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Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My

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Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. Time to bring

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Speaker 2: an episode out of the vault for viewing. I guess

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Speaker 2: it wouldn't be viewing because it's audio for listening. This

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Speaker 2: is part one of our series on the Fall of Valerian.

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Speaker 2: This was originally published on July nineteenth, twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 2: Let's jump right in.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert.

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Speaker 2: Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And Rob what's that sound?

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Speaker 2: Is that the sound of us digging down a historical

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Speaker 2: rabbit hole that you got interested in? What are we

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Speaker 2: doing today?

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Speaker 1: Oh? In this episode we are going to talk about

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Speaker 1: the fall of Valerian, Emperor Valerian of Rome. This is

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Speaker 1: this is this is going to be I think a

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Speaker 1: fun one, even though this is certainly going to be

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Speaker 1: more of a historical direction, not the first time that

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Speaker 1: we've we've gone down a historical rabbit hole, as you say,

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Speaker 1: but I think, as always it's important to remember in

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Speaker 1: this context, you know what histories are. It's kind of

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Speaker 1: like you have you have, you know, histories with capital aging,

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Speaker 1: histories with the lower case H. Histories in general, written histories,

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Speaker 1: oral histories, passed down histories, resurrected histories are accounts of

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Speaker 1: the past that very often have viewpoints, biases, agendas. They're

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Speaker 1: constructed from memories, evidence, and pre existing accounts, all of

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Speaker 1: which are subject to error. In short, interest in history

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Speaker 1: is not only a matter of what happened, but also

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Speaker 1: why did this version of what happened happen? Why is

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Speaker 1: this the account that was written down or told to others?

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Speaker 1: And these are all interesting questions to ask about the

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Speaker 1: fall of Emperor Valerian, questions that still remain today about

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Speaker 1: what actually happened to him, also how did the defeat

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Speaker 1: go down? But mostly what was his ultimate fate?

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Speaker 2: Ah. So here you're interested not only in a question

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Speaker 2: of history, as in what's the best we can figure

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Speaker 2: out what happened in the past, but a question of historiography.

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Speaker 2: Why did certain historians of the past write about history

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Speaker 2: in a certain way?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? And I think ultimately this is a story that

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Speaker 1: is interesting on both counts because it's also fascinating to

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Speaker 1: look at the various histories and piece together in your

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Speaker 1: mind this story of just countless on the Roman imperial side,

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Speaker 1: you know, just constant overthrow and backstabbing, this era of

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Speaker 1: chaos that sees just emperor after emperor fall, to all

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Speaker 1: of the infighting in Rome as well as to some

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Speaker 1: of the the fighting on the borders of the Roman

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Speaker 1: Empire as well. And yeah, then there's also this question

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Speaker 1: of well, what are these different stories regarding the fate

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Speaker 1: of Valarian, what do they mean, and how are we

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Speaker 1: supposed to interpret them from our modern standpoint.

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Speaker 2: So I'm just curious, how did you get interested in this,

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Speaker 2: in particular, this question about what happened to Emperor Valerian.

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Speaker 1: I think this was one of those kind of just

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Speaker 1: tangentsteering research where I just I was working on something

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Speaker 1: else and then I was curious. I was looking into

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Speaker 1: maybe various emperors and the fall of various emperors, and

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Speaker 1: then I started I think I initially just clicked on

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Speaker 1: on just like a basic page about Valerian and read

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Speaker 1: some grizzly details about what might have happened to him,

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Speaker 1: and that got me thinking. It was like, well, this

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Speaker 1: sounds this is really severe. You know, what were the

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Speaker 1: ramifications of this, and then I started digging in a little.

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Speaker 2: Deeper, classic rabbit hole dynamic.

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Speaker 1: All right, yeah, yeah, all right. So to begin with,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about where we're going to go in what

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Speaker 1: time period we're traveling to. For the most part, here

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Speaker 1: we have to journey to the Roman Empire during a

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Speaker 1: time that is known as the Crisis of the third Century,

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Speaker 1: a period of decades lasting from two thirty five to

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Speaker 1: two eighty four CE, during which the Roman Empire was

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Speaker 1: just defined by anarchy and strife, a time during which

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Speaker 1: it nearly collapsed. One of the books that I was

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Speaker 1: looking to for this is actually it's an older history book,

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Speaker 1: a series of popular history books came out many decades

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Speaker 1: ago from Will Durrant. This is the Story of Civilization.

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Speaker 1: And there's one section in the book that deals with

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Speaker 1: primarily with the Romans, titled the Collapse of the Empire.

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Speaker 1: And there's a great quote I want to read from

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Speaker 1: that quote, we shall not repeat in bloody detail the

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Speaker 1: names and battles and deaths of these emperors of anarchy.

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Speaker 1: In the thirty five years between Alexander Severus and Aurelian,

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Speaker 1: thirty seven men were proclaimed emperors.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to say it, that's too many emperors, that's

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Speaker 2: too many.

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Speaker 1: It is it is, it's that is just that is

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Speaker 1: that has a lot of emperors to go through in

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Speaker 1: such a short period of time, And like Will Durrant,

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Speaker 1: we are not going to go through all and we're

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Speaker 1: going to mention some of them, just to give you

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Speaker 1: a little color for just how much turmoil, how much

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Speaker 1: turnover there was. This was the time period during which

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Speaker 1: there was there was really not any job security to

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Speaker 1: being the emperor of Rome.

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Speaker 2: You know, one thing that's always interesting to me about

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Speaker 2: Roman history is not just that basically that all Roman

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Speaker 2: emperors are bad leaders by modern morals and modern standards,

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Speaker 2: but that most Roman emperors were bad leaders by Roman standards.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's when you start talking about, well, who are

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Speaker 1: the worst emperors, it's you can draw up a pretty

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Speaker 1: exhaustive list, and then they're actual. There are actually some

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Speaker 1: pretty pretty fun lists of this show you can find

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Speaker 1: on the internet. But a number of really bad ones

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Speaker 1: do occur during this time. Some of the other really

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Speaker 1: famous bad ones occur prior to this period. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: the Crisis of the Third Century runs from two thirty

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Speaker 1: five to two eighty four. So that race is the question.

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Speaker 1: What do these dates mean. Let's start with two thirty five.

