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Speaker 1: On July twenty fifth, nineteen ninety, a man named Curtis

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Speaker 1: Durden was with three friends in front of his apartment

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Speaker 1: building in Oakland, California, when armed men approached demanding money.

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Speaker 1: Despite the victim's compliance, the assailants pistol whipped one man

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Speaker 1: and fatally shot Curtis Durton before fleeing the scene. The

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Speaker 1: police quickly found seventeen year old Jerome Dixon about a

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Speaker 1: block and a half away in the street, flagging down

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Speaker 1: a ride. When brought to the scene to be identified

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Speaker 1: by the victims, none of them recognized Jerome. Nevertheless, after

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Speaker 1: a lengthy interrogation, he admitted to being one of the assailants.

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Speaker 1: What would be stronger evidence in the mind of a jury,

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Speaker 1: eyewitness testimony or a confession. Jerome's attorney advised him to

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Speaker 1: be smart and take a plea deal. But this is

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Speaker 1: wrawful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction where today we

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Speaker 1: have a juvenile false confession case. And you know it

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Speaker 1: hurts my heart to number of these that we've seen before.

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Speaker 1: So many names come to mind, Thomas Cogdell, Sean Tyler,

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Speaker 1: Marcus Wiggins, the West Memphis three. The list is too

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Speaker 1: long and too tragic to complete. And you can hear

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Speaker 1: these type of stories, so many more of them, every

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Speaker 1: one of them different, every one of them insane, but

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Speaker 1: all involving false confessions. On our show at lead titled

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Speaker 1: wrongful Conviction, False Confessions, it's going to be linked at

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Speaker 1: our bio. And this story is no less terrifying than

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Speaker 1: any of those. But our guest today, Jerome Dixon, Well

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Speaker 1: he's come out the other side, survived an unbelievable ordeal,

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Speaker 1: and he's come out thriving. And Jerome, we're happy and

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Speaker 1: honored to have you here.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you for having me and.

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Speaker 1: With him, civil rights attorney at PC but Narsky and

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Speaker 1: lit Ben Shaw. Ben, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Thanks so much for having us.

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Speaker 1: Now, this happened in Oakland, California, right.

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Speaker 2: That is correct, Oakland, California.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us a bit about growing up there? Sure?

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Speaker 2: I come from a big family. There's eight in all,

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Speaker 2: six sisters, one brother, and I'm the baby with the

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Speaker 2: twin sister. I came up in the air when mc

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Speaker 2: hammer was topping the charts. I dressed like EMC Hammer.

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Speaker 2: My hairstyle was like EMC Hammer. I remember having a

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Speaker 2: honey blonde gummay cut with a streak that just went

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Speaker 2: from the tip of my forehead to the back. And

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Speaker 2: I just knew that I was the man. I was little,

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Speaker 2: mister mc hammer.

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Speaker 1: So forgive me in advance. But is it safe to

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Speaker 1: say that you were too legit to quit?

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Speaker 2: Too legit to quit?

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Speaker 1: But all jokes aside, though the emc hammer you're also

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Speaker 1: coincided with the era of the epidemic, and this was

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Speaker 1: the late eighties into the early nineties.

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Speaker 2: Correct in retrospect, I saw the devastation of a lot

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Speaker 2: of communities, people of color. Crack was just taking its

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Speaker 2: toll on a lot of families in so many dire ways.

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Speaker 1: And Oakland was no stranger to that devastation and the

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Speaker 1: heavy handed policing that came with the crack era.

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Speaker 2: It was not a good atmosphere for people of color.

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Speaker 2: You were always targeted and it was just a bad

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Speaker 2: environment in all law enforcement where they were not friends.

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Speaker 1: Right, And so that's the backdrop, right. This was the

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Speaker 1: summer of nineteen nineties, July twenty fifth, to be exactly.

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Speaker 1: And the victim in this case, Curtis Durton, was hanging

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Speaker 1: out in front of his apartment building with his friend

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Speaker 1: Jeff Simmons, and two young women and armed men approached them. Now, Ben,

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Speaker 1: what can you tell us about the crime itself.

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Speaker 3: It was basically a robbery as best we could tell,

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Speaker 3: where a few young men sort of come up up,

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Speaker 3: they demand that everybody get down on the ground. Two

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Speaker 3: of the young women who were there kind of take

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Speaker 3: off and go running into the apartment complex. One young

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Speaker 3: man hands over his money, and during the course of

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Speaker 3: the robbery, the other young man is killed. He's shot

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Speaker 3: and killed, and the assailants sort of take off and

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Speaker 3: get into a car and drive away.

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Speaker 1: So Curtis Durton was fatally shot, and I understand that

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Speaker 1: one of the assailants pistol whip the guy who survived,

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Speaker 1: Jeff Simmons.

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Speaker 3: That's right. And because of sort of the environment in

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Speaker 3: the neighborhood, the police just make an assumption that this

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Speaker 3: is part of a drug turf war, regardless of the

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Speaker 3: fact that this is not somebody who's dealing drugs, and

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Speaker 3: there's no factual grounding for this assumption.

