1 00:00:01,240 --> 00:00:06,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I'm this week the Jetsons, flying cars 2 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: and batteries. Why are you Venkat driving us to so 3 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 1: many battery companies? Maybe I know a thing or two 4 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: about batteries. No, I mean the other answer is we 5 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 1: would have gone to battery companies whether Venkatt was here 6 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:33,839 Speaker 1: or not, because batteries are cool. But with Venkt we 7 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: get a level of level of fear in the companies that, oh, 8 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:42,599 Speaker 1: we're going to get like these hard questions. Because in batteries, 9 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:47,200 Speaker 1: if there is a breakthrough, you basically have about half 10 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: a dozen people in the world who can really get 11 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 1: to the bottom of it and say yes, this works, 12 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: or notice it doesn't work. And Nat, you're one of 13 00:00:55,440 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: those dozen people. Yes, this is Venkott Wisanathan, a battery 14 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: expert who I often turned to for help with discerning 15 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 1: good battery ideas from bad ones. Batteries are a crucial 16 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 1: technology in our zero emissions future, but batteries are also complex, 17 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 1: and many people use that complexity to create a hype 18 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:22,679 Speaker 1: around their particular idea of a battery, which turns out 19 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: to be bunk. Venkott is a professor at Carnegie Mellon 20 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 1: University and He's deeply linked to many climate tech startups. 21 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 1: He came with Zero's producer, Christine Driscoll and I on 22 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 1: a tour of startups in Silicon Valley last year. We 23 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:41,680 Speaker 1: traveled in Venkott's Tesla Model three for hours that week, 24 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: and we debated many things. One thing that we kept 25 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: coming back to was electric aviation. Even when the world 26 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 1: finally gets on track for real to reach net zero 27 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 1: by twenty fifty, we'll see emissions decline from most sectors 28 00:01:56,720 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: except aviation. Bloomaganny f s emitst that aviation emissions are 29 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: set to double between now and twenty fifteen. Venkat argues 30 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: that electric aviation, specifically powered by batteries, could help reduce 31 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 1: some of those emissions, and there are already dozens of 32 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 1: companies working to make electric aircraft commercially viable. I'm not convinced, 33 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 1: and I did give Venkat a hard time about it, 34 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: because one of the first applications we likely see from 35 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:31,920 Speaker 1: electric aviation is taxis. Flying taxis are just toys for 36 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 1: rich people, aren't take I see flying taxis as like 37 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: a roadster moment, like, did we really need yet another 38 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 1: electric sportscar? Probably not right, but the doy for the 39 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: rich people is what allows you to understand the technology, 40 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 1: and then once you get that, Venkat is obsessed with 41 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: building a battery that will power electric aircraft in overcoming gravity. 42 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 1: To fly a plane has to spend a crazy amount 43 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: of energy, and today's planes are able to do it 44 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: because jet fuel packs a lot of energy in a 45 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 1: small weight. Batteries are one tenth as energy dens, which 46 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: means you have to carry ten kilograms of battery to 47 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 1: displace one kilogram of jet fuel. Do that and it 48 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 1: will mean there will be no place for people on 49 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:19,119 Speaker 1: that plane. A battery that can power commercial aviation will 50 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 1: have to be heaps better than they're pretty amazing batteries 51 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: that we can already find in electric cars today. Making 52 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 1: that kind of battery will require many professorial brains and 53 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: many entrepreneurial talents. And though I'm skeptical, there is a 54 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: real movement in electric aviation. Bloombaginny F counts more than 55 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: fifty aircraft operators that are interested in buying them. The 56 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 1: total order book stands at two thousand, and because batteries 57 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: are useful beyond just transport, all this work will have 58 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: many spilower effects in other technologies. For Venkard, though, electric 59 00:03:55,760 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: aviation isn't just a debate worthy topic, he's divorce his 60 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 1: career to it. Later this year, he's moving to the 61 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: University of Michigan's Aerospace department, hoping to train a new 62 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 1: wave of engineers taking on this problem. So I wanted 63 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: to catch up with Venkutt to finish our debate about 64 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: the use of flying cars and to talk about the 65 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:19,039 Speaker 1: scientific advances that need to happen to make the batteries 66 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:28,839 Speaker 1: that will power up. So while we were on this trip, 67 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,280 Speaker 1: we talked about your vision of the future, which was 68 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: tied to the nineteen sixties cartoon TV series The Jetsons, 69 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: where people took all sorts of flying cars. Today you 70 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: call those ev tolls electric vertical takeoff and landing aircraft. 