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Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing,

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Speaker 1: My chance to talk with artists, policy makers and performers,

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Speaker 1: to hear their stories or inspires their creations, what decisions

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Speaker 1: change their careers, what relationships influenced their work. If the

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Speaker 1: fashion world were a kingdom, Grace Coddington would be queen.

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Speaker 1: The English model turned Vogue fashion editor, creative director and

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Speaker 1: stylist has been telling stories through clothes since age eighteen.

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Speaker 1: Born in nineteen forty one on a small island in

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Speaker 1: the north of Wales, Grace Coddington moved to London as

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Speaker 1: a teenager. With electric red hair. She became a model

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Speaker 1: and took the fashion world by storm, landing on the

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Speaker 1: cover of British Vogue in nineteen sixty two, where six

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Speaker 1: years later she'd begin her editorial career as a junior

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Speaker 1: a fashion editor. Eventually, Cartington ended up at American Vogue,

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Speaker 1: where she spent more than twenty five years as its

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Speaker 1: creative director. For a master of style, Grace Cardington's own

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Speaker 1: aesthetic may surprise you. Well, start off with how I dress.

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Speaker 1: I don't wear jeans and things like that. I just

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Speaker 1: wear black. But I have a reason for that. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I have several reasons right now, I'm a little bit

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Speaker 1: older and my little bit fatter, and black looks better

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Speaker 1: on fatter, older people because they makes them look slim

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Speaker 1: and young. Yeah. But the other reason is that I

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Speaker 1: spend my whole life with clothes and looking at clothes

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Speaker 1: and judging clothes, considering clothes and making clothes form into

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Speaker 1: a story or something like that. So I want to

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Speaker 1: have a kind of clean palette on myself. So that's thinking, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's distracting. I mean, I I don't want to think

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Speaker 1: too much about what I'm putting on in the morning.

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Speaker 1: I mean that said I do change. There's an infinitesimal

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Speaker 1: difference between now and you know, five years ago, where

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Speaker 1: maybe the pants were a little bit wider, a little

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Speaker 1: bit narrower, the sweater was a little bit tighter, a

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Speaker 1: little bit, you know, and I wear the black version

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Speaker 1: of today rather than the black version of five years ago.

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Speaker 1: So but you asked, like, who wears fashion? Fashion? What

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Speaker 1: kind of people? What kind of people? Because I let

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Speaker 1: me just sayd the interject that I'm magnorant, because I

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Speaker 1: assume there are people who wake up and obviously they

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Speaker 1: have a budget and they go to places that make

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Speaker 1: clothes that are smart clothes that don't cost as much money.

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Speaker 1: And then there's people who are going by very simple

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Speaker 1: clothes and they get a nice blazer, and then it's

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Speaker 1: all been out a Republic khaki pants and white button

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Speaker 1: down shirts and some little menu of eyes. There are

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Speaker 1: options if you're not wearing a uniform to work, let's say.

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Speaker 1: And then there's people who have limitless resources and can

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Speaker 1: buy anything out there in the world that they want

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Speaker 1: in the world of fashion, and I'm wondering, are you

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Speaker 1: only making your clothes for them? No, I mean, I

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Speaker 1: think it's my efforts are supposed to be to inspire,

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Speaker 1: you know, to inspire people, and I'm hoping that people

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Speaker 1: will not just copy copier designers look, you know, Piece

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Speaker 1: for Peace. I'm hoping that they will actually put their

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Speaker 1: own personality into it, you know. And I think, you know,

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Speaker 1: when it gets to the magazine, you show it in

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Speaker 1: lots of different ways rather than just the way it

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Speaker 1: came down the runway, because otherwise everybody really would kind

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Speaker 1: of be dressed the same and it would be embarrassing

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Speaker 1: if you're just wearing black people don't notice that it's

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Speaker 1: the same. I think that, um, there's um there is

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Speaker 1: a very sort of ostentatious way of dressing it. Um.

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Speaker 1: It's not the kind of look that I admire or

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Speaker 1: but I do like people that have fun with it.

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Speaker 1: You know, fashion is something to have fun with. I think, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it is, you know, resources in the body. Well, I

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Speaker 1: mean actually a lot of people have fun who don't

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Speaker 1: have the body. And sometimes that's okay because they've learned

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Speaker 1: to deal with it, you know, but compensated. You know.

