1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:07,920 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,040 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. 3 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: Time for a alt episode. Uh. This is part one 4 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: of a two part series. This is called The Machine 5 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: Lords of Barnard sixty eight Part one. This is one 6 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:23,959 Speaker 1: where we talk about uh some some interesting conjectural ideas 7 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: about artificial intelligence and and uh and alien civilizations. So 8 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 1: strap in. Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production 9 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:44,480 Speaker 1: of My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow 10 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:47,880 Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. 11 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:50,840 Speaker 1: And Robert, I wanna ask you a question. I think 12 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: I've talked about this on the show before, but now 13 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: I can't quite recall. Uh, you've seen the movie adaptation 14 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: of Carl Sagan's Contact, right, Yes, it's been a while. 15 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: Saw it when it came out in theaters and I 16 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:04,399 Speaker 1: haven't seen it since. Oh wow, that is a long 17 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 1: time ago. But yeah, it's I mean, it's really worth 18 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: the watch that movie. Uh. It always makes me emotional. 19 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 1: But like, one of the things about it that I 20 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: always sticks in my brain the most is the very 21 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: opening sequence where you you're starting, um, on Earth and 22 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: you're pulling out away from Earth, and as you get 23 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:26,399 Speaker 1: farther away out into interstellar space, the signals that you 24 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 1: are hearing coming from Earth, like you're hearing like radio 25 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 1: broadcasts or television broadcasts or something. And and it just 26 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 1: gets older and older because you're you're pulling out to 27 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: where older and older signals are the only ones that 28 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: have reached that far. Yeah, And of course there's this 29 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 1: very chilling moment where you get really far out there 30 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: and I think you're just getting like a signal of 31 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 1: Hitler reading a speech or something that's just like, oh God. 32 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 1: And it really makes you think about what kind of 33 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: impression humanity is making on the broader galaxy. Yeah. I 34 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: I specifically remember this, uh this from the film. Yeah, 35 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: it makes makes quite an impression. It makes you, yeah, 36 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: a little uh reflective on the on on a human 37 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: civilization itself. And and and if anyone is receiving these signals, 38 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 1: anything is receiving these signals, what they're picking up on 39 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: and what their impression is going to be of the 40 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: of human civilization. Yeah, Like what if aliens the only 41 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 1: thing they intercepted and had to go on was a 42 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 1: TV edited broadcast of Batman Forever. What would they what 43 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: would they conclude about Earth life? Yeah, that's it's it's 44 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 1: a it's a fun game. Uh. And it also plays 45 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: into some fun sci fi to think about this. Uh, 46 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: there's of course the Futurama episode where it's essentially uh 47 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: uh what what was it, Ally mccuh, what was the 48 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:46,640 Speaker 1: Lawyer show? Ally McBeal. Yeah, it's like an Ally McBeal 49 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 1: s show that was canceled or it's um, it's it's 50 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: a season finale didn't air, or somehow they didn't receive it. 51 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: And that's what the aliens have come to Earth in 52 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 1: order to to get They want the season finale for 53 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 1: this television show. Oh. I think that's also sort of 54 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 1: the premise of Galaxy Quest, isn't it that they see 55 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:07,079 Speaker 1: like a Star Trek style show, but they think it's 56 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 1: a documentary about real life on Earth. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Now. 57 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,359 Speaker 1: Of course, radio signals and so forth, they're not the 58 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 1: only things that we have sent out into the void. Uh. 59 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 1: We of course have sent machines as well. And I 60 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 1: want us to to think back for a second to 61 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:27,639 Speaker 1: the pioneer plaques, the gold anadized aluminum plaques attached to 62 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: the nineteen seventy two Pioneer ten and the nineteen seventy 63 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 1: three Pioneer eleven spacecrafts. These were the first human made 64 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: objects to escape velocity from our Solar System, in the 65 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: first physical emissaries of Earth life and Earth civilization. I 66 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: think in the years since, they've actually been outpaced by 67 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: the voyager probes in leaving the Solar System. Is that right? 68 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: I think I believe so. And there's of course a 69 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 1: similar story to tell with those uh spacecraft as well. 70 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: But but uh, specifically with the plaques, because of you know, 71 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 1: these were of course machines. They were not human beings. 72 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: They were powered by nuclear batteries, they had antenna, UH antenna, 73 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 1: they had an assortment of scientific equipment on board, so 74 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 1: they didn't look like us or in any way really 75 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: represent biological life, except in the case of these plaques, 76 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 1: which include a number of symbols detailing the origin of 77 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: the spacecraft and then to sort of convey you know, 78 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 1: you know, human understanding of where we are in the 79 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:28,919 Speaker 1: Solar System than the larger cosmos. But then also it 80 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: contained these these now iconic depictions of two human beings, 81 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: a nude male and a nude female. Now, it's worth 82 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 1: noting Carl Sagan regretted that the humans on the plaque 83 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:44,279 Speaker 1: do not appear pan racial, but rather appear very Caucasian. 84 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 1: And also the line representing the females Volva was removed, 85 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: so she's kind of like, um, like a Barbie doll 86 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 1: on this, you know. So they're not completely anatomically correct, 87 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 1: and they seem to only represent uh, Caucasians as opposed to, 88 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,799 Speaker 1: like a the idea of representing the broader human species 89 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:08,719 Speaker 1: as a whole. Now, one of the things that's super 90 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: interesting about all of this, especially given what we're gonna 91 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 1: be talking about in this episode, is that the Pioneer 92 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 1: probes and subsequent spacecraft are non human machines that merely 93 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,840 Speaker 1: bear in some cases the inscriptions of human beings, be 94 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 1: they you know, actual inscriptions or media of some sort. Uh. 95 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: And at the same time, these are our mechanical works, 96 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: our machine utterances that are cast out into the void. 97 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 1: They are us reaching out four and two other life forms. 98 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: Now today, humans maintain a small orbital presence, and humans 99 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: did visit the Moon in the previous century, but our 100 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:45,840 Speaker 1: outreach continues to take the form of these technological utterances, 101 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 1: and even though it is the work of human beings 102 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:50,919 Speaker 1: on our planet to analyze the data we receive in 103 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 1: search of possible signs of alien life, we also use 104 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 1: artificial intelligence in many scientific and technological applications, including this 105 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 1: or for extraterrestrial intelligence. That is strange. Yeah, and uh, 106 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:07,039 Speaker 1: I guess it's interesting on a couple of levels. So 107 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: first of all, you know, one of the things humans 108 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 1: and we've discussed this in the show before. One of 109 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 1: the things that humans and their AI creations look for 110 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: our techno signatures, and these include both radio signals and 111 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:21,720 Speaker 1: things like mega structures like Dyson's fears, you know. Uh So, 112 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:25,160 Speaker 1: just as we are reaching out with our mechanical utterances, 113 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 1: we are seeking the mechanical utterances of others. Yeah, we 114 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 1: haven't talked about Dyson spheres in a while, but unless 115 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 1: my memory is betraying me, I think one of the 116 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 1: ways to look for something like that would be look 117 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: out there and see if there's some kind of structure 118 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 1: object that is basically only emitting heat. And the idea 119 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: there would be, you know, if all the other frequencies 120 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: of radiation are being used up and only heat is 121 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: coming out of it that looks like that's probably a 122 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: waste product of doing work. So it's like, you know, 123 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 1: it's the fan on your computer just blowing out into space. Yeah. Yeah, 124 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 1: so and and basically coming back to the idea that 125 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 1: it advanced civilizations are going to have advanced energy requirements, 126 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 1: and therefore they're going to have to harness the energy 127 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: of entire suns. Now, the other angle on this that 128 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: that is interesting, in one that I really hadn't thought about, uh, 129 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 1: is that there may be problems with our use of 130 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 1: AI for such searches, as pointed out by Spanish clinical 131 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 1: neuropsychologist Gabriel G De la Torre in a paper published 132 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 1: in Acta Astronautica UM. Basically, the idea is AI could 133 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: confuse us or tell us that it has detected impossible 134 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: or false things in the data. And our AI creations 135 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: can certainly reflect our own biases. We we've discussed that 136 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 1: as well, you know, like we can and and you 137 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 1: know this this applies to things like facial recognition et cetera. 