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Speaker 1: joining me now. Is the author of a new book.

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Speaker 1: It's called Everybody Loses. It's by Danny Funt, and it's

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Speaker 1: a book about gambling and sort of this new era,

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Speaker 1: right this is not even ten years old, this sort

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Speaker 1: of not quite national legalization of sports gambling now. The

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Speaker 1: book itself is not necessarily an anti gambling screed, and

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Speaker 1: it's not a nostalgia soak defense of some pure past,

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Speaker 1: but it is an investigation into a policy decision that

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Speaker 1: has had massive unintended consequences, this rapid legalization and commercialization

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Speaker 1: of sports betting. And you could say the core argument

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Speaker 1: of the book is this America didn't just legalize sports betting,

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Speaker 1: It industrialized it, financialized it, and embedded it into the

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Speaker 1: media ecosystem with almost no guardrails. The result has been

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Speaker 1: the following. It's an industry where states chase tax revenue,

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Speaker 1: leagues chase engagement, media companies chase ad dollars, sports books

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Speaker 1: chase recreational losers, and consumers are to lose slowly, constantly,

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Speaker 1: and invisibly, hence the title Everybody loses well. The author

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Speaker 1: joins me, Now, Danny, welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: So let's establish a few things here. You do it

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Speaker 1: yourself in the book. You're a sports fan, you gamble.

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Speaker 1: I'm everybody that listens to my podcast knows I'm a

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Speaker 1: sports fan. I gamble, I do picks for Tony Kornheiser.

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Speaker 1: I've always dabbled in mostly football, in sports gambling, and

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Speaker 1: yet there is it all feels like it's been too much,

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Speaker 1: too fast, and all of a sudden, now we're adding

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Speaker 1: everything else to this prediction. Markets and politics and culture,

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Speaker 1: and there seems to be very little interest in public

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Speaker 1: policy makers of figuring out, huh should we have erected

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Speaker 1: some guardrails? So tell me your motivation for doing this book.

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Speaker 3: You know, I've been covering it for several years, mainly

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Speaker 3: for the Washington Post, and I felt like I was

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Speaker 3: scratching the surface. I felt like two big things were

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Speaker 3: not answered to my satisfaction. One was why did the

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Speaker 3: leagues and so many politicians have this profound change of heart?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 3: They gave certain surface level explanations. I didn't find that

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Speaker 3: totally satisfying. I felt like there had to be more

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Speaker 3: to the story that hadn't been.

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Speaker 1: Put it pit in this the harshest penalties before the

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Speaker 1: era of steroids, that professional leagues ever leveled was over gambling.

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Speaker 1: Whether it's shoeless Joe Jackson in baseball, Paul Horning in football,

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Speaker 1: rumors of Mickey Mantle back in the day, Pete Rose,

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Speaker 1: the Michael Jordan rumors that always circulated, it has always

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Speaker 1: been this. The leagues were aggressively anti gambling, to the

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Speaker 1: point where that works would get notes from leagues if

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Speaker 1: they mentioned the points spread too much during some things

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Speaker 1: which created the al Michaels speak right where he always

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Speaker 1: you know, was al Michaels used to do it before

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Speaker 1: anybody else do it. Now it sounds silly when he

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Speaker 1: does it. Some people may care about this last stile.

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Speaker 1: Oh shut up, we're all everybody knows it that. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: I just wanted to remind people that there was a

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Speaker 1: time the leagues and this is important because this is

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Speaker 1: what I think, really, I think exposes this vulnerability. Is

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Speaker 1: the is the whiplash the leagues have created on this.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, continue, absolutely, It's not distant history.

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Speaker 3: You know, not only has players or coaches betting been

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Speaker 3: the cardinal sin in sports, but even beyond that, just

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Speaker 3: the influence that gambling, if it were expanded outside Nevada

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Speaker 3: would have, was referred to as an evil like barely

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Speaker 3: a decade ago by commissioners of sports. I remember the

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Speaker 3: commissioner of Major League Baseball at the hearings in nineteen

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Speaker 3: ninety two when Congress was considering this federal ban on

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Speaker 3: book making, was asked if the leagues would ever do

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Speaker 3: business with gambling operators, and he said that would make

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Speaker 3: a mockery of my office. And now, Vincent, yes, indeed, yeah,

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Speaker 3: He's spoke with me shortly before his passing that you know, so,

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Speaker 3: what did it cease being an evil? Did you learn better?

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Speaker 3: Did the calculus change? I didn't feel like they had

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Speaker 3: been forthcoming about that, and I wanted to understand their thinking.

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Speaker 3: The other thing that motivated the book was these companies

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Speaker 3: are now the sports books themselves are now household names, obviously,

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Speaker 3: but they don't give a lot of interviews. They're very

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Speaker 3: secretive in all sorts of ways, and I really wanted

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Speaker 3: to spend the time to cultivate sources within those companies

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Speaker 3: to understand how they think about customers and how they

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Speaker 3: think about their business and if they have any misgivings

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Speaker 3: about how things are going. And that I felt was

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Speaker 3: something I was very glad to succeed with. Was talking

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Speaker 3: to dozens and dozens of people who work in the business.

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Speaker 1: So it is you know you the Supreme Court finding

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Speaker 1: this has been something that the states of Delaware and

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Speaker 1: New Jersey were always the most aggressive on this. They

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Speaker 1: had filed suit forever they wanted sports books, and the

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Speaker 1: Nevada exception was always very hard to rationalize and in fairness,

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Speaker 1: from a pure legal argument, I always thought New Jersey

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Speaker 1: and Delaware had very strong cases because the Nevada exception

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Speaker 1: was very hard to explain.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm definitely not like a Tenth Amendment scholar and

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Speaker 3: could I don't know if there are comparable states that

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Speaker 3: are exempted from federal law.

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Speaker 2: I do think it was.

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Speaker 3: Noteworthy that when the Supreme Court ruled in twenty eighteen

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Speaker 3: in favor of New Jersey that they said it wasn't

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Speaker 3: that Congress lacks the authority to regulate book making. And

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Speaker 3: I don't even think they specifically said this exempting aspect

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Speaker 3: of that law was invalid. It was just PASPO was structured.

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Speaker 3: The ninety two law was structured in a very odd

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Speaker 3: way where they said the states that have ban book

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Speaker 3: making can't rethink that they can't. You know that those

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Speaker 3: those laws are locked in place as of ninety two.

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Speaker 3: But they opened the door for Congress to immediately pass

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Speaker 3: a bill that would correct the constitutional errors of that law.

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Speaker 3: And as so often happens, there wasn't the political will

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Speaker 3: to do that in states seize that opening, right.

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Speaker 1: This gets that you know, I'm not going to go

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Speaker 1: off in this tangent with you, but I when everybody

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Speaker 1: expresses frustration with you know, why does this happen? This happened,

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Speaker 1: this happened. It always comes back to Congress. You know,

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Speaker 1: why are the courts so politicized? Because Congress won't do

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Speaker 1: its job and people feel like the only place they

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Speaker 1: can get relief is the courts, and so the courts

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Speaker 1: have been forced into becoming legislators. And in this case,

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Speaker 1: they essentially wrote legislation that allowed for the structure of

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Speaker 1: legalization of sports gambling in all fifty states.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I would suspect that had that decision come

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Speaker 3: down in nineteen ninety three, Congress would have immediately passed

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Speaker 3: an updated law. But you know, the leagues were the

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Speaker 3: ones that lobbied Congress to put the ban in place

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Speaker 3: in the first place.

