WEBVTT - Short Stuff: DNA Data Storage

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, and welcome to the short stuff. I'm Josh, and

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<v Speaker 1>there's Chuck, and Jerry's here too, and so's Dave and

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<v Speaker 1>Spirit and we're coming at you from the future of

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<v Speaker 1>right now.

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<v Speaker 2>This is one of those where it's so interesting, so cool,

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<v Speaker 2>so mind blowing and so promising, and then you get

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<v Speaker 2>to the very end and then you're like, oh.

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<v Speaker 1>To me, that just meant just give it a little

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<v Speaker 1>more time.

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<v Speaker 2>No, And in a lot of times that is the case,

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<v Speaker 2>and probably will be in this case. But it was

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<v Speaker 2>such a oh. And you'll see what in about you know,

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<v Speaker 2>twelish minutes what we're talking about.

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<v Speaker 1>So essentially, what we're talking about first is data. We've

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<v Speaker 1>got a lot of data. Like anytime somebody says something,

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<v Speaker 1>thinks something writes something down, somebody comes up with a

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<v Speaker 1>new recipe or a new patent or whatever, that gets encoded.

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<v Speaker 1>It's data that gets saved. We don't really throw stuff

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<v Speaker 1>away anymore. And so we're kind of a wash in data.

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<v Speaker 1>And if you want to take that data, you want

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<v Speaker 1>to save it, you want to preserve it. Let's say,

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<v Speaker 1>it's really like you're the Library of Congress. Sure get this, man,

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<v Speaker 1>I did not realize this what you do is you

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<v Speaker 1>take that data and you transfer onto the same kind

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<v Speaker 1>of magnetic reels that those old room sized computer mainframes

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<v Speaker 1>used to read and write data. Yeah, you put it

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<v Speaker 1>on tape, Yeah exactly. Well I didn't realize that, but

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<v Speaker 1>it's just the proven go to means of long term

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<v Speaker 1>it's called archival storage of the kind of data that

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<v Speaker 1>you don't really need to access anytime soon. It's called

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<v Speaker 1>low touch data. You're just putting it literally in cold storage.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, it's been around for a long time,

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<v Speaker 2>very dependable, very durable, very reliable. It doesn't cost a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of money. It can hold a ton of data.

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<v Speaker 2>One tape can hold between one million and fifteen million

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<v Speaker 2>gigabytes or one to fifteen petabytes. That's a lot of stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>Really.

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<v Speaker 2>The problem is, and you know it's all relative, but

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<v Speaker 2>they're kind of big, but not big big. They're three

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<v Speaker 2>inches by three inches and you're like, Chuck, that's not

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<v Speaker 2>very big at all, But that is big when you

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<v Speaker 2>talk about you know, potentially billions of these things and

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<v Speaker 2>having to store them in a place that is, like

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<v Speaker 2>you said, cold storage. So it's the cost of building

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<v Speaker 2>these cold storage buildings that is the issue. When it

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<v Speaker 2>comes to this three by three inch thing.

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<v Speaker 1>That and then also you know they've been around for

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<v Speaker 1>three quarters of a century, so we know they last

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<v Speaker 1>that long if you keep them in cold storage, but

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<v Speaker 1>we don't know exactly how long they will last, so

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<v Speaker 1>there's also a question of that. So that combined with

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<v Speaker 1>so cost questions about how long it will last, and

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<v Speaker 1>then also just the enormous amounts of information we're adding

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<v Speaker 1>every year are making people look for other ways to

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<v Speaker 1>encapsulate data, to encode data in ways that are cheaper,

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<v Speaker 1>that are smaller, that are require less money to keep cold.

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<v Speaker 1>And what they've come up with, chuck. For anybody who

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<v Speaker 1>has looked at the title of this episode, they won't

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<v Speaker 1>be very surprised. But DNA, that's right.

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<v Speaker 2>I know it's early, but we got to take a

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<v Speaker 2>break right.

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<v Speaker 1>There, right agreed, all right, we'll be right back.

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<v Speaker 2>All right. So you dropped a pretty big truth bomb

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<v Speaker 2>on everyone. I'm sure there are people that for sixty seconds,

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<v Speaker 2>where like, what storing data on DNA? Dude, that's in

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<v Speaker 2>my body? Like, what are you talking about putting data

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<v Speaker 2>in my body?

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<v Speaker 1>You got that straight?

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<v Speaker 2>You don't have that straight. But here's here's a pretty

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<v Speaker 2>good as far as how much this stuff can hold.

