1 00:00:01,520 --> 00:00:04,800 Speaker 1: I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is you and me, both 2 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:10,400 Speaker 1: for this season finale. I'm coming to you from my 3 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: home in New York, place called Chappaquah, not far from 4 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 1: the city, and joining me is a special guest who 5 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:24,240 Speaker 1: really needs no introduction, the forty second President and my husband, 6 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: Bill Clinton. 7 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 2: So welcome to the show. 8 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: Bill and I think this is kind of an interesting 9 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:35,480 Speaker 1: first in a way because we've been having conversations big 10 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: and small about literally everything for over fifty years, but 11 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:44,520 Speaker 1: we've never done this before where we have sat down 12 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: to record a conversation just the two of us. 13 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 3: So people might be wondering what we've been saying for 14 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:51,880 Speaker 3: fa few years. 15 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:54,959 Speaker 1: Well, this will give them a little glimpse into our 16 00:00:55,920 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: never ended conversation. There's so much to talk about. Let's 17 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: start with some global issues that we've been thinking and 18 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:09,480 Speaker 1: talking a lot about lately. Bill, I would really like 19 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: for you to share with our listeners a brief window 20 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: into the work that you did as president to bring 21 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:24,400 Speaker 1: the Israelis and Palestinians together to create a state for 22 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 1: the Palestinians. You started at the very beginning of your 23 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: presidency with the Oslo Accords, and we're literally working on 24 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: this at the historic Camp David Summit toward the end 25 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:38,840 Speaker 1: of your term. 26 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 2: Give our listeners some. 27 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:45,040 Speaker 1: Insight into what you saw and did during your eight 28 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: years as president to deal with this very challenging situation. 29 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 3: Well, I'll try to do it in a way that 30 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 3: is still relevant to what is going on today. And 31 00:01:55,960 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 3: I have been utterly stunned the lack of knowledge of 32 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 3: what happened before all this mess occurred that we're living 33 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 3: through now. So first, shortly after I was elected, we 34 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 3: were numbified that the Israelis and the Palestinians were talking 35 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:22,639 Speaker 3: in Oslo, Norway, and that they might come up with 36 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:25,359 Speaker 3: a plan for a peace process. But if they did, 37 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 3: they wanted America to kind of oversee it. Both sides 38 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 3: sort of trusted America back then, so we started. And 39 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 3: then shortly after I became president, in my first year anyway, 40 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 3: in September, we had the signing of the so called 41 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 3: Olo Accords on the south lawn of the White House, 42 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 3: and it was a very hopeful time. Yasa Arafat was there, obviously, 43 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 3: Shimone Perez was there as the Foreign Minister to Prime Minister. 44 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 3: It's Acrabine and lots of other people who became a 45 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 3: part of our almost everyday life. You remember the eight 46 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 3: years I was in the White House. We worked for 47 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:10,559 Speaker 3: eight solid years. So it's very important that people understand 48 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 3: where this was then, because there was an enormous hunger 49 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 3: in Israel to have a piece deal that would give 50 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:25,080 Speaker 3: the Palestinians their state. We had a prime minister first 51 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 3: in Rabin, who literally gave his life. He was murdered 52 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:32,519 Speaker 3: because he was trying to get this two state solution. 53 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 3: It broke my heart. I loved him as much as 54 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 3: any man I've ever known, and we but it's hard 55 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 3: to explain now that you know, we were all working 56 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 3: together all the time. We were talking a shorthand to 57 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 3: each other, including the Palestinian leaders in the Israelis and 58 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 3: me personally. So Rabine was. 59 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 2: Killed and that was what nineteen ninety five, late. 60 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 3: Nineteen ninety five November, Okay, So after Rabin was killed, 61 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 3: Paris was Prime minister for wild and Nettanil who got in. 62 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 3: Then in nineteen ninety eight, something truly remarkable happened. We 63 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 3: had the only year at that time, the first year 64 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 3: in the history of Israel, when not a single solitary 65 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 3: person was killed by a terrorist incident, and it was stunning. 66 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 3: We finally had a year when it all worked, and 67 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 3: it's impossible to believe now, but I mean, you had 68 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 3: the Israeli intelligence fausting intelligence and the American CIA working 69 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:35,479 Speaker 3: hand in glove with others trying to keep people alive. 70 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 3: Was fascinating. Okay. So then in nineteen ninety eight there 71 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 3: was an election in which the people of Israel said, 72 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 3: let's try again for peace, and that's how Ahudbarok, who 73 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 3: was the most decorative soldier in Israeli history, became Prime Minister. 