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Speaker 1: Now, Jerome, you were in front of your friend Kevin's

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Speaker 1: apartment building about a football fields length away from where

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Speaker 1: this crime occurred right a block and a half away.

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Speaker 1: Did you hear the gunshot?

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Speaker 2: It was close enough to hear, but again, you hear

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Speaker 2: gunshots in the area all the time, so you don't

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Speaker 2: even give a second thought to it. And you know again.

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Speaker 2: I was at my friends Kevin's house. We'd been hanging

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Speaker 2: out all morning into the night, and I had made

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Speaker 2: arrangements for my friend Randy to come back to the

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Speaker 2: apartment complex to pick me up to take me home

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Speaker 2: since that was on his way home. And as I

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Speaker 2: was sitting in the parking lot with my friends Kai

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Speaker 2: and Harvey, I was sitting in the backseat of the

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Speaker 2: car and I saw Randy drive by, and I got

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Speaker 2: out of the car and ran into the middle of

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Speaker 2: the street to flag him down. And as I am

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Speaker 2: in the middle of the street flagging Randy down, the

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Speaker 2: patrol car is coming down the avenue thirty eighth Avenue,

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Speaker 2: and he asked me what I was doing, and I said,

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to flag down my friend Randy, who is

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Speaker 2: right down there. The patrol officer stopped the car, put

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Speaker 2: me in the back of the patrol car, and drove

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Speaker 2: me to the crime scene, which was probably about a

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Speaker 2: block and a half away.

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Speaker 1: Now they were looking for someone in a puppy jacket

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Speaker 1: and denim jeans. There was a description of the suspect

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Speaker 1: as well, did any of it match Jerome?

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Speaker 3: The person that the police believe Jerome is in this

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Speaker 3: group is described as being in his early to mid twenties,

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Speaker 3: about five six to five eight and stocky, and Jerome,

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Speaker 3: of course at the time, is seventeen, well over six

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Speaker 3: feet tall and very slim. And yeah, he's wearing you know,

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Speaker 3: sweatpants and this letterman's jacket. So he's also not matching

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Speaker 3: the description of the clothing. And not only does nothing

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Speaker 3: sort of stick out about Jerome, he's picked up on

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Speaker 3: thirty eighth Avenue in the opposite sort of direction from

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Speaker 3: the crime scene that witnesses described the perpetrators fleeing.

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Speaker 1: So Jerome didn't match the description. Was found in the

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Speaker 1: wrong direction without a weapon. And I'd like our audience

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Speaker 1: to take a second and imagine you're imagining your seventeen

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Speaker 1: year old self just waiting on a ride from a

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Speaker 1: friend to continue on with whatever the night had in

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Speaker 1: store for you, and you're basically kidnapped by people with

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Speaker 1: guns and badges.

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Speaker 2: I was kidnapped by law enforcement, and as I was

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Speaker 2: driven to the crime scene, still in the back of

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Speaker 2: the patrol car, I was met by another patrol officer.

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Speaker 2: He basically said, you know, I had a lot of

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Speaker 2: explaining to do about that dead body, and I could

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Speaker 2: see that there was a body laying on the ground

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Speaker 2: with a white sheet over it. And I had told

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Speaker 2: the officer exactly what I was doing, where I was at,

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Speaker 2: and how my friends are still there right up the

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Speaker 2: street right.

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Speaker 1: This shooting had just happened. Not only were your alibi

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Speaker 1: witnesses right up the street, but the robbery victims were

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Speaker 1: right there next to the I recently deceased.

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Speaker 3: Friend, and a police officer shines a light through the

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Speaker 3: window of a police car and asks the eyewitnesses if

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Speaker 3: they can identify Jerome as being one of the group

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Speaker 3: of young men that had committed this robbery. And despite

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Speaker 3: how suggestive that identification procedure is, none of them identified

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Speaker 3: Jerome as being among the group that they committed this

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Speaker 3: robbery and murder man.

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Speaker 1: We've seen that suggestive tactic go the way it was

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Speaker 1: intended to go before, but it didn't work. Jerome was

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Speaker 1: not identified, So this madness should have ended right then.

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Speaker 1: And there, but as we know, it didn't.

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Speaker 2: From there, I was taken to the police station downtown

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Speaker 2: and they began to question me about the crime, and

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Speaker 2: I was truthful with the officers. I told him exactly

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Speaker 2: what I was doing, where I was at, and who

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Speaker 2: I was with. But that wasn't enough, and I remained

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Speaker 2: there for twenty five hours. Well the first seven hours

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Speaker 2: of the interrogation, I really thought that they were on

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Speaker 2: my side, that they were seen where I was at

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Speaker 2: with this incident, but their whole demeanor changed.

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Speaker 1: And let's not forget you're seventeen years old, just a kid.

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Speaker 1: Did your mother know where you were at this time?

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Speaker 2: During that time? My mother thought that I was by

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Speaker 2: my friend Kevin's apartment, but I was actually downtown being

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Speaker 2: questioned by investigating officers about a murder that I had

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Speaker 2: no knowledge thereof.

