1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,840 Speaker 1: The Michael Berry Show. It was an absolute honor to 2 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: get to meet one of my heroes, Antonin Scalia, Justice 3 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:11,480 Speaker 1: Antonin Scalia, the greatest Supreme Court justice of my lifetime. 4 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: It was in nineteen ninety five and I was staying 5 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:22,120 Speaker 1: at the University Club and Justice Scalia and Justice Thomas 6 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: were members at the University Club. I was sponsored by 7 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: a fellow named Richard Minider, who went on to be 8 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:31,159 Speaker 1: an editor at the Wall Street Journal. He headed a 9 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: British paper, headed a European paper. He's written multiple books. 10 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: He's a conservative writer, thinker, talker. And I had a 11 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: friend in law school named Angela Halsey now Angela Wallat. 12 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 1: She married a prominent doctor who is very very well 13 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: regarded at Johns Hopkins Hospitals. And Angela was a dear 14 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: friend of mine and my wife, and she introduced me 15 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: to Richard. And I was clerking for a firm in 16 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: DC called Hyman, Phelps and McNamara, and I took up 17 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 1: residence at the University Club, and was it ever in honor. 18 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 1: I was right next door to the Russian Embassy, and 19 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: we later learned that the CIA was using the University 20 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 1: Club to spy on the Russian Embassy. But it was 21 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: an all mill club where senators and Supreme Court justices. 22 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: It was very difficult to get in, very influential people, 23 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,400 Speaker 1: kind of William F. Buckley kind of people. And I 24 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:31,960 Speaker 1: met Justice Scalia over dinner with evening at a cigar dinner. 25 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:35,679 Speaker 1: Took a picture with him and Clarence Thomas. I'm in 26 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: between the two of them, and I asked him, because 27 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 1: I'm not shy, if I might be able to visit 28 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 1: his Supreme Court chambers, and he said I'd be honored, 29 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 1: and so he said, why don't you come tomorrow at 30 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: four o'clock. And so this was in the evening. I 31 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 1: had to go to work at the law firm, and 32 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: my wife was in town visiting, as luck would have it, 33 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 1: and she wanted to go with me, of course. So 34 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 1: I went to the newspapers before the Internet, and I 35 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:10,519 Speaker 1: found a photographer and I called the guy, said I 36 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: need you to meet me from the Supreme Court chambers 37 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 1: and I need you to photograph this event. So we 38 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: go in and I said Justice Scalia would be okay 39 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 1: if I take photos, if I have a photographer, and 40 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: he said I'd be honored. So he comes in and 41 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: he shows us you couldn't see there were parts of 42 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,359 Speaker 1: the chambers you couldn't take photographs, but he took lots 43 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 1: of photographs with me and my wife, and they still 44 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 1: hang on my wall to this day. The respect I 45 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 1: have for renting of Scalia is just off the charts. 46 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: But I think it couldn't have been easy to be 47 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: his child, right, I mean, he's this man is a 48 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 1: god man to people like me. So about seven years 49 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 1: ago I spoke to his son Chris. He had written 50 00:02:54,720 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: a book called Scalia Speaks. Reflections on Law, Faith and 51 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 1: a Life Well Lived. Here's the tagline. This definitive collection 52 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 1: of beloved Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia's finest speeches covers 53 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,679 Speaker 1: topics as varied as the law of faith, virtue, pastimes, 54 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:22,920 Speaker 1: and his heroes and friends. Featuring a forward by longtime 55 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: friend Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg and an intimate introduction by 56 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 1: his youngest son. This volume includes dozens of speeches, some 57 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 1: deeply personal, that have never before been published. If that 58 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 1: doesn't make you want to read the book, then hopefully 59 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: this interview will including Justice Scalia's deep and abiding faith 60 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 1: and how it made him so much of the man 61 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: he was enjoy. Those of you who know me well 62 00:03:55,360 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: know that there is a photograph very proud of that 63 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: hangs in my on my wall here at the station. 64 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 1: There is a similar but different photograph that hangs on 65 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: the wall at my home, in my study, and the 66 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 1: star of those photographs is antonin Scalia, when I was 67 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 1: a wee willy law student, he granted me an audience 68 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 1: and I hired a photographer to follow me there, and 69 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:27,840 Speaker 1: my wife, who was a practicing lawyer she'd just come 70 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 1: out of law school, was there and we spent well 71 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 1: over an hour in his chambers, and he was fascinated 72 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 1: because my wife is Indian, he was fascinated. He had 73 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 1: just been that summer before to India where he had 74 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:45,239 Speaker 1: sat with the Supreme Court of India. Throughout law school, 75 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 1: he was my hero. I would read his opinions, I 76 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: would learn everything I could about him, and he's who 77 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: I most wanted to grow up and be like as 78 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:59,919 Speaker 1: a lawyer. His passing unexpectedly deprived us an opportunity of 79 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 1: him in his twilight years, really getting an opportunity to reflect, 80 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 1: which I looked forward to. But now a much needed 81 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,159 Speaker 1: and much anticipated book has been written by his son, 82 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 1: Christopher J. Scalia goes by Chris. It's called Scalia Speaks, 83 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 1: Reflections on Law, Faith and Life Well lived. Chris, an 84 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 1: honor to have you on. What made you want to 85 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 1: write this book? 86 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me on, Michael, It's my pleasure. Well, 87 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 2: first of all, I did very little writing. Fortunately, my 88 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 2: father did most of the hard work. I just had 89 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:37,479 Speaker 2: to select, along with my co editor, Ed Whalen, who 90 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 2: clerked for my father, just select which speeches were the 91 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 2: best ones. And that was difficult in its own right. 