Speaker 1: Check me out at the annual Black Effect Podcast Festival,
Speaker 1: happening Saturday, April twenty seventh in Atlanta. Live podcasts are
Speaker 1: on deck from some of your favorite shows, including this one,
Speaker 1: Black Tech, Green Money, and also some of the best
Speaker 1: podcasts in the game like Deeply Well with Debbie Brown
Speaker 1: and Carefully Reckless. Atlanta is one of my favorite cities
Speaker 1: in the world. I've lived there for two years. Actually,
Speaker 1: in my worldview, seeing us successful in every industry and
Speaker 1: not having any limits on our potential largely was shaped
Speaker 1: by Atlanta. So to be there with you doing this
Speaker 1: podcast talking about how we build or leverage technology to
Speaker 1: bill wealth. Come on, man, doesn't get better. I want
Speaker 1: to see you there. Get your tickets today at Black
Speaker 1: Effect dot comback's last podcast festival. I'm Will Lucas and
Speaker 1: this is Black Tech, Green Money. Jarvis SAMs, founder and
Speaker 1: CEO at The Rainbow Disruption with the mission is to
Speaker 1: partner with organizations to develop practical solutions that champion DEI
Speaker 1: in the workplace and enables systemic progress where authenticity, empathy, growth,
Speaker 1: mindset and transparency are celebrated. Previously, he was Chief Diversity,
Speaker 1: Equity and Inclusion Officer at Nike. A large effort in
Speaker 1: DEI is to create equitable opportunities in spaces where people
Speaker 1: from various backgrounds can have a voice.
Speaker 2: These are achievable goals.
Speaker 1: So if we're successful in do DEI, executives ultimately work
Speaker 1: themselves out of jobs.
Speaker 3: I think that the work equity and inclusion is actually
Speaker 3: never done, as we see as time goes on in
Speaker 3: different horizons change, different groups ultimately end up being at
Speaker 3: the center of experiences of marginalization.
Speaker 4: Unfortunately, the raw reality of our work.
Speaker 3: Is that because so many different factors social, political, environmental,
Speaker 3: economic tie into the way that we do our work,
Speaker 3: there's always going to be a need for organizations to
Speaker 3: understand how do we create equitable approaches and equitable outcomes
Speaker 3: that serve people and teams. I think the product inclusion
Speaker 3: space is critical here will if you take a look
Speaker 3: at what new product development looks like within organizations. Every
Speaker 3: time a company drives in to stand up a new product,
Speaker 3: we have to consider it through the lens of ensuring
Speaker 3: that it's accessible to all people. I'llbe at disability status,
Speaker 3: language barriers, or otherwise. And so with some of those
Speaker 3: different constraints in mind, the work of equity practitioners to
Speaker 3: ensure great outcomes for all will forever be something that
Speaker 3: we have to continue doing.
Speaker 1: And to that point, you know, I've heard you talk
Speaker 1: about before, specifically the around the time of George Floyd
Speaker 1: and coming out of the pandemic, there was so much
Speaker 1: focus on making sure.
Speaker 2: Black people got equity in the workplace.
Speaker 1: And then there was this big uprising in you know,
Speaker 1: Pacific Islander and Asians talking about they needed, you.
Speaker 2: Know, equity.
Speaker 1: So how do corporations manage effectively so many people you know,
Speaker 1: chomping at their heels saying, hey, you got to pay
Speaker 1: attention to us too when it when it changes so frequently.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, for starters, organizations have got to not
Speaker 3: look at this as a zero of some game. Unfortunately,
Speaker 3: so many organizations have positioned the nature of this work
Speaker 3: through in us versus them mentality. The challenge is the
Speaker 3: USh and them are often too marginalized and minoritized communities ourselves.
Speaker 3: I recall the exact experience you're describing will when we
Speaker 3: saw the rise and recognition through a period of racial
Speaker 3: and social reckoning following the murder of George Floyd May
Speaker 3: twenty twenty, and then by March of twenty twenty one,
Speaker 3: we started to see increasing narratives and stories highlighting this
Speaker 3: notion of hashtag stop.
Speaker 4: Asian hate in numerous organizations.
Speaker 3: You saw this conflict begin to be developed between how
Speaker 3: communities are interacting with one another, where support systems are
Speaker 3: built versus none, and you literally saw organizations positioning a
Speaker 3: perspective that what, we gave this much money to black communities,
Speaker 3: and so we need to think about how do we
Speaker 3: support API communities. The harsh reality, though, is that the
Speaker 3: experiences of the communities are so different, and when you
Speaker 3: position it as a zero sum game, it assumes that
Speaker 3: there's only this amount of pie that's available for us
Speaker 3: to fight over. Meanwhile, those that exist in the space
Speaker 3: of the dominant discourse are enjoying all of their nourishment
Speaker 3: and fruits and delight on this side. For organizations to
Speaker 3: be successful here, the lens of equity requires us to
Speaker 3: consider the specific needs of key organizations and recognizing where
Speaker 3: our companies may have been complicit in the marginalization of
Speaker 3: those communities. Take, for example, the sports industry and certainly
Speaker 3: in the footwear industry. Arguably every streetwear, lifestylear performance space
Speaker 3: footwear brand has benefited off of the contributions of black bodies,
Speaker 3: whether it's the athletes that represent these organizations through a
Speaker 3: sports marketing lens or the consumers that patronize their businesses
Speaker 3: and organizations every single day in physical platforms and digital
Speaker 3: These organizations then have an obligation to think about how
Speaker 3: they support these communities that are a part of the
Speaker 3: building and development of their bottom line. To do this effectively, though,
Speaker 3: we can cannot see the work of support of marginalized
Speaker 3: communities at awe to one another, but rather recognize that
Speaker 3: to truly move towards systemic solutions means gaining a stronger
Speaker 3: understanding of where we've been and how we got here,
Speaker 3: how does this show up in the present and its
Speaker 3: impact and implication on people, and then what investments are
Speaker 3: we going to make as an organization, since you're a
Speaker 3: betterment of future.
