1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 1: I guess we will. Oh yeah, so Will lost his voice, 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 1: but he's waving vigorously at you, and he wants you 3 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: to know that. We are doing a live dating a 4 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: part time genius on July one at four pm in Philly. 5 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: It's actually at the theater that's near and dear to 6 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 1: my heart, the Trocadero, and it's all part of the 7 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,960 Speaker 1: Philly Podcast Festival. In fact, we're doing a double header 8 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:24,279 Speaker 1: with the wonderful guys from Ridiculous History. I'm sure you 9 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 1: know them, Ben and Nol. They are so good. It's 10 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: gonna be really fun and I can't wait to see you. 11 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: So go to Philly podfest dot com pickup tickets, come 12 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:37,559 Speaker 1: meet us. I'd love to hang out anyway. For this 13 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: week's classic episode, we're rewinding back to when we landed 14 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 1: the wonderful Jason Fagoni on the program. He's this incredible 15 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: writer and he has this extraordinary story about a woman 16 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: who broke codes. It's honestly one of my favorite things ever. 17 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: And he was actually living in Philly when we did 18 00:00:53,400 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: this interview, so it ties back perfectly. Enjoy Guess what, Mango? 19 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: What's that? Will? All right? So tell me this doesn't 20 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: sound like a great premise for a movie. About a 21 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:09,480 Speaker 1: century ago, a young woman from a small town in 22 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: Indiana heads off to college to study poetry and philosophy. 23 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: Now she does this against her father's will, by the way, 24 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: So she finishes college travels to Chicago to figure out 25 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 1: what to do with her life. Already following so far, 26 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: because here's where the crazy plot twist comes in. She's 27 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: about to give up, and then she's discovered and hired 28 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: by this really eccentric tycoon, makes a major shift in 29 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: her life and realizes she has this remarkable ability to 30 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: break code. She then goes on to become one of 31 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:40,680 Speaker 1: the greatest code breakers in history, helps the US win 32 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: World War One, helps US defeat the Nazis in World 33 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 1: War Two, and plays a major role in building the 34 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: foundation for the intelligence agencies in the USA today. Boom, 35 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: what do you think about this? I'd watched that movie. Yeah, 36 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: and it should be a movie. But here's the thing, 37 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 1: it's all true, and thanks to the years of research 38 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: and writing by Jason Pagoni, we now have a brilliant book. 39 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 1: It's called The Woman Who Smash Codes, and it tells 40 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: the story of Elizabeth Smith Friedman. I can't stop thinking 41 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 1: about this story, so let's dive in ye day their 42 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:32,520 Speaker 1: podcast listeners, Welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm Will Pearson 43 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: and as always I'm joined by my good friend Mangesh 44 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 1: Ticketer and on the other side of the soundproof glass 45 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 1: obsessing over his new Dacoda ring and what's he doing. 46 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: He's he's like he's communicating with us in some sort 47 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: of new language of signals. He and he's always so impressive. Mango, 48 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 1: that's our that's our friend and producer Tristan McNeil. Now 49 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: today we're talking about one of the most fascinating people 50 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 1: history almost forgot and honestly might have forever had it 51 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: not been for the book we're talking about today. I 52 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 1: know it's it's just this incredible story. And when you 53 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 1: started telling me about it, I'll be honest, I really 54 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 1: didn't think it could be true. I mean, like this 55 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: poet learning code breaking and then taking down Nazis and 56 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 1: gangsters and cracking codes with pretty much this relative ease, 57 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 1: Like it just sounded too good. And especially since you know, 58 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 1: we've done a lot of stories and I've never really 59 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 1: heard of Elizabeth Smith Friedman before. I know it's it's 60 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 1: honestly why I can't stop talking about you really haven't 61 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: stopped talking about it for a while. Well, I'm thrilled 62 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: we finally have the right person on the line to 63 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: talk about this story, and that's the author of The 64 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 1: Woman Who Smashed Codes, Jason Foggoni. So, Jason, welcome to 65 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: Part Time Genius. Hey, thanks, guys, I'm glad to be here. Well, Jason, 66 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 1: I want to jump straight into this this really bizarre 67 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: break that Elizabeth got, you know, becoming a code breaker, 68 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: and of course we want to ask you about how 69 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: you even stumbled into this story. But first, can you 70 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 1: set the scene a little bit and just talk about 71 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 1: what her early life was like before she got this 72 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: big break. Yeah. So it's one of these kind of 73 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: classic Americans els. You have a hundred years ago, a 74 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 1: young woman in her early twenties is bored with her 75 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: life and board with her job. She lives in a 76 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: small town, uh in Midwest, in rural Indiana where she's from. 77 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:16,599 Speaker 1: She's teaching high school and for a bright young woman 78 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifteen, nineteen sixteen, this is kind of the 79 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:23,479 Speaker 1: end of the line right there. There is not really um, 80 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:28,839 Speaker 1: a lot of opportunity beyond teaching school. Elizabeth was extremely intelligent, ambitious, 81 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 1: and brave, and she decided in June nineteen sixteen to 82 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:35,479 Speaker 1: take a risk. She quit her job teaching school and 83 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 1: she moved to the big city, to Chicago, to look 84 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 1: for something more unusual. And that was really all she wanted, 85 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 1: was something a little bit more unusual. That brought her 86 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 1: to a library in Chicago, the Newberry Library that happened 87 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: to have a rare volume of Shakespeare from sixteen twenty 88 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 1: three was the Shakespeare First Staffolio. And she happened to 89 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: love Shakespeare. She had studied Shakespeare in school. She was 90 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 1: a poet by training, literature scholar, and she just kind 91 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:07,359 Speaker 1: of wanted to see this rare book. She she hadn't 92 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 1: had any luck finding a job in Chicago. She spent 93 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:12,040 Speaker 1: about a week, week and a half they're looking for work, 94 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 1: had no luck. She was about ready to go back 95 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: home and move in with her parents back in Indiana, 96 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:20,480 Speaker 1: but she made this one final stop at this library 97 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: to see this Shakespeare book, and she happened to have 98 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,679 Speaker 1: a chance meeting there with an eccentric tycoon named George 99 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 1: Fabian that that ended up transforming her life, but not 100 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 1: just her life. Uh, it ended up changing the shape 101 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 1: of the twentieth century. And to be clear, like she 102 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: hadn't studied any code breaking, right, Like she was um 103 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:42,719 Speaker 1: more a liberal arts type, is that right? Yeah, absolutely 104 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: she was. She was a poet in a literature person. 105 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: So this is one of the surprising things about the story, 106 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: and one of the things that pulled me in from 107 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: the from the first day I began to read her 108 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: letters is that I think we we kind of think 109 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:56,159 Speaker 1: of code breakers as mathematicians. We have this image of 110 00:05:56,200 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: the code breakers as someone like Alan Turning, professional mathematicians, 111 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: math professor. But the fact is code breakers often come 112 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:07,239 Speaker 1: from unusual places because the core thing about code breaking 113 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 1: is it's really about seeing patterns. The code breaking is 114 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 1: the science of solving a secret message without knowing the key. Um. 115 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: It's akin to if you've ever solved the cryptogram and 116 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: the in the puzzle page in the paper. Um. Elizabeth 117 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 1: was doing this at a sort of more sophisticated level 118 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: than than most people. But it's the same principle. You 119 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 1: you you sort of take a block of letters that 120 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: looks like gobbledygook, you chop them into their constituent parts. 