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Speaker 2: And although they were.

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Speaker 3: They were the plaintiffs, I guess in the Murphy and

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Speaker 3: CAA case, the twenty eighteen case that the Supreme Court

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Speaker 3: ruled on, there was not nearly the same motive to

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Speaker 3: correct the court's decision and lobby Congress. In fact, the

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Speaker 3: leagues were so aggressive in lobbying states to legalize book

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Speaker 3: making as quickly as possible.

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Speaker 1: You know, my friend Tony Corneizer has a saying they

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Speaker 1: answer all your questions is money. And I can't help

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Speaker 1: but wonder if the simple motivation of the leagues here

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Speaker 1: is if we want our media rights to continue to

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Speaker 1: exponentially grow, if it's so therefore growing the perceived value

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Speaker 1: of these franchises, we have to continue to find new

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Speaker 1: money into this space. And and it turned out right

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Speaker 1: there was sort of an exhaustion of only so many

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Speaker 1: car commercials you could sell, only so many other industries

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Speaker 1: wanted to advertise, and here was this. You know, they

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Speaker 1: knew this was happening anyway, and they just there was

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Speaker 1: just too much money to be gobbled up into. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it feels like this is the only motivation that basically

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Speaker 1: you may have morals and ethics, but clearly there's a

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Speaker 1: price tag on.

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Speaker 3: Them, no doubt. And obviously the leagues didn't suddenly get

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Speaker 3: profit motivated in twenty eighteen. So I think what you

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Speaker 3: said is exactly right. Media rights was what swung them.

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Speaker 3: I really wanted to understand the convictions of the commissioners

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Speaker 3: who had been saying things like this is an evil

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Speaker 3: to think was that just dramatic language because they had

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Speaker 3: other things motivating them. I do think David Stern, the

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Speaker 3: former NBA commissioner really did detest gambling. I think Fae

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Speaker 3: Vincent also had sincere misgivings about what it would do

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Speaker 3: to sports. But what I learned was as the leagues

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Speaker 3: were in federal court fighting New Jersey on this, they

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Speaker 3: were meetings secretively with representatives of the gambling industry. I

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Speaker 3: say secretively, so much so that the NFL and Disney,

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Speaker 3: because they also met with broadcasting partners, insisted that the

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Speaker 3: meetings take place at Park Avenue cafes, not at their

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Speaker 3: league offices because they just didn't want to welcome gambling

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Speaker 3: reps through their doors. But in those meetings, the main

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Speaker 3: point of conversation was your TV audience is aging. People

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Speaker 3: are cutting the court on cable subscriptions. What can you

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Speaker 3: do to ensure that people are hooked on sports even

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Speaker 3: more than they had ever been? And they commissioned more

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Speaker 3: than a million dollars of studies from Nielsen that found

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Speaker 3: gamblers watch more than twice as many games as traditional fans.

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Speaker 3: They're also watching blowouts because they want to see if

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Speaker 3: a bet wins or loses, even if the game has

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Speaker 3: been decided and normal people have changed the channel. And

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Speaker 3: they also studied the direct and indirect revenue projections for

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Speaker 3: the league. So if you added the sponsorships that the

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Speaker 3: leagues would get from advertising, but more importantly, the indirect

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Speaker 3: revenue from having such a hyper engaged audience of gamblers.

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Speaker 3: The NFL, for example, was shown findings that they would

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Speaker 3: make more than two billion dollars every year if gambling

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Speaker 3: were legalized across the country, and because TV rights are

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Speaker 3: their biggest money maker, that was just too good to

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Speaker 3: pass up.

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Speaker 1: I guess what was done with this? You know, I

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Speaker 1: was trying to There's been a parallel track of developments

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Speaker 1: over the last thirty years in our public policy, and

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Speaker 1: that is we are running out of ways to tax people,

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Speaker 1: right as you've had a you know, the the basically,

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Speaker 1: it is just very hard to raise just ordinary taxes, right,

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Speaker 1: whether you want to raise a property tax and income tax,

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Speaker 1: the political it is very hard. And so what have

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Speaker 1: lawmakers figured out? Vice taxes? Right? It started with the

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Speaker 1: cigarettes and liquor, right, and you'd have these normal and

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Speaker 1: you know, you'd throw in some tourism and they you know,

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Speaker 1: all of these entities, and then marijuana, right, and then

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Speaker 1: sports gambling and all this stuff. But I want to

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Speaker 1: single out marijuana here for a minute, because I might

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Speaker 1: argue that marijuana, the rollout of marijuana legalization and the

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Speaker 1: rollout of sports gambling, right, Essentially, what we did is

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Speaker 1: we didn't legalize every drug. We legalized one drug, a

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Speaker 1: specific drug. With sports gambling, we went from nothing to everything.

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Speaker 1: There was no piece meal. If anything, all we've peacemealed

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Speaker 1: is state by state. But the minute you get in there,

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Speaker 1: we immediately went and from this to betting on every

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Speaker 1: pitch in baseball or you know, creating all these you know,

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Speaker 1: extra derivative bets all over the place, adding every sport

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Speaker 1: across the planet right in high it when you compare

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Speaker 1: to marijuana, it's it's it like we're looking responsible when

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Speaker 1: it comes to marijuana, well, looking completely irresponsible on sports

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Speaker 1: dam and.

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Speaker 3: Not just that chuck, but it's like it's as if

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Speaker 3: you legalize a drug that's the legal industries is ten

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Speaker 3: times more potent than what you were getting on the street,

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Speaker 3: because there are ways of betting legally that are so

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Speaker 3: so much vaster, it's so much easier. You can bet

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Speaker 3: on so many more things than you ever could have

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Speaker 3: through a street booky or even in Las Vegas.

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Speaker 1: There are most street bookies did only a couple of sports,

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Speaker 1: and they were like, right, and you're not going to

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Speaker 1: probably get player props.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that same game. Parlays are essentially an invention of

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Speaker 3: online bookmakers. These micro bets where you're betting on a

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Speaker 3: play by play or possession by possession basis. That's entirely new,

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Speaker 3: something you could only do if you're betting instantaneously from

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Speaker 3: your phone. So yeah, I'm right there with you. It's

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Speaker 3: like you might have thought there'd be baby steps or

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Speaker 3: such tight guardrails at first, and then you'd ease things up.

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Speaker 3: It was basically, you know, off to the races immediately.

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Speaker 1: And this is where you know where you know, I

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Speaker 1: go back to If you're really frustrated by this, you

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Speaker 1: have one entity to blame, Congress. They had no interest

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Speaker 1: and you know in some ways, Look, there was a

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Speaker 1: story earlier this week. We're taping on February third, Tuesday. Second,

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Speaker 1: you know, right before the Super Bowl. This is going

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Speaker 1: to air before the Super Bowl. But I wanted a

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Speaker 1: timestamp it because I believe yesterday there was a story

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Speaker 1: on Monday of how Draftking and Fan Duel are suddenly

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Speaker 1: throwing a bunch of money into federal political coffers because

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Speaker 1: they're basically trying to prevent federal intervention in this at

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Speaker 1: what they've pulled off, which is state by state, would

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Speaker 1: you do this? When you can get to pick off

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Speaker 1: regulation state by state, you really get to manipulate the process.