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Speaker 1: What I don't like to see is people that are

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Speaker 1: a little older than they should be wearing you know,

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Speaker 1: let's say, a very short skirt or something that's the Yeah,

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Speaker 1: do you have those delineations in your mind? Yes, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: yeah you shouldn't. I mean, you should be the age

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Speaker 1: you are. It's nothing wrong with any age, even as

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Speaker 1: old as me. You know. It's okay. It's funny how

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Speaker 1: you say that, because I mean, I have simple and

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Speaker 1: a very short I mean almost you could write it

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Speaker 1: on the back of a napkin list of my fashion

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Speaker 1: dues and don't for men, And whenever I see grown

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Speaker 1: men with a baseball cap on backwards, I want to go, oh, no,

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Speaker 1: you look like an idiot. Men's training to look boyish,

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Speaker 1: the same women slating straining to look you know, younger

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Speaker 1: than But I expect that more from women. Yeah, we've

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Speaker 1: been meaning that that women are constantly being abused, if

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Speaker 1: you will, by the notion that as they get older

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Speaker 1: they're less desirable. They're not as you know, young and beautiful,

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Speaker 1: and men trading in their wives for younger women. But men,

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Speaker 1: I don't understand it if they worry about it all

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Speaker 1: the time and then and then never again to feel

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Speaker 1: comfortable in their own skin. And I think that's such

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Speaker 1: a shame. I mean, I'm a great one for not

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Speaker 1: believing in plastic surgery and things. You know, you were

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Speaker 1: born in Wales and you grew up we were born

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Speaker 1: and raised on the island in Wales. Yes, for yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't him come off the island for a very

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Speaker 1: long time an island often yeah, but it was well no,

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Speaker 1: actually the island I was born and was probably probably

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Speaker 1: about the size of Manhattan. But um, but that was

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Speaker 1: off another island, so it was you know, the island

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Speaker 1: in Wales. The island I was born on was called

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Speaker 1: Holy and that's off another island called Anglesey where is

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Speaker 1: that what part of the country way north Wales? North Wales,

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Speaker 1: right off the tip. And you left the island when

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Speaker 1: you were how old? Um? I think I left when

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Speaker 1: I was about seventeen eighteen. I guess to university. Oh no, please, no,

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Speaker 1: I'm totally uneducated. Have no education. I have no education. Now.

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Speaker 1: I went to school until I was like seventeen and

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Speaker 1: a half or something. Did you graduate high school? Um?

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Speaker 1: Pass on that. I didn't care. People bear their souls.

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Speaker 1: I know, I know. That's why I'm joking. Actually, UM,

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Speaker 1: I got scripture and art. Yes, I went to a

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Speaker 1: convent and um, and it took me several times taking it,

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Speaker 1: and I got scripture and art. I'm very, very very

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Speaker 1: nervous when taking an exam, and I would sit down

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Speaker 1: at the exam. Um, I put my pen to paper

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Speaker 1: and I just simply couldn't write a word. So I

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Speaker 1: failed all my exams. You know, I was. I was

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Speaker 1: just like rigid with nerves. I'm a bit like that

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Speaker 1: talking to people too, So I warn you. UM, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm a little bit better now than I was a

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Speaker 1: couple of years ago. So when you're there, you have

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Speaker 1: how many siblings in your family? I had one sister

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Speaker 1: and a sister and your parents. What did your dad

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Speaker 1: do for a living on the island. My parents ran

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Speaker 1: a small hotel right by the beach. It was really lovely. Um.

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Speaker 1: It was kind of a holiday hotel that was only

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Speaker 1: open in the summer months of tourism there in the summer.

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Speaker 1: Well you know, bye bye bye Long Island standards now,

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Speaker 1: but by I guess North Wales standards. Yes, So they

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Speaker 1: had a business. They had a business. They had this

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Speaker 1: little family hotel that was right practically on the beach,

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Speaker 1: very small. I think about twenty people could stay. There

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Speaker 1: was fashion clothing. I mean I have only the most

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Speaker 1: tired images in my mind of it. Was your mother

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Speaker 1: into clothing or someone into your family or was it

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Speaker 1: Barbie or something whatever the equivalent was. I think, very

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Speaker 1: kind of fashionable in you know, my grandmother was an

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Speaker 1: opera singer. I wish I could sing. I wish I

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Speaker 1: got something from her, but I didn't. Um and um.

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Speaker 1: They had a sort of huge house on one side

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Speaker 1: of the island. And then m and my father came

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Speaker 1: from Derbyshire, which is northern Ish England, and they met

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Speaker 1: and then they they ran this hotel and my mother

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Speaker 1: was all the pictures I see of her in her youth.

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Speaker 1: She was very she was very chic. But she used

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Speaker 1: to make a lot of her clothes because I think

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Speaker 1: there weren't too many shops there that sold high fashion,

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Speaker 1: so so she she knitted a lot. She made her

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Speaker 1: own clothes, and she always looked amazing that I remember.

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Speaker 1: I mean, she wore suits and things. Although they know

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Speaker 1: it's way in the country, and it was very dressed up,

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Speaker 1: but it was that period, I suppose in the forties

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Speaker 1: when people dressed up, they conscious they didn't wear jeans.

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Speaker 1: I don't think jeans existed in those days. Well with

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Speaker 1: cowboys hurting sheep maybe, but I think all of us have.