74 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 3: And this is the important thing for people to know. Now, 75 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 3: this is not all that long ago, twenty five years ago. 76 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:04,160 Speaker 3: We all we're working together, and we kept turning over 77 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:07,160 Speaker 3: more land to the Palestinians and kept, you know, moving 78 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 3: forward on all these other issues. And finally at the 79 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 3: end of my term, near the end, we decided to 80 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 3: meet at Camp David because the Palestinians had still never 81 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 3: actually said what they would accept. So we met at 82 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 3: Camp David, and I never thought we'd get an agreement there. 83 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,119 Speaker 3: All the stuff you read today, almost one hundred percent 84 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 3: of it is just hooey for people who either weren't 85 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:36,239 Speaker 3: there or have bad memories, and I was personally involved 86 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:39,160 Speaker 3: in this. This wasn't some handed over to my aids. 87 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 3: So what we wanted to know what Camp David is 88 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 3: how much will the traffic bear here? Where? Is there 89 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,600 Speaker 3: going to be a deal that the Palestinians will have 90 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:53,280 Speaker 3: a state, It will be sustainable economically and politically and supportable, 91 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 3: and it will lead to a total end of the 92 00:05:55,720 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 3: conflict and a new era of partnership. There were people 93 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 3: who didn't like that, including Hamas. Hamas never signed on 94 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 3: to this. Their goal was always to get rid of Israel. 95 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 2: They've always been for the elimination of Israel. 96 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 3: The elimination they wanted to. 97 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 1: Doubt in their actions, their their documents, or anything. 98 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 3: Else they always wanted to make. Used to talk about 99 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 3: making Israel unlivable so all the people would just leave. 100 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 3: So here we go. We go to Camp David, and 101 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 3: after that I had a pretty good idea of what 102 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 3: they would and wouldn't take as a state. 103 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 2: And what Israel would and wouldn't give exactly. 104 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:41,480 Speaker 3: So we worked for a little while after Camp David, 105 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 3: and both sides then asked me to offer a final 106 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 3: proposal where they would basically fill in the blanks. And 107 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:52,039 Speaker 3: this is what our listeners need to know. This is 108 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:58,479 Speaker 3: what was offered, what Israel agreed to. I recommended that 109 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 3: there'd be two states, that Israel is within the sixty 110 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 3: seven borders as the UN resolutions called for, with some 111 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 3: land adjustments to cover eighty plus percent of the settlers 112 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 3: on the West Bank, which were then under one hundred thousand, 113 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 3: far fewer than now, And that the Palestinians get the 114 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:26,679 Speaker 3: West Bank called for in the Oslo courts, plus Gaza, 115 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 3: of course, plus four percent of Israel to make up 116 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 3: for the four percent necessary to include the settlers. And 117 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 3: that the West Bank and Gaza be connected by overhead 118 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 3: highways that were subject to no checks, total free movement, 119 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 3: and that there be you know, agreed upon prison releases 120 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 3: and all that so that we could settle the populations 121 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 3: as much as possible. The Palestinians would get a capital 122 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 3: in East Jerusalem. That was a big known onn Israeli 123 00:07:57,280 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 3: politics for years. You can never agree to divide Jerusalem 124 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 3: a hood. Barack's cabinet supported a capital in East Jerusalem 125 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 3: for the Palacinians. It was a pretty good deal. I 126 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 3: mean it's unthinkable today, that's how close we were. There 127 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 3: were listening posts in the West Bank which Israel had, 128 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 3: which they said at the time they were right. They said, 129 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 3: we can't dismantle these now because of Saddam Hussein and 130 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 3: because we don't have a peace agreement with Syria with Osat, 131 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 3: so we will let the Palacinians have equal access and effect. 132 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 3: Every time we're up fair, they can be up there, 133 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 3: because we all understood that if we had a peace 134 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 3: agreement with a new state, the enemies of peace would 135 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 3: try to kill the leaders of both sides for at 136 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 3: least three or four years. 137 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 1: Remember, they killed unwar Sadad Yep after Egypt made peace. 138 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 3: Who killed Saddad an Egyptian who thought he was a 139 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 3: bad Muslim and a bad Egyptian for making peace? Who 140 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 3: Robine and Israeli who came from a radical settler group 141 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 3: who thought he had betrayed his faith in his nation 142 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 3: by making peace with his neighbors and trying to give 143 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 3: the Palestinians estate, who destroyed a hood Barocks government, the 144 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:20,320 Speaker 3: settlers who didn't want him to give the Palestinians estate. Now, 145 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 3: you can't live in the past, but let's look at 146 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 3: what happened after that. After I left office. 