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<v Speaker 2>This is pretty staggering stuff. And this is from a

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<v Speaker 2>couple of dudes from the Los Alamos National Lab, and

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<v Speaker 2>I think you got it from Scientific American. Here's how

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<v Speaker 2>much DNA can hold. Seventy four million million bytes of information,

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<v Speaker 2>which is basically the Library of Congress.

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<v Speaker 1>That's a lot.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a lot. You can put that, if you were

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<v Speaker 2>putting it on DNA, into the size of something as

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<v Speaker 2>big as a poppy seed, six thousand times over. Right.

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<v Speaker 2>Said another way, if you split that seed in half,

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<v Speaker 2>you could store all of the data on Facebook.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and then by twenty twenty five, the size of

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<v Speaker 1>the data that humanity's generated, it will reach an estimated

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<v Speaker 1>thirty three zeta bytes, so three point three followed by

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<v Speaker 1>twenty two zeros of bytes of information, a lot of bytes.

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<v Speaker 1>If you can transcribe that all to DNA, you could

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<v Speaker 1>fit the whole thing into a ping pong ball. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>not a three by three plastic cartridge, multiple times over.

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<v Speaker 1>A single ping pong ball could hold all of the

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<v Speaker 1>world's data. And you can make multiple ping pong balls

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<v Speaker 1>as backups too.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and you don't need to. And it's pretty easy

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<v Speaker 2>to duplicate them, apparently, and you don't need to keep

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<v Speaker 2>them in the fridge, even though you could put it

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<v Speaker 2>in an egg carton sure and be set. You don't

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<v Speaker 2>even have to. It's going to last a long time

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<v Speaker 2>not being in cold storage, and probably even longer in

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<v Speaker 2>cold storage.

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<v Speaker 1>You could give a ping pong ball to every living

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<v Speaker 1>human to keep in their fridge and like it would

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<v Speaker 1>have no problem whatsoever. Be like here, you keep this

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<v Speaker 1>cold for one hundred and fifty years, and only.

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<v Speaker 2>Half of them would eat that ping pong ball thinking

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<v Speaker 2>it was an egg.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, so you'd still be left with all of

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<v Speaker 1>those backups.

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<v Speaker 2>Here's where it gets super interesting though, because you know,

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<v Speaker 2>as most people listening probably are, Like I said, as

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<v Speaker 2>I was read this, I was like, Okay, that's a

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<v Speaker 2>cool idea, but like, how in the world does this work?

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<v Speaker 2>And it turns out that it's not that mind blowing

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<v Speaker 2>your difficult I'm not saying I could go out and

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<v Speaker 2>do it, but it makes a lot of sense to

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<v Speaker 2>wrap your head around. Because DNA, as we all know,

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<v Speaker 2>is composed of four nucleotides, or at least combinations of guanine, thymine, addenine,

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<v Speaker 2>and cytosine. Just remember GTAC and attica. Yeah, ooh, ironically,

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<v Speaker 2>all this digital data though is included. That's out there

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<v Speaker 2>in the world and as everyone knows, and ones and zeros.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's it's you know, it sounds like you know,

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<v Speaker 2>and it can be any combination of ways. But when

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<v Speaker 2>you really break it down, it's really you can either

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<v Speaker 2>just have zero zero, zero, one, one zero or one

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<v Speaker 2>one as far as those combinations go. And that's four things.

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<v Speaker 2>And there are those four nucleotides. So if you just

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<v Speaker 2>like say, hey, each one of these nucleotides is going

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<v Speaker 2>to be assigned to different number, then that's all you need.

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<v Speaker 2>There's the key to your map.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so say adenocene stands for zero zero, and guanine

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<v Speaker 1>stands for one to one, and so forth, each one

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<v Speaker 1>stands for one of those pairs of possible combinations. Then

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<v Speaker 1>you can take any string of binary data zeros and

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<v Speaker 1>ones and turn it into genetic code based on those nucleotides.

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<v Speaker 1>So like you would just have you go from a

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<v Speaker 1>string of ones and zeros to a string of ATG's

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<v Speaker 1>and c's. That's it. The thing is is you're you're

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<v Speaker 1>not turning ones and zeros into letters. You're actually transcribing

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<v Speaker 1>the ones and zeros from binary code into physical genetic material.

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<v Speaker 1>You're actually putting a base of at Adenocene right there.

