WEBVTT - Little Panic 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:11.400 This is the Anxiety Bites podcast and I am your host, 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:17.480 Jen Kirkman. Welcome to another episode of Anxiety Bites. I'm 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:22.400 your host, Jen Kirkman. Today's guest is author Amanda Stern. 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:26.000 She wrote a memoir that came out called Little Panic 0:00:26.200 --> 0:00:31.080 Dispatches from an Anxious Life, And yeah, today we talk 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:35.680 a lot about being kids with anxiety and panic disorders 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:40.839 that were not diagnosed when we were little. And you know, 0:00:40.880 --> 0:00:44.040 I was thinking, oh, should the December episodes have like 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:47.320 a Christmas or a holiday theme or something, And I 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:48.800 just didn't really work out that way. You know, I 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:51.320 did a lot of these interviews in advance. But the 0:00:51.360 --> 0:00:54.200 one thing I will say to um any kind of 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:58.280 holiday theme here is that obviously, when we're traveling for 0:00:58.320 --> 0:01:00.760 the holidays, we may go back to our eildhood homes, 0:01:00.840 --> 0:01:03.960 we may reconnect with the child inside of us and 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:06.080 all that kind of thing. And so I guess this 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:08.720 episode is dedicated to the little kid in me that 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:10.800 had no idea what she was going through. And I'm 0:01:10.800 --> 0:01:13.039 not saying it was like traumatic all the time. It really, 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:16.520 to be honest, I don't know if for the most part, 0:01:16.560 --> 0:01:19.560 I remember too many feelings of going, oh, hey, my childhood, 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:22.200 I'm always panicking. It wasn't like that, you know. But 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:25.720 when I did a panic attacks, I certainly, I'm pretty 0:01:25.720 --> 0:01:28.040 sure I thought I was the only one having this stuff, 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:31.440 or definitely the only kid. And oddly Amanda and I, 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:36.759 as we learned, had sort of just missed, uh being 0:01:37.240 --> 0:01:40.200 in the same kind of world in New York City. Um, 0:01:40.280 --> 0:01:42.240 she was sort of in the comedy world for a 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:45.160 little while. She grew up in New York City. I 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:47.080 came to New York in the late nineties and she 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:50.680 was there, but I just missed kind of. She used 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:53.320 to run a storytelling show that perhaps I would have done, 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:55.360 but she started it after I had already moved away. 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:57.560 And but it's just funny to think that there's this 0:01:57.640 --> 0:02:00.559 little kid panicking in Boston, and then there's another little 0:02:00.600 --> 0:02:02.960 kid panicking in New York City, and how many kids 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:05.960 all over America were panicking, and nobody knew what the 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:07.600 hell it was. You know, and you grow up and 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:10.679 you figure it out. And I don't know, there's something 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:12.160 I don't know what I mean. It sounds too hokey, 0:02:12.200 --> 0:02:14.280 But but where I'm saying to the little kid and mey, hey, 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:16.680 you know what, you were totally normal all along. There 0:02:16.760 --> 0:02:19.120 was a thing, there was a name for what you had. 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:21.079 And there is a New York Times article about Amanda's 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:23.600 book and they talk about how because one of the 0:02:23.600 --> 0:02:25.320 themes in her book is that as a kid, she 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:29.240 totally wished she had something on the outside wrong with 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:31.280 her so that people could see it and diagnose it. 0:02:32.040 --> 0:02:34.639 And in the book she writes this is after she 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:37.440 got her panic and anxiety diagnosis when she was a 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:40.680 little older. I've spent my entire life battling some impossible, 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:44.200 invisible plague no one ever seemed to see. And this 0:02:44.200 --> 0:02:46.639 guy did it with such ease, as though panic disorder 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:49.440 is easy to establish, obvious to anyone who would take 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:51.400 the time to ask what my symptoms were. So we 0:02:51.440 --> 0:02:53.720 talk all about panic disorder sort of from a little 0:02:53.800 --> 0:02:56.079 kid's point of view, you