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Speaker 1: Like I was reading, apparently West Virginia allows all sorts

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Speaker 1: of experimentation on their mobile gambling, so that governor gets

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Speaker 1: more money from those two entities than other governors, and

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Speaker 1: they want to keep that sort of ability to use

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Speaker 1: West Virginia as a peatrie dish to decide, hey, does

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Speaker 1: this work well? This new way of offering a bet work,

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Speaker 1: et cetera. It does seem as if that Congress is

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Speaker 1: in an uninterest or inability to get involved at the

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Speaker 1: beginning has made it probably impossible to now erect guardrails

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Speaker 1: after the.

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Speaker 3: Fact, no doubt, after the Supreme Court decision, there was

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Speaker 3: a bill proposed by Chuck Schumer and a retiring Utah

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Speaker 3: senator who I'm blanking on, and it was sort of

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Speaker 3: like just a symbolic, you know, let's plan a flag

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Speaker 3: of oh, we try to do something that got nowhere

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Speaker 3: since then. Richard Blumenthal, the Democrat from Connecticut and Paul Tonko,

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Speaker 3: a Congressman from New York, also a Democrat, have proposed

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Speaker 3: a very aggressive set of reforms called the Safe Bet

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Speaker 3: Act that obviously the industry detests, but even much much

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Speaker 3: more modest proposals are resisted so aggressively by the industry

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Speaker 3: and industry friendly members of Congress. Like there's always been

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Speaker 3: a federal excise tax on betting. So for every one

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Speaker 3: hundred dollars bet Congress or the federal government takes twenty

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Speaker 3: five cents, which adds up to a lot, you know,

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Speaker 3: if you're betting one hundred and fifty billion dollars a year.

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Speaker 3: A few years ago a few members Tonco and Andrea Salinas,

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Speaker 3: a Democrat from Oregon, proposed diverting. I think half of

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Speaker 3: the money that raised toward research, treatment, and prevention for

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Speaker 3: gambling problems. But research is so conspicuous neglected. You know,

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Speaker 3: we don't really have a firm grasp of just how

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Speaker 3: many people are betting, let alone how many people have problems.

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Speaker 3: And you'd think using an excise tax to study the

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Speaker 3: breath of the of the sin that you're taxing would

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Speaker 3: be common sense. It was resistance, you know, the fight

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Speaker 3: against that was so aggressive, so severe, and I mean

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Speaker 3: that just goes to show how correctional.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like, how did they make their case to not

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Speaker 1: do this, to not divert this money to studying this? Right,

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Speaker 1: It's it's almost as rabbit as the gun manufacturers petrified

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Speaker 1: of the CDC studying gunshot wounds as an epidemic issue.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: The only thing I heard from people like Congresswoman Dina

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Speaker 3: Titus of Nevada, who's, you know, a very industry friendly member.

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Speaker 1: She's a yeah, say no more right, Nevada. Okay, I mean,

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Speaker 1: like accept the premise that's your industry, right.

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Speaker 3: All I remember her saying was this is already covered

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Speaker 3: by states, that it would be redundant for Congress to

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Speaker 3: fund it, which is just not true. State funding is

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Speaker 3: so pitiful by the bare minimum that people advocate for

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Speaker 3: on treatment, and you'd think, you know, a lot of

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Speaker 3: gamblers who need help, need some safety net to get

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Speaker 3: that because they're out of money. And also, yeah, or

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Speaker 3: just understanding how much gambling is going on, states are

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Speaker 3: not remotely funding that adequately.

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Speaker 1: When it comes to these sort of bet creations, right

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Speaker 1: and I think that this is you know, I guess

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Speaker 1: I look at it was the original sin allowing mobile gambling,

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Speaker 1: because how did we go from allowing states to allow

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Speaker 1: to be able to do sports books to mobile gambling? Like?

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Speaker 1: Why was that not a larger debate or conversation. It

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Speaker 1: just sort of this happened. And then this just these

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Speaker 1: wonderful apps. And I say it, they're very good. They're

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Speaker 1: really you know, there's some of they're very user friendly.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they're as good as any apps you're going

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Speaker 1: to use. In fact, they're too good. At some point,

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Speaker 1: How did that? Why was that immediately legal too?

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Speaker 3: It's so much more profitable For one, I did think

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Speaker 3: it was a funny footnote on this story that New Jersey,

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Speaker 3: you know, when they were petitioning the Supreme Court, they said,

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Speaker 3: this is strictly for land based casinos and race tracks,

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Speaker 3: and then as soon as the decision came down, they

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Speaker 3: updated the law to legalize online betting across the states.

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Speaker 2: So it just makes so much more money.

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Speaker 3: It's so much easier, obviously, and the fact that lawmakers

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Speaker 3: didn't put two and two together seems bizarre, and yet

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Speaker 3: some of them have copped to that. The person who

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Speaker 3: stands out in my mind as Charlie Baker, one of

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Speaker 3: his last axis governor of Massachusetts, was legalizing book making.

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Speaker 3: Months later he became president of the NCAA, and he said,

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Speaker 3: as soon as he started talking to students and college

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Speaker 3: athletes and realizing how out of control online betting was,

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Speaker 3: it dawned on him that if you have to go

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Speaker 3: to Las Vegas or track down a bookie or use

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Speaker 3: some sketchy offshore website, people are not going to be betting

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Speaker 3: at the rates they are now, and the problems would

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Speaker 3: be a lot more contained. There are some states that

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Speaker 3: restrict it to in person, including sometimes in person only

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Speaker 3: on tribal land, just to simulate tribal economies, but ninety

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Speaker 3: percent of this business is now online.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, no, I mean, I look at my own habit, okay,

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Speaker 1: I enjoy it. I now I've got my own ethics, right.

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Speaker 1: I won't bet on any individual props or any individual

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Speaker 1: games of sport, meaning tennis or any player where you're

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Speaker 1: relying on a single individual. You know, I think tennis

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Speaker 1: is you know, that's just more corruptible. And I just

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Speaker 1: don't think it's a I think airs. I look at

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Speaker 1: it as hey, I think I think there's hidden odds

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Speaker 1: against me on this. I just don't think it's as

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Speaker 1: safe as a bet is vote betting on a team sport.

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Speaker 1: And so I have my own lines in the sand.

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Speaker 1: But I think about my own habit. If I had

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Speaker 1: to go down the street to a storefront to place

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Speaker 1: my bets rather than just doing it on my couch,

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Speaker 1: i'd probably bet. I'd probably cut back on my gambling

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Speaker 1: by eighty percent. And they know that, right, And yet

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Speaker 1: it's likely the social It is probably the societal change

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Speaker 1: we should be making.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And you know, those sorts of friction points do

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Speaker 3: make a difference. One thing that's debated now is to

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Speaker 3: bet online, you have to enable geolocations. They can pinpoint

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Speaker 3: very precisely exactly where you are. You could they geofence

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Speaker 3: like federal buildings, so you can't bet in Washington.

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Speaker 1: If you're fascinating in DC, where where you because I've

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Speaker 1: done this, you know where where it allows it. And

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Speaker 1: then you're like, why am I not allowed here? I'm

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Speaker 1: like in the middle of the district. But if you're

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Speaker 1: really close to a federal building, right, or if you're

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Speaker 1: too close to Capitol Hill, there's an extra geofence.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: So there's some talk now of well, we could geofense

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Speaker 3: college campuses, or even more modestly, geofense freshman dorms or classrooms.

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Speaker 3: And people say, well, people, well, across the street or

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Speaker 3: you know whatever. It's like, sure, but it would it

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Speaker 3: would be a deterrent or just on principle it might

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Speaker 3: make sense.

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Speaker 2: Things like that.

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Speaker 3: Friction points are such a buzzword because the industry has

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Speaker 3: been very effective at making it as frictionless as possible.

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Speaker 3: That especially seems like the apt way of describing this

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Speaker 3: micro betting where you're you know, betting play by play,

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Speaker 3: and I you know, a psychologist of the University of

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Speaker 3: New Mexico who study this said, just like, we don't

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Speaker 3: sell you know, two hundred proof ethanol to get you

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Speaker 3: drunk faster, Like maybe you would want to put some

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Speaker 3: friction points in place so that people pump the brakes

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Speaker 3: a little bit or are given the chance to take

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Speaker 3: a breath and say, am you know, am I am

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Speaker 3: I getting out of control here?

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Speaker 1: So who is doing research? What were you able to

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Speaker 1: uncover and how what is it being research that should.

433
00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:00,360
Speaker 3: Be I've seen some compelling studies over the past couple

434
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 3: of years that are able to isolate states that have

435
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 3: legalized sports betting and those that haven't and see what

436
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 3: the consequences are. And there is a demonstrable impact where

437
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 3: it's legal. Bankruptcies are going up, credit scores are going down,

438
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,119
Speaker 3: personal savings are going down. There was even a study

439
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,399
Speaker 3: I wish I could remember the university to credit. But

440
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:26,160
Speaker 3: incidents of domestic violence when the home football team loses

441
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,720
Speaker 3: are higher in states with legal sports betting than those

442
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 3: that aren't. And by the way, like rage induced by

443
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,199
Speaker 3: gambling and the violence that that can motivate is so

444
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 3: scary and goes well beyond domestic violence.

445
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 1: Well, this is becoming a thing with right. The NCAA

446
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 1: even did public service announcement to television adds saying, hey,

447
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,640
Speaker 1: you know, leave the players, you know, leave the players alone.

448
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 3: It's a disaster waiting to happen. I get into that

449
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 3: in my book, and there are people I spoke one person,

450
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 3: the chief security former chief security officer of the NFL,

451
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 3: said it's only a matter of time, as he put it,

452
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:04,720
Speaker 3: before someone tries to kill an athlete because they cost

453
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 3: them a bed. I think that would make some lawmakers

454
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 3: take action.

455
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 1: Danny, I can tell you this. Look, I'm a huge

456
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 1: University of Miami fan. Arguably the only reason Miami lost

457
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 1: was due to a block punt, and on that play

458
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 1: there was a missed block. Okay, guy just seemed a

459
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 1: whiff mm hmkay. The most bet on prop, one of

460
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 1: the more bet on props was a block punt that

461
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 1: it was going to happen, And so immediately social media

462
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,639
Speaker 1: goes into this conspiratorial mindset. You know, I feel terrible

463
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:41,160
Speaker 1: for this kid. Look, everybody has brain fart. It happens.

464
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:45,399
Speaker 1: But now, because of all this gambling in there, I

465
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 1: understand why many will jump to that conclusion, right, because

466
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 1: has this happened. Yes, We've just had baseball players get

467
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 1: indicted for this, Basketball players get in guided for this.

468
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 1: So it's not as if it's a crazy thing to assume.

469
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 1: But wow, does that you know, look at what that

470
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 1: guy's social media feed, what happened to it? And it's

471
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 1: this is this is an uncomfortable development because it is

472
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:25,400
Speaker 1: inevitably going to lead to where somebody loses their loses

473
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 1: their marbles over.

474
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,440
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean there've already been people arrested for

475
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 3: threatening to kill people in the most gruesome ways. So yeah,

476
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 3: sadly that doesn't seem alarmist. The cynicism also that you

477
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 3: were describing, This kind of conspiratorial thinking is so mainstream now.

478
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 3: Sometimes just as a game, I'll search the words rigged

479
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 3: on X when I'm watching. It's this one post after another,

480
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 3: this is rigged. Here's proof it's rigged.

481
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 2: You know.

482
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 1: Sure the script. They're following a script, right, the old script.

483
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 1: I see them, my son. It's so prevalent in the

484
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 1: conversation that my son will say, well, that's against the script,

485
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 1: and I'm just like, you know, it's just like he's like,

486
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,239
Speaker 1: the language is so coded now that everybody speaks it

487
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 1: this way now.

488
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 3: Right, And this is why this is such a bigger

489
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 3: problem than just how it affects gamblers, because so many

490
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 3: fans in general are adopting that kind of cynicism. After

491
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 3: a couple of players on the Cleveland Guardians were arrested

492
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 3: last year for fixing specific pitches that they intentionally threw

493
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 3: his balls allegedly and were able to bet tens of

494
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 3: thousands of dollars on that.

495
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 1: Which, by the way, I've thought about this incident a lot. Right,

496
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 1: you're am Manuel Classe. This is the guy that's been

497
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: alleged to uses. You make a ton of money. You

498
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 1: may have a lot of buddies, friends, family relatives, maybe

499
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 1: have had their hand out. You can't help them all out,

500
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 1: But you rationalize doing this because you're like, look, i'll

501
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 1: get the guy out. I'll throw him a pitch. I'll

502
00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 1: go ahead and give him this. I get to help

503
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 1: out my b buddies or help out my friend. It's

504
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 1: no sweat off. You know, it doesn't cost me a thing. Yeah,

505
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 1: it cost me a pitch, but I'll find my way

506
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 1: out of it, right, you know. And in his own head,

507
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 1: he's like, I'm not you know, I'm not throwing the game, right,

508
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 1: I'm I've got I've got this under control. And I

509
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 1: say this because I'm not trying to rationally justify what

510
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 1: a manual Classe is accused of I'm not doing that

511
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 1: at all. But this is how good people end up

512
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 1: doing bad things with good intentions.

513
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean, I think the argument that today's

514
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 3: athletes are uncorruptible is so ridiculous, and there's so many

515
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 3: reasons why.

516
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 1: No, they're comfortable in the way I just described. And yeah,

517
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: and they're not, in their mind not being corrupt. They're

518
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 1: just throwing a bone to a buddy so that they

519
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 1: don't have to write a check themselves.

520
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 3: It's even important to remember that fixing doesn't necessarily mean failing, right, Like,

521
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 3: you could say you could bet on will the next

522
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 3: pitch be off speed? So you could just say, hey,

523
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 3: I'm going to throw a breaking to lead off this batter.

524
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 3: Bet on that you're not doing. You know, you're not

525
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 3: trying to lose. You're just giving them an inside edge.