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Speaker 1: And at some point that morning, the interview transitioned from

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Speaker 1: uniformed officers to detectives, Sergeants Roth and Paniagua, who began

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Speaker 1: to apply more pressure, saying that Jerome story, that your

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Speaker 1: story wasn't adding up.

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Speaker 2: And when they asked me if I I wanted to

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Speaker 2: take a polygraph examination, I was like, yes, let's do it.

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Speaker 2: I have nothing to hide. As they gave me the polygraph,

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Speaker 2: they said that I had failed the examination.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, big shocker there. I could have told you they

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Speaker 1: were going to say that. I mean, they used to

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Speaker 1: do it every day, all day when polygraphs were still

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Speaker 1: admissible as evidence. They'd give you the test, they tell

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Speaker 1: you that you failed, and then they'd hope that that

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Speaker 1: would be one of the things that would help to

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Speaker 1: chip away at your resolve.

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Speaker 2: And they're questioning became a lot more harsh. But they

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Speaker 2: were telling me things like, you know what they do

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Speaker 2: to little kids like you. You're not telling the truth. We

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Speaker 2: have witnesses that could put you at the crime scene.

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Speaker 3: Everything that Jerome is describing is consistent with the factors

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Speaker 3: that we know can produce false confessions. Jerome is deprived

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Speaker 3: of sleep. They're using false and exaggerated evidence ploise, both

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Speaker 3: in terms of telling him that other people are placing

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Speaker 3: him at the scene when he wasn't there and could

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Speaker 3: be identified even through the incredibly coercive show up that

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Speaker 3: they did through the police car window, but they're also

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Speaker 3: telling him that he failed a polygraph. The detectives are

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Speaker 3: using the read method, which as your listeners are familiar

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Speaker 3: with is just a guilt presumptive form of interrogation.

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Speaker 1: The read technique is an interrogation method that was developed

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties by a Chicago Police Department polygraph

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Speaker 1: examiner named John E. Reid, and the method begins by

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Speaker 1: sharing alleged details of the investigation that point to the

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Speaker 1: suspect's guilt. This is called an evidence ploy and can

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Speaker 1: legally be a blatant falsehood still in forty seven states,

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Speaker 1: by the way, to this day. For example, they could

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Speaker 1: say we found your DNA at the crime scene, whether

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Speaker 1: it's true or not. In this case, they told Jerome

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Speaker 1: that he had failed a polygraph.

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Speaker 3: A polygraph is a police created instrument that can't actually

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Speaker 3: tell if somebody is telling the truth. I mean, this

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Speaker 3: is described to Jerome as something that will tell you

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Speaker 3: if you're telling the truth or not. But it's actually

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Speaker 3: an inherent fall sevenis boy because it's not capable of

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Speaker 3: spitting out reliable information.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a cudgel.

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Speaker 2: Exactly when they told me that I failed, like I

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Speaker 2: I was just empty inside. I didn't know what else

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Speaker 2: to do.

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Speaker 1: Once sharing this alleged detail, the investigation creates a high

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Speaker 1: pressure situation for the suspect, the read technique continues, where

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Speaker 1: the interrogator offers socially acceptable justifications for the suspect's alleged behavior,

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Speaker 1: followed by an offer of leniency. If the suspect confesses.

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Speaker 3: The police say, Okay, we know you didn't pull the trigger,

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Speaker 3: but we know that you're there now. Legally, there's no

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Speaker 3: difference between being there at the scene of murder and

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Speaker 3: participating or pulling the trigger right.

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Speaker 1: Right in many states, California being one of them. In

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Speaker 1: the commission of a felony, for example, a robbery, if

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Speaker 1: someone dies, then everyone who participate paid it in that

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Speaker 1: robbery can be prosecuted for murder, even if the person

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Speaker 1: was killed by the police exactly.

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Speaker 3: Again, that's a technique of minimization. They also made him

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Speaker 3: feel like he could leave as soon as he told

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Speaker 3: them what they wanted to know. And so it's this

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Speaker 3: implicit threat of we're gonna hold you here forever until

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Speaker 3: we get what we want.

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Speaker 2: Going into that twenty fourth hour, that twenty fifth hour,

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Speaker 2: I was becoming nothing more but this empty shell of

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Speaker 2: a child, and I didn't know what else to do.

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Speaker 2: But they were telling me, you're not telling the truth,

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Speaker 2: You're a liar. It made me feel like maybe I'm

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Speaker 2: not telling the truth. They got so deep into my

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Speaker 2: mind where I started to believe the opposite.

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Speaker 1: There are three types of false confessions, voluntary, compliant, and persuaded.

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Speaker 1: This sounds a lot like the latter, where after a lengthy,

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Speaker 1: exhausting interrogation, the subject may actually begin to believe in

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Speaker 1: their own guilt. For example, an interrogator might say, maybe

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Speaker 1: your actions were so hateous that you simply blocked them out.

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Speaker 1: Do you think you know you run a blackout or something?

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Speaker 1: Do you think that's possible? And then if the subject

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Speaker 1: entertains that thought, that can be perceived as an admission

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Speaker 1: of guilt.