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Speaker 1: Even when I was young, you know, my dad said

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Speaker 1: to me when I was going to I was going

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Speaker 1: to graduate from high school. And I grew up with

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Speaker 1: a big family and my father was a school teacher

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Speaker 1: and he had no money, you know, And he said

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Speaker 1: to me, we're going to go to a store and

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Speaker 1: we're gonna buy you a suit. And I bought this

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Speaker 1: three piece suit back when people still wore three pieces.

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Speaker 1: I bought a three piece suit from It was Pierre Cardin. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but this was a discount place they sold discount, but

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Speaker 1: even I could recognize what was beautiful. When did you

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Speaker 1: start to not agonize what was beautiful? When did you

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Speaker 1: start to decide you wanted to teach other people what

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Speaker 1: was beautiful and dress other people? How did that? How

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Speaker 1: did that begin? Well? I think it began because um,

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Speaker 1: when I eventually left home and went to London, I then, um,

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Speaker 1: I started modeling. So I was modeling for um ten

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Speaker 1: years or so. So I was very immersed in the

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Speaker 1: fashion world obviously there, and it was such a great

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Speaker 1: time of fashion. It was the sixties, ah, and the

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Speaker 1: whole ready to wear thing was beginning to happen, and

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Speaker 1: it happened very strongly in London. I think London was

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Speaker 1: a wonderful place to be at that point, and it

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Speaker 1: was you know. Then I started obviously getting older towards

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Speaker 1: the end of my twenties, and other people, like other models,

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Speaker 1: famous models like Twigi came along and so um, I

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Speaker 1: decided that maybe I should stop with this modeling lark

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Speaker 1: and I got offered a job at Vogue. So I

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Speaker 1: was pretty British. I was super lucky, and so that

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Speaker 1: was in when I started there. So so that it's

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Speaker 1: the way back. So I guess that's when I started

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Speaker 1: telling people how to dress. I slightly used to tell

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Speaker 1: people when I was modeling. It was a very different

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Speaker 1: situation then too. Now you know, they didn't have these

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Speaker 1: huge teams of people that they have now on a shoot. Um,

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Speaker 1: why do you think it involved that? Why are there

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Speaker 1: those huge teams of people? Know what happened? Um? There

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Speaker 1: so much more at stake, so much more at stake,

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Speaker 1: and time became money, and everything had to be done quicker.

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Speaker 1: And you know, when I was modeling, you would go

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Speaker 1: on a trip for two or three weeks, and even

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Speaker 1: you know, through the first ten or fifteen years working

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Speaker 1: at Vogue, and now it's two days if you're lucky,

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Speaker 1: and you don't get further much than l a because

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Speaker 1: you know, everything because everything is so so expensive. You know,

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Speaker 1: photographers don't have the time, models don't have that. Nobody

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Speaker 1: has the time. They don't have the time need to

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Speaker 1: be well that they probably need to be on the

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Speaker 1: other side of the Atlantic, and that happens all the time.

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Speaker 1: They go from you know, and they zip, well, it's

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Speaker 1: not even a question of going home. They barely have

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Speaker 1: a home. Those poor girls you know, they literally a

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Speaker 1: ripped from one airport to another and leap off a plane,

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Speaker 1: are expected to look beautiful, and you have twenty four

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Speaker 1: hours to Only you with any authority could say those

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Speaker 1: poor girls, Well I've been in that position, those poor girls.

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Speaker 1: You know. I've been in that position, so I know

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Speaker 1: how tough it is, even if you're eighteen or whatever

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Speaker 1: to get off a plane you've been flying for and

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Speaker 1: feel fresh and you know, and everybody looking at you

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Speaker 1: and expecting, and you know, I personally get off a

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Speaker 1: flight and I feel all sort of puffy. And we're

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Speaker 1: a little older than those girls. Yes I am. If

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Speaker 1: you started in British Vogue what year so you're there in,

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Speaker 1: how would you describe it? I only have ignorant references

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Speaker 1: to like swing in London and what London was like

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Speaker 1: that that was, you know, kind of full on swing

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Speaker 1: while it was even it had been for a while.

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Speaker 1: It was through the sixties, swinging cultural epicenter, music, art, fashion, everything.

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Speaker 1: That's what was so fantastic. It was all relating to fashion,

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Speaker 1: you know, it was everything was into relating fashion, and

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Speaker 1: you know all that pop music and things are so great. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: well yeah, in this country, in the sixties, they shot

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Speaker 1: the president, they shot his brother, and they shot Martin

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Speaker 1: Luther King. Yeah that was over here, so London. You

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Speaker 1: were having a good time and we were all having

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Speaker 1: a great time, and we barely heard about that. You know,

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Speaker 1: what kind of work were you doing at British Vogue?