Speaker 1: I want to go a level deeper there because I've
Speaker 1: heard black women talk about this. You know, black women's
Speaker 1: diversity and equity inside the workplace lags behind Black people
Speaker 1: in the workplace. And I've heard black women talk about
Speaker 1: when organizations and companies talk about well you talk about
Speaker 1: women's issues, is black women get left out and white
Speaker 1: women ultimately benefit from the efforts that black women have
Speaker 1: raised their arms about.
Speaker 2: What's your take on this?
Speaker 3: You know, well, in addition to my work as the
Speaker 3: founder and CEO of the Rainbow Disruption, I also teach
Speaker 3: in academic spaces. So I am a professor of practice
Speaker 3: at Brown University. When that I work as part of
Speaker 3: the fully Employed MBA program as well with the University
Speaker 3: of California, Berkeley. And so a lot of my academic
Speaker 3: research and pursuits center around the topics of intersectionality and
Speaker 3: identity covering, and so the experience that you're describing is
Speaker 3: squarely in that space of intersectionality. Originally a theory coined
Speaker 3: in nineteen eighty nine by Kimberly Crenshaw from UCLA. It
Speaker 3: argues that these interconnected identities that we have impact either
Speaker 3: certain privileges that we have in some cases or increasing
Speaker 3: marginalization in others. This is the exact experience that we
Speaker 3: see with black women in the workplace. When organizations talk
Speaker 3: about women's issues, when organizations talk about making investments in
Speaker 3: supportive women, they're typically talking about experiences for white women.
Speaker 3: Rarely do they consider the intersectional identity of the approach.
Speaker 3: You can see this in the way affirmative action policies
Speaker 3: have been built up. The biggest beneficiary of approaches to
Speaker 3: affirmative action have indep been white women. On the flip side,
Speaker 3: when many of these organizations, especially those in the technology industry,
Speaker 3: describe experiences of people of color or underrepresented communities, they're
Speaker 3: typically talking about black men or Asian men, and so
Speaker 3: black women end up getting lost in where and how
Speaker 3: does this work is positioned. And yet that means that
Speaker 3: we're not able to effectively solve for some of the
Speaker 3: challenges that become impediments to her ability to be successful
Speaker 3: in the workplace. Take pay equity will We often talk
Speaker 3: about the gender dynamic and the gender pay gap, and
Speaker 3: yet it was not until recently that we actually started
Speaker 3: to dig into conversations that found that globally around the world,
Speaker 3: if we look at where white women are positioned relative
Speaker 3: to non Hispanic identified white men and then applied another
Speaker 3: layer to look at black women, black women sit at
Speaker 3: levels even below her white female counterparts. Furthermore, in terms
Speaker 3: of development, namely mentorship and sponsorship, she's often met with
Speaker 3: resistance in so many ways around the ability to grow,
Speaker 3: advance and develop her career. And what's more, when you
Speaker 3: add on macro political and macro social layers like those
Speaker 3: surrounding the rhetoric and sentiment connected to the Crown Act,
Speaker 3: that's where we begin to see the biggest implication on
Speaker 3: her experience, where she has to make a concerted decision
Speaker 3: every single day how to wear her hair to avoid
Speaker 3: being the recipient of microaggressive behavior at best, an abject
Speaker 3: discontent and disrespect on what the evolution of her career
Speaker 3: could actually look like because of how she wears her hair, which,
Speaker 3: as we know in the context of hair of politics,
Speaker 3: has so many deep connections to our experiences and identity
Speaker 3: as black culture.
Speaker 4: When we think about the intersection of what it means
Speaker 4: to be both black and a woman, she finds herself
Speaker 4: at this intersection of certain aspects of marginalization where she's
Speaker 4: fighting to keep up in so many ways to not
Speaker 4: only the status of identity and experience, but she finds
Speaker 4: herself competing with her white female counterparts because we have
Speaker 4: been so preconditioned to believe that there is only one
Speaker 4: seat for.
Speaker 3: Us that are available. I'll just add to this world.
Speaker 3: This is why even more when I talk in my
Speaker 3: lectures and the work that I do. I often say
Speaker 3: that to truly democratize diversity, equity, and inclusion, we have
Speaker 3: got to create equitable solutions for the most marginalized amongst us,
Speaker 3: and my work and studies we've discovered that is black
Speaker 3: transgender women. To find yourself at the intersection of not
Speaker 3: only trans or queer identities, but female identities as well
Speaker 3: as being part of the black community or black identities
Speaker 3: means access to things like environmental protections from an environmental
Speaker 3: justice standpoint, health equity, and the ability to not only
Speaker 3: seek care and treatment from folks that understand your experiences,
Speaker 3: but also the ability to find a job and not
Speaker 3: be subjected to under or underemployment, because what was the
Speaker 3: experiences of those The further you get away from the center,
Speaker 3: as Bill Hooks describes it, and the further you get
Speaker 3: closer to the margin.