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Speaker 1: In the year two thirty five, the Emperor Severus Alexander

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Speaker 1: is assassinated by his own troops. So Alexander had been

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Speaker 1: named emperor at age fourteen, and he was a progressive

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Speaker 1: figure in many respects who sought to restore the power

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Speaker 1: of the senate and the aristocracy and to weaken the

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Speaker 1: dominance of the Roman military. So he built libraries, public baths,

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Speaker 1: and other works in the empire. He engaged in various

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Speaker 1: economic programs to bring down interest rates and also help

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Speaker 1: the poor. Now I say progressive in many respects because

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Speaker 1: he also enforced various morality based laws that saw the

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Speaker 1: arrest of prostitutes the deportation of homosexuals. Still, consider that

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Speaker 1: previous emperors included the likes of Caligula, Nero, and Comitas.

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Speaker 1: These are all names that probably ring a bell in

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Speaker 1: everyone's head, you know some of the stories about these individuals.

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Speaker 2: Even if that scene from the movie where Caligula chops

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Speaker 2: off people's heads with a lawnmower didn't really happen in history,

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Speaker 2: Caligula was a really bad guy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's still kind of in the spirit of Caligula.

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Speaker 1: So Alexander's immediate predecessor was an emperor by the name

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Speaker 1: of Elagabalus who had died at age eighteen, following a

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Speaker 1: short reign that's noted mostly for scandals and excess, though

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Speaker 1: Durant notes that something you have to keep in mind,

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Speaker 1: I guess with a lot of these individuals is that

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Speaker 1: at least some of these scandals were probably fabricated by enemies,

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Speaker 1: of which Elagabalas had many in the senatorial class of

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Speaker 1: One of the many examples will be pointing to in

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Speaker 1: this episode where history and the truth is of course

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Speaker 1: tweaked to serve some sort of an agenda, but by

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Speaker 1: by all accounts, still not a great emperor. He hosted

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Speaker 1: weird lotteries, and there's actually an excellent horrible history sketch

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Speaker 1: from the historical comedy show on British television about this.

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Speaker 2: Oh you shared this with me, but I'm sorry I

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Speaker 2: did not have time to watch it yet. I can't

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Speaker 2: wait too once we're done here.

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Speaker 1: Basically, I mean the story is that, yeah, he was like,

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Speaker 1: well let's have a lottery, let's have some fun romans,

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Speaker 1: but you might win some money or a house, but

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Speaker 1: you also might win just a whole bunch of flies

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Speaker 1: or a poisonous snake things. So it's weird, you know,

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Speaker 1: in a way. It was kind of like very strange

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Speaker 1: reality television of this time period.

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Speaker 2: So I remember Eli Gabolis has come up on the

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Speaker 2: the show at least once before, because it was in

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Speaker 2: our invention episode on the history of air conditioning, and

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Speaker 2: there's a story told by I'm sorry, I forget the

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Speaker 2: Roman historian, but somebody tells a story about Eligabolis cooling

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Speaker 2: his orchard or his you know, the courtyard at his

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Speaker 2: palace by having people bring down snow from the tops

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Speaker 2: of a nearby mountain and pile it up just to

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Speaker 2: like keep things cool in the summer, which overall is

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Speaker 2: very inefficient. But I think we decided, well, if there's

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Speaker 2: a huge block of snow, that would actually sort of

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Speaker 2: cool off the area, especially if there's like breeze blowing

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Speaker 2: over it. So I guess, if that's true clever but

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Speaker 2: also kind of excessive. But then again, we also addressed

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Speaker 2: the question of whether or not that was true, because

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Speaker 2: I think the historian who told that story was a

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Speaker 2: marked adversary of the legacy of this emperor. Yeah, it

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Speaker 2: may have just been trying to make him look stupid, right.

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Speaker 1: And also, if you happen to be this teenage emperor

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Speaker 1: of Rome, I mean maybe you just asked that they

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Speaker 1: bring snow to your house once and then your enemies

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Speaker 1: find out about it and they're like, he brings snow

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Speaker 1: to his house every day. It's the most extravagant thing

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Speaker 1: I've ever heard of.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, remember when he created ice town.

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Speaker 1: At any rate, that that's the only good thing to

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Speaker 1: say about him, it seems, is that he did seem

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Speaker 1: interested in bol spring religious freedom in the empire. I

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Speaker 1: have only so he could keep worshiping the Syrian god

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Speaker 1: ball himself. So when Severus Alexander becomes emperor at age fourteen,

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Speaker 1: the same as his predecessor, things I guess seem to

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Speaker 1: be moving in a different direction, and his rule proved stable,

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Speaker 1: lasting thirteen years, the longest reign of a single emperor

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Speaker 1: in decades. At that point. He was a temperate figure,

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Speaker 1: and especially early on, his mother compandied it commanded a

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Speaker 1: great deal of power through him, and I think was

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Speaker 1: always a powerful figure in his administration, if you will,

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Speaker 1: Together they showed a certain amount of openness to the

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Speaker 1: practice of Judaism and Christianity within the empire. They even

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Speaker 1: lowered taxes. But of course he courted a powerful enemy

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Speaker 1: in attempting to reduce the power of the Roman military,

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Speaker 1: and Rome had many external enemies during this time, including

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Speaker 1: the Sasanian Empire, sometimes referred to as the Sassanid Empire

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Speaker 1: or sometimes referred to as a dynasty rather than an empire.

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Speaker 1: This is located in Persia and at this point in

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Speaker 1: time only recently established in two twenty four by the

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Speaker 1: founder Adashir the First So about eight years into Alexander's rule,

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Speaker 1: the Sasanian army under Adashir invades Mesopotamia and threatens Roman

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Speaker 1: held Syria. So Alexander initially responds by basically sending him

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Speaker 1: a statement condemning the violence of the invasion and telling look,

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Speaker 1: everyone should be content with current borders and domains, and

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Speaker 1: also kind of warning him if you're gonna mess with Rome,

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Speaker 1: you're not going to find it as easy as the

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Speaker 1: wars you've been waging previously. Now. Adashir, perhaps interpreting this

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Speaker 1: as weakness, then follows up by demanding all of Syria

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Speaker 1: and Asia minor from Rome and This results in a

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Speaker 1: direct military response from Alexander, and he manages to push

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Speaker 1: Sasanian forces out of Mesopotamia by two thirty three. But

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Speaker 1: that's when Rome's Germanic enemies to the north, the Alemanni

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Speaker 1: and the Marcomanni, attack, taking advantage of depleted northern forces

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Speaker 1: to attack Gaul. So Alexander and his mother they rejoined

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Speaker 1: the army, having only just briefly celebrated a sort of

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Speaker 1: victory over the Sasanians, and he leads the army to

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Speaker 1: meet this new threat. On his mother's advice, he pushes

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Speaker 1: for peace with the Germanic tribes, offering annual payments to

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Speaker 1: keep them in check. His own troops reportedly see this

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Speaker 1: as weakness. They also seem to have issues with his

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Speaker 1: mother's presence, and so they and of course, on top

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Speaker 1: of all this, they still hate him for his work

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Speaker 1: against the military, and so they mutiny against Alexander and

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Speaker 1: they assassinate him, his mother and some of his key people.