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Speaker 1: The same as I'm doing here. I was literally yeah,

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Speaker 1: that was a fashion show. You started out as a fashioned,

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Speaker 1: as a junior fashion editor, which simply meant I went

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Speaker 1: a little slower than other people. And then I became

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Speaker 1: a regular fashion editor, and um, then I was kind

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Speaker 1: of the fashion editor, somewhat in charge, you know, the

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Speaker 1: main one there for quite some time. And you were

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Speaker 1: a British folk till when um I was there until

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Speaker 1: I think, yeah, I have seven You moved from London

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Speaker 1: to New York. Whose idea was that, um, Calvin Klein, Um, Well,

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Speaker 1: a lot of things kind of fell into place. UM.

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Speaker 1: I had lost my mother shortly before, so until that time,

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Speaker 1: I always felt I couldn't they still in Wales. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: yes she was. Um. I had a nephew that I

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Speaker 1: was bringing up and he was like twenty, so I

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Speaker 1: felt I could leave. And I always wanted to come

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Speaker 1: to America. Not always, but in the last of those

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Speaker 1: three years in England, Um, I started looking to America

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Speaker 1: and what was happening here and working with American photographers

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Speaker 1: and namely Bruce Bruce Webber. Actually he's the one that

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Speaker 1: kind of introduced me to this country, to the culture,

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Speaker 1: to everything really, and I became really excited with it.

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Speaker 1: And I also had a boyfriend who lived here, so

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Speaker 1: I was kind of looking to come here. And it

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Speaker 1: was a time where the editors changed at British Folk,

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Speaker 1: and actually Anna Winter went there as as the editor,

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Speaker 1: and she'd been a friend of mine for years, so

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Speaker 1: that was kind of great that she came. But I

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Speaker 1: just thought it was a good moment to move and

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Speaker 1: I got offered this fantastic job at Calvin Klein. Like Calvin,

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Speaker 1: I'm doing what I was. I was called design director,

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Speaker 1: but I mean I wasn't designing. I was just UM

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Speaker 1: in the design room working with all the team of people.

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Speaker 1: And when the decision for Calvin for you to come here,

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Speaker 1: so your British Vogue to working for a designer. You're

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Speaker 1: out of Vogue publishing for a while, right, And how

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Speaker 1: long are you with Calvin? Not very long? Because I

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Speaker 1: really missed publishing. I mean, I I a do a Calvin.

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Speaker 1: He's fantastic and he's you know, they're still good friends,

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Speaker 1: and but I really missed. They involved doing a lot

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Speaker 1: of different things, and um, I just felt that being

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Speaker 1: in the same place and working with the same person,

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Speaker 1: it was it was just not for me. And I

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Speaker 1: don't think I was doing them any favors. How long

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Speaker 1: did that last? A year and a half? Brief? And

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Speaker 1: was the Vogue operation in the US had open arms

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Speaker 1: for you, they were ready. Well what happened was right

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Speaker 1: at that time is um Anna was given was made

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Speaker 1: editor in chief of So you know, as soon as

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Speaker 1: I got that news, I'm like yeah, And I called

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Speaker 1: her up and said, um could I have my old

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Speaker 1: job back, but at American back? And she said she

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Speaker 1: was like very immediately she is I mean, I don't

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Speaker 1: know if you know her at all, but because she's

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Speaker 1: you know, she doesn't did it around. She's she's very

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Speaker 1: decisive and no kidding. She immediately said, yeah, I'm starting

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Speaker 1: on Monday. Do you want to start with me? So

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Speaker 1: I did? She was it timed up when she was

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Speaker 1: crossing over, you were walking the door with her. Amazing

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Speaker 1: and that was close. Yeah, yeah, it was. I'm not

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Speaker 1: interested truly, and I'm loath to talk about she's a

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Speaker 1: counterpart if you were to talk about Anna in the

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Speaker 1: way that she's scrutinized in the media and so forth.

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Speaker 1: But why do you think it was Anna viewed to

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Speaker 1: forget about who she is and what her contribution to

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Speaker 1: this is. But was she viewed the same over there

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Speaker 1: as she was in the US, or when Anna came

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Speaker 1: over to the US, did a different woman emerge? Because

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Speaker 1: I was invited to have dinner at her house and

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Speaker 1: I went with my wife and I She had a

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Speaker 1: twenty people over to her house down there, and I

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Speaker 1: was so thrilled because I was amazing host right that

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Speaker 1: she was lovely, She's incredibly warm, and she's a fantastic host,

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Speaker 1: and she makes everybody down to the smallest person feel

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Speaker 1: you know, important and at home and things like that.

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Speaker 1: So you know, she's this other persona that everybody seems

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Speaker 1: to have about her. Is it's wrong? But I mean

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Speaker 1: that said, is she at as your vogue And that's

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Speaker 1: a big deal thing, you know, So before you even start,

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Speaker 1: as you walk in the room, that's who you're going

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Speaker 1: to meet with. Those responsibilities and that mantle too. You know.