147 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: Well, I think it's important though, before you go there. 148 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 1: You made the offer that you've just described. Yeah, I did, 149 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 1: and the Israelis accepted it. 150 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 3: And the Israelis accepted it, and Palistinians wanted a few 151 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 3: more blocks for Christian churches in the Old City. They 152 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 3: wanted a clear say, which we gave them on what 153 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 3: countries would be in an international security force that we 154 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 3: would put on the eastern flank of the Palestinian state. 155 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 3: We're owning over a few blocks of the Old City 156 00:09:54,880 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 3: of Jerusalem. So I laid all this out there. Six 157 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:04,959 Speaker 3: weeks before I left office, Yah Sir Arafat was in town. 158 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 3: He came by the Seami and I wanted to see 159 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:11,679 Speaker 3: him alone. And keep in mind, the United Nations had 160 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 3: designated Arafat to represent the Palestinians. So I asked him, 161 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 3: I said, are we going to do this peace deal? 162 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 3: He said sure. I said no, no, No. I said, 163 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 3: this is serious because I have a chance to go 164 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:29,959 Speaker 3: to North Korea and make an agreement with them that 165 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:33,080 Speaker 3: could end their nuclear program and their missile program and 166 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 3: take a dark cloud off the future of North Asia. 167 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 3: But American president can't just drop down on North Korea 168 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 3: for the first time since the end of the Korean War. 169 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 3: I have to go to South Korea. I have to 170 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 3: go to Japan, which still had prisoners in North Korea. 171 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 3: I have to go to Russia and China, which were 172 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 3: the co sponsors of the peace. He said, well, how 173 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 3: long will it take? I said about twelve days if 174 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 3: I don't sleep, and he said, oh, you can't do that. 175 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 3: It's the only time I was ever with their fat 176 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 3: where I saw tears in his eyes. He said, you 177 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 3: can't do that. I said, why, because you're going to 178 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:13,719 Speaker 3: sign this deal when we get it done, and it 179 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 3: needs to look like I'm putting heavy pressure on you. 180 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 3: He said, sure, yes, you can't go away. I said, okay, 181 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 3: but you just owe me the truth. If you're not 182 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 3: going to do this, you have to tell me. He said, 183 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 3: my god, if we don't do it while you're here, 184 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 3: it may be ten years, twenty years, maybe forever. We 185 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 3: have to do it now. He had never ever lied 186 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 3: to me. He was hard to get a commitment out of, 187 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:44,440 Speaker 3: but he never lied, and so he just it never happened. 188 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 3: I don't know whether he was afraid he would be 189 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 3: killed immediately, but he certainly wasn't afraid. He spent the 190 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:54,679 Speaker 3: night in a different place for twenty years every night. 191 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 3: In other words, people were trying to kill him too. 192 00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 3: All this time, everybody acts like, all this is a 193 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 3: free run, you know. It's if you try to make 194 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 3: peace between people who've been fighting, the people who have 195 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 3: an interest in the fighting will try to stop you. 196 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 3: So anyway, the date came and the date went, and 197 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 3: I have now listened for over twenty years to people 198 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 3: tell me why Camp David was a failure. It wasn't. 199 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 3: It was never designed to get a final agreement. No 200 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 3: one in their right mind who'd been dealing with this 201 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 3: believed that we could get an agreement. To Camp David, 202 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 3: what we could get is a Pelsinians to tell us 203 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 3: exactly where a deal might be, and then we pushed 204 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:40,560 Speaker 3: like crazy to get it. And even after I left, 205 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 3: we had one more month in which they were working, 206 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:48,199 Speaker 3: and I was wearing air fat out by then. I said, 207 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 3: why aren't you doing this deal? Don't you understand? He said, well, 208 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 3: the Israelis are two week to make the deal. Now, 209 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 3: Barack's going to lose the election. I say, he's going 210 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 3: to lose the election because you let him get way 211 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 3: out on his ledge, and you haven't taking this deal, 212 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 3: and instead you started the second Intifado. I said, but 213 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 3: I still have a seventy four percent approval riating in Israel, 214 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 3: and we're going to ratify this deal or defeat it 215 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 3: in an election. And he never said yes, he never 216 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 3: said no, and he just I mean, that's basically what happened, 217 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:23,439 Speaker 3: and we're living with this that we could have had 218 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 3: twenty five years. Imagine this of a Palaesinian. 219 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 2: State, or twenty three years. 220 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 3: That'd be twenty three years of Palasinian state on the 221 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 3: West Bank and Gaza with no checkpoints, no stops, no nothing. 