Speaker 1: You've talked about growing up, you know, giving speeches in
Speaker 1: debate as being critical to your success. I want to
Speaker 1: hear more about it.
Speaker 3: You know, well, my family has a very long history
Speaker 3: of the speech debate space.
Speaker 4: My mom was a debater, my older brother was a debater.
Speaker 3: And so in high school I didn't really feel like
Speaker 3: I had a choice. It was just kind of what
Speaker 3: we do in this houshold, and it had the biggest
Speaker 3: impact on my life and career. So I went on
Speaker 3: to debate throughout my years in high school and went
Speaker 3: on to be a national champion debater for Rice University,
Speaker 3: and then went on to coach a number of schools
Speaker 3: at both the high school and collegiate level, including coaching
Speaker 3: a number of national changions. What speech and debate provides
Speaker 3: for people is the ability to understand the mode and
Speaker 3: means of effective communication, both verbal and written. It allows
Speaker 3: you to under stand what self expression of identity is,
Speaker 3: and it allows you to not only find your voice,
Speaker 3: not only use your voice, but leverage your voice as
Speaker 3: a means of having power and impact. The beauty of
Speaker 3: it is well in the DEI space, we often talk
Speaker 3: about this concept of giving us a seat at the table,
Speaker 3: and I've often challenged that because this table could be broken,
Speaker 3: this table could be being held up under the bottom
Speaker 3: by communities that we don't even see down there, which
Speaker 3: is the case with many fortune one thousand organizations, this
Speaker 3: table could be ratch. I don't necessarily need the seat
Speaker 3: at the table. I want the voice in the conversation.
Speaker 3: I want you to understand my sentiments, I want you
Speaker 3: to respect it, and I want to have the ability
Speaker 3: for my sentiments and perspective to be built into the
Speaker 3: way that this organization runs and thrives strategically and operationally.
Speaker 3: Speech and debate gave me those skills to understand how
Speaker 3: to build an effective argument, how to build sound logic
Speaker 3: and rationale, and how to combine those great theories that
Speaker 3: are so deeply rooted in the idea of public speaking,
Speaker 3: to eat those logos and paint those that make the ethical, emotional,
Speaker 3: and logical appeals. To be able to forge connections for people,
Speaker 3: whether I'm informing you about a topic, attempting to persuade
Speaker 3: you about something, or just trying to make you laugh.
Speaker 3: This is why I highly encourage especially underrepresented communities. One
Speaker 3: of the biggest issues that we face in both governmental
Speaker 3: spaces and nonprofit spaces, academic institutions, as well as in
Speaker 3: our companies is feeling voiceless, feeling that we don't have
Speaker 3: a way or means to be.
Speaker 4: A part of this conversation.
Speaker 3: It's why I encourage underrepresented high school, middle school, and
Speaker 3: college students in role in public speaking courses, join speech
Speaker 3: and debate teams, because the confidence that you build and
Speaker 3: the ability to find your voice becomes something will that
Speaker 3: no one can take away from you, and it becomes
Speaker 3: so highly impactful in how we lead and thrive over time.
Speaker 1: I've had this conversation with several people recently who built
Speaker 1: companies or you know, whether they be small businesses or
Speaker 1: tech companies, but in traditionally non melanated spaces, right and so,
Speaker 1: and I ask, I'm always interested in how they manage
Speaker 1: themselves in environments where they are not represented. Particularly, I
Speaker 1: was talking to Derek from Cloudy Donut about the Nonisota
Speaker 1: tooe y'all. I was talking to him and all of
Speaker 1: his donut shops are in white neighborhoods, and he was
Speaker 1: talking about how he doesn't assimilate. He is who he
Speaker 1: is and completely who he is. He doesn't change his
Speaker 1: the vocal tone of his voice, you know. And I'm
Speaker 1: so interested in your take on this because I was
Speaker 1: reading something where you said where I finally began to
Speaker 1: understand the culture to which I wanted to be a
Speaker 1: part of. I no longer had to think about this
Speaker 1: construct of assimilation. I could be myself and I think
Speaker 1: about this from a perspective of there's got to be
Speaker 1: some wisdom behind that too, because and I want you
Speaker 1: to correct me if I'm thinking about this wrongly, because
Speaker 1: I think about, yes, you can be you, but you
Speaker 1: can't just give sometimes you got to give doses until
Speaker 1: you've proven yourself in the room.
Speaker 2: And so can you talk about that?
Speaker 3: You know, well, if the question is that I always
Speaker 3: look like this, no, I don't know.
Speaker 4: Fortunate one dousand spaces.
Speaker 3: With rainbow locks and living my truth, you know, it
Speaker 3: was a journey of authenticity, you know when I think
Speaker 3: about assimilation. And I'm actually really thrilled to share with
Speaker 3: the viewers of this podcast. It's actually the first time
Speaker 3: that I talk about this publicly. I have just finished
Speaker 3: the manuscript from my book Dei Credential, which will be
Speaker 3: coming out this summer, and in DEI Credential, one of
Speaker 3: the pieces that I described is a definition for me
Speaker 3: around assimilation, and I posit that assimilation is a tool
Speaker 3: of the oppressor, which is utilized as a means to
Speaker 3: destroy culture and character, to degradate history and heritage, and
Speaker 3: to overcome the personal to the personality. With assimilation, it
Speaker 3: forces us to think through gaslighting techniques that who we are,
Speaker 3: that our experiences, that the loves that we have in
Speaker 3: life are bad, are harmful or negative, and that to
Speaker 3: truly be successful and thrive in a deeply capitalistic environment,
Speaker 3: we have to harness perspectives that shies away from what
Speaker 3: our actual cultural heritage is and moves toward or in
Speaker 3: service of, everything that the.
