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Speaker 1: The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to the Book of Joe podcast. League Championship

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Speaker 2: Series Edition. We're midway through the two lcs's. We've seen

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Speaker 2: some great baseball, especially some great pitching. Joe Madden, I'm

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Speaker 2: Tom Berducci. Of course, I know you're a huge fan

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Speaker 2: of Diners, right, the famous Third Base Diners. It's a

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Speaker 2: second home for you. Right, yep, there's of diners too.

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Speaker 2: But I gotta tell you, when I walk into a

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Speaker 2: diner and I get that menu, I get a little overwhelmed.

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Speaker 2: It's like so many good things on there. I never

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Speaker 2: know what to order right, even at night. I want breakfast,

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Speaker 2: But is it an omelet? Is it eggs? It can

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Speaker 2: be intimidating. So what I'm gonna do is hand you

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Speaker 2: the menu right now as we're talking about the League

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Speaker 2: Championship Series, I want you to pick out your order here. Like,

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Speaker 2: what stands out to Joe Madden watching all these innings

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Speaker 2: of baseball LCS that really caught your eye? What's the

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Speaker 2: most I don't know, I don't want to say different,

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Speaker 2: but most interesting thing you've seen watching these games early on?

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Speaker 3: Well, the one, I mean the one most interesting moment

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Speaker 3: was the double play that the Brewers pulled and the

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Speaker 3: ball off the center field fanser. I mean, the thing

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Speaker 3: about that play that impressed me as much as anything

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Speaker 3: was that the Brewer players knew what to do, you know,

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Speaker 3: they they knew exactly how to react to it. The

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Speaker 3: throws are outstanding, the ball gets the controls, he he

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Speaker 3: knows he's a forest play that he runs the third

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Speaker 3: base doesn't want to even attempt to throw the baseball.

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Speaker 3: He just knew what was going on. And I love

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Speaker 3: that because I, you know, watching it, I didn't realize

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Speaker 3: that the ball at glove fans and back to the

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Speaker 3: player of the outfielder. I didn't see that. But and

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Speaker 3: even Chad Fairchild, the third base on part I think

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Speaker 3: it was third base, he saw it. So there were

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Speaker 3: so many good things that happened on a baseball stuff

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Speaker 3: on a baseball level. You never get to see that

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Speaker 3: oun't even though nobody that is a one timer for

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Speaker 3: me and probably for everybody else that watched the game often,

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Speaker 3: so that I thought was an outstanding baseball play on

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Speaker 3: the part of the Brewers knowing what to do. And

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Speaker 3: then furthermore, umpire has got a lot of criticism. Really,

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Speaker 3: Chad did the right thing on I note Chad for

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Speaker 3: a long time, so I love that. The other part

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Speaker 3: is when starting pitchers go deep into the games, the

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Speaker 3: team normally does well. It's normally a good outcome. And

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Speaker 3: that's the one thing. And I was thinking about this

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Speaker 3: the other day, and this is off the beaten path

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Speaker 3: a little bit, but I want to throw it out there.

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Speaker 3: You know, the minor leagues and how we get our

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Speaker 3: pitchers to develop and get to the big leagues. I

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Speaker 3: would like to propose that as a starting pitcher in

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Speaker 3: the minor leagues, you have to go the third time

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Speaker 3: through the batting order in order to be able to

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Speaker 3: be promoted. Almost you have to be able to manifest

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Speaker 3: and do that and navigate your way through that. I

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Speaker 3: would insist on my minor league starters being able to

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Speaker 3: go through the third time through the batting order to

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Speaker 3: actually see what that feels like and then eventually know

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Speaker 3: how to do it. Thus, you have starters going deeper

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Speaker 3: into games, this constant parade of relief pitches. I'm telling you, man,

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Speaker 3: from a dugout perspective, it's you're lucky. I'm gonna say

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Speaker 3: you're lucky when it works out that somebody doesn't have

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Speaker 3: a bad day. You're just lucky. To do that on

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Speaker 3: a nightly basis for that many innings is really difficult.

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Speaker 3: It's almost impossible with any kind of consistency. So I

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Speaker 3: say that play. I love when the starters go deep.

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Speaker 3: I do think that the bullpen parade is hard to

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Speaker 3: consider it reliable. And then, of course the home run

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Speaker 3: is the home run again.

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Speaker 2: Now see, I knew you would pick me out a

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Speaker 2: really nice fluffy omelet Swiss cheese. There's some veggies, some

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Speaker 2: avocado thrown in there, and then you out ordered me Joe,

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Speaker 2: because I hadn't thought about that. It's a great point

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Speaker 2: you bring up the way the initial reaction on what

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Speaker 2: was a very confusing play by so many people on

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Speaker 2: a field, especially wearing Brewers uniforms. It was really impressive.

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Speaker 2: I mean, getting the ball in quickly, that's kind of

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Speaker 2: a no brainer. But the relay was set up perfectly.

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Speaker 2: You saw Contraro's not just as you mentioned, running down

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Speaker 2: the third base and getting the second out, but stretching

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Speaker 2: to get the force play at the plate, you know,

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Speaker 2: knowing that it was not attack situation. It was one

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Speaker 2: of those players, Joe, I gotta admit, there's not many

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Speaker 2: times I've seen anything like quite like that. And it's like,

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Speaker 2: after the player is over, you're asking yourself, you kind

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Speaker 2: of taking the inventory what just happened, right, And it

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Speaker 2: seemed like the Brewers solved that in real time. So

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Speaker 2: we know they're one of the smarter teams in baseball,

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Speaker 2: and they certainly showed it on that one particular play.

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Speaker 2: Your second point, we definitely need to talk about this,

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Speaker 2: the bullpening carousel in the postseason. The Dodgers are bringing

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Speaker 2: us back to I don't know, nineteen sixties Dodgers right

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Speaker 2: started pitching going deep in the game. I had said, Joe,

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Speaker 2: going back, I'm saying before the season started, if the

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Speaker 2: Dodgers had three of their big four healthy, we're talking

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Speaker 2: about Glasnow, snell Yamamoto, Otani, no one's going to beat them.

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Speaker 2: They're all four healthy, they're all four throwing great. And

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Speaker 2: we talked all year about the Brewers and we love

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Speaker 2: watching them play baseball fundamentally sound, put the ball in play,

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Speaker 2: don't strike out, run the base as well, catch on defense.

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Speaker 2: Telling you, Joe, we're seeing this it's all about power.

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Speaker 2: I hate to say that, but power are on the mound,

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Speaker 2: power at the plate is going to win out over

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Speaker 2: little ball. In these small sample sizes of the postseason.

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Speaker 2: Right now, the Dodgers to me look like the baseball

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Speaker 2: team everybody said in the offseason that they're too good

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Speaker 2: for baseball. Now they could be stopped. You know, it's baseball,

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Speaker 2: nothing certain, But this is the Dodgers at full strength, which, ironically,

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Speaker 2: and maybe not ironically, maybe they plan it this way,

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Speaker 2: we haven't seen all year. This is the team that

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Speaker 2: Dodgers planned for to have in October, and here it is,

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Speaker 2: and anybody in their way they're running over.

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Speaker 3: Well, two things. We'll get back to that. But there's

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Speaker 3: a spring training game that's breaking out into the playoffs,

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Speaker 3: right I mean, that's the way they're running the pitching

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Speaker 3: staffs right now is exactly what you do in the camp,

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Speaker 3: and that is, you know, you predetermine, you got these

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Speaker 3: guys coming out, You got your little slots working. Guys

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Speaker 3: are just pretty pretty much getting they're working at that time.

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Speaker 3: Obviously they're not now, but it's a spring training game.

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Speaker 3: It's just constant flow relief pitchers, and I don't think

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Speaker 3: that does the game justice. I don't. Like I said,

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Speaker 3: it starts in the minor leagues for me, and I

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Speaker 3: would insist that my and I would get my starters

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Speaker 3: and I would stop babying them and I would let

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Speaker 3: them pitch and throw bigger numbers and get them deeper

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Speaker 3: into games and know what it feels like. All of

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Speaker 3: that stuff would be a big part of a minor

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Speaker 3: league situation. If I had an opportunity to do something

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Speaker 3: like that, I think that would be number one. Because

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Speaker 3: you're saying why it is so important right now, and

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Speaker 3: to buy that stuff is very, very expensive. To nurture

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Speaker 3: it on your own. I had like Shields and Cobb

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Speaker 3: and Price, Jeff Neeman, Jeremy Hellison, Kasmer, I had all

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Speaker 3: these dudes back in the day that were able to

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Speaker 3: do these kinds of things. I mean, we talked about this,

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Speaker 3: the raise pitching stuff every spring. My thought to them

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Speaker 3: was what my request would be a thousand innings among

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Speaker 3: our starters. And I'm not talking like ten or eleven

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Speaker 3: or twelve. I'm talking about, you know, five plus maybe

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Speaker 3: two or three other guys, so that needs to come

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Speaker 3: back for some team. That would be my starting point

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Speaker 3: that in defense, learning how to play the game fundament.

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Speaker 3: That's where would begin. Number two. This might be the

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Speaker 3: best version of the Dodgers we're seeing, like even compared

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Speaker 3: to last year, because right now they're doing all this

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Speaker 3: in Show heyes, not even hot. I mean show, he's

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Speaker 3: like had some really bad at bats and he's gonna

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Speaker 3: be fine, of course, but right now he's not contributing.

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Speaker 3: He's contributing in the way that he's forcing their hands

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Speaker 3: to move to Mooki when Show's not hot. But you know,

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Speaker 3: you could totally understand that. But he's even even when

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Speaker 3: he's not doing well, as presence benefits the rest of

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Speaker 3: the team. So all those things are in play. This

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Speaker 3: might be the best version of the Dodgers. They're playing

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Speaker 3: with so much confidence. And again we've talked about this

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Speaker 3: Andrew and the boys, they've known this all year. They

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Speaker 3: at least they felt this was going to be this

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Speaker 3: way all year. They're slow playing it. They want to

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Speaker 3: make sure everybody's well healthy at this time of the year.

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Speaker 3: They knew just they just knew just by watching the

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Speaker 3: groups and the other teams, we're gonna be fire. We're

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Speaker 3: gonna get to the playoffs, and at that time we

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Speaker 3: want to it's like tournament baseball when I played for

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Speaker 3: the Bolder Collegians in the seventies. You get to the

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Speaker 3: tournament and Baldy Muscheti, the owner, would start drawing players

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Speaker 3: from Grand Junction or Liberal Kansas and you turn it

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Speaker 3: into this all star team and it was hard to beat.

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Speaker 3: And pretty much the Dodgers pretty much do that. They're Dodgers,

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Speaker 3: but they're pulling them in from injured lists or you know,

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Speaker 3: taking care of them or not pushing them too hard

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Speaker 3: because they can't because they got so much ability both

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Speaker 3: in the miners in the major leagues that they can

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Speaker 3: do this and that's works to their benefit.

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Speaker 2: A great point, by the way, on show Hey on

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Speaker 2: being that piece on the chessboard even when he's not

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Speaker 2: hitting that you have to account for the Dodgers. You're

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Speaker 2: seeing this are a matchup nightmare. And when you're a

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Speaker 2: team like the Brewers, it's just hard for them to

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Speaker 2: keep trying to match up. I mean, give me platoon

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Speaker 2: neutral pitchers, please, and that absolutely that typically is going

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Speaker 2: to be your starting pitchers, right, But in this case,

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Speaker 2: I thought the Brewers about a month ago were lined

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Speaker 2: up well for the postseason and thinking Peralta Wood Miserowski,

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Speaker 2: the big three right platoon neutral all guys with great

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Speaker 2: fastballs who come right after you can take the ball

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Speaker 2: into the sixth inning, can pitch third time around, no problem.

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Speaker 2: That hasn't happened. They're short on pitching now. Woodroff got

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Speaker 2: hurt Misszerowski for whatever reason, lost command, and then the

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Speaker 2: Brewers got off him a little bit. They never really

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Speaker 2: restored his confidence and got him back into the zone

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Speaker 2: enough to trust him as a starting pitching. He's trying

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Speaker 2: to think, Okay, let's use that one hundred and four

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Speaker 2: mile an hour fastball is a weapon of the bullpen,

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Speaker 2: which is fine, but it's fine when you have some

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Speaker 2: length from your starters, which they don't have. And when

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Speaker 2: you get pushed Joe, I know, probably brings back some

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Speaker 2: bad memories for you. You get pushed in the DS

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Speaker 2: to a five game, knockdown, drag out fight. You can't

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Speaker 2: go up against a team like the Dodgers of full strength,

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Speaker 2: and you're seeing that that's playing out. They don't have

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Speaker 2: enough pitching. They have to keep going to the bullpen

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Speaker 2: to try to match up against the Dodger lineup. It

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Speaker 2: can't happen for the Brewers like this This is kind

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Speaker 2: of their worst scenario that is playing out in front

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Speaker 2: of them. Murph is up against it, no question about it.

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Speaker 2: That team is always ready to play. But I think

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Speaker 2: right now, I don't want to say it's a mismatch,

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Speaker 2: but the way the Dodgers pitched the first two games,

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Speaker 2: I think the Brewers haven't really had much of a chance.

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Speaker 2: I think about this, Joe, this is amazing. Yeah, you

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Speaker 2: talked about you know, going deep, obviously, Yamamoto the complete game,

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Speaker 2: Snell going eight. What do you think the percentage of

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Speaker 2: fastballs is that the Dodgers threw in the first two

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Speaker 2: games to win the first two games of spectacular pitching

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Speaker 2: and guys who are throwing in the upper nineties, the

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Speaker 2: percentage of fastballs by the Dodgers games one and two.

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Speaker 3: Less than fifty percent.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot less, Okay, It's just amazing. Between Snell's

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Speaker 2: change up, which has really developed into a great, great pitch,

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Speaker 2: Yamamoto is split and his curveball and everything else. He's

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Speaker 2: got a good luck to the Brewers because you still

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Speaker 2: have to honor upper nineties, but you're seeing, you know,

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Speaker 2: two thirds secondary stuff with command. It's been impressive. With

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Speaker 2: the Dodgers have done.

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Speaker 3: If you're describing also the very difficult DS that was

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Speaker 3: the twenty seventeen Cubs against the Nationals Washington went five games,

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Speaker 3: really as gruesomely wonderful series I've ever participated in, and

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Speaker 3: we eventually won the fifth game in Washington against a

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Speaker 3: very good, very good Washington team. And then eventually we

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Speaker 3: headed to LA and we had an issue on the airplane,

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Speaker 3: have spend the night on the ground in Albuquerque. Eventually

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Speaker 3: get to LA the next day, I think around noon.

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Speaker 3: And this is like we had left after the game

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Speaker 3: the night before. You're sleeping on the plane, and then

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Speaker 3: you get there the next day, a little you know,

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Speaker 3: difference in temperature, a little bit warmer, and then the

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Speaker 3: boys didn't have to go to the ballpark, but we

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Speaker 3: did play the next day. I think, you know that

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Speaker 3: late afternoon game where the sun's ridiculous and you're just

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Speaker 3: you know, you're buzzed out. Man. It's a really difficult

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Speaker 3: moment mentally, just because of the severity of the previous series,

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Speaker 3: the lack of sleep, the lack of rest. I know

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Speaker 3: your professionals are supposed to get it going, but trust me,

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Speaker 3: it's not easy. And then that's that's, you know, kind

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Speaker 3: of what happened. Plus I used wayde Davis like two

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Speaker 3: plus to win that game, but he was the only

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Speaker 3: person I thought could get that done at that moment.

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Speaker 3: So I think it was two and a third that

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Speaker 3: Wade went in Washington. I think he struck out Harpard

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Speaker 3: in the game to get us to go to the

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Speaker 3: NL see US. So you do you expend so much energy?

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Speaker 3: Sometimes you have to. I mean, there's no other thing

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Speaker 3: that you're just trying to win tonight's game and advance

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Speaker 3: and move on. But there is a price to pay sometimes,

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Speaker 3: and maybe that's what you're talking about here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, MERV talked about very similar Joe not just using

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Speaker 2: up the pitching, but he called it an emotional series

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Speaker 2: against the Cubs, and sometimes momentum is great, an emotion

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Speaker 2: is good, but when it's night after night, it can

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Speaker 2: take a toll. The other thing Murph mentioned, I mentioned

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Speaker 2: all the breaking pitches and off speed pitches Los Angeles

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Speaker 2: threw in those two games. He made it a point

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Speaker 2: to congratulate or at least acknowledge the job that Smith

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Speaker 2: did behind the plate. Will Smith one of the better

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Speaker 2: catchers in the game, and the way he runs that staff.

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Speaker 2: I thought that was very interesting that Murph would acknowledge

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Speaker 2: that to say the other pitching was great, but he

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Speaker 2: gave a lot of credit to the pitch calling of

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Speaker 2: Will Smith. And I look around these games, Joe and man,

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Speaker 2: you better have a really good catcher. I know that's obvious.

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Speaker 2: It was the classic line from Casey Stangel. Of course,

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Speaker 2: I need a good catcher on the sixty two Mets.

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Speaker 2: If you don't have a good catcher, there'll be a

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Speaker 2: lot of pass balls. But you know, Will Smith, You've

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Speaker 2: got cal Raley to me, runs a game as well

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Speaker 2: as anybody I've seen since Yadia Molina. You know Alejandro

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Speaker 2: Kirk one of the best in the business and framing pitches.

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Speaker 2: Contraras is more of an offensive guy, but he has

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Speaker 2: really improved behind the plate. Break me through, Joe, you

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Speaker 2: know your former catcher. You know the importance of catchers,

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Speaker 2: but especially in the postseason environment when there's so much

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Speaker 2: attention paid to sequencing and patterns and you're seeing the

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Speaker 2: same hitters night after night after night. As you get

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Speaker 2: deeper into his series, the job that these catchers and

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Speaker 2: the responsibilities that they have.

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Speaker 3: I'll tell you one of the yes. And one of

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Speaker 3: the biggest responsibilities is that just purely the relationship between

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Speaker 3: them and the pitcher, where there's a high level of

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Speaker 3: trust going on and the highest call implement or praise

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Speaker 3: you could ever receive as a catcher. And I felt

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Speaker 3: this way was when a pitcher would say, I really

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Speaker 3: love throwing to you. I want to throw to you

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Speaker 3: because there was other catchers on the team, Guys would

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Speaker 3: come to you, they want to throw to you. Whenever

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Speaker 3: they said that, Wow, I mean you knew you were

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Speaker 3: doing something right. There's that that synergy between the two

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Speaker 3: of you. It so matters. So if you talk to

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Speaker 3: all these pictures on these different teams, I would bet

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Speaker 3: that they talk about how much they love throwing to

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Speaker 3: Smith or Rawley or Contreras whomever. I think that's number one.

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Speaker 3: After that, a lot of it has to do with

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Speaker 3: your ability to retain and ability. This is an area

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Speaker 3: that I really like analytics, the ability to stick to

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Speaker 3: the script, because there's sometimes you run into a catcher,

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Speaker 3: maybe more of a veteran catcher that really, you know,

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Speaker 3: he wants to get more feeling involved in this. What

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Speaker 3: am I feeling? One of my And that's one area

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Speaker 3: where I prefer staying to a script is on How'm

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Speaker 3: going to pitch to Tom Verducci, because it's pretty much

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Speaker 3: going to be accurate. And when you go rogue off

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Speaker 3: the script, that's when you're going to get hurt sometime,

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Speaker 3: and not to be in the dugout because I knew

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Speaker 3: the script that would be difficult to deal with. We

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Speaker 3: had with the Cubs Mike Borzella. We've talked about Borzy's

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Speaker 3: been on our show. I always talked about another team

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Speaker 3: got borzelloed after the game because Warsy had this wonderful

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Speaker 3: method that he incorporated was his own form of analytics

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Speaker 3: to break down the opposition, and he did it very well,

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Speaker 3: very methodically, and very accurately, and I know he's still

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Speaker 3: doing it. So what I'm getting to is that catchers

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Speaker 3: for the Cubs back then would able to just be

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Speaker 3: able to peek in and if they needed something off

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Speaker 3: the cheat sheet from Boresy, it was there. They had

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Speaker 3: a little sign to tell him, you know, okay, it's

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Speaker 3: a tough moment, give me some help right here. What

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Speaker 3: he got and whom would come on in the game,

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Speaker 3: And of course this doesn't happen every pitch. Because the

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Speaker 3: catchers pretty they did stay on script, but if they

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Speaker 3: were just hung up at all, look at Borzy. So

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Speaker 3: I don't even know if these guys are doing that

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Speaker 3: at all. I I haven't watched closely enough to see

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Speaker 3: if there's a little peak in or not. But I

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Speaker 3: see nothing wrong with that. So again the way analytics

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Speaker 3: works and how accurate it is regarding this, and that's

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Speaker 3: why more breaking balls have been thrown. Part of it

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Speaker 3: is because these pitchers we're talking about have great command

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Speaker 3: of the breaking ball Snell's change up. They just are

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Speaker 3: able to throw for a strike when they want to,

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Speaker 3: or have it start as a strike and become a ball.

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Speaker 3: And that's the true ability of these guys. So that's

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Speaker 3: a part in the game where analytics shines. So you

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Speaker 3: have to have a catch with great retention, and I

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Speaker 3: think you have to have somebody on the bench I

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Speaker 3: believe that is really qualified that can give him that

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Speaker 3: little cheat sheet answer when it's necessary.

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Speaker 2: Here's a couple of quick stories for you on cal Raley. Listen.

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Speaker 2: If I had a vote this year of going back

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Speaker 2: in September, I was about for the MVP of the ALE,

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Speaker 2: I would go with Aaron judge because his offensive numbers,

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Speaker 2: there's a big gap between him and col But Joe.

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Speaker 2: The more I watched cal Raley play baseball and how

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Speaker 2: well he plays, he is the ultimate coach's son, and

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Speaker 2: what he means to this team, I'm starting to think

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Speaker 2: he's the MVP. I mean it is amazing to watch him.

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Speaker 2: I mean, really watch him the things that don't show

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Speaker 2: up in the numbers. A couple of stories. Game one,

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Speaker 2: you got Bryce Miller out there is on short rest.

359
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Speaker 2: First pitch he throws George Springer, hits out for a

360
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Speaker 2: home run, walks the next guy, gets it out, walks

361
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Speaker 2: the next guy. The building is on fire in Toronto,

362
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Speaker 2: which has the best home record in the American League.

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Speaker 2: The game is about to get away in the first inning.

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Speaker 2: Cal calls time out and he walks out to the

365
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Speaker 2: mound as slow as you've ever seen anybody walk on

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Speaker 2: the boardwalk of Atlantic City. I mean, he completely just

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Speaker 2: stopped the game, didn't say a whole lot on the mound,

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Speaker 2: but took his time, whited so long the umpire had

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Speaker 2: to come out there and break it up. Six pitches later,

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Speaker 2: they're back in the dugout. I talked to Pete Woodworth,

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Speaker 2: who is the pitching coach for the Seattle Mariners, because

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Speaker 2: I've seen a lot of Mariners games this year and

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Speaker 2: I've seen Cal do this countless times where he just

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Speaker 2: controls the game and every time he goes out to

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Speaker 2: the mount, I mean every time the pitching coach does

376
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Speaker 2: not follow him. And Joe, you've seen enough baseball. You

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Speaker 2: know now that mound visits are capped. You only have

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Speaker 2: five per game. That a lot of pitching coaches when

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Speaker 2: they see the catcher go out to the mound, they

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Speaker 2: want to be part of the meeting. They figured that's

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Speaker 2: their opportunity to say something to their guy out there,

382
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Speaker 2: because you can only have a certain number of visits

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Speaker 2: and I'm not going to let one pass without having

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Speaker 2: my say. So Pete Woodworth almost never, and probably the

385
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Speaker 2: answer is never goes out there. And I asked him

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Speaker 2: about that and he said there's a reason for that.

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Speaker 2: I said, well, it is it. He said, this is

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Speaker 2: Cal's team, it's his team. He said, I have never

389
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Speaker 2: questioned Cal Rawley. In fact, later that game, they brought

390
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Speaker 2: in Andrea's Munoz the closer, and Black Guerrero was leading

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Speaker 2: off the inning, so thinking about the next thing, and

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Speaker 2: cal went up to Woodworth and he had some ideas

393
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Speaker 2: about how to pitch to Guerrero, who's a terrific fastball hitter,

394
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Speaker 2: and they wanted to attack him with fastballs up too.

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Speaker 2: He started to say that to Woodworth and the pitching

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Speaker 2: coach stopped him and he said, Cal, do what you

397
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Speaker 2: think think is right. I'm never going to question you.

398
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Speaker 2: And that's what the pitching coach told me. He said,

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Speaker 2: I will never question cal Rally because he's never made

400
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Speaker 2: a bad decision. Maybe it doesn't work out, but he's

401
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Speaker 2: always put the work in, always put the thought in

402
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Speaker 2: on what the call is, and I trust him. I

403
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Speaker 2: mean that smoke volumes to me, Joe that in this game,

404
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Speaker 2: everybody wants to get nursed through the game. They put

405
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Speaker 2: this game in the hands of cal Rawley and let

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Speaker 2: him ride. And if you see one of the Mariners'

407
00:19:30,158 --> 00:19:32,558
Speaker 2: pitchers shake off cal Rawly in the course of a

408
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Speaker 2: game during this series, I'll give you a nickel each

409
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Speaker 2: time it happens, and you won't be able to buy

410
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Speaker 2: a cup of coffee.

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Speaker 3: That's pretty powerful stuff. And then on top of that,

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Speaker 3: his manager was a pretty good catcher, Danny Wilson, I

413
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Speaker 3: saw him play for Minnesota versus University of Arizona and Tucson.

414
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Speaker 3: I don't even know what year that was. As a scout,

415
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Speaker 3: I watched him in the dugout. Also, having been a

416
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Speaker 3: former catcher, he understands what that position is all about,

417
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Speaker 3: and then he obviously knows the kind of work that

418
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Speaker 3: Rawley puts into it and relationship he has with his pitcher.

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Speaker 3: So that's kind of a kind of an interesting and

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00:20:09,158 --> 00:20:11,838
Speaker 3: positive dynamic they have going between the pitching coach, the

421
00:20:12,238 --> 00:20:17,198
Speaker 3: manager and their potentially MVP catcher. You can't say that

422
00:20:17,318 --> 00:20:19,638
Speaker 3: very often whether you have that kind of synergy. Again,

423
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Speaker 3: this natural connection among these three men here is so

424
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Speaker 3: important because trust, there's the key word to any successful organization.

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Speaker 3: When you trust one another, when you get to have

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Speaker 3: open conversations in front of one another, when you don't

427
00:20:33,758 --> 00:20:36,118
Speaker 3: look at the door all the time, when that person

428
00:20:36,118 --> 00:20:38,198
Speaker 3: somebody else is in the room, just because you may be,

429
00:20:38,358 --> 00:20:40,838
Speaker 3: you know, talking about that guy a little bit. These

430
00:20:40,878 --> 00:20:43,678
Speaker 3: are the things that I really work against when I'm

431
00:20:43,718 --> 00:20:46,598
Speaker 3: in charge of being a manager. So I love all that.

432
00:20:46,718 --> 00:20:48,718
Speaker 3: It makes me want them to be even more successful

433
00:20:49,238 --> 00:20:52,038
Speaker 3: because that's the way it should be. There's an empowerment

434
00:20:52,078 --> 00:20:54,918
Speaker 3: going on right there. There's no control being held over

435
00:20:54,998 --> 00:20:55,678
Speaker 3: anybody else.

436
00:20:55,798 --> 00:20:57,998
Speaker 2: Well, let's get back to our diner menu and the

437
00:20:58,078 --> 00:21:01,998
Speaker 2: pitching carousel. Something's happened in the ALCS. I can't wait

438
00:21:02,078 --> 00:21:05,598
Speaker 2: to talk to Joe about managers decisions. We'll talk about

439
00:21:05,638 --> 00:21:22,318
Speaker 2: that right after this on the Book of Joe. Welcome

440
00:21:22,318 --> 00:21:24,198
Speaker 2: back to the Book of Joe. I've been on the

441
00:21:24,198 --> 00:21:27,318
Speaker 2: Mariners during this run, Joe, and one thing stands out

442
00:21:27,318 --> 00:21:29,758
Speaker 2: to me. Managers who are in a hurry to go

443
00:21:29,798 --> 00:21:33,238
Speaker 2: to their bullpen are going to lose. Because Dan Wilson,

444
00:21:33,278 --> 00:21:36,198
Speaker 2: you mentioned, the Mariners manager, He's going to outstuff you

445
00:21:36,278 --> 00:21:39,878
Speaker 2: with his arms. He has more elite options and more

446
00:21:39,958 --> 00:21:43,798
Speaker 2: platoon neutral relief options than you do. So by going

447
00:21:43,838 --> 00:21:47,038
Speaker 2: to your bullpen early and getting your best picture, your

448
00:21:47,078 --> 00:21:49,358
Speaker 2: starting pitcher out of the game, you are going to

449
00:21:49,438 --> 00:21:52,038
Speaker 2: lose that against Seattle. And I've seen that time and

450
00:21:52,078 --> 00:21:55,238
Speaker 2: time again, whether it was Trek Scoobll coming out after

451
00:21:55,358 --> 00:21:58,118
Speaker 2: ninety two or ninety seven pitches. He did it twice

452
00:21:58,158 --> 00:22:00,558
Speaker 2: in that series. And that's not a knock on aj

453
00:22:00,718 --> 00:22:04,438
Speaker 2: Hinch because that's just who Trek Scooble is. This guy's

454
00:22:04,438 --> 00:22:06,438
Speaker 2: never thrown more than one hundred and eight pitches. He

455
00:22:06,798 --> 00:22:10,278
Speaker 2: just is a high effort, high energy guy who when

456
00:22:10,278 --> 00:22:13,358
Speaker 2: he's done, he's done, and a couple of times both

457
00:22:13,398 --> 00:22:16,078
Speaker 2: times actually Seattle took advantage of that. Now we're in

458
00:22:16,118 --> 00:22:19,718
Speaker 2: a series with Toronto where John Schneider, the Blue Jays manager,

459
00:22:19,918 --> 00:22:22,238
Speaker 2: has done the same thing. He's taken out his best

460
00:22:22,238 --> 00:22:25,518
Speaker 2: pitcher in my book, early, because you're not going to

461
00:22:25,598 --> 00:22:28,078
Speaker 2: win the back half against Seattle. In this case, it

462
00:22:28,118 --> 00:22:31,398
Speaker 2: was Kevin Gosman, it was Trey Y Savage. Let's talk

463
00:22:31,398 --> 00:22:33,798
Speaker 2: about the first decision, Joe in the game number one,

464
00:22:33,878 --> 00:22:36,758
Speaker 2: because the way the series is playing out, that's still

465
00:22:36,798 --> 00:22:40,638
Speaker 2: looming extremely large. Gosman obviously is the race. He's on

466
00:22:40,758 --> 00:22:46,598
Speaker 2: full rest. He had retired sixteen consecutive batters in Game one,

467
00:22:47,078 --> 00:22:49,358
Speaker 2: and cal Rawley digs out a splitter and hits it

468
00:22:49,358 --> 00:22:52,158
Speaker 2: out of the ballpark. He had thrown I think nine

469
00:22:52,198 --> 00:22:54,878
Speaker 2: out of ten pitches were splits in his previous two

470
00:22:54,918 --> 00:22:57,678
Speaker 2: at bets. He's struck out Raley the previous bet. Cal

471
00:22:57,758 --> 00:23:00,318
Speaker 2: Rawly hits a home run off a splitter. It's gonna happen, right,

472
00:23:00,758 --> 00:23:03,278
Speaker 2: The dude's got sixty two. I couldn't call it really

473
00:23:03,318 --> 00:23:05,998
Speaker 2: a mistake. You know, it wasn't as far down as

474
00:23:05,998 --> 00:23:09,318
Speaker 2: he wanted. But all right, solo home run, that's still

475
00:23:09,318 --> 00:23:12,558
Speaker 2: your race on the mound. Then he walks Julio Rodriguez

476
00:23:12,918 --> 00:23:15,558
Speaker 2: and he's out of the game. Now keep this in mind, Joe,

477
00:23:15,638 --> 00:23:17,958
Speaker 2: He's taken out of the game because at some point

478
00:23:18,038 --> 00:23:20,998
Speaker 2: early on, John Schneider had his bullpen up. I mean,

479
00:23:21,198 --> 00:23:22,998
Speaker 2: to go to your bullpen that quickly, you had to

480
00:23:22,998 --> 00:23:26,798
Speaker 2: have somebody ready. He's anticipating trouble. And here we are again,

481
00:23:27,198 --> 00:23:31,518
Speaker 2: third time around. And that's what really to me, really

482
00:23:31,558 --> 00:23:34,638
Speaker 2: informed this decision. I've got to stick with Gosman. He's

483
00:23:34,678 --> 00:23:37,598
Speaker 2: at seventy six pitches. It's the middle of the lineup.

484
00:23:38,078 --> 00:23:40,158
Speaker 2: So what does he do. He brings in little his

485
00:23:40,278 --> 00:23:44,678
Speaker 2: left handed specialists, right, and Polanco turns around. I don't

486
00:23:44,718 --> 00:23:46,718
Speaker 2: know how you feel about Polanco, Joe, but right now

487
00:23:46,758 --> 00:23:51,158
Speaker 2: he's dangerous both sides of the plate. MVP, there's a

488
00:23:51,198 --> 00:23:54,478
Speaker 2: wild pitch, and now there's a runner on second base,

489
00:23:55,078 --> 00:23:59,518
Speaker 2: and first base is open, and your MVP, Polongo is

490
00:23:59,518 --> 00:24:02,318
Speaker 2: in the box. They pitched to him. He gets a

491
00:24:02,318 --> 00:24:06,358
Speaker 2: base hit RBI. I asked Snyder why not walk him there,

492
00:24:06,678 --> 00:24:09,198
Speaker 2: and he talked about, well, you know, in this situation,

493
00:24:09,278 --> 00:24:11,638
Speaker 2: you trust the picture and the catcher to navigate. It's

494
00:24:11,678 --> 00:24:14,638
Speaker 2: a pitch a round situation where you either get swing

495
00:24:14,638 --> 00:24:17,438
Speaker 2: a miss on the breaking ball or it's ball four. No,

496
00:24:17,958 --> 00:24:20,118
Speaker 2: that's where cal Rawlely goes out to the mound. That's

497
00:24:20,118 --> 00:24:22,158
Speaker 2: where you don't leave it up to the players to

498
00:24:22,238 --> 00:24:24,918
Speaker 2: assume they're going to do the right thing. I'm sorry

499
00:24:24,958 --> 00:24:27,678
Speaker 2: that the way that inning unfolded, it was a mistake

500
00:24:27,838 --> 00:24:30,878
Speaker 2: upon mistake. I don't know how you saw it, if

501
00:24:30,878 --> 00:24:33,078
Speaker 2: you saw it playing out, Joe, but man, that just

502
00:24:33,158 --> 00:24:37,398
Speaker 2: worked completely in the favor of Seattle. You took out

503
00:24:37,438 --> 00:24:40,678
Speaker 2: your best starting pitcher, which they really enjoyed. You pitched

504
00:24:40,678 --> 00:24:42,478
Speaker 2: the Blanco with a base open with a lefty.

505
00:24:42,958 --> 00:24:46,118
Speaker 3: Yeah. Personal with Gosman. When I saw they were doing that,

506
00:24:46,158 --> 00:24:48,278
Speaker 3: I looked immediately, I want to know how many pitches

507
00:24:48,358 --> 00:24:50,438
Speaker 3: is this guy thrown? Because I'm with you, man, I'm

508
00:24:50,478 --> 00:24:53,798
Speaker 3: a big fan of Gosman, and he is their guy.

509
00:24:53,838 --> 00:24:56,638
Speaker 3: He was on full rest all the above and beyond

510
00:24:56,678 --> 00:24:59,998
Speaker 3: all of that. It's not an elimination game. I mean,

511
00:25:00,038 --> 00:25:01,958
Speaker 3: if it was like the last game of a series,

512
00:25:01,958 --> 00:25:04,998
Speaker 3: we're going home. I maybe a little bit more sympathetic

513
00:25:05,078 --> 00:25:07,438
Speaker 3: to the whole thing, but it wasn't. And again, Gosman,

514
00:25:07,598 --> 00:25:09,638
Speaker 3: is that good and like you said, he retired so

515
00:25:09,678 --> 00:25:12,638
Speaker 3: many in a row. Pretty good hitter hits a split

516
00:25:12,718 --> 00:25:14,998
Speaker 3: down out and then here comes the walk. You might

517
00:25:14,998 --> 00:25:16,478
Speaker 3: have just been a little bit annoyed by that, and

518
00:25:16,478 --> 00:25:18,638
Speaker 3: then he's probably ready to settle back down. So I

519
00:25:18,998 --> 00:25:24,518
Speaker 3: was absolutely surprised by that. Pitching around that's man, Today's

520
00:25:24,598 --> 00:25:27,398
Speaker 3: game pitching around is that's kind of a lost art.

521
00:25:27,438 --> 00:25:29,078
Speaker 3: I don't really trust guys to do that.

522
00:25:29,718 --> 00:25:31,878
Speaker 2: You let me, Joe, let me, let me put you

523
00:25:31,918 --> 00:25:34,318
Speaker 2: in the doug out then, because you've got Nailor Josh

524
00:25:34,398 --> 00:25:36,318
Speaker 2: Naylor is a left handed hitter on deck. You've got

525
00:25:36,318 --> 00:25:38,998
Speaker 2: your left handed specialist in the game. Would you just

526
00:25:38,998 --> 00:25:40,038
Speaker 2: put him on intentionally?

527
00:25:40,758 --> 00:25:44,318
Speaker 3: I'm thinking about it as you're talking about it deck. Okay,

528
00:25:44,358 --> 00:25:49,038
Speaker 3: two outs, yes, yeah, two ounces is fine? Yes, I did, Yes,

529
00:25:49,198 --> 00:25:51,038
Speaker 3: more than likely I would have. Here's the point with that.

530
00:25:51,398 --> 00:25:53,878
Speaker 3: Believe it or not, the game starts going fast. Okay,

531
00:25:53,878 --> 00:25:56,838
Speaker 3: it does. It just does. I would bet that did

532
00:25:56,918 --> 00:26:00,438
Speaker 3: not did not even enter John Schneider's mind at that point.

533
00:26:00,478 --> 00:26:01,998
Speaker 3: I'm betting because of.

534
00:26:01,958 --> 00:26:04,158
Speaker 2: The wild pitch, you know, as you mentioned, and it

535
00:26:04,278 --> 00:26:05,158
Speaker 2: changed the whole DYNA.

536
00:26:05,638 --> 00:26:07,438
Speaker 3: So that's why you have to be ahead of all

537
00:26:07,478 --> 00:26:10,478
Speaker 3: of this constantly. Nobody spoke up and said, hey, what

538
00:26:10,478 --> 00:26:12,398
Speaker 3: do you think about walking him right here? Which is

539
00:26:12,438 --> 00:26:16,558
Speaker 3: really also an important you would you want a bench coach.

540
00:26:16,878 --> 00:26:19,278
Speaker 3: I don't want everybody talking to me, but if the

541
00:26:19,518 --> 00:26:22,038
Speaker 3: one guy that does talk to me, I'm good if

542
00:26:22,038 --> 00:26:24,078
Speaker 3: he says something like that to me, because you do

543
00:26:24,758 --> 00:26:27,678
Speaker 3: get lost in maybe relief pitching and what just had happened,

544
00:26:27,678 --> 00:26:29,958
Speaker 3: and you want to stay ahead, but sometimes you don't.

545
00:26:30,038 --> 00:26:32,558
Speaker 3: I'm betting that got lost in the shuffle a little bit.

546
00:26:32,598 --> 00:26:35,118
Speaker 3: That's my opinion. And so to say you're going to

547
00:26:35,198 --> 00:26:37,558
Speaker 3: pitch around, I'm not into it. I would just if

548
00:26:37,598 --> 00:26:39,838
Speaker 3: you're gonna picture on if that's your thought, I'm walking

549
00:26:39,838 --> 00:26:43,318
Speaker 3: a guy. That's a clear indicator to just walk him.

550
00:26:43,678 --> 00:26:45,438
Speaker 3: Just told up the four fingers put him on base.

551
00:26:45,678 --> 00:26:47,558
Speaker 3: If you had said something like I really thought he

552
00:26:47,558 --> 00:26:50,318
Speaker 3: could have got this guy. I liked the left hander

553
00:26:50,358 --> 00:26:54,078
Speaker 3: stuff against Polonko. We've talked about this in pregame meetings.

554
00:26:54,238 --> 00:26:56,998
Speaker 3: I really like this matchup a lot different world. But

555
00:26:57,118 --> 00:27:00,038
Speaker 3: to talk about pitching around. I'm not into that. I've

556
00:27:00,038 --> 00:27:04,318
Speaker 3: had too many times where pretty good pictures today's game

557
00:27:04,638 --> 00:27:08,438
Speaker 3: where if you can't command your fastball, I don't like

558
00:27:08,518 --> 00:27:10,838
Speaker 3: the idea of pitching around. So if the guy is

559
00:27:10,838 --> 00:27:13,318
Speaker 3: truly a command kind of dude, he knows how to

560
00:27:13,318 --> 00:27:14,958
Speaker 3: you know, put the ball down, put the ball in

561
00:27:14,998 --> 00:27:18,958
Speaker 3: the dirt, get the chase different. But under the circumstances,

562
00:27:18,958 --> 00:27:21,398
Speaker 3: what I just heard, what you just said, is that

563
00:27:21,438 --> 00:27:25,038
Speaker 3: the pitching around, No, that wasn't that. That's not really

564
00:27:25,078 --> 00:27:26,998
Speaker 3: what was going on. I think it got a little

565
00:27:26,998 --> 00:27:29,078
Speaker 3: bit too quick. And if you wanted to pitch around,

566
00:27:29,358 --> 00:27:30,278
Speaker 3: just go ahead and walk them.

567
00:27:30,358 --> 00:27:33,118
Speaker 2: Yeah, good stuff there, and let's go now the game too,

568
00:27:33,198 --> 00:27:36,838
Speaker 2: because there became a similar crisis point for John Schneider.

569
00:27:36,878 --> 00:27:38,798
Speaker 2: He's got his kid out there on the mound. He's

570
00:27:38,838 --> 00:27:43,398
Speaker 2: been mister wonderful, Tredy Savage, unhittable, split the high release point,

571
00:27:43,518 --> 00:27:46,758
Speaker 2: you know, the whole drill. But wasn't quite the same

572
00:27:47,158 --> 00:27:48,678
Speaker 2: in Game two as we've seen him in a past,

573
00:27:48,678 --> 00:27:50,878
Speaker 2: certainly not against the Yankees where he allowed no hits.

574
00:27:51,758 --> 00:27:53,518
Speaker 2: So we get to the fifth inning and the game

575
00:27:53,598 --> 00:27:56,558
Speaker 2: is tied after a three run homer, he gave up

576
00:27:56,598 --> 00:27:58,958
Speaker 2: early that the Jays get back in the game. It's

577
00:27:58,998 --> 00:28:02,198
Speaker 2: three to three in the fifth and the inning starts

578
00:28:02,558 --> 00:28:06,318
Speaker 2: with Randy Rosa hitting a ground ball infield. Hit Jimenez

579
00:28:06,398 --> 00:28:08,438
Speaker 2: tries to make a play. He probably shouldn't make, throws

580
00:28:08,478 --> 00:28:11,718
Speaker 2: it away. He's on second base. Now at that point,

581
00:28:11,798 --> 00:28:15,358
Speaker 2: Schneider challenged that maybe the ball should have not advanced

582
00:28:15,398 --> 00:28:18,038
Speaker 2: the runner because it hit Gino Suarez, who's hit sitting

583
00:28:18,038 --> 00:28:20,118
Speaker 2: on the top step of the dugout. But he was

584
00:28:20,158 --> 00:28:22,238
Speaker 2: out of play. So the runner goes to second. Now

585
00:28:22,278 --> 00:28:24,598
Speaker 2: he's got a base open and cal Raley is in

586
00:28:24,638 --> 00:28:29,158
Speaker 2: the box. Okay, here's the situation, Joe. Fifth inning, there

587
00:28:29,278 --> 00:28:33,318
Speaker 2: is nobody out, the game is tight. It's the fifth inning.

588
00:28:34,318 --> 00:28:37,238
Speaker 2: He walks cal Raley. Now this is the guy I

589
00:28:37,278 --> 00:28:41,278
Speaker 2: gotta defend. Schneider here, he's just watched Raleigh absolutely just

590
00:28:41,558 --> 00:28:44,278
Speaker 2: hammer his team. I mean, he's got like eight home

591
00:28:44,358 --> 00:28:47,198
Speaker 2: runs in fourteen games in that ballpark in his career,

592
00:28:47,198 --> 00:28:49,918
Speaker 2: He's got the highest lugging percentage in the history of

593
00:28:50,038 --> 00:28:54,078
Speaker 2: Rogers Center. He has seen way too much at cal Raley.

594
00:28:54,198 --> 00:28:57,558
Speaker 2: He puts him on base with an intentional walk. It's

595
00:28:57,638 --> 00:29:00,998
Speaker 2: only the fourth time in postseason history. Somebody who was

596
00:29:01,038 --> 00:29:06,038
Speaker 2: intentionally walked with no outs early is the fifth inning? Crazy, right,

597
00:29:06,398 --> 00:29:10,478
Speaker 2: You're giving them another run, another runner with nobody out,

598
00:29:10,598 --> 00:29:13,318
Speaker 2: and then he makes a pitching change and he takes

599
00:29:13,358 --> 00:29:16,278
Speaker 2: out you Savage, And later on he would say that

600
00:29:16,318 --> 00:29:18,358
Speaker 2: he thought his velocity was dipping a little bit, just

601
00:29:18,478 --> 00:29:21,398
Speaker 2: wasn't the same pitcher. So he brings in Louis Varland.

602
00:29:21,958 --> 00:29:24,758
Speaker 2: He gets Julio Rodriguez, who can't catch up to his heater,

603
00:29:25,038 --> 00:29:29,038
Speaker 2: and then there's mister MVP again, Polanco, who takes some yard,

604
00:29:29,038 --> 00:29:31,878
Speaker 2: three run homer ballgame. I wasn't a fan of the

605
00:29:31,918 --> 00:29:33,758
Speaker 2: walk to cal Raley. I gotta be honest with you, Joe.

606
00:29:33,958 --> 00:29:35,558
Speaker 2: I don't want to give the other team to run

607
00:29:35,598 --> 00:29:38,678
Speaker 2: it with nobody out. Basically, what you're saying is, I

608
00:29:38,678 --> 00:29:40,838
Speaker 2: don't trust my guys anymore to keep cal Rally in

609
00:29:40,838 --> 00:29:43,478
Speaker 2: the ballpark. You're not setting up a double play. Varlin's

610
00:29:43,478 --> 00:29:45,718
Speaker 2: not that kind of a picture. Nobody out. Man That

611
00:29:45,878 --> 00:29:48,198
Speaker 2: is risky, and it blew up on him. And I

612
00:29:48,198 --> 00:29:51,398
Speaker 2: give credit to Seattle because what Polanco is doing is

613
00:29:51,438 --> 00:29:54,878
Speaker 2: just amazing. You know, he's hitting behind cal Raley and

614
00:29:54,958 --> 00:29:57,838
Speaker 2: Julio Rodriguez, who are two franchise players. And here's a

615
00:29:57,838 --> 00:30:00,038
Speaker 2: guy who was on the free agent market last year

616
00:30:00,038 --> 00:30:02,598
Speaker 2: and settled for a one year, seven point seven five

617
00:30:02,638 --> 00:30:05,998
Speaker 2: million dollar deal. He's become Babe Ruth this October. So

618
00:30:06,198 --> 00:30:08,958
Speaker 2: start with that. Given the hit or credit, but walk

619
00:30:09,038 --> 00:30:10,798
Speaker 2: me through the thinking there, Joe. If you're in the

620
00:30:10,878 --> 00:30:12,958
Speaker 2: dugout there and you've got cal rally up there with

621
00:30:13,078 --> 00:30:15,398
Speaker 2: nobody out in a tie game and the fifth inning

622
00:30:15,478 --> 00:30:16,638
Speaker 2: in first base open.

623
00:30:16,918 --> 00:30:19,038
Speaker 3: Yeah, what was run around second base? Also is that

624
00:30:19,078 --> 00:30:21,998
Speaker 3: we're saying on the second base Yeah? Yeah, well, gosh,

625
00:30:22,118 --> 00:30:23,318
Speaker 3: this is something that.

626
00:30:23,758 --> 00:30:25,638
Speaker 2: I mean, it's trouble either way, I get it right.

627
00:30:25,718 --> 00:30:28,838
Speaker 3: No, Yeah, this would be this possibly would be the

628
00:30:28,878 --> 00:30:31,358
Speaker 3: example of if you had somebody out there that you

629
00:30:31,478 --> 00:30:34,238
Speaker 3: did like command wise, this is the time to try

630
00:30:34,278 --> 00:30:35,958
Speaker 3: to get him the chase out of the zone. If

631
00:30:35,958 --> 00:30:39,118
Speaker 3: in fact, and you savage with that whatever that is,

632
00:30:40,038 --> 00:30:42,398
Speaker 3: split fork, whatever, that would be the pitch to do

633
00:30:42,438 --> 00:30:45,718
Speaker 3: it with. I believe. On the other hand, the guy's

634
00:30:45,718 --> 00:30:47,958
Speaker 3: been burnt. He's burned him so bad. And this is

635
00:30:47,998 --> 00:30:51,798
Speaker 3: probably a conversation that occurred before the game. You know, again,

636
00:30:51,918 --> 00:30:53,878
Speaker 3: don't let Brolly beat us. Well, here it is it's

637
00:30:53,878 --> 00:30:56,158
Speaker 3: like staring us in the face. And then there's also

638
00:30:56,198 --> 00:31:00,438
Speaker 3: the potential for the double play following Old Rodriguez runs well,

639
00:31:00,798 --> 00:31:02,798
Speaker 3: but it's nevertheless, if I put first and second, I

640
00:31:02,838 --> 00:31:05,398
Speaker 3: might get two outs with one. All these thoughts are

641
00:31:05,398 --> 00:31:07,358
Speaker 3: going through your head. I know the guy that came.

642
00:31:07,238 --> 00:31:11,118
Speaker 2: In Verlin, You say, yeah, Louis Varland came in Arland Varl.

643
00:31:11,198 --> 00:31:12,878
Speaker 3: He got good arm. Man, that kid's got a good

644
00:31:12,918 --> 00:31:15,238
Speaker 3: arm and he got the punchy, so that all it

645
00:31:15,318 --> 00:31:17,678
Speaker 3: started looking good at that point. Let me just go

646
00:31:17,758 --> 00:31:20,878
Speaker 3: back to your savage. The first inning really put pretty

647
00:31:20,918 --> 00:31:23,478
Speaker 3: much put that guy behind the eight ball because and

648
00:31:23,518 --> 00:31:25,798
Speaker 3: I said, I was text you when it happened. That's

649
00:31:25,838 --> 00:31:28,758
Speaker 3: a perfect example for the automatic ball strike system right there,

650
00:31:28,838 --> 00:31:32,358
Speaker 3: automated because he struck that kid out. And I really believe,

651
00:31:32,718 --> 00:31:34,358
Speaker 3: I know, you got to make a better pitch coming

652
00:31:34,478 --> 00:31:37,678
Speaker 3: up and this and that whatever, whatever, But I really

653
00:31:37,838 --> 00:31:39,598
Speaker 3: the bottom of heart believe if that pitch had been

654
00:31:39,598 --> 00:31:41,198
Speaker 3: called accurately, here's a lot.

655
00:31:41,078 --> 00:31:42,398
Speaker 2: Of two strike pitch too.

656
00:31:44,318 --> 00:31:44,478
Speaker 4: Yeah.

657
00:31:44,718 --> 00:31:48,558
Speaker 2: Yeah, was walking back to the dugout.

658
00:31:48,238 --> 00:31:51,118
Speaker 3: Exactly that that set everything up. He eventually gets on

659
00:31:51,198 --> 00:31:53,558
Speaker 3: base and all of a sudden, hell breaks loose. Home

660
00:31:53,598 --> 00:31:56,398
Speaker 3: run happens. But that I mean, see, I look at

661
00:31:56,478 --> 00:31:58,758
Speaker 3: things like that, games could be won or lost. I

662
00:31:58,838 --> 00:32:01,358
Speaker 3: swear with the first hitter in the first inning, I've

663
00:32:01,398 --> 00:32:04,438
Speaker 3: seen it happen, and I make not of it during

664
00:32:04,438 --> 00:32:08,638
Speaker 3: a game, and it's it's not impossible. It's not impossible.

665
00:32:08,998 --> 00:32:10,958
Speaker 3: You'd argue with me all you want, whoever wants to argue,

666
00:32:11,038 --> 00:32:12,958
Speaker 3: but I've seen it, and you just saw it happen

667
00:32:13,038 --> 00:32:15,438
Speaker 3: right there. That game was lost in the first inning

668
00:32:15,478 --> 00:32:17,198
Speaker 3: on that pitch. That's what I saw.

669
00:32:17,558 --> 00:32:20,118
Speaker 2: So hey, let me stop you there again. Back to

670
00:32:20,158 --> 00:32:23,078
Speaker 2: your point. I texted you back that yes, I agree

671
00:32:23,078 --> 00:32:25,878
Speaker 2: with you that strike strike three, you got one out.

672
00:32:26,118 --> 00:32:30,558
Speaker 2: Place is still joyful, right, But Doug ednings. You know

673
00:32:30,598 --> 00:32:32,678
Speaker 2: he missed the call. There's no question about it. That

674
00:32:32,798 --> 00:32:35,598
Speaker 2: was a slider from you, Savage. And he has such

675
00:32:35,718 --> 00:32:38,198
Speaker 2: crazy movement on his pitches, his slider, And this is

676
00:32:38,198 --> 00:32:40,318
Speaker 2: what I was told after the Mariners had their pitters

677
00:32:40,358 --> 00:32:43,038
Speaker 2: meeting before the game. Treat his slider like a left

678
00:32:43,038 --> 00:32:47,358
Speaker 2: hander's curveball. That's the way it breaks. It has screwball

679
00:32:47,438 --> 00:32:49,758
Speaker 2: action to it. And John Schnader told me a really

680
00:32:49,798 --> 00:32:53,038
Speaker 2: interesting story that in one of you Savage's starts. The

681
00:32:53,038 --> 00:32:55,198
Speaker 2: backup catcher goes out to warm up the pitcher as

682
00:32:55,238 --> 00:32:58,038
Speaker 2: Kirk is getting the gear on Tyler Heyneman, and Heineman

683
00:32:58,118 --> 00:33:01,318
Speaker 2: says to the manager, make sure you stay on his

684
00:33:01,438 --> 00:33:06,478
Speaker 2: slider because it's got so outlier of movement that's sometimes

685
00:33:06,478 --> 00:33:08,758
Speaker 2: an umpire, not just a hitter, will give up on

686
00:33:08,798 --> 00:33:11,958
Speaker 2: that pitch. And that pitch came back into the strike someone,

687
00:33:11,958 --> 00:33:14,318
Speaker 2: which you're not expecting with a breaking ball like that.

688
00:33:14,878 --> 00:33:17,918
Speaker 2: So yeah, I'm with you. That definitely to me, even

689
00:33:17,958 --> 00:33:20,318
Speaker 2: though it was the first batter of the game, that

690
00:33:20,358 --> 00:33:22,318
Speaker 2: could have been a challenge next year in the abs.

691
00:33:22,358 --> 00:33:24,998
Speaker 2: I know you only have two, but that's a very

692
00:33:24,998 --> 00:33:27,038
Speaker 2: interesting point you made, Joe about whether that would be

693
00:33:27,038 --> 00:33:28,958
Speaker 2: a challenge or not next year or not, because maybe

694
00:33:28,958 --> 00:33:30,718
Speaker 2: it did change that inning, So go ahead.

695
00:33:30,958 --> 00:33:33,518
Speaker 3: I think it did because then the kid like you, Savage,

696
00:33:33,278 --> 00:33:36,038
Speaker 3: he gets a punchy right there. He's a different dude

697
00:33:36,078 --> 00:33:38,238
Speaker 3: in the rest of that first inning, but he gets

698
00:33:38,238 --> 00:33:41,918
Speaker 3: a walk, and I have to believe after that pitch

699
00:33:42,078 --> 00:33:44,518
Speaker 3: was called a ball. It wasn't a borderline strike, it

700
00:33:44,558 --> 00:33:46,918
Speaker 3: was an obvious strike. It may have done something to

701
00:33:46,998 --> 00:33:49,838
Speaker 3: him psychologically. I'm just saying he's a tough kid. He's

702
00:33:49,838 --> 00:33:53,598
Speaker 3: from Potsdown, Pennsylvania, He's got to be tough. But I

703
00:33:54,038 --> 00:33:56,518
Speaker 3: just saw something there, and I'm the only point I'm

704
00:33:56,518 --> 00:33:59,438
Speaker 3: making is if you're ambivalent about the ABS system, there's

705
00:33:59,478 --> 00:34:02,318
Speaker 3: a perfect example of how it could work and benefit

706
00:34:02,478 --> 00:34:07,158
Speaker 3: quickly expedition and move the game on and possibly really

707
00:34:07,358 --> 00:34:09,958
Speaker 3: turn of events a different team cost we could have

708
00:34:09,998 --> 00:34:11,878
Speaker 3: won that night. And I know this first thing. I

709
00:34:11,878 --> 00:34:14,438
Speaker 3: know it's one call, but I'm just telling you, been there,

710
00:34:14,598 --> 00:34:17,598
Speaker 3: done that before. So that and then a lot of

711
00:34:17,638 --> 00:34:21,198
Speaker 3: these pitching changes. Gosman and your Savage almost seem predetermined

712
00:34:21,238 --> 00:34:23,358
Speaker 3: to me. It sounds like they have a very strong

713
00:34:23,558 --> 00:34:26,798
Speaker 3: pregame pre series meetings with strong opinions on how to

714
00:34:26,838 --> 00:34:29,998
Speaker 3: do this. That's what I'm seeing. You know, the bullpen wars. God,

715
00:34:30,078 --> 00:34:32,638
Speaker 3: it's so hard to win that when you don't get

716
00:34:32,678 --> 00:34:34,478
Speaker 3: depth out of your starting pitching. And they have two

717
00:34:34,558 --> 00:34:38,038
Speaker 3: guys there that I would believe going into it that

718
00:34:38,038 --> 00:34:40,118
Speaker 3: I would expect some depth out of both of those guys,

719
00:34:40,158 --> 00:34:43,958
Speaker 3: Gosman and the Savage, because gosh, they're good. They're really good,

720
00:34:43,998 --> 00:34:46,118
Speaker 3: and they were arrested and they were well and rock

721
00:34:46,118 --> 00:34:48,558
Speaker 3: and roll here we go. So that to me is

722
00:34:48,798 --> 00:34:50,798
Speaker 3: kind of where it got away, because once you start

723
00:34:51,078 --> 00:34:54,078
Speaker 3: expending that kind of relief pitching, what happens is then

724
00:34:54,118 --> 00:34:56,798
Speaker 3: you start spending relief pitching and bad moments. And I

725
00:34:56,878 --> 00:34:59,198
Speaker 3: hate that. I hate when I have to expend a

726
00:34:59,238 --> 00:35:01,678
Speaker 3: good relief pitching and bad moments and then I know

727
00:35:01,758 --> 00:35:05,358
Speaker 3: it's they get a day rest, but there's still expenditures

728
00:35:05,398 --> 00:35:08,438
Speaker 3: made there, and that always bothered me too. So, yeah,

729
00:35:08,558 --> 00:35:11,798
Speaker 3: it's starting pitching, man. Nurture it, teach you how to

730
00:35:11,798 --> 00:35:15,118
Speaker 3: go the third time through the batting order. Trust it. However,

731
00:35:15,318 --> 00:35:17,798
Speaker 3: in an elimination game, I would be more a little

732
00:35:17,798 --> 00:35:18,518
Speaker 3: bit more aggressive.

733
00:35:18,678 --> 00:35:20,558
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm with you one hundred percent, Joe and your

734
00:35:20,638 --> 00:35:23,398
Speaker 2: general theory there on that, and you know, for what

735
00:35:23,438 --> 00:35:25,398
Speaker 2: it's worth, I did talk to somebody on the Toronto

736
00:35:25,518 --> 00:35:29,238
Speaker 2: side about the first the game one decision with Gosman,

737
00:35:29,518 --> 00:35:32,638
Speaker 2: and the answer was pretty much exactly what you said that, Hey,

738
00:35:32,638 --> 00:35:36,278
Speaker 2: it's postseason baseball. It's third time around, we have arrested bullpen.

739
00:35:36,478 --> 00:35:38,958
Speaker 2: It's almost like a manager now is expected to run

740
00:35:38,998 --> 00:35:41,238
Speaker 2: the game that way because that's how it's done so

741
00:35:41,358 --> 00:35:44,918
Speaker 2: often now, and I think especially in a seven game series,

742
00:35:44,998 --> 00:35:47,638
Speaker 2: I'm with you, I'd be less inclined to start that

743
00:35:47,718 --> 00:35:52,078
Speaker 2: bullpen carousel so early in a longer series, especially again

744
00:35:52,158 --> 00:35:55,198
Speaker 2: with my ace fully rested on the mound, you know.

745
00:35:55,318 --> 00:35:57,558
Speaker 2: So to me, it's uh, you have to manage these

746
00:35:57,558 --> 00:35:59,998
Speaker 2: games a little bit differently. I get it, but getting

747
00:35:59,998 --> 00:36:02,198
Speaker 2: the bullpens early, I mean maybe they're also in bold

748
00:36:02,238 --> 00:36:03,678
Speaker 2: in a little bit, Joe by the fact that they

749
00:36:03,678 --> 00:36:05,918
Speaker 2: want that game in the York by using eight relief

750
00:36:05,998 --> 00:36:08,798
Speaker 2: pitchers and they all pitched well, which was like the

751
00:36:08,838 --> 00:36:12,598
Speaker 2: planetary alignment of the ages or that happened, because as

752
00:36:12,598 --> 00:36:14,678
Speaker 2: we know, the more pitchers you bring in, more likely

753
00:36:14,758 --> 00:36:16,678
Speaker 2: is that one of them just does not have it

754
00:36:16,718 --> 00:36:17,078
Speaker 2: that day.

755
00:36:17,238 --> 00:36:20,558
Speaker 3: Dude, it's uncomfortable. I'm telling you all these best laid plans,

756
00:36:20,598 --> 00:36:23,598
Speaker 3: and in today's game with the three batter minimum, to me,

757
00:36:23,718 --> 00:36:25,558
Speaker 3: makes it more difficult because there's going to be one

758
00:36:25,558 --> 00:36:27,718
Speaker 3: of those three hitters you don't like without getting to

759
00:36:27,758 --> 00:36:30,118
Speaker 3: the third out of the inning. That rule change bothered

760
00:36:30,118 --> 00:36:33,118
Speaker 3: me as much as any eliminated the Randy Cholates of

761
00:36:33,158 --> 00:36:36,678
Speaker 3: the world, the left handed specialists primarily there even could

762
00:36:36,678 --> 00:36:39,318
Speaker 3: have been at the Chad Bradford Matt Chad with the

763
00:36:39,398 --> 00:36:42,198
Speaker 3: right handed specialist stuff, you know, Chad Walls. I mean,

764
00:36:42,238 --> 00:36:44,878
Speaker 3: all these guys that were really good, maybe in a

765
00:36:45,878 --> 00:36:49,038
Speaker 3: smaller sample size and in and out burger kind of

766
00:36:49,078 --> 00:36:52,278
Speaker 3: a thing which I loved. So yeah, it's different. You

767
00:36:52,438 --> 00:36:54,398
Speaker 3: just kind of alluded to it like this is what

768
00:36:54,438 --> 00:36:56,718
Speaker 3: these managers know now. I mean, this is a lot

769
00:36:56,758 --> 00:37:00,838
Speaker 3: of them never really managed through stud starting pitchers, you know,

770
00:37:00,918 --> 00:37:04,198
Speaker 3: going six plus innings often and encouraging them to do

771
00:37:04,278 --> 00:37:07,078
Speaker 3: so and having to be part of the landscape. It's

772
00:37:07,118 --> 00:37:09,478
Speaker 3: not a lot of the guys managing now. There's a

773
00:37:09,518 --> 00:37:11,878
Speaker 3: lot of that never really went through a minor league

774
00:37:11,878 --> 00:37:15,038
Speaker 3: situation to develop young pitching, to see it pitch more

775
00:37:15,678 --> 00:37:18,078
Speaker 3: than six innings and throw maybe hundred and ten pitches,

776
00:37:18,398 --> 00:37:20,398
Speaker 3: which is no big deal. Really. They've made it a

777
00:37:20,398 --> 00:37:23,358
Speaker 3: big deal, but it's not. So if you've never never

778
00:37:23,398 --> 00:37:25,838
Speaker 3: been through this, you don't quite understand it. And of

779
00:37:25,878 --> 00:37:27,958
Speaker 3: course they're going to follow the lead of what, you know,

780
00:37:28,038 --> 00:37:29,718
Speaker 3: kind of what they're been told to do. And I

781
00:37:29,758 --> 00:37:32,118
Speaker 3: think that's a lot of a lot of the bullpen

782
00:37:32,238 --> 00:37:35,438
Speaker 3: worrying in games today is the you know, the brainschild

783
00:37:35,438 --> 00:37:38,358
Speaker 3: the front offices and analytical departments, and that's that's it.

784
00:37:38,558 --> 00:37:41,158
Speaker 3: The guys that fight against it have done it differently

785
00:37:41,158 --> 00:37:43,838
Speaker 3: in the past because they've actually, you know, managed games

786
00:37:43,878 --> 00:37:47,598
Speaker 3: where there wasn't as much consideration before the game, which

787
00:37:47,598 --> 00:37:49,038
Speaker 3: you can or cannot do well.

788
00:37:49,078 --> 00:37:51,558
Speaker 2: I can tell you I'm really impressed with the pitching

789
00:37:51,598 --> 00:37:55,158
Speaker 2: culture of the Seattle Mariners. They have great analytics department

790
00:37:55,198 --> 00:37:57,438
Speaker 2: when it comes to pitch shaping and knowing you know

791
00:37:57,478 --> 00:37:59,638
Speaker 2: what stuff to use. It's a great combination of that

792
00:37:59,758 --> 00:38:03,118
Speaker 2: and feel. They do the old school things really well.

793
00:38:03,518 --> 00:38:06,358
Speaker 2: They led the American League in strike percentage, They led

794
00:38:06,358 --> 00:38:09,198
Speaker 2: the American League in first pitch strike percentage. They led

795
00:38:09,198 --> 00:38:12,318
Speaker 2: the American League in throwing fastballs. They led the American

796
00:38:12,398 --> 00:38:15,598
Speaker 2: League and most pitches thrown with count leverage. Their mantra

797
00:38:15,838 --> 00:38:19,318
Speaker 2: is count is king. They go at you control the

798
00:38:19,438 --> 00:38:21,758
Speaker 2: bat for the first pitch and then go outside the zone.

799
00:38:21,918 --> 00:38:25,318
Speaker 2: They have a bunch of athletic elite movers on the mound.

800
00:38:25,318 --> 00:38:27,838
Speaker 2: When you hear that term movers, that means they're athletic,

801
00:38:28,038 --> 00:38:30,998
Speaker 2: and the way that they get down the mound they're not.

802
00:38:31,398 --> 00:38:35,798
Speaker 2: You know, these highly mechanized, high effort type deliveries, so

803
00:38:35,878 --> 00:38:38,758
Speaker 2: they can command the baseball that way and they do.

804
00:38:38,798 --> 00:38:42,398
Speaker 2: They have stuff plus command, and I'm just really impressed,

805
00:38:42,478 --> 00:38:44,518
Speaker 2: Joe with the philosophy of the Mariners, the way that

806
00:38:44,558 --> 00:38:46,998
Speaker 2: it works and the way they've all bought in and

807
00:38:47,038 --> 00:38:48,918
Speaker 2: it all again is in the hands of cal Rawley

808
00:38:48,918 --> 00:38:51,998
Speaker 2: once the game starts. But they went to Toronto with

809
00:38:52,118 --> 00:38:55,558
Speaker 2: two pitchers on short rests and they won both games.

810
00:38:55,958 --> 00:38:58,558
Speaker 2: And you know, they're now what five and two of

811
00:38:58,598 --> 00:39:01,158
Speaker 2: the postseason, and their best pitcher, Brian Wu, hasn't even

812
00:39:01,198 --> 00:39:03,158
Speaker 2: thrown a baseball yet. What do you see from the

813
00:39:03,198 --> 00:39:04,198
Speaker 2: Seattle staff.

814
00:39:04,718 --> 00:39:08,918
Speaker 3: Well, you're absolutely I mean, those are really impressive numbers

815
00:39:08,958 --> 00:39:11,638
Speaker 3: that that is how you want as you run a

816
00:39:11,678 --> 00:39:14,198
Speaker 3: minor league system and you're nurturing your guys coming up.

817
00:39:14,398 --> 00:39:16,598
Speaker 3: Those are the tenants that you want to put in place,

818
00:39:17,078 --> 00:39:19,678
Speaker 3: no question. For us, a big part of it was

819
00:39:19,718 --> 00:39:22,478
Speaker 3: to dominate the one one count. When you could dominate

820
00:39:22,518 --> 00:39:24,958
Speaker 3: one to one, you really the difference for a hitter

821
00:39:24,998 --> 00:39:27,118
Speaker 3: between two and one and one and two count is

822
00:39:27,158 --> 00:39:31,638
Speaker 3: incredibly different. And it just first pitch, strike one, aggressive,

823
00:39:31,678 --> 00:39:33,878
Speaker 3: go after these guys. You're going to give up some

824
00:39:34,038 --> 00:39:36,278
Speaker 3: like well struck balls. You're going to do that. Remember

825
00:39:36,358 --> 00:39:39,358
Speaker 3: James Shields, we're playing I think it was Detroit, and

826
00:39:39,398 --> 00:39:41,278
Speaker 3: he gave up four points in the first inning throwing

827
00:39:41,358 --> 00:39:44,038
Speaker 3: his fastball, and they're hitting it a little bit, and

828
00:39:44,078 --> 00:39:46,558
Speaker 3: he came in. I said, listen, please don't stop doing that.

829
00:39:46,998 --> 00:39:48,638
Speaker 3: Just throw it in a better spot. You know, they

830
00:39:48,678 --> 00:39:50,798
Speaker 3: were just bad. They were badly located pitches, and they

831
00:39:50,838 --> 00:39:53,758
Speaker 3: were getting a little bit. But the fastball is still

832
00:39:53,838 --> 00:39:55,958
Speaker 3: going to be the best pitch in baseball. I believe

833
00:39:56,278 --> 00:39:59,518
Speaker 3: a well located strike commanded fastball is the best pitch.

834
00:39:59,638 --> 00:40:02,038
Speaker 3: Number two for me would be the change up. I

835
00:40:02,078 --> 00:40:03,678
Speaker 3: love that back and forth with the whole thing. Number

836
00:40:03,678 --> 00:40:06,198
Speaker 3: three for me is a curveball, and then number four

837
00:40:06,198 --> 00:40:08,758
Speaker 3: would be a slider cutter kind of a thing. And

838
00:40:08,878 --> 00:40:11,798
Speaker 3: if you are able to throw and command and your

839
00:40:11,918 --> 00:40:14,718
Speaker 3: arm could withstand a splitter a forkball. There we go.

840
00:40:15,118 --> 00:40:19,318
Speaker 3: But I would start with these basic parts of pitching society.

841
00:40:19,798 --> 00:40:23,598
Speaker 3: You your fastball, your change up, your curveball. Not I

842
00:40:23,678 --> 00:40:26,758
Speaker 3: love a curveball. A misconception there is that like you

843
00:40:26,838 --> 00:40:29,678
Speaker 3: throw it to writing's. I love opposite side hooks, where

844
00:40:29,678 --> 00:40:31,118
Speaker 3: you go for the back foot of the hitter, like

845
00:40:31,198 --> 00:40:33,438
Speaker 3: right curve on a left hand hit, or vice versa.

846
00:40:33,558 --> 00:40:35,918
Speaker 3: So they do all these things. That's my I guess

847
00:40:35,918 --> 00:40:37,358
Speaker 3: what I'm driving it. They do all these things. They

848
00:40:37,358 --> 00:40:40,078
Speaker 3: are fun to watch. Mover is a nice word. They

849
00:40:40,118 --> 00:40:44,758
Speaker 3: are very athletic, they're smooth, they're strike throwers, they're assertive,

850
00:40:44,878 --> 00:40:47,918
Speaker 3: they don't back down. They take charge of the moment.

851
00:40:48,198 --> 00:40:50,478
Speaker 3: And then, like you said before, perfectly they have the

852
00:40:50,598 --> 00:40:51,478
Speaker 3: right catcher to do it with.

853
00:40:51,718 --> 00:40:54,078
Speaker 2: You've brought up a pitch, Joe, that we need to

854
00:40:54,078 --> 00:40:56,398
Speaker 2: talk about. We'll do that right after this break. The cutter.

855
00:40:57,078 --> 00:40:59,318
Speaker 2: Do you like it? Do you hate it? Let's talk

856
00:40:59,358 --> 00:41:01,638
Speaker 2: about the cutter after this quick break.

857
00:41:01,518 --> 00:41:12,998
Speaker 4: On the Book of Joe.

858
00:41:15,198 --> 00:41:16,598
Speaker 2: Welcome back to the Book of Joe.

859
00:41:16,998 --> 00:41:17,158
Speaker 3: Joe.

860
00:41:17,238 --> 00:41:18,798
Speaker 2: When you mentioned the cutter, it made me think of

861
00:41:18,838 --> 00:41:22,998
Speaker 2: the Selo Mariners. These Clo Mariners were twenty seventh in

862
00:41:23,038 --> 00:41:26,238
Speaker 2: the major leagues and cutters thrown. They basically have thrown

863
00:41:26,398 --> 00:41:28,958
Speaker 2: none in the postseason. Other than a couple of guys

864
00:41:28,998 --> 00:41:33,358
Speaker 2: who don't pitch in high leverage situations, Caleb Ferguson and Vargas,

865
00:41:33,398 --> 00:41:35,398
Speaker 2: there's only two guys that throw cutters. I'm not a

866
00:41:35,438 --> 00:41:37,278
Speaker 2: huge fan of the cutter. I gotta be honest with you.

867
00:41:37,398 --> 00:41:39,758
Speaker 2: It's not a swing and mispitch. So you're trying to

868
00:41:39,798 --> 00:41:41,718
Speaker 2: get weak contact, move the ball off the barrel. I

869
00:41:41,758 --> 00:41:43,598
Speaker 2: get it a lot of times. It's just a foul ball,

870
00:41:43,718 --> 00:41:45,798
Speaker 2: and it's gonna make you throw another pitch. It does

871
00:41:45,878 --> 00:41:48,398
Speaker 2: not put hitters away. A lot of times you fall

872
00:41:48,438 --> 00:41:50,758
Speaker 2: in love with it. It's gonna take away from the quality

873
00:41:50,758 --> 00:41:53,598
Speaker 2: and velocity of your fastball. And it's interesting to me

874
00:41:53,878 --> 00:41:56,318
Speaker 2: that the Mariners we just talked about their pitching culture,

875
00:41:56,878 --> 00:41:59,558
Speaker 2: they are not in a rush to be handing cutters

876
00:41:59,558 --> 00:42:04,838
Speaker 2: to their pitchers. Change speeds. Sure, absolutely that in between

877
00:42:04,918 --> 00:42:07,798
Speaker 2: pitch the cutter, which hitters hit against, not a swing

878
00:42:07,838 --> 00:42:11,038
Speaker 2: a mispitch. Interesting to me that the Seattle Mariners are

879
00:42:11,078 --> 00:42:12,718
Speaker 2: not in love with that pitch the way a lot

880
00:42:12,718 --> 00:42:13,318
Speaker 2: of teams are.

881
00:42:13,558 --> 00:42:17,398
Speaker 3: Amen, Ellelujah. Cutter is a bad fastball. Now if you

882
00:42:17,438 --> 00:42:20,958
Speaker 3: have if you're Marianna Rivera and you have this chainsaw,

883
00:42:21,358 --> 00:42:25,118
Speaker 3: this buzzsaw completely different. I like for me the cutter.

884
00:42:25,558 --> 00:42:27,758
Speaker 3: I like it to the opposite side hitter also, and

885
00:42:27,798 --> 00:42:31,038
Speaker 3: I like it elevated. If you could elevate in with

886
00:42:31,078 --> 00:42:34,198
Speaker 3: your cutter to the opposite side hitter, that's really the

887
00:42:34,238 --> 00:42:35,998
Speaker 3: pitch that's going to get on his hands and you're

888
00:42:35,998 --> 00:42:37,478
Speaker 3: going to get to the weak part of the bat.

889
00:42:37,598 --> 00:42:40,238
Speaker 3: To me, the cutter's designed. It should be designed to

890
00:42:40,318 --> 00:42:42,998
Speaker 3: get to the weak part of the bat's that's it.

891
00:42:43,798 --> 00:42:46,038
Speaker 3: Right on right cutter, left on left. Cutter goes to

892
00:42:46,078 --> 00:42:47,718
Speaker 3: the fat part of the bat. I don't like it.

893
00:42:48,078 --> 00:42:50,158
Speaker 3: And it's a bad fastball, meaning it's not thrown with

894
00:42:50,198 --> 00:42:52,958
Speaker 3: the same velocity as your normal fastball. So those are

895
00:42:52,958 --> 00:42:55,158
Speaker 3: those are my opinions. If you need a break the

896
00:42:55,198 --> 00:42:58,078
Speaker 3: ball to throw for a strike and you can't manipulate

897
00:42:58,118 --> 00:43:00,678
Speaker 3: the curveball or even a decent slider, that's when you

898
00:43:00,798 --> 00:43:02,958
Speaker 3: have to go to something like a cutter to give

899
00:43:02,958 --> 00:43:05,918
Speaker 3: a guy something else. That's something that moves a little

900
00:43:05,958 --> 00:43:08,278
Speaker 3: bit in a fastball count to get the hitter off

901
00:43:08,318 --> 00:43:11,638
Speaker 3: the dead fastball. So never been a fan. It's a

902
00:43:11,718 --> 00:43:15,598
Speaker 3: bad fastball. It should be elevated, elevated in opposite side.

903
00:43:15,638 --> 00:43:17,718
Speaker 3: For me, if you can't throw a break and ball

904
00:43:18,238 --> 00:43:21,558
Speaker 3: any kind, then maybe have to do it because fastball

905
00:43:21,598 --> 00:43:24,438
Speaker 3: for a strike in a fastball count, it maybe just

906
00:43:24,558 --> 00:43:26,758
Speaker 3: takes it off the sweet spot of the bat just

907
00:43:26,758 --> 00:43:29,158
Speaker 3: by moving a little bit, but it should always be

908
00:43:29,238 --> 00:43:30,958
Speaker 3: thrown for the weak part of the bat.

909
00:43:31,198 --> 00:43:35,398
Speaker 2: Interesting too, that both the Dodgers and the Mariners who

910
00:43:35,398 --> 00:43:38,278
Speaker 2: are out in front and there. Lcs's don't throw many

911
00:43:38,318 --> 00:43:41,198
Speaker 2: cutters at all. Dog hate only thirty eight cutters. The

912
00:43:41,198 --> 00:43:44,638
Speaker 2: Mariners don't thrown only thirty four the entire postseason. Talking

913
00:43:44,678 --> 00:43:46,198
Speaker 2: about less than a handful of game.

914
00:43:46,358 --> 00:43:48,878
Speaker 3: Bad fastball, I call it a bad fastball. I mean,

915
00:43:49,118 --> 00:43:51,878
Speaker 3: David Price really got into it, James Shields got into it.

916
00:43:52,118 --> 00:43:54,438
Speaker 3: My problem with that also is when you're throwing that pitch,

917
00:43:55,038 --> 00:43:56,958
Speaker 3: when you want to put that in your reperts well,

918
00:43:56,958 --> 00:43:58,598
Speaker 3: and we talked about schemes earlier in here, although he

919
00:43:58,638 --> 00:44:01,838
Speaker 3: did pretty well again, but whenever you're trying to include

920
00:44:01,838 --> 00:44:04,518
Speaker 3: a pitch into your mix, you have to make room

921
00:44:04,558 --> 00:44:06,478
Speaker 3: for it. So you're gonna you're gonna not throw something

922
00:44:06,478 --> 00:44:09,278
Speaker 3: you're really good at for a pitch that's not nearly

923
00:44:09,358 --> 00:44:13,478
Speaker 3: as good. So again, if there's a necessity to do

924
00:44:13,558 --> 00:44:16,838
Speaker 3: something differently, to add something based on results, based on

925
00:44:16,878 --> 00:44:19,598
Speaker 3: some things you can't manipulate the ball, your army, you wrist,

926
00:44:19,678 --> 00:44:23,838
Speaker 3: whatever cannot do, then that's an alternative. But I don't

927
00:44:23,918 --> 00:44:26,358
Speaker 3: like to put another pitch in the guy's mix who's

928
00:44:26,398 --> 00:44:28,918
Speaker 3: pretty good, because then he's got to fit it in.

929
00:44:28,998 --> 00:44:32,278
Speaker 3: Sometimes so normally something like this to me is based

930
00:44:32,318 --> 00:44:35,278
Speaker 3: on need and not to try to be creative to

931
00:44:35,358 --> 00:44:39,118
Speaker 3: add to a great James Shield's change up in his curveball.

932
00:44:39,198 --> 00:44:41,878
Speaker 3: I love this curveball. I used to ask them to

933
00:44:41,918 --> 00:44:44,318
Speaker 3: ask him please throw it more often and again, especially

934
00:44:44,358 --> 00:44:47,518
Speaker 3: against lefties. But the guys want to throw this cutter.

935
00:44:47,998 --> 00:44:50,518
Speaker 3: It kind of became the pitch dejure I think, like

936
00:44:50,558 --> 00:44:53,078
Speaker 3: between twenty ten and twenty twenty kind of. And I'm

937
00:44:53,158 --> 00:44:54,478
Speaker 3: very happy to hear that it's going away.

938
00:44:54,758 --> 00:44:56,598
Speaker 2: Last thing, Joe before we get out of here, will

939
00:44:56,598 --> 00:44:58,918
Speaker 2: somethingly get to your thought of the day coming up?

940
00:44:58,958 --> 00:45:01,598
Speaker 2: But a lot of managerial news. I mean, it's what

941
00:45:01,638 --> 00:45:04,438
Speaker 2: eight or nine openings around the game. Things I want

942
00:45:04,438 --> 00:45:06,838
Speaker 2: to get your take on here. One the possibility that

943
00:45:06,918 --> 00:45:10,478
Speaker 2: Albert Poolhols could be the next manager of the Angels,

944
00:45:10,998 --> 00:45:15,718
Speaker 2: and also that Mike Shilt stepped down as Padre's manager.

945
00:45:15,838 --> 00:45:17,998
Speaker 2: You know, Mike's the young man in his late fifties.