222 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 3: And look what happened afterward. Ariel Sharon defeated net Nyahu 223 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:47,319 Speaker 3: for Prime Minister, and then the only question was which 224 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 3: hardliner would win, because the Israeli voters by then said, 225 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 3: oh my god, if they won't take what Barak and 226 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 3: his cabinet offered, they're not going to take anything. Well, 227 00:13:57,360 --> 00:13:59,319 Speaker 3: this elect the toughest guy we can. 228 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 1: We'll be back right after this quick break before we 229 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: move on to something else that's not quite as you know, 230 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 1: terrible as war. We are still in the midst of 231 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: trying to help Ukraine against the savage invasion by Russia. 232 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 1: And Congress is currently debating the terms of a foreign 233 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: aid package which is necessary to provide further funding and 234 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: support to Ukraine. And you're seeing the opposition to helping 235 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: Ukraine primarily but not exclusively in the Republican Party. 236 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 2: So you think we're. 237 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 1: Going to get aid to help Ukraine, which is you know, 238 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 1: in a very difficult position because obviously it doesn't have 239 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: the population that Russia does. Russia's emptied its jails, for 240 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 1: heaven's sakes to put people on the front line as 241 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 1: literally cannon fodder. Russia has much more resources than Ukraine 242 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 1: to keep putting advanced weaponry. How do you see that 243 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 1: current conflict because there are people in our country. You 244 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: don't understand that if Putin gets away with this in Ukraine, 245 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 1: watch out, because he's not going to stop. Oh. 246 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 3: I think this is one of the most momentous decisions 247 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 3: we have to make that will affect the next twenty 248 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 3: or thirty years. The United States cannot walk away from Ukraine. 249 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 3: I think there are two things going on. The Republicans 250 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 3: in the Congress are using this to try to force 251 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 3: the Democrats and the White House to agree to more 252 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 3: restrictions along the border, because that feeds into their narrative 253 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 3: that this is a big parble problem and it's the 254 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 3: end of the world is at the hand if one 255 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 3: more immigrant gets into the country. That's part of it. 256 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 3: But it's also true that there is a core in 257 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 3: our Congress that seems to turn to do whatever Vladimir 258 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 3: Putin wants because he works so hard to help them 259 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 3: get the White House in twenty sixteen. And you know, 260 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 3: this is not a game. It's not just what's in 261 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 3: the best interests of one political party or another. What 262 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 3: they really want the Russians is the metals and precious 263 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 3: earths in eastern Ukraine, and Ukraine and Russia together have 264 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 3: thirty percent of the world's wheat production. So I don't 265 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 3: know if there's any non violent endo this, but I 266 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 3: know that there will be no non violent into it 267 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 3: unless we stay with Ukraine. Look, they haven't asked a 268 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 3: single American to die for them. They haven't asked anybody 269 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 3: else to fight and die for them. All they've asked 270 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 3: us to do is to deal with Putin and his allies, 271 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 3: giving him an almost insurmountable economic and military advantage and 272 00:16:57,720 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 3: I think if we walk away from them, we will 273 00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 3: be paying for it thirty years from now. I think 274 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 3: you have no idea. No one will trust the United 275 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:08,439 Speaker 3: States anymore as a partner. No one will believe we 276 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 3: really care about freedom anymore. They will think this is 277 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 3: everything's just the deal. What helps me today, what helps 278 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 3: me tomorrow. We have no permanent values and convictions. I 279 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 3: think it'll be a terrible mistake, but we may have 280 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,439 Speaker 3: to make a deal with the Republicans. I think, you know, 281 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:26,399 Speaker 3: there's some things that could be done along the border 282 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 3: that wouldn't be so bad, because we are dealing with 283 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 3: volumes of people coming in far greater than we've had 284 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:39,640 Speaker 3: in my lifetime. And it's not just America. It's happening everywhere. 