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Speaker 1: And this is the point where we begin these decades

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Speaker 1: of chaos. This is when we begin the crisis of

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Speaker 1: the third century.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so the young emperor his mom are dead. They're

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Speaker 2: they're they're they're out of power. Who's coming up next?

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Speaker 2: Who do they put in?

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Speaker 1: Well, a military man, of course, they lift up Maximinus Thracks,

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Speaker 1: a sixty two year old commander, and his rule would

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Speaker 1: last a mere three years because everything just descends into

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Speaker 1: civil war and death at this point, beginning the Crisis

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Speaker 1: of the third century in earnest and immediately bringing about

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Speaker 1: the what is sometimes called the Year of Six Emperors

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Speaker 1: in two thirty eight, when six different men claim to

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Speaker 1: be Emperor of Rome.

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Speaker 2: Man, you thought two popes at the same time was

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Speaker 2: too much.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so the following decades, Yes, we're in fact bloody

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Speaker 1: and chaotic, with again thirty seven different proclaimed Roman emperors

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Speaker 1: during just a thirty five year time period. Internal factors

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Speaker 1: weakened the state, foreign enemies threatened on every front. This

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Speaker 1: period of crisis lasted until two eighty four, when the

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Speaker 1: Empire was stabilized once more with the reign of Diocletian,

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Speaker 1: who reigned twenty one years and then voluntarily retired and

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Speaker 1: died of get this natural causes. All of this stands

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Speaker 1: in start contrast to the short, bloody and doomed reigns

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Speaker 1: of most of the emperors preceding him.

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Speaker 2: Diocletian is an interesting figure. I'm certainly no expert on

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Speaker 2: his life, but I know one thing about him is

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Speaker 2: that he actually had the the unusual seeming insight that

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Speaker 2: maybe hereditary rule is stupid and causing a lot of

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Speaker 2: problems because if you're just like trying to hand power

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Speaker 2: off to your son, your son might not actually be

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Speaker 2: good at anything, it might not be very smart. So instead,

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Speaker 2: what you should have is a system where power is

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Speaker 2: shared between I think the idea came up with was

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Speaker 2: the tetrarchy, that there would be four rulers who would

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Speaker 2: rule over different parts of the empire. They would make

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Speaker 2: decisions together, and then then after they were in charge,

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Speaker 2: they would pass on their office not to their sons,

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Speaker 2: but to like basically people they're mentees, people who they

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Speaker 2: had trained allegedly on the basis of merit. Though I

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Speaker 2: think that pretty quickly devolved into hereditary rule again with

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Speaker 2: Constantine's father trying to pass stuff on to Constantine.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, this whole question over hereditary rule is interesting

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Speaker 1: because I mean, from a modern perspective, we look at

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Speaker 1: it and we say, well, this is off is a

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Speaker 1: bad idea. There's so much that can go wrong with

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Speaker 1: and you look at these historical examples of fourteen year

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Speaker 1: old emperors and it just seems insane. Like, my son,

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Speaker 1: I have to realize with horror, will be fourteen in

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Speaker 1: four years. I cannot imagine him as a fourteen year

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Speaker 1: old emperor.

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Speaker 2: But your son is so much nicer than any Roman

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Speaker 2: emperor that ever lived.

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Speaker 1: Well, at this point, he hasn't become emperor yet, he.

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Speaker 2: Has a tasted power.

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Speaker 1: But you know, the other interesting side of this is

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Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier that Severus Alexander and his mother, one

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Speaker 1: of their ideas was, all right, let's put the power

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Speaker 1: back in more in the hands of the aristocracy, let's

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Speaker 1: get it away from from the military a bit. And

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Speaker 1: apparently one of the arguments in this is, well, hey,

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Speaker 1: at least with hereditary rule, there's a structure. You know,

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Speaker 1: if you're looking at an alternative that involves just sort

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Speaker 1: of endless parades of soldier kings, then how are you

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Speaker 1: supposed to work with that? And indeed, I guess you

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Speaker 1: could look at the Crisis of the third century as

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Speaker 1: an example of what happens when you're ruled mostly by

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Speaker 1: soldier kings trying to murder each other or trying to

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Speaker 1: nearly avoid being murdered by your own soldiers. Not saying

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Speaker 1: hereditary rule is a great idea, but I'm just saying

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Speaker 1: you can see where people can maybe waffle back and

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Speaker 1: forth as these different systems results in chaos.

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Speaker 2: I think all of these stories are just a brilliant

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Speaker 2: advertisement for liberal democracy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, So these various imperial stories we've looked

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Speaker 1: at so far, these are mostly just to set the

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Speaker 1: stage for the story of Emperor Valerian, who reigned two

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Speaker 1: fifty three through two sixty right in the middle of

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Speaker 1: the crisis of the third century, and his two is

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Speaker 1: a tale of blood and doom, but also a good

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Speaker 1: deal more. And don't worry. If you're out there right

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Speaker 1: now listening to the show and thinking, well, I wonder

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Speaker 1: if there'll be any science, don't worry. We do have

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Speaker 1: a short science paper that ties into everything later on.

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Speaker 1: All right, I'm going to read another quote from Will Durant,

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Speaker 1: because this is another one that I thought was rather nice,

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Speaker 1: And this is again from the Collapse of the Empire

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Speaker 1: and the Story of Civilization Part three. Quote the new

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Speaker 1: Emperor Valerian already sixty and facing war at once with

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Speaker 1: the Franks, The Alemanni, the Marcomanni, the Goths, the Scythians,

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Speaker 1: and the Persians, made his son ruler of the Western Empire,

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Speaker 1: kept the East for himself, and led an army into Mesopotamia.

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Speaker 1: He was too old for his tasks and soon succumbed.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so he's going east to fight.

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Speaker 1: Right, and it's not going to end well. And granted,

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Speaker 1: Durant's covering a lot of territory in these books, so

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Speaker 1: this is basically all he has to say about the

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Speaker 1: episode with Valerian right there. But there are other histories,

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Speaker 1: of course that give us a lot more details and

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Speaker 1: also some questionable details as we'll get into. So the crisis,

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Speaker 1: so the third century against a number of would be

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Speaker 1: emperors rise up through the military ranks, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of them were purely of military stock. Valerian, however, actually

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Speaker 1: came from the senatorial class, so he was essentially a nobleman,

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Speaker 1: and his roles in the state were largely more political

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Speaker 1: for the most part earlier on, and it was only

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Speaker 1: later that he was appointed as a ducks or leader

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Speaker 1: in the military. And he had two sons, Galienus and Licinius.