138 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 1: Like we can we can easily program our own um 139 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: you know, uh, overt or hidden wants and desires into 140 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: the AI we create, or not even program them AI 141 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: can acquire fire them from data sets based on our 142 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: on reality. If it's just trying to like read what 143 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: has happened in the world and learned from that, it 144 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: can internalize biases that we didn't even try to explicitly 145 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: give it because those biases are reflected in how the 146 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: world is. So the AI we unleash on on such 147 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: a search for alien life might simply be more inclined 148 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: to find evidence of it dragging in human bias. Or 149 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: it could simply identify things that are not there. It 150 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: could find patterns that that that simply aren't actually there 151 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 1: in a meaningful way. Oh well, this immediately makes me 152 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: think of what was it called the Google Deep dream 153 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:43,079 Speaker 1: that found you know, dog faces in everything, where you 154 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: like have a have a picture and have Google analyze it, 155 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:50,439 Speaker 1: and I think it would try to extract recognizable patterns 156 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 1: and then amplify them. So you take a picture of 157 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:56,840 Speaker 1: your couch and suddenly your couch, you know, Google happens 158 00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: to detect that your couch is made out of crabs, dogs, 159 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 1: and human faces. Yeah, so you know you wouldn't want 160 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 1: your your your AI reporting back and saying we found it. 161 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 1: It's a planet we're calling it good Dog one. It's 162 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 1: composed entirely of dog faces, so let's celebrate. And it's 163 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 1: under threat from the nearby crab nebula, not the crab nebula, 164 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: you know, the literal crab nebula, which is made of crabs. Yes, 165 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 1: So there's actually a specific situation that the author points 166 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 1: out in this paper, and it concerns the Nalia faculae 167 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:34,320 Speaker 1: of of of Series, the largest object in the asteroid belt. Basically, 168 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:37,680 Speaker 1: the situation here is bright spots were observed in a 169 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 1: crater there which turned out to be volcanic ice and 170 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: salt emissions. You might remember seeing pictures of this on 171 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 1: the internet. So yeah, Series is an object in the 172 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 1: asteroid belt, sometimes referred to, I think as a dwarf 173 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,319 Speaker 1: planet or something. It's basically spherical, so it looks kind 174 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:54,439 Speaker 1: of like a moon, uh, and that, Yeah, there was 175 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: a big crater in it where right in the middle 176 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 1: of the crater there was there were these white, bright 177 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 1: white spots there. And obviously, you know, without knowing better 178 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:05,839 Speaker 1: and having learned our lesson from the Face on Mars 179 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: and all this stuff, you know, people's natural inclination was 180 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:12,839 Speaker 1: to was to pattern recognize out the butt and go like, ah, 181 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 1: that technology or something this an alien Yeah clear, Yeah, 182 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: you start looking for geometric shapes and uh and and 183 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 1: looking for artificiality in it. And so this this particular paper, 184 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 1: this this team from the University of Cadiz, they had 185 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 1: already looked at what they called the cosmic guerilla effect 186 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 1: in eighteen UM. This is this is um referring of 187 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 1: course to these uh, these attention based experiments that we've 188 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:39,719 Speaker 1: we've discussed before in the show and a lot of 189 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,559 Speaker 1: you've probably seen in YouTube clips where you have somebody 190 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 1: in a guerrilla costume walk through a scene and see 191 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 1: afterwards if anybody noticed it. Yeah, human cognition has amazing 192 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: blind spots for attention that will astound you. Now we've 193 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:56,839 Speaker 1: already warned you, so if you've never tried this experiment before, 194 00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:58,960 Speaker 1: you might be on your guard and already knowing what 195 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 1: to look for. Yeah. Basically, the way it goes is 196 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 1: like you can do something like have a bunch of 197 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 1: people stand in a circle throwing a basketball to each other, 198 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 1: and you ask people to judge how many times the 199 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:12,959 Speaker 1: basketball has passed from person to person and they'll do 200 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:15,079 Speaker 1: that and in the middle of the video, a person 201 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 1: in a guerrilla costume just walks through the middle of 202 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: the group, and huge numbers of people while they're counting 203 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: the basketball passes do not see the gorilla. And it's like, 204 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:26,839 Speaker 1: if you go back and watch the video again looking 205 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: for the gorilla, it is unmissable. But somehow, when we're 206 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 1: trained in on a certain type of cognitive task and 207 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: visual processing, you can completely miss gross stimuli that that 208 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 1: would seem impossible to miss if you were looking for them. Yeah, 209 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 1: and of course one can imagine that if an artificial 210 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: intelligence we're watching the same scene, they would pick up 211 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:51,199 Speaker 1: on the gorilla. They would they would It would be 212 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 1: able to say, oh, gorilla, unexpected gorilla has appeared in 213 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 1: this scene and then report it as such. And so 214 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 1: the cosmic guerrilla effect basically deals with the idea that 215 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 1: eve there are intelligent, non earthly signals out there. They 216 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:08,960 Speaker 1: could be written dimensions that escape our perceptions, such as 217 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 1: dark matter for example, and it would be like the 218 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 1: guerrilla suit. You know, you just wouldn't see it, But 219 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: an AI would potentially have an advantage in catching those 220 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 1: sorts of signals. Oh okay, yeah, I see what they're 221 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 1: saying there. So in in this between, in this this 222 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:28,959 Speaker 1: this newer study looking at the Venalia faculae, UH, they 223 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:31,839 Speaker 1: did the following. They used a hundred and sixty three volunteers, 224 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 1: human volunteers with no grounding in astronomy. I wanted to 225 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 1: stress they're not guerillas or robots. UM. Plus, they used 226 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:44,679 Speaker 1: an artificial vision system based on con evolutional neural networks 227 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: or CNNs. Both groups detected square structures in the image 228 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: of the Venalia faculae, but the AI also saw a triangle, 229 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 1: and when the triangle option was then presented to humans UM, 230 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,559 Speaker 1: the number of humans claiming to also see a triangle 231 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 1: increase significantly. So while AI could certainly detect something that 232 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: we cannot that we cannot see, it might also detect 233 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: something that isn't there and then confuse us into seeing 234 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 1: something that isn't there as well. So you can see 235 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:21,839 Speaker 1: this this sort of spiraling effects of this UH, and ultimately, 236 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 1: with the aid of AI, we end up seeing signs 237 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 1: of life where there weren't any to begin with. Okay, 238 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: I see, I see what you're saying. So the idea 239 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: is that humans already have a certain tendency for paradolia 240 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 1: or paradolia the detecting of patterns or signal within noise. 241 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 1: So that's the reason that we see faces in the clouds, 242 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:44,319 Speaker 1: or see a face on Mars, or any number of things. 243 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 1: We look at something that in fact has no encoded 244 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 1: information in it, and we think we can extract meaningful information, 245 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 1: I mean no meaningful information, and we think we can 246 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: extract meaningful information. Uh. You know, listening to tape hiss, 247 00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: you might think you hear a word or something like that. 248 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 1: And the sample here is we think we see I 249 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:04,440 Speaker 1: don't know, a pyramid or a you know, a building 250 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 1: on this asteroid or this dwarf planet. And then you 251 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: can actually make it worse by if you add on 252 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: an AI. The AI may in fact contribute to priming 253 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 1: that makes you even more likely to engage in paradilia. 254 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 1: The same way that if somebody plays you a tapiss 255 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: and doesn't just play it for you, but says, you know, hey, 256 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 1: listen for the part where it says worship Satan or whatever, 257 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: that you're probably more likely to hear it because you've 258 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 1: been primed. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean it's kind 259 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: of like imagine, you know, you're thinking about Fleetwood Mac 260 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: albums and then you learn, oh, um, you know one 261 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:41,479 Speaker 1: of this, you know, Watson AI or whatever has determined 262 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 1: that Tusk is the best Fleetwood Mac album. And you 263 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: might think, well, you know, it wasn't my favorite, but 264 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: the AI has identified it as the best Fleetwood Mac album. 265 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 1: Perhaps it is the best Fleetwood Mac album, even though 266 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 1: deep down you know it's rumors, even if deep down 267 00:14:57,480 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: you know it's one of those early albums before Stevie 268 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 1: Nicks was in the band. Yeah, I mean exactly basically, yeah, 269 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 1: back to that. But it has come back to the idea, yeah, 270 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 1: that we we're we're we're very susceptible to priming, and 271 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 1: we could And the argument here by the authors is 272 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 1: that you could set up a situation where where your 273 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 1: AI dragging in certain biases is setting you up, is 274 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 1: priming you to to with it see things that aren't there, 275 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: which could ultimately just make the search for actual, you know, 276 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 1: evidence of intelligent alien life elsewhere in the galaxy all 277 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:36,479 Speaker 1: the more difficult. So this is kind of a conundrum 278 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: because the AI could it could be helpful and harmful, 279 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: like it could help with the problem of the gorilla effect, 280 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 1: where we uh, you know, we just totally miss things 281 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: that we should have seen. But it can also, on 282 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: the other end, cause us to see things that aren't there. Yes, absolutely, 283 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 1: uh and and a lot some of this isn't completely 284 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: crucial to where we're going from from here in the episode. 