285 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 3: There's this huge upheaval in the world. So I think 286 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 3: they ought to get together and try to work that out. 287 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:49,639 Speaker 3: But it is true that there is a cadre on 288 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 3: the right that believes that Putin ought to win, and 289 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 3: they're just wrong. They can't imagine unless you don't care 290 00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:00,119 Speaker 3: about democracy and don't care if we prevail, that this 291 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 3: is this is a big, big deal, and yes it 292 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,120 Speaker 3: costs some money. But they haven't asked us to die 293 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 3: for them. They've asked us to give them a chance 294 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 3: to live, and we ought to do it. Well. 295 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:15,640 Speaker 1: You know, you mentioned migration, and one of the increasing 296 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: reasons for migration is the impact of climate change that 297 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 1: is affecting, you know, people's ability to actually make a living, 298 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 1: to be farmers in many parts, you know, they deal 299 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: with drought and wildfires and flooding and erosion, landslides, all 300 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 1: of that. And I just came back from the Climate 301 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 1: Conference COP twenty eight in Dubai, which was both energizing 302 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:45,239 Speaker 1: because there are so many people trying so hard to 303 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:48,959 Speaker 1: deal with you know, the two halfs of the you know, 304 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:53,679 Speaker 1: the puzzle to try to mitigate the rising temperatures before 305 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: it is too late, and try to help people adapt 306 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 1: to the rising temperatures that are actually with us right now. 307 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,639 Speaker 1: And you've worked on climate change issues all over the world, 308 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 1: particularly through the Clinton Global Initiative and all of its 309 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:12,160 Speaker 1: many commitments and partnerships. So what gives you hope in 310 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:14,119 Speaker 1: this fight against climate change? 311 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:17,639 Speaker 3: First of all, I think there continues to be a 312 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 3: passion among young people to do something about this, an 313 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:27,879 Speaker 3: awareness and acceptance, a refusal to live in denial, and 314 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 3: I think that's very hopeful. Secondly, every year, practically every 315 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 3: month unveils new opportunities to generate more energy with fewer emissions, 316 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 3: or to be more efficient in doing work around the world. 317 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 3: They're all these opportunities. So the real challenges in getting 318 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 3: leaders in place in every country from the national level down, 319 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,199 Speaker 3: who will hammer out the practical answers of this. This 320 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:01,679 Speaker 3: is you know, this is not a partiticularly ideological issue. 321 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 3: This is a if you do one, two, three things, 322 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:07,400 Speaker 3: you'll get four or five six results. And I think 323 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,640 Speaker 3: we're it's an important thing that we're there. We don't 324 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 3: have many open denihilists anymore. And that's the thing that 325 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:15,680 Speaker 3: gives me hope. That and the kids. I think that 326 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:19,959 Speaker 3: young people, if they just keep pushing, there's still an 327 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:24,120 Speaker 3: enormous amount that we could do. For example, in this country, 328 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 3: that would actually be job creators, that will add more 329 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,399 Speaker 3: jobs to the economy, that will brighten the future and 330 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 3: reduce the emissions. 331 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:37,960 Speaker 1: Well, Bill, you know, you've had some really interesting chances 332 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:42,399 Speaker 1: to travel this year and met some remarkable people. And 333 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: I don't want to go through a travelogue, but maybe 334 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: you could just quickly describe one of your most recent 335 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 1: trips to Albania. You know, I think as we are 336 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,639 Speaker 1: in the holiday season, people want to hear about some hope. 337 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 1: They want to hear that progress is possible. They want 338 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 1: to feel that people, you know, can come together. And 339 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,159 Speaker 1: you saw an experience. 340 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 3: I did that. I think there are lots of reasons 341 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 3: to be hopeful looking around the world. I mean, we 342 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 3: also went to Northern Ireland to celebrate the twenty five 343 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 3: years of the peace process. And even though they're fighting 344 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 3: over the government, nobody wants to go back to the conflict, 345 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:25,200 Speaker 3: and the Irish keep voting for more inclusive candidates, policies, futures. 346 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 3: So then you know, I went to Albania, which is 347 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 3: the Albania was just thirty years ago the last closed 348 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 3: Stalinist dictatorship, and their dictator committed suicide and they opened 349 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 3: the country and they decided to go in a total 350 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 3: opposite direction. And at the same time when I got 351 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 3: involved with them a little later, Kosovo, which is part 352 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:56,679 Speaker 3: was part of Serbia at the time, but basically it 353 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,640 Speaker 3: was over ninety something percent in Albanian was for its 354 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:05,719 Speaker 3: existence against Melosovich and Serbia, and so Hillary and I 355 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:09,680 Speaker 3: became very involved. We're living here in Chapqua, New York, 356 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 3: and New York has the largest Albanian population outside Albania, 357 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 3: and a lot of it's concentrated along where we live. 358 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 3: Down this block from where I'm talking, we have two 359 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 3: coast of our Albanian families. So I went there. I'd 360 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 3: never been to Albania before, and Edi Rama, the Prime Minister, 361 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 3: met me. He's a former mayor of Toronto, but he's 362 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:38,159 Speaker 3: also a gifted artist and a former basketball player. He 363 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,679 Speaker 3: is about six foot six and I stayed in what 364 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 3: was the official Communist guest house in