92 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 2: But you know, we wanted we wanted to make sure 93 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 2: that my father's ideas found their way, unfiltered, to as 94 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 2: many people as possible after his death, and a collection 95 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 2: like seemed the best way to do that. So we collected. 96 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:06,720 Speaker 2: We read through a couple hundred of his speeches and 97 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 2: were amazed by the variety of the speeches as well 98 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 2: as the high quality. Not just I mean we knew 99 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 2: that the speeches would be good, obviously, but pretty much 100 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 2: all of the speeches were good. So it was really 101 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:24,279 Speaker 2: difficult to choose which not to include here. And obviously 102 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 2: there are a lot of wonderful speeches in which he 103 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,919 Speaker 2: sets forth his approach to interpreting the law in the Constitution, 104 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:35,039 Speaker 2: and those are probably the most important as far as 105 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 2: hope securing his legacy goes. But there are twelve speeches 106 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 2: about that. Most of the speeches there are nearly fifty 107 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 2: in this collection are about very different things. There's a 108 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 2: great speech in here about the games and sports he 109 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:57,839 Speaker 2: played as a kid in Queens. There's a great speech 110 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:02,720 Speaker 2: in here also about turkey hunting. He was a big 111 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 2: fan of hunting and turkey hunting in particular, and he 112 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 2: delivered a speech to a group of turkey hunters. So 113 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 2: this collection, we're hoping is of course going to be 114 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 2: of interest to people who admired him as a justice, 115 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 2: But this is not for law students alone. This is 116 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 2: not for legal scholars. All of these speeches, including the 117 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 2: ones and the most law heavy speeches, are going to 118 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 2: be accessible to anybody. 119 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: Did he like giving speeches. 120 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 2: Oh, he loved it. I think he liked it in 121 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 2: part because as far as the legal speeches go, they 122 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 2: were an opportunity for him to persuade people. You know, 123 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 2: he loved arguing and he was pretty good at it, 124 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 2: and so the speeches were an opportunity to persuade. And 125 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 2: again an opportunity to persuade kind of unfiltered. Some are 126 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 2: a lot of the ideas he presents in these speeches. 127 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 2: He also presented in opinions, but opinions are necessarily for specialists. Really, 128 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 2: I mean, he did it. He tried to write. He 129 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 2: used to say that he wrote opinions for law students, 130 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 2: but and he did a great job of that. Law 131 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 2: students love reading his speeches. They'd offer his opinions. They 132 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 2: would often go to him first, as you probably. 133 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: Know I did. 134 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 2: But the problem with opinions in that regard is that 135 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 2: they have to be really focused specifically on a certain case, 136 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 2: and they're laden with footnotes and all that, and they 137 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 2: have to be pretty formal. These speeches were an opportunity 138 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 2: for him to kind of exercise different different muscles. You know, 139 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 2: he was He was a He was a ham there's 140 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:32,559 Speaker 2: no other way of putting it. He liked performing. He 141 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 2: played Macbeth in his high school performance of that play. 142 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:40,680 Speaker 2: He was a president of Georgetown's theater group when he 143 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 2: was there. You probably know that he had a couple 144 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 2: of cameo appearances and operas. And he was a great 145 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:50,719 Speaker 2: joke story, great storyteller, and these speeches give him more 146 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 2: of a chance to display that side of his personality 147 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 2: than legal opinions do well. 148 00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:00,679 Speaker 1: And and I think for me, I had him up 149 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 1: on this pedestal as this great man of law and thought, 150 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 1: but to learn later in life. I was reading a 151 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: Washington Post piece about you or that you wrote last year. 152 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: It was called my father antonin Scalia. And one of 153 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: the things that surprised me the most. There were a 154 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: lot of things that I knew about his friendship with 155 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: Ruth beder Ginsburg and all those, but was that he 156 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 1: developed a friendship with Ricky Skaggs, and that just seems 157 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 1: so out of character. And I loved that about him. 158 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 1: It was it made him real to me. 159 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, he got Ricky Skaggs was is still great to 160 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 2: my mother and great to my family. But yeah, one 161 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:37,719 Speaker 2: of my last memories of my father is going to 162 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 2: a Ricky Skaggs concert with him. And then shortly after 163 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:43,959 Speaker 2: he died, I went to concert with him with my mom, 164 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 2: a Ricky Skagg's concert and it was very moving. He 165 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 2: dedicated a song to my family. It was it was 166 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 2: very powerful. But my father, yeah, he was, I mean, 167 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 2: he obviously he went to elite schools, and he was 168 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 2: on the Supreme Court. But he you know, he wasn't 169 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:06,440 Speaker 2: an elitist, you know, in the stereotypical way. He loved 170 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 2: getting out of Washington. He loved, as I said, turkey 171 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 2: hunting and all kinds of hunting because it gave him 172 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 2: a connection to it, kind of kept him grounded with, 173 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 2: you know, much of the rest of America in a 174 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 2: way that you know, staying put in DC wouldn't do. 175 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: Did it give you? Chris Kalia as our guest, the 176 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 1: book is Scalia speaks reflections on law, faith and life 177 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: well lived. Did it give you some comfort that he 178 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:31,959 Speaker 1: passed while doing one of the things he loved the most, hunting? 179 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 2: It did? Obviously, he died very far away from home, 180 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 2: and we didn't get a chance to say goodbye. Nobody 181 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 2: wants that. But he died peacefully, and he died doing 182 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 2: something he loved, so that that was a comfort to us. Definitely. 183 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: When you got the news, what goes through your mind 184 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 1: this great man who also happens to be from a 185 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: purely selfish perspective, Dear old dad, what was your immediate thought? 186 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, obviously it was a gut punch and I 187 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 2: heard from my brother. He called me. He called me, 188 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 2: and uh I answered the phone jokingly as you kind 189 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 2: of as you often do with the brother. And I 190 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 2: could tell immediately that something was wrong, just by his 191 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 2: tone and how concerned he sounded right away. Yeah, it 192 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 2: was it was disbelief. I really didn't believe it. Uh 193 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 2: you know, obviously he wasn't a young man, but but 194 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 2: I just none of us saw it coming. So we 195 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 2: family gathered quickly, and there was some comfort in being 196 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 2: with my families as uh as quickly as we could. 197 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:40,839 Speaker 2: Within a couple of hours, we're all together, and that 198 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 2: that was some comfort. But yeah, it's just no, I guess, 199 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 2: no different in most ways than than anybody who finds 200 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 2: out that a loved one has suddenly died. We knew 201 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 2: that there would be kind of political, uh consequences to it, 202 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 2: but we weren't. That wasn't our focus. Obviously. It was 203 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 2: just losing losing my father and my mom losing her husband. 204 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 1: Chris Kalia as our guest. The book is called Scalia 205 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 1: Speaks Reflections on law, faith and life well lived. Antonin 206 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:17,560 Speaker 1: Scalia changed the United States Supreme Court during his tenure there, 207 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:24,559 Speaker 1: and he changed America through his jurisprudence, his faith, his spirit, 208 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: his writings, his love of our country. And we'll talk 209 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: more about that coming up next the Michael Berry Show. 210 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 3: There's a lot of it going around. They talk about 211 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 3: a dysfunctional government because there's disagreement, and they and the 212 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 3: Framers would have said, yes, that's exactly the way we 213 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 3: said it up. We wanted this to be power contradicting 214 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 3: power because the main ill that beset us, as as 215 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 3: Hamilton said in The Federalists, when he talked about a 216 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:03,839 Speaker 3: separate Senate, he said, yes, it seems inconvenient, but inasmuch 217 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 3: as the main ill that besets us is an excess 218 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 3: of legislation, it won't be so bad. 219 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 1: Our guest is Chris Kalia. He is one of I 220 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 1: guess it's nine children, is that right? 221 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:19,199 Speaker 2: Nine children and at current count thirty nine my mom 222 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:20,719 Speaker 2: and dad of thirty nine grandkids. 223 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:25,320 Speaker 1: My goodness, good Catholic family, as John Gaffigan says, good 224 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 1: Catholic family. Chris Scalia is one of nine children born 225 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 1: to Antonine and Marine Scalia, and he has published a book, 226 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 1: I guess you don't say written because it's mostly a 227 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 1: culmination of his speeches Scalia speaks reflections on law, faith, 228 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:47,319 Speaker 1: and life well lived. Where were these speeches actually archived 229 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: or kept? Where did you find these? 230 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 2: We got these all from his office, from his chambers. 231 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 2: He has got in touch with his longtime secretary, Angela, 232 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 2: who had them hard copies of them, of most of them, 233 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 2: and then a few discs, actually a box, a box 234 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 2: of floppy discs, if you can believe it. So we 235 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 2: read through about I think about two hundred speeches. There 236 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 2: was some overlap on the speeches. Some would have, you know, 237 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 2: different beginnings, but the same center. And but but for 238 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 2: the most part they obviously all the speeches and here 239 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 2: are distinct, but so there was some overlap. But but 240 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 2: I would say probably two close to two hundred distinct speeches. 