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Speaker 1: You know, I think she can be intimidating to people.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I've just known her so long, so we

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Speaker 1: get on really well. You know. That's not to say

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Speaker 1: that I can push her push you know, push her around.

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Speaker 1: I can't. Um, But um, I was hope. I was

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Speaker 1: hoping you were going to say that you can. And

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Speaker 1: how we play games with each other, I think a

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Speaker 1: little bit, you know, Um, But at the end of

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Speaker 1: the day, we respect each other. But you know, I

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Speaker 1: push her as hard as I can, and she pushes

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Speaker 1: me as hard as she can, you know, And it's

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Speaker 1: a good game because you know, I think what comes

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Speaker 1: out of it is something that's quite strong. Coming up,

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Speaker 1: Grace Coddington talks about the one group of people she

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Speaker 1: won't dress. As Cottington was making fashion come off the

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Speaker 1: pages of American Vogue in the late nine nineties, a

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Speaker 1: fictional TV character named Carrie Bradshaw was taking it to

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Speaker 1: the streets. In the very beginning, we couldn't get our

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Speaker 1: hands on anything. Nobody wanted to give us a thing, nobody,

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Speaker 1: and we had a teeny teeny teeny. We talked about animic.

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Speaker 1: We had a tiny tiny budget for the whole per episode,

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Speaker 1: and it was about I think towards the end of

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Speaker 1: the second or even the beginning of third season. I

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Speaker 1: can't remember which that it was Fandy that loaned us

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Speaker 1: a baguette and that was like the gateway. That was,

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Speaker 1: you know, the floodwaters. Everything shifted to hear Sarah Jessica

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Speaker 1: Parker reflect on the Sex and the City years. Take

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Speaker 1: a listen and here's the thing. Dot Org. This is

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Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin and you're listening to here's the thing. Grace

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Speaker 1: Cottington is the closest thing to fashion royalty that there

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Speaker 1: is a successful British model turned fashion editor and creative

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Speaker 1: director of American Vogue for more than two decades. But

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Speaker 1: beneath her porcelain skin and iconic red hair, Cottington is

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Speaker 1: still a shy English girl with a dream, pushing herself

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Speaker 1: and everyone around her to aim higher. Much of her

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Speaker 1: work can be seen in her most recent book, Grace

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Speaker 1: the American Vogue Years. There are listeners can't see me

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Speaker 1: do this, but I'm leaving through this book of yours

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Speaker 1: and I want to go, who's this photographer for hair?

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Speaker 1: Stephen mizel Is. There is Mizelle. I mean, I look

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Speaker 1: at a picture like that which I can't describe to

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Speaker 1: our That was the whole story we did on the twenties.

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Speaker 1: And actually that's the story that UM appeared in the

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Speaker 1: film that kind of made people know who I was

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Speaker 1: the September issue, and that's that's the story that I

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Speaker 1: am fighting for. One picture which is also in the

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Speaker 1: book and I printed in the book, but it never

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Speaker 1: made it in the magazine. Um, I'm fighting to keep

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Speaker 1: this picture in and no, not that one. It's another

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Speaker 1: one in the same story, UM, which it's all about

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Speaker 1: the twenties, that story, and in September issue, you're fighting

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Speaker 1: to keep this, to keep this one picture, I think

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Speaker 1: it's the other way. You have to thumb the other way,

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Speaker 1: and that's to keep And then, well, now I'm looking

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Speaker 1: at it and I think, you know, maybe I shouldn't

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Speaker 1: have put it in the book. I could not decide

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Speaker 1: whether to put it in the book because largely everything

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Speaker 1: in the book has been printed in the magazine, and

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Speaker 1: it takes on once it's been printed. It takes on

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Speaker 1: another life. Somehow, people recognize it, they know it, the

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Speaker 1: picture becomes stronger because of it or whatever. So it's

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Speaker 1: a funny thing. If they haven't, if it hasn't actually

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Speaker 1: been printed, usually they disappeared into no man's land. But

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Speaker 1: because of the movie, and I keep holding this picture

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Speaker 1: up and you know, shouting and screaming and stamping my

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Speaker 1: foot and complaining that it's been thrown out. But now

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Speaker 1: as I look at it, and I look at that picture,

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Speaker 1: for instance, to compared to the one over the page

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Speaker 1: that you were looking at before the two ladies, which

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Speaker 1: is part of the same story, the other picture is

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Speaker 1: so much better, you know, it's more. Ultimately, all I

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Speaker 1: can say is maybe, you know, maybe Annah was right,

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Speaker 1: and she may which maybe Anna was right when she

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Speaker 1: threw it out. Homogeneity of expression. All these women seem

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Speaker 1: to be going through the same thing. When I connect

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Speaker 1: with it, it's it's because I'm not into the clothing,

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Speaker 1: women's clothing. I look at all this time, I go, oh,

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Speaker 1: that all looks you know, I guess that turns on