526
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 3: You could bet on who will the first player be

527
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 3: to catch a pass in the Super Bowl. So if

528
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 3: the quarterback said I'm gonna throw it to my tight end,

529
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,959
Speaker 3: you know, that's fixing, but it's not. It's not intentionally losing.

530
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,959
Speaker 3: So that temptation is just so much more. You know,

531
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 3: you could easily imagine someone going down that hole.

532
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 1: Well, is there any good guys in the sports industry

533
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 1: on this.

534
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 2: Good guys is a tough way of putting it.

535
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 3: I would say there are definitely people who are alarmed

536
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 3: of what's happening and speaking up about it. Tony Clark,

537
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 3: the former baseball player is now head of the players Union,

538
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 3: spoke to me saying the players Association was not consulted

539
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 3: as legalization took off. He's worried about all the threats

540
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 3: that players are facing, the temptation for them to gamble.

541
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 3: Thinks something must be done. You've seen athletes recently. Tyrese

542
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 3: Haliburton in the NBA said, you know, I feel like

543
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 3: a prop out there. I don't like what's happening. Michael

544
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 3: Porter Junior, whose brother Johntay was banned for life for

545
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 3: including with gamblers to fix his prop bets, gave a

546
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 3: very candid interview this past offseason, saying things are out

547
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 3: of control and just the mess that this has made.

548
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 3: I can't believe the league embraced this. You're hearing more

549
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 3: of that and yet a lot of I get the

550
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 3: sense that a lot of people in sports are walking

551
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 3: on eggshells when they talk about gambling. Maybe their friends

552
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 3: are doing ads maybe they might want to work in

553
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 3: media and realize they're.

554
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: Too much money involved.

555
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 2: Look, yeah, I mean that simple.

556
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 1: You know, thirty years ago. You know, look, I'll give

557
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 1: you a I think this is a apples to pairs comparison. Okay,

558
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 1: not quite apples and oranges. And that is the decision

559
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 1: by Congress to legalize advertising of prescription drugs. And then

560
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 1: how all of a sudden this became a crutch for

561
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 1: the news industry in particular, and it was sort of

562
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 1: this lifeline, right, and that's and then so what happens

563
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 1: is they get so addicted to that that, you know,

564
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 1: even as you have entities that are concerned that, hey,

565
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 1: these pharmaceutical companies by advertising, you know, it's misleading people

566
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 1: about certain drugs and this and that, and the news

567
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 1: organizations were less credible because they so desperately needed to

568
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 1: add dollars from those prescription drugs. Right, Look, me, just

569
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 1: doing this segment may put sponsorships. You know, I am

570
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 1: not you know I say this. I use a few

571
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 1: of these apps. But you know, the the sudden necessity

572
00:33:55,320 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 1: the sports information world has, right, they so dominant, particularly

573
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 1: podcasting and all this other stuff. You know, if you

574
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 1: took it away. Suddenly you'd have people say, hey, that's

575
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 1: going to be my livelihood. There's no advertising, this is

576
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:15,439
Speaker 1: going to leave this huge hole in vacuum. And it's

577
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,320
Speaker 1: just like, yeah, I mean, it's like it's like getting yourself.

578
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 1: It's like going to the mob for security. Be careful

579
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 1: who you get into bed with. You suddenly can't get

580
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 1: out of your deal.

581
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 2: Right.

582
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 3: I'm concerned about being complicit in promoting gambling through those

583
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 3: ad deals. I'm maybe even more concerned about how it

584
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 3: might cause journalists to think twice about covering something that

585
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 3: would embarrass the sports boxer and the leagues for doing

586
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,399
Speaker 3: business with them. And you know, sometimes I can feel

587
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,800
Speaker 3: like a sort of a J school debate, like to add.

588
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 1: I won't even debate. Look, I'll tell you Look, this

589
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 1: happened to me with the NFL. I was doing a

590
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,719
Speaker 1: story during the Super Bowl I Meet the Press, featuring

591
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 1: a player who was soon in the league over the

592
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 1: concussion issue. This is CTE. This goes back about to anyone,

593
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 1: And I was going to do the episode of Meet

594
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 1: the Press on the field of the Super Bowl was

595
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 1: an NBC year, and the NFL informed NBC Sports that

596
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 1: you know, no and so I was basically told, we're

597
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 1: not going to tell you what to cover, but if

598
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,359
Speaker 1: you want to do if you want to broadcast from here,

599
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 1: you can't cover that story. I chose to do the story,

600
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:22,399
Speaker 1: So I stayed back in DC, you know, sweat off

601
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 1: my back was like, was there a small personal discipline

602
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:27,359
Speaker 1: how I missed out on going to a Super Bowl?

603
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: But that's how the league's strong arm, right, And so

604
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 1: they did. They were doing that on concussions. Imagine what

605
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 1: they're going to do on anybody of their media partners

606
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 1: that questions their relationships with these sports books.

607
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:42,280
Speaker 2: No question.

608
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 3: Someone at ESPN said the rule, like the unspoken rule

609
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 3: in the newsroom for so long, was you can sort

610
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 3: of reference gambling, but don't do anything that'll f up

611
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 3: our deals with the leagues, which meant, don't push gambling

612
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 3: too much because the.

613
00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 1: Leg didn't like now it's going to be.

614
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,440
Speaker 3: Now the other right, don't say anything bad about gambling.

615
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 3: Is that'll f up our deals with the leagues. Another

616
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,840
Speaker 3: former ESPN reporter said, it's as if sports media is

617
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 3: being bribed by all this ad advertising that they're not

618
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 3: covering things they might they're biting their tongues pulling punches,

619
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 3: you know, choose your metaphor. I think that's very real.

620
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 3: That's not just a hypothetical danger here.

621
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:26,319
Speaker 1: So let's talk about the sadly, the societal triggers that

622
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:30,800
Speaker 1: might sober up policy makers and sober up the leagues.

623
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 1: It sounds like number one is a player gets attacked

624
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 1: by an angry gambler is probably the is probably one

625
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:43,959
Speaker 1: of those triggers. Yep.

626
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 3: I think there's three. They're all pretty disturbing to think about.

627
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,799
Speaker 3: One is that. The other is a rash of suicides

628
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,839
Speaker 3: among gambling addicts, which has happened in Europe and been

629
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 3: a big motivator for reregulating that industry, saying, the industry

630
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 3: can't self police, this is out of control. We must

631
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 3: tighten the card rails. And the third would be a

632
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 3: major match fixing scandal. You know, even beyond what we've

633
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:11,280
Speaker 3: seen now where people say this is destroying sports, we

634
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:13,239
Speaker 3: were not going to allow that, even if it's making

635
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 3: peop all.

636
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:16,720
Speaker 1: The money fixing, all the fixes that have been exposed

637
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:21,240
Speaker 1: of are always sort of lesser, you know. It's frankly,

638
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 1: where there's less money at stake, right, or less fewer

639
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 1: gamblers in that take the recent indictment, it was almost

640
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 1: all involving games, not in the Power For or five

641
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:34,360
Speaker 1: conferences in basketball.

642
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was humiliating to me as a Georgetown grad

643
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 3: because there was one fix where de Paul allegedly intentionally

644
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 3: lost the first half. So the indictments in Georgetown was

645
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 3: up double digits and then the fix was over and

646
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 3: DePaul came back and won. So stuff like that things, Well,

647
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 3: that's the.