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Speaker 1: Now to set the stage for Valerian's rule. Here's how

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Speaker 1: the three previous rules ended. First of all, there's Emperor Decius,

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Speaker 1: who reigned two forty nine through two fifty one. Died

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Speaker 1: at the Battle of Verona, one of the worst military

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Speaker 1: disasters in Roman history. According to Durant, either of wounds

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Speaker 1: sustained against the enemy or he was assassinated by his

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Speaker 1: own troops. There's some discussion over which it was. At home,

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Speaker 1: he had sought to restore Roman moraley and ordered the

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Speaker 1: destruction of Christianity. This will become important later on.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, because so there has long been a sort

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Speaker 2: of meme among Christians that Christianity was just fundamentally like

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Speaker 2: illegal in the Roman Empire and constantly totally persecuted, which

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Speaker 2: is not actually true.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the.

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Speaker 2: Romans were absolutely evil, and you wouldn't say tolerant generally,

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Speaker 2: but they were broadly religiously tolerant. They didn't care what

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Speaker 2: people's religion was most of the time. But there would

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Speaker 2: be occasional, sporadic outbreaks of persecution of Christians for various reasons.

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Speaker 2: They were accused of being responsible for various calamities because

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Speaker 2: they were accused of being atheists, as in not believing

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Speaker 2: in the Roman gods and not making sacrifices to them,

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Speaker 2: and so you know, not contributing basically to the quid

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Speaker 2: pro quo that kept the gods happy and kept everybody's

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Speaker 2: fate good. But also I think they were sometimes accused

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Speaker 2: of sort of disloyalty to the emperor if they wouldn't

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Speaker 2: make a burned offering to Caesar. So occasionally these persecutions

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Speaker 2: would break out, and I think under Deshis was if

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Speaker 2: I recall some of the worst persecution of Christians.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but yeah, like you say, it kind of

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Speaker 1: goes emperor to emperor. So you'll have a period of

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Speaker 1: some of these periods. These rules are pretty brief, especially

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Speaker 1: during this period, this time period. But yeah, one emperor

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Speaker 1: may just be like, uh, you know, it's all right whatever, Judaism, Christianity,

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Speaker 1: it's all good. I'm busy with other things. And then

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Speaker 1: someone will come along and say, well, one of the

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Speaker 1: problems here is we have to return to Roman moral

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Speaker 1: values or Roman traditions and Roman rights need to be preserved,

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Speaker 1: all right. So that was one of the three preceding Valerian.

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Speaker 1: The other was Gallis, who not lived but reigned two

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Speaker 1: fifty one through two fifty three. He was definitely murdered

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Speaker 1: by his own troops. He also had two co emperors

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Speaker 1: that died of plague or murder, We're not sure which.

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Speaker 1: And then there's a Milianus who reigned June through September

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Speaker 1: in the year two fifty three. That's a nice short one.

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Speaker 1: He was, guess what, murdered by his own troops. So

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Speaker 1: this is just a taste of how unstable again the

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Speaker 1: position of emperor was at this time, as Valerian himself

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Speaker 1: is named emperor by Amalanius, his own defecting legions. But

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Speaker 1: even as internal strife at least temporarily slightly settled around

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Speaker 1: this new emperor Valerian, and you have a I guess,

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Speaker 1: a cessation of just open civil war, there are still

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Speaker 1: plenty of would be usurpers in the Roman ranks. Plus

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Speaker 1: Rome still faces threats from all of its external enemies,

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Speaker 1: including the Sasanian Empire in the east. So Valerian he

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Speaker 1: puts his son Galienus in charge of the West and

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Speaker 1: occupies himself with the East and the threat posed by

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Speaker 1: the Sasanians in Persia. Okay, and meanwhile at home, we

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Speaker 1: should also know coming back to the issue of Christian persecution.

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Speaker 1: That Valerian is also remembered for the persecution of Christians

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Speaker 1: in Rome. He had ordered that all must conform to

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Speaker 1: Roman ceremonials and that Christian assemblages are forbidden. And then

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Speaker 1: when Pope Sixtus the Second resists, the Pope is beheaded

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Speaker 1: and seven of his deacons are executed as well. Christians

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Speaker 1: at the time and even in times thereafter, really have

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Speaker 1: a hard time letting this one go.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no pity for the pope killer.

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Speaker 1: Now, at this point, I'd like us to turn to

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Speaker 1: the Sasanian Empire, because a number of you might not

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Speaker 1: be very familiar with what we're talking about here, and

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Speaker 1: I wasn't that familiar with the Sasanian Empire either prior

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Speaker 1: to this research. So I turned in part to a

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Speaker 1: book titled Sasanian Iran two twenty four through six fifty

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Speaker 1: one CE by Turaj Dhari On Iranian irenologist and historian

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Speaker 1: at the University of California, Irvine. He's published a number

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Speaker 1: of books over the years, and you also can find

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Speaker 1: various speaking engagements and whatnot that he's done concerning not

408
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Speaker 1: only ancient Iran but also the modern state of Iran

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Speaker 1: and global affairs and so forth. So in the openings

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Speaker 1: of the book, Dary points some things out about our

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Speaker 1: understanding of ancient history that I thought were very illuminating.

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Speaker 1: He points out, of course, that ancient history in the

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Speaker 1: West especially is often very Eurocentric, with excessive energy focused

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Speaker 1: on European, Greek and Roman cultures and histories, which can

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Speaker 1: of course come at the expense of understanding other powerful

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Speaker 1: and important cultures. And this is often, he says, utilized

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Speaker 1: to set up this narrative that European and Western power

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Speaker 1: is a kind of continuous success story that extends back

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Speaker 1: through these cultures. But Dhary points out that not only

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Speaker 1: is such a focus detrimental to understanding, say, the nation's

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Speaker 1: bordering the Roman Empire during this time period, but you

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Speaker 1: also can't look at the Roman Empire in a vacuum.

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Speaker 1: You have to look at you have to understand the

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Speaker 1: nations that it's interacting with and that it's warring with.

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Speaker 1: Otherwise you're also denying yourself a full understanding of say Rome.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, that's true in many ways. I'd say one

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Speaker 2: of the most baseline is remembering that the Roman Empire

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Speaker 2: when it during its great expansion. Most of the people

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Speaker 2: in the Roman Empire were not Romans. They were people

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Speaker 2: living in conquered territories who were under Roman rule.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and in many cases, individuals fighting for the Roman

432
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 1: military are auxiliary troops that are that are brought in

433
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 1: from regions outside of Rome proper. Yeah, but I love this.