71 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: I mean, in a way, this is an interesting moment 72 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: to talk about electric aviation because George Jetson, the main 73 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:56,039 Speaker 1: character in the animated television series The Jetsons, was actually 74 00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 1: born in twenty twenty two in the fictional world. By 75 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 1: the time you Know The Jetsons was happening, he was 76 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: a middle aged man with two kids. So do you 77 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:08,039 Speaker 1: think that's the kind of time trajectory. We are thinking 78 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 1: about where people will be flying all the time. Yeah. Absolutely, 79 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 1: I think eventually, at the time when we reach Jetsons 80 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:19,160 Speaker 1: middle age I guess, which is around twenty forty twenty fifty, 81 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:23,160 Speaker 1: I think pretty much every individual would have three electrified 82 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: modes of transport. One is be an electric bicycle, electric 83 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:30,719 Speaker 1: scooter for sort of very short commutes, then an electric 84 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 1: car and a personal electric VAT doll electric vertical takeoff 85 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 1: and landing aircraft that could take them hundreds of miles. 86 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:42,119 Speaker 1: And eventually these ev dolls would probably cost about forty 87 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: fifty thousand dollars, just like the purchase of a car. 88 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: So I think we're not that far off. And actually 89 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 1: I think there is actually a straight shot from here 90 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: to the Jetsons future by the time we hit George 91 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: Jetsons middle age, a straight shot from here to the 92 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 1: Jetsons future. Is that what your new job is about? Winkett? Yeah. 93 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 1: If I didn't think that there was a straight shot 94 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 1: from here to the Jetsons future, I would not take 95 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: this bet. Now, when engineers say it's a straight shot, 96 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 1: it means that we need lots and lots of great 97 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: engineers to be thinking about this problem. We need hundreds 98 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: and thousands of people working on this problem. That's the 99 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: scale of the transformation that happened in electric cars. If 100 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:25,720 Speaker 1: we can enable a similar transformation in electric aviation, I 101 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:28,720 Speaker 1: think it is actually a straight shot from a technology 102 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: perspective to get to the future that the Jetson's imagined. Now, 103 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 1: we had this debate over the summer about whether or 104 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 1: not flying taxis cars our climate tech, whether they will 105 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 1: be real or not, how long it might take if 106 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:47,840 Speaker 1: they do become real, and we talked about it a lot. 107 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,840 Speaker 1: As you know, I'm still not convinced. But in the meantime, 108 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: you have gone ahead and made a bigger commitment to 109 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:59,479 Speaker 1: this cause, and you have taken a new job. Yes, indeed, 110 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: I have decided that electric aviation is the most important 111 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: problem that batteries, especially next generation batteries, can address, and 112 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: so I have decided to move to the University of Michigan, 113 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 1: which has the oldest aerospace department in the world, to 114 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: try and transform aerospace for the second century of aviation, 115 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 1: hopefully an electric future. And it's not the first time 116 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 1: you're trying to disrupt a university department. Universities are great places, 117 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: but they're also a little bit bureaucratic and stayed and 118 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 1: at Carnegie Mellon University you joined the mechanical engineering department 119 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: as a battery professor. Indeed, about ten years ago, actually 120 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: twenty thirteen, I was a graduate of Stanford looking for 121 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: a job, and I applied to various places in various departments, 122 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: including mechanical, chemical, mature science. And one of the key 123 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: things to a department is the kind of people that 124 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 1: you would attract. So in a mechanical enging department, you 125 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: would have people that are very excited about cars. And 126 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: in twenty thirteen it was not at all clear that 127 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: electric cars were the future. But I made this big 128 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: bet that the future of every mechanical elenging department will 129 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 1: be electric and in that sense, batteries are the new 130 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: combustion of the future. And ten years onwards, every mechanical 131 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,559 Speaker 1: eunnging department in the country has at least two to 132 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:36,439 Speaker 1: three professors that are working on batteries in some form. 133 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: And you could not today have a department that does 134 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 1: not have a plan for electric mobility, and especially try 135 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: to hire people that are working on batteries. Today in 136 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 1: aerospace there are zero people working on batteries or card 137 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 1: carrying battery people that are in her space department. And similarly, 138 00:08:57,960 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: ten years on, I hope to have the same impact 139 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 1: that I had mechanical engine department now in an aerospace department. 140 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 1: So now let's define what your new job is going 141 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 1: to be, and let's just start with defining what electric 142 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 1: aviation really means. Yeah. So electric aviation is aircrafts that 143 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 1: get their primary energy source from electric power, and that 144 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: could be in a few different forms. That could come 145 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 1: from directly battery powered. That could come in hybrid form 146 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:31,200 Speaker 1: where you have a regular gas turbin that is combined 147 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:34,319 Speaker 1: then with battery power, or it could have fuel cell 148 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 1: and fuel cells would use hydrogen. In that sense, the 149 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: fuel will be a different fuel, and ideally that hydrogen 150 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 1: comes from carbon free sources. Yes, do you remember the 151 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: moment that you realize electric aviation was the problem you 152 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: wanted to work on? Yeah? Absolutely. So I did this 153 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 1: trip in twenty seventeen summer from Pittsburgh to Palo Alto, 154 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 1: and so I did this in my electric car. It 155 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: was a sixty kilo or Tesla mardless about three thousand miles. 156 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: We finished the trip in four days. And what I 157 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: realized at the end of this trip was two things. 158 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:12,440 Speaker 1: One was it was quite easy to do this trip, 159 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 1: and the range anxiety, as I think many people had 160 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 1: described at that point, was not likely to be true 161 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 1: because the ease of this trip made me realize that 162 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 1: these next generation battery innovation that I'm working on, it's 163 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 1: not immediately obvious that automotive was the path for this, 164 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 1: and so I had this sort of soul searching journey. Luckily, 165 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: I got a phone call from Ashish Kumar, who had 166 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 1: then started a company trying to make hybrid electric aircraft, 167 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:47,959 Speaker 1: and I became fascinated by this because this was a 168 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:52,959 Speaker 1: clear space where I could continue working on battery innovation 169 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:57,439 Speaker 1: for the indefinite future, and there would be a market 170 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 1: waiting for every new technology that I could unlock. And 171 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: so that started my pivot to electric aviation. So it's 172 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 1: clear that we need to cut emissions from flying. There 173 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 1: are three ways in which that can happen. Battery operated 174 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 1: electric aircrafts, hydrogen powered fuel cell electric aircrafts, and sustainable 175 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 1: aviation fuels, which are essentially fuels that you use today 176 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 1: but made from a source that would be processed in 177 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:30,839 Speaker 1: such a way that there is no emissions attached to it, 178 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:34,319 Speaker 1: and so these are typically bio based fuels. You'll take 179 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 1: it from corn or sugarcane or something like that. Of course, 180 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 1: you're a battery professor, and so you were making the 181 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 1: battery bet here. But just from a theory perspective, why 182 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 1: is the battery bet the better bet? Yeah, so I 183 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: think if you can enable battery powered flight at the 184 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 1: same weight, I think it would be the most energy 185 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: efficient solution, assuming that you could make this magic battery 186 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: that would weigh the same amount as sustainable aviation fuels 187 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 1: or jet fuel. Now where of course, far from that. 188 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 1: So this is the journey I went on when I 189 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: tried to ask the