285 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 1: It's worth thinking thinking about because here's the other side 286 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 1: of things. What's out there might not simply be the 287 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: mechanical utterances of biological life as well. It could be 288 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 1: the mechanical echoes of biological life, what is sometimes referred 289 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 1: to as post biological life and even post biological intelligence. 290 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 1: And this this has some huge implications um all its own. Okay, 291 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 1: So the idea here would be not that you know, 292 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: we we already expect that it's possible we could encounter 293 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 1: alien technology rather than biological aliens themselves, just because alien 294 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: technology is say a you know, an artifact of their 295 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: previous occupation of a planetary surface, or a piece of 296 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: technology could be their probe like our voyager probes. You know, 297 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 1: these do not have humans in them. They're just going 298 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: out there. Yeah, but this idea goes beyond that to say, well, 299 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: maybe it's not just that we're encountering the mechanical residue 300 00:16:56,400 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 1: of biological life, but we're encountering a civilization that at 301 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 1: this point only consists of machines that there that is 302 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 1: inherently post biological. Yeah, at what point does the residue 303 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:13,120 Speaker 1: become the thing itself as a civilization becomes increasingly technological. 304 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 1: At what point is the technology the defining or soul 305 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 1: aspect of the civilization? Yeah? Now, this is an idea 306 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:22,159 Speaker 1: that's certainly been discussed in science fiction a lot. I 307 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 1: think gene Wolfe had had one version of this, where 308 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: you have an entire mechanical society and they have evolved 309 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 1: from advanced space suits for biological beings that no longer exist. 310 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 1: Uh that sort of thing. Oh yeah, okay, Well, not 311 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: to give away too much, but this is also explored 312 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 1: in one of our favorite video games that we've talked 313 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,680 Speaker 1: about on the show before, a really cool game called 314 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:48,199 Speaker 1: Soma that is sort of an undersea sci fi horror 315 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:52,680 Speaker 1: game that involves a post biological existence. Yeah. Yeah, a 316 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 1: good connection. I wasn't even thinking about Soma, but but 317 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: that that is a great example of this as well. 318 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 1: So a couple of sources that we we looked at 319 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:02,680 Speaker 1: for this that I want ahead and go ahead mention 320 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 1: here and of course what we'll get into and greater 321 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: depth the work of CTS Seth show Stock and the 322 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 1: work of Susan Schneider, a cognitive scientist and philosopher. I 323 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: was just trying to look up Susan Schneider's affiliation. I 324 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 1: think at some point she was affiliated with the University 325 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:21,440 Speaker 1: of Connecticut. It looks like maybe the more recent one 326 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: is Florida Atlantic University. But anyway, yeah, she She is 327 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:28,399 Speaker 1: a philosopher whose work we have discussed on the show before. 328 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 1: Actually her work came up in an episode we did 329 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: about whether machines could be conscious, because she was one 330 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 1: of the authors who advanced the idea of a test 331 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 1: for AI consciousness that I thought was pretty interesting, and 332 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: it was actually very simple. The test was basically just 333 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 1: variations on can this machine grasp and manipulate supernatural concepts 334 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: from fiction and folk belief, such as ghosts and astral 335 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:02,400 Speaker 1: projection and bodies whopping like in the movie Freaky Friday 336 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 1: and stuff. You know, it might sound kind of silly, 337 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 1: but actually these are concepts that I think you can 338 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 1: make a good argument only intuitively make sense to us 339 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:17,360 Speaker 1: because we have a subjective internal experience, and to an 340 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:21,679 Speaker 1: intelligent machine or even a biological automaton that didn't have 341 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 1: an internal experience, it would not make any sense to 342 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: to envision something like being a ghost or an astral 343 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:33,400 Speaker 1: projection where your consciousness leaves your body, because what would 344 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: be doing the leaving of the body. M hmm, yeah, 345 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 1: you know now that I'm thinking about Susan Schneider. I 346 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: think I saw her at World Science Festival at some 347 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 1: point in the past. Um, but I didn't think of 348 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 1: it till now. I forgot to check my my old 349 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: notes to see if I had anything than I wanted 350 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 1: to start with with show Stack though, uh, specifically his 351 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:02,439 Speaker 1: two thousand in paper what ET Will look Like and 352 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:05,679 Speaker 1: Why should We care? Uh? And this uh Basically, this 353 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 1: paper discusses um uh, this idea of post biological life, 354 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: the search for extraterrestrial life, and it starts off by 355 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 1: discussing our carbon bias in the hunt for for for 356 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:20,479 Speaker 1: e T s uh. You know, we look for rocky 357 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 1: worlds that contain liquid water, as this is the path 358 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 1: toward organic life. This is where organic life emerges from. 359 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 1: All of our models are built on this, uh. And 360 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 1: and that's that's the softer version of our bias, while 361 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:38,880 Speaker 1: the harder version is what what he references an individual 362 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 1: by the name of Simon Conway Morris who argues that 363 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 1: any evolved intelligent life form is going to roughly look 364 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 1: like us, at least in show stacks words quote in 365 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:52,640 Speaker 1: a dark night and from a distance. And I believe 366 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 1: we've discussed this idea at length on the podcast. Yeah. 367 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:57,639 Speaker 1: I think this was one of the earliest episodes of 368 00:20:57,640 --> 00:20:59,160 Speaker 1: the show I ever did, so it was a years 369 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 1: and years ago at this point, but we talked about 370 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:05,199 Speaker 1: Simon Conway Morris, who I think is an evolutionary biologist 371 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:09,160 Speaker 1: from Great Britain if I'm not mistaken, but he uh oh. 372 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,439 Speaker 1: It was the episode called Grizzly Bears from Outer Space, 373 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: where so they're there are two very opposing schools of 374 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: thinking about, you know, the forms intelligent aliens could take. 375 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: Some people say, you know it, we can't even imagine 376 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: how different they could be from us. You know, it's 377 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: it's impossible for us to get outside of our own 378 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:31,119 Speaker 1: anthro anthropomorphic paradigm to imagine how biologically different and strange 379 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:33,399 Speaker 1: aliens could be. And Morris was on the other side. 380 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:37,640 Speaker 1: He was saying No, they're actually principles of evolution and 381 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 1: sort of bio chemical constraints on what life could evolve. 382 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: And basically, he says, there's a pretty narrow range for 383 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,679 Speaker 1: what types of organisms can evolve just based on the 384 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 1: physics and chemistry of the universe, and so we actually 385 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:54,639 Speaker 1: shouldn't expect aliens to be all that different from us. 386 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,880 Speaker 1: We should actually expect them to be pretty similar in uh, 387 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: in very dependable ways. Has this kind of the idea 388 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:03,920 Speaker 1: where wherever you go, they're probably gonna be things like crabs, 389 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 1: and there is going to be something like a human 390 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:08,679 Speaker 1: um chasing those crabs around with some sort of a 391 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:11,120 Speaker 1: tool that's made to catch those crabs. Yeah, I mean 392 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 1: it's been a while, so I'm sure i'm somewhat oversimplifying. 393 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 1: Apologies to Conway Morris, but but that's the rough outline, 394 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:20,640 Speaker 1: is that that that biology is constrained by physics and 395 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:23,879 Speaker 1: chemistry and evolution, and those factors are going to be 396 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 1: universal no matter what kind of planet you're on or 397 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 1: you know, what star you're orbiting, and so there are 398 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 1: some patterns we should see repeating all throughout the galaxy. 399 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 1: So so that's one part of it. But then apparently 400 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 1: a lot of this bias is present. Arguably the show 401 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 1: Stacks you know, argues this in the Drake equation itself, 402 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 1: as we factor in the time it would take for 403 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:48,359 Speaker 1: life to evolve and the average lifetime of a technological society. 404 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: Now we're called the Drake equation was a hypothetical way 405 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 1: of trying to calculate the number of technological civilizations that 406 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 1: would be present in our galaxy by multiplying together a 407 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: bunch of numbers. And I don't remember what all the 408 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:02,920 Speaker 1: variables are now, but it would be something like you 409 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,880 Speaker 1: multiply the probability that life will arise on a planet 410 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:11,160 Speaker 1: at all times, the probability of that of any life 411 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,680 Speaker 1: becoming intelligent times that you know, a number of things 412 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 1: like that. And then I think you would also have 413 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 1: to factor in the average lifespan of a technological civilization 414 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: because at some point it will probably go extinct. Yeah, 415 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:25,880 Speaker 1: and we keep coming back to the Drake equation, uh, 416 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 1: you know, in not just to spend in general, because 417 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 1: it breaks a big question down into these different factors 418 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: that you can then, um, you know, work with independently. Yeah, 419 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 1: that's very useful. It decomposes the problem into a discrete 420 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 1: set of smaller questions, many of which also we still 421 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 1: don't know the answers too, But it is at least 422 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:47,639 Speaker 1: helpful to know what those questions would be so they 423 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,199 Speaker 1: can be investigated individually. Now, the chance of detecting a 424 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 1: technological civilization close to our own level of development is 425 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 1: apparently small. Chances are if we were to detect one, 426 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 1: they'd be thous in the years or more beyond us. 427 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: And when we extrapolate that show stack says we we 428 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:09,119 Speaker 1: What we tend to do is we tend to base 429 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 1: it on our current state of human evolution and imagine 430 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 1: something it points out with with less hair, with fewer teeth, 431 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:20,440 Speaker 1: with wrestle, with less reliance on physical labor um, which 432 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 1: you know, to me this instantly makes me think of 433 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 1: like the gray ones, right, and you know the various 434 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: extraterrestrial tropes that we have, which yeah, are kind of 435 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: an idea of what if we continued to get less exercise, 436 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 1: we continued to stare at screens, continue to type and 437 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,359 Speaker 1: stay indoors, you know, for you know, you know a 438 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 1: million years or so, uh, what could begin to happen? 