Stalinus days and 365 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:50,120 Speaker 3: it's a picture of how the world can move from 366 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 3: close to open, how the world can move from war 367 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 3: to peace. The new cabinet is about forty percent female, 368 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:04,160 Speaker 3: the new Parliament is about the same. It's as one 369 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,639 Speaker 3: of the most the youngest, most vigorous, and most gender 370 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 3: balanced governments in Europe. So I wish the whole world 371 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,880 Speaker 3: could go to Albania for a day or two. I mean, 372 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 3: it's just such a beautiful place, and they know what 373 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 3: it's like to lose all their freedom. They're not having 374 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 3: these debates that we're having in America. All they wanted 375 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 3: to talk about was the future? 376 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:28,880 Speaker 1: You know, you told me one of the most moving 377 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,640 Speaker 1: parts of your experience is that they brought together all 378 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: these children who their parents had named for you, and 379 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 1: you got to meet dozens of children who were named 380 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 1: Bill or William or Clinton. 381 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was amazing, but it was optimistic. 382 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,880 Speaker 3: It was the thing I think is important. I wish 383 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 3: every American could have seen it, not because of me, 384 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 3: but because that's what people think of America. It's what 385 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 3: people think we ought to be doing, saving lives, lifting 386 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 3: people together, recognizing people's right to be and chart their 387 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:03,880 Speaker 3: own course. It was so touching. 388 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:10,200 Speaker 2: We'll be right back. 389 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 1: Well, we're about to go into another election year, and 390 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 1: I think the stakes could not be higher. What is 391 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:30,440 Speaker 1: your assessment of the stakes of this election in a 392 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 1: way that our listeners can really take to heart and 393 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 1: think about as we move forward. 394 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 3: Well, first, I think we should be under no illusion 395 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 3: there are a lot of Republicans who are just good 396 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 3: Americans who disagree with Democrats like you and me. That's fine, 397 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 3: But there is a hardcore now out there who believe 398 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:54,439 Speaker 3: so strongly that there are dominance of the cultural issues 399 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 3: and the political issues is essential, and that they're willing 400 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 3: to basically say goodbye to our democracy, and I don't 401 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 3: want to say good about our democracy. I kind of 402 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 3: like it here. I like all these arguments, and I 403 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 3: like uncertainties, and I like fights, you know, in a 404 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 3: good sense. 405 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: And even finding common ground to compromise to find solutions 406 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:18,680 Speaker 1: for problems. 407 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,120 Speaker 3: You know, I talk to people all the time who 408 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 3: were even people who were big opponents of mine when 409 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 3: I was president, who say, you know, we're actually on 410 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,679 Speaker 3: the verge of using our democracy. Liz Cheney wrote this 411 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 3: new book you know about it. I understand how a 412 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 3: lot of people don't believe that or can't believe that, 413 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,160 Speaker 3: and they have so much to do every week to 414 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 3: pay their bills, keep body and soul together, think about 415 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 3: the things their kids needs. I understand that. But we 416 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 3: literally have a chance to lose the democratic wealth life 417 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 3: we have been trying to perfect over two hundred years. 418 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 3: And it's not just majority rule, it's also minority rights, 419 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 3: rule of law, individual rights, restraints on what government can 420 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 3: and can't do, And so I think that's important. I 421 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 3: agree there are imminent challenges that we have to address, 422 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 3: but it's interesting almost every problem we've got, let's take immigration. 423 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,919 Speaker 3: This is actually a huge opportunity if we did like 424 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:26,639 Speaker 3: Canada does, for example, if people had to sponsor immigrants, 425 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,360 Speaker 3: not take financial responsibility for them, but you know, set 426 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,160 Speaker 3: up centers where they could work. What happens is only 427 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 3: the places in Canada where people want immigrants get immigrants, 428 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 3: and they're filling labor holes all the time that need 429 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 3: to be filled. I mean, look at America has got 430 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 3: a negative birth rate. There are places in this country 431 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 3: that have huge shortages of workers, and most of these 432 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 3: folks are just asking for a chance to work. I 433 00:26:56,040 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 3: mean that's just one example. So if we were tactical 434 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,879 Speaker 3: instead of ideological, if we were just sitting down from 435 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 3: opposite points of view to solve problems, I think most 436 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,239 Speaker 3: of this stuff could be a lot better. You know, 437 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,119 Speaker 3: George Bush and I do this leadership program together and 438 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,680 Speaker 3: it's about half Republican, half Democrat. We get together and 439 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,359 Speaker 3: meet with them and they try to solve problems together. 