question is there a pathway from 190 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: here to making light batteries that would have the kind 191 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 1: of transformative impact that we are talking about here. And 192 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: in that journey, we wrote this paper in Nature in 193 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: early twenty twenty two and the title of that paper 194 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 1: was the Challenges and Opportunities of Battery Powered Flight. The 195 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: challenge is obvious, right, So I think it's very clear 196 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: and very easy for anyone to state the objection that 197 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 1: batteries are going at a very slow pace. Right, If 198 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: you went back one hundred and fifty years. Batteries are 199 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 1: improving at the rate of two percent per year, and 200 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: two percent per year improvement is basically how much energy 201 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: can the battery store per kilogram of material used to 202 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 1: make that battery. Indeed, in fact, we start the paper 203 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 1: by the description of the LaFrance, which was in eighteen 204 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 1: eighty four, a dirigible that was powered by a four 205 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: hundred and thirty five clelogram zinc chlorine battery eighteen eighty four, 206 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 1: and that was actually one of the first controlled flight 207 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 1: and Charles Rayner, the inventor, said that it was only 208 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 1: a matter of time and money before electric aviation takes off. 209 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 1: One hundred and thirty years have passed, right, and we 210 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 1: now have lithium ion batteries right that are substantially more 211 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 1: energy dense than the zinc chlorine battery that Charles Raynar used. Now, 212 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 1: if you go by that logic, right, if you're going 213 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 1: at two to three percent per year, we have to 214 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: wait a few hundred years before you can get energy 215 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 1: density comparable to jet fuel. Now, if you actually zoom 216 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 1: in and look at the progress over the last thirty years, 217 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 1: you actually realize that it's growing more like four to 218 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: five percent per year. If you go from nineteen ninety 219 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:04,559 Speaker 1: when the lithium ion battery was invented, to about twenty twenty, right, 220 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 1: you know, it sort of grows at about roughly forty 221 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 1: five percent per year, And you know that doubling might 222 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: not seem like a lot, but just so there's context 223 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 1: around what doubling in rate improvements can do this century. 224 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 1: We are currently on a path of reducing emissions roughly 225 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 1: on about one percent per year basis, and if we 226 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 1: do that, we will breach the two degrees celsius paris 227 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 1: goal if we double that emissions reduction. According to a 228 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 1: new scenario that's been published by the oil company Shell, 229 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 1: just doubling the emissions reduction from one percent to two 230 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 1: percent a year will keep us below the two degree 231 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 1: threshold and help us meet the parish agreement goal. So 232 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: these doubling in rate improvements can actually matter a lot 233 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 1: when they play out over decades. Indeed, now if you 234 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 1: actually zoom in even more and zoom in over the 235 00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 1: last five years in twenty seventeen, the best batteries you 236 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: had then where about two hundred and fifty hours per kilogram. 237 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 1: The US Department of Energy launched two programs, one called 238 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: Ionics and another one called BAD five hundred, which shifted 239 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 1: the goal post and they actually wanted to double the 240 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 1: actual amount of energy contained inside the battery from two 241 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 1: fifty to five hundred what our sper kilogram. Fast forward 242 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: to twenty twenty three, you now have many credible demonstrations 243 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: of cells that can deliver energy density in that range. 244 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 1: We're not quite there yet where you could go and 245 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: buy an electric car that has a battery of that 246 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 1: specific energy, but it's not far off from when we 247 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 1: can do this. I think it's quite likely that within 248 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 1: a decade, maybe even shorter, right, we would be able 249 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: to get to batteries with thousand what hours per kilogram. Now, 250 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 1: what that enables is trips to the extent of about 251 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: a nautical miles quite easily. And you can ask the question, well, 252 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 1: will there be a limit? Right? Will there be a 253 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 1: limit where we cannot do this? And this is the 254 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 1: most important point, if there's one thing that I want 255 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: your listeners to take away. We are far from the limit, 256 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: the possible limit of the energy density of batteries. After 257 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: the break, we grapple with the problems that might happen 258 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 1: as this technology takes off. It's a difficult problem, that's clear, 259 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 1: and in some way you agreed it is a difficult problem. 