121 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 1: You whirl them around, count them and measure them and 122 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:41,159 Speaker 1: rearrange them into their original order. And Elizabeth was a 123 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: genius at seeing patterns. Even though she wasn't mathematically trained, 124 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 1: she she had a genius for seeing patterns, and that 125 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 1: that's one of the things that made her one of 126 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: the one of the most important code breakers of her era. 127 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:57,280 Speaker 1: And before she was doing the code breaking that obviously, 128 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 1: you know, changed the world in many ways. It was 129 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 1: an interesting first project. I mean, can you talk a 130 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:05,159 Speaker 1: little bit about Fabian because he seemed like such a 131 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 1: bizarre character, and the and how this meeting came to be, 132 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: and and and what she was actually asked to do 133 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 1: in her first assignment with him. So Elizabeth went to 134 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: this library, the Newbury Library, to see this rare book 135 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: of Shakespeare, and she having to fall into conversation with 136 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: the librarian there, who saw that she was interested in Shakespeare. 137 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: The librarian comes over and says, you know, it's funny, 138 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: but there's this odd, rich guy who keeps coming to 139 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: the library looking at the same book of Shakespeare. He's 140 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 1: convinced that there are secret messages embedded inside inside this 141 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 1: book that have been planted there by the true author 142 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: of Shakespeare's plays. He thinks that the true author is 143 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 1: actually this guy who is a contemporary of Shakespeare's named 144 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: Francis Bake. So the librarian is telling Elizabeth this, and 145 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: the librarian says, uh, this rich guy, George Fabian. He 146 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 1: says he's been looking for a research assistant. Would you 147 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 1: be interested in something like that? Elisbath says, oh, sure, 148 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 1: you know, maybe possibly. The librarian makes a phone call 149 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 1: to George Fabian. George Fabian ends up coming to the 150 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: library immediately, bringing bringing his chauffeurg limousine. He pulls up 151 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 1: in front of the Newberry Library and this limo and 152 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: he tumbles out of the limousine and Elizabeth Smith looks 153 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 1: at George Fabian for the first time, and what she 154 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: sees is an enormous human being. He is six foot 155 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: for two pounds, big iron gray beard. Uh. He just 156 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: he just sort of stomps towards her. Uh. He has 157 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:34,080 Speaker 1: big red face, and he's sort of full of energy 158 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: and intent, and he's basically towering over her because Elizabeth 159 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: is very petite. She's about five ft three and about 160 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: a hundred and ten pounds um. And he looks at her, 161 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 1: and he says, would you like to come to Riverbank 162 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: and spend the night with me? This is you know, 163 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: this is a completely scandalous question. Uh. You know, Elizabeth 164 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:55,679 Speaker 1: is from this from a fairly devout Quaker family, and 165 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:57,959 Speaker 1: and um, and she doesn't even know what to say 166 00:08:58,000 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 1: to this. She doesn't know what Riverbank is, and so 167 00:08:59,880 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 1: she kind of stammers reply. And she says, well, sir, 168 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: I don't have anything to to sleep in. I don't 169 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: have any of my nightclothes or my or my or 170 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 1: my toiletries or anything like that. And he says, oh, 171 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 1: don't mind that. We'll we'll set you up with all 172 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:13,439 Speaker 1: of that. Come on, and and and this guy, George Fabian, 173 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:16,080 Speaker 1: grabs her by the arm and sort of walks her 174 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 1: out to his limousine and and takes her to the 175 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 1: Chicago and Northwestern train station. And from there, Uh, she 176 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: has brought to this place called river Bank. And what 177 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:30,559 Speaker 1: river Bank is is one of the most bizarre institutions 178 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 1: in America at that time, nineteen sixteen. So George Fabian, 179 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 1: it turns out, is a Chicago textile multimillionaire. He's made 180 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: his fortune by selling different kinds of cloth, and he 181 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 1: has kind of a marketing genius for selling different kinds 182 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:48,679 Speaker 1: of cloth to department stores. Um. Classic kind of self 183 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: made guys. He's a high school dropout. He's not educated, 184 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 1: but he has a lot of money, and he has 185 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 1: kind of the ability in the Gilded Age to build 186 00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: a kingdom around himself and to and to kind of 187 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 1: set the rule is for everybody in his orbit. And um, 188 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 1: he's a lot like someone like Andrew Carnegie or William 189 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 1: Randolph Hurst, these these guys of that era who just 190 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: had more money than God. What distinguished George Fabian from 191 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: those guys is that, you know, instead of spending his 192 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:18,679 Speaker 1: money on French Impressionist paintings or you know, building a 193 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 1: big castle, what really interested George Fabian was discovering the 194 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 1: secrets of nature. He was really into science. He wanted 195 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 1: to discover things about nature that had never been discovered. 196 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 1: And so he turned his private state, which was called Riverbank, 197 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 1: into a kind of half rich man's fantasy land and 198 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 1: half private scientific laboratory, very much like Thomas Edison's Menlo Park, 199 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 1: New Jersey or Nicola Tesla's Lab in New York. It 200 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 1: was a place where, you know, a single committed person 201 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: with a lot of money, had built a scientific laboratory 202 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 1: and institution to investigate secrets of nature. And there was 203 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: all kinds of experiments how penning at Riverbank too. There 204 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: was genetics experiments, agriculture experiments, acoustical experiments, and then there 205 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 1: was this project that George Fabian wanted Elizabeth Smith to 206 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 1: work on, which was the Bacon Cipher Project, the project 207 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: of discovering these secret messages inside the works of Shakespeare, 208 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: ripping them out and translating them into the plain text, 209 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: and revealing the secrets of this Shakespeare book to the world. 210 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 1: And that's that's what he told Elizabeth he wanted her 211 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 1: to do when he went that day, when he met 212 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 1: her in the library and whisked her off on the 213 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 1: train to Riverbank. He wanted her to help him discover 214 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 1: the secrets that were embedded in Shakespeare and sort of 215 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 1: sort of transformed the history of English literature. It's just 216 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 1: it's just unbelievable to think about it. I think about 217 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 1: the number of hours, Mango, that you and I spent 218 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 1: just sitting in libraries hoping that some eccentric tycoon would 219 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:59,199 Speaker 1: come along and discover us and lisk us away. And 220 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 1: it just never happened, but it was. It's it's fascinating 221 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,199 Speaker 1: to read about it, to to think about our fantasy 222 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 1: of that. But yet, so so that project, that Shakespeare 223 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 1: project didn't exactly go you know, anywhere big from there. 