Speaker 4: Dominant discourse tells us it should be. Well.
Speaker 3: I have rejected this almost every single day in my
Speaker 3: professional career. It's hard, the dissonance that exists between trying
Speaker 3: to show up as somebody else, to serve a group
Speaker 3: of folks, just to get to that next promotion, just
Speaker 3: to get that next raise. You end up working yourself
Speaker 3: so much that the burnout both physically, mentally and emotionally
Speaker 3: becomes so deeply pressured. In the book, I write about
Speaker 3: this conversation of the emotional tax, also known as the
Speaker 3: black tax. It's this construct of working twice as hard
Speaker 3: to only get half the progress, or have to work.
Speaker 3: Here's the challenge with that. When I was going into
Speaker 3: workplaces very early in my career, I found myself giving
Speaker 3: smaller doses than I should have, and so I found
Speaker 3: myself in conversations that felt microaggressive, that felt incredibly disrespectful,
Speaker 3: that felt racists, that felt homophobic in so many ways.
Speaker 3: And I was working in big oil and gas and
Speaker 3: telecommunications companies, and so when you're doing professional services or
Speaker 3: client services work, you don't always feel comfortable speaking out
Speaker 3: about the behaviors of those clients because those individuals are
Speaker 3: ultimately helping the firm grow and helping the firm drive.
Speaker 3: By the time I jumped into the technology industry, though,
Speaker 3: will I changed my whole perspective on this. Now, let
Speaker 3: me be clear, a lot of folks will will walk
Speaker 3: around and tell you to be your authentic self and
Speaker 3: bring your full self to work. My full self did
Speaker 3: not belong in anybody's corporate space or anybody's corpus. Seting
Speaker 3: me after five PM is real fun and probably does
Speaker 3: not belong in the four wall on the corporate But
Speaker 3: what I did find is that authenticity is defining those
Speaker 3: values that are important to you and being unwilling to sacrifice,
Speaker 3: shift or move away from those values at.
Speaker 4: Eighty and all costs. And so that is what was
Speaker 4: important to me.
Speaker 3: And so throughout my time at Nike, for example, you know,
Speaker 3: I came into Nike in April twenty eighteen, Ball fade
Speaker 3: part on the side, still trying to relive my early
Speaker 3: nineties truth and by the time I departed the company
Speaker 3: in November twenty twenty two to launch my firm, The
Speaker 3: Rainbow Disruption, you know, I was walking around navigating the
Speaker 3: world with rainbow locks and dressing exactly how I wanted
Speaker 3: to because those experiences of growing up as a black
Speaker 3: man in Houston, those experiences in surrounding myself in queer
Speaker 3: spaces and LGBTQ plus serving spaces, those are all a
Speaker 3: part of who I am, and so they have to
Speaker 3: be brought in spaces because they're a part of that
Speaker 3: value set that I hold and that I support. My
Speaker 3: message to the listeners on this will and I get
Speaker 3: that what I'm saying is not easy. I'm not saying
Speaker 3: that you go to your job tomorrow and you're like,
Speaker 3: I'm good here, Thomas show up. That's not the case.
Speaker 3: It is a journey. I recognize and understand that. But
Speaker 3: what I don't think enough of us do is write
Speaker 3: down what those values are and then be unwilling and
Speaker 3: unwavering in the lack of sacrificing those as you navigate workspaces,
Speaker 3: even if it may come at the impact.
Speaker 4: Of your career.
Speaker 3: We are brilliant, we are great, and so understand and
Speaker 3: leverage that and recognize that even if that's not a
Speaker 3: great fit here, there's a lot of organizations that desire
Speaker 3: your talent.
Speaker 2: There is DEI, the role of death.
Speaker 1: I mean, let's be honest, who people decide to work
Speaker 1: with can be very personal. People like to do business
Speaker 1: with people they like. But part of the work of
Speaker 1: diversity is to show that people outside their bubbles and
Speaker 1: norms add value.
Speaker 2: But there's still that human struggle.
Speaker 1: Does the work of pushing require you to put yourself
Speaker 1: on the line at every time?
Speaker 2: Jarvis speaks on.
Speaker 3: It, It is a really great question, Will and I
Speaker 3: think it depends on one, the maturation of the organization
Speaker 3: in terms of their readiness for great DEI programming and work.