648
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 1: Story of Georgetown basketball. As my friend Chris Eliza will

649
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 1: tell you, Yeah, no doubt.

650
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 3: But yeah, if it were something on the scale of

651
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 3: a Pete Rose or you know, even it's strange. The

652
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 3: biggest sc gambling scandal of this century was Tim Donaghe

653
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 3: the NBA ref who was convicted of, you know, betting

654
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 3: on more than one hundred games he officiated. It seems

655
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 3: quite clear he was blowing the whistle to look out

656
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:19,880
Speaker 3: for those bets, and people made hundreds of millions of

657
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 3: dollars supposedly off of colluding with him. You'd think the

658
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 3: NBA would never touch gambling after that. But if something

659
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 3: like that were to happen now, I think people would

660
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 3: say this is a direct result of what's happened.

661
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 1: Having good life insurance is incredibly important. I know from

662
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:43,319
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663
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664
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665
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666
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667
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668
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669
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 1: why I was able to go to college. Little did

670
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671
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672
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676
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680
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681
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682
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683
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684
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Speaker 1: March twenty twenty five, Business Insider named Ethos the number

685
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686
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689
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:11,439
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690
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,239
Speaker 1: insurance is something you should really think about it, especially

691
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:20,439
Speaker 1: if you've got a growing family. You know, you get

692
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:23,800
Speaker 1: it something here with officiating, and so then it becomes

693
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,800
Speaker 1: the question is are we going to start regulating sports

694
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:32,800
Speaker 1: simply to make sure the gambling is honest? Right? Because

695
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:36,840
Speaker 1: I've thought about this issue of referees in this respect,

696
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 1: I'm very friendly with some college basketball coaches, and I

697
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:45,359
Speaker 1: was really curious because I've been very you know, there

698
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 1: are no correct me if I'm wrong, but you care.

699
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:51,879
Speaker 1: There are no full time college basketball officials. Nobody whose

700
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 1: full time job is this. They all have another job.

701
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 1: These are these are side hustles. Some of them are

702
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 1: hoping they can. May you get the call to the NBA,

703
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 1: or get the call to the NFL, or get the

704
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,400
Speaker 1: call of Major League Baseball. But in that, particularly in

705
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,239
Speaker 1: these college ranks, right, and that in many cases, this

706
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:17,799
Speaker 1: is a second job. If you're a MAC referee, right

707
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 1: at this point, maybe you're not, you know, you're trying

708
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:24,399
Speaker 1: to get to the SEC, or you're trying to get

709
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 1: to the Big ten, or you know, and at some

710
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 1: point you know, maybe you know you're It just feels

711
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 1: like the corruptibility of underpaid refs in lesser known conferences

712
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:45,319
Speaker 1: that are equally available to gamble on by the same

713
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 1: people are a huge vulnerability. And yet so there's a

714
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:52,479
Speaker 1: part of me that says, hey, we should worry about

715
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 1: professionalizing the referee ranks. And then I look at it

716
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 1: the other way. It's like, wait a minute, are we

717
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 1: going to try to sort of police the sport just

718
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 1: to make sure the gambling is on the up and up.

719
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 3: I do think that's a reason why there's such a

720
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 3: push to automate so much of officiating, you know, automatic

721
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 3: ball and stripe calling, using technology to spot the football

722
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,799
Speaker 3: in a football game, all sorts of stuff like that. Yeah,

723
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 3: the technology is very appealing in its own right, but

724
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 3: a big argument for it is it removes the corruptibility

725
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:24,800
Speaker 3: risk of officials, I think.

726
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 1: Which is sort of strange, and it like that we're

727
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:30,760
Speaker 1: so worried about the corruptibility, we don't want to actually

728
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:38,920
Speaker 1: limit the potential for corruption. Instead, let's eliminate some jobs.

729
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, there's a lot of evidence of

730
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 3: officials being corrupted quickly. One that I thought was very

731
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 3: funny is there's this issue in tennis of what's called

732
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 3: court siding, where gamblers who are at the matches are

733
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 3: betting before the sportsbook heres that a point went a

734
00:42:55,120 --> 00:43:00,720
Speaker 3: certain way and sometimes oversees. The umpire in a tennis

735
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 3: match would input who won a given point, and they

736
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 3: were paid off by these court siding gamblers to just

737
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:11,719
Speaker 3: be a little slow in tapping the tablet computer and

738
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,440
Speaker 3: saying this point went this way that way, and if

739
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 3: you can get that twenty or thirty second edge, you

740
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 3: know where you're like a step ahead of the sports books.

741
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:21,840
Speaker 3: You can make a lot of money. It's as subtle

742
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 3: as that.

743
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 2: Sometimes.

744
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 1: So you, like I said, you confess that you are

745
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 1: a modest gambler, you enjoy sports. After you did this

746
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 1: whole book, how do you watch sports now?

747
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've honestly, you know, I bet a little bit.

748
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:44,399
Speaker 3: I was in New York when they legalized, and who

749
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 3: could resist, you know, pocketing thousands of bucks just to

750
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 3: sign up for a half dozen sports books. So I

751
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:51,160
Speaker 3: was doing a bit of betting. Then I lived in

752
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:53,799
Speaker 3: Colorado when my wife was in grad school and I

753
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:56,239
Speaker 3: was alone a lot, So definitely betting a little bit

754
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 3: back then. Over the past year, I got to say

755
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:02,719
Speaker 3: I haven't been betting nearly as much, sometimes not at all,

756
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:06,680
Speaker 3: because part of it is just hearing from professional gamblers

757
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 3: and book makers how difficult it is to win. You

758
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:12,319
Speaker 3: know that one percent of people are making money, that

759
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:14,279
Speaker 3: if you do make money, they'll cut down how much

760
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:15,759
Speaker 3: you're gonna wager very aggressively.

761
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,759
Speaker 1: This is a problem, Like, you know, this is a

762
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:21,800
Speaker 1: problem I've run into. I'm I guess I'm a I

763
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:25,359
Speaker 1: didn't think I was that good, But the minute you're

764
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 1: on a run, you suddenly they like limit and you're

765
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 1: just like, well, wait a minute, how is that? How

766
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 1: is that legal?

767
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:38,279
Speaker 2: Yeah? Oh, people say it shouldn't be, but I don't care.

768
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:43,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know, I don't understand. You know, it

769
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 1: should the same, It should be the same amount. If

770
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 1: I win too much or lose too much should be

771
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 1: the same metric. But that's not the metric they use

772
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:54,799
Speaker 1: to determine, right, Yeah.

773
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:56,799
Speaker 3: I mean, and when you lose, when you're losing, the

774
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 3: sky's the limit. Like there's someone who's lost one hundred

775
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:01,319
Speaker 3: million dollars betting on sports online, and.

776
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:03,480
Speaker 1: You have a bunch of free bets. Hey, look you've

777
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 1: got free bets. You got five free you bet. Yeah.

778
00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:10,719
Speaker 3: So between that and also just hearing such upsetting stories,

779
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 3: honestly of the industry taking advantage of people and praying

780
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 3: on people, that turned me off to where I felt

781
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 3: a little hooky about patronizing that business at least for now.

782
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 1: What have you learned about who controls Fandel and who

783
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:24,839
Speaker 1: controls DraftKings.

