different dimensions that will need to
Speaker 3: change to support all these people who will be living
Speaker 3: to maybe one hundred in the future and not that
Speaker 3: far away.
Speaker 2: And the conversation the way the math works, if you
Speaker 2: make it into your sixties without dropping debt of a
Speaker 2: heart attack or whatever, the odds of hitting mid eighties
Speaker 2: or beyond go up dramatically, yes, And so suddenly the
Speaker 2: question is, hey, have I saved enough money if I'm
Speaker 2: going to be around to eighty five ninety. It's a
Speaker 2: genuine planning issue for anybody thinking about their financial future.
Speaker 3: You're right. I remember when we first started the personal
Speaker 3: Advisor offer and we were creating the advice methodology, we conservatively.
Speaker 3: You know, our planning horizon was to one hundred years.
Speaker 2: Well, Evan Monte Carlos, that goes to one hundred.
Speaker 3: Yes, And I cannot tell you how many clients at
Speaker 3: the time said that's insane, I'm going to drop that
Speaker 3: at seventy or eighty or whatever, and they would fight
Speaker 3: with us. And now it's you know, it's not inconceivable.
Speaker 2: That doesn't surprise me at all. Our final two questions,
Speaker 2: what advice would you give to a recent college grad
Speaker 2: interested in a career in wealth management or personal financial guidance?
Speaker 3: I would say, for sure, pay attention to the company
Speaker 3: and the mission and purpose of that company. Be proud
Speaker 3: of the company you work for. Worry about that more
Speaker 3: than the job or the starting salary. Think hard about
Speaker 3: the company that you want to connect yourself with. I mean,
Speaker 3: it's it's unlikely that many college grads are going to
Speaker 3: have a twenty eight year run at a company like
Speaker 3: I just did. But even if you're only going to
Speaker 3: be there for a shorter stint, you know, think about
Speaker 3: the company ahead of the actual job you're going to do.
Speaker 3: Because my next piece of advice is do more than
Speaker 3: is asked. Think about how you can contribute outside of,
Speaker 3: you know, your finite job description. Lastly, I would say,
Speaker 3: seek to understand the context. When you join a company
Speaker 3: and you're right out of college and you're eager to
Speaker 3: make a mark, I think it's really important to understand
Speaker 3: what came before you. You know, take the time to
Speaker 3: invest in relationships with your peers and understand the context
Speaker 3: of what's going on at the firm and the history
Speaker 3: behind it before you charge into whatever you're going to do.
Speaker 2: And our final question, what do you know about the
Speaker 2: world of wealth management and investing today That would have
Speaker 2: been useful in nineteen ninety seven when you were first
Speaker 2: getting your feet wet.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well again here I feel like a bit of
Speaker 3: a ringer because not many twenty three year olds have
Speaker 3: the benefit of people like Jack Brennan or Bill McNab, etc.
Speaker 3: Telling them explicitly. I remember sitting in the office with
Speaker 3: Jack Brennan and he said, all you need to do
Speaker 3: is live below your means. And it was something that
Speaker 3: Jack Bobo used to say all the time, and it
Speaker 3: was instilled in you the minute you got into Vanguard,
Speaker 3: along with things like invest in the four oh one
Speaker 3: k and take advantage of the company match and build
Speaker 3: up an emergency fund, and all these things that are
Speaker 3: the basic tenets of financial planning. But when you're in
Speaker 3: your early twenties you don't necessarily focus on These are
Speaker 3: things that I actually, twenty eight years later, have benefited
Speaker 3: from because the magic of compounding was a very real
Speaker 3: thing that I was able to take advantage of before
Speaker 3: perhaps many of my peers who were working at different
Speaker 3: companies where that wasn't such a strong focus, but at
Speaker 3: Vanguard such a strong focus.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you, Karen for being so generous with your time.
Speaker 2: We have been speaking with Karen reci formally of the
Speaker 2: Vanguard Group, now on the board of Harbor. If you
Speaker 2: enjoy this conversation, well, be sure and check out any
Speaker 2: of the five hundred and fifty we've done. You can
Speaker 2: find those at iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, Bloomberg, wherever you find
Speaker 2: your favorite podcast. And be sure and check out my
Speaker 2: new book How Not to Invest The ideas, numbers and
Speaker 2: behaviors that destroy wealth and how to avoid them How
Speaker 2: Not to Invest at your favorite bookstore today. I would
Speaker 2: be remiss if I did not thank the Crack staff
Speaker 2: that helps you put these conversations together each week. John
Speaker 2: Wasserman is my audio engineer. Anna Luke is my producer.
Speaker 2: Sean Russo is my researcher. I'm Barry Rickols. You've been
Speaker 2: listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio.