Speaker 1: I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is you and me, both
Speaker 1: for this season finale. I'm coming to you from my
Speaker 1: home in New York, place called Chappaquah, not far from
Speaker 1: the city, and joining me is a special guest who
Speaker 1: really needs no introduction, the forty second President and my husband,
Speaker 1: Bill Clinton.
Speaker 2: So welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: Bill and I think this is kind of an interesting
Speaker 1: first in a way because we've been having conversations big
Speaker 1: and small about literally everything for over fifty years, but
Speaker 1: we've never done this before where we have sat down
Speaker 1: to record a conversation just the two of us.
Speaker 3: So people might be wondering what we've been saying for
Speaker 3: fa few years.
Speaker 1: Well, this will give them a little glimpse into our
Speaker 1: never ended conversation. There's so much to talk about. Let's
Speaker 1: start with some global issues that we've been thinking and
Speaker 1: talking a lot about lately. Bill, I would really like
Speaker 1: for you to share with our listeners a brief window
Speaker 1: into the work that you did as president to bring
Speaker 1: the Israelis and Palestinians together to create a state for
Speaker 1: the Palestinians. You started at the very beginning of your
Speaker 1: presidency with the Oslo Accords, and we're literally working on
Speaker 1: this at the historic Camp David Summit toward the end
Speaker 1: of your term.
Speaker 2: Give our listeners some.
Speaker 1: Insight into what you saw and did during your eight
Speaker 1: years as president to deal with this very challenging situation.
Speaker 3: Well, I'll try to do it in a way that
Speaker 3: is still relevant to what is going on today. And
Speaker 3: I have been utterly stunned the lack of knowledge of
Speaker 3: what happened before all this mess occurred that we're living
Speaker 3: through now. So first, shortly after I was elected, we
Speaker 3: were numbified that the Israelis and the Palestinians were talking
Speaker 3: in Oslo, Norway, and that they might come up with
Speaker 3: a plan for a peace process. But if they did,
Speaker 3: they wanted America to kind of oversee it. Both sides
Speaker 3: sort of trusted America back then, so we started. And
Speaker 3: then shortly after I became president, in my first year anyway,
Speaker 3: in September, we had the signing of the so called
Speaker 3: Olo Accords on the south lawn of the White House,
Speaker 3: and it was a very hopeful time. Yasa Arafat was there, obviously,
Speaker 3: Shimone Perez was there as the Foreign Minister to Prime Minister.
Speaker 3: It's Acrabine and lots of other people who became a
Speaker 3: part of our almost everyday life. You remember the eight
Speaker 3: years I was in the White House. We worked for
Speaker 3: eight solid years. So it's very important that people understand
Speaker 3: where this was then, because there was an enormous hunger
Speaker 3: in Israel to have a piece deal that would give
Speaker 3: the Palestinians their state. We had a prime minister first
Speaker 3: in Rabin, who literally gave his life. He was murdered
Speaker 3: because he was trying to get this two state solution.
Speaker 3: It broke my heart. I loved him as much as
Speaker 3: any man I've ever known, and we but it's hard
Speaker 3: to explain now that you know, we were all working
Speaker 3: together all the time. We were talking a shorthand to
Speaker 3: each other, including the Palestinian leaders in the Israelis and
Speaker 3: me personally. So Rabine was.
Speaker 2: Killed and that was what nineteen ninety five, late.
Speaker 3: Nineteen ninety five November, Okay, So after Rabin was killed,
Speaker 3: Paris was Prime minister for wild and Nettanil who got in.
Speaker 3: Then in nineteen ninety eight, something truly remarkable happened. We
Speaker 3: had the only year at that time, the first year
Speaker 3: in the history of Israel, when not a single solitary
Speaker 3: person was killed by a terrorist incident, and it was stunning.
Speaker 3: We finally had a year when it all worked, and
Speaker 3: it's impossible to believe now, but I mean, you had
Speaker 3: the Israeli intelligence fausting intelligence and the American CIA working
Speaker 3: hand in glove with others trying to keep people alive.
Speaker 3: Was fascinating. Okay. So then in nineteen ninety eight there
Speaker 3: was an election in which the people of Israel said,
Speaker 3: let's try again for peace, and that's how Ahudbarok, who
Speaker 3: was the most decorative soldier in Israeli history, became Prime Minister.
Speaker 3: And this is the important thing for people to know. Now,
Speaker 3: this is not all that long ago, twenty five years ago.
Speaker 3: We all we're working together, and we kept turning over
Speaker 3: more land to the Palestinians and kept, you know, moving
Speaker 3: forward on all these other issues. And finally at the
Speaker 3: end of my term, near the end, we decided to
Speaker 3: meet at Camp David because the Palestinians had still never
Speaker 3: actually said what they would accept. So we met at
Speaker 3: Camp David, and I never thought we'd get an agreement there.
Speaker 3: All the stuff you read today, almost one hundred percent
Speaker 3: of it is just hooey for people who either weren't
Speaker 3: there or have bad memories, and I was personally involved
Speaker 3: in this. This wasn't some handed over to my aids.
Speaker 3: So what we wanted to know what Camp David is
Speaker 3: how much will the traffic bear here? Where? Is there
Speaker 3: going to be a deal that the Palestinians will have
Speaker 3: a state, It will be sustainable economically and politically and supportable,
Speaker 3: and it will lead to a total end of the
Speaker 3: conflict and a new era of partnership. There were people
Speaker 3: who didn't like that, including Hamas. Hamas never signed on
Speaker 3: to this. Their goal was always to get rid of Israel.
Speaker 2: They've always been for the elimination of Israel.
Speaker 3: The elimination they wanted to.
Speaker 1: Doubt in their actions, their their documents, or anything.
Speaker 3: Else they always wanted to make. Used to talk about
Speaker 3: making Israel unlivable so all the people would just leave.
Speaker 3: So here we go. We go to Camp David, and
Speaker 3: after that I had a pretty good idea of what
Speaker 3: they would and wouldn't take as a state.
Speaker 2: And what Israel would and wouldn't give exactly.
Speaker 3: So we worked for a little while after Camp David,
Speaker 3: and both sides then asked me to offer a final
Speaker 3: proposal where they would basically fill in the blanks. And
Speaker 3: this is what our listeners need to know. This is
Speaker 3: what was offered, what Israel agreed to. I recommended that
Speaker 3: there'd be two states, that Israel is within the sixty
Speaker 3: seven borders as the UN resolutions called for, with some
Speaker 3: land adjustments to cover eighty plus percent of the settlers
Speaker 3: on the West Bank, which were then under one hundred thousand,
Speaker 3: far fewer than now, And that the Palestinians get the
Speaker 3: West Bank called for in the Oslo courts, plus Gaza,
Speaker 3: of course, plus four percent of Israel to make up
Speaker 3: for the four percent necessary to include the settlers. And
Speaker 3: that the West Bank and Gaza be connected by overhead
Speaker 3: highways that were subject to no checks, total free movement,
Speaker 3: and that there be you know, agreed upon prison releases
Speaker 3: and all that so that we could settle the populations
Speaker 3: as much as possible. The Palestinians would get a capital
Speaker 3: in East Jerusalem. That was a big known onn Israeli
Speaker 3: politics for years. You can never agree to divide Jerusalem
Speaker 3: a hood. Barack's cabinet supported a capital in East Jerusalem
Speaker 3: for the Palacinians. It was a pretty good deal. I
Speaker 3: mean it's unthinkable today, that's how close we were. There
Speaker 3: were listening posts in the West Bank which Israel had,
Speaker 3: which they said at the time they were right. They said,
Speaker 3: we can't dismantle these now because of Saddam Hussein and
Speaker 3: because we don't have a peace agreement with Syria with Osat,
Speaker 3: so we will let the Palacinians have equal access and effect.
Speaker 3: Every time we're up fair, they can be up there,
Speaker 3: because we all understood that if we had a peace
Speaker 3: agreement with a new state, the enemies of peace would
Speaker 3: try to kill the leaders of both sides for at
Speaker 3: least three or four years.
Speaker 1: Remember, they killed unwar Sadad Yep after Egypt made peace.
Speaker 3: Who killed Saddad an Egyptian who thought he was a
Speaker 3: bad Muslim and a bad Egyptian for making peace? Who
Speaker 3: Robine and Israeli who came from a radical settler group
Speaker 3: who thought he had betrayed his faith in his nation
Speaker 3: by making peace with his neighbors and trying to give
Speaker 3: the Palestinians estate, who destroyed a hood Barocks government, the
Speaker 3: settlers who didn't want him to give the Palestinians estate. Now,
Speaker 3: you can't live in the past, but let's look at
Speaker 3: what happened after that. After I left office.
Speaker 1: Well, I think it's important though, before you go there.
Speaker 1: You made the offer that you've just described. Yeah, I did,
Speaker 1: and the Israelis accepted it.
Speaker 3: And the Israelis accepted it, and Palistinians wanted a few
Speaker 3: more blocks for Christian churches in the Old City. They
Speaker 3: wanted a clear say, which we gave them on what
Speaker 3: countries would be in an international security force that we
Speaker 3: would put on the eastern flank of the Palestinian state.
Speaker 3: We're owning over a few blocks of the Old City
Speaker 3: of Jerusalem. So I laid all this out there. Six
Speaker 3: weeks before I left office, Yah Sir Arafat was in town.
Speaker 3: He came by the Seami and I wanted to see
Speaker 3: him alone. And keep in mind, the United Nations had
Speaker 3: designated Arafat to represent the Palestinians. So I asked him,
Speaker 3: I said, are we going to do this peace deal?
Speaker 3: He said sure. I said no, no, No. I said,
Speaker 3: this is serious because I have a chance to go
Speaker 3: to North Korea and make an agreement with them that
Speaker 3: could end their nuclear program and their missile program and
Speaker 3: take a dark cloud off the future of North Asia.
Speaker 3: But American president can't just drop down on North Korea
Speaker 3: for the first time since the end of the Korean War.
Speaker 3: I have to go to South Korea. I have to
Speaker 3: go to Japan, which still had prisoners in North Korea.
Speaker 3: I have to go to Russia and China, which were
Speaker 3: the co sponsors of the peace. He said, well, how
Speaker 3: long will it take? I said about twelve days if
Speaker 3: I don't sleep, and he said, oh, you can't do that.
Speaker 3: It's the only time I was ever with their fat
Speaker 3: where I saw tears in his eyes. He said, you
Speaker 3: can't do that. I said, why, because you're going to
Speaker 3: sign this deal when we get it done, and it
Speaker 3: needs to look like I'm putting heavy pressure on you.
Speaker 3: He said, sure, yes, you can't go away. I said, okay,
Speaker 3: but you just owe me the truth. If you're not
Speaker 3: going to do this, you have to tell me. He said,
Speaker 3: my god, if we don't do it while you're here,
Speaker 3: it may be ten years, twenty years, maybe forever. We
Speaker 3: have to do it now. He had never ever lied
Speaker 3: to me. He was hard to get a commitment out of,
Speaker 3: but he never lied, and so he just it never happened.
Speaker 3: I don't know whether he was afraid he would be
Speaker 3: killed immediately, but he certainly wasn't afraid. He spent the
Speaker 3: night in a different place for twenty years every night.
Speaker 3: In other words, people were trying to kill him too.
Speaker 3: All this time, everybody acts like, all this is a
Speaker 3: free run, you know. It's if you try to make
Speaker 3: peace between people who've been fighting, the people who have
Speaker 3: an interest in the fighting will try to stop you.
Speaker 3: So anyway, the date came and the date went, and
Speaker 3: I have now listened for over twenty years to people
Speaker 3: tell me why Camp David was a failure. It wasn't.
Speaker 3: It was never designed to get a final agreement. No
Speaker 3: one in their right mind who'd been dealing with this
Speaker 3: believed that we could get an agreement. To Camp David,
Speaker 3: what we could get is a Pelsinians to tell us
Speaker 3: exactly where a deal might be, and then we pushed
Speaker 3: like crazy to get it. And even after I left,
Speaker 3: we had one more month in which they were working,
Speaker 3: and I was wearing air fat out by then. I said,
Speaker 3: why aren't you doing this deal? Don't you understand? He said, well,
Speaker 3: the Israelis are two week to make the deal. Now,
Speaker 3: Barack's going to lose the election. I say, he's going
Speaker 3: to lose the election because you let him get way
Speaker 3: out on his ledge, and you haven't taking this deal,
Speaker 3: and instead you started the second Intifado. I said, but
Speaker 3: I still have a seventy four percent approval riating in Israel,
Speaker 3: and we're going to ratify this deal or defeat it
Speaker 3: in an election. And he never said yes, he never
Speaker 3: said no, and he just I mean, that's basically what happened,
Speaker 3: and we're living with this that we could have had
Speaker 3: twenty five years. Imagine this of a Palaesinian.
Speaker 2: State, or twenty three years.
Speaker 3: That'd be twenty three years of Palasinian state on the
Speaker 3: West Bank and Gaza with no checkpoints, no stops, no nothing.
Speaker 3: And look what happened afterward. Ariel Sharon defeated net Nyahu
Speaker 3: for Prime Minister, and then the only question was which
Speaker 3: hardliner would win, because the Israeli voters by then said,
Speaker 3: oh my god, if they won't take what Barak and
Speaker 3: his cabinet offered, they're not going to take anything. Well,
Speaker 3: this elect the toughest guy we can.
Speaker 1: We'll be back right after this quick break before we
Speaker 1: move on to something else that's not quite as you know,
Speaker 1: terrible as war. We are still in the midst of
Speaker 1: trying to help Ukraine against the savage invasion by Russia.
Speaker 1: And Congress is currently debating the terms of a foreign
Speaker 1: aid package which is necessary to provide further funding and
Speaker 1: support to Ukraine. And you're seeing the opposition to helping
Speaker 1: Ukraine primarily but not exclusively in the Republican Party.
Speaker 2: So you think we're.
Speaker 1: Going to get aid to help Ukraine, which is you know,
Speaker 1: in a very difficult position because obviously it doesn't have
Speaker 1: the population that Russia does. Russia's emptied its jails, for
Speaker 1: heaven's sakes to put people on the front line as
Speaker 1: literally cannon fodder. Russia has much more resources than Ukraine
Speaker 1: to keep putting advanced weaponry. How do you see that
Speaker 1: current conflict because there are people in our country. You
Speaker 1: don't understand that if Putin gets away with this in Ukraine,
Speaker 1: watch out, because he's not going to stop. Oh.
Speaker 3: I think this is one of the most momentous decisions
Speaker 3: we have to make that will affect the next twenty
Speaker 3: or thirty years. The United States cannot walk away from Ukraine.
Speaker 3: I think there are two things going on. The Republicans
Speaker 3: in the Congress are using this to try to force
Speaker 3: the Democrats and the White House to agree to more
Speaker 3: restrictions along the border, because that feeds into their narrative
Speaker 3: that this is a big parble problem and it's the
Speaker 3: end of the world is at the hand if one
Speaker 3: more immigrant gets into the country. That's part of it.
Speaker 3: But it's also true that there is a core in
Speaker 3: our Congress that seems to turn to do whatever Vladimir
Speaker 3: Putin wants because he works so hard to help them
Speaker 3: get the White House in twenty sixteen. And you know,
Speaker 3: this is not a game. It's not just what's in
Speaker 3: the best interests of one political party or another. What
Speaker 3: they really want the Russians is the metals and precious
Speaker 3: earths in eastern Ukraine, and Ukraine and Russia together have
Speaker 3: thirty percent of the world's wheat production. So I don't
Speaker 3: know if there's any non violent endo this, but I
Speaker 3: know that there will be no non violent into it
Speaker 3: unless we stay with Ukraine. Look, they haven't asked a
Speaker 3: single American to die for them. They haven't asked anybody
Speaker 3: else to fight and die for them. All they've asked
Speaker 3: us to do is to deal with Putin and his allies,
Speaker 3: giving him an almost insurmountable economic and military advantage and
Speaker 3: I think if we walk away from them, we will
Speaker 3: be paying for it thirty years from now. I think
Speaker 3: you have no idea. No one will trust the United
Speaker 3: States anymore as a partner. No one will believe we
Speaker 3: really care about freedom anymore. They will think this is
Speaker 3: everything's just the deal. What helps me today, what helps
Speaker 3: me tomorrow. We have no permanent values and convictions. I
Speaker 3: think it'll be a terrible mistake, but we may have
Speaker 3: to make a deal with the Republicans. I think, you know,
Speaker 3: there's some things that could be done along the border
Speaker 3: that wouldn't be so bad, because we are dealing with
Speaker 3: volumes of people coming in far greater than we've had
Speaker 3: in my lifetime. And it's not just America. It's happening everywhere.
Speaker 3: There's this huge upheaval in the world. So I think
Speaker 3: they ought to get together and try to work that out.
Speaker 3: But it is true that there is a cadre on
Speaker 3: the right that believes that Putin ought to win, and
Speaker 3: they're just wrong. They can't imagine unless you don't care
Speaker 3: about democracy and don't care if we prevail, that this
Speaker 3: is this is a big, big deal, and yes it
Speaker 3: costs some money. But they haven't asked us to die
Speaker 3: for them. They've asked us to give them a chance
Speaker 3: to live, and we ought to do it. Well.
Speaker 1: You know, you mentioned migration, and one of the increasing
Speaker 1: reasons for migration is the impact of climate change that
Speaker 1: is affecting, you know, people's ability to actually make a living,
Speaker 1: to be farmers in many parts, you know, they deal
Speaker 1: with drought and wildfires and flooding and erosion, landslides, all
Speaker 1: of that. And I just came back from the Climate
Speaker 1: Conference COP twenty eight in Dubai, which was both energizing
Speaker 1: because there are so many people trying so hard to
Speaker 1: deal with you know, the two halfs of the you know,
Speaker 1: the puzzle to try to mitigate the rising temperatures before
Speaker 1: it is too late, and try to help people adapt
Speaker 1: to the rising temperatures that are actually with us right now.
Speaker 1: And you've worked on climate change issues all over the world,
Speaker 1: particularly through the Clinton Global Initiative and all of its
Speaker 1: many commitments and partnerships. So what gives you hope in
Speaker 1: this fight against climate change?
Speaker 3: First of all, I think there continues to be a
Speaker 3: passion among young people to do something about this, an
Speaker 3: awareness and acceptance, a refusal to live in denial, and
Speaker 3: I think that's very hopeful. Secondly, every year, practically every
Speaker 3: month unveils new opportunities to generate more energy with fewer emissions,
Speaker 3: or to be more efficient in doing work around the world.
Speaker 3: They're all these opportunities. So the real challenges in getting
Speaker 3: leaders in place in every country from the national level down,
Speaker 3: who will hammer out the practical answers of this. This
Speaker 3: is you know, this is not a partiticularly ideological issue.
Speaker 3: This is a if you do one, two, three things,
Speaker 3: you'll get four or five six results. And I think
Speaker 3: we're it's an important thing that we're there. We don't
Speaker 3: have many open denihilists anymore. And that's the thing that
Speaker 3: gives me hope. That and the kids. I think that
Speaker 3: young people, if they just keep pushing, there's still an
Speaker 3: enormous amount that we could do. For example, in this country,
Speaker 3: that would actually be job creators, that will add more
Speaker 3: jobs to the economy, that will brighten the future and
Speaker 3: reduce the emissions.
Speaker 1: Well, Bill, you know, you've had some really interesting chances
Speaker 1: to travel this year and met some remarkable people. And
Speaker 1: I don't want to go through a travelogue, but maybe
Speaker 1: you could just quickly describe one of your most recent
Speaker 1: trips to Albania. You know, I think as we are
Speaker 1: in the holiday season, people want to hear about some hope.
Speaker 1: They want to hear that progress is possible. They want
Speaker 1: to feel that people, you know, can come together. And
Speaker 1: you saw an experience.
Speaker 3: I did that. I think there are lots of reasons
Speaker 3: to be hopeful looking around the world. I mean, we
Speaker 3: also went to Northern Ireland to celebrate the twenty five
Speaker 3: years of the peace process. And even though they're fighting
Speaker 3: over the government, nobody wants to go back to the conflict,
Speaker 3: and the Irish keep voting for more inclusive candidates, policies, futures.
Speaker 3: So then you know, I went to Albania, which is
Speaker 3: the Albania was just thirty years ago the last closed
Speaker 3: Stalinist dictatorship, and their dictator committed suicide and they opened
Speaker 3: the country and they decided to go in a total
Speaker 3: opposite direction. And at the same time when I got
Speaker 3: involved with them a little later, Kosovo, which is part
Speaker 3: was part of Serbia at the time, but basically it
Speaker 3: was over ninety something percent in Albanian was for its
Speaker 3: existence against Melosovich and Serbia, and so Hillary and I
Speaker 3: became very involved. We're living here in Chapqua, New York,
Speaker 3: and New York has the largest Albanian population outside Albania,
Speaker 3: and a lot of it's concentrated along where we live.
Speaker 3: Down this block from where I'm talking, we have two
Speaker 3: coast of our Albanian families. So I went there. I'd
Speaker 3: never been to Albania before, and Edi Rama, the Prime Minister,
Speaker 3: met me. He's a former mayor of Toronto, but he's
Speaker 3: also a gifted artist and a former basketball player. He
Speaker 3: is about six foot six and I stayed in what
Speaker 3: was the official Communist guest house in Stalinus days and
Speaker 3: it's a picture of how the world can move from
Speaker 3: close to open, how the world can move from war
Speaker 3: to peace. The new cabinet is about forty percent female,
Speaker 3: the new Parliament is about the same. It's as one
Speaker 3: of the most the youngest, most vigorous, and most gender
Speaker 3: balanced governments in Europe. So I wish the whole world
Speaker 3: could go to Albania for a day or two. I mean,
Speaker 3: it's just such a beautiful place, and they know what
Speaker 3: it's like to lose all their freedom. They're not having
Speaker 3: these debates that we're having in America. All they wanted
Speaker 3: to talk about was the future?
Speaker 1: You know, you told me one of the most moving
Speaker 1: parts of your experience is that they brought together all
Speaker 1: these children who their parents had named for you, and
Speaker 1: you got to meet dozens of children who were named
Speaker 1: Bill or William or Clinton.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was amazing, but it was optimistic.
Speaker 3: It was the thing I think is important. I wish
Speaker 3: every American could have seen it, not because of me,
Speaker 3: but because that's what people think of America. It's what
Speaker 3: people think we ought to be doing, saving lives, lifting
Speaker 3: people together, recognizing people's right to be and chart their
Speaker 3: own course. It was so touching.
Speaker 2: We'll be right back.
Speaker 1: Well, we're about to go into another election year, and
Speaker 1: I think the stakes could not be higher. What is
Speaker 1: your assessment of the stakes of this election in a
Speaker 1: way that our listeners can really take to heart and
Speaker 1: think about as we move forward.
Speaker 3: Well, first, I think we should be under no illusion
Speaker 3: there are a lot of Republicans who are just good
Speaker 3: Americans who disagree with Democrats like you and me. That's fine,
Speaker 3: But there is a hardcore now out there who believe
Speaker 3: so strongly that there are dominance of the cultural issues
Speaker 3: and the political issues is essential, and that they're willing
Speaker 3: to basically say goodbye to our democracy, and I don't
Speaker 3: want to say good about our democracy. I kind of
Speaker 3: like it here. I like all these arguments, and I
Speaker 3: like uncertainties, and I like fights, you know, in a
Speaker 3: good sense.
Speaker 1: And even finding common ground to compromise to find solutions
Speaker 1: for problems.
Speaker 3: You know, I talk to people all the time who
Speaker 3: were even people who were big opponents of mine when
Speaker 3: I was president, who say, you know, we're actually on
Speaker 3: the verge of using our democracy. Liz Cheney wrote this
Speaker 3: new book you know about it. I understand how a
Speaker 3: lot of people don't believe that or can't believe that,
Speaker 3: and they have so much to do every week to
Speaker 3: pay their bills, keep body and soul together, think about
Speaker 3: the things their kids needs. I understand that. But we
Speaker 3: literally have a chance to lose the democratic wealth life
Speaker 3: we have been trying to perfect over two hundred years.
Speaker 3: And it's not just majority rule, it's also minority rights,
Speaker 3: rule of law, individual rights, restraints on what government can
Speaker 3: and can't do, And so I think that's important. I
Speaker 3: agree there are imminent challenges that we have to address,
Speaker 3: but it's interesting almost every problem we've got, let's take immigration.
Speaker 3: This is actually a huge opportunity if we did like
Speaker 3: Canada does, for example, if people had to sponsor immigrants,
Speaker 3: not take financial responsibility for them, but you know, set
Speaker 3: up centers where they could work. What happens is only
Speaker 3: the places in Canada where people want immigrants get immigrants,
Speaker 3: and they're filling labor holes all the time that need
Speaker 3: to be filled. I mean, look at America has got
Speaker 3: a negative birth rate. There are places in this country
Speaker 3: that have huge shortages of workers, and most of these
Speaker 3: folks are just asking for a chance to work. I
Speaker 3: mean that's just one example. So if we were tactical
Speaker 3: instead of ideological, if we were just sitting down from
Speaker 3: opposite points of view to solve problems, I think most
Speaker 3: of this stuff could be a lot better. You know,
Speaker 3: George Bush and I do this leadership program together and
Speaker 3: it's about half Republican, half Democrat. We get together and
Speaker 3: meet with them and they try to solve problems together.