know, where it's like, are 0:02:56.120 --> 0:02:58.000 the adults thinking about all of the terrible things that 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:00.520 could happen to me? You know, and and why aren't 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:02.960 they solving this? And in a weird way, when you 0:03:03.000 --> 0:03:05.720 have anxiety, it's like you're not wrong in a way 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:07.720 to go, you know, what if this thing falls, what 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:11.000 if that? What if this but you're training yourself to 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:13.880 think in this disordered way. And reading her book, I 0:03:13.960 --> 0:03:18.520 had this epiphany that when you have panic disorder as 0:03:18.520 --> 0:03:21.120 a kid, and you you do all of these coping 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:23.280 mechanisms that aren't ruling what you should be doing, but 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:24.680 it's the best you know how to do. So you 0:03:24.720 --> 0:03:27.799 might avoid certain things. You might really obsess over things 0:03:27.840 --> 0:03:29.799 and worry about them because you think that's somehow going 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:33.000 to give you some control. It can make you a 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:37.280 little bit of a self focused person, and I think 0:03:37.320 --> 0:03:40.040 that can come off sort of self centered in the 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:44.000 bad way if you're still using those coping mechanisms as 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:46.080 you get older, or you're not really sure. I know, 0:03:46.200 --> 0:03:49.320 for me, I was always so focused on feeling better 0:03:49.400 --> 0:03:52.560 after panic attacks. It just it didn't dawn on me 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:55.520 like I think fully why people had romantic relationships. I 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:57.600 think there was a big part of my early life 0:03:57.600 --> 0:03:59.600 where I thought, you have them to feel safe in 0:03:59.600 --> 0:04:01.840 the world, you know, and I know, to an extent, 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:04.680 like in a lovely way. Of course, any relationship we have, 0:04:04.760 --> 0:04:07.680 whether it's a deep friendship or whatever, of course we feel, 0:04:09.480 --> 0:04:12.840 you know, tethered to our existence by these people that 0:04:12.920 --> 0:04:14.840 know us and see us. And reflect back with us 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:16.720 and tell us we're okay and all that. But in 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:19.159 the literal sense, you don't just grab someone to have 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:21.840 a relationship with and think you'll make everything okay. That's 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:25.760 just nobody else's responsibility. And you know, there's there's all 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:29.200 these things I've I've looked up and and and in 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:31.279 the work I did over the years to stop looking 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:33.160 at relationships that way, and I don't look at them 0:04:33.160 --> 0:04:35.880 that way anymore, of course, But not once in all 0:04:35.920 --> 0:04:38.920 of the work I did that was specific to romantic relationships, 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:41.120 did I did ever done? I mean, well, a lot 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:44.080 of this is just kind of like disordered behavior from 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:46.960 having undiagnosed panic for a long time. You know, It's 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:49.480 just like sometimes the littlest thing hits you. You read 0:04:49.520 --> 0:04:53.200 something and you think, oh, I have a new perspective 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:56.599 on something I went through. And again, as someone who's 0:04:56.640 --> 0:04:59.000 been working on anxiety and all of this for so long, 0:04:59.040 --> 0:05:00.520 I do every once in a while think that I 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:03.120 have nothing left to learn. And it's fun to read 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:05.520 someone's book and think, wow, this just spoke to me. 0:05:05.839 --> 0:05:08.159 I've never looked at my own life this way before. 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:11.839 And so Amanda and I talked about that as well, 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:15.880 but I'm always excited when I find out, oh, this 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:18.840 is a way that having panic and anxiety affected me. 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:22.279 I mean maybe for some people that's depressing. They would think, God, 0:05:22.320 --> 0:05:24.080 I don't want to keep being reminded of things I 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:26.640 screwed up later in life, you know, like, oh, that 0:05:26.680 --> 0:05:28.320 was because I had panic disorder when I was told. 