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Speaker 2: In those final hours, I remember them getting so deep

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Speaker 2: into my head to where I felt like I was hopeless,

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Speaker 2: And I remember I put my head on the table

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Speaker 2: and I raised my head and I was like, whatever

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Speaker 2: you guys want to know, I'll tell you. And at

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Speaker 2: that point the investigating officer he slammed his hands on

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Speaker 2: the table and said, finally we're going to get somewhere.

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Speaker 1: This episode is sponsored by marshmallo in the world's leading

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Speaker 1: professional services firm in the areas of Risk Strategy and People.

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Speaker 1: It's Legal and Compliance Department provides pro bono legal assistance

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Speaker 1: and other support to underrepresented communities and individuals.

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Speaker 3: The police have this idea that there's a turf war

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Speaker 3: between these rifle gangs who are selling drugs, despite the

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Speaker 3: fact that according to all the eyewitnesses, nobody involved as

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Speaker 3: selling drugs. The victim didn't sell drugs. This was a

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Speaker 3: group of people who are just hanging out in front

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Speaker 3: of their apartment building. But the police have this idea

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Speaker 3: that there had been disagreements over whose turf people were

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Speaker 3: selling drugs on and that Jerome got everyone together, they

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Speaker 3: get guns, they go over and they basically exact this

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Speaker 3: retribution that they tell people to give up the cash

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Speaker 3: and give up the drugs.

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Speaker 2: They painted a scenario they believed happened, and they fed

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Speaker 2: that information to me, and they said, why don't you

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Speaker 2: put yourself into that equation. And that equation was I had.

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Speaker 3: A UZI man that somebody he's with shoots the victim

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Speaker 3: with a sawt off shotgun, and then after that, Jerome

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Speaker 3: fires this gun in the air and then they take off.

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Speaker 2: I had incorporated into my statement that after I heard

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Speaker 2: the gun shot and fired the UZI I ran to

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Speaker 2: the upward part of the block where I was detained at.

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Speaker 2: I told them, in the process of running to that area,

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Speaker 2: I jumped over a fence and ran into a creek

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Speaker 2: area and that's where I left the gun at. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: none of that was true.

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Speaker 3: No gun was ever recovered. There's no physical, forensic, or

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Speaker 3: circumstantial evidence that's recovered that connects with Jerome in any way.

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Speaker 2: But in my mind, I was like, if I tell

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Speaker 2: them what they wanted to hear, I probably can go home.

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Speaker 2: I probably can get out of this situation.

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Speaker 3: But that was not the truth, and they sort of

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Speaker 3: get him to put himself in the equation. They get

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Speaker 3: this false confession. Then at eleven forty eight PM, a

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Speaker 3: deputy DA comes in and they do like a full

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Speaker 3: taped one that we have a transcript of. When it's

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Speaker 3: like many of the false confessions that you see, where

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Speaker 3: this district attorney is speaking in full paragraphs about what happened,

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Speaker 3: and then Jerome saying like yes, and then it's like

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Speaker 3: another full paragraph yes.

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Speaker 1: Now, the hallmark of most false confessions is that while

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Speaker 1: there'll be some truthful information there, that the statements also

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Speaker 1: end up being inconsistent with the facts of the crime.

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Speaker 1: Besides this crime not being part of a drug turf war,

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Speaker 1: what else stood out about this particular false confession.

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Speaker 3: The narrative that the police had come up with was

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Speaker 3: that they were going to take retribution on a guy

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Speaker 3: named Phil But according to eyewitnesses who actually knew this person,

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Speaker 3: he wasn't there. And when Jerome is giving this confession,

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Speaker 3: he's repeatedly talking about him being there, but then later says, oh, well,

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Speaker 3: maybe he wasn't there. In this confession, he's talking about, well,

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Speaker 3: there are three women and three or four men, but

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Speaker 3: actually there are two men and two women there. At

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Speaker 3: one point he talks about pointing an uzi at one

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Speaker 3: of the young men who's there. Well, that person gave

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Speaker 3: money to somebody with a Tech nine that's also pointed

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Speaker 3: at him. But the eyewitness only describes being robbed by

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Speaker 3: somebody with an uzi and he says he was hit

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Speaker 3: with an uzi on the head, But the police scripted

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Speaker 3: confession doesn't mention that. It also talks about Jerome firing

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Speaker 3: an uzi in the air to scare off witnesses, but

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Speaker 3: not a single eyewitness to this mentioned that at all.

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Speaker 3: And then Jerome also describes throwing this weapon down as

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Speaker 3: he ran away, but no gun was ever recovered.

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Speaker 1: So they got the number of people wrong for starters

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Speaker 1: six or seven instead of four. Not a little wrong,

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Speaker 1: a lot rob Then the police included both a person

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Speaker 1: who wasn't there named Phil, as well as a non

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Speaker 1: existent weapon, the Tech nine, But then they forgot to

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Speaker 1: include the pistol whipping with the Uzi. Followed by making

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Speaker 1: up the whole thing about the Uzi being fired into

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Speaker 1: the air, and they conjured up this entire story, compounding

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Speaker 1: the tragedy of an actual murder by victimizing Jerome and

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Speaker 1: literally taking his life away, and he was just a

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Speaker 1: seventeen year old kid.