439 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,720 Speaker 1: It's hilarious. The gray aliens are just nerds. They're the 440 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,119 Speaker 1: nerds of the galaxy. They're all brains, no braun, huge 441 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 1: head to contain that huge brain that can design their 442 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 1: interstellar spaceships, and then skinny little arms, and they stand 443 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,879 Speaker 1: around with their huge eyes, poking us with with sticks 444 00:24:57,920 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 1: and going like, oh what you know, what have we learned? 445 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 1: And yet with those huge brains, like how many cattle 446 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: are they going to have to mutilate before they finally 447 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:09,120 Speaker 1: figure out what makes a cow work? A lot? A lot? 448 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:13,440 Speaker 1: You know? Um? So, so the show Stack ultimately makes 449 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,479 Speaker 1: the argument that that this idea should evolve, that that 450 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:20,119 Speaker 1: or should have evolved more than it has. And he 451 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 1: does this by pointing out that, you know that that 452 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:27,399 Speaker 1: our ideas evolved concerning life on Mars. You know, initially, uh, 453 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 1: we we were looking at we were considering, oh, the 454 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: possibility of intelligent canal builders on Mars. And we've discussed 455 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,360 Speaker 1: where that idea came from on the show before, you know, uh, 456 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: sort of misinterpretation and uh and and straining to to 457 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,360 Speaker 1: see things, who weren't there a little bit of that 458 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:46,199 Speaker 1: that that bias as well, uh, regarding our some of 459 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,359 Speaker 1: our earlier views of the red planet. But then just 460 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 1: within a few decades that is forced to evolve when 461 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 1: we realize, oh, there aren't canals and uh and you know, 462 00:25:55,680 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: there's instead of looking for the technological society, we're looking 463 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 1: at the possibility of subterranean microbes. So our ideas concerning 464 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 1: life and other star systems, they argue, has not evolved 465 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,439 Speaker 1: in a similar way. Well, certainly not in the popular consciousness, 466 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 1: I would say, I mean, at least in some of 467 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 1: the astro biology literature we read. It seems like it 468 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,640 Speaker 1: it is uh, pretty sober from my point of view, 469 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 1: and the like looking for um for biosignatures often has 470 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 1: to do with looking for the kinds of say, gases 471 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 1: in the atmosphere that you would expect if there were 472 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,479 Speaker 1: a photosynthesizing organism, which could just be a microbe, And 473 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: that seems like a reasonable thing to look for for me. 474 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 1: But yeah, obviously, like when you're trying to think beyond that, 475 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:41,879 Speaker 1: I think, like, if we were to make contact with 476 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,880 Speaker 1: another uh, you know, type of alien from another type 477 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 1: of planet, what would it be. I think that we're 478 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:50,640 Speaker 1: still pretty close to the gray aliens point of view, right, 479 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 1: And of course I shall also again point out that 480 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 1: this is like a decade old paper at this point, 481 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 1: so you know, to some extent, show Stack himself may 482 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,199 Speaker 1: have helped move the needle. But um, he points out that, 483 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: you know, in addition to the purely organic model for 484 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 1: a more advanced Ailien life form, we also have to consider, 485 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,679 Speaker 1: you know, the cybernetic What if humans and indeed more 486 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,119 Speaker 1: advanced Ailien life forms have gone bored to some extent, 487 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 1: they've augmented there their organic forms with mechanical precision. And 488 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: there are multiple examples of this we might turn to 489 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 1: in science fiction, you know, and it's gonna range. The 490 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 1: Hands of Steel is a good example to draw in 491 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,919 Speaker 1: a different recent weird House cinema episode. But you have 492 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 1: stuff like the culture from Iron in Banks novels, where 493 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,359 Speaker 1: it's more of a you know, positive spin on the idea, 494 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,239 Speaker 1: to stuff like the borg and the cybermen, you know, 495 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 1: where everyone is majority or almost entirely machine and with 496 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:46,119 Speaker 1: only some slim vestige of organic life in there. You know, 497 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 1: so everybody's a RoboCop to everybody's a grievous uh, that 498 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,199 Speaker 1: sort of thing, just a planet of tom Noonan's from 499 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:58,399 Speaker 1: RoboCup too, just screaming for their space drugs. Um, but 500 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 1: actually no, I literally do want come back to this 501 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: point later on. Okay, But then there's one step beyond 502 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:08,399 Speaker 1: all this, and that is the complete mechanical replacement, capped 503 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,400 Speaker 1: off by the birth and explosion of artificial intelligence. So 504 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 1: for this in sci fi, one can certainly turn to 505 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 1: the terminator model, you know, where AI emerges and then 506 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: it kills off everything that came before. Um. And this 507 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,479 Speaker 1: is of course very popular in science fiction. Uh, you know. 508 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 1: But then another common trope is that the machine part 509 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,919 Speaker 1: of a society alone survives, so the servants outlived the 510 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,360 Speaker 1: masters due to you know, some sort of cataclysm or disease, 511 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:36,719 Speaker 1: what have you. But the other way of looking at 512 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 1: it as well is it's simply the mechanical utterance is 513 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 1: not something you know, extending from the civilization. You know, 514 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: it's not just an echo, but it is the next 515 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 1: phase of its evolution that the machine utterance is post 516 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: organic life. Perhaps the organic aspect of a civilization simply 517 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 1: fades away and you know, given these advancements, or perhaps 518 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 1: to use that the culture model from Banks's books, the 519 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 1: organic source remains, but the predominant shape of the civilization 520 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 1: in question is entirely post organic because with with the culture. 521 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 1: For instance, it's in his in his books, it's mostly 522 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: the AI, it's mostly the ships. It's mostly there, uh, 523 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: you know, robots and whatnot. But the humans are still there. 524 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 1: But they're kind of like, uh, they're kind of a 525 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 1: thing that is preserved for the sake of of preserving it. 526 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 1: You know, they're the remora on the shark. Yeah that 527 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 1: but a but a ramora that is sort of cherished. 528 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,240 Speaker 1: You know. It's almost like, um, you know, at times 529 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 1: there's the sense that the robots and the AI the 530 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,960 Speaker 1: minds of the culture. You know, they're they're babysitting for 531 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,719 Speaker 1: the humans. The humans are this thing that is nurtured 532 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 1: and preserved because they are the machines passed you know, Oh, 533 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 1: I want so it would it be kind of like 534 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 1: if there's a country that still has a ceremonial monarchy 535 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 1: but the monarchs have no actual political power. Yes, yes, 536 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 1: that would be a prime example, I think so. Show 537 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 1: Stick also points out that give in Moore's law, the 538 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 1: successful creation of human level AI is of course going 539 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 1: to lead to even greater AI. Quote, assuming that our 540 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 1: own technological time scales are not grossly atypical. This implies 541 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 1: something important for SETI. Once any society innvinced the technology 542 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 1: that could put them in touch, once they reach a 543 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 1: level that's comparable to our own and become detectable with 544 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 1: our listening experiments, they are at most only a few 545 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 1: hundred years away from changing their own paradigm of sentience 546 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 1: to artificial intelligence. This is almost identical to a point 547 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 1: that's made in the Susan Schneider chapter that we're going 548 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 1: to talk about in a bit. Yeah, so he stresses 549 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 1: that such an emergence would necessarily affect the biological ancestors 550 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 1: at all, but it makes sense that post biological life 551 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:49,720 Speaker 1: would outlast and outperform the organic. We could therefore assume 552 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 1: that any life form we encounter in the galaxy at 553 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 1: large would be a machine. Okay, well, maybe this is 554 00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: a good place to get into Susan Schneider's chapter on 555 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 1: this is she makes a similar argument, could cover some 556 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:04,719 Speaker 1: similar ground, and we can look at that in detail 557 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 1: now and then come back to the rest of her 558 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: argument after that. But so this chapter is by Susan Schneider, 559 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 1: and it's from a book called The Impact of Discovering 560 