224 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: But but but can you tell us, like, how did 225 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: she end up making this transition from trying to figure 226 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,079 Speaker 1: out the code within Shakespeare and seeing if there was 227 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: any truth to this too what she eventually ended up 228 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,560 Speaker 1: doing and some of the very serious code breaking. Sure, 229 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:30,200 Speaker 1: that's a great question. So so she's brought out to 230 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 1: Riverbank knowing nothing about code breaking. She's immediately plunged into 231 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 1: this project to find secret messages in Shakespeare. And she 232 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,320 Speaker 1: can't find them. And she's there for months and months 233 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 1: and months, and she's still having having trouble, you know, 234 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:52,079 Speaker 1: discovering these secret messages. Ultimately, she concludes that it's all 235 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:55,559 Speaker 1: a wild goose chase, it's all kind of a grand delusion. 236 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:58,960 Speaker 1: The secret messages aren't actually there. What's happening is that 237 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 1: George Fabian and the people who believe what he believed 238 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 1: are kind of seeing what they want to see. This 239 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:07,319 Speaker 1: is the thing about human beings is that we're we're 240 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: very good at seeing patterns. Were all kind of born 241 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: to do it. And sometimes we're so good at seeing 242 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 1: patterns that we end up seeing patterns that aren't really there, right, 243 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: and uh, and this is what was happening. They thought 244 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 1: they saw these messages in the works of Shakespeare that 245 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 1: weren't really there. Elizabeth had to figure this out. Um. 246 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 1: But what that experience did is, you know, being dropped 247 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: into this kind of delusion, it made her very interested 248 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 1: and well, if I wanted to find patterns that really 249 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: were there, and if I wanted to be sure that 250 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: they were there, how would I do that? How would 251 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: I develop a method? How would I develop a system 252 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:44,959 Speaker 1: to make sure that I wasn't tricking myself? And so, 253 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: beginning in this kind of world of delusion um inspired 254 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 1: her to try to create a true method and a 255 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: true scientific system for discovering patterns in in these blocks 256 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: of gobbledygook. And that's what launched her on her code 257 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:04,679 Speaker 1: breaking career, sort of in confluence with this other thing 258 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:07,319 Speaker 1: that happened, which is a year after she got to 259 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: River Bank, America entered World War One. So April nineteen seventeen, 260 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:15,320 Speaker 1: you know, America enters the war and at that point. 261 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 1: You know, it's amazing for me to go back and 262 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 1: learn this history because you know, I had always kind 263 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 1: of assumed that the American intelligence community that we that 264 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 1: we know today that's mighty and powerful, the National Security Agency, 265 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: the CIA, the FBI. I had always assumed that these 266 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: institutions are always kind of always powerful, and it had 267 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 1: always existed. But you know, in nineteen seventeen, when America 268 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 1: entered World War One, there really was no American intelligence community. 269 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: There was no n s A, there was no CIA, 270 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 1: and the FBI was very young. And one of the 271 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 1: things that you need to do when you're going to 272 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: war is, you know, you need to read the secret 273 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: messages that the enemy is sending. You need to know 274 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: what they're saying and what they're doing so you can 275 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: have an advantage. The thing is, you know, when America 276 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 1: went to World War in World War One in nineteen seventeen, uh, 277 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 1: it had no ability to do that. There were maybe 278 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 1: five people in the entire United States who even knew 279 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: what a code or a cipher, and so, uh it 280 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: just so happened that some of these five people were 281 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: Elizabeth and her colleagues at Riverbank Laboratories. This bizarre private 282 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 1: institution run by a crazy rich guy on the Illinois Prairie. 283 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 1: It's one of these things, you know, truth is stranger 284 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 1: than fiction, and American history is very very weird. It 285 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: gets very very weird, very very fast when you get 286 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 1: beyond the surface. So what happened is, you know, through 287 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 1: the urgency of war, the necessity of war, you know, 288 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 1: the War Department, the Army realized they didn't have any 289 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 1: code breakers and they needed code breakers very quickly. So, uh, 290 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: just out of desperation, they ended up kind of annexing 291 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: Riverbank Laboratories, which became kind of the first national security agency. 292 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: The War Department and other departments of the U. S. 293 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: Government began to send uh, secret messages that they couldn't 294 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: read out to Riverbank, and Elizabeth and her colleagues they're 295 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 1: working for this crazy tycoon, would solve the messages and 296 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: send them back to Washington. And for the first eight 297 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: months of World War One, um Riverbank, Elizabeth and her colleagues, 298 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: they're handled the entire code breaking burden for the U. S. 299 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: Government while it was at war, which is which is 300 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: incredible to think about, because you know, you've got to 301 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: realize Elizabeth is years old at this time, and she 302 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: has just learned about code breaking in the last year, 303 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 1: but all of a sudden she was the expert and 304 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 1: she had to perform Welcome back to Part Time. Genius 305 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 1: were chatting with Jason Fagoni, the author of The Woman 306 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 1: who Smashed Codes. So, Jason, the whole thing about um, 307 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 1: that code breaking really wasn't a thing before is is 308 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 1: just kind of stunning to be because I always think 309 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: about like things in the paper, like the cryptograms, or 310 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: you think about like uh, Lewis Carroll and anagrams and 311 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 1: people playing with words in crazy ways. But that this 312 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 1: art isn't the thing is is just kind of amazing. 313 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: She also wasn't alone in this endeavor, right, She had 314 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 1: a sort of a love interest and partner during this 315 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:14,400 Speaker 1: time exactly she met a young scientist there named William Friedman. 316 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 1: And and again it's one of these kind of classic 317 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: American tales, two young people from very different worlds. Elizabeth was, 318 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: you know, a Quaker girl from the Midwest. William Friedman 319 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:28,120 Speaker 1: was a Jewish scientist from Pittsburgh, UM. He had been 320 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 1: brought to Riverbank to perform genetics experiments. He was breeding 321 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: fruit flies. Ah he was trying to breed different varieties 322 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 1: of corn and wheat that might take root in different 323 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 1: kinds of soil. But the thing about William Freedman is 324 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 1: that he he had a talent for photography and a 325 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:51,160 Speaker 1: lot of the original work on the Bacon Cipher project. This, 326 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:53,879 Speaker 1: this project of finding secret messages in Shakespeare depended on 327 00:17:54,560 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 1: enlarging photographs of uh, the original Shakespeare manuscript, this sixteen 328 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 1: ft folio. So so, because William was good with camera 329 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 1: and he knew how to develop Prince in a dark room, 330 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: George Fabian roped him into this project. And so William 331 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 1: Friedman began to work with Elizabeth Smith on the Shakespeare 332 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,120 Speaker 1: project and and they both kind of looked at each 333 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: other around the same time and had this had this 334 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:26,440 Speaker 1: epiphany which was, um, everybody at this place is completely 335 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 1: crazy except for us. You know, we are we might 336 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:33,639 Speaker 1: be the only sane people here, and we need to, uh, 337 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 1: we need to form a bond to kind of to 338 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 1: protect ourselves from these lunatics. And while all of this 339 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:42,400 Speaker 1: craziness was swirling around them, Elizabeth and William did something 340 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: extremely important, which is together they invented the modern science 341 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 1: of cryptology, which today is at the core of our 342 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 1: intelligence agencies. So this is a remarkable thing. You know, 343 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:57,439 Speaker 1: in the span of about two or three years, starting 344 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:03,879 Speaker 1: in nineteen they into new techniques of code breaking UM 345 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:07,679 Speaker 1: that had not been known in America. They wrote papers together, 346 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:11,120 Speaker 1: they worked across from each other in the same room, 347 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: at the same desk, solving puzzles with pencil and paper. 