Speaker 3: And then two, it depends on both the resilience and
Speaker 3: impact of the leader. I'll say this hand or heart,
Speaker 3: working for myself now owning my own firm and in
Speaker 3: the work that my team does with the Rainbow Disruption,
Speaker 3: I am no longer bridled or stifled by this duality
Speaker 3: of having to force the uncomfortable conversation while also having
Speaker 3: to worry about the political nature of my own career management,
Speaker 3: having to think about if I give this leader this
Speaker 3: type of feedback which is necessary for them to grow
Speaker 3: and develop and provide impact in the organization, is that
Speaker 3: going to impact my performance review or my ability to
Speaker 3: take on my next role in the company. It's just
Speaker 3: not something I have to worry about anymore. And so
Speaker 3: I can show up and authentically engage with the various
Speaker 3: different clients, partners, and organizations that I work with, because
Speaker 3: that constraints not fair, like I'm not on y'all's benefits play,
Speaker 3: and so I can talk to you about what is
Speaker 3: actually necessary in your organization. You know, well, over the
Speaker 3: last three years, the term diversity, equity and inclusion, and
Speaker 3: when it's positioned to people, it's met with resistance by
Speaker 3: a lot of communities. And the reason that happens is diversity,
Speaker 3: equity and inclusion, when done right, is literally a challenge
Speaker 3: to the status quo. It is a perspective that says,
Speaker 3: the way that we have done things historically have not
Speaker 3: fostered the outcomes to which we desire going forward, and
Speaker 3: so how do we create points of intervention to challenge
Speaker 3: that systemically. As you can imagine, this causes a lot
Speaker 3: of fear to a lot of people because if you
Speaker 3: have built your career and your last three promotions have
Speaker 3: come via some connection to systems of nepotism that have
Speaker 3: allowed you to grow and develop, and now I'm saying
Speaker 3: we're actually going.
Speaker 4: To change that.
Speaker 3: We're going to focus on inclusive hiring measures where we
Speaker 3: have a diverse slate of talent. We're going to position
Speaker 3: diversity in our interview panels, and by the way, we're
Speaker 3: going to think about inclusive succession planning and how we develop,
Speaker 3: advance and promote talent. This causes fear with folks where
Speaker 3: they end up resisting the future state approach. It's not
Speaker 3: that they actually have a problem with understanding the car
Speaker 3: tours of diversity and what elements of identity is. There
Speaker 3: is a fear that if you change the system so
Speaker 3: much that I have been a beneficiary of, I now
Speaker 3: have no clue what approaches to advancement and development might
Speaker 3: actually look like. And so well, I don't believe that
Speaker 3: it has to be the role of death.
Speaker 4: Do I think it's difficult?
Speaker 3: Absolutely? Do I think DEI leaders really have to focus
Speaker 3: on the protection of our own mental health and well being,
Speaker 3: and organizations need to prioritize resourcing to support us absolutely,
Speaker 3: because the reality is George Floyd's murder was such a
Speaker 3: big moment that organizations basically starting to position the chief Diversity,
Speaker 3: Equity and Inclusion Officer and essentially a public affairs type role.
Speaker 3: You got cdios right now having to be the voice
Speaker 3: of response when there's an earthquake in Turkey, when there's
Speaker 3: violence in the form of war between Russia and the Ukraine,
Speaker 3: when there's continued conflict between Israel and power sign with
Speaker 3: literally every shooting and experience of gun violence in this country,
Speaker 3: the CDIO is now looked at as the voice of
Speaker 3: reason and rationality.
Speaker 4: There. That is such a shift.
Speaker 3: In dynamic to where now this leader is playing a
Speaker 3: role of government and public affairs without the accountability, responsibility,
Speaker 3: or the authority to actually make.
Speaker 4: GPA based decisions.
Speaker 3: They are having to opine on global sustainability based topics
Speaker 3: without being an expert in spaces of climate change. They
Speaker 3: are having to navigate conversations about social and community impact
Speaker 3: without overseeing the multi million dollar budgets that are used
Speaker 3: to be spent in these spaces for organizations to be successful,
Speaker 3: you have to understand the significant amount of work that's
Speaker 3: being put on. These leaders exhibit the grace with understanding, No,
Speaker 3: they will not create solutions in three years that resolves
Speaker 3: something that you have built over the last fifty seventy
Speaker 3: five and one hundred years in many of these companies.
Speaker 3: And so we have to understand how do we give
Speaker 3: the same rigor and intentionality to social innovation with diversity,
Speaker 3: equity and inclusion that we do with product innovation When
Speaker 3: we're developing that new app, piece of footwear or a
Speaker 3: pail based product.
Speaker 1: You tie THEI efforts because they can't just be tied
Speaker 1: to you know, this the right thing to do? How
Speaker 1: do you tie it to actual value and business goals?
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know there's a few things I think on
Speaker 3: the ethical argument for diversity, though, this right thing to do,
Speaker 3: this so called moral imperative. I don't think we can
Speaker 3: overlook that too much because a lot of organizations try
Speaker 3: to move so clearly to the business case, and when
Speaker 3: you do that, you lose sight of the fact that, like,
Speaker 3: there's a whole bunch of sociological, anthropological and psychological impact
Speaker 3: and implication that got us to where we are today.
Speaker 3: I need you to understand how periods and and development
Speaker 3: enslavement impact it. Jim Crow laws and policies which now
Speaker 3: impact how black communities show up each and every day,
Speaker 3: and particularly in the workplace. I need you to understand
Speaker 3: how the media is representation and raffine of certain stereotypes
Speaker 3: that impact underrepresented communities all come from the history of
Speaker 3: our experience. So we can't overlook that moral imperative because
Speaker 3: I argue, will it is the right thing to do,
Speaker 3: because we are better not saying we are better as
Speaker 3: people than another group. I'm saying, as humanity, we are
Speaker 3: better than the systems, tools, resources, and processes that we
Speaker 3: have chosen to accept that continue to put some communities
Speaker 3: out of the ability to equitably engage in society. We
Speaker 3: as humanity are better than the tactics and strategies being
Speaker 3: deployed by the current state of the criminal justice system.