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:29.920 But for me, I just I don't know. I like 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:34.159 to connect dots and create new narratives and just figure 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:37.160 things out. You know. It's sort of like the a 0:05:37.279 --> 0:05:39.560 continuation of of what I liked doing as a kid, 0:05:39.680 --> 0:05:41.840 just trying to figure things out. But now I feel 0:05:41.839 --> 0:05:44.320 like it's in a healthier way. There's more of a curiosity. 0:05:44.400 --> 0:05:46.599 I don't need to figure it out. It's all good. 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:49.360 But back then it was like, you know, let's just 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:51.719 let's just figure this out. This meaning I don't know 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:53.839 what life safety, how do we stay safe? And the 0:05:54.400 --> 0:05:56.200 obviously the key is the more we let go, which 0:05:56.240 --> 0:05:57.960 was not an option for me back when I was little. 0:05:58.000 --> 0:05:59.960 So it was such a joy to talk to Amanda, 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:02.360 And this episode is dedicated to all the little kids 0:06:02.400 --> 0:06:05.120 out there who maybe panicking and have no idea what 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:09.200 it is and if you're a parent, Um, really listen 0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:12.280 hard to this episode and try to try to notice, 0:06:12.400 --> 0:06:15.160 try to notice your kids. And I don't. I don't know. 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:16.760 I don't know what you do. If I were a parent, 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:19.440 I'd be constantly like, if you have panic disorder, let 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:21.280 me know. And my kids would be like, I don't 0:06:21.279 --> 0:06:23.159 know what that is. I I will, but I don't 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:25.120 know what you're saying. Are you pay? Do you feel 0:06:25.160 --> 0:06:26.919 like you can't breathe? Do you feel like you know? 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:29.120 I don't. I would give them panic disorder because they'd 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:31.640 be like, my mom keeps asking about this panic disorder 0:06:31.800 --> 0:06:34.240 and it's actually making me feel short of breath. That's 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:36.480 the other interesting things. Amanda and I don't have kids, 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:42.600 but we feel like really compassionate towards kids about anxiety. 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:45.000 And she we talked in the interview she wrote a 0:06:45.040 --> 0:06:49.600 great newsletter about what to do if your child has 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:52.039 panic disorder. So we'll talk about it in there, and 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:54.839 of course I'll link to everything in the show notes. 0:06:54.920 --> 0:06:58.880 But um, yes, obviously. Amanda is the author of Little Panic. 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:01.200 It's her most recent book, a memoir about growing up 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:05.360 with an undiagnosed panic disorder. She's now a mental health advocate, 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:08.559 speaker and advisory board member for Bring Change to Mind. 0:07:09.200 --> 0:07:12.200 As a writer, she lives in Brooklyn, as she's required to. 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:14.360 That's a joke on her website. She's the author of 0:07:14.400 --> 0:07:17.280 The Long Haul and eleven books for children, written under 0:07:17.280 --> 0:07:21.120 the pseudonyms A. J. Stern and Fiona Rosenbloom. In two 0:07:21.160 --> 0:07:23.840 thousand three, she founded the legendary Happy Ending Music and 0:07:23.880 --> 0:07:28.400 reading series, which required creative artists to take risks on stage. 0:07:29.320 --> 0:07:33.040 The multidisciplinary series became the gold standard for literary events. 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:35.920 Many of today's series are knowingly and unknowingly based Unhappy 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:40.120 Endings model. The series ended in It was produced at 0:07:40.160 --> 0:07:42.440 Joe's Pub and later at Symphony Space and again. Her 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:44.720 most recent book is Little Panic, that we will be 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:47.880 talking about now and all information about Amanda will be 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:51.400 linked to in the show notes. But enjoy our chat. 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:57.560 I am here with Amanda. Start Amandaster and thank you 0:07:57.560 --> 0:08:00.600 for being on Anxiety Bites. Thanks for having me. We 0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:04.640 have very similar childhood brains, I'll say, even if our 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:08.040 childhoods were different. Um and Amanda Stern is the author 0:08:09.120 --> 0:08:14.880 of the wonderful uh memoir called Little Panic. Dispatches from 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:20.160 an Anxious Life, but Um, your book Little Panic Dispatches 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:23.920 from an Anxious Life is I hope this is a compliment. 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:26.880 I mean it as one. It's the Uncut Gems of Books. 