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 1: Life Beyond Earth, edited by Stephen J. Dick published by 561 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:21,479 Speaker 1: Cambridge University Press in and In this book, Schneider has 562 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 1: a chapter called Alien Minds, where she makes the same 563 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 1: argument that show Stack is making here about the nature 564 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 1: of minds we would be most likely to encounter if 565 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 1: we make contact with another civilization, and so several of 566 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,840 Speaker 1: her main points would be the following. She does argue 567 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 1: that in the most likely scenario, if we ever encounter 568 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 1: alien agents, it is likely that they will not be 569 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: biological life forms, but rather forms of super intelligent artificial 570 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 1: intelligence or s A I. And then she also says, 571 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 1: of course that intelligence can take many forms, but there 572 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 1: are reasons to think these machines would be modeled on 573 00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 1: the intelligence of biological organisms that arose through evolution, and 574 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: you could call these agents biologically inspired super intelligent aliens 575 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 1: or visas b I s A. And there are a 576 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 1: number of arguments she makes about what the cognition of 577 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 1: those aliens would consist of. But I just want to 578 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,479 Speaker 1: go back to her first argument that we would be 579 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 1: more likely to encounter post biological super intelligent AI than 580 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 1: we would to encounter biological organisms like ourselves. And so 581 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 1: there are three main points to her argument. The first 582 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 1: is what she calls the short window of observation, and 583 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: the argument goes like this, once a society has the 584 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 1: level of technology that would allow them to come into 585 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 1: contact with the rest of the cosmos, and this could 586 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:45,520 Speaker 1: include things like radio reception and transmission, rocketry and so forth, 587 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 1: at that point, that society is less than a few 588 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 1: hundred years from changing their paradigm from biology to artificial 589 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 1: intelligence to you know, silicon based AI. And she makes 590 00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 1: an argument for this based on previous ex tolerating rates 591 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,720 Speaker 1: of computation. So they already mentioned show stack referencing Moore's law, 592 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:05,680 Speaker 1: that would be in parallel to what he's saying there. 593 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 1: Uh so the advance of digital technology. But she also 594 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 1: makes reference to a thought experiment from her previous work. 595 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 1: Uh and so I just want to read the thought 596 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 1: experiment as she describes it, and then we can discuss 597 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:22,960 Speaker 1: pros and cons. Schneider writes, quote, suppose it is and 598 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,959 Speaker 1: being a techno file, you purchase brain enhancements as they 599 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 1: become readily available. First you add a mobile internet connection 600 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 1: to your retina. Then you enhance your working memory by 601 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 1: adding neural circuitry. You are now officially a cyborg. Now 602 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 1: skip ahead to forty. Through nanotechnological therapies and enhancements, you 603 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 1: were able to extend your lifespan, and as the years 604 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 1: progress you continue to accumulate more far reaching enhancements. By 605 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:55,160 Speaker 1: after several small but cumulatively profound alterations, you are a 606 00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 1: post human. To quote philosopher Nick Bostrom, post humans are 607 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 1: possible future beings quote whose basic capacity so radically exceed 608 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 1: those of present humans as to be no longer unambiguously 609 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 1: human by our current standards. At this point, your intelligence 610 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 1: is enhanced, not just in terms of speed of mental processing. 611 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:17,920 Speaker 1: You are now able to make rich connections that you 612 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 1: were not able to make before. Un Enhanced humans or 613 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:25,360 Speaker 1: naturals seem to you to be intellectually disabled. You have 614 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:28,320 Speaker 1: little in common with them, but as a transhumanist you 615 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 1: are supportive of their right not to enhance. It is 616 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:36,839 Speaker 1: now a D two hundred. For years, worldwide technological and developments, 617 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 1: including your own enhancements, have been facilitated by super intelligent AI. Indeed, 618 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:46,320 Speaker 1: as Bostrom explains, quote, creating super intelligence maybe the last 619 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 1: invention that humans will ever need to make, since super 620 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:53,799 Speaker 1: intelligences could themselves take care of further scientific and technological 621 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,720 Speaker 1: developments over time, The slow edition of better and better 622 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,880 Speaker 1: neural circuitry has left no real intellect actual difference in 623 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 1: kind between you and super intelligent AI. The only real 624 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 1: difference between you and an AI creature of standard design 625 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:12,279 Speaker 1: is one of origin. You were once a natural, but 626 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,960 Speaker 1: you are now almost entirely engineered by technology. You are 627 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:18,839 Speaker 1: perhaps more aptly characterized as a member of a rather 628 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 1: heterogeneous class of AI life forms. And so her thought 629 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,840 Speaker 1: experiment ends there. But she's trying to sketch how it 630 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 1: would be plausible to imagine humans existing today actually becoming 631 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:36,440 Speaker 1: machines little by little over time, and by extending their lifespans. Now, 632 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 1: I will say, I do think there's there's value in 633 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:41,239 Speaker 1: this thought experiment, and I'm glad we're pursuing it. But 634 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 1: I also do feel like I need to flag that 635 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:48,040 Speaker 1: I am significantly more skeptical of these types of common 636 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:52,200 Speaker 1: extrapolations about trans humanism and artificial intelligence than I used 637 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,719 Speaker 1: to be. I think my skepticism comes down to a 638 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,840 Speaker 1: suspicion that scenarios like these make a lot of au 639 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 1: ssumptions that are just taken as obvious, but I think 640 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:07,719 Speaker 1: are actually somewhat speculative. For example, would it actually be 641 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:12,560 Speaker 1: possible to increase human cognitive capacity with neural implants that 642 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,880 Speaker 1: that just seems obvious. It is taken as an assumption 643 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:19,920 Speaker 1: because obviously, computers can do things that human brains can't do, 644 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 1: or at least they can do them at speeds that 645 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:26,080 Speaker 1: human brains can't match. But what if there are inherent 646 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:32,400 Speaker 1: biological throttles or gates on consciousness and cognition in brains 647 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,880 Speaker 1: that make the neural cyborg not much smarter than a 648 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,840 Speaker 1: human with access to a computer. What if there's just 649 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 1: something physically about the properties of brains that doesn't allow 650 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 1: you to augment them with technology like this, It just 651 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 1: doesn't work. Or what if becoming a neural cyborg with 652 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:55,359 Speaker 1: computer enhanced cognition is actually a subjectively dreadful, miserable experience, 653 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,520 Speaker 1: and it turns out that once people have tried it 654 00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 1: and reported on what it's like, nobody wants to do 655 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:03,960 Speaker 1: it because it feels awful. Yeah, I'm like, I'm thinking, like, 656 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 1: what you some sort of an upgrade you received made 657 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,319 Speaker 1: it possible for you to say, well, let's say, be 658 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,840 Speaker 1: better at personal finance. But as a result that means 659 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:17,839 Speaker 1: that there is constantly an additional background narrative in your 660 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:22,560 Speaker 1: brain and your consciousness about your personal finances. And maybe 661 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,719 Speaker 1: that's good for for just you know, your your your 662 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:30,840 Speaker 1: pocketbook and your investments, but ultimately maybe it sucks for life, 663 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:32,920 Speaker 1: you know, because it's this is not the sort of 664 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,919 Speaker 1: balance of inattention that makes life worth living or makes 665 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 1: it like like it was before, like it it changes 666 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:41,880 Speaker 1: you to such an extent that you want to go 667 00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,120 Speaker 1: back you were, Like part of the joy of life 668 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:46,759 Speaker 1: is maybe not thinking about personal finance all the time. Yeah. 669 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:48,880 Speaker 1: What if part of what makes it fun to be 670 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:52,440 Speaker 1: a human is not being a computer? And if you 671 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 1: the more you make your brain into a neural cyborg, 672 00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,200 Speaker 1: the more miserable your life becomes, and you and you 673 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:03,359 Speaker 1: desperately seek to regress. Yeah. Another thing, What if consciousness 674 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:07,160 Speaker 1: is just inherently non transferable to machinery. I don't know 675 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:09,280 Speaker 1: this is the case. Some people do make this argument, 676 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:11,280 Speaker 1: and I have no reason to assume this is true. 677 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:14,400 Speaker 1: But I also have no reason to assume the opposite. 