260 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: When we were on the trip, you said, so it 261 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 1: actually aviation canonically, like everyone should be negative. That is 262 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: the correct perspective to take, because you know we cannot 263 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:07,159 Speaker 1: make them work. They'll come out heavier. He's not clear 264 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 1: whether there's a direct environmental positive impact. So all these 265 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 1: things are good reasons for not doing this. So what 266 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,440 Speaker 1: are the good reasons for doing it? The good reasons 267 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:21,639 Speaker 1: are exactly the same reasons I said or reasons not 268 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:23,400 Speaker 1: to do it, which is that you have to change 269 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: the game right, So you have to make sure that 270 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: they don't come out that much heavier, that they actually 271 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 1: can make a transformative impact on the emissions because you 272 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:39,399 Speaker 1: directly power them with solar power and reduce the amount 273 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 1: of energy used to fly. And so the whole game 274 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,399 Speaker 1: is to try and understand this from a system level 275 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 1: and try to clearly understand which aspects of aviation can 276 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: actually be disrupted by electric I think in the foreseeable future, 277 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: long Easton's aircraft white body aircraft will have to fly 278 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 1: with fuels, and that's the only way that we can 279 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 1: continue to have our lifestyle where we fly across continents, 280 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 1: that I can now fly from here and then meet 281 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 1: you ostrat in London. Those kinds of aircrafts cannot be 282 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: transformed to electric, but there is a significant opportunity for 283 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 1: smaller and medium sized aircrafts all the way up to 284 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 1: narrow body aircraft. Just so we have our definitions, four 285 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 1: to six seats is a narrow body, yeah, about six 286 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: seats yea, And then white body would be more than 287 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 1: six seats basically yeah. And another way to think about 288 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 1: it is the kinds of trips that you might take. 289 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: Right so, if you had a small regional aircraft, you 290 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 1: might take a trip from let's say Pittsburgh to DC, 291 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 1: short two hundred something miles trip. If you want to 292 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 1: take narrow body, that would be more like the kinds 293 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: of trips that you would take let's say from Pittsburgh 294 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:04,919 Speaker 1: to Denver, which is a few thousand natica miles. And 295 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 1: then white body is something that I would take. If 296 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 1: I wanted to fly from Pittsburgh to London, then I 297 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 1: would take a white body aircraft. By twenty fifty, when 298 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,439 Speaker 1: the world needs to get to net zero. The largest 299 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 1: sector of emissions is likely to be aviation, so it's 300 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:23,400 Speaker 1: clearly a big problem to be solved. But you mentioned 301 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: a few segments of aviation that could immediately benefit from electrification. 302 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: One of those is helicopters. Yeah. So helicopters are an 303 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 1: engineer's nightmare and of course people's nightmare, because they cause 304 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 1: noise pollution in the areas that people live in, they 305 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:46,679 Speaker 1: are inefficient for the fuel they burned, and most importantly, 306 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: they're unsafe because they have many, many different ways of failing, 307 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:53,639 Speaker 1: where just one part fails and then the helicopter fails. 308 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 1: What is the joke about helicopters. The reason helicopters fly 309 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,400 Speaker 1: is not because of aerodynamics, but because they are so 310 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:04,880 Speaker 1: ugly that the Earth repels it, and so that's how 311 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: they fly. To put it simply, there are two types 312 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:11,159 Speaker 1: of electric aircraft. One is a replacement for a plane 313 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: that requires a runway to take off, and the other 314 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 1: is called an ev toll, the electric vertical takeoff and 315 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: landing aircraft. That's the one that's a replacement for helicopters. 