348 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 1: You gotta remember, this is before the era of computers. 349 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:18,399 Speaker 1: This is all pencil and paper. You're just sitting there 350 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 1: with pencil paper in your mind. And because so little 351 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 1: was known about code breaking in America, UM, they very 352 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: quickly had to invent new techniques. They had to become scientists, 353 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 1: and they had to become explorers. And they did that. Uh. 354 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,119 Speaker 1: And they were able to do it because they just 355 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:37,199 Speaker 1: had this They had this bond, this link. You know, 356 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 1: there's something kind of miraculous seemed to happen when they 357 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 1: worked together. They made each other better. UM. And and 358 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 1: very quickly they started to consider themselves a duo and 359 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: a team. UM. After they were married. William even even 360 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: came up with the name he called them. He called 361 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 1: them the Freedman combination. And you know, and it's interesting 362 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:58,120 Speaker 1: because because these papers that they wrote together are known 363 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 1: as the Riverbank Publications, and uh uh you know, they've 364 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 1: historically been credited to William alone. You know, it's only 365 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 1: his name that's on the papers. But I went back 366 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 1: and I looked at the early drafts of these publications, 367 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 1: which are in the New York Public Library, uh, in 368 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,119 Speaker 1: their Manuscripts and Archives division. And when you look at 369 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 1: the draft you see that Elizabeth's handwriting is all over them. 370 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 1: In fact, you know her her her name is even 371 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: typed on some of the type scripts as the author 372 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: of certain sections of the papers. So I think that 373 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 1: for several of the papers, especially the early, the early papers, 374 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: Elizabeth was every bit the co author, and in fact, 375 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: William considered her to be the co author too. He 376 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 1: referred to the papers as our papers. And uh. The 377 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 1: thing that kind of seals the deal from me is that, 378 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: you know, uh, in his personal archive, which is at 379 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:52,199 Speaker 1: a private library in Virginia, he has uh he he 380 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 1: kept his own personal copies of the Riverbank Publications, and 381 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 1: on one of them he actually writes Elizabeth's name as 382 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: a co author on the cup or, even though it's 383 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: not there in the printed version. And so so she was, 384 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:08,359 Speaker 1: she was the co founder. I think of modern American cryptology. Wow, 385 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:10,640 Speaker 1: And you know, and you talk about that that impact 386 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,120 Speaker 1: that they had, And I guess finally the War Department 387 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: wakes up to the fact that maybe they need more 388 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 1: than just five people at this weird estate in the 389 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: middle of nowhere and and decides to start their own 390 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: code breaking units. But but that doesn't mean the end 391 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: of it for for William and Elizabeth. Can you talk 392 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 1: a little bit about what you know Elizabeth specifically was 393 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 1: up to in between the World Wars, because she was 394 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,639 Speaker 1: still very much involved in this world Sure, right, So 395 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: you're right, the War Department comes to the conclusion that 396 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 1: maybe it's not the best idea to have a crazy 397 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: tycoon handling all of the code breaking burd and forward 398 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 1: the United States. Uh, they start, they start to build 399 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:49,880 Speaker 1: code breaking teams and capacities in Washington. What happens is, eventually, Uh, 400 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:55,679 Speaker 1: George Fabian sort of reveals his insanity. He begins to 401 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 1: spy on the Freedman's while they're still at Riverbank. He 402 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:01,719 Speaker 1: surveils them, he intercepts them, nail, he becomes very controlling. 403 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 1: There's a suggestion that he might have sexually harassed Elizabeth 404 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:11,120 Speaker 1: while William was serving in France briefly during World War One. 405 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: William comes back from the war, they both get out 406 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 1: of there, they make their escape. They essentially pack up 407 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: their things in the middle of the night because they're 408 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:21,200 Speaker 1: terrified of Fabian and they moved to Washington, d C. 409 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:23,640 Speaker 1: And this is where they spend the rest of their 410 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 1: careers and so UM. Initially they're working in Washington, d C. 411 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 1: Together starting they both they both start working for the army, 412 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,959 Speaker 1: and at first they're working in the same room just 413 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 1: like they were before, designing new codes for the Army 414 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,640 Speaker 1: news safer codes for for the use of the dough boys. UM. 415 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:45,439 Speaker 1: Pretty quickly, Elizabeth gets bored with that and she quits. 416 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 1: She she stays at home and starts to write children's books, 417 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: which was a long ambition of her. She wanted to 418 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 1: write a children's book about the history of the alphabets 419 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: and show sort of the wonders of the alphabet and 420 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: the system of of of written communication into two kids 421 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:05,159 Speaker 1: and young adults. And she also had gave birth to 422 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:10,680 Speaker 1: their first child around that time. Barbara daughter and uhe 423 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 1: Elizabeth is kind of out of the game right she 424 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 1: she's at home, she's writing children's books. She's recovering from labor, 425 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 1: and she is a mother, and this is kind of 426 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 1: what she thinks she's going to do for the rest 427 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 1: rest of her life and her career. But what happens 428 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,879 Speaker 1: is that men from the government show up on her 429 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,199 Speaker 1: doorstep and asked herself puzzles for America. And this is 430 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: this is exactly these are her words. By the way, 431 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: this is how she put it. She she was kind 432 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 1: of a complaint all of her life. She said that 433 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 1: men from the government keep showing up on my doorstep 434 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:43,679 Speaker 1: asking me to selve puzzles, and the only way the 435 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:45,640 Speaker 1: only way to make them go away is to say yes, 436 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:49,399 Speaker 1: and agreed to these projects. The problem for Elizabeth is 437 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 1: that she was just so good at what she did 438 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 1: um she and she had such an unusual set of 439 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:58,880 Speaker 1: skills that she became indispensable, and so the government really 440 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,399 Speaker 1: could not afford to leave her alone. And so at 441 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: every stage of her career, and men from the government 442 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,640 Speaker 1: were showing up on her doorstep asking her to confront 443 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 1: some kind of challenge for which they were unprepared. And 444 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 1: and the challenge in n The first men from the 445 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 1: government who showed up on her doorstep in DC. We're 446 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 1: from the U. S. Treasury Department, specifically the U. S. 447 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 1: Coast Guard, and they were asking Elizabeth to help them 448 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:27,159 Speaker 1: fight the war against organized crime because of prohibition. What 449 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 1: the Coast Guard needed to make any progress in in 450 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 1: this war against uh these rum runners was code breaking. 