0:08:26.920 --> 0:08:31.080 Does that make sense? Do you know that movie? I don't. Okay. 0:08:31.360 --> 0:08:34.120 It's an Adam Sandler movie that came out last year, 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:37.120 and the directors of this film are known for making 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:40.520 movies that make you feel like so in it when 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:42.679 you're watching them that you're like stressed out in your 0:08:42.720 --> 0:08:45.720 heart rates up. But that's part of it. Good, um. 0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:49.280 And what I love about your writing is that you're 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:52.800 not writing it from Hello, I'm Amanda the adult and 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:54.120 this is what it was like as a child, Like 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:58.000 you're talking to us as your childhood self. Do you 0:08:58.040 --> 0:08:59.840 like how I'm explaining your book to you? Like you could? 0:08:59.840 --> 0:09:03.440 I do? I? Actually I would like this for my 0:09:03.559 --> 0:09:05.560 entire life. I would like someone to walk with me, 0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:08.800 side by side and explain the entire world to me 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:12.040 step by step. This is actually like very soothing. Well 0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:13.600 I feel like I'm being a man splainer, but I 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:16.720 really am just saying this through the listen. Um. But 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:18.760 what I like about it is that it just it 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:20.440 just gets you in the heart, you know, and then 0:09:20.480 --> 0:09:22.400 at certain points you go, oh my god, there's so 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:26.000 many anxious thoughts. But what I love about it is 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:30.480 when you read someone's memoir, I'm always like, how do 0:09:30.559 --> 0:09:32.680 they remember this? You know, it'll be like I was 0:09:32.720 --> 0:09:34.520 twelve years old and the girl who sat next to 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:37.160 me had a pink shirt on, and it's not a 0:09:37.240 --> 0:09:40.079 very traumatic story. It's just a detail that they remember. 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:42.840 And I think, I don't remember anything from my life 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:48.920 at all, but I remember every single anxious thought I've had. 0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:51.880 And I believe, not that I did. Don't believe people's memoirs, 0:09:51.880 --> 0:09:54.680 but I know I didn't ask myself while reading your book, 0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:57.280 how did she remember this? I know how you can't. 0:09:57.679 --> 0:10:01.439 It's it's in your body, right, So so I don't know. 0:10:01.440 --> 0:10:03.760 I'm gonna stop talking and let you be interviewed here. 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:07.960 But I guess that's probably want to start is childhood, 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:15.320 undiagnosed panic and anxiety. Um, that was your life, And 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:18.840 I guess what I want to say is take me through. 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:20.920 I think something that was so interesting in the book 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:24.240 is you talk a lot about your relationship with your 0:10:24.240 --> 0:10:27.000 mother and how you would say, well, what's going to happen? 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:28.559 You know, are you going to die or are we 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:30.000 ever going to lose the house, And she would just 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:33.200 say no, these things aren't going to happen, which I 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:37.280 think is really sweet instinct to try to soothe you. 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:39.920 But I think what us anxious people realize is that's 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:44.000 not true. Like we know bad things are happening and 0:10:44.000 --> 0:10:46.080 we are disordered, and how much we want to plan 0:10:46.160 --> 0:10:49.079 for it. But it makes it worse when you tell 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:51.199 us that's never going to happen, and then it does. 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:53.840 It's like you have just now set the foundation for 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:56.600 our world to shatter. Right, So can you talk to 0:10:56.640 --> 0:10:59.280 me about your relationship with your mother and what what 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:02.200 you think she should have done differently and and what 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:07.559 it was like as a kid who had so many questions? Yeah, um, well, 0:11:08.520 --> 0:11:10.400 you know, first, I want to say that I think 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:15.959 that what I would like people to understand about anxiety, 0:11:16.920 --> 0:11:20.160 for the people who don't really understand it, especially childhood anxiety, 0:11:20.320 --> 0:11:27.000 is that it's the uncertainty that is so distressing. And 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:30.280 when a child is constantly asking what if, what if? 