316 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 1: In both cases, electric motors make less noise and consume 317 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: far less energy to produce the same thrust. If these 318 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: electric aircraft can become cheap enough, they could eliminate many 319 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: of their fossil fuel cousins. If electric aviation only solves 320 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: the helicopter problem, will that be a worthy problem to 321 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,399 Speaker 1: be solved and dedicate ten years or the rest of 322 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 1: your life solving Blanquet, I think that is a good start. 323 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: I think if you are able to displace helicopters and 324 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 1: just the helicopter market is taken over by electric I 325 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 1: think that is still a worthy achievement. But I think 326 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,639 Speaker 1: once you do that, you will realize you can do 327 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:05,919 Speaker 1: things better. And I think that's sort of the journey 328 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: that we have learned in electric mobility, where nobody thought 329 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: that from making an electric sports car which was priced 330 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 1: at well ower one hundred thousand dollars, that there was 331 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: a pathway from there to a mass market car for 332 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 1: thirty twenty five thousand dollars. Right. So in the same way, 333 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 1: I think over the next decade, it is likely that 334 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 1: electric aviations primary focus is going to be in the 335 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: helicopter market, or the market where you have small distances 336 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 1: and people that value time a lot will be willing 337 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:49,879 Speaker 1: to pay a much higher price to travel that mile 338 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 1: in this case, travel a mile in the air and 339 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 1: displaced that helicopter ride. But this toy for rich people 340 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 1: then becoming a market product. It's certainly a model that's 341 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:08,199 Speaker 1: been successful. In the case of electric cars. You know, 342 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:10,959 Speaker 1: it's still not quite affordable. You know, you can't just 343 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:13,880 Speaker 1: turn up in India and get a mass market electric 344 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:16,919 Speaker 1: vehicle yet, but maybe that day is coming. It doesn't 345 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 1: seem unimaginable anymore. However, what it does do is that 346 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,400 Speaker 1: it will open up a world that wasn't being used 347 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:30,160 Speaker 1: previously to a lot more people. So instead of us 348 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 1: consuming less energy, we might just end up consuming a 349 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,239 Speaker 1: lot more energy. There might be a lot more of 350 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 1: these flying cars around city. Is the noise may be 351 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: lower relative to a helicopter, but there are not that 352 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 1: many helicopters in cities, and so suddenly you lower the 353 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: per aircraft noise. But then you multiply the number of 354 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 1: aircrafts in cities by a hundred times, and so is 355 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 1: it really worth it? Yeah, So this is a great question, 356 00:22:58,200 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 1: and in fact, this is actually one of the question 357 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 1: that graduate student asked me a couple of years ago, 358 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 1: which is that Vankaty, you work on problems that aspire 359 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 1: to have an impact on the net SERO future. So 360 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 1: how can you work on these flying cars? One framing 361 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: of that question is if you took that same trip 362 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 1: with an internal combustion engine car or an electric car, 363 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: would that consume more energy or less energy than a 364 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 1: flying car? Right? So the naive perspective, this sort of 365 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,920 Speaker 1: first order perspective, is that no way, right, the flying 366 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:34,400 Speaker 1: car should use way more energy than ground vehicles, right, 367 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 1: because you are overcoming gravity, and you're flying in the 368 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:42,479 Speaker 1: sky continuing to overcome gravity, and that takes a lot 369 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: of energy. Right. So here's where the answer is actually 370 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 1: quite counterintuitive, depending on the aircraft design. If you can 371 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 1: make an aircraft efficiently light and have good aerodynamics, you 372 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 1: actually can be compared to an electric vehicle and much 373 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 1: better than an internal combustion engine vehicle. So you actually 374 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:11,640 Speaker 1: end up producing less energy emissions for a trip. Of course, 375 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:13,680 Speaker 1: this depends on the trip length, right, So for shorter 376 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 1: the trip than you end up paying the energy penalty 377 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 1: for taking off and landing. But the longer the trip, 378 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 1: the more energy efficient a flying car gets relative to 379 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 1: a ground car. And so there is I think a 380 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: clear energy efficiency argument to be made that a trip 381 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 1: that you would take with let's say Uber Black, if 382 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,359 Speaker 1: it was displaced by an EV doll it would definitely 383 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: reduce emissions. This future is decades in the making. In 384 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: the meantime, Vencott is also the person who venture capitalist 385 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 1: call when they want to know if a battery startup 386 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 1: has a real breakthrough and can actually deliver the product. 