434
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:45,880
Speaker 1: I mean it's kind of one of these things where

435
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 1: once it's stated, it seems so obvious. But yeah, it's

436
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 1: like it's like if you were to ask somebody, hey,

437
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 1: what's your favorite boxer and they're like, oh, Muhammad Ali,

438
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 1: and then you're like, oh, what was your favorite opponent

439
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:58,479
Speaker 1: and they're like, oh, I don't know any other boxers,

440
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 1: I just know mommeter. How much can you really understand

441
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 1: this athlete if you don't understand the athletes he competed

442
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 1: against and with and so forth. You know, that's an oversimplification.

443
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 1: But the Yeah, I think this is a really valid point.

444
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 1: And I have to say, when I think back about

445
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 1: when I was first learning about, say, the decline of Rome,

446
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,880
Speaker 1: I feel like there was this feeling that Holy Rome

447
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 1: is this wounded lion, and you have all these other

448
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,919
Speaker 1: kingdoms that are sort of snapping at its heels like hyenas.

449
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,360
Speaker 1: But this is certainly not the case with the Sasanian Empire.

450
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 1: So what was the Sasanian Empire sometimes called the Empire

451
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 1: of the Iranians or the Neo Persian Empire. Well, it

452
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,400
Speaker 1: all begins with the reign of Adashir the First, also

453
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 1: known as Adashir the Unifier, who indeed unified the Iranian

454
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:53,439
Speaker 1: Plateau in two twenty four. You'll remember him from just

455
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 1: a little bit earlier as the ruler who tangles with

456
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 1: Severus Alexander. So de Rey writes that it was an

457
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:05,160
Speaker 1: enormous undertaking to unite the Iranian plateau under one rule

458
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 1: at this time. But the exact origins of the House

459
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 1: of Sasain and Adashir the First are somewhat shrouded in mystery.

460
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,119
Speaker 1: He apparently picked Ssaine as the name for his house,

461
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,120
Speaker 1: as it may have been the name of a protective deity,

462
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 1: but I don't think we know for sure. And it

463
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 1: seems that while Adashir may have had a background in Zoroastrianism,

464
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 1: so his father Pabog may have been a fire temple priest,

465
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,119
Speaker 1: he was still essentially an upstart. And I thought this

466
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 1: passage from Dare is rather eliminating quote. Furthermore, it was

467
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:45,439
Speaker 1: claimed that Adashir was Adashir the Kayanid, the son of

468
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 1: Pabag of the race of Sosain, from the family of

469
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 1: King Dare. When looking at this line, one gets the

470
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 1: sense that every possible connection to divinity, royalty, and nobility

471
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 1: was evoked by Ardashir, which can only that he was

472
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 1: none of them. So another example of the powerful tinkering

473
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:08,359
Speaker 1: with history, right, the falsification of one's lineage to tie

474
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 1: in with the noble, the royal, and the divine.

475
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 2: You know, sometimes when I look at these ancient rulers

476
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 2: and I see the I know there's a specific term

477
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:18,199
Speaker 2: for this, I forget what it is, you know, the

478
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 2: list of prestigious things that would be said after their name,

479
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 2: so it's king whatever, you know. And then all these

480
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:29,120
Speaker 2: associations with nobility, lineage, deity, royalty and stuff. It reminds

481
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 2: me of keyword stuffing in the like. You know that

482
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 2: that era where you and I first started getting into

483
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 2: digital content on the Internet, and all these companies that

484
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 2: we were competing with, We're doing this thing where they

485
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 2: would try to rank higher and Google results by just

486
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 2: loading tons of irrelevant metadata garbage into every page, So

487
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 2: it's like, is this page really about Metallica? No, but

488
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 2: it's in the meta.

489
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, the meta keywords. That list is longer than

490
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 1: the actual post, right, So ought to share the first

491
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 1: is definitely bringing the metadata to hear, but I should

492
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 1: drive home he does have the power to back it up.

493
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 1: This is just about securing the power, supporting the power

494
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 1: by making these perhaps making these claims to divinity, royalty,

495
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: and nobility now in gaining this power, though, Ardashir the

496
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 1: First possibly won his rule through conflict, not only with

497
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 1: rival Iranian kings, perhaps even family members. So in piecing

498
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 1: together the histories, Daara mentions that Ardashir's father may have

499
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 1: dethroned an important king, and Ardashir then may have taken

500
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 1: to the field of battle against his own brother, but

501
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 1: his brother died unexpectedly before this battle could occur. This

502
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 1: raises the specter of possible assassination. We will never know

503
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 1: for sure, but yeah, he's seemingly perhaps rebelled against his

504
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 1: own father and against or against his own brother after

505
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 1: his father's death, So there's inviting in the family on

506
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 1: this ascension toward becoming the king of kings. He also

507
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 1: has this decade long war against Artiwan the Fourth, further

508
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 1: expansions across the Iranian plateau challenges from other local war lords.

509
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 1: Some of these warlords are fighting on Artiwan the Fourth

510
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 1: be half. Ardashir the First also has to deal with

511
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 1: challenges from other brothers, and finally, Artiwan the Fourth, his

512
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 1: main rival, takes the field with his armies against Ardashir

513
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 1: the First and perishes. Ardashir the First becomes the King

514
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 1: of Kings and the Sasanian Empire is born. Now, as

515
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 1: we already alluded to, Ardashir the First expands his territory

516
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 1: from here and eventually enters into conflict with Rome over

517
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 1: Syria and Asia Minor. And there's there's really no clear

518
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 1: winner to this conflict. Certainly, Alexander Severus and his mother,

519
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 1: you know, celebrate that they have some sort of a

520
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 1: victory here, but it sounds like both sides were somewhat

521
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 1: reduced and exhausted by this whole series of battles, and

522
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 1: no one was truly victorious. But Alexander Severus is able

523
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: to hold onto Roman territory here in the Asia Minor,

524
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 1: but after his death, the Sasanians are able to then

525
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: annex several regions. Daray notes, however, that Ardashir the first

526
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 1: challenged to Rome was probably not mere expansionist hubris, as

527
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 1: Alexander's letter alleges that it is, but that it was

528
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 1: probably an attempt to stave off further Roman expansion into

529
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 1: their region.

530
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 2: This is one of the nasty problems of the imperial mindset, right.

531
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 2: So you have empires with borders touching, you can always

532
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 2: justify conquest and expansion of borders, which means killing people,

533
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 2: you know, military expansion as defensive because it's like, well,

534
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 2: I got to get more of a buffer out from

535
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 2: my territory because what if they do it to me exactly.