241 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 1: Antonin Scalia is, to my reckoning, you know, overwhelmingly influential 242 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:51,359 Speaker 1: in American jurisprudence because of his intellectual prowess, and his consistency, 243 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 1: and his ability to articulate originalism and and and his 244 00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 1: his is staying true to our constitution. And there is 245 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 1: a cultish following. I mean in law school, the Federalist 246 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: Society folks, and to this day have folks, and we 247 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 1: still revere him in this way, maybe even more so 248 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: after his passing. And then you have folks on the 249 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: left that just consider him this awful person because they 250 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: can't understand what he was saying, or they disagree with him, 251 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 1: and they make it personal. As you read through these 252 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: speeches and having lived a life with him, what do 253 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: you hope people will take away from antonin Scalia that 254 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: they didn't already know. 255 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 2: I think that they will get a fuller picture of 256 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 2: what he was like as a person. For one thing, again, 257 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 2: because the variety of speeches and the topics he covers, 258 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:49,479 Speaker 2: you get to see that he was thoughtful and important 259 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 2: for many reasons apart from the law. There's a section 260 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 2: of speeches, for example that we called on faith, and 261 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 2: the religious speeches he delivered were very important. But then 262 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 2: there are a number of speeches about education. There's a 263 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 2: great speech about how to write well, and of course, 264 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 2: and then also you get a sense of what kind 265 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 2: of a friend he was and what he valued in friends. 266 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 2: The last section is a set of speeches about heroes 267 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 2: and friends, so heroes like George Washington and Abraham Lincoln, 268 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 2: but also friends as sorry. A roast of Justice Ginsburg, 269 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 2: which is very funny, and then farewells to more obscure 270 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 2: friends he had, which are just beautiful. You get a 271 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 2: sense of what he was like as a person, what 272 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 2: he valued in friendship, what he admired about the people 273 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 2: he knew. I was just gonna say so, even people 274 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 2: who admire him are going to see him as a 275 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 2: fuller man here, and people I think his critics misunderstand 276 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 2: what he was up to. These speeches give him a 277 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 2: chance to present the case for originalism more fully, and 278 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:05,920 Speaker 2: particularly his beliefs about the role of his faith in judging. 279 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:09,439 Speaker 2: I think the left in particular has a very distortive, 280 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:14,920 Speaker 2: distorted view of what he thought his Catholic belief meant 281 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,640 Speaker 2: for his judging. And spoiler alert, it did not mean 282 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 2: that he thought he should interpret the law based on 283 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:25,919 Speaker 2: Catholic teaching. In fact, just the opposite. He knew that 284 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 2: he had to put his Catholic faith aside and interpret 285 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 2: the laws as they were written and as history and 286 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 2: tradition dictated. His Catholic beliefs had nothing to do with, 287 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:40,879 Speaker 2: for example, his anti Roe position. It was because he 288 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:44,400 Speaker 2: believed as he did about Roe v. Wade, because there's 289 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 2: nothing in the law in the clear words of the 290 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 2: Constitution or the history of it, to defend or to 291 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 2: grant basically unlimited access to abortion. His Catholic, as he 292 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 2: says in a couple of speeches, his Catholic faith isn't 293 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 2: the reason for him belief. 294 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 3: There. 295 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: My guest is Chris Kalia. He's the one of nine 296 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:09,399 Speaker 1: children of Antonin Scalia, and the book is Scalia speaks 297 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 1: reflections on law, faith and life well lived. Let me 298 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 1: ask you to take off the editor and author hat 299 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,199 Speaker 1: for a moment and be anton and Kalia's son and 300 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:21,119 Speaker 1: talk about you righte that he drove the family to 301 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 1: Mass every Sunday, that he brought his well worn Roman. 302 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 1: I don't know how you pronounce this missile. Missile, Yeah, missile, 303 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 1: I'm Southern Baptist. We don't have a missile. And you 304 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,680 Speaker 1: talked about how the pages were wrinkled from holy water, 305 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 1: and you talked about the importance of the homily to 306 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 1: him or the sermon to him, and that if he 307 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 1: liked a sermon, he would go up and tell the 308 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:46,239 Speaker 1: priest that talk a bit. If you would ask his 309 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:50,400 Speaker 1: son about the role of Catholicism and his faith to. 310 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 2: Him, it was always clear to us that he took 311 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 2: it seriously and not just because there were nine kids, 312 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,919 Speaker 2: though that is evidence, I guess. 313 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 3: He. 314 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 2: You know, it was interesting. He never he and my 315 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 2: mom didn't sit up. I should put it this way. 316 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:12,120 Speaker 2: They rarely sat us down and lectured us about religion, 317 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:15,439 Speaker 2: but they just we could tell by how they lived 318 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 2: by putting an emphasis on getting to church every Sunday 319 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 2: and on Holy Days, saying grace before meals every night, 320 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:27,920 Speaker 2: making and my dad making a point of being home 321 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 2: for dinner every night. And it was just, you know, 322 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 2: there was the house was kind of it was not 323 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 2: an uptight and repressive atmosphere at all, as I think 324 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,920 Speaker 2: maybe that might be the stereotype of a devoutly religious house. 325 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 2: It wasn't like that it was, but it was you know, 326 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:49,199 Speaker 2: ingrained as part of the house, and you know, we 327 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 2: just seeing my dad pray at Mass was always very 328 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 2: moving because he was always very intent about it. And 329 00:19:55,880 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 2: I mentioned the importance he placed on the homily during Mass, 330 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 2: but also the music. You could see the joy he 331 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 2: experienced when he sang a hymn he really liked, and 332 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 2: the pain that it would cause him to hear him 333 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 2: that he didn't like, and I don't know. I've just 334 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 2: obviously I loved him growing up, and I admire him 335 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:18,439 Speaker 2: more and more as I get older and start a 336 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,160 Speaker 2: family of my own. Just how difficult it is too. 337 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 2: I don't have nine children, but you know, just getting 338 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 2: to the kids to church every week and making time 339 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 2: with them a priority, and being good at your job 340 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,679 Speaker 2: and all those things, and being a good, prayerful person. 341 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 2: It's difficult. And I admire my dad more and more 342 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,120 Speaker 2: every really passing day for what he accomplished. 343 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:43,880 Speaker 1: You note in the piece you wrote for the Washington 344 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 1: Post of you and your brothers and sisters, we could 345 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,159 Speaker 1: have done without the weekends he made us work in 346 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:53,680 Speaker 1: the yard. I once tried to beg off mowing the 347 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,159 Speaker 1: lawn by pointing out that I had a cross country 348 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 1: meet that weekend. So he did it himself, after reminding 349 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:01,920 Speaker 1: me that a Supreme Court justice probably had better things 350 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:05,119 Speaker 1: to do as well. So will your kids work in 351 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 1: the yard? Is that an experience that. 352 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 2: No? I think? So I do again. This is one 353 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:18,199 Speaker 2: of those things I appreciate more now, uh I. I 354 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 2: will make my kids work in the yard because it 355 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 2: teaches you important lessons. And I think that my father 356 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,159 Speaker 2: saw that those occasions as an opportunity to teach us 357 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 2: the importance of doing a job right, not taking shortcuts, 358 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 2: and and and kind of working with your hands a 359 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 2: little bit too. Especially, you know, we we wouldn't have 360 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,680 Speaker 2: we grew up in the upper middle class suburbs. We 361 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:42,640 Speaker 2: wouldn't have would have been harder for us to get 362 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 2: experiences like that otherwise. 363 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: Our guest is Chris Scalia. The book is Scalia Speaks 364 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 1: Reflections on Law, Faith and Life Well Lived. It's a 365 00:21:53,880 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: compilation of previously unpublished speeches by his late father, Court 366 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,640 Speaker 1: Justice Atonin Scalia. He is our guest. We will continue 367 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: our conversation coming up next. Chris Kalia is our guest. 368 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,679 Speaker 1: The book is called Scalia Speaks Reflections on Law, Faith 369 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 1: and Life Well Lived. Chris, when you when you look 370 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 1: through these speeches, to what extent do you feel, I mean, 371 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 1: some of what Supreme Court justice is right, I mean, 372 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:35,679 Speaker 1: as influential as it is on the lives of our populace. 373 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,400 Speaker 1: Some of what they write is in a language that 374 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: is so high brow that it's inaccessible to the everyman 375 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 1: whose life is is being affected by that. Do you 376 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 1: get a sense in his speeches that he's trying to 377 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,679 Speaker 1: to to explain these things in ways that the that 378 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: the layman can understand. 379 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 2: Absolutely, that was crucial to him, and that's one of 380 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:02,439 Speaker 2: the reasons he spoke to so many organizations, again, not 381 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 2: only legal He would deliver his legal speeches not only 382 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 2: to legal organizations, but to the general public as well, 383 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:13,879 Speaker 2: and especially in this collection, we for exactly that the 384 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 2: reason you just mentioned, We thought it was especially important 385 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 2: to only include speeches that non specialists would find it interesting. Again, 386 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 2: specialists will too, but non specialists will find this really 387 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 2: accessible and interesting. He thought it was crucial for a 388 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 2: democracy to thrive, that the people knew what was going on, 389 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:39,199 Speaker 2: and in the case of the Supreme Court, you know, 390 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:41,920 Speaker 2: as you know, his kind of recurring theme was that 391 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 2: the court had seized too much, how power from the 392 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 2: people by departing from what became to be known as originalism, 393 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 2: which was focusing on the original intent, original public meeting 394 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 2: of the constitution and laws, and by departing from that, 395 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,679 Speaker 2: the court had taken power away from the legislature and 396 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:08,119 Speaker 2: kind of determined declared itself the arbiter of what a 397 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 2: society's morals are. And my father argued again and again 398 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 2: that's the people's job. We need the judges needed to 399 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 2: keep that power in the hands of the people. That said. 400 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:21,679 Speaker 2: Kind of a corollary of that belief was that it 401 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:25,239 Speaker 2: was crucial for the people to be informed and to 402 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 2: be engaged, to be educated about their government and their 403 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:35,920 Speaker 2: national history, and to have strong values. A crucial part 404 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 2: of the civic education, he believed, and he pointed to 405 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 2: the Founders as evidence, was that people needed to be 406 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:49,160 Speaker 2: needed to have a strong moral foundation, often, though not necessarily, 407 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 2: but my dad said, often grounded in religion, and there 408 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 2: certainly needed to be room for religion in the public square, 409 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,160 Speaker 2: and without those elements, the democracy would struggle. 410 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 1: Chris, when you read through these speeches, I'm sure obviously 411 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:06,720 Speaker 1: you couldn't go to all these and some of these 412 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,920 Speaker 1: were new to you. What were some things that came 413 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 1: out that you were surprised by or that you had 414 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 1: not expected. 415 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,119 Speaker 2: A couple of things. First, as I mentioned before, I 416 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 2: was I was surprised by the variety of the speeches, 417 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 2: and one in particular, I mentioned, the turkey hunting one 418 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 2: he delivered a speech at Juilliard's School of the Arts 419 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 2: in New York City. I had no idea he did that, 420 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 2: and it seemed like a pretty It's kind of like 421 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 2: almost like Daniel in the lions Den. Not not a 422 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 2: very hospitable crowd. But I spoke to the college, the 423 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:42,880 Speaker 2: school president who invited him, and he said, yeah, that's 424 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:44,879 Speaker 2: one of the reasons I invited him. I knew the 425 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 2: people there wouldn't hear these ideas otherwise. My father delivered 426 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 2: a great speech about the law and the arts. So 427 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,359 Speaker 2: some of the speeches themselves and the audiences were very surprising, 428 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,359 Speaker 2: that foremost among them. But I was also surprised by 429 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 2: how funny they were. Obviously I knew my dad was funny, 430 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:08,480 Speaker 2: but the self deprecating humor in these speeches is it's 431 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:15,159 Speaker 2: pretty constant and consistently entertaining. The speech I mentioned before 432 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 2: about the games and sports he played when he was 433 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 2: a kid, begins with a line something like, I am 434 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 2: often asked to what do I owe my athletic prowess? 435 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 2: Which is a great, great line that because nobody he 436 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,359 Speaker 2: spent his life sitting on the bench, you know, he 437 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 2: had no athletic. 438 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 1: Prowess, literally sitting on the bench. 439 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 2: Literally sitting on the bench. So I thought that was 440 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 2: just a great way to open a speech to kind 441 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,359 Speaker 2: of disarm the crowd with self deprecating humor, just a 442 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,639 Speaker 2: great line. I mean, there's so many passages here that 443 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 2: are laugh out loud funny. 444 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 1: How many speeches are Are the speeches included in their 445 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:53,360 Speaker 1: totality or have you picked and chosen bits of those speeches? 446 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 2: Almost all of them are in their totality almost not 447 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 2: only a handful have ever been published before. We tried 448 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 2: to have a very light hand with the editing. My 449 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 2: father was an excellent writer, uh and delivered a lot 450 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 2: of these speeches on many occasions, so they were They 451 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 2: were mostly pretty polished. The maybe the greatest exception was 452 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 2: the Turkey hunting speech, which we took from a transcription, 453 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 2: and we edited that one a bit. But for the 454 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 2: most part, we didn't didn't touch them very much. 455 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 1: Forgive me for going fanboy, but he's one of my heroes. 456 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,399 Speaker 1: Did he write these speeches in long hand until his 457 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:33,119 Speaker 1: final days? 458 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:39,639 Speaker 2: I think he took notes on Longhand, but I'm not 459 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 2: even sure about that. I mean, I when I saw 460 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:45,680 Speaker 2: him writing, he was typing. He generally is the typewriter, 461 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 2: I know that's or not the typewriter, the keyboarding computer 462 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 2: in the earlier days it may have been long hand 463 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 2: and typewriter, but by the by the time I really 464 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 2: was paying attention when I saw him writing, it was 465 00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,040 Speaker 2: at a monitor, much less romantic, I'm afraid. 466 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: But well, no, I'm fascinated by how he did what 467 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,159 Speaker 1: he did. One of the things you talk about in 468 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 1: the piece you wrote about him that I read in 469 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: Washington Post was the late nights that after spending his 470 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 1: family time, he retired to his study. And everyone knew 471 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,639 Speaker 1: Dad had to work, you know, as a Supreme Court 472 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: justice with a lifetime appointment. Do you think that he 473 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 1: stood up from the dinner table and left the family 474 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 1: and went into his study because he felt it was 475 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 1: an obligation or do you think that he derived a 476 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 1: great joy from that? 477 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 2: I think is it possible to say both? 478 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 1: It is, but I mean they're very different, and I 479 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 1: think one had to have a greater driving force. 480 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 2: I think it was difficult for him to do that 481 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 2: as consistently as he did. I mean, it was hard 482 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 2: work for him. He enjoyed it absolutely, and he enjoyed 483 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 2: trying to persuade people, but he also saw it as 484 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 2: you know, an obligation of his to because he believed 485 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 2: in these ideas so strongly he needed He knew that 486 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 2: it was he had to constantly make these points and 487 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 2: make these arguments, and you know, writing, writing, changing the 488 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 2: subject slightly. Writing was hard work for him. And I 489 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 2: know that, you know the case with most writers, the 490 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 2: words just don't flow from the fingers onto the keyboard. 491 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 2: He really struggled with it. And you know there's that old, 492 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 2: that old saying. I've heard it attributed to many people. 493 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 2: I don't like writing, but I like having written, and 494 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 2: I think that that's certainly true of my father. 495 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: Chris Scalia is our guest. The book is Scalia Speaks, 496 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 1: Reflections on Law, Faith and Life Well Lived. Will have 497 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 1: one more segment with him coming up next. Chriscalia is 498 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: our guest. He is one of nine children of the 499 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 1: late Great Anton Scalia, Supreme Court Justice and one of 500 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 1: my great heroes. The book is called Scalia Speaks Reflections 501 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 1: on Law, Faith and Life Well Lived. Chris, I want 502 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 1: to go back to a point we were talking about 503 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 1: in the last segment, and that was that your dad 504 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 1: found it difficult to write, But you know you talk 505 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 1: about having written. He understood the permanence and the influence 506 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 1: of his words. Do you I get the sense in 507 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: his writings, and I've spent a lot of time pouring 508 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 1: over them, particularly when I was in law school and 509 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 1: as a young lawyer. I get the sense that he 510 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 1: had sort of a burden, and almost like an Abraham 511 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:49,720 Speaker 1: Lincoln during World War Two type burden of he felt 512 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 1: like there were these things that he knew wouldn't be popular, 513 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 1: but they had to be done. And it's a sense 514 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 1: of service and I don't know, it seems rooted in 515 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: a deep sort of Catholics sense as well. But do 516 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 1: you get that sense in reading his speeches or do 517 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 1: you sense that they're sort of lighthearted and he's you know, 518 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: he's because he was flippant and he was witty, But 519 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,959 Speaker 1: I also sense a very heavy burden in what he 520 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 1: wrote that I have to do this. It would be 521 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 1: easier if I didn't. 522 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 2: I don't I know what you're you're talking about, especially 523 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 2: in his dissense, and that's natural to come from a 524 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,720 Speaker 2: descent because you're on the losing side, and he was, 525 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 2: unfortunately too often doesn't come across really in these speeches. 526 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 2: The speeches are, they're passionate and and he's definitely laying 527 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 2: out his points clearly and trying to persuade people. But 528 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 2: they're they're joyful, they're funny, they're you know, I guess 529 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 2: his descents were often known often called skathing and bitter 530 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 2: and all that stuff by by his critics, but you 531 00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 2: don't get that sense from these speeches. He's they He 532 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 2: delivered them in different contexts from it than he was 533 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 2: would be delivering a descent. So uh, I think I 534 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 2: think his attitude was very different in delivering them. Having 535 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 2: said that, you know, he felt obligated to deliver them 536 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 2: again because he knew he needed to keep persuading people 537 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 2: getting it, he needed to keep getting his argument out there. 538 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:26,400 Speaker 2: So there's definitely that sense of obligation in that respect. 539 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 2: But the self deprecating humor and the wit that come 540 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 2: through in these speeches is I think really, even even 541 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 2: in the most argumentative ones, there's there's a real sense 542 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 2: of more of a sense of joy in them and 543 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 2: less of a sense of burdens. 544 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 1: Chris Scalia is Antonin, Marine Antonin and Marine Scalia's youngest son. 545 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:49,960 Speaker 1: I did not realize that when we start our conversation 546 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 1: of the nine. I just noted that in my notes 547 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,760 Speaker 1: I note that you are a former English professor. I'm 548 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 1: jealous of that. I've always want to be an English professor. 549 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 1: But you are not a lawyer. Are any of your siblings? Mayers. 550 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:06,960 Speaker 2: I have two brothers who are lawyers, and then. 551 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I never had enough burdens. I can't imagine being 552 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 1: a scalia and a lawyer. My goodness. 553 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 2: I yeah, well they're both. They're both pretty successful too, 554 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 2: They've they've done well for themselves. I think there was that, 555 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 2: you know, they're older than me, so I think there 556 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:23,960 Speaker 2: was that less less of a sense of burden on 557 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 2: them because they had kind of already struck out on 558 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,240 Speaker 2: their own by the time Dad was on the court. 559 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 2: It was different for me, I think in part because 560 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 2: I was ten when he became a justice, so yeah, 561 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:37,479 Speaker 2: eighty six, so I had more of a sense of 562 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 2: him as a justice being a more significant part of 563 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 2: my life. But I never really The main main reason 564 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:46,680 Speaker 2: I didn't pursue law is that I just I never 565 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 2: had any interest in it, and and Dad never really 566 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 2: pushed me in that direction at all. He was he 567 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 2: was happy with what I did, and I think he 568 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 2: was he was happy to see me become a professor 569 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 2: because his five there had been a language professor as well. 570 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 2: He taught Romance languages at Brooklyn College. And of course, 571 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 2: as you know, my father was a professor, a law 572 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 2: professor for some time as well, so he had high 573 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:11,240 Speaker 2: esteem for that work. 574 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 1: What do you think he would have done had he 575 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:14,880 Speaker 1: not gone into law. 576 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:19,839 Speaker 2: Well, he mentions in one of these speeches he had 577 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 2: toyed with the idea of becoming a priest. I think 578 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 2: he would have been a good one, but I'm glad 579 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 2: he didn't because I wouldn't be around. I think he 580 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 2: could have been. Other people have pointed this out. He 581 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:34,359 Speaker 2: could have been a writer. I mean, he's a very 582 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:38,000 Speaker 2: good legal writer, of course, but it's especially clear in 583 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 2: these speeches as well as from his opinions he can 584 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:42,840 Speaker 2: write in so many styles. He would have been a 585 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 2: very good writer. There's one speech in particular here where 586 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:51,800 Speaker 2: it's one of the eulogies or memorials. He describes days 587 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,279 Speaker 2: he used to spend with a friend now deceased, and 588 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 2: it's just it's absolutely beautiful. It reads like a classic 589 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:01,600 Speaker 2: short story, and its description of these beautiful days in 590 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 2: gardens in Charlottesville. So I think he would have been 591 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 2: possibly a professional writer would have been a way to go. 592 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:09,799 Speaker 2: But then I don't know if he could have had 593 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:11,200 Speaker 2: nine kids on that didn't come either. 