678 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:18,320 Speaker 1: There's no reason to assume that you can actually upload 679 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,120 Speaker 1: your mind to any kind of computer substrate. I think 680 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:23,240 Speaker 1: this is just a big question mark. We just don't 681 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 1: know if such a thing as possible. Yeah, I mean 682 00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 1: I tend to believe at this point that we could 683 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,760 Speaker 1: create something that acts like us. You could create something 684 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:35,040 Speaker 1: that is essentially like the the machine avatar of who 685 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:36,840 Speaker 1: we were, or who we thought we were, who we 686 00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:40,640 Speaker 1: want to be thought of after the fact. But to 687 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:42,839 Speaker 1: the point, like is that, I think when you start 688 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:46,239 Speaker 1: asking more specific questions about like is that us? Then 689 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 1: I don't know, I feel like it isn't is it? 690 00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:51,120 Speaker 1: Could it be conscious at all? Even if it could 691 00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:53,560 Speaker 1: be conscious, is there any reason to believe that you 692 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:57,280 Speaker 1: would experience it as a conscious continuation of your previous 693 00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:00,520 Speaker 1: mind or would it just be a conscious copy of you? Yeah? 694 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:02,319 Speaker 1: Or I mean when you start asking questions like that, 695 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 1: and then you get into questions of like, well, and 696 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,200 Speaker 1: who I am now? Is this really a continuation of 697 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:09,719 Speaker 1: who I was five years ago? You know? I mean, 698 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:14,520 Speaker 1: you start seeing all the flaws in this um narrative 699 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:18,120 Speaker 1: of self and identity, and maybe it becomes maybe that's 700 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,200 Speaker 1: the thing. Maybe we reach a kind of we reach 701 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:23,200 Speaker 1: a point where we realize none of it is real, 702 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:26,400 Speaker 1: Like there is no real continuation of the self and Therefore, 703 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:30,640 Speaker 1: why not create like three different machine avatars of myself 704 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,040 Speaker 1: and have them continue my legacy for me? I just 705 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:35,120 Speaker 1: want to mention a few other questions that just popped 706 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:37,680 Speaker 1: into my mind this morning. Uh, what if there are 707 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:41,719 Speaker 1: actually hard limits on certain kinds of intelligence, whether you're 708 00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:45,600 Speaker 1: talking about a biological brain or a computer. What if 709 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:50,720 Speaker 1: certain types of complex problem solving within a coherent agent system, 710 00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:54,080 Speaker 1: meaning like you know, a single sort of mental workspace 711 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:57,000 Speaker 1: that always that is coherent and communicates with every part 712 00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,160 Speaker 1: of itself. What if there are limits on what kind 713 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,200 Speaker 1: of intelligence can happen in an agent system like that 714 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:09,120 Speaker 1: or different thing? What if biological organisms in general, even 715 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:13,440 Speaker 1: across the galaxy, have an overwhelming tendency to revolt against 716 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:17,200 Speaker 1: the cultural transition to machine life and will always or 717 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:20,680 Speaker 1: almost always end up engaging in something like Frank Herbert's 718 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:23,000 Speaker 1: but Larry and Jihad, you know, where you shall not 719 00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:26,880 Speaker 1: make a machine in the image of a human brain. Yeah, yeah, 720 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:29,160 Speaker 1: you want to end up moving towards that sort of 721 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:31,520 Speaker 1: Star Wars model where yeah, you have all these advanced 722 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:36,839 Speaker 1: machines everywhere, but they're only working as servants, you know. There. Uh, 723 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:40,040 Speaker 1: with a few exceptions that I guess kind of proved 724 00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:43,120 Speaker 1: the rule in that universe. So anyway, literally hundreds of 725 00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:45,200 Speaker 1: questions like this I think I could list, and they 726 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:47,279 Speaker 1: start coming to mind when I think about it. And 727 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:49,880 Speaker 1: while I don't assume that any of them are strong 728 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:54,280 Speaker 1: enough to completely disable the trans humanist proposition, I also 729 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:59,440 Speaker 1: wonder if some trans humanist and super intelligence thinking is 730 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:02,719 Speaker 1: too wick to hand wave past these kinds of questions. 731 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:05,600 Speaker 1: But like I said earlier, I do think this type 732 00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:08,479 Speaker 1: of scenario that Schneider is talking about is plausible enough 733 00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:10,520 Speaker 1: to entertain as a thought experiment, so I want to 734 00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:12,760 Speaker 1: keep going with it. And one thing I will say 735 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:17,319 Speaker 1: in favor of of her argument is that, at least intuitively, 736 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:21,640 Speaker 1: I think her timeline is reasonable, meaning that I think 737 00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:25,760 Speaker 1: if it is possible to create an AI super intelligence 738 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:30,239 Speaker 1: and that humans or their biological alien counterparts do at 739 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:34,560 Speaker 1: some point merge with or fade into that machine AI 740 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:37,799 Speaker 1: super intelligence, I don't see why it would take more 741 00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:40,600 Speaker 1: than a few hundred years after the invention of computers 742 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:44,000 Speaker 1: basically for that to happen, And even if it took 743 00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:47,400 Speaker 1: tens of thousands of years, I think Schneider's point on 744 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,840 Speaker 1: this first point she's making is basically correct, the time 745 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:55,280 Speaker 1: between when a species starts technologically interacting with the universe 746 00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:59,000 Speaker 1: beyond its home planet and when it becomes dominated by 747 00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:03,440 Speaker 1: post biological intelligence. If this is possible, that that time 748 00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:06,839 Speaker 1: gap seems very small and vanishingly small compared to the 749 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:10,640 Speaker 1: lifespan of a planetary biosphere. Yeah, so you come back 750 00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:12,840 Speaker 1: to that scenario that show Style was talking about, where 751 00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,240 Speaker 1: once you're detectable, it's just a matter of time before 752 00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:19,960 Speaker 1: the machine administration moves in. So one instantly think that 753 00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:24,000 Speaker 1: you can imagine the the the aliens out there, if 754 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:26,000 Speaker 1: they're listening in on this, they're like, well, should we 755 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:27,919 Speaker 1: contact them now? They're like, well no, they're they're about 756 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:31,359 Speaker 1: to change administration, Like the humans in charge now are 757 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:35,080 Speaker 1: about to hand off in relatively little time from our standpoint, 758 00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,440 Speaker 1: two machines that will be it'll be just easier to 759 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:41,239 Speaker 1: communicate with those machines and we'll we'll there'll be a 760 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:44,279 Speaker 1: lot more pleasant to deal with as opposed to these 761 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,080 Speaker 1: organic beings. So yeah, I would say I'm more bullish 762 00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:51,160 Speaker 1: on the second half of Schneider's proposition here than the 763 00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:53,800 Speaker 1: first half. I don't know if the age of machines 764 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:55,799 Speaker 1: is coming. That's a big question mark for me, but 765 00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:59,560 Speaker 1: I will agree that if it's coming, it's coming very fast. Yes, 766 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:03,280 Speaker 1: and if it is coming, we welcome our machine overlords. 767 00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:06,960 Speaker 1: But anyway, that was all just Schneider's first point about 768 00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:09,480 Speaker 1: the short window of observation. A couple of other points 769 00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:13,160 Speaker 1: that are quicker to make. The second one that she 770 00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:17,239 Speaker 1: makes is the greater age of alien civilizations. So here 771 00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:20,520 Speaker 1: she cites some pre existing statistical work making the point 772 00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:22,560 Speaker 1: that I think show Stack made this point as well. 773 00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:26,760 Speaker 1: If you assume a random distribution of biological evolution across 774 00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,480 Speaker 1: the galaxy, most alien civilizations should be expected to be 775 00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:34,040 Speaker 1: millions or billions of years older than us. So either 776 00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:38,319 Speaker 1: there's something very special and rare about Earth life, or 777 00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:42,000 Speaker 1: we're one of many planets with with with powerful intelligence 778 00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:44,760 Speaker 1: and civilization. And if we are, we we should expect 779 00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,799 Speaker 1: to be on the young side of that equation. So 780 00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:50,280 Speaker 1: if you couple this with the previous points she argues, 781 00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:53,239 Speaker 1: you start getting toward an interesting conclusion. Again, these two 782 00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:56,640 Speaker 1: points are, on average, we should assume that other alien 783 00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:59,680 Speaker 1: civilizations have been around for millions or billions of years, 784 00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:05,560 Speaker 1: and on average, alien civilizations transform themselves into post biological 785 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:10,160 Speaker 1: superintelligence is very fast. There's a very short window of uh, 786 00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:14,799 Speaker 1: technological civilizations that are still biological in nature, and so 787 00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:17,319 Speaker 1: if you put those things together, you should expect. Yeah, 788 00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:21,080 Speaker 1: if we're meeting something, it's probably post biological. And I 789 00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:23,120 Speaker 1: will say, as far as my reaction, again, I have 790 00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:28,200 Speaker 1: lodged my moderate skepticism about the trans humanist and AI extrapolations, 791 00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:31,200 Speaker 1: mind uploading and so forth. But I followed the argument 792 00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:33,960 Speaker 1: so far. Her third point, and I think this is 793 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:37,520 Speaker 1: an interesting one. She says silicon is a better medium 794 00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:41,960 Speaker 1: for intelligence, at least better than carbon, and this one 795 00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:45,560 Speaker 1: is interesting. Basically, Schneider argues that carbon based life forms 796 00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:50,239 Speaker 1: will recognize the inherent physical advantages in transferring themselves into 797 00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:54,279 Speaker 1: silicon based machines. Again, you know, flag my skepticism about 798 00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:57,680 Speaker 1: mind uploading, but if it's possible, okay, I follow the argument. 799 00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:01,000 Speaker 1: She writes, quote, silicon appears to be a better medium 800 00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:04,920 Speaker 1: for information processing than the brain itself. Neurons reach a 801 00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:07,880 Speaker 1: peak speed of about two hundred hurts, which is seven 802 00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:12,280 Speaker 1: orders of magnitude slower than current microprocessors, While the brain 803 00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:16,720 Speaker 1: can compensate for some of this with massive parallelism features, 804 00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:20,440 Speaker 1: such as hubs and so on. Crucial mental capacities such 805 00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:24,440 Speaker 1: as attention rely on cereal processing, which is incredibly slow 806 00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:28,520 Speaker 1: and has a maximum capacity of about seven manageable chunks. 807 00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:30,759 Speaker 1: I did not follow up on what she means by 808 00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:34,239 Speaker 1: chunks there, but she cites Miller from nine. This must 809 00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:38,160 Speaker 1: be a computational science paper. She goes on further, the 810 00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:40,920 Speaker 1: number of neurons in a human brain is limited by 811 00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:45,360 Speaker 1: cranial volume and metabolism, but computers can occupy entire buildings 812 00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:48,640 Speaker 1: or cities, and can even be remotely connected across the globe. 