387 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 1: And there are lots of companies promising battery breakthroughs. When 388 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,200 Speaker 1: is kept busy, it took a lot of phone calls 389 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,160 Speaker 1: on our trip, so I wanted to ask him when 390 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,640 Speaker 1: somebody comes to you and says, hey, there's this new 391 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 1: battery idea, do you think it will work? Should I 392 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 1: give this company one billion dollars? What do you do? Yeah? So, 393 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:20,680 Speaker 1: I think the difficulty in assessing a new technology is 394 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:25,440 Speaker 1: to view it with some optimism with a healthy dose 395 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:29,119 Speaker 1: of skepticism. And so one of the challenges when new diligence, 396 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: this is the process of assessing the validity of the 397 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 1: technical claims made by a team. When your diligence and 398 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: new technology, you have to be able to understand the 399 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:47,919 Speaker 1: core principles and see whether those core principles hold up 400 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 1: and whether there's a pathway to scalability. There are many 401 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,880 Speaker 1: many changes possible to a battery. You can change the anode, 402 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 1: you can change the cathode, you can change the electronite, 403 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,920 Speaker 1: you can change the separator, you can change the current collector. 404 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 1: You can change various things. And each of these things 405 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 1: could lead to a better functioning battery, and those would 406 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 1: have its own manufacturing processes that are required to scale. 407 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: And so the reason that I think I have been 408 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 1: able to address this is over my own career, I 409 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 1: have worked on many of these aspects, and so I 410 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 1: know many of the common pitfalls that are likely when 411 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,719 Speaker 1: you try and scale a particular approach. A large portion 412 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,919 Speaker 1: of the reason why I can quickly diligence different approaches 413 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:41,120 Speaker 1: is that they all have to sort of fundamentally satisfy 414 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,359 Speaker 1: this problem that I call the end problem, which is 415 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:47,360 Speaker 1: that they have to do all these things simultaneously. Can 416 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: you give an example of where this played out where 417 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 1: a startup had a problem that they really needed to solve. 418 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,639 Speaker 1: Either you provided the right kind of advice or you 419 00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: provided the right kind of talent that would help them 420 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,159 Speaker 1: solve that problem. One of the examples that I can 421 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,119 Speaker 1: talk about is a project that we worked with twenty 422 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,199 Speaker 1: four M technologies where the battery that twenty four M 423 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 1: is working on will be used to power those flying 424 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 1: cars to try and set a range record that these 425 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:20,199 Speaker 1: electric vertical takeoff and landing aircraft would now be able 426 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 1: to reach off the order of two hundred to three 427 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,439 Speaker 1: hundred miles as opposed to the hundreds of miles that 428 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 1: they're limited to today. So batteries consist of three main components, 429 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,920 Speaker 1: an anode, cathode, and an electrolyte. And the batteries that 430 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,719 Speaker 1: are used in lithium ion cells that are used in 431 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 1: your cars and laptops use a liquid electrolyte. A liquid 432 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,160 Speaker 1: electrolyte is much like you know gator rate, right, There's 433 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,439 Speaker 1: two main components. There is a solvent and a salt. Right, 434 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 1: So the solvent in your gator rate is water and 435 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 1: the salt is you know, some kind of sodium or 436 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 1: other kinds of salt. The same attribute is needed inside 437 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 1: a battery where you have solvents. Now, of course, lithium 438 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: and water don't like each other, so you go through 439 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 1: extraordinary pains as we saw in all of the factories 440 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 1: that we visited to avoid moisture. Right, so batteries have 441 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 1: nonequis solvents. That means those solvents that don't contain water 442 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 1: and a salt, and the salt is usually not a 443 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 1: sodium containing salt, but a lithium containing salt, and the 444 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 1: salt provides the mobility of lithium ions from the anode 445 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 1: to the cathode, a cathode to the anode, depending on 446 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: whether you're charging or discharging. So designing electrite is the 447 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: hardest thing inside a battery because it faces the anode, 448 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 1: faces the cathode, has to play nice to the anode. 