451 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 1: And by the way, these were not gentlemen run runners, right, 452 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: the gentleman rum runners. The guys sort of the the 453 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,960 Speaker 1: small time entrepreneurs with a boat. Yeah, they were out 454 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:43,920 Speaker 1: of the game by nineteen four. They were. They were 455 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 1: edged out. They were forced out by organized crime, by 456 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 1: these mafias, and so, uh so, what the Coast Guard 457 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 1: needed to make any progress was code breaking. They needed 458 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,200 Speaker 1: someone like Elizabeth to come in look at the intercepted 459 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 1: radio messages, you know, solve them, and light up this 460 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 1: dark an underworld too, so that the Coast Guard would 461 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 1: be able to catch these boats and put these guys 462 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,119 Speaker 1: on trial. And that's exactly what she started to do. 463 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: Starting she became an expert in this discipline of radio intelligence, 464 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 1: which is intercepting the radio messages, solving the codes, using 465 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,959 Speaker 1: the information to map the hit and network the darkened 466 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,879 Speaker 1: underworld to throw light on it and then once she 467 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: had solved the messages of these rum runners, a lot 468 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 1: of the times she would be called to testifying court 469 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,159 Speaker 1: against them, which is incredible to think about, because you know, 470 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 1: it's this potite woman, five ft three, you know, walking 471 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: to the front of a courtroom, you know, in a 472 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 1: pink dress and a pink hat with a flower pinned 473 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,639 Speaker 1: to the brim, and she's sitting in the witness box 474 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: staring down, you know, in one case, more than twenty 475 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:49,199 Speaker 1: agents of an organized crime syndicate and explaining to a 476 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,159 Speaker 1: jury exactly what code breaking is and exactly how she 477 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 1: solved these messages because she had to be able to 478 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 1: convince a jury that it was real science, that the 479 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,640 Speaker 1: words that she was saying, the rummer owners were saying, 480 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: we're their actual words, that she really was kind of 481 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:04,879 Speaker 1: reading their thoughts in it. There was a science to it. 482 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,480 Speaker 1: And so, uh So Elizabeth became, for a brief time 483 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,199 Speaker 1: in the in the early nineteen thirties, a front page story. 484 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: Uh and it was kind of an irresistible story for 485 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 1: reporters because you know, they would they would describe her 486 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: as sort of like, uh, a small woman in a 487 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: pink dress who protects the United States or or you know, 488 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:27,920 Speaker 1: a pretty little woman in a in a Philly prank 489 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: pink dress. Um, and she and she would find herself 490 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,360 Speaker 1: on the front page all of a sudden and testifying 491 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 1: in these spectacular trials. Wow. Yeah, And I think you 492 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 1: said at one point she was decoding up to what 493 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,439 Speaker 1: like twenty five thousand messages in a year, So not 494 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 1: only was she good at this, but she was incredibly fast. Yes, 495 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: it was an astonishing volume of stuff. And and again 496 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,120 Speaker 1: this is before computers, so so a lot of the 497 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: job was just this kind of daily grind of of 498 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 1: cranking through paper. So, Jason, I want to get into 499 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 1: jed or Hoover and how the FBI messed up so 500 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 1: many things and and all of that story is fascinating, 501 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,439 Speaker 1: But before that, can you tell us a little bit 502 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,680 Speaker 1: about how you found the story and how you reported 503 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 1: it because it obviously has uh you know, a ton 504 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,959 Speaker 1: of work went into this incredible book. Sure, So the 505 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 1: genesis of the story was really the Edward Snowden uh 506 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:27,199 Speaker 1: leaks in. So after the Snowden story broke, I I 507 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:30,160 Speaker 1: started reading about the n s A, right, and I think, um, 508 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:31,919 Speaker 1: the history of the n s A, Where did it 509 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,639 Speaker 1: come from and like a lot of Americans, I think 510 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: I didn't really know much about the n s A. 511 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 1: And when you start reading about the history of the 512 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:42,119 Speaker 1: n s A, all roads lead to William Friedman, Elizabeth's husband. 513 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 1: He's considered to be the godfather of the n s A. 514 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 1: That today, if you go to n s A headquarters 515 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 1: in Fort Meade. Uh, there's an outside of the auditorium 516 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,359 Speaker 1: that is named for William is a bronze bust of 517 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:57,160 Speaker 1: his head. So William is like the guy, the guy 518 00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: with the n s A. UM. But I also read 519 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 1: I read that he that he had a wife who 520 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:06,199 Speaker 1: was a codebreaker herself, and I thought that was interesting, right, 521 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 1: Like a husband and wife codebreaker. That's that's kind of unusual. 522 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 1: And I went looking for more information about Elizabeth, but 523 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 1: there wasn't really much that I could find. And so 524 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,960 Speaker 1: one day I drove down from my from my house 525 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 1: outside of Philly to the library in Lexington, Virginia, where 526 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 1: the Freedman's left their personal papers before they died. And 527 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,439 Speaker 1: William left, uh, you know, reams of stuff, boxes and 528 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: boxes and boxes and boxes. Elizabeth left a smaller amount 529 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 1: of material, but she still left twenty two boxes full 530 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 1: of full of documents, and um, I asked if I 531 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,959 Speaker 1: could see them, and so I started reading reading her stuff, 532 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 1: starting with Box one, File one. And you know, immediately 533 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 1: when I started reading her letters, I was just I 534 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: was just taken with her voice, you know, on on 535 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: the page a hundred years ago, reading reading reading her 536 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: words in her own hand. And she's just so sort 537 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:04,560 Speaker 1: of funny, witty, warm, sometimes sort of biting, sarcastic. She 538 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 1: could be very savage on the bag sometimes and and 539 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 1: I was just captivated with with her voice. But you know, 540 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 1: the more I read in those twenty two boxes, the 541 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 1: more I realized that, um, you know, not only was 542 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: this the story of UH, you know, a remarkable woman, 543 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 1: UM who had an amazing, kind of dramatic, kind of 544 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 1: irresistibly you know, cinematic career. I mean, a code breaking 545 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: Quaker poet who caught gangsters. It's it's it's kind of irresistible, right, 546 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: But I also realized that, you know, she was really 547 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 1: a hidden woman behind the birth and the growth of 548 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 1: the intelligence UH community in America, because she really was 549 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 1: present at the beginning of a lot of things that 550 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 1: that today are very important. And so I thought it 551 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 1: was you know, it was both kind of like a 552 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 1: you know, an incredible, just human