536
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:55,719
Speaker 1: And so you have all these these peoples in between

537
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 1: these empires that are that are really seeing some of

538
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 1: the worst of it. And yeah, the imperial mindset on

539
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 1: both sides, Like you say, so the important thing to

540
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 1: keep him. I know I'm throwing a lot of names

541
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,719
Speaker 1: out there, but yeah, Ardashir the first, this is the

542
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 1: beginning of the Sasanian Empire. He consolidates power, he is

543
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 1: a true threat. He's already engaging in warfare against the Romans.

544
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 1: But then Ardashir the first does again is what seems

545
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 1: may seem unthinkable at the time. He retires and passes

546
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 1: leadership on to his son, and his son is Chahbur

547
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 1: the First, and he, Shahbur the First, becomes the leader

548
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 1: of the Sasanian Empire in two forty and this is

549
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 1: the ruler that comes into direct conflict with Emperor Valerian.

550
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 2: Okay.

551
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: Now, note that it would be twenty years before Valerians

552
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 1: fall at this point at the Battle of Odessa, and

553
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 1: thirty years before Shahbur's reign ends due to death from illness.

554
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 1: So while Rome is racked by instability and infighting during

555
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 1: this time period, the Sasanian Empire is actually incredibly strong.

556
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 1: Now that's not to say that there aren't dynastic squabbles

557
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 1: going on in the Sasanian Empire under Shahbur. There are.

558
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 1: He's still having to deal with challenges from even some

559
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: of his other brothers, you know, the other potential usurpers.

560
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 1: So it's not saying that the kingdom is one hundred

561
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 1: percent peaceful, but during this time period when there's so

562
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 1: much turmoil, especially going on in the Roman Empire, the

563
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 1: Susanian Empire is pretty solid. Now, Shahbur the First had

564
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 1: been well prepared for rule. According to the sources I

565
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 1: was reading here, especially Dare, he had accompanied his father

566
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,400
Speaker 1: on the battlefield, ensuring that he was just ready to

567
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 1: take the fight to his enemies, including whoever happened to

568
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 1: be calling themselves Roman Emperor, at any given moment, And

569
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 1: of course it changes a lot, and of course battles

570
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: continue between the two empires in Mesopotamia. In fact, in

571
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 1: two forty three, Roman Emperor Gordian the Third invades Mesopotamia

572
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 1: in an attempt to retake territory that had been previously

573
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 1: held by Rome under Alexander Severus with an auxiliary army

574
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 1: of mostly Gothic and German soldiers, and that following year

575
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,320
Speaker 1: Gordian the Third is dead. A Shabur the First claims

576
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 1: that he killed the emperor in battle, but it seems

577
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,240
Speaker 1: like possibly the truth here, as the emperor died away

578
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 1: from any known battles and might have been guess what

579
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 1: killed by his own soldiers. But again we see the

580
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 1: fluid and power serving nature of histories here. If you're

581
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 1: Shabur the First and you know that during the conflicts

582
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 1: that you're engaging in against the Roman Emperor, that the

583
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 1: Roman emperor is dead, might as well go ahead and

584
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 1: claim that kill for at least your troops, if not

585
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 1: you personally. And that was only Yeah, yeah, that'll back

586
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 1: up your power. And then after this the following emperor

587
00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:00,799
Speaker 1: makes concessions, essentially becomes a tributary, if you will. And

588
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 1: this is the way that the Sasanians end up framing it.

589
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 1: And in two sixty Shabur pushes further into Mesopotamia and

590
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:13,359
Speaker 1: comes into conflict with Emperor Valerian. So at this point, yeah,

591
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 1: we're going to get to the Battle of Edessa. This

592
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 1: is the crucial battle in this whole scenario. It counts

593
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 1: among the worst Roman military disasters in history. On one hand, again,

594
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,360
Speaker 1: we have the forces of the Sasanian Empire under Shabur

595
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 1: the First and here we have Roman forces under Emperor Valarian.

596
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 1: So one of my chief sources here was Udo Hartman's

597
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 1: The Third Century Crisis from the Encyclopedia of Ancient Battles

598
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:42,879
Speaker 1: that came out in twenty seventeen, which provides a nice

599
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 1: summary of what we know and what some of the

600
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 1: histories say concerning the Battle of Edessa and its aftermath.

601
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 1: So let's go ahead and hit the basics here. Okay,

602
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 1: so where is this taking place? For the most part,

603
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 1: we're talking about Odessa, an ancient city, and what is

604
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 1: now Turkey. More precisely, this battle may have occurred somewhere

605
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 1: between the cities of Care and Edessa. When did this occur?

606
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 1: This is again the year two sixty and it's spring.

607
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 1: And then we have the two forces. Well, so let's

608
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 1: start with the Roman forces. This is the one we

609
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 1: actually have some numbers on. Whether those numbers are correct

610
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 1: or not. As a matter of discussion, we don't know

611
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 1: for sure exactly what the troop count was, but Shabur

612
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,720
Speaker 1: the first puts it at seventy thousand, which is probably

613
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 1: an exaggeration to enhance his victory, but Dare gives us

614
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 1: sixty thousand. It does seem that Valerian had pretty strong numbers,

615
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 1: bolstered by troops originally stationed to the north of Rome

616
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:44,320
Speaker 1: to deal with Germanic threats, and so essentially the troops

617
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:47,280
Speaker 1: here under Valerian it's going to be some makeup of Roman,

618
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 1: Germanic and Gothic troops. That seems a safe assumption.

619
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 2: Okay, so tens of thousands at least, this is They're

620
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 2: not playing around.

621
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I haven't seen any body suggesting that this

622
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 1: is just a small, ragged group. Now this is this

623
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,359
Speaker 1: is a large army led by an emperor of Rome,

624
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 1: so you know it's it's not to be underestimated. On

625
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:10,759
Speaker 1: the other hand, we have the Susanian forces here, and

626
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:13,800
Speaker 1: this numbers here seem to just be unknown. I haven't

627
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,359
Speaker 1: even run across a source that ventures a guess at

628
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 1: what the numbers were, though I suppose we You know,

629
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 1: you could probably loosely speculate if you roll through some

630
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 1: of the possible scenarios, about just how large the force

631
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 1: might need to be to pull off the victory. Though

632
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 1: we have to remember that troop size alone is not

633
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:36,359
Speaker 1: necessarily determinant for victory, nor is fighting strength. I try

634
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:40,839
Speaker 1: to go back to some of the writings of Brett Devereaux,

635
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 1: who has a wonderful history blog about ancient battles, and

636
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 1: he always points out, quote the question is always achieving

637
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,839
Speaker 1: strategic objectives and that that is ultimately more important than

638
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,760
Speaker 1: the fighting strength. So you'll have certain ancient armies, for example,

639
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,760
Speaker 1: that you can say their fighting strength was was greater

640
00:37:57,880 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 1: than this other force, but are they able to pour

641
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 1: a pull off strategic objectives are the other mechanisms of

642
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:07,319
Speaker 1: warfare working in their favor. Devereux's blog, by the way,

643
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 1: is a collection of unmitigated pedantry, well worth checking out

644
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 1: if you're interested in ancient warfare, as well as sort

645
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 1: of the echoes of ancient warfare that you find in

646
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:20,799
Speaker 1: things like The Lord of the Rings, the books, in

647
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 1: the movies, or the movie three hundred, for example, things

648
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 1: of that nature. He does a great job dissecting them

649
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 1: and talking about like what the history actually tells us.