449 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 1: It has to play nice to the cathode while performing 450 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 1: its main function, which is to transport lithium through it. 451 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: And this is an extraordinarily difficult challenge because the second 452 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 1: you change any of the components electrolyte that you used 453 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 1: for current batteries don't work. So you now need to 454 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 1: either change some combination of the solvents or the salt 455 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 1: to make this happen. And the challenge here is that 456 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: there are over six billion molecules known today and you 457 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 1: could use any one of them inside the battery. In fact, 458 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 1: you would use multiple of them inside, which means that 459 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 1: if you had to manually test six billion molecules, we 460 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 1: would not have any battery innovation. This is where we 461 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 1: have a needle in a haystack problem where you have 462 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 1: to try and find molecules from this six billion list 463 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 1: that can provide you the functionality you need and enable 464 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 1: the next generation batteries that we want that can store 465 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 1: more energy. And so this is one of the key 466 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 1: areas where many of the research innovations from my research 467 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 1: group at Carnegie Mellon and many of the innovations that 468 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 1: I have been able to try late through a Onyx 469 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 1: which was one of the companies that I had co founded, 470 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: which also featured on this podcast when their CEO had 471 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 1: a little bit of a freak event as his money 472 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 1: was stuck in this bank called SVB, which you may 473 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 1: have heard had a bank run and has now found 474 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: a buyer. A happy ending to that story, but it 475 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 1: was quite the story. Yeah, it was a quite stressful weekend. 476 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: But the point you brought about in terms of being 477 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 1: part of this ecosystem that allows me to understand what 478 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 1: are the problems that need to be solved, the people 479 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 1: that can deploy capital to help solve these problems, how 480 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 1: to get the time, how to get the patients for 481 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 1: the capital that is provided so that you can solve 482 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 1: these problems with the right level of teeming at the 483 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 1: right time and then scaling at the right time, and 484 00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: so being part of this incredible ecosystem has been a 485 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,960 Speaker 1: privilege for me and has enabled me to achieve things 486 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 1: that I would have otherwise not been able to do. 487 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: It's no longer impossible to imagine electric aircraft in the sky. 488 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 1: I still think these highly engineered devices are far away 489 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: from being a climate solution, but what I find interesting 490 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 1: is that the challenge attracts people like Venka to work 491 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: on it. Regardless of the future of flying cars, the 492 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 1: battery improvements that are bound to be made in its 493 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 1: pursuit will help other applications. For example, a more energy 494 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 1: dense battery will make electric cars cheaper and help homes 495 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,000 Speaker 1: generate and store renewable energy for the zero emissions future. 496 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening to Zero. If you 497 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 1: enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and 498 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 1: review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, Share it with 499 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 1: a friend or someone who is stuck in traffic for 500 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,720 Speaker 1: too long. If you've got a comment or question, send 501 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 1: us an email at Zeropod at Bloomberg dot net. You 502 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 1: can also tweet at me I am at Aukshatrati. Zero's 503 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,960 Speaker 1: producer is Oscarboard and senior producer is Christine riscoll. Our 504 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 1: theme music is composed by Wonderty Special thanks to Blake 505 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 1: Maple's Stacey Wong and Kira bin Rim. I'm Aukshatrati back 506 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 1: next week.