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:34.160 What if? What they're actually asking for is can you 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:38.640 give me some certainty either way, either it's yes, this 0:11:38.760 --> 0:11:43.960 bad thing happens, or you know, yes, uh, this good 0:11:44.000 --> 0:11:46.800 thing happens, you know, or no, none of this happens. 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:50.320 But they're asking for a sense of certainty. And that 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:53.600 doesn't mean it needs to be positive, it just needs 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:56.440 to be honest. So I think that for me as 0:11:56.520 --> 0:12:02.080 a kid, I was um sort of gripped with fear 0:12:02.320 --> 0:12:07.280 about the unknown. And when you know you're in that grip, 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:11.440 you really the unknown becomes a type of extinction, a 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:15.360 type of death. Not knowing equal death. And so if 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:20.280 I could have someone explained to me what happens, if 0:12:20.320 --> 0:12:23.720 this happens, then I would feel less like I was 0:12:23.880 --> 0:12:26.520 going towards death. Then I would have the sort of 0:12:26.600 --> 0:12:31.080 tools and the skills too, and the steps to you know, 0:12:31.720 --> 0:12:35.839 address my kidnapper I got kidnapped or you know. So 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:41.200 I really wanted clarity about these scary things. It wasn't 0:12:41.240 --> 0:12:44.760 that I needed someone to say, don't worry, these things 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:48.679 won't happen. I needed someone to say, Okay, here are there, 0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:55.040 here's here the steps should something happen. It's interesting because 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:57.120 you grew up in New York City. I mean, it's 0:12:57.160 --> 0:12:59.360 strange to me that your mom didn't have you know, 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:03.400 and in the eighties, it's like at least where I 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:05.360 grew up in the suburbs, it was very much we're 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:07.440 going to talk about strangers with vans, and you're going 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:11.000 to need a password. And my mom's thing was growing 0:13:11.040 --> 0:13:13.559 up in the eighties was don't get in a car 0:13:13.600 --> 0:13:15.480 with anyone unless they have the password that you and 0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:19.439 your family have the verbal password, you know, like potatoes 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:22.199 and my mom because we don't need a password because 0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:26.160 no one is ever picking uump except me a your father. 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:28.920 So when I's doing passwords, so my mom always went 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:31.880 like an extra step that was I don't know if 0:13:31.880 --> 0:13:34.199 that was good or bad, but it just cracked me 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:37.440 up because, uh, you know, people would ask me what's 0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:39.400 your password and they think my parents were bad parents, 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:41.240 and I'm like, well, there's because I'm never getting in 0:13:41.240 --> 0:13:44.240 a car with anyone period. You know, even if if 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:46.520 my leg is brokelyn, I probably wouldn't have gotten in 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:49.400 an ambulance one came by. But but so it's interesting 0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:51.199 to me that that your mom didn't say like, oh, well, 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:53.480 when you walk down the street, I mean nothing, There 0:13:53.520 --> 0:13:57.560 was never any content like was she what was her problem? Was? 0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:00.520 There was some stuff where she would say, you know, 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:03.839 there were some tips like, well, if someone is following you, 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:06.200 go into the first store that you see, like that 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:09.319 was helpful. Um, you know, but I think it took 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:12.520 a lot of badgering for me to get there. And 0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:16.680 I think it's because what I have figured out is 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:21.400 that my mother didn't want me to have to suffer 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:28.160 with discomfort because she can't deal with discomfort. Discomfort in 0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:33.280 her own body is so awful that she wanted to 0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:36.440 spare me from that. And and in doing so, what 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:39.320 she did was she made it so that I also 0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:46.040 became afraid of discomfort in my body. Um. And so 0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:51.000 she did not how to do for herself what would 0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:54.320 have helped me. Right, So it's not like she has 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:56.840 the answer and just not telling you to protect exactly, 0:14:56.920 --> 0:15:00.400 you're probably freaking her out with all your questions, right, 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:03.480 And it's yeah, she doesn't know, she doesn't know, she 0:15:03.520 --> 0:15:06.600 didn't know, And you know, my mom is very smart, 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:15.240 but she's incredibly um naive and she you know, she's 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:18.720 always had other people do things for her because she hasn't. 