Speaker 3: This is a topic that we've known for years that
Speaker 3: continues to have such far reaching impacts and implications not
Speaker 3: just on black and brown bodies, but black families, black men,
Speaker 3: black women, so on and so forth. We are better
Speaker 3: than that, and so we have to resolve that and
Speaker 3: so a lot of companies then turn to the business
Speaker 3: case for diversity.
Speaker 4: I will tell you well, I was very proud women
Speaker 4: get see.
Speaker 3: A company release the studies around this work in twenty
Speaker 3: fifteen and corroborated it into twenty seventeen and twenty eighteen,
Speaker 3: and then Deloitte and BCG added some additional imminence connected
Speaker 3: to it. However, the one critique that I've always positioned
Speaker 3: around the business case so called for diversity, equity and
Speaker 3: inclusion is that it considers this work in such a
Speaker 3: deeply aggregated nature that it doesn't force organizations to understand
Speaker 3: how their own history continues to contribute to the negative
Speaker 3: impacts and implications of the work. The business case in
Speaker 3: many ways would lead organizations to believe that if you
Speaker 3: certainly hire or position black and brown bodies in certain roles,
Speaker 3: you're immediately going to see this thirty five percent greater
Speaker 3: likelihood of financial outperformance.
Speaker 4: And that's not the.
Speaker 3: Reality of the case. If your organization has not done
Speaker 3: the work to shift your culture or the climate within
Speaker 3: your organization, this talent that you've put in role will
Speaker 3: not be set up for success. They will continue to
Speaker 3: be pushing up against a cement ceiling that has always
Speaker 3: been positioned against them. And then when you don't achieve
Speaker 3: those great business results that have been highlighted by the study,
Speaker 3: you can now not hold yourself accountable but rather blame
Speaker 3: shift to put it on that individual. And so will
Speaker 3: to answer your question directly, how then do we tie
Speaker 3: this to business goals? Goal setting is absolutely critical. Employees
Speaker 3: care about four main things in the workplace transparency, visibility, accountability,
Speaker 3: and belonging. I am a huge fan of the idea
Speaker 3: of consequential accountability. This is the idea that we as
Speaker 3: an organization have set a goal or a target that
Speaker 3: we want to achieve and there are consequences connected to it,
Speaker 3: not through the lens of blame, but through the lens
Speaker 3: of accountability. So, when we choose to tie executive compensation,
Speaker 3: for example, to growth and representation goals, or commitment to
Speaker 3: DEE education or advancement to community and social impact policies.
Speaker 3: In addition to that, when we set these goals, it
Speaker 3: needs to be specific enough in such a way that
Speaker 3: even if we put position and growth opportunities for representation,
Speaker 3: in particular for growth of women, in the growth of
Speaker 3: communities of color, how are we digging into that concept
Speaker 3: of intersectionality to make sure that our women numbers are
Speaker 3: not just growing because of elevation and promotion of white women,
Speaker 3: and that our people of color are underrepresented numbers aren't
Speaker 3: just growing because of the hiring and development of new
Speaker 3: black or Asian engineers. Rather, how do we understand both
Speaker 3: through pay equity, through core experience, through education, development and
Speaker 3: community that we're solving for those intersections of identity along
Speaker 3: the way that we're providing experience and pull surveys to
Speaker 3: understand that impact and that DEI has a place not
Speaker 3: just on the team and talent strategy for an HR
Speaker 3: or people in culture organization, but that it is positioned
Speaker 3: right on that corporate strategy for the organization. That's how
Speaker 3: you drive results. Will if every strategy coming out of
Speaker 3: DEI can tie back in some way to the core
Speaker 3: goals that the business is looking to drive from a
Speaker 3: strategy and operations perspective, That's where impact is created. And
Speaker 3: that is why I often highlight and lecture and serience
Speaker 3: that I do. I'm a business leader. It just happens
Speaker 3: to be that my field of practice is helping organizations
Speaker 3: realize their fullest social and economic potential through the lens
Speaker 3: and advocacy of DEI.
Speaker 1: You know one thing we haven't discussed here that I've
Speaker 1: got you for a few more minutes, and I want
Speaker 1: to talk about this concept of supplier diversity, right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So one thing many companies lean on as an excuse is,
Speaker 1: you know, black owned companies don't have the capacity, particularly corporations.
Speaker 1: You know, larger small businesses lean on that, yep. And
Speaker 1: how can they instead help smaller companies black owned companies
Speaker 1: build capacity versus count them out?
Speaker 3: It is so necessary, you know, the supplier diversity space.
Speaker 3: It has been around a really long time. In fact,
Speaker 3: work around supplier diversity has been around longer than a
Speaker 3: lot of the core team and talent strategies that we know,
Speaker 3: like the Rooney Ruler, the diverse later proch on the
Speaker 3: team and talent side. And so there's a number of learnings,
Speaker 3: especially from folks who I would consider absolute maven's in
Speaker 3: the space, like McDonald's, like University of Chicago, who continue
Speaker 3: to do such amazing industry leading work in this space.