650
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 1: You know.

651
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 2: This also reminds me of something that came up in

652
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 2: episodes we did a few years ago about warfare between

653
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 2: ant colonies, which is a principle in warfare scholarship sometimes

654
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:46,359
Speaker 2: known as Lanchester's laws, Lanchester's linear law and Lanchester's square law.

655
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 2: They're not actually laws, they're not laws of nature. They're

656
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 2: just approximations modeling how different types of battles tend to

657
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,839
Speaker 2: work in reality. And I'm going to gloss over some

658
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 2: of the details here, but basically my memory is that

659
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 2: it found that, you know, really like the individual effectiveness

660
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 2: of units and tactics are usually more decisive in ancient

661
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 2: combat than they are in modern combat, because in shooting

662
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 2: wars where where individual you know, tanks or soldiers can

663
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 2: basically shoot in any direction at any time, can engage

664
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,919
Speaker 2: in any direction at any time. What you always want

665
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 2: is to have overwhelming numbers. You know, you would rather

666
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 2: defeat the enemy in detail, so attack small units of

667
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,760
Speaker 2: theirs with larger units of yours, so you suffer minimal losses,

668
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 2: and do that over and over again. But in ancient combat,

669
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 2: like individual little tactical decisions could swing things wildly in

670
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:42,760
Speaker 2: the favor of smaller armies.

671
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then if you throw in additional factors that

672
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 1: are definitely in play during this time, including potential mutinies

673
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:54,400
Speaker 1: from your own troops, plague and illness, and some of

674
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:56,319
Speaker 1: the other factors that we'll get into that may have

675
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 1: been in play, particularly at the Battle of Odessa.

676
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 2: Go back and listen to the ant Work episodes if

677
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 2: you want more detail on the Lanchester's laws.

678
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:11,759
Speaker 1: All right, so at this point, you know, you might

679
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 1: you might wonder, like, Okay, are they're going to really

680
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 1: get into the nitty gritty here about the movements of

681
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 1: the troops and so forth. This is going to be

682
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 1: like one of those battles that they teach where they

683
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:22,839
Speaker 1: talk about, all right, this is where Valarian went wrong.

684
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 1: Here and here this is these are the advantages that

685
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:29,279
Speaker 1: the Sasanians had tactically. No, this is one of those

686
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 1: battles where, even if we wanted to get into those

687
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 1: sorts of details, we just don't have them. We don't

688
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:40,280
Speaker 1: know exactly how the battle proceeded. There are some different

689
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:42,319
Speaker 1: versions of how it might have gone, and we'll get

690
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:46,280
Speaker 1: into that. However, the immediate outcome is not in question.

691
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 1: The Sasanians secure absolute victory over the Roman forces. Emperor

692
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,759
Speaker 1: Valerian and some of his senators and soldiers are taken

693
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,880
Speaker 1: as prisoners. And while the Sasanians seem to have suffered

694
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 1: minimal casualties, the Roman losses, I mean some estimates put

695
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:06,400
Speaker 1: them at like sixty thousand or so. So it's just

696
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:09,880
Speaker 1: again a complete military disaster for the Roman forces. And

697
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:13,879
Speaker 1: so you're probably wondering, Okay, even in an age full

698
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:17,320
Speaker 1: of emperors and kings, and in which emperors and kings

699
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 1: are often present at the battles and sometimes die in battles,

700
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 1: we've already looked at an example or two of that,

701
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 1: how is it that a disaster of this magnitude can

702
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:30,480
Speaker 1: take place. How can you wind up with your emperor

703
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 1: in the hands of the enemy forces without them having

704
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 1: actually invaded Rome or something of that nature. Well, as

705
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 1: Hartman summarizes, we basically have three different accounts in the

706
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:48,359
Speaker 1: Western histories of what happened, and again we have to

707
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 1: acknowledge that some or all of them have agendas in

708
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: their telling. So, first of all, there's the Zowsamous accounts

709
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 1: Ossamus is riding at the dawn of the sixth century.

710
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,440
Speaker 1: This version goes basically, Valerian is cowardly. He wants to

711
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 1: settle things financially, which we have to mention is a

712
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 1: tool that had been used by the Romans before. You know,

713
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 1: just meet with the enemy, pay the enemy, and we

714
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 1: can put this off for a while. But this story

715
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 1: goes that Shahbur the first rejects Valerian's envoy and says, hey,

716
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:23,839
Speaker 1: I'm only going to deal with the emperor himself, and

717
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 1: then Valerian says, okay, that sounds fine. They meet and

718
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 1: Valerian is taken prisoner.

719
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,400
Speaker 2: Okay. So scene based on this that this account is

720
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 2: attempting to make Valerian look weak and cowardly, and Shabur

721
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:37,400
Speaker 2: look devious.

722
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 1: Right, And apparently this is a common trend, and we

723
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 1: can see as well. Hartman points this out that like

724
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 1: this is a classic way of trying to take the

725
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 1: blame away from Rome and the Roman military itself, a

726
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 1: way to sort of excuse the loss by saying, well,

727
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 1: the Rome is strong, the military is strong, but unfortunately

728
00:42:57,640 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 1: we had a cowardly emperor here and we had a

729
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:02,840
Speaker 1: very daystardly opponent. What can you do now? A couple

730
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 1: of later, this is centuries later, historians give us a

731
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 1: different version. This comes to us from George Sincellus, who

732
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 1: died sometime after eight ten, and Zonaras who lived something

733
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:23,239
Speaker 1: like ten seventy through eleven forty. And in these accounts,

734
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:27,759
Speaker 1: Valerian's forces were actually besieged in Edessa and they were

735
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:33,800
Speaker 1: facing starvation there. Valerian, fearful of a military mutiny, chose

736
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 1: to surrender to the Susanian forces and only went through

737
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 1: the motions of resistance casually. Has ended up being pretty

738
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:44,800
Speaker 1: low because some of the Roman forces recognized the deception

739
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:45,840
Speaker 1: and flee.