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:22.240 I think she's very overwhelmed by having to figure things 0:15:22.240 --> 0:15:27.080 out on her own, so she doesn't really try. She 0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:30.120 asks other people to do it. So she's not really 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:34.320 learning how to do things for herself, and I am 0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:41.239 the opposite, Um, because I need information. I need information. 0:15:41.320 --> 0:15:45.760 I need to learn how to overcome, you know, being 0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:48.880 held back in the ways that I'm held back because 0:15:48.920 --> 0:15:53.560 I don't want to be helpless. UM. So it's just 0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:56.640 an it's an interesting dynamic. UM. But as a child 0:15:56.920 --> 0:16:00.600 it was similar because I wanted to learn. I wanted 0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:04.840 to know. I wanted to know everything, and she didn't know. So, 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:09.680 you know, it was just it was difficult. And my dad, 0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:13.800 you know, he mocked everything. So when I would ask him, 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:16.400 you know, I adopted or am I this, he would 0:16:16.440 --> 0:16:20.760 make jokes and so I never got an answer from him. UM. 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:24.120 So in some ways, that like it made me into 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:29.440 a person who is constantly reading, constantly studying, constantly learning, 0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:35.160 constantly seeking, constantly you know, trying to grow and um. 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:40.440 And I appreciate that about myself. You know, Um, I 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:43.040 can maybe go off the deep end of it, um, 0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:47.000 but I still appreciate that that's a part of my life. 0:16:48.040 --> 0:16:50.640 I just don't like the way I got there. I 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:52.440 don't like the way I got here either in terms 0:16:52.480 --> 0:16:55.120 of like how many years I suffered unnecessarily and I 0:16:55.160 --> 0:16:59.200 love information. I mean don't I'm always like, don't bullshit me. 0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:01.800 And I think that's the problem with anxiety. Those sometimes 0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:05.720 we think we're right and it's like, don't bullshit me here, 0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:08.560 and no one's I'm trying to think of a solid 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:12.119 example from my life where it's like I'm over predicting 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:16.080 everything that could possibly happen because I don't want to. 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:18.560 I don't want to be taken by surprise. And it's like, 0:17:18.800 --> 0:17:23.240 sometimes you're gonna be taken by surprise, you know, right, yeah, 0:17:23.280 --> 0:17:25.840 And it's you know, that's sort of overthinking is like 0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:30.000 a strategy to deal with uncertainty, but it doesn't work. 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:33.480 It doesn't work because you're not gonna be able to 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:37.680 stop the surprise. But you can, as you know, deal 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:41.080 with what happens when you feel surprised and understand what 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:44.160 happens in your body, that flooded emotional feeling you get 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:46.320 when you get that phone called like oh my god, 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:49.159 did someone die or you know. But I know a 0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:51.600 lot of friends now who are having kids, and I 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:54.560 watched them and I'm just sort of going, you, guys, 0:17:54.720 --> 0:17:56.560 this is a huge waste of time. They are doing 0:17:56.560 --> 0:17:59.800 everything they can to prevent their children from having anxiety. 