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Speaker 2: At the end of this questioning, I finally was allowed

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Speaker 2: to call my mom home. And when I did finally

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Speaker 2: get that call, I said, Mom, they have me downtown

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Speaker 2: for murder. And my mother was in disbelief, and I

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Speaker 2: remember hearing on the phone. She said to my sister,

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Speaker 2: I know this voice on the other line, but this

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Speaker 2: is not Jerome. She handed the phone to my sister

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Speaker 2: and said, find out who this is. This does not

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Speaker 2: sound like Jerome. My sister Leah picked the phone up

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Speaker 2: she said, hello, who is this and I said, it's Jerome.

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Speaker 2: They got me downtown for murder. So the initial charges

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Speaker 2: were first degree murder, three counts of robbery, and assault

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Speaker 2: with a deadly weapon. My public defender came to me

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Speaker 2: and said, based on my confession, I have the best

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Speaker 2: deal for you, and that was a six year deal

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Speaker 2: in the California Youth Authority.

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Speaker 1: And in nineteen ninety one at the time that you

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Speaker 1: were being processed, was really essentially a fool's Errand to

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Speaker 1: even try to convince a jury that anybody, under any

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Speaker 1: circumstances would confess to something that they hadn't done, even

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Speaker 1: if your public defender managed to point out all of

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Speaker 1: the wild inconsistencies really between your statement and the facts

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Speaker 1: of the crime.

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Speaker 2: My public defender never suggested that I do go to

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Speaker 2: trial so that all that information could be presented. The

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Speaker 2: conversation from start to finish was I have a guaranteed

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Speaker 2: deal for you, and I'm advising you to take it

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Speaker 2: because you gave a confession, and there's no way that

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Speaker 2: you could win a case based on the confession that

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Speaker 2: you've given. And so my only option, based on what

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Speaker 2: my public defender was telling me was to take this

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Speaker 2: guaranteed six year deal to the California Youth Authority for

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Speaker 2: first degree murder through counts of robbery and assault with

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Speaker 2: a deadly weapon, and that by taking this deal I

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Speaker 2: would be released before my twenty fifth birthday.

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Speaker 1: Considering the alternative, you'd be looking at a life sentence.

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Speaker 1: So six years in juvie or life.

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Speaker 2: Being released before my twenty fifth birthday was was insight.

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Speaker 2: It was in my vision, and again I believed that

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Speaker 2: what my public defender was telling me was the best call,

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Speaker 2: and so I took the deal.

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Speaker 3: And just to sort of provide context, just because it's

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Speaker 3: so bizarre, at the proceeding where you know, Jerome first

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Speaker 3: enters into this agreement, the judge says, all right, so

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Speaker 3: you'll go to the California Youth Authority. You'll be there

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Speaker 3: until you're twenty five, and then you'll be released. This

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Speaker 3: is assuming that the California Youth Authority accepts you. Given

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Speaker 3: the reports that I've seen, I believe that they will.

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Speaker 3: And so there's a body, the Youthful Funder Parole Board,

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Speaker 3: who determines whether or not somebody is eligible to be

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Speaker 3: at the CYA. The board flat out rejects Jerome because

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Speaker 3: of the circumstances of the crime.

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Speaker 2: And so six months into that deal, I was brought

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Speaker 2: back to court it was vacated, at which point I

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Speaker 2: was told that the District Attorney's office felt like I

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Speaker 2: should cooperate with the office by giving up the names

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Speaker 2: of the individuals that were involved in this crime. And

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Speaker 2: by not giving up the names, I would go to

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Speaker 2: trial and I would receive the mach sentence of fifty

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Speaker 2: years to life in prison. But if I don't go

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Speaker 2: to trial, I could plead to a lesser and receive

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Speaker 2: rather than fifty years, I could receive an eighteen year

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Speaker 2: to life sentence. And I didn't have names. I never did,

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Speaker 2: And so the next phase was to vacate the original

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Speaker 2: sentence and plead to the lesser charge, which would be

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Speaker 2: second degree murder.

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Speaker 1: And so, after having taken the original deal for six years,

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Speaker 1: in Julie, that would be a hard thing for anyone

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Speaker 1: to swallow as an innocent person, since you had already

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Speaker 1: pleaded guilty. Though then you were faced with a choice

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Speaker 1: between fifty to life or eighteen to life. You know, my.