story that hadn't been told, 553 00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 1: but I also thought it was it was important and 554 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 1: in terms of the bigger picture of American intelligence. The 555 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 1: thing about the twenty two boxes that I found at 556 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 1: the library that Elizabeth had left was, uh, there was 557 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 1: nothing in World War about World War Two in those boxes, 558 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 1: so there was essentially a gap between nineteen thirty nine 559 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 1: and so what she did during World War Two. What 560 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 1: I found in those records is that, um, she was 561 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 1: hunting Nazi spies. So after Hitler invaded Poland, Nazi spies 562 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 1: began spreading out into the Western hemisphere, and uh, most 563 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 1: of them set up shop in South America. South America 564 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 1: was a good place for them to be because it 565 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 1: was kind of upper grabs, it was neutral, uh, and 566 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 1: it was close to North America, so it was a 567 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 1: good listening post for Nazi spies to gather intelligence about 568 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 1: what America was doing and what Britain was doing. There 569 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 1: were also a lot of sort of right wing movements 570 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 1: in individual South American countries that kind of resembled fascism, 571 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 1: So there was some natural sympathy for the fascist cause 572 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 1: they're also millions of German colonists already living there, so 573 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 1: Nazis had kind of a natural advantage. It was fertile 574 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 1: soil for Nazi spies to set up. And and what 575 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 1: they did is when they when they went to South America, 576 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 1: they started to build clandestine radio stations, pirate radio stations, 577 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 1: and they would transmit their intelligence reports back to Berlin 578 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: and Hamburg Um over the radio. And uh, it was 579 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,080 Speaker 1: the FBI's job, Jagger Hoover's job at that point, to 580 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 1: try to stop these Nazi spies. The problem was he 581 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 1: wasn't very good at it. So um, there's a famous story. 582 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 1: The FBI created a whole new division in to try 583 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: to go after Nazi spies in South America. It was 584 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: called the s I S. And the first couple of 585 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: FBI agents who went to South America, they got off 586 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 1: the plane and they were immediately spotted by the locals 587 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 1: and and made for FBI guys. You know, the locals. 588 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 1: The locals looked at them and they they looked like 589 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 1: FBI guys they had seen in the movies. They had 590 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 1: the snap brim hats and then you know, uh, you know, 591 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 1: the square jaws and everything, and they were really paled, 592 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: didn't They didn't speak the languages. Um. You know, there's 593 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 1: a story about one of the guys who had taken 594 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 1: a language course in New York in preparation for his 595 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 1: posting to South America. The the FBI had taught him Spanish, 596 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 1: and then he was posted to Brazil and he got 597 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 1: off the plane in Brazil, you know, disappointed to discover 598 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 1: that the language that's spoken in Brazil is mainly Portuguese 599 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 1: and not Spanish. So these guys were completely lost, right 600 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 1: the FBI, Yeah, they were never They were never going 601 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 1: to be able to find these Nazi spies using kind 602 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 1: of old school FBI techniques of developing confidential informants and 603 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. What they really needed was code breaking, right, 604 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 1: They needed a technical advantage. They needed to intercept these 605 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 1: radio messages, UH, solve the messages and light up the 606 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 1: darkened underworld by by kind of stealing the thoughts directly 607 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: from the lips of the spies. Um. But they couldn't 608 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,959 Speaker 1: do that because the FBI didn't have Because the FBI 609 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 1: didn't have a code breaking team, they had no code 610 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 1: breaking capacity. They had no ability uh to break codes 611 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 1: and to read the messages of what these Nazi spies 612 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:10,959 Speaker 1: were saying. But Elizabeth Friedman did because you know, she 613 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 1: had spent the last fifteen years UH kind of doing 614 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 1: target practice against rum runners and drug smuggles. She she 615 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 1: had developed this expertise at intercepting radio messages, solving them 616 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 1: and mapping these underworld networks because that had been her 617 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 1: job during the twenties and thirties, to to fight smuggling 618 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: and so, um, it wasn't that she set out to 619 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 1: to hunt Nazi spies. It's just that she she happened 620 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 1: to have the right set of skills the right moment, 621 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 1: you know, and in she was ready to go. And 622 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 1: so so what ended up happening is the FBI relied 623 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 1: on Elizabeth and UM and the code breaking team that 624 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 1: she had built within the Coast Guard UH code breakers 625 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 1: that she had trained she had led UM relying on 626 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 1: them to as as kind of the technical back end 627 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 1: of this of this hunt for Nazi spies in South America. 628 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 1: Elizabeth and her team would monitor these clandestine radio circuits 629 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 1: used by Nazi spies, solve the messages, and provide the 630 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:13,359 Speaker 1: translated English plain texts to Allied intelligence agencies, including the Army, 631 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 1: the Navy, the FBI, and also British intelligence, and by 632 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:19,480 Speaker 1: the end of the war they had monitored about fifty 633 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 1: different clandestine radio circuits used by the Nazis, solved four 634 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:30,719 Speaker 1: thousand messages. These messages were incredibly important in ultimately destroying 635 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 1: these Nazi spy rings in South America and eliminating a 636 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:38,840 Speaker 1: dangerous threat. You know, Elizabeth and her teammates really brought 637 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,240 Speaker 1: these Nazi spies to Ruin Pick to pick their networks 638 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:46,720 Speaker 1: apart piece by piece, destroyed them, you know, neutralized the threat. 639 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 1: And then after the war, Jagger Hoover you know, stuck 640 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:54,360 Speaker 1: up his hand and went out to the public on 641 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,239 Speaker 1: kind of a publicity campaign taking credit for all of that, 642 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,759 Speaker 1: and he said, you know, America, the FBI saved you 643 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:05,319 Speaker 1: from this dangerous Nazi spy invasion in South America, and uh, 644 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,440 Speaker 1: you're welcome. And and that's kind of the story that 645 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 1: has been told ever since, is that is that the 646 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 1: FBI did, uh, did all of the hard, dangerous, brave, 647 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 1: uh you know, brilliant work of catching these Nazi spies 648 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 1: in South America. But I think the truth is that 649 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:25,360 Speaker 1: the real driver was Elizabeth Friedman. It was this it 650 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:27,719 Speaker 1: was this American mother of two who figured out how 651 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 1: to sweep the western hemisphere free of undercover Nazis. And uh, 652 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 1: and yet she never got the credit for it because 653 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 1: because Hoover got out there in front. Welcome back to 654 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:53,840 Speaker 1: Part time Genius. We're chatting with Jason Fagoni, the author 655 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 1: of The Woman who Smashed Codes. Okay, Jason, So she, 656 00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,719 Speaker 1: you know, helps through World War One, obviously lead decodes, 657 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:03,719 Speaker 1: you know, as you said, twenty five thousand messages a 658 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,239 Speaker 1: year in between the world wars at times, and and 659 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 1: helped defeat the Nazis in World War Two. It's just 660 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:13,279 Speaker 1: an unbelievable story. And then you said, after all of this, 661 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,520 Speaker 1: she and William kind of come back to the Shakespeare 662 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 1: project later in