Speaker 2: These are mid career people.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're mid career people basically from twenty eight to
Speaker 3: forty two more or less. And the only requirement for
Speaker 3: getting in our program is you have to have something
Speaker 3: to do that you do besides your day job, you
Speaker 3: have to have some interest in something else. And it's
Speaker 3: been a joy because they go to his library in
Speaker 3: mine and we meet with them, and they go to
Speaker 3: the LBJ library and his father's library, and they learn
Speaker 3: how other people dealt with problems, and then they agree
Speaker 3: to work on certain problems. Once they agree to work
Speaker 3: on a problem, more than seventy percent of the time
Speaker 3: they reach a consensus about what to do about it.
Speaker 3: It's fascinating. So he and I have had a good time,
Speaker 3: but we have about decided we're troglodites were the We
Speaker 3: are the dinosaurs of the current age. Maybe because everything
Speaker 3: now is supposed to be a continuous fight and it's
Speaker 3: highly lucrative for the media, but it's a lousy way to.
Speaker 2: Run a railroad, you know.
Speaker 1: As I said, we have carried on a conversation now
Speaker 1: for more than fifty years, and you know, part of
Speaker 1: I think the real core of our relationships, our marriage
Speaker 1: has been we started a conversation and we never stopped,
Speaker 1: through good times and hard times, through happy times and
Speaker 1: sad times. It doesn't mean we don't get frustrated and
Speaker 1: upset with the other, because that's human nature, but we
Speaker 1: always kept talking. You know, I'm not giving relationship advice.
Speaker 1: Everybody has to find their own way. But I think
Speaker 1: our ability to keep talking is one of the reasons
Speaker 1: why we're still sitting here together.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I did too, I think you know, we've just
Speaker 3: came home from going to that cop and she got
Speaker 3: a little sick on the trip. She hadn't been home
Speaker 3: two minutes before. I knew what was wrong, what was
Speaker 3: right after she was feeling. That happens if you invest
Speaker 3: time in somebody over a long time, and we can
Speaker 3: talk a lot about how people have to talk about everything.
Speaker 3: I think one of the gifts you get from investing
Speaker 3: time in somebody over a long time is what you
Speaker 3: don't have to say what you see and know without
Speaker 3: anybody saying something.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: There is no perfect handbook for life. You have to
Speaker 3: figure it out as you go along. And you've always
Speaker 3: got to decide whether whatever commitment you make in whatever
Speaker 3: way or fulfilling that the bonds of love and the
Speaker 3: benefits of love outweigh the burdens and the frustrations. And
Speaker 3: that's a decision nobody can make for you. But we
Speaker 3: do know that people in general are social animals. That's
Speaker 3: why I think all this hate based politics they so
Speaker 3: bad for us. So you know, the idea that our
Speaker 3: differences are so much more important than what we have
Speaker 3: in common. And you know, I may sound Pollyanna, but
Speaker 3: I've lived for this for a long time and buy this.
Speaker 3: And I have always believed that we should keep trying
Speaker 3: to understand one another and keep reaching out to each other.
Speaker 3: And I believe that whether it starts with Hillary and
Speaker 3: me or anybody else's family, or the children or grandchildren
Speaker 3: we have, it's a gift to be alive. It carries burdens,
Speaker 3: it carries challenges, but I think just remembering that is important.
Speaker 3: We should just never take it for granted, never take
Speaker 3: it for granted. And I'm actually pretty optimistic, I always
Speaker 3: have been, but I have been very worried at this
Speaker 3: moment in history that our capacity city to grow and
Speaker 3: cooperation and understanding is a little bit under out.