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Speaker 2: Faith in God was shattered. I didn't believe that there

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Speaker 2: was a god. What kind of god would put a

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Speaker 2: child through something like this. I couldn't believe that this

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Speaker 2: was happening to me. There was no one in authority

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Speaker 2: that stood up to the plate and said, wait a minute,

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Speaker 2: something is not right here. It was the summer of

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety six that I was transferred from the Youth

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Speaker 2: Authority to the Department of Corrections prison. In the Youth Authority,

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Speaker 2: the mindset is different. It's about rehabilitation therapy. When you

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Speaker 2: get to prison, it's none of that. It's a dark

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Speaker 2: world and I had to grow up really quick. And

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Speaker 2: I remember when I first hit the prison yard. I

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Speaker 2: was met by an individual and he said to me, youngster,

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Speaker 2: if you want to survive, there's three things that you

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Speaker 2: should do. Don't fuck with punks, don't gamble, and don't

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Speaker 2: click up. I e being a gang member. He said,

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Speaker 2: if you take those three things, you survived this madness.

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Speaker 2: That's all he said. And for twenty one years I

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Speaker 2: never clicked up, didn't mess with punks. And it was

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Speaker 2: difficult because I was ostracized in so many different ways.

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Speaker 2: I had a mark on my biack because I wasn't

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Speaker 2: part of a gang. I didn't click up. The only

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Speaker 2: neutral zone save zone that I could exist on was

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Speaker 2: the track, so I ran four hours a day. Every

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Speaker 2: time they opened the yard, I would just go to

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Speaker 2: the yard and run.

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Speaker 1: I guess you can't get dragged into any more drama

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Speaker 1: if you're just running and don't engage with anyone.

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Speaker 2: Or you could try running with me and try to

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Speaker 2: have a conversation, but that that wasn't gonna happen. For

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Speaker 2: the first couple of years that I was incarcerated, I

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Speaker 2: was in a dark place where I just wouldn't say

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Speaker 2: anything to anybody. The last thing that I wanted to

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Speaker 2: do was be judged again and again, especially for a

438
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 2: crime I didn't do. I didn't want to be mocked

439
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,439
Speaker 2: and scorned by my peers. When they asked me what

440
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 2: I was in there for, I would say, I'm in

441
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 2: here for murder. Some of the things that I did

442
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 2: in prison for starters. I always use this analogy, how

443
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,720
Speaker 2: did I stay sane going through all of that? And

444
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 2: if I could paint the picture of you holding a

445
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 2: live grenade, it would be just imagine your eighteenth birthday,

446
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 2: all the milestones, your twenty first, twenty fifth, thirtieth, my

447
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:38,440
Speaker 2: nieces and nephew's being born, my siblings being married, my dad,

448
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,440
Speaker 2: even my dad passed away a year to the date

449
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 2: that I came home on. All of this was in

450
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 2: capsualized in this live grenade that I had to hold

451
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 2: on to, and that live grenade represent my sanity, and

452
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,359
Speaker 2: I knew that the moment that I would let that

453
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 2: live grenade go would be the moment I would explode

454
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 2: or implode. While in prison, I also did hospice care.

455
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,360
Speaker 2: That was an eye opening for me. Is to sit

456
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 2: with terminally ill payats just to know these individuals, not

457
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 2: to know them from their criminal past, but just to

458
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,400
Speaker 2: know them as an individual, and they would always give

459
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,399
Speaker 2: me insight. You're young, you have your whole life ahead

460
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 2: of you. Don't make the mistakes like I did. I

461
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,880
Speaker 2: took all of that into consideration. I learned some good

462
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 2: things in prison. I learned some bad things in prison.

463
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 1: What are a few lessons you learned? If you could

464
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 1: tell us pick like the first three to come to mind.

465
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 2: Number one, I would say I had to be honest

466
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:35,359
Speaker 2: with myself in understanding why I confess to a crime

467
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 2: I didn't do. Reliving that episode was very traumatic, but

468
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 2: I had to come to terms with it, and I

469
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 2: had to accept it. With that being said, I had

470
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 2: to talk with that seventeen year old kid, and I

471
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:54,399
Speaker 2: had to become that seventeen year old kid's protector, his man,

472
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 2: and I had to always speak for that seventeen year

473
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 2: old kid because nobody's vote for him. Number Two, I

474
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,719
Speaker 2: had to learn how to respect myself at all times.

475
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,119
Speaker 2: When you respect yourself at all times, the people around

476
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 2: you would see that respect and they would honor that.

477
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,199
Speaker 2: It's not like that for everybody, but it was like

478
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 2: that for me, And I would say. The third thing

479
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 2: would be to honor the people that kept me saying

480
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 2: while I was in there, Ie, my family. My family

481
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 2: was my mainstay from start to finish of my incarceration.

482
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know that support. Not everyone has it, but

483
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 1: it goes a long way if you do. We hear

484
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 1: time and again on the show and even just doing

485
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 1: the work, and I understand that in addition to the

486
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 1: hospice care, which, by the way, my hat's off to you,

487
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 1: but you also finished high school inside behind the bars,

488
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 1: and you did your time get this with zero disciplinary infractions.

489
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 1: It's almost unheard of.

490
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 2: It's hard to do. And you know what I never

491
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 2: wanted to represent where I was at. I didn't want

492
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 2: to become a product of that system. Again, I'm not

493
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 2: speaking for every but I'm only speaking for self. The

494
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 2: last thing that I wanted to do, for example, was

495
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 2: call my mom and say, hey, Mom, guess what, I'm

496
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 2: a gang member now. So yes, it was a fine

497
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 2: line that I had to walk, but it was something

498
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 2: that was necessary for me because I was not a

499
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 2: murderer and I did not want to act like I

500
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 2: was a murderer by being a product of that system.