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:07.119 It's horrible anxious. They're doing it all wrong. We'll be 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:16.040 right back. So let's say this, whether it's you're just 0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:18.639 any kid, the kids asking their mom, okay, well we 0:18:18.680 --> 0:18:20.320 will we always live in this house. Are you gonna 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:23.200 die someday? Blah blah blah, and we all say like, gee, 0:18:23.240 --> 0:18:24.840 it would have been great if they were just honest 0:18:24.920 --> 0:18:29.280 with us. But you, you weren't the average kid, like 0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:33.160 you had anxiety. So do you think though that your 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:37.359 anxious brain? It is almost like saying, oh, it would 0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:39.399 have been better at this, but are you right about that? 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:42.520 Like would your anxious brain have been able to handle 0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:45.200 if she told you the truth about something? Or would 0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:47.199 you would the goal post keep moving you like? And 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:49.719 then one't? You know? I think it would keep moving. 0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:52.239 But I think that it would have taught me a 0:18:52.240 --> 0:18:58.120 little bit more about how to um that everything has steps, 0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:01.840 you know, and and it would have taught me how 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:04.760 to sort of figure some stuff out for myself or 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:06.879 ask myself, well, what will happen then? And then what? 0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:09.639 And then what and then what. I didn't even have 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:13.720 the opportunity to say and then what because there was 0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:17.119 no answer to anything, so everything was possible, and that 0:19:17.240 --> 0:19:20.159 was just too much. So I think that, yes, I 0:19:20.200 --> 0:19:23.600 think I would have been soothed by her answer for 0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:26.520 a day or two, and then there would have been 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:28.959 new questions, and then there would have been new questions. 0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:33.040 But I do think that ultimately it would have taught 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:36.160 me how to do for myself what I needed someone 0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:39.680 else to do for me, you know what I mean. Yeah, 0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:42.080 And and you know, one of my I mean, it's favorite, 0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:45.040 it's upsetting, but it's still really well done. Part of 0:19:45.040 --> 0:19:48.040 the book is the little boy that went missing between 0:19:48.440 --> 0:19:51.880 a m and ten what was his name again, Aton 0:19:51.960 --> 0:19:55.439 pats At Pats and he, you know, he goes missing 0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:59.120 and you're just like, wait a minute, I mean, you're 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:02.400 you know, obsessed with that, and people keep saying, oh, hell, 0:20:02.680 --> 0:20:04.920 he's not missing, he'll come home. But what was really 0:20:04.960 --> 0:20:07.639 shocking to me was, you know, you're you're right, you know, 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:10.560 he nobody at school noticed he wasn't there. It wasn't 0:20:10.600 --> 0:20:12.959 like at eight eleven they realized he was missing. The 0:20:13.000 --> 0:20:15.359 rest of the day they it took them to realize 0:20:15.359 --> 0:20:17.040 he was missing. Where was the bus driver, where's the 0:20:17.560 --> 0:20:19.919 you know, the teachers? And then when you said the 0:20:19.960 --> 0:20:22.400 cops came to your house too, I don't know, look 0:20:22.440 --> 0:20:24.439 around or look on the room, and you're going, well, 0:20:24.440 --> 0:20:26.560 why aren't they looking in there? They're not being good lookers. 0:20:26.840 --> 0:20:29.040 It's it's so cute as a kid, but you're like, no, 0:20:29.160 --> 0:20:32.080 but this is this is something I would always just 0:20:32.160 --> 0:20:35.359 kind of insist on when I was younger and when 0:20:35.400 --> 0:20:37.280 I was anxious, and I still do it. Sometimes it's 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:39.480 not a great quality I have, but I'm like, I'm right, 0:20:39.960 --> 0:20:42.320 I know, I'm right. You guys aren't doing a good 0:20:42.400 --> 0:20:45.119 enough job at keeping the world a safe place. Like 0:20:45.480 --> 0:20:50.360 let me run this. Yeah, it's really difficult. It's really challenging, 0:20:50.680 --> 0:20:53.000 and when you're a kid, it's overwhelming in a very 0:20:53.040 --> 0:20:58.320 different way because you're realizing with the sinking feeling, oh 0:20:58.359 --> 0:21:03.399 my god, you're people I'm trusting, Like you're you're the 0:21:03.400 --> 0:21:08.680 ones because your cumps, you're you're actually supposed to save 0:21:08.720 --> 0:21:11.760 my life. And you are not even looking under the 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:16.160 beds or in the closet like you're you're on a roof. 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:18.399 For what is a six year old going to be 0:21:18.440 --> 0:21:21.440 doing on a roof? You know, how's he gonna get there? How? 0:21:21.640 --> 0:21:26.040 That's not where you look, dudes. So yeah, I just 0:21:26.080 --> 0:21:29.840 felt like no one knew what they were doing, and 0:21:30.200 --> 0:21:32.520 I didn't even really know what I was doing, but 0:21:32.560 --> 0:21:37.879