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<v Speaker 1>You're putting a base of thiamine next to it, like,

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<v Speaker 1>depending on how the code reads with the ones and

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<v Speaker 1>the zeros and what order they're in. You're actually physically

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<v Speaker 1>creating genetic material DNA. But rather than encoding the information

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<v Speaker 1>to building a living thing, you're encoding the information to

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<v Speaker 1>the entire catalog of stuff you should know. And honestly,

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<v Speaker 1>isn't that the first thing we should preserve in DNA? Sure? Good?

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<v Speaker 2>After the movies of Gene Wilder.

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<v Speaker 1>How about at the same time as the movies of

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<v Speaker 1>Gene Wilder, can we just agree to that?

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<v Speaker 2>How dare you?

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<v Speaker 1>Hey? I think highly of us and Gene Wilder. Uh.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know why he's been on my mind lately,

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<v Speaker 2>but he has been.

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<v Speaker 1>He's been shaking it for you in your head.

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<v Speaker 2>He's been shaking it for me. So this all sounds great.

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<v Speaker 2>And like I mentioned at the very beginning, this is

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<v Speaker 2>one of those things where like, holy cow, this is

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<v Speaker 2>the future, this is it, and then the L at

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<v Speaker 2>the end, and the L is that it's really expensive

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<v Speaker 2>to do this. Like, we can do this, we figured

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<v Speaker 2>out how to do this, it's possible, we have the

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<v Speaker 2>tech to do this, but that here's a tape name

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<v Speaker 2>lto DASH nine. It's a magnetic storage tape. You can

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<v Speaker 2>get it for eight bucks and you can get one

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<v Speaker 2>petabyte of storage. That would cost you about a trillion

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<v Speaker 2>dollars to do for DNA.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there was a guy who was interviewed in Ours

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<v Speaker 1>Technica named Hugh and June Park. He's the CEO of

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<v Speaker 1>a data storage company called Catalog, and he even estimated said,

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<v Speaker 1>let's say it cost you three cents to print a

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<v Speaker 1>single nucleotide. Yes, that's cheap, but for each base pairrot

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<v Speaker 1>now you're up to six cents. And then now you're

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<v Speaker 1>translating gigabytes, you're entering millions of dollars. So if it

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<v Speaker 1>cost millions of dollars to translate a gigabyte, it cost

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<v Speaker 1>trillions of dollars to do a petabyte. And the other

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<v Speaker 1>problem of it, too, Chuck, is that it's really really slow, right.

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<v Speaker 2>It's super slow. So this is a clear case of

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<v Speaker 2>one of those things like you mentioned, which is like

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<v Speaker 2>just wait, because like with any technology, it's going to

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<v Speaker 2>get quicker, it's going to get cheaper. I don't know

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<v Speaker 2>if this is like one hundred years into the future,

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<v Speaker 2>but I don't think at this point the cost is

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<v Speaker 2>just so outrageous that there's no government is going to

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<v Speaker 2>fund something like this.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, a trillion dollars for one petabyte of information

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<v Speaker 1>is not You're not going to sell that very very easily.

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<v Speaker 1>And then yeah, like I was saying, the speed, if

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<v Speaker 1>you're transferring information from one of those magnetic storage tapes,

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<v Speaker 1>you're transferring it about a gigabyte per second typically if

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<v Speaker 1>it takes even like a second to print a single nucleotide,

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<v Speaker 1>which is still very fast, but you're we're thinking on

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<v Speaker 1>human level fast. We need to think on like how

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<v Speaker 1>many ones and zeros are in the average gigabyte of code.

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<v Speaker 1>Now you're talking about decades to transfer a petabyte discs

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<v Speaker 1>worth of information using DNA technology. Yeah, so, yes, it's

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<v Speaker 1>very slow right now, it's very expensive right now, But

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<v Speaker 1>I don't think we're one hundred years off, Chuck, because

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<v Speaker 1>we're able to do this now relatively cheaply because the

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<v Speaker 1>Human Genome Project came along that was twenty years ago.

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<v Speaker 1>Think about how much, how long, how far we've come,

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<v Speaker 1>And this is like the hardest chunk the first twenty years.

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<v Speaker 1>I think it's just going to get faster and easier.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't think we're going to be waiting one hundred

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<v Speaker 1>years to see DNA data storage.

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<v Speaker 2>Does that mean that stuff you should Know is in

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<v Speaker 2>the hardest chunk when you're fifteen?

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<v Speaker 1>I think so. Yeah, it feels like it. Okay, I'm kidding. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm teasing Chuck, right, Yeah, just teasing, which means, of course,

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<v Speaker 1>short stuff is out.

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