501
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 2: So I remained disciplinary free for twenty one and a

502
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 2: half years.

503
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 3: I mean, when I got Jerome's c file, which is

504
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 3: the file that they assemble for you in this CDCR.

505
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 3: Normally you go through these files and it's like disciplinary

506
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 3: hearing after disciplinary hearing after disciplinary hearing. And that's because

507
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 3: no matter what your intentions are, and no matter the

508
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 3: level of your self control, it's next to impossible to

509
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 3: spend time in prison, particularly in a maximum security institution. Right,

510
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 3: even if you're not looking for trouble, a lot of

511
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 3: times trouble is going to find you. And so I mean,

512
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 3: it's it's just a testament to the incredible force of

513
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 3: will that Jerome had that he was able to stay

514
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 3: discipline free, and instead it was just like a bunch

515
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 3: of laudatory statements. I mean, I told him when I

516
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 3: first reviewed this, I was like, Jerome, you could take

517
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 3: this CE file and apply to college.

518
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's incredible. And I also understand that the very

519
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 1: little bit of money that you were able to make

520
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 1: in there, because you were making ninety five cents an

521
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 1: hour in the print shop, that you donated to charity.

522
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 2: I just wanted to feel some type of connection to

523
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 2: the real world, and I felt like by donating the

524
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 2: money that I made in there to charitable causes in

525
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 2: society would give me some type of connection to the

526
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 2: free world.

527
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 1: And so while you're in there living this honorable, even

528
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 1: heroic existence, your avenues for relief and post conviction were

529
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 1: not promising at all with the guilty plate. And then

530
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 1: you were repeatedly denied at the parole board in two

531
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 1: thousand and two, two thousand and five, in two thousand.

532
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 2: And eight, initial stance while appearing before the parole board

533
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 2: was I'm not going to talk about the life crime.

534
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 2: If anything, I'll talk about what I've been doing since

535
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 2: I've been incarcerated. And what I plan to do upon

536
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 2: my release, and that was doing more harm than good

537
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 2: because I wasn't providing any insight.

538
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 1: And then at your two thousand and eight hearing, as

539
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: I understand it, you started claiming your actual innocence.

540
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 2: There was a statement that was made by the district

541
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 2: attorney and she basically said that I was taking steps

542
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 2: back because I was saying that I didn't commit the crime.

543
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 2: Fast forward, going into my twenty eleven hearing, I wrote

544
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 2: out a statement explaining how a seventeen year old kid

545
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 2: was put in an adult situation, who was forced to

546
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 2: confess to a crime he didn't do, who was now

547
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 2: a thirty eight year old man fighting for his freedom.

548
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 2: Their response was that they believed my story and they

549
00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 2: gave me a release.

550
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 1: Date, which was October seventeenth, twenty eleven. Tell us about that.

551
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 2: It was very special in so many ways. I didn't

552
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 2: believe that it would happen, but it happened. I was

553
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 2: met by my sisters. I wish my dad would have

554
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 2: been there to see me walk out. All I wanted

555
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 2: him to do was to see me walk out of

556
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 2: there strong and singing. But I made it out with

557
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 2: my sanity that was key was walking out of there

558
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 2: with my sanity. They wrote me off. There were some

559
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 2: that said that I wouldn't make it out alive. I

560
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 2: proved them wrong.

561
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 1: Yes you did. And now you're out on parole and

562
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 1: you were going to be under supervision for another five years,

563
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 1: though with plenty of pitfalls in your path, all sorts

564
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 1: of obstacles and the hoops you had to jump through,

565
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 1: but you didn't let that stop you.

566
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 2: When I first came home, I had a job offer

567
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 2: at a law firm, and I walked into the law

568
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 2: firm my second day home, and I didn't have a

569
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 2: suit and tie, and they purchased me five suits, and

570
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 2: they said that I was required to wear one to

571
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 2: work every day. They said that they opened the office

572
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 2: at nine o'clock. I was there at eight o'clock. And

573
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 2: from there I transitioned to becoming a project manager for

574
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 2: a construction company. I stayed with the construction company for

575
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 2: about eight years, and then I transitioned to becoming an

576
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 2: active member of an organization called the Anti Recitivism Coalition,

577
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 2: which I am now vice chairman of the board. We

578
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 2: do a lot of policy work and advocacy work, which

579
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 2: brought me to this place now of speaking on behalf

580
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 2: of all the children out there who have been duped

581
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 2: into confessions that they didn't do. And so I'm on

582
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 2: a campaign now to get child Miranda rights across the board.

583
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 2: I'm working with two congress personnel, Congressman Tony Cardinas and

584
00:33:55,560 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 2: Representative Sydney cam lagger Dove on federalizing juvenile Miranda rights

585
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 2: across the board.