946
00:45:18,598 --> 00:45:21,638
Speaker 2: That is a great job, talented team that spends money

947
00:45:21,678 --> 00:45:25,478
Speaker 2: in a baseball crazy market. Hopefully everything is okay with

948
00:45:25,558 --> 00:45:27,958
Speaker 2: Mike as far as what's going on away from the field.

949
00:45:28,358 --> 00:45:31,598
Speaker 2: It's a personal decision, but that one really struck me

950
00:45:31,878 --> 00:45:34,838
Speaker 2: as surprising. Didn't see that one coming. As I said,

951
00:45:34,838 --> 00:45:36,958
Speaker 2: it's one of the better jobs in baseball, and Mike's

952
00:45:37,038 --> 00:45:39,278
Speaker 2: shilt is a good baseball guy walked away from it,

953
00:45:39,318 --> 00:45:41,598
Speaker 2: which you don't see happen a lot. So I know

954
00:45:41,638 --> 00:45:42,998
Speaker 2: there's a lot of openings. We're not going to go

955
00:45:43,038 --> 00:45:45,198
Speaker 2: through them all, but those two in particular, Joe really

956
00:45:45,278 --> 00:45:47,798
Speaker 2: jumped out at me. So your quick thoughts on those.

957
00:45:47,878 --> 00:45:50,318
Speaker 3: Yeah, Shilty's a lifer. I mean, that's that's the part

958
00:45:50,318 --> 00:45:51,958
Speaker 3: of it that I was concerned about too. I heard

959
00:45:51,958 --> 00:45:55,598
Speaker 3: about it but yesterday, the day before, and I send

960
00:45:55,638 --> 00:45:57,198
Speaker 3: him a text. I haven't heard back from him yet.

961
00:45:57,198 --> 00:45:58,398
Speaker 3: I don't even know if I have the right number

962
00:45:58,478 --> 00:46:00,678
Speaker 3: or not. You may have changed it since then. Mazes

963
00:46:00,798 --> 00:46:02,678
Speaker 3: is one to text me back. But I like the

964
00:46:02,718 --> 00:46:04,238
Speaker 3: guy a lot. Worked against it, and we had a

965
00:46:04,278 --> 00:46:07,158
Speaker 3: lot of great conversations that did an event Saint Louis

966
00:46:07,158 --> 00:46:09,958
Speaker 3: that we had an opportunity to visit with also, But

967
00:46:09,998 --> 00:46:12,038
Speaker 3: we're talking about a lifer. It is not like just

968
00:46:12,438 --> 00:46:15,518
Speaker 3: a passing fancy with this guy. This guy is baseball.

969
00:46:15,558 --> 00:46:17,998
Speaker 3: You know, that's who he is. So that that was

970
00:46:18,038 --> 00:46:19,758
Speaker 3: part of my concern and That's why I reached out

971
00:46:19,838 --> 00:46:22,358
Speaker 3: just make sure he's cool, and offered the opportunity to

972
00:46:22,838 --> 00:46:24,918
Speaker 3: give me a blast if he wanted to. It is

973
00:46:24,958 --> 00:46:27,518
Speaker 3: a grind all the time, but this guy is a

974
00:46:27,958 --> 00:46:30,918
Speaker 3: b is baseball. That's That's who Shilty is. On the

975
00:46:30,958 --> 00:46:33,438
Speaker 3: other side with Albert. Thing that I liked that Albert

976
00:46:33,478 --> 00:46:35,078
Speaker 3: did do is I like the fact that he did

977
00:46:35,118 --> 00:46:38,718
Speaker 3: go and managing winter ball. I really appreciate that because

978
00:46:38,798 --> 00:46:41,078
Speaker 3: a lot of times guys don't even do something like that.

979
00:46:41,398 --> 00:46:44,798
Speaker 3: And I don't understand that because I done this for

980
00:46:44,798 --> 00:46:47,718
Speaker 3: a while and I could never even imagine walking to

981
00:46:47,798 --> 00:46:50,478
Speaker 3: a big league dugout as a team's manager without ever

982
00:46:50,558 --> 00:46:53,118
Speaker 3: having understood how to run a game with what goes

983
00:46:53,158 --> 00:46:55,478
Speaker 3: into at the nuance of it. Whatever you could, you

984
00:46:55,518 --> 00:46:57,918
Speaker 3: could break it all down, all different areas, fast areas.

985
00:46:57,958 --> 00:47:00,598
Speaker 3: So at least he did that. The thing about Albert,

986
00:47:00,798 --> 00:47:02,118
Speaker 3: if in fact he were to get the job, you're

987
00:47:02,118 --> 00:47:04,758
Speaker 3: going to see a strong, I think heavy Saint Loui influence. There.

988
00:47:05,198 --> 00:47:07,238
Speaker 3: Had a lot of good conversation with him when he

989
00:47:07,278 --> 00:47:10,318
Speaker 3: first got when I first got to the Angels, very sharp,

990
00:47:10,438 --> 00:47:13,558
Speaker 3: well thought out baseball mind. He is. He's got strong opinions,

991
00:47:13,558 --> 00:47:15,158
Speaker 3: and I think a lot of it's based on working

992
00:47:15,198 --> 00:47:19,998
Speaker 3: with Tony LaRussa and of course sending in the Cardinal organization.

993
00:47:20,118 --> 00:47:22,878
Speaker 3: They were you know, they're gritty, they're tough guys over there, man,

994
00:47:22,918 --> 00:47:24,878
Speaker 3: and you had to come to play. They weren't going

995
00:47:24,878 --> 00:47:26,118
Speaker 3: to give you anything how to take it. So I

996
00:47:26,158 --> 00:47:28,238
Speaker 3: think he'll bring that kind of an attitude if in

997
00:47:28,238 --> 00:47:31,238
Speaker 3: fact he does get the job. But more than anything,

998
00:47:31,318 --> 00:47:33,398
Speaker 3: I like the fact that he at least made the

999
00:47:33,398 --> 00:47:35,798
Speaker 3: attempt to go out and manage first. I do believe

1000
00:47:35,798 --> 00:47:38,438
Speaker 3: that in the organization in the future that's wanting to

1001
00:47:38,438 --> 00:47:41,358
Speaker 3: give guys this opportunity, try to talk to them into

1002
00:47:41,398 --> 00:47:43,598
Speaker 3: or ask them to make them go. I left to

1003
00:47:43,598 --> 00:47:46,478
Speaker 3: see them scout an area for one draft at least,

1004
00:47:46,838 --> 00:47:49,238
Speaker 3: and I love to see them go do one half

1005
00:47:49,318 --> 00:47:51,678
Speaker 3: season of rookie ball to see what that feels like,

1006
00:47:51,758 --> 00:47:53,998
Speaker 3: to get your feet on the ground, cut your teeth

1007
00:47:53,998 --> 00:47:55,998
Speaker 3: a little bit, and understand everything that goes into this.

1008
00:47:56,278 --> 00:47:58,638
Speaker 3: To me, those are still the best training grounds that

1009
00:47:58,718 --> 00:48:01,798
Speaker 3: would be scouting rookie ball. And love to send him

1010
00:48:01,798 --> 00:48:03,398
Speaker 3: to an instructional league, but I don't even know what

1011
00:48:03,398 --> 00:48:04,358
Speaker 3: we do with that anymore.

1012
00:48:04,918 --> 00:48:06,998
Speaker 2: It's a great point. It reminds me of Dusty Baker

1013
00:48:07,038 --> 00:48:09,238
Speaker 2: did the same thing, went to go managing winter ball.

1014
00:48:09,318 --> 00:48:11,398
Speaker 2: Knew we wanted to manage have been a really good

1015
00:48:11,518 --> 00:48:13,718
Speaker 2: hitting coach. But I love when those guys take the

1016
00:48:13,718 --> 00:48:16,358
Speaker 2: initiative and do something, and players of that caliber, like

1017
00:48:16,398 --> 00:48:19,038
Speaker 2: an Albert, Let's face it, they don't have to do it.

1018
00:48:19,478 --> 00:48:21,518
Speaker 2: He could get a job without doing it. But I

1019
00:48:21,518 --> 00:48:23,878
Speaker 2: love the fact that he did do it. So that

1020
00:48:23,878 --> 00:48:25,878
Speaker 2: brings us to our ninth inning here, Joe, there's no

1021
00:48:25,958 --> 00:48:28,038
Speaker 2: question you got the ball in your hands. What do

1022
00:48:28,078 --> 00:48:30,158
Speaker 2: you got for us today to take us home on

1023
00:48:30,198 --> 00:48:30,878
Speaker 2: the book of Joe.

1024
00:48:31,118 --> 00:48:33,958
Speaker 3: Well, this came with the Dodgers in mind, you know,

1025
00:48:34,078 --> 00:48:36,198
Speaker 3: just thinking about the playoffs in general and what we're

1026
00:48:36,238 --> 00:48:39,118
Speaker 3: seeing covered that today. But the thing that stands out

1027
00:48:39,158 --> 00:48:41,038
Speaker 3: to me is how they have flipped their switch. We

1028
00:48:41,198 --> 00:48:44,078
Speaker 3: talked about that the Jimmy Edmund switched. They got one.

1029
00:48:44,518 --> 00:48:46,918
Speaker 3: The whole team has one. I think they've been plotting

1030
00:48:46,918 --> 00:48:49,078
Speaker 3: and planning for this, you know, this kind of run

1031
00:48:49,118 --> 00:48:51,198
Speaker 3: at the end, they expected it to happen, and it

1032
00:48:51,278 --> 00:48:54,678
Speaker 3: is just based on what I want to get to

1033
00:48:54,718 --> 00:48:57,198
Speaker 3: in a moment. So the Dodgers were the motivation for

1034
00:48:57,318 --> 00:49:00,878
Speaker 3: me doing this. So I just was researching some things

1035
00:49:00,918 --> 00:49:03,598
Speaker 3: and came to Benny Franklin. How about that? But his

1036
00:49:03,998 --> 00:49:07,678
Speaker 3: quote is an investment in knowledge pays the best interest,

1037
00:49:07,838 --> 00:49:10,518
Speaker 3: and I wanted to include an investment in talent pays

1038
00:49:10,518 --> 00:49:13,238
Speaker 3: the best interest. I think they're almost synonymous. They're almost

1039
00:49:13,238 --> 00:49:15,998
Speaker 3: synonymous terms right now, right, I mean the way baseball?

1040
00:49:16,078 --> 00:49:19,158
Speaker 3: Yeah right, I mean, so information we've talked about this

1041
00:49:19,198 --> 00:49:22,998
Speaker 3: where analytics is really powerful in the acquisitional process. It

1042
00:49:23,078 --> 00:49:26,878
Speaker 3: might be the most superstar element of analytics to me

1043
00:49:27,438 --> 00:49:29,838
Speaker 3: is to find and bring it to the fold the

1044
00:49:29,918 --> 00:49:33,718
Speaker 3: right people. So an investment in knowledge slash talent pays

1045
00:49:33,758 --> 00:49:37,158
Speaker 3: the best interest, and the Dodgers are demonstrating that right now.

1046
00:49:37,238 --> 00:49:39,918
Speaker 2: Great stuff, Joe. Well, the games have been great, the

1047
00:49:40,078 --> 00:49:42,158
Speaker 2: ratings have been great. Good, I mean, really, this has

1048
00:49:42,158 --> 00:49:46,278
Speaker 2: been a spectacular postseason in Major League Baseball. We're guaranteed

1049
00:49:46,318 --> 00:49:48,878
Speaker 2: to have at least one team in the World Series

1050
00:49:48,998 --> 00:49:52,838
Speaker 2: who hasn't been there in a lifetime, literally, So look

1051
00:49:52,878 --> 00:49:55,038
Speaker 2: forward to what's ahead and we'll get right back to

1052
00:49:55,078 --> 00:49:56,438
Speaker 2: it on the Book of Joe next time.

1053
00:49:56,678 --> 00:49:59,078
Speaker 3: Thanks Joe, Thank you, Tommy and Joy Seattle.

1054
00:50:06,478 --> 00:50:09,638
Speaker 1: The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

1055
00:50:09,918 --> 00:50:14,798
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1056
00:50:14,998 --> 00:50:16,798
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.