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Speaker 1: some kind of women should go for that. And I'm

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Speaker 1: looking at the faces of these people who are obviously

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Speaker 1: they're there for a reason, like, is there ever an

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Speaker 1: idea that you're going to have clothing modeled by people

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Speaker 1: when you cut the heads off, and don't even bother

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Speaker 1: involving the expression of a woman's face. I think that, yes,

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Speaker 1: And it's really important. I mean, for me, the casting

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Speaker 1: of a photograph is the most important part of it,

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Speaker 1: you know. So I see this and I go, oh

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Speaker 1: my god, like look at her, you know, I mean,

404
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Speaker 1: how compelling, how strong, and all the whole thing is

405
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Speaker 1: just it's all of one and the colors and the

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Speaker 1: lipstick and the eyes, and I'm like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: that's just gorgeous. The minesel that's here that I favored,

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Speaker 1: the two women in the in the in the in

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Speaker 1: the bar or whatever. The twenty shot that was shot

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Speaker 1: where oh here in New York. And how long did

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Speaker 1: it take to shoot that that one? Well, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's always a series of pictures. It's like twelve fourteen

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Speaker 1: pages or something, so that I think that was maybe

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Speaker 1: a three day shoot a little bit, but you know

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Speaker 1: these days it's never more than two days. The actual

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Speaker 1: picture probably took I don't know, half an hour. Now.

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Speaker 1: The obviously for that part of the process, well, obviously

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Speaker 1: when you're you're including the faces and the and the mask,

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Speaker 1: if you will, of the of the model and the

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Speaker 1: work you do. Are there some women you've seen over

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Speaker 1: the arc of your nearly fifty year career. I mean,

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Speaker 1: when was the time you walk through the room and

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Speaker 1: even just to yourself, said, oh my god, look at

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Speaker 1: that woman. Miss you just really is such a creature.

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Speaker 1: It does happen. No, no, no, it does give me one.

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Speaker 1: It's probably not walking in a room. Um, you know,

427
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 1: I I recognized the beauties from I don't know, the

428
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 1: runway or somewhere like that, or from other photographs maybe,

429
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:11,159
Speaker 1: But who's the most I wouldn't the most, but no, no,

430
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:16,639
Speaker 1: who's the newest person that I'm intrigued by. It's a

431
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:21,639
Speaker 1: young model called Natalie Westling West. Yeah, and then everybody

432
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 1: will say she's she's an American. Um, but everybody thinks

433
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 1: I only like her because she has a ton of

434
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 1: red hair. So and so I suffer because I tend

435
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 1: to like girls with red hair. It's just something I

436
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 1: like about the coloring. So when a red haired person

437
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,640
Speaker 1: walks by, I do notice them. Do you ever think

438
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 1: about dressing men? And well, I have to, particularly if

439
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,679
Speaker 1: you work with Bruce, you do, you know, But I

440
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,440
Speaker 1: usually actually in that case let him dress them because

441
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 1: he's much better at it than me. I'm incredibly bad

442
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 1: at dressing man. It scares me to dressed man. I mean,

443
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 1: I know, I don't know why. I just I can't.

444
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 1: I can't from something hanging on a hangar, see whether

445
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 1: it's going to work on the guy or not. You know,

446
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:18,400
Speaker 1: I am when they're actually dressed in it, someone else

447
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 1: has dressed them. I say, they either look right or

448
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 1: they don't. But but um, you know, I tend to

449
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 1: not like men to be too dressed up like a thing.

450
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 1: I like them fantasy about simple. I have a fantasy

451
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 1: about Anna. I have a fantasy that Anna was, assuming

452
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,479
Speaker 1: she was married, she has a daughter. Assume that if

453
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 1: you dated Anna it would be just. It could be

454
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 1: potentially painful. She'd be like, oh, Frank, don't wear that.

455
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 1: Shut I'm not sure how she's right or whatever. That

456
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 1: she gets involved in how we dress men in Vogue.

457
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 1: Of course she does. The men are secondary in Vogue.

458
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 1: The men are extras and there, and they're don't tell

459
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 1: them that, I mean less. They get like it's a

460
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 1: celebrity get only celebrity men. Get into voke that we

461
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 1: don't work with male models at all, not even as

462
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 1: props standing behind other women now truly true, true if

463
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 1: you look through all those every time. As a famous guy, yeah,

464
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 1: he's usually an actor. Actors do it better, you know

465
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 1: then then, I mean better than you know. I worked

466
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 1: with musicians too, but they're not used to being photographed

467
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 1: or whatever, So it's easier to work with an actor.

468
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 1: Why don't you get male models in there? Why they're

469
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 1: used to having their picture taken? I know they are,

470
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:45,719
Speaker 1: but they're probably grateful, boring. You know that you get

471
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 1: much more out of an actor, and there's a story

472
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: to tell behind him. You know, that's always good too.