440 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 2: These are mid career people. 441 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, they're mid career people basically from twenty eight to 442 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 3: forty two more or less. And the only requirement for 443 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 3: getting in our program is you have to have something 444 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:33,919 Speaker 3: to do that you do besides your day job, you 445 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,880 Speaker 3: have to have some interest in something else. And it's 446 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 3: been a joy because they go to his library in 447 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:41,920 Speaker 3: mine and we meet with them, and they go to 448 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 3: the LBJ library and his father's library, and they learn 449 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 3: how other people dealt with problems, and then they agree 450 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,680 Speaker 3: to work on certain problems. Once they agree to work 451 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 3: on a problem, more than seventy percent of the time 452 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,080 Speaker 3: they reach a consensus about what to do about it. 453 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,920 Speaker 3: It's fascinating. So he and I have had a good time, 454 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 3: but we have about decided we're troglodites were the We 455 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 3: are the dinosaurs of the current age. Maybe because everything 456 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,360 Speaker 3: now is supposed to be a continuous fight and it's 457 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 3: highly lucrative for the media, but it's a lousy way to. 458 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:19,119 Speaker 2: Run a railroad, you know. 459 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,400 Speaker 1: As I said, we have carried on a conversation now 460 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,879 Speaker 1: for more than fifty years, and you know, part of 461 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:31,400 Speaker 1: I think the real core of our relationships, our marriage 462 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 1: has been we started a conversation and we never stopped, 463 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: through good times and hard times, through happy times and 464 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: sad times. It doesn't mean we don't get frustrated and 465 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: upset with the other, because that's human nature, but we 466 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:49,479 Speaker 1: always kept talking. You know, I'm not giving relationship advice. 467 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 1: Everybody has to find their own way. But I think 468 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: our ability to keep talking is one of the reasons 469 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 1: why we're still sitting here together. 470 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, I did too, I think you know, we've just 471 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,719 Speaker 3: came home from going to that cop and she got 472 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 3: a little sick on the trip. She hadn't been home 473 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 3: two minutes before. I knew what was wrong, what was 474 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 3: right after she was feeling. That happens if you invest 475 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 3: time in somebody over a long time, and we can 476 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 3: talk a lot about how people have to talk about everything. 477 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 3: I think one of the gifts you get from investing 478 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 3: time in somebody over a long time is what you 479 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 3: don't have to say what you see and know without 480 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 3: anybody saying something. 481 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 1: You know. 482 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 3: There is no perfect handbook for life. You have to 483 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 3: figure it out as you go along. And you've always 484 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 3: got to decide whether whatever commitment you make in whatever 485 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 3: way or fulfilling that the bonds of love and the 486 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 3: benefits of love outweigh the burdens and the frustrations. And 487 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 3: that's a decision nobody can make for you. But we 488 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 3: do know that people in general are social animals. That's 489 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 3: why I think all this hate based politics they so 490 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 3: bad for us. So you know, the idea that our 491 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 3: differences are so much more important than what we have 492 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 3: in common. And you know, I may sound Pollyanna, but 493 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 3: I've lived for this for a long time and buy this. 494 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 3: And I have always believed that we should keep trying 495 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 3: to understand one another and keep reaching out to each other. 496 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 3: And I believe that whether it starts with Hillary and 497 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 3: me or anybody else's family, or the children or grandchildren 498 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 3: we have, it's a gift to be alive. It carries burdens, 499 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 3: it carries challenges, but I think just remembering that is important. 500 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 3: We should just never take it for granted, never take 501 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 3: it for granted. And I'm actually pretty optimistic, I always 502 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 3: have been, but I have been very worried at this 503 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 3: moment in history that our capacity city to grow and 504 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 3: cooperation and understanding is a little bit under out. 505 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,479 Speaker 1: I want to end Bill by telling our listeners that you, 506 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 1: I believe are Santa's Chief Elf. I have never met 507 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 1: anybody who loves Christmas as much as you do. Literally, 508 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 1: from the moment we started dating, I realized you were 509 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 1: totally consumed by Christmas. By the decorating, the gift giving, 510 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: the tree trimming, the church services, everything about Christmas. And 511 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 1: I know that, you know, while I was in Dubai 512 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 1: at the Climate conference, you were putting ornaments on the 513 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 1: tree and you know, starting to decorate the house, which 514 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 1: I thank you for very much. You know, but I 515 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 1: think of your fundamentally optimistic and hopeful spirit as really 516 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 1: reaching a christ Shindo every year around Christmas. And you 517 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 1: know we now have our three grandchildren who make you know, 518 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 1: Christmas so meaningful to us. And what are some of 519 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 1: your favorite things to do during Christmas and your you 520 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 1: know love of this season and what it represents. 