784
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:29,360
Speaker 3: Fandel, right around the time that legalization took off, was

785
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:32,799
Speaker 3: acquired by an Irish company called Flutter. Fandel was based

786
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 3: in Ireland to begin with, but Flutter is a conglomerate.

787
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 3: You'll see Patty Power betting shops all over England. Patty

788
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:44,760
Speaker 3: Powers under Flutter. It's a huge company. DraftKings is based

789
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:48,960
Speaker 3: in Boston. It's an American company. They're the two giants

790
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 3: and Fandel's leadership has changed a lot since it's founding.

791
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 3: A lot of the people who founded DraftKings are still in,

792
00:45:56,640 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 3: you know, in the c suite.

793
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:01,840
Speaker 1: Are either one of them publicly traded companies.

794
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, DraftKings is in the US and Flutter is in

795
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:06,280
Speaker 3: other markets.

796
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 1: Aren't the leagues have equity stakes?

797
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:16,280
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, early on, which I don't think it's conspiratorial

798
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,719
Speaker 3: to think that gave them an extra motive to course

799
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 3: their business get vastly bigger.

800
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 2: Yeah.

801
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 3: And there's layers to the league's stake in the gambling

802
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:29,279
Speaker 3: business that even goes beyond that. One that I think

803
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 3: is so alarming is that the leagues have a stake

804
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 3: in these companies that are the so called integrity monitors

805
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:40,080
Speaker 3: that are charged with flagging and investigating suspicious bets, bets

806
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 3: that shouldn't be placed. Considering that those companies have partial

807
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 3: owners who you know, are the leagues themselves, that's a

808
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:52,440
Speaker 3: huge conflict of interest. Not only that, but they're bigger

809
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:57,759
Speaker 3: business is an integrity monitoring, it's facilitating online bookmaking by

810
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:02,399
Speaker 3: distributing the data that allows real time betting. So there

811
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:06,839
Speaker 3: is such a disincentive for them to expose something that

812
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 3: would profoundly damage the betting business and the leagues for

813
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 3: being a part of it.

814
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:17,280
Speaker 1: You know, you're really just describing are you describing tobacco

815
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:18,760
Speaker 1: companies in the nineteen fifties?

816
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 3: For a while, I was reluctant to make that comparison,

817
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:25,840
Speaker 3: just because it's so inflammatory and people like really freak

818
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 3: out when you say that. I think the advertising is

819
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 3: the most undeniable comparison. There's actually a group at Northeastern

820
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:39,799
Speaker 3: Law School that were instrumental in exposing industry practices in

821
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:42,799
Speaker 3: the tobacco business, and now they've set their sights on

822
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 3: sports betting, and they made that comparison. I felt it

823
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 3: was pretty convincing that the way celebrities and just beloved

824
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:55,360
Speaker 3: people are pushing this, saying it's harmless, suggesting the kids

825
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:57,440
Speaker 3: that it's just the thing that adults do or that

826
00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 3: people do, that has such echoes of how tobacco used

827
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 3: to be advertised.

828
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:04,680
Speaker 1: So at the end of a lot of the podcasts

829
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:07,359
Speaker 1: I listened to, you'll you'll get the perfunctory if you've

830
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 1: got a gambling problem in New York, call one eight

831
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:13,920
Speaker 1: hundred hope or something, and Washington, DC it's this, and

832
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:15,839
Speaker 1: Virginia's this and they go through and then go all

833
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 1: the numbers. Did you call up any of those numbers?

834
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 1: Did you see how they work? I mean, yeah, that

835
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 1: would have been smart. I did talk to someone who did.

836
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 1: He was starting a telehealth company and he wanted to

837
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:32,960
Speaker 1: investigate what exactly is out there for people. Maybe he

838
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:34,880
Speaker 1: has a little bit of a motivation to say it's

839
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 1: terrible because his company is filling a supposed void. But

840
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:43,880
Speaker 1: he said he'd call helplines and they would direct you

841
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:46,840
Speaker 1: to people who've been out of practice for years, or

842
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:49,359
Speaker 1: they said I'm not a gambling counselor how how did

843
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:52,319
Speaker 1: I ever get on this list? Or there would he

844
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 1: would find that they would direct you to, you know,

845
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 1: two counselors covering a state like Colorado. That's enormous And

846
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:01,960
Speaker 1: if you're on one side of the state, you know,

847
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:04,759
Speaker 1: good luck getting weekly helped from someone on the other side.

848
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:10,839
Speaker 1: It's not at all doing the job. And then how

849
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:14,080
Speaker 1: much did you get into the prediction market aspect of things,

850
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:16,480
Speaker 1: or did you really stick to sports gambling in this book?

851
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:19,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, didn't cover it in the book for a couple

852
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 3: of reasons. One is just timing. It's really taken off recently,

853
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 3: and as you know, books have to be finalized quite

854
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:28,399
Speaker 3: a bit in advance. And the other was I think

855
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:32,439
Speaker 3: they are genuinely in legal limbo and might get invalidated

856
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:34,759
Speaker 3: at least in some parts of the country as far

857
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 3: as taking bets on sports goes. So I didn't want

858
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:40,840
Speaker 3: the book to, you know, have a short shelf life.

859
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 1: Does let me, I mean leave you with this. Europe

860
00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 1: the culture of gambling has always been much greater in

861
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 1: the United Kingdom in general. Right, The fact that FanDuel

862
00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:56,960
Speaker 1: is Irish owned is not shocking to me. We know

863
00:49:57,040 --> 00:49:59,360
Speaker 1: you can bet on you could always bet on an

864
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:03,440
Speaker 1: American pola in London. You know, there's always been a looser.

865
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:06,240
Speaker 1: I mean, London is still one of the strangest casino

866
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 1: gambling experiences I've ever had, where I'm playing black check

867
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:11,279
Speaker 1: and people are betting my hands behind me and all

868
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:15,280
Speaker 1: this stuff. Yeah, it's one of those instances. Does Europe

869
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 1: do anything better than we do to sort of minimize

870
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:22,839
Speaker 1: this risk? Or is it or was it simply because

871
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:25,399
Speaker 1: it was embedded in their culture? They're just a little more.

872
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:28,360
Speaker 1: They've gone through growth. Are we just going through early

873
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:31,920
Speaker 1: growing pains? Is there anything to learn from how Europe's

874
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:34,080
Speaker 1: done this or is having the same problem now that

875
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:35,160
Speaker 1: this has all gone mobile.

876
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:39,080
Speaker 3: Oh, there's absolutely a ton to learn. And I think

877
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:43,399
Speaker 3: one of the most shameful things that happen with legalization here,

878
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:45,239
Speaker 3: and I guess this is not unique to gambling when

879
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 3: it comes to American policy making, was just being totally

880
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:53,480
Speaker 3: oblivious to precedent overseas, as if this is some grand

881
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:57,359
Speaker 3: American experiment and we'll figure things out as we go.

882
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:00,400
Speaker 3: All of the things that we're debating about, you know,

883
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:04,920
Speaker 3: deceptive promotions and excessive advertising and too many ways to

884
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:08,279
Speaker 3: bed on things that are easily corruptible, all of those

885
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:11,560
Speaker 3: have been litigated in you know, public discourse or in

886
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:15,960
Speaker 3: courts in Europe, and there's been this realization that things

887
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:17,799
Speaker 3: were out of hand and they had to crack down.