their lives, and and why was this? Yes? 663 00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 1: So after the war, Uh, William was one of the 664 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 1: people who helped form the National Security Agency that the 665 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,839 Speaker 1: team that he had created and built at the Army, 666 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:36,320 Speaker 1: which during World War Two achieved essentially the impossible by 667 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:40,000 Speaker 1: breaking the Japanese diplomatic code which was called Purple, which 668 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,120 Speaker 1: she gave the Allies a huge advantage and probably shortened 669 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 1: the war. Yeah, he did all these heroic things during 670 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:47,480 Speaker 1: World War Two and then after the war helped to 671 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 1: create the n s A. His his army unit was 672 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 1: kind of absorbed into this thing that became the n 673 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 1: s A. But as the n s A kind of 674 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:59,840 Speaker 1: began to grow, um it it grew beyond what what 675 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:05,040 Speaker 1: he uh felt like he could bear. Um. He became 676 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,680 Speaker 1: a critic internally of some of the n s AS 677 00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:12,680 Speaker 1: policies and it's uh it's directions. He he became concerned 678 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:17,319 Speaker 1: that that too many documents were being classified. Um he 679 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,279 Speaker 1: felt like the NSA was collecting too much information. He 680 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 1: felt like they would never ever be able to sift 681 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,720 Speaker 1: all the information they were collecting for actionable intelligence. And 682 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 1: uh and it really troubled him. And uh and and 683 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,879 Speaker 1: throughout the nineteen fifties, as the Cold War, UH kind 684 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 1: of sharpened in d C and the atmosphere of paranoia grew. 685 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:43,359 Speaker 1: Um William became more and more despairing about his relationship 686 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:47,400 Speaker 1: with this organization and with the government more broadly. That 687 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:49,640 Speaker 1: he that he felt he had always served very loyal 688 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:53,759 Speaker 1: loyally and um you know it. This kind of culminated 689 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:59,400 Speaker 1: in this famous famous day in eight when the n 690 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:02,560 Speaker 1: s A sent agents to the personal home of William 691 00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:06,879 Speaker 1: and Elizabeth Friedman and removed documents and books from their 692 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,840 Speaker 1: from their private library, UH, saying saying that they were 693 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,239 Speaker 1: classified and needed needed to be moved to a higher 694 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:14,400 Speaker 1: level of classification the free You know, a lot of 695 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,360 Speaker 1: the a lot of the materials were so old that 696 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 1: they dated back to the First World War. UH. William 697 00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,880 Speaker 1: was baffled, you know that that the n s A 698 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,000 Speaker 1: would uh would want to classify these things because they 699 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:28,919 Speaker 1: were so old and there they were really of only 700 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:31,920 Speaker 1: historical interest. He thought that, um, you know, they they 701 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 1: found this to be kind of intolerable, a you know, 702 00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:39,360 Speaker 1: an invasion of their privacy. And UM, I think it 703 00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:45,000 Speaker 1: motivated him and and and probably Elizabeth too to pull 704 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:48,319 Speaker 1: away from from government work more and more and back 705 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,000 Speaker 1: to personal projects. And so one of the personal projects 706 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,399 Speaker 1: that they could could talk about that they could work on, 707 00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 1: UH in this atmosphere of kind of deepening paranoia, security 708 00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:00,080 Speaker 1: and classification was something that had nothing to do with 709 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,360 Speaker 1: government codebreaking all. Is something that's something that went back 710 00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:07,520 Speaker 1: to UH to their original kind of wild goose chase 711 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:11,640 Speaker 1: of their youth at Number Bank Laboratory. So so you know, 712 00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 1: and what they did is they went back to this, uh, 713 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,399 Speaker 1: to this theory that George Fabian had always tried to 714 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,200 Speaker 1: get them to prove this theory that that Francis Bacon 715 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:23,200 Speaker 1: had inserted secret messages in the works of Shakespeare and 716 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:25,560 Speaker 1: uh and they just demolished it. They used all of 717 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:29,000 Speaker 1: their ability, all of their uh, all of their kind 718 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,839 Speaker 1: of savagery on the page to to sort of go 719 00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:35,200 Speaker 1: through every piece of piece of purported evidence for for 720 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:38,600 Speaker 1: this theory and uh and just and just destroy it 721 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:41,839 Speaker 1: page by page. And it is wonderful. And they wrote 722 00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:44,640 Speaker 1: it together. Um, it's a very funny book. It's it's 723 00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:50,000 Speaker 1: it's a very uh sort of precise book and uh 724 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:52,320 Speaker 1: and and that was the thing that brought them back together, 725 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:57,280 Speaker 1: working together after decades of of kind of growing growing 726 00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:01,840 Speaker 1: apart because of their you know, increasing important security duties 727 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:05,120 Speaker 1: for the United States. Wow. Well, I have to say, Jason, 728 00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:07,400 Speaker 1: in reading this book, this is this is one of 729 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,000 Speaker 1: those history books that as you're reading it, you can 730 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:14,560 Speaker 1: almost see and feel the blood, sweat and tears that 731 00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:18,080 Speaker 1: went into this project. It's not only beautifully written, but 732 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:21,640 Speaker 1: you can tell just all of the the intense amount 733 00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,399 Speaker 1: of research that you've done to put into this book 734 00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:26,759 Speaker 1: and and for that, I honestly I just want to 735 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:28,879 Speaker 1: say thanks, because it it is one of the best 736 00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,040 Speaker 1: books I've read in a long time. And I do 737 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,640 Speaker 1: hope our our readers will check out The Woman who 738 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:37,600 Speaker 1: Smashed Codes. It's an incredible story. So Elizabeth died in 739 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:41,120 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty at the age of eighty eight, mostly unacknowledged 740 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:44,360 Speaker 1: for her foundation laying cryptographic word. But you know, you 741 00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:47,040 Speaker 1: stumbled into her story and and for that and all 742 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:48,840 Speaker 1: the work you put into this, I just want to 743 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:52,520 Speaker 1: say thanks. Oh, thank you, guys. I I really appreciate 744 00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:56,200 Speaker 1: your UM. I don't know, your questions were great. It's 745 00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:58,120 Speaker 1: clearly that you paid a lot of paid a lot 746 00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:01,120 Speaker 1: of attention to the book and and honestly it is um. 747 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:03,640 Speaker 1: It was a joy doing the research. It was. It 748 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,600 Speaker 1: was one of those projects that every journalist and every 749 00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:10,480 Speaker 1: writer hopes to stumble across, and I feel lucky to 750 00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:23,239 Speaker 1: have to have gotten to do it. Ye, welcome back 751 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:25,840 Speaker 1: to part time Genius. Now we've learned a ton today. 752 00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:27,839 Speaker 1: But you know, we can't wrap this thing up without 753 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:30,120 Speaker 1: a good old fashioned fact off. So you want to 754 00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:33,440 Speaker 1: kick us off, Mango, Yeah, definitely, So I know Jason 755 00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:35,440 Speaker 1: talked about this a little bit earlier, but I loved 756 00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,319 Speaker 1: reading about how Elizabeth and William taught their kids the 757 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:41,319 Speaker 1: basics of cryptography, like as early as seven years old. 758 00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:44,120 Speaker 1: So when their daughter Barbara was off at sleepaway camp, 759 00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:46,839 Speaker 1: she'd send home letters and code, and the Freedman's would 760 00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:50,120 Speaker 1: use codes and ciphers and their um Christmas cards and 761 00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 1: sometimes they even had cipher parties where their guests would 762 00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:54,680 Speaker 1: have to solve the cipher just to figure out what 763 00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:57,279 Speaker 1: would be served for dinner. Wow, that's pretty awesome, And 764 00:41:57,360 --> 00:41:59,560 Speaker 1: actually it's kind of neat to see this coming back 765 00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,160 Speaker 1: in a way with like these breakout type places that 766 00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:04,120 Speaker 1: people will go with their friends to play. Have you 767 00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:08,080 Speaker 1: seen these people one of these exit the room things? Yeah, yeah, exactly. 