813 00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:52,080 Speaker 1: Of course, the human brain is far more intelligent than 814 00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:56,520 Speaker 1: any modern computer, but intelligent machines can in principle be 815 00:45:56,600 --> 00:46:00,600 Speaker 1: constructed by reverse engineering the brain and im proving upon 816 00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:03,600 Speaker 1: its algorithms. You know this. This reminds me how in 817 00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:08,719 Speaker 1: in Ebanks's culture books, there parts where the machines are 818 00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:10,759 Speaker 1: working with humans because you have human characters that are 819 00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:13,520 Speaker 1: playing an important role, because that that makes it an 820 00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:18,000 Speaker 1: interesting story. Um. But the machines, of course are communicating 821 00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:20,080 Speaker 1: with each other. The minds are communicating with each other, 822 00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:23,440 Speaker 1: it just blindingly fast speeds. And then when they need 823 00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:26,440 Speaker 1: to communicate with an organic being, it just like it's 824 00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:29,200 Speaker 1: just slow as Christmas, you know, it just drags everything 825 00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:32,000 Speaker 1: to a halt basically for them. Yeah, that's funny, and 826 00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:34,920 Speaker 1: it's also funny this last comment she makes, I think 827 00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:39,040 Speaker 1: is interesting about the cutthroat design idea, where an intelligent 828 00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:41,240 Speaker 1: machine could just say, like, oh, I could make myself 829 00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,239 Speaker 1: better than a brain just by figuring out how brains work, 830 00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:47,200 Speaker 1: reverse engineering that making myself into a brain, and then 831 00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:52,280 Speaker 1: upgrading myself. But anyway, altogether, Schneider thinks that these points 832 00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:56,680 Speaker 1: should convince us that alien civilizations that we encounter are 833 00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:00,600 Speaker 1: way more likely to be post biological machine in super 834 00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:05,359 Speaker 1: intelligent aies than they are to be biological organisms made 835 00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:08,560 Speaker 1: of meat. And Schneider also makes one point that I 836 00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:11,480 Speaker 1: think is very good if it's possible to become a 837 00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:15,759 Speaker 1: post biological super intelligence, but not a common fate for 838 00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:19,439 Speaker 1: all intelligent alien species. So maybe not all alien civilizations 839 00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:23,680 Speaker 1: go this direction. The ones we encounter are still more 840 00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:27,120 Speaker 1: likely to be the ones that do become post biological 841 00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:32,040 Speaker 1: super intelligent machines, because these beings will be better at 842 00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:35,040 Speaker 1: space travel and better at spreading across the galaxy. Think 843 00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:37,680 Speaker 1: about the fact that they have no biological risks from 844 00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:41,719 Speaker 1: space travel like we do. Yeah, show Stack gets to 845 00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:44,600 Speaker 1: this point as well, that yeah, there would still be risks. 846 00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:48,799 Speaker 1: Space is still incredibly dangerous, but the bio risks would 847 00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:52,839 Speaker 1: be effectively removed. And then since you would uh as 848 00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:56,920 Speaker 1: a machine intelligence, you would be effectively immortal um in 849 00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:00,279 Speaker 1: ways that in ways that even in a you know, 850 00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:04,239 Speaker 1: a very long living biological organism would not um. All 851 00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:07,319 Speaker 1: trips would be the same distance, that all trips would 852 00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:10,080 Speaker 1: have the same duration, because time kind of loses all 853 00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:14,080 Speaker 1: meaning if it takes you a hundred years, a thousand years, uh, 854 00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:17,000 Speaker 1: you know, several thousand years to reach the place you're going, 855 00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:20,920 Speaker 1: that kind of loses its importance. If there is no 856 00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:25,600 Speaker 1: endpoint to your existence. Rob nine thousand does not care. Yeah, 857 00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:35,000 Speaker 1: thank alright. So, in dealing with this question of post 858 00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:40,399 Speaker 1: biologic logical intelligence and potentially encountering post biological intelligence, one 859 00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:42,640 Speaker 1: of the big questions, of course is well, what would 860 00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:46,160 Speaker 1: it mean for us? What would what would the relationship be? 861 00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:51,799 Speaker 1: What would a post biological civilization want? And I guess 862 00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:53,600 Speaker 1: the first way to tackle that is to sort of 863 00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:59,319 Speaker 1: look at the precursor, what does a biological civilization want? Well, 864 00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:02,759 Speaker 1: as a Stephen Hawking and many others have pointed out 865 00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:05,880 Speaker 1: if we're to use our only model of intelligent life 866 00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:11,360 Speaker 1: that we have, which is us, then obviously biological aliens 867 00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:16,080 Speaker 1: would be interested in things like domination, resource acquisition, possibly 868 00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:19,400 Speaker 1: religious convergence. Or if we were to tie the Simpsons 869 00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:21,480 Speaker 1: into all of this, uh, you know, we could think 870 00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:24,520 Speaker 1: to the citizen King Treehouse of Horror segment, they might 871 00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:27,719 Speaker 1: be interested and interested in us merely in order to 872 00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:32,040 Speaker 1: point a giant space laser at another planet. So resources, yes, 873 00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:36,200 Speaker 1: but also maybe strategic location and some greater interstellar conflict. 874 00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:39,279 Speaker 1: I just had an idea that I don't know if 875 00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:41,040 Speaker 1: it makes any sense, but I was thinking about some 876 00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:44,840 Speaker 1: of the some of the horrors of colonialism on Earth. 877 00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:49,640 Speaker 1: We're not just about the extraction of resources from the colony, 878 00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:54,240 Speaker 1: but also about the acquisition of customers within a colony 879 00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:58,040 Speaker 1: for the businesses in the in the home country. And 880 00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:01,160 Speaker 1: I wonder could there be some kind of comparison to 881 00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:04,279 Speaker 1: this in in a galactic sense, like, uh, it could 882 00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:07,239 Speaker 1: be possible that aliens would want to initiate contact with 883 00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:11,480 Speaker 1: Earth in order to acquire some analogy to customers buyers 884 00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:15,520 Speaker 1: for their products. Oh my, Uh, nothing come into mind. 885 00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:17,120 Speaker 1: But I am sure this, this has got to have 886 00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:19,880 Speaker 1: been This has had to have been explored in in 887 00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:22,960 Speaker 1: science fiction, especially like like Reagan era sci fi. You 888 00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:26,280 Speaker 1: know this is uh that's commenting on capitalism and so forth. 889 00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:30,319 Speaker 1: Like in fact, like surely Philip K. Dick explored this 890 00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:32,560 Speaker 1: idea a little bit that could be right up his alley. 891 00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:33,960 Speaker 1: I can't think of one but that that would be 892 00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:36,680 Speaker 1: an amazing Philip K. Dick theme. I'm sure he did it. Yeah. 893 00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:39,239 Speaker 1: So again, you know, if we only have have our 894 00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:41,560 Speaker 1: own intelligence really to base most of this off on 895 00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:44,880 Speaker 1: as a model, but uh, this would it would seem 896 00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:49,520 Speaker 1: to present a rather dark scenario. Though certainly biological aliens 897 00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:52,759 Speaker 1: could be different. Uh you know they could they could 898 00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:54,640 Speaker 1: just want to be our friends. They could want that 899 00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:57,240 Speaker 1: they could have you know, they could come in peace, 900 00:50:57,280 --> 00:50:59,920 Speaker 1: as they said, I mean Stephen Hawking, Yeah, he was 901 00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:02,440 Speaker 1: very cautious about the idea of st He was like, 902 00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:05,560 Speaker 1: we won't we don't want anything to do with other 903 00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:09,200 Speaker 1: aliens in the galaxy because the chances are it would 904 00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:12,360 Speaker 1: not go well for us. But people who are involved 905 00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:15,200 Speaker 1: in set itself, in SETI type research, it seems to 906 00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:18,520 Speaker 1: be more often. I mean, I probably there's a selection 907 00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:20,759 Speaker 1: effect by nature of the fact that they are part 908 00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:23,799 Speaker 1: of this effort to reach out and establish contact with 909 00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:27,440 Speaker 1: other civilizations, or at least detect their presence. There seems 910 00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:29,600 Speaker 1: to be more optimism in the CETI crowd to me, 911 00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:33,080 Speaker 1: like the less a less of an automatic assumption that 912 00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:37,440 Speaker 1: the way aliens view us would be would be extractive, 913 00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:39,919 Speaker 1: and you know, more of an idea that uh, an 914 00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:44,120 Speaker 1: alien that as a civilization progresses toward the point where 915 00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:46,640 Speaker 1: it can reach out into the cosmos, it also maybe 916 00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:50,080 Speaker 1: matures like it, it reaches its own form of humanism, 917 00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:53,319 Speaker 1: and maybe that extends beyond its own species. Yeah, and 918 00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:55,840 Speaker 1: I guess too. There's also the argument it's kind of 919 00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:58,640 Speaker 1: like moving into a new neighborhood. Do you want to 920 00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:00,960 Speaker 1: say hi to your new nigh burst, uh, you know, 921 00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:02,719 Speaker 1: the first couple of weeks, or do you want to 922 00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:06,560 Speaker 1: wait until there's a conflict you know? Uh, you know 923 00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:08,279 Speaker 1: what do you want? What do you want your first 924 00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:12,160 Speaker 1: communication going to be to be? Because non detection is 925 00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:14,600 Speaker 1: not a long term possibility. You know, they're going to 926 00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:16,399 Speaker 1: see you leaving your house at some point. You're gonna 927 00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:18,759 Speaker 1: have that awkward moment where you make eye contact and 928 00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:20,880 Speaker 1: then you're like, oh, yeah, we never actually said hi 929 00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:23,520 Speaker 1: to each other, you know. So you know, a lot 930 00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:26,920 Speaker 1: of this concerns biological life. These questions and some of 931 00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:30,560 Speaker 1: these ideas don't entirely disappear when we consider uh post 932 00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:35,000 Speaker 1: biological life. But again the question is what about alien AI? 933 00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:38,279 Speaker 1: What would a post biological species want with us? What 934 00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:41,759 Speaker 1: would they as show Stack points puts it, what would 935 00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:46,120 Speaker 1: they quote find interesting to do? Um, which I like. 936 00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:47,759 Speaker 1: I like the way of pointing that out. It's like 937 00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:50,400 Speaker 1: it's it serves to a certain extent, it goes beyond 938 00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:54,040 Speaker 1: like goals and things that it needs, like what what 939 00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:56,200 Speaker 1: does it do with its time? Like? What is its purpose? 