888
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:21,400
Speaker 3: And now many of those same companies that were punished

889
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:25,760
Speaker 3: overseas for bad practices are doing the exact same things

890
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:30,160
Speaker 3: in the US. It's kind of galling, But yeah, as

891
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:32,400
Speaker 3: far as you know, are they smarter than us. No,

892
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:35,920
Speaker 3: They've just had more time to come to terms with

893
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:38,880
Speaker 3: how bad things can get if you don't really regulate

894
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 3: this business aggressively.

895
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:47,799
Speaker 1: What's the what's left of the black market versus the

896
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:50,319
Speaker 1: free market? I mean, or is it still hard to

897
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:52,600
Speaker 1: assess because you basically two of the biggest states in

898
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:56,920
Speaker 1: the Union still aren't legal, Texas and California.

899
00:51:57,040 --> 00:51:59,759
Speaker 3: Right, But they've got prediction market betting now, so plenty

900
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:01,640
Speaker 3: of people will be betting on the Super Bowl through

901
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:05,440
Speaker 3: prediction markets in ways that are basically indistinguishable from what

902
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:07,120
Speaker 3: you can get onsuishable.

903
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:07,479
Speaker 2: Yeah.

904
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:09,880
Speaker 1: I've looked at it, and you're like, it's the same

905
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:12,960
Speaker 1: point spread, it's the same You're just buying a quote

906
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 1: share or something like that. You know.

907
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:18,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, they've even introduced they've even introduced so called combos

908
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:20,719
Speaker 3: for the Super Bowl that are they're parlays?

909
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:23,600
Speaker 2: Who are we kidding? Yeah, you know.

910
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:26,080
Speaker 3: I don't want to sound like a broken record with

911
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:28,879
Speaker 3: the arguments for legalization. I do think it's worthwhile, though,

912
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:31,360
Speaker 3: to assess them in light on what's happened. One of

913
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 3: the main arguments was it would drive out the black market,

914
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:36,440
Speaker 3: that if you could bet legally, why would you bother

915
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 3: go into a bookie or some sketchy website.

916
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:40,560
Speaker 2: That has not happened.

917
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:45,280
Speaker 3: One credible estimate I think is that about fifty billion

918
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:49,840
Speaker 3: dollars continue to be wagered illegally. That might be baffling.

919
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:52,560
Speaker 3: Even beyond the states that haven't legalized. Why are people

920
00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:57,000
Speaker 3: in states with legal betting betting illegally. There will always

921
00:52:57,080 --> 00:53:01,319
Speaker 3: be some inherent appeals to going under the table, you know,

922
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:04,760
Speaker 3: betting anonymously, betting on credit, betting on things you can't

923
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:09,080
Speaker 3: bet on through licensed operators. But again, the idea that

924
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:12,880
Speaker 3: we would drive this out through legalization was either naive

925
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:17,760
Speaker 3: or disingenuous. And when we're talking about corrupting sports, they said,

926
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:20,279
Speaker 3: the legal market will give us this huge window in

927
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:23,400
Speaker 3: the betting activity. I spoke with all sorts of people

928
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:28,000
Speaker 3: inside sports, including at the companies that monitor those bets,

929
00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:31,520
Speaker 3: and they say, if we had a real sophisticated fixer

930
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:35,080
Speaker 3: and a gambling syndicate working with them, they would obviously

931
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:37,239
Speaker 3: still go through the black market, and we would have

932
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 3: such a difficult time catching that.

933
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:40,680
Speaker 2: So that problem.

934
00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 1: By knowing this, only really the idiots are going to

935
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:47,440
Speaker 1: use the traceable systems of the mobile. I mean, I

936
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:49,440
Speaker 1: still think one of the most you know, the greatest

937
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 1: trick the Silicon Valley ever pulled is if the federal

938
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:58,160
Speaker 1: government said, if everybody could please carry a device that

939
00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 1: we could track you with. No, you would get that device.

940
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:05,200
Speaker 1: But when when Tim Cook says, hey, we've got this

941
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:08,080
Speaker 1: really cool device that allows you to track all sorts

942
00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:10,640
Speaker 1: of things, and here's air tags and here's all sorts

943
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:14,000
Speaker 1: of things. You know, we'll gladly submit ourselves. You know,

944
00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:18,839
Speaker 1: so it does, you know, Thank goodness, we've all been

945
00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:21,520
Speaker 1: dumb enough for some of these guys to allow us

946
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:25,440
Speaker 1: to carry around a GPS monitor.

947
00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:28,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like, in a way, legalization is like laying

948
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 3: a trap for really stupid people and the hardened criminals,

949
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:35,560
Speaker 3: the people who know what they're doing would never be

950
00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:37,600
Speaker 3: so clumsy.

951
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:40,480
Speaker 1: Well, Danny, look, it's an eye opening book. It's just

952
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:44,880
Speaker 1: one of those. And I don't I don't want this

953
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:48,560
Speaker 1: to come across the wrong way. But it's like everything

954
00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:52,160
Speaker 1: you reported is like, of course I hate to say that, right, Like,

955
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:54,360
Speaker 1: and there were things I didn't know, but yet it

956
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:58,400
Speaker 1: still came across of like, oh duh, right, of course

957
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:00,920
Speaker 1: this is how it's working. Of course they're doing this, right,

958
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 1: This is all in pursuit of the mighty dollar, right, Like,

959
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:08,960
Speaker 1: there's no doubt what the motivation is. And we are

960
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:14,080
Speaker 1: putting a generation of young men in harm's way, and

961
00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:16,400
Speaker 1: I think that's the thing that out have scared the

962
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:17,600
Speaker 1: but Jesus out of all of us.

963
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, and again, Gosh, say the whole book. I know

964
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:24,960
Speaker 3: you preface it how you did. I think there's stuff

965
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:27,319
Speaker 3: that will blow people away if they read the book.

966
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:30,359
Speaker 3: And I also think even if you suspected that there

967
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:32,839
Speaker 3: are some people in the industry who are conflicted about

968
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:36,400
Speaker 3: what's happening, to hear them say it so bluntly that

969
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 3: they feel like this is ethically problematic or like shit

970
00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:43,240
Speaker 3: could really hit the fan if certain types of bets

971
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:43,760
Speaker 3: take off.

972
00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:46,120
Speaker 2: I think that is sobering.

973
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:48,160
Speaker 3: Even if we sort of had a hunch that people

974
00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:50,319
Speaker 3: might have felt that way, to hear them say it is.

975
00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:52,800
Speaker 1: Basically what you're saying. You found people in the industry

976
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:54,680
Speaker 1: that is like, I can't believe we get to do

977
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:55,240
Speaker 1: this legally.

978
00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:56,320
Speaker 2: Exactly.

979
00:55:56,640 --> 00:56:04,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, Danny, the books called everybody loses, but some of

980
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:05,959
Speaker 1: us are still going to chase the wind on Super

981
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:08,160
Speaker 1: Bowl Sunday. Anyway, Danny appreciate the time.

982
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:09,479
Speaker 2: Thank you, Chuck

983
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:11,920
Speaker 1: H