740
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:49,240
Speaker 2: Oh so, is it possible again, if there's any truth

741
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 2: to this, is it possible that Valerian's like I might

742
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 2: actually have a better chance of surviving personally if I'm

743
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:57,879
Speaker 2: taken prisoner by the enemy than if I'm left here

744
00:43:57,880 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 2: with my own troops.

745
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:01,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's ms to be the idea that they're getting

746
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 1: out of here. And and again this this is so brief.

747
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 1: It seems like there are a number of plot holes

748
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:08,279
Speaker 1: that might emerge here, like, well, how are they how

749
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:12,359
Speaker 1: are the Roman forces fleeing? Are they are the how

750
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 1: what are the exact conditions of the siege, et cetera.

751
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,759
Speaker 1: We don't know. Uh, this is just one idea. But

752
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:23,279
Speaker 1: Zanaris has another account that's interesting that again Hartman shares here.

753
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 1: And in this one, Shahbor the first has Edessa besieged,

754
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:30,760
Speaker 1: but Valerian's forces are not in the city of Odessa.

755
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:35,279
Speaker 1: They're arriving outside of all of this. They see the

756
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 1: siege going on, and they see that the Sasanian forces

757
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 1: are really, really big, perhaps larger than their own. It's

758
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 1: a very imposing force. So they're reluctant to attack. But

759
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 1: then they get intelligence that tells them that the Odessian

760
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 1: forces are mounting a promising counter attack against the besiegers,

761
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 1: against the Sasanians, and so Valerian decides well, this is

762
00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 1: our chance, this is our opportunity, and they need to

763
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 1: attack now. But then they end up routed and surrounded

764
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 1: by the Susanian army and taken prisoner. So it's kind

765
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:09,719
Speaker 1: of interesting to look at these different things and sort

766
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:12,400
Speaker 1: of try and piece together the sort of situation that

767
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:16,440
Speaker 1: might have happened. Again, thinking about these tensions involving a

768
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:21,960
Speaker 1: potential besiegement either of Roman forces or of another player

769
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:27,880
Speaker 1: in the conflict, the possibility then of Valerian having to

770
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:32,759
Speaker 1: deal with potential mutinies occurring within his own ranks, potential desertions,

771
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:35,439
Speaker 1: and perhaps weighing like who he has a better chance

772
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 1: of survival with, perhaps the situation where he's dealing with

773
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,719
Speaker 1: potential mutinies and wants to work out some sort of

774
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 1: a deal but do so without getting himself killed by

775
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 1: his own troops. It seems like there may have been

776
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 1: a lot of factors at play here, but as again

777
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:56,560
Speaker 1: as Hartman points out, when it comes to Western sources,

778
00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 1: the two main narratives seem to have agendas. One is

779
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 1: that yeah, we're going to cover for the Roman loss

780
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 1: by putting the blame on Valerian and the enemy, And

781
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:11,160
Speaker 1: then for Christian historians, some in like the essentially the

782
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 1: immediate aftermath of all of this, this is a situation

783
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:21,400
Speaker 1: where God is punishing Valerian. Valerian was hostile towards Christians

784
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:24,840
Speaker 1: and the Roman Empire, you know, he was, he persecuted Christians.

785
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:28,759
Speaker 1: And so the idea here is that God himself is

786
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:30,920
Speaker 1: punishing Valerian for what he has.

787
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 2: Done, a trope that remains popular up until today. There

788
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 2: is always the temptation within a within a you know,

789
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 2: a belief in a system of divine justice, to say

790
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 2: that when my enemy has suffered a bad fate, it's

791
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 2: because of the bad things they did. There they're finally

792
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 2: getting their comeuppance.

793
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 1: Right, right, And again that can be not only foreign enemies,

794
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:54,360
Speaker 1: but they can be domestic enemies. They can be you know,

795
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:57,399
Speaker 1: rival or previous emperors. When you say, well, they weren't

796
00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:00,080
Speaker 1: right with God. So this is what happens when to

797
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:02,239
Speaker 1: get an emperor in there who is right with God.

798
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:05,759
Speaker 1: And of course any of these kings, especially in this age,

799
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:08,719
Speaker 1: there's going to be some degree of religious tinkering of

800
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 1: their stories. Like I'm king because I'm right with God.

801
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:15,880
Speaker 1: I mean, I've got divine blood inside my body. I

802
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:18,880
Speaker 1: harken back to divine kings, et cetera. So there's a

803
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:20,239
Speaker 1: lot of this going around.

804
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 2: Well, looking at the time, I think we're going to

805
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:24,160
Speaker 2: have to call this episode right here and say this

806
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 2: is part one of this talk. But we will get

807
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 2: into some surprising territory next time, not only about history

808
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 2: and historiography, about the idea of the dethroned prisoner Emperor

809
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 2: of Rome, but also into some surprising microbiology territory.

810
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was really surprised this came up as well,

811
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 1: but I look forward to talking about this in the

812
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 1: next episode. But for now, yes, this is a good

813
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:50,440
Speaker 1: stopping point, kind of a cliffhanger because at this point

814
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 1: the Roman Army has been defeated and Emperor Valerian is

815
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:59,440
Speaker 1: a captive of the Sasanian Empire. What's going to happen next, Well,

816
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:02,880
Speaker 1: there's a lot of discussion about what happens next. All right,

817
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:05,240
Speaker 1: So come join us again on Thursday as we continue

818
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:10,359
Speaker 1: this historic and ultimately scientific investigation. In the meantime, if

819
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 1: you want to check out other episodes of Stuff to

820
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind, you'll find them in the Stuff to

821
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:17,480
Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind podcast feed. Our core science and culture

822
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:20,400
Speaker 1: episodes published on Tuesdays and Thursdays, but on Wednesday we

823
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 1: do a short form artifact or monster fact. On Mondays

824
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:26,320
Speaker 1: we do listener mail, and on Fridays we set aside

825
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 1: most serious concerns to just talk about a weird film.

826
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:32,680
Speaker 2: Huge thanks, as always to our excellent audio producer Seth

827
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:35,279
Speaker 2: Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get in touch

828
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:37,640
Speaker 2: with us with feedback on this episode or any other,

829
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:40,359
Speaker 2: to suggest topic for the future, or just to say hello,

830
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 2: you can email us at contact that Stuff to Blow

831
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:51,240
Speaker 2: your Mind dot com.

832
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:54,719
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833
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:57,600
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834
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:14,680
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