473
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 1: I mean we work with people who have a film

474
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 1: it's just about to come out or whatever. You know,

475
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 1: there's usually a promotional otherwise they would never do. I

476
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 1: don't think it's their favorite thing to do unless they're

477
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 1: very young. When they're very young, it's it's kind of fine.

478
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 1: I guess the term that's used to describe the work

479
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 1: you do typically as editor, and so how would you

480
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 1: describe it? What does it? What does an editor do? Um?

481
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 1: What do I do? Yeah? We we do a lot

482
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 1: of things. I mean editing is a small part of it.

483
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 1: You know, we edit, you edit the clothes down to

484
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 1: the ones that you want to photograph. Um And everything

485
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 1: is around organizing a photographic shoots. So but we also

486
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 1: know choose models, and choose photographers and choose the story

487
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 1: we want to do. So it's not just cutting things down,

488
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 1: it's also creating things. Who decides is on the cover

489
00:30:55,240 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 1: of the magazine, um Anna, ultim you know, for every

490
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 1: page of the magazine because ultimately it's it's done with

491
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 1: her knowledge and obviously collaboration. So so ultimately it's the

492
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 1: editor in chief of the magazine that makes the final decision,

493
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 1: but also contributes along the way. You know, she doesn't

494
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 1: We don't just do it and present it to her

495
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 1: and she says yes or no. It's it's discussed all

496
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: the way along at every stage. She's collaborative about it.

497
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 1: Just as movie studios and producers and studio executives have

498
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 1: records in which they you'll talk to the guy or

499
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 1: the woman who said, oh, we passed on Jaws, you know,

500
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 1: we passed on Star Wars. There's there's regrets that they

501
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 1: have and where they got it wrong. Even though they've

502
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 1: had great success, they don't always get it right. And

503
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 1: does that happen with you and I'm assuming when you've

504
00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 1: been responsible for once once an example, something you think, God,

505
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:07,960
Speaker 1: I wish I could do that over again, something spectacular. Um.

506
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 1: I mean I think that about every shoot I do.

507
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 1: I think, you know, when when when I am packing

508
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 1: up and we're getting back on the plane or whatever

509
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 1: or driving back from a studio, I wish I'd say, oh,

510
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 1: I'm just getting into you know, I'm just on a

511
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 1: roll now, and I wish it could go on forever.

512
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 1: And I because now I know that I would have

513
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 1: not put those shoes or not done that, or you know,

514
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have done the hair like that or something

515
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 1: like that, and maybe that would have been better. And

516
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 1: you're always asking maybe about every shoot. You know, if

517
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 1: you're satisfied with something, it's it's usually not a good shoot,

518
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 1: but you can feel good about it or bad about it.

519
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 1: You know, hopefully you feel good about it when you finish.

520
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 1: I want to ask you about what two things have

521
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 1: popped to mind here? Um? What is about Bruce Bruce Webber,

522
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 1: the famous photographer and filmmaker. Um. I was delighted to

523
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 1: get invited to Bruce's house. I know Bruce through my

524
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 1: brother Billy, and when my brother, Billy was modeling for

525
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 1: the first couple of years of his career. Um, uh,

526
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 1: he knew Bruce. You know, Calvin Klein ads and so

527
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 1: Bruce found a lot of young actors. I mean, he's

528
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 1: amazing at how he hones in on those kids that are,

529
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 1: you know, probably starting modeling because they can't go job

530
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 1: something else. And uh and Bruce just see something and

531
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 1: you know there's there's a list as long as my arm.

532
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 1: I'm not good at remembering names, but you know when

533
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 1: you look back at older pictures of his new son

534
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 1: and say, oh my god, there's like Matt Dillon or

535
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 1: sure exactly one. Yeah. Um, Bruce is such a a

536
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 1: cuddly man. He's like the cuddliest man. As a photograph

537
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 1: I had taken that I posted on my Instagram page

538
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 1: of Bruce and I cuddling. We were in an opening

539
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 1: or a premiere of something and he went and I

540
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,919
Speaker 1: put my head on his shoulder and I'm hugging Bruce.

541
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,359
Speaker 1: Like the moment you see Bruce, you want to get

542
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 1: on the couch and women to squeeze him and let's say,

543
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 1: let's pop some popcorn and watch a movie. You know,

544
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,759
Speaker 1: he's just the most adorable man you've ever met? What

545
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 1: is it? I'm just using him as an example, meaning

546
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 1: what's required in the world. You'd assume the girls, the girl,

547
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,799
Speaker 1: she fits the clothes, she looks right, there's lights as

548
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 1: a camera. What does the photographer bring? I think, you know,

549
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 1: each one obviously brings his own thing. I think what

550
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:44,800
Speaker 1: Bruce brought is he um. He came in to fashion

551
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 1: photography at a time when everything was very kind of

552
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 1: fake and painted, and you know, it was big shoulders

553
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 1: and tough on, you know, the working woman kind of thing.