586
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 1: That's amazing. So this isn't just California, this is federal

587
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 1: juvenile Miranda rights. So what can our audience do to help?

588
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 2: Number One, you can google the Anti Recidivism Coalition and

589
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 2: as well as Congressman Tony Cardinas as well as Representative

590
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 2: Sidney kamlagger Dove to get more information on the Juvenile

591
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:24,799
Speaker 2: Miranda Right bill package.

592
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 1: So we'll have any recidivism dot org as well as

593
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 1: other action steps linked in the bio. Now, before we

594
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:33,280
Speaker 1: go to closing arguments, I've heard you've also gotten married

595
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 1: since you've been out.

596
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,799
Speaker 2: Yeah. I got married to a beautiful wife. Her name

597
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,800
Speaker 2: is Raha. She is the apple of my eye. I'm

598
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 2: just now understanding puppy love. It was something that I

599
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 2: should have taken on when I was fifteen or sixteen.

600
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 2: I waited until I was fifty to understand the philosophy

601
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 2: of love, and it truly is a beautiful experience. We

602
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:01,279
Speaker 2: just purchased a nice home like I couldn't ask for

603
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:03,320
Speaker 2: anything more considering where I came from.

604
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 1: Hell, yeah, thank you. And I want to turn to

605
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 1: Ben because he also has a call to action for

606
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 1: what he's working on now, and there's a number of

607
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 1: us working on this, which is to finally and permanently

608
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 1: clear Jerome's name.

609
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 3: So after wrongful conviction like that, normally you think about

610
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 3: a habeas petition. But since Jerome served his sentence and

611
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 3: wasn't even on parole anymore because it had been terminated

612
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 3: so quickly because he was a mono parole, the best

613
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 3: avenue for doing that would be to seek a gumnatorial

614
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:38,799
Speaker 3: pardon from Gavin Newsom's office. And so we've undertaken an

615
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 3: investigation just going back thirty three years to win this

616
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 3: crime occurred. And we've got a great private investigator who's

617
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:51,879
Speaker 3: gone around and interviewed eyewitnesses, interviewed alibi witnesses, people who

618
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 3: were around the scene of the crime. We have statements

619
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,279
Speaker 3: from all of them. We got doctor Richard Leo, who

620
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 3: was your listeners know, was one of the foremost experts

621
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 3: it's in the field who put together a report about

622
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 3: Jerome's false confession, and he details all of the risk

623
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 3: factors that were present and all the indish of unreliability.

624
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,239
Speaker 3: And so we've sent that to the Governor's office. Now

625
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:15,800
Speaker 3: we're at the point where we're supplementing it with letters,

626
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 3: and so people who know Jerome are writing the governor.

627
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 3: And also just if anyone who's listening to this is moved,

628
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 3: they can do that as well.

629
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 1: All right, well, we're going to add that to the

630
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 1: action steps as well. And now we've come to my

631
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 1: favorite part of the show, where I first of all

632
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 1: get to thank you both for joining us, and Jerome,

633
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 1: thank you again for sharing your incredible story. Your journey

634
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 1: is absolutely amazing. And now I'm going to kick back

635
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:46,359
Speaker 1: in my chair, lit my headphones on, turn my microphone off,

636
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,360
Speaker 1: close my eyes, and just listen to anything else you

637
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 1: feel is left to be said. So let's start off

638
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,919
Speaker 1: with Ben and then Jerome. You take us out into

639
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 1: the sunset.

640
00:36:56,200 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 3: What happened to Jerome was an outrage. It isn't unique.

641
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 3: It's what happens when assumptions about black communities and the

642
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:10,360
Speaker 3: people who live there, combined with the policing that does

643
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 3: nothing to advance public safety and actually affirmatively endangerous people

644
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:17,959
Speaker 3: by taking them away from the people who love them,

645
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 3: in this case, for twenty one years. And so clearing

646
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 3: Jerome's name is important not just because it's the right

647
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 3: thing to do, but also because it'll make him a

648
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 3: more effective advocate in trying to stop this from happening

649
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 3: to other children.

650
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,719
Speaker 2: I have to agree with Ben one hundred percent. My

651
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 2: case is not unique. I am not a unicorn. I

652
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 2: was an individual, one of many who was forced to

653
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 2: confess to a crime that they didn't do, and it

654
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 2: should not have happened and it needs to stop. I

655
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 2: wish I could say that I'm the last of many

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Speaker 2: who has went through something as horrible as confession to

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Speaker 2: a crime that they didn't do. But I'm not. We

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Speaker 2: notice it's going to happen again and again and again,

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Speaker 2: and I want to be made whole. I want my

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Speaker 2: name back, and I need to be cleared from all charges.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen

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00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 1: to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts. One

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00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 1: week early by subscribing to Lava for Good plus on

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our production team Connor Hall,

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Speaker 1: Any Chelsea, and Kathleen Fink, as well as my fellow

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Speaker 1: executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Cliburn. The

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Speaker 1: music in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR

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Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us across

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Speaker 1: all social media platforms at Lava for Good and at

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Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram at

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Speaker 1: It's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is the production of Lava

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Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one