Speaker 1: I want to end Bill by telling our listeners that you,
Speaker 1: I believe are Santa's Chief Elf. I have never met
Speaker 1: anybody who loves Christmas as much as you do. Literally,
Speaker 1: from the moment we started dating, I realized you were
Speaker 1: totally consumed by Christmas. By the decorating, the gift giving,
Speaker 1: the tree trimming, the church services, everything about Christmas. And
Speaker 1: I know that, you know, while I was in Dubai
Speaker 1: at the Climate conference, you were putting ornaments on the
Speaker 1: tree and you know, starting to decorate the house, which
Speaker 1: I thank you for very much. You know, but I
Speaker 1: think of your fundamentally optimistic and hopeful spirit as really
Speaker 1: reaching a christ Shindo every year around Christmas. And you
Speaker 1: know we now have our three grandchildren who make you know,
Speaker 1: Christmas so meaningful to us. And what are some of
Speaker 1: your favorite things to do during Christmas and your you
Speaker 1: know love of this season and what it represents.
Speaker 3: Well, it is true I am the ultimate Christmas Elf.
Speaker 3: Even when I was in the White House, I wrapped
Speaker 3: my own Christmas present, and I didn't do it for
Speaker 3: brownie points. I did it because I like it and
Speaker 3: because I think it put me in the right humor.
Speaker 3: The whole idea of the fundamental gifts of life and
Speaker 3: making new beginning and thinking of other people and loving
Speaker 3: them as yourselves and trying to do that that's always
Speaker 3: been important to me. Last night I put the ornaments
Speaker 3: on our Christmas tree, and I admit the older I
Speaker 3: get the fewer I put out used to be the
Speaker 3: tree was about to teeth over every time, because I mean,
Speaker 3: we've been married a long time and I have a
Speaker 3: couple of ornaments to go back to before we got married.
Speaker 4: So and you always know if we didn't bring all
Speaker 4: the boxes up, because you always say to me, well,
Speaker 4: where was that ornament, you know, the one that we
Speaker 4: got when Chelsea was born or whatever the you know,
Speaker 4: the provenance might be.
Speaker 3: But anyway, I think it's a good thing for people
Speaker 3: to be grateful for their blessings and to count them
Speaker 3: and to recognize that most people, no matter how difficult
Speaker 3: life is for them, can always think of somebody who's
Speaker 3: worse off and in greater need, and therefore we should
Speaker 3: try to lift them up. I also love being with
Speaker 3: our grandchildren Christmas time. I love going to their Christmas pageants.
Speaker 3: I love going to the church pageants. I love going
Speaker 3: to see the rockets at Radio City, and I guess
Speaker 3: we'll go to the train show with the Botanical Garden.
Speaker 3: For it's all over being a great parent at Christmas.
Speaker 3: If you live in and around New York, it's pretty
Speaker 3: fun because there's so many things for your grandchildren to
Speaker 3: go gaga over.
Speaker 1: I love them well. We want to wish everyone a
Speaker 1: really really happy holiday season. Happy Hanukkah to everyone out
Speaker 1: there who is lighting candles trying to bring some light
Speaker 1: into the dark. Merry Christmas to everyone out there who
Speaker 1: is getting ready to celebrate Christmas, and particularly a happy,
Speaker 1: healthy and peaceful New Year.
Speaker 2: I still believe in a place called hope.
Speaker 3: Yes for the monotheist there is where I think somehow
Speaker 3: the Muslims and the Christians and the Jews can, will,
Speaker 3: and must be reconciled. This is a dumb way to
Speaker 3: live life, killing other people and stopping young people from
Speaker 3: reaching their potential. But we can't get through it without
Speaker 3: understanding where we've been and what's going on here. So
Speaker 3: I appreciate your show and what you're trying to do
Speaker 3: to tell people what's going on here.
Speaker 2: That's our goal.
Speaker 3: Happy to your folks.
Speaker 2: That's it for this season.
Speaker 1: I'll be back soon, but in the meantime, check out
Speaker 1: our archive of episodes and here's to health, happiness, and
Speaker 1: peace in twenty twenty four. You and Me Both is
Speaker 1: brought to you by iHeart Podcasts. We're produced by Julie Subren,
Speaker 1: Kathleen Russo and Rob Russo, with help from Huma Abadeen,
Speaker 1: Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Sarah Horowitz, Laura Olin, Lona Valmorro,
Speaker 1: and Lily Weber. Our engineer is Zach McNeice, and the
Speaker 1: original music is by Forrest Gray. If you like you
Speaker 1: and me both, tell someone else about it. And if
Speaker 1: you're not already a subscriber, what are you waiting for?
Speaker 1: You can subscribe to you and me both on the
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.