521 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 3: Well, it is true I am the ultimate Christmas Elf. 522 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 3: Even when I was in the White House, I wrapped 523 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 3: my own Christmas present, and I didn't do it for 524 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 3: brownie points. I did it because I like it and 525 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 3: because I think it put me in the right humor. 526 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 3: The whole idea of the fundamental gifts of life and 527 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 3: making new beginning and thinking of other people and loving 528 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 3: them as yourselves and trying to do that that's always 529 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 3: been important to me. Last night I put the ornaments 530 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 3: on our Christmas tree, and I admit the older I 531 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 3: get the fewer I put out used to be the 532 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 3: tree was about to teeth over every time, because I mean, 533 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 3: we've been married a long time and I have a 534 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 3: couple of ornaments to go back to before we got married. 535 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 4: So and you always know if we didn't bring all 536 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 4: the boxes up, because you always say to me, well, 537 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 4: where was that ornament, you know, the one that we 538 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,000 Speaker 4: got when Chelsea was born or whatever the you know, 539 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 4: the provenance might be. 540 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:21,480 Speaker 3: But anyway, I think it's a good thing for people 541 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,959 Speaker 3: to be grateful for their blessings and to count them 542 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 3: and to recognize that most people, no matter how difficult 543 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 3: life is for them, can always think of somebody who's 544 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 3: worse off and in greater need, and therefore we should 545 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 3: try to lift them up. I also love being with 546 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 3: our grandchildren Christmas time. I love going to their Christmas pageants. 547 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 3: I love going to the church pageants. I love going 548 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 3: to see the rockets at Radio City, and I guess 549 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,800 Speaker 3: we'll go to the train show with the Botanical Garden. 550 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 3: For it's all over being a great parent at Christmas. 551 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 3: If you live in and around New York, it's pretty 552 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 3: fun because there's so many things for your grandchildren to 553 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 3: go gaga over. 554 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 1: I love them well. We want to wish everyone a 555 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:17,399 Speaker 1: really really happy holiday season. Happy Hanukkah to everyone out 556 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,440 Speaker 1: there who is lighting candles trying to bring some light 557 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 1: into the dark. Merry Christmas to everyone out there who 558 00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:27,760 Speaker 1: is getting ready to celebrate Christmas, and particularly a happy, 559 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,520 Speaker 1: healthy and peaceful New Year. 560 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,839 Speaker 2: I still believe in a place called hope. 561 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:39,759 Speaker 3: Yes for the monotheist there is where I think somehow 562 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:45,360 Speaker 3: the Muslims and the Christians and the Jews can, will, 563 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,960 Speaker 3: and must be reconciled. This is a dumb way to 564 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 3: live life, killing other people and stopping young people from 565 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 3: reaching their potential. But we can't get through it without 566 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,239 Speaker 3: understanding where we've been and what's going on here. So 567 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 3: I appreciate your show and what you're trying to do 568 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:06,959 Speaker 3: to tell people what's going on here. 569 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 2: That's our goal. 570 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 3: Happy to your folks. 571 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:16,440 Speaker 2: That's it for this season. 572 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:20,240 Speaker 1: I'll be back soon, but in the meantime, check out 573 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:25,279 Speaker 1: our archive of episodes and here's to health, happiness, and 574 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 1: peace in twenty twenty four. You and Me Both is 575 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:36,000 Speaker 1: brought to you by iHeart Podcasts. We're produced by Julie Subren, 576 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 1: Kathleen Russo and Rob Russo, with help from Huma Abadeen, 577 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:48,040 Speaker 1: Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Sarah Horowitz, Laura Olin, Lona Valmorro, 578 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:53,319 Speaker 1: and Lily Weber. Our engineer is Zach McNeice, and the 579 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 1: original music is by Forrest Gray. If you like you 580 00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 1: and me both, tell someone else about it. And if 581 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,480 Speaker 1: you're not already a subscriber, what are you waiting for? 582 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,640 Speaker 1: You can subscribe to you and me both on the 583 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:11,719 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 584 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:13,200 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.