Speaker 3: But you're right, will so many companies argue, well, in
Speaker 3: a competitive process of an R ANDP, we're just not
Speaker 3: finding enough black owned businesses that can support this work,
Speaker 3: and so you end up giving us the small contracts
Speaker 3: for things like minimal food service, occasionally bringing us in
Speaker 3: to do some content creation and marketing or videography work,
Speaker 3: where the big contracts are going to major technology suppliers,
Speaker 3: major marketing suppliers. For organizations to be successful, they have
Speaker 3: to move beyond the programmatic and truly go to the systemic.
Speaker 3: The programmatic is to say we're going to go out
Speaker 3: and create this list of underrepresented suppliers and hopefully they
Speaker 3: lay in we're going to try to position these black
Speaker 3: small businesses into these smaller areas within our company or organization. Rather,
Speaker 3: we should be finding ways to help them grow to
Speaker 3: scale and through the lens of sustainability, help them understand
Speaker 3: what results in a successful RP.
Speaker 4: Within your organization.
Speaker 3: Help them by positioning some of the smaller entities within
Speaker 3: your company or organization to be successful. For example, if
Speaker 3: we think about the footwear industry, while a vendor may
Speaker 3: not yet be perfect for Nike eight, could they do
Speaker 3: work to support the converse brand to understand the infrastructure
Speaker 3: around the organization but build from there. While an organization
Speaker 3: may not be fully equipped for example, to support a
Speaker 3: large retailer, could they work on one aspect of the
Speaker 3: merchandising space. That way they're knee deep in the ecosystem
Speaker 3: and growing and developing. And then what's more, how are
Speaker 3: companies actually investing money into ensuring that these businesses can
Speaker 3: grow by providing them core skills on how to effectively
Speaker 3: run a business. When you think about some of the
Speaker 3: major I'll even say Fortune one hundred companies, will they
Speaker 3: have some of the best communications teams, operations teams, supply
Speaker 3: chain teams, merchandising teams.
Speaker 4: What would it look like to.
Speaker 3: Have those leaders and their teams extend pro bono support
Speaker 3: and engagement with these organizations to ensure that their business
Speaker 3: model is air tight so that when they come to
Speaker 3: you a year from then with an RFP, they're not
Speaker 3: only competitive in the process, but we know how they
Speaker 3: grow at a scale. If your organization is focused on
Speaker 3: the impact that you're having in terms of carbon reduction,
Speaker 3: for example, to drive towards applimate change goals, make sure
Speaker 3: that you're equipping these folks with the knowledge upfront so
Speaker 3: that they're aligning their own approach to global sustainability with
Speaker 3: that that you have as an organization, and finally, we'll
Speaker 3: align to the same previous question that you asked around
Speaker 3: goal setting. We have got to set targets around supplier diversity,
Speaker 3: but I want to see disaggregated targets because a lot
Speaker 3: of companies will set one billion dollar targets five billion
Speaker 3: dollar targets over the course of a couple of years.
Speaker 3: If you dig into it, the majority of those funds
Speaker 3: are going to term women owned businesses, which is absolutely incredible.
Speaker 3: We do need to be investing even more significantly in
Speaker 3: women owned businesses, and in veteran owned businesses, and in
Speaker 3: underrepresented owned businesses. However, if we're not considering if ninety
Speaker 3: percent of those women owned businesses are owned by white women,
Speaker 3: and that none of the funding is being distributed or
Speaker 3: allocated to support Black women, Latino women, Native women, are
Speaker 3: First Nations women, or API women, we have not done
Speaker 3: our job effectively. We're giving ourselves a pattern the ba
Speaker 3: for what is arguably a participation trophy to make us
Speaker 3: feel good or better about what we're doing. It's often
Speaker 3: argued that disaggregation of data helps us to make more
Speaker 3: intentional and deliberate and accurate decision making, and so I
Speaker 3: implore organizations disaggregate it, hold yourselves accountable, and enable your consumers, vendors,
Speaker 3: and stakeholders to be a part of that journey.
Speaker 1: With you in the matter of respecting DEI expertise. Right, So,
Speaker 1: if I'm a business and I'm looking for a DEI person,
Speaker 1: how do I know that this person can actually do
Speaker 1: the job effectively one? And how can I be a
Speaker 1: respected DEI leader?
Speaker 3: I think on the first front, well, this is show
Speaker 3: topic ho you know. Following George Fwitz Murder, I saw
Speaker 3: a lot of organizations either go out to the marketplace
Speaker 3: to find DEI leaders, and I found others elevate leaders
Speaker 3: within their organization. Some elevated leaders that had a great
Speaker 3: experience in the space or at least knew some effort
Speaker 3: around how to drive great progress in the war. Others
Speaker 3: elevated leaders who simply had a passion for it. It
Speaker 3: is unfair to those leaders, you know, when I think
Speaker 3: about other functions within an organization, As I said, to
Speaker 3: drive DEI effectively, we must think about it and connects
Speaker 3: to our business strategy and business operations. In no other
Speaker 3: function would we ever take a leader and just position
Speaker 3: them in a role based off an element of identity
Speaker 3: and passion. Will I actually really like product development? I
Speaker 3: almost failed out of art class in eighth grade. I
Speaker 3: can't draw, And so my passion for design and product development.
Speaker 4: Does not mean that I could go and become a chief.
Speaker 3: Design officer at a Fortune five hundred company. And so
Speaker 3: the fact that we have taken in some cases it's
Speaker 3: very lackadaisical approach around just placing a talent in role.