554
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 1: And he broke all that and he you know, scrubbed

555
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:06,720
Speaker 1: all the makeup off and had tousled hair and and

556
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 1: you know, preferred to photograph clothes that were vintage or

557
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 1: that had a softness about them or romance about You

558
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 1: were there to witness that when he was doing that.

559
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 1: I was right alongside and he was doing that. Did

560
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 1: you gasp or you're like, wow, that's the school. I

561
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 1: was like, go bruiser, Yeah, grow bruiser, because I was

562
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 1: loving it, you know, and then he kind of my

563
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 1: my my idea at that time was it was a

564
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 1: more sort of English vintage, and then he his was

565
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 1: more American and American, Indian and things like they're all

566
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:42,320
Speaker 1: mixed in. And then there was the whole photographer culture

567
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 1: of Edward Western and all those people that we're all

568
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 1: inspirational to him, you know, and how they looked and

569
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 1: how they lived their lives and how you know, he

570
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 1: and he introduced me to all that, and that was

571
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 1: so fascinating to me. Someone like him who has this

572
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 1: great career. I mean, it's one of the you know

573
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 1: that I don't I don't like this word. It's such

574
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 1: a Trump word, but I'll use it now because we're

575
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,239
Speaker 1: in the age of Trump all these top top photography

576
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 1: is one of the top photographers in the business. Um

577
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:21,359
Speaker 1: the eventually, you know, all things must pass. Or does

578
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:26,280
Speaker 1: Bruce adapt? Does Bruce do his thing? I think he's

579
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,280
Speaker 1: adapted and it's kind of rolled over. And I've actually

580
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 1: done two books that the one you have here is

581
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 1: the most recent one, but I did one before and

582
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:38,359
Speaker 1: and in the one before there was you see very

583
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 1: much the older Bruce and now here's the newer Bruce.

584
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 1: Where it's it is. You know, he does embrace celebrities

585
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:52,720
Speaker 1: without making them look like stand out. They just become

586
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:57,279
Speaker 1: part of the landscape in a way. That is kind

587
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:03,879
Speaker 1: of interesting. He um. His his photography is about what's

588
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 1: happening all around you. You know, I'd like to think

589
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:13,359
Speaker 1: that we have um a fairly sophisticated listenership, not just

590
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:17,799
Speaker 1: in New York beyond and female. You know, I think

591
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 1: I think men are less and that's not true. I

592
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 1: guess men more and more and more, UM seek to

593
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,799
Speaker 1: inform themselves about clothes rather than have it passed on

594
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 1: like by my dad, which was I think was my

595
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,720
Speaker 1: point was that was very common then taste and clothes

596
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 1: was something you were instructed about it, rather than going

597
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 1: out in the world and acquiring your own taste and

598
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 1: UM in that way that I have had people say.

599
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 1: Um Simon Dounan, I say to him, what's the tip

600
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 1: for women? And he and whatever? His answer was, you know,

601
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 1: bag shoes, you know, jack or whatever. You think you

602
00:37:58,120 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 1: just spend the money on this and then fill it

603
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,319
Speaker 1: in with this. Do you have any such advice for

604
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:04,359
Speaker 1: women as to what to wear? What do you spend

605
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,800
Speaker 1: your money on? Um if their budget is somewhat limited,

606
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:11,319
Speaker 1: well by one thing that you absolutely love and you're

607
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 1: going to wear more than once, So try to make

608
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 1: something that's not too extreme, something that's by something more

609
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:21,880
Speaker 1: expensive that's going to last, because if it's cheap, it's

610
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:25,759
Speaker 1: probably not going to last. That's I mean, I would

611
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 1: rather buy one very expensive sweater than six cheap ones

612
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:35,800
Speaker 1: that are can appeal. Well. If when you do retire,

613
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 1: if the time comes at you retire, and if Anna

614
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 1: decides to put you on the cover for your retirement

615
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 1: and you need an actor to be on the cover

616
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 1: with you, just as that furniture behind you exactly, I

617
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,759
Speaker 1: will put the suit on. I will be your furniture,

618
00:38:54,880 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 1: your arm candy behind you on your real good cover.

619
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:09,840
Speaker 1: I'm just volunteering that now. I'm a big fan of yours, right,

620
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:11,839
Speaker 1: But thank you so much for doing this with us.

621
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you. It's fun. When speaking at Grace

622
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 1: Cottington's seventie birthday five years ago, her longtime friend, colleague

623
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 1: and editor in chief of American Vogue, Anna Winter called

624
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 1: her the quote hardened soul of the magazine. It's guardian

625
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 1: at the gate, it's beacon of excellence unquote. Learn more

626
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 1: about Cottington's work in her most recent book, Grace the

627
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:45,280
Speaker 1: American Vague Years. This is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening

628
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 1: to Here's the Thing