768 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:10,040 Speaker 1: I've never been to one, but they seem pretty interesting. 769 00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:12,120 Speaker 1: All Right, Well, I know we've been talking about the 770 00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:14,840 Speaker 1: woman who smashed codes, but there was another book published 771 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:17,640 Speaker 1: this fall that's more generally about women code breakers, and 772 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:21,000 Speaker 1: it's called Code Girls, The Untold Story of the American 773 00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:24,640 Speaker 1: Women Codebreakers of World War Two, and it's by Liz Mundy. 774 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:26,760 Speaker 1: So I think i'll share just a couple of facts 775 00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:28,480 Speaker 1: from that, and it does tell the story of the 776 00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:31,800 Speaker 1: more than ten thousand college students and school teachers, among 777 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,600 Speaker 1: other women who were recruited to really be the backbone 778 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:36,800 Speaker 1: of our intelligence efforts. But one of the things I 779 00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:39,360 Speaker 1: thought was so interesting is that it was a huge, 780 00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:43,080 Speaker 1: huge advantage for the Allied powers because unlike the Allied 781 00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:45,400 Speaker 1: Powers who put all of these women to work, the 782 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,080 Speaker 1: Access Powers didn't do the same. And their estimates that 783 00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:50,520 Speaker 1: it shortened the war by as many as two or 784 00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,319 Speaker 1: three years. Oh wow, that's incredible. So one of the 785 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:55,720 Speaker 1: more strange figures that Elizabeth took down was this woman 786 00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,440 Speaker 1: known as Doll Lady, and she discovered the secret code 787 00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:00,560 Speaker 1: hidden in the letters of this New York men named 788 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:04,799 Speaker 1: Velveolee Dickinson, who was acting as this Japanese spy. It's 789 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,400 Speaker 1: an amazing story. So Dickinson owned a doll shop and 790 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,200 Speaker 1: would send letters to an address in Buenos Aires, and 791 00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:12,600 Speaker 1: she'd be talking about various dolls in her collection. But 792 00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:15,799 Speaker 1: Elizabeth realized that her references to like English dolls and 793 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,600 Speaker 1: foreign dolls were actually a way to communicate about the Allies, 794 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:21,160 Speaker 1: and the Doll Lady was eventually sentenced to ten years 795 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,480 Speaker 1: in prison and find after being charged with espionage. She 796 00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:27,400 Speaker 1: got that doll lady. Wow, what a strange character. I know, 797 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:30,000 Speaker 1: it just confirms my theories that adults who love dolls 798 00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,560 Speaker 1: shouldn't be trusted. That it's a good that's a good one. 799 00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:35,000 Speaker 1: I go, maybe we'll do a whole episode on at 800 00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:37,440 Speaker 1: that point. Alright, Well, back to Monday's books. So she 801 00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:40,279 Speaker 1: writes about how the branches of military were different from 802 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:43,200 Speaker 1: one another and who they allowed to be codebreakers and 803 00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:46,200 Speaker 1: who they didn't. So the Navy, for example, didn't allow 804 00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:48,920 Speaker 1: non whites, they didn't want Jewish women, they didn't want 805 00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:52,160 Speaker 1: African American women. The army, on the other hand, did 806 00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:56,560 Speaker 1: allow non whites. However, not surprisingly, these groups were segregated. 807 00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:59,000 Speaker 1: And it was really frustrating from Monday as she was 808 00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:01,759 Speaker 1: doing the research because they there's no substantial records out 809 00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,120 Speaker 1: there other than a few photos, and you can actually 810 00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:06,440 Speaker 1: see these in Monday's book, and you know, it shows 811 00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:09,279 Speaker 1: a room full of African American codebreakers, most of them 812 00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:11,759 Speaker 1: being women. So, as Jason explained to us, by the 813 00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,800 Speaker 1: early nineteen twenties, there were only three code breaking units 814 00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:17,640 Speaker 1: in the government and fewer than fifty employees, and about 815 00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,400 Speaker 1: half of those employees worked for the State Department, and 816 00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:22,719 Speaker 1: the Army and Navy had the other two. But in 817 00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,960 Speaker 1: nine the Secretary of State decided to shut down the 818 00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:29,760 Speaker 1: State Department's unit because, as he put it, quote, gentlemen 819 00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:33,759 Speaker 1: do not read each other's mail. Wow, what a strange thing, 820 00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:36,400 Speaker 1: all right. Well, one of the other things Monday shows 821 00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:38,839 Speaker 1: and Code Girls is that unlike this common notion that 822 00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:41,399 Speaker 1: there are all these big and exciting kind of ah 823 00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:44,920 Speaker 1: ha moments in code breaking, it's actually much more similar 824 00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:47,239 Speaker 1: to a marathon. And she does a great job of 825 00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:51,000 Speaker 1: of of showing how they were working often around the clock, 826 00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:54,160 Speaker 1: just looking for patterns and searching and searching. And it 827 00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:57,080 Speaker 1: really was this marathon work that had played a huge 828 00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:59,680 Speaker 1: role in helping to shorten the war, as I mentioned earlier, 829 00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:02,239 Speaker 1: because the Allies just had a much better idea of 830 00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:04,640 Speaker 1: what the Japanese and Germans were planning to do each 831 00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:06,759 Speaker 1: step along the way. And I bet you want a 832 00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:09,920 Speaker 1: carbo load before you stage with that. Definitely, definitely. So 833 00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:12,040 Speaker 1: I know we like to talk about the best job titles, 834 00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:14,920 Speaker 1: so I had to tell you about uh. When Elizabeth 835 00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:17,440 Speaker 1: was tapped to head up the Coastguards codebreaking team, not 836 00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:19,239 Speaker 1: only was she the first woman to run a US 837 00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:21,680 Speaker 1: government code breaking unit, but she was also given a 838 00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:25,600 Speaker 1: business card that said Cryptanalyst and charge US Coast Guard. 839 00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:28,000 Speaker 1: That's one of the best titles I've ever heard. I 840 00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:30,439 Speaker 1: cannot beat that, So I'm gonna give you today's fact 841 00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,239 Speaker 1: off Mango. Thank you, Thank you. All Right, that's it 842 00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:35,880 Speaker 1: for today's show. A special thanks to Jocelyn Sears for 843 00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:38,440 Speaker 1: her excellent research help with this episode. Now, if you 844 00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:40,560 Speaker 1: want to share any of your favorite code breaking facts, 845 00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:42,799 Speaker 1: you can always email us at part Time Genius at 846 00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,560 Speaker 1: how Stuff Works dot com or call us on our 847 00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:48,920 Speaker 1: seven Fact hot line one eight four four pt Genius. 848 00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:51,160 Speaker 1: You can also hit us up on Facebook or Twitter, 849 00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:52,759 Speaker 1: and don't forget to let us know if you'd like 850 00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:54,440 Speaker 1: to come on to play a quiz with us sometime. 851 00:45:54,640 --> 00:46:11,280 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, Thanks again for listening. Part Time Genius 852 00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:13,200 Speaker 1: is a production of How Stuff Works and wouldn't be 853 00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:16,160 Speaker 1: possible without several brilliant people who do the important things 854 00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:19,000 Speaker 1: we couldn't even begin to understand. Christa McNeil does the 855 00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:21,520 Speaker 1: editing thing. Noel Brown made the theme song and does 856 00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:24,600 Speaker 1: the MIXI mixy sound thing. Jerry Rowland does the exact 857 00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:27,920 Speaker 1: producer thing Gabeluesier is our lead researcher, with support from 858 00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:31,040 Speaker 1: the Research Army including Austin Thompson, Nolan Brown and Lucas 859 00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:33,280 Speaker 1: Adams and Eve. Jeff Cook gets the show to your ears. 860 00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:35,440 Speaker 1: Good job, Eves. If you like what you heard, we 861 00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:37,560 Speaker 1: hope you'll subscribe, And if you really really like what 862 00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:39,719 Speaker 1: you've heard, maybe you could leave a good review for us. 863 00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:42,040 Speaker 1: Do we do we forget Jason? Jason who