Speaker 3: It's unfair to the organization. It's unfair to all equity
Speaker 3: serving communities that are part of that engagement.
Speaker 4: With the organization.
Speaker 3: And it's unfair to that person because when they step
Speaker 3: into the role and they are unable to be successful
Speaker 3: because they've never driven approaches that actually foster systemic change
Speaker 3: in this arena, we still point the finger at them
Speaker 3: because the accountability exists within them. All the other leaders
Speaker 3: will have absolved themselves of their own accountability and how
Speaker 3: they drive progress in the space, and so.
Speaker 4: That leader is ultimately unsuccessful.
Speaker 3: And so for businesses, I highly encourage them think about
Speaker 3: what engagement and partnerships, for example, what firms like mine
Speaker 3: might look like with the rainbow disruption, we can help
Speaker 3: that great DEI leaders for and with you, as well
Speaker 3: as help to establish the infrastructure that's necessary as you
Speaker 3: build your own strategy and operating model around engagement in
Speaker 3: this space.
Speaker 4: The whole goal is we need to be doing.
Speaker 3: This work to drive longer term sustainability and to ensure
Speaker 3: that we're creating measurable and monitorable frameworks to do the
Speaker 3: work even more effectively. And so organizations have to make
Speaker 3: sure that they are prioritizing both experience and knowledge in
Speaker 3: the space even more than passion and lived experience is
Speaker 3: critical though I see a lot of organizations promoting and
Speaker 3: elevating folks who do not speak from the community or
Speaker 3: do not speak from the eye of experience, and that's tough.
Speaker 3: It does not mean that these folks cannot as allies,
Speaker 3: advocate or access activists for.
Speaker 4: The communities that are there.
Speaker 3: But unfortunately, the black experience is one that is so
Speaker 3: unique in the United States and in various spaces. There's
Speaker 3: various parts of Western Europe, certainly South Africa, and so
Speaker 3: we need folks in these roles that can actually speak
Speaker 3: to those experiences, that understand what it means to be
Speaker 3: at the margin of experiences of racial minoritized status, to
Speaker 3: be able to actually impact change on the flip side
Speaker 3: for DEI leaders. Will I get the question a lot
Speaker 3: in my LinkedIn inbox, And when I do lectures at
Speaker 3: universities of a number of college students who are like
Speaker 3: I want to go into the DEI space. And I
Speaker 3: think part of it is rooted in gen Z and
Speaker 3: jen ALPA's strong knowledge connection and commitment to overcoming systems
Speaker 3: of oppression and resolving things like institutional and structural racism.
Speaker 3: And yet in most cases I tell them, don't do
Speaker 3: it immediately out of college. I think there is something
Speaker 3: so critical about getting experiences outside of this space, whether
Speaker 3: it's in HR directly, in marketing and product roles, in
Speaker 3: finance and sales. There is something so critical about learning
Speaker 3: foundations and fundamentals of how businesses run and operate so
Speaker 3: that when you do step into the DEI role, you
Speaker 3: can be effective and you can drive great work in progress.
Speaker 4: Now I get it.
Speaker 3: Well, that may sound a bit counter productive or counterintuitive
Speaker 3: to exactly what I just argue, this idea that you
Speaker 3: need to be hiring experienced professionals. My recommendation is entered
Speaker 3: organization and do a role in a different function for
Speaker 3: two to three years, and then step in as a coordinator,
Speaker 3: as a specialist, as a junior manager to learn the
Speaker 3: framework and understanding of the space.
Speaker 4: Read the text from.
Speaker 3: Leaders that are driving thought leadership and engagement here, follow
Speaker 3: the right folks on Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn that are
Speaker 3: positioning thought leadership on this topic, and then parlay that
Speaker 3: into a growth and development opportunity in the space. Furthermore, though,
Speaker 3: I highly encourage my peers and colleagues in the space
Speaker 3: that are chief diversity officers or DEI leaders, continue to
Speaker 3: grow in your own practice like keep yourself sharp. I
Speaker 3: talk to a lot of DEI leaders that at times
Speaker 3: I feel like they may rest on their lawrels of
Speaker 3: their experience from doing this work so well and for
Speaker 3: so many years. The reality though will is times were
Speaker 3: changing so significantly, and as gen Z and Janalpa are
Speaker 3: very actively and rapidly entering the workforce, expectations are different.
Speaker 3: There are many DEI practitions who have not had to
Speaker 3: navigate this construct of identity, for example around pronoun utilization
Speaker 3: and understanding how to create inclusive spaces for transgendering non
Speaker 3: binary communities. They have not had to navigate conversations around
Speaker 3: neurodiversity and neurodivergence. They have not had to navigate effective
Speaker 3: accommodations for individuals with disabilities.
Speaker 4: We all have to continue to row in.
Speaker 3: Our own countenances, to be sharp, to be effective, and
Speaker 3: to grow this work even more while also ensuring to
Speaker 3: protect our own well being.
Speaker 1: Black Tech Green Money is a production of Blavity, afro
Speaker 1: Tech on the Black Effect Podcast Network and I Hire Media,
Speaker 1: and it's produced by Morgan Debond and me Well Lucas,
Speaker 1: with additional production support by Sarah Ergin and Rose McLucas.
Speaker 1: Special thank you to Michael Davis sivin That's a Serrano.
Speaker 1: Learn more about my guests and other tech this refors
Speaker 1: and innovators at afrotech dot com joining Black Tech Green Money.
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