940 00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:59,000 Speaker 1: And show Stack points out that sci fi has certainly 941 00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:01,600 Speaker 1: explored this topic, but he thinks only three things seem 942 00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:04,960 Speaker 1: plausible enough to consider discussion. So, first of all, he 943 00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:10,040 Speaker 1: argues that since quote high speed computation requires compact configuration, 944 00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:13,520 Speaker 1: the machines would likely remain localized, and this would better 945 00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:17,560 Speaker 1: benefit you know, swarm or shared processing, so they wouldn't 946 00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:20,839 Speaker 1: be spread out over vast distances. They might be localized 947 00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:24,239 Speaker 1: into an area only thousands of light years across so 948 00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:27,799 Speaker 1: if you're imagining, you know, something like, uh, the post 949 00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:32,799 Speaker 1: biological necrons from Warhammer forty thousand, you know that they 950 00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:34,920 Speaker 1: just want to spread out all over the galaxy and 951 00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:37,000 Speaker 1: take it over. Like that wouldn't make as much sense 952 00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:42,280 Speaker 1: because they want to maintain maximum uh, you know, computational power, 953 00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:44,959 Speaker 1: so they're going to stick to their own kingdom. Coming 954 00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:49,880 Speaker 1: back to Susan Schneider, she argues that biologically inspired super 955 00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:53,719 Speaker 1: intelligences would would tend to have one or more what 956 00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:56,719 Speaker 1: she calls global work spaces, And I actually want to 957 00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:59,040 Speaker 1: read her quote on this because I thought this was interesting. 958 00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:02,759 Speaker 1: She says, when you search for a fact or concentrate 959 00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:06,160 Speaker 1: on something, your brain grants that sensory or cognitive content 960 00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:10,200 Speaker 1: access to a quote global workspace, where the information is 961 00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:15,040 Speaker 1: broadcast to attentional and working memory systems for more concentrated processing, 962 00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:18,480 Speaker 1: as well as to the massively parallel channels in the brain. 963 00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:22,880 Speaker 1: The global workspace operates as a singular place when important 964 00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:26,440 Speaker 1: information from the senses is considered in tandem, so that 965 00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:30,720 Speaker 1: the creature can make all things considered judgments and act 966 00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:34,040 Speaker 1: intelligently in light of all the facts at its disposal. 967 00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:36,880 Speaker 1: In general, it would be inefficient to have a sense 968 00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:41,359 Speaker 1: or cognitive capacity that was not integrated with the others, 969 00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:45,000 Speaker 1: because the information from this sense or cognitive capacity would 970 00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:48,400 Speaker 1: be unable to figure in predictions and plans based on 971 00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:52,080 Speaker 1: an assessment of all the available information. And this comes 972 00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:54,800 Speaker 1: into play here because it seems like a civilization based 973 00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:58,000 Speaker 1: on a super intelligent AI. Uh, if it spread itself 974 00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:01,680 Speaker 1: too far, it would become impossible to maintain a global 975 00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:05,279 Speaker 1: workspace at speed. It would start having information that was 976 00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:09,600 Speaker 1: not shared, and that would result in inefficiencies. Yeah, that 977 00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:12,359 Speaker 1: that lines up, but I think rather well with this. Now. Now, 978 00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:14,799 Speaker 1: the second point that Shostack makes is that given the 979 00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:18,239 Speaker 1: very short time scale for improvement, uh, it would be 980 00:55:18,239 --> 00:55:21,800 Speaker 1: winner takes all. The first machine society to rise would 981 00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:25,400 Speaker 1: dominate at least within a certain volume of space. You know. 982 00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:28,920 Speaker 1: Going back to point number one. Um Now, he argues 983 00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:30,680 Speaker 1: that there there could be a little wiggle room for 984 00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:35,560 Speaker 1: some machine civilizations to overtake elder civilizations. Um. But that 985 00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:40,000 Speaker 1: a sufficiently advanced machine civilization could rule its fiefdom indefinitely. 986 00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:44,839 Speaker 1: Um Now. But but I wonder if if another way 987 00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:46,680 Speaker 1: of looking at this sort of thing would be, you know, 988 00:55:46,719 --> 00:55:49,640 Speaker 1: a resulting confederacy of machine culture is a kind of 989 00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:53,640 Speaker 1: multicultural machine super civilization where maybe you have the you know, 990 00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:58,239 Speaker 1: the one older, more advanced, and you know, unconquerable um 991 00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:01,240 Speaker 1: machine culture, but then it in that absorbing other ones 992 00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:03,840 Speaker 1: that are part of it, that have some purpose or 993 00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:08,360 Speaker 1: role within the machine whole, but are not like the 994 00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:12,400 Speaker 1: driving force, kind of like subservient machine cultures, I guess. 995 00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:16,719 Speaker 1: And then number three, even for machines, he points out, 996 00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:20,720 Speaker 1: space is dangerous and our Winnian selection would take place. Quote, 997 00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:23,360 Speaker 1: if a machine exists now, it's because its mode of 998 00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:27,440 Speaker 1: existence has kept this device from natural disaster or possibly 999 00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:31,960 Speaker 1: even from deliberate disaster. If such a phenomenon exists for machines, 1000 00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:34,560 Speaker 1: perhaps it makes a lot of copies, or at least 1001 00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:38,160 Speaker 1: a few copies, updating as necessary. It does something to 1002 00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:42,160 Speaker 1: withstand inevitable catastrophe. Yeah, that's very interesting. I mean to 1003 00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:44,960 Speaker 1: pick up on this. There's no reason to say that 1004 00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:50,080 Speaker 1: biological evolution is a process that is that is inherently 1005 00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:54,480 Speaker 1: tethered only to carbon based organisms that reproduce, you know, 1006 00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:58,320 Speaker 1: that have genetic code based on DNA, anything that's subject 1007 00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:01,799 Speaker 1: to survival and reproduction, And I would guess that machines, 1008 00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:04,880 Speaker 1: you know, computational machines would in some way be subject 1009 00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:08,480 Speaker 1: to survival and reproduction. They can make copies of themselves, Uh, 1010 00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:11,799 Speaker 1: they can iterate their code. That it seems like those 1011 00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:15,879 Speaker 1: things would be subject to a form of natural selection. Though. 1012 00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:18,560 Speaker 1: The interesting thing there would be, I guess, would would 1013 00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:22,200 Speaker 1: it be useful to think about their code in terms 1014 00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:25,520 Speaker 1: of something like genes, because of course, you know, genes 1015 00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:30,439 Speaker 1: within biological organisms can have gambits to survive on their 1016 00:57:30,440 --> 00:57:34,080 Speaker 1: own regardless of the success of the overall organism. Right Like, 1017 00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:36,800 Speaker 1: if an individual gene in your body figures out a 1018 00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:39,560 Speaker 1: way to make lots of copies of itself without regard 1019 00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:41,760 Speaker 1: to the health of its you know, to to the 1020 00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:43,800 Speaker 1: health of the body as a whole, it will do that. 1021 00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:45,960 Speaker 1: You know. It's it's the genes just trying to get 1022 00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:48,280 Speaker 1: out there. I wonder if you could look at individual 1023 00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:51,960 Speaker 1: pieces of I don't know what code or nodes or 1024 00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:55,640 Speaker 1: processing functions within a machine intelligence that would behave in 1025 00:57:55,680 --> 00:57:58,720 Speaker 1: the same way. Yeah, yeah, so you it seems like 1026 00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:02,200 Speaker 1: that idea you could you could come up with a 1027 00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:06,960 Speaker 1: concept where a machine civilization would have a tendency to 1028 00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:11,040 Speaker 1: colonize new areas, you know, because it would give itself 1029 00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:16,000 Speaker 1: room to uh to copy itself. Uh. And then of 1030 00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:20,080 Speaker 1: course you have to think about the constraints about processing speed. 1031 00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:22,760 Speaker 1: It's that run, you know, having you know, sticking to 1032 00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:25,560 Speaker 1: a local domain. But maybe that would allow for some 1033 00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:29,680 Speaker 1: level level of mechanical butting to take place. Yeah, maybe 1034 00:58:29,680 --> 00:58:32,560 Speaker 1: cutting off pieces of itself would actually make it more 1035 00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:38,040 Speaker 1: resilient to say, infection by viral bits of code. Yeah, well, 1036 00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:40,760 Speaker 1: you know, thinking about it even more now, So say 1037 00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:44,240 Speaker 1: so you have this mechanical supercivilization and it's again, is 1038 00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:47,520 Speaker 1: staying within a certain area? Well, if it is, if 1039 00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:49,680 Speaker 1: it definitely, if it wants to survive, if that is 1040 00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:52,200 Speaker 1: like a driving force in it, that is like just 1041 00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:56,320 Speaker 1: coded into it maybe from its biological you know, elder creators, 1042 00:58:57,000 --> 00:59:01,560 Speaker 1: then then perhaps copying its off not only within its realm, 1043 00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:05,040 Speaker 1: but in other realms like that is one way to 1044 00:59:05,120 --> 00:59:09,000 Speaker 1: try and survive, not only like nearby realms, maybe far 1045 00:59:09,080 --> 00:59:12,040 Speaker 1: flung realms, you know, uh, you know, to get outside 1046 00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:15,120 Speaker 1: of not only this star system, but this system of systems, 1047 00:59:15,120 --> 00:59:19,840 Speaker 1: to get outside of the galaxy if possible. That's interesting, Okay, folks, 1048 00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:22,120 Speaker 1: this is one of those episodes that went very long, 1049 00:59:22,160 --> 00:59:25,120 Speaker 1: and we have decided it is best to divide this 1050 00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:27,680 Speaker 1: talk in two parts, so we're gonna have to cut 1051 00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:30,880 Speaker 1: part one right here, but come back and join us 1052 00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:34,200 Speaker 1: on Thursday for the continuation of our discussion in part two. 1053 00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:36,360 Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you would like to check out 1054 00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:38,120 Speaker 1: other episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, you know 1055 00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:39,720 Speaker 1: where to find them in the Stuff to Blow your 1056 00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:42,520 Speaker 1: Mind podcast feed, and you'll get that wherever you find 1057 00:59:42,520 --> 00:59:45,320 Speaker 1: your podcast wherever that happens to be of the platform 1058 00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:47,320 Speaker 1: gives you the ability to do so. Just make sure 1059 00:59:47,320 --> 00:59:50,920 Speaker 1: you rate, review, and subscribe Huge things as always to 1060 00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:54,520 Speaker 1: our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would 1061 00:59:54,560 --> 00:59:56,440 Speaker 1: like to get in touch with us with feedback on 1062 00:59:56,440 --> 00:59:58,640 Speaker 1: this episode or any other, to suggest a topic for 1063 00:59:58,680 --> 01:00:00,760 Speaker 1: the future, just to say a lo you can email 1064 01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:11,680 Speaker 1: us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 1065 01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:14,160 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. 1066 01:00:14,520 --> 01:00:16,560 Speaker 1: For more podcasts for my heart Radio, this is the 1067 01:00:16,560 --> 01:00:19,440 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening 1068 01:00:19,480 --> 01:00:29,120 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.