594 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,320 Speaker 1: I'm surprised he could have nine kids on the Supreme 595 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 1: Court justices. 596 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:16,279 Speaker 2: Yeah. 597 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:21,799 Speaker 1: Actually, let me ask you this. When people come up 598 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 1: to you and they hear your name, I mean, it's 599 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:26,880 Speaker 1: a unique name. There's no doubt it's going to be 600 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,160 Speaker 1: a relation. What do you hear most often? 601 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 2: Well, it depends where I am. I went to graduate 602 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:38,319 Speaker 2: school at the University of Wisconsin and Madison, and that 603 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:44,080 Speaker 2: was not a demographic. I guess that really liked my 604 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 2: father very much, so, you know, occasionally I would and 605 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 2: because I was an English professor, people would actually assume 606 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 2: I wasn't related. They would think, well, he's an English professor, 607 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:58,239 Speaker 2: so he can't possibly be related to Justice Scalia, who 608 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:00,440 Speaker 2: wouldn't let his son do that or whatever. I don't know, 609 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,840 Speaker 2: So they would sometimes just kind of disparage him, not 610 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 2: knowing that there was a relation. That was rare, but 611 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:12,800 Speaker 2: it did happen occasionally. But then other times people are 612 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:16,239 Speaker 2: you know, are big fans of him and tell me 613 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 2: how much they admire him, and I appreciate the work 614 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:21,799 Speaker 2: he did and thank me. I don't know why they're 615 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:25,880 Speaker 2: thanking me, but they do. So it's you know, you 616 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:26,759 Speaker 2: get a little bit of both. 617 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:29,880 Speaker 1: You talk about in the piece you wrote that he 618 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:33,280 Speaker 1: would listen to Bach on his headphones in his study 619 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,800 Speaker 1: while he was drafting an opinion when he was reading 620 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:37,359 Speaker 1: for fun. 621 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 2: What did he read when he was reading for fun? 622 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,919 Speaker 2: He read. He didn't read really intense stuff. He would 623 00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:49,759 Speaker 2: read Tom Clancy, for example, like those he liked. He 624 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:55,319 Speaker 2: liked thrillers, thrillers, spy novels, things like that. He'd read 625 00:36:55,440 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 2: political magazines too, you know, but that was the stuff 626 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 2: for fun. He also when the stuff he read when 627 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,239 Speaker 2: he was younger stuck with him, and he would kind 628 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,200 Speaker 2: of guide me in some of my readings too, like 629 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 2: I remember and encouraging me to read Russell Kirk's The 630 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,359 Speaker 2: Conservative Mind as kind of a good introduction to conservative thought. 631 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:23,360 Speaker 2: And then Burke's reflections on the Revolutions Revolution in France 632 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 2: was another kind of touchstone for him and central to 633 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:28,000 Speaker 2: I think to his thinking. 634 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 1: Sorry, i'm taking notes. Never never makes for good radio 635 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:37,600 Speaker 1: when you're taking when you're actually listening. Yes, well, we 636 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 1: have come to the close of our time. I have 637 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,399 Speaker 1: not read the book. I will look forward to reading 638 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 1: the book. In fact, I'm going to leave here and 639 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,400 Speaker 1: go to the bookstore and buy the actual hard copy 640 00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,279 Speaker 1: instead of my usual book on tape on this one, 641 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:52,560 Speaker 1: and I'm very much looking forward to it, and I 642 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:54,400 Speaker 1: am glad. I will thank you for something that you 643 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:56,680 Speaker 1: do deserve to be thanked for, and that is taking 644 00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,480 Speaker 1: the time you and Ed to put this together so 645 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:01,719 Speaker 1: that it will be available to the rest of us. 646 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,440 Speaker 1: So with that, thank you for being our guest, Chris 647 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 1: and Michael. 648 00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,840 Speaker 2: And one last one last word for you. Ed has 649 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 2: been saying that if you think you're going to like 650 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:12,960 Speaker 2: this book, you're going to love it. And I think 651 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:14,600 Speaker 2: that's that's true with you. I think you're going to 652 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:16,279 Speaker 2: like it even more than you think you will. 653 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,600 Speaker 1: Well, I enjoy on on on Twitter, and uh yeah, 654 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:22,000 Speaker 1: thank you. I'm a fan of his as well. Thank 655 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:25,960 Speaker 1: you very much, Chris, Thanks Michael, I appreciate it. If 656 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,280 Speaker 1: you like the Michael Berry Show and podcast, please tell 657 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:33,560 Speaker 1: one friend, and if you're so inclined, write a nice 658 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:38,480 Speaker 1: review of our podcast. 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Contributions are appreciated and often incorporated 668 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,520 Speaker 1: into our production. Where possible, we give credit, where not, 669 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,239 Speaker 1: we take all the credit for ourselves. God bless the 670 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:42,960 Speaker 1: memory of Rush Limbaugh. Long live Elvis, be a simple 671 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:48,840 Speaker 1: man like Leonard Skinnard told you, and God bless America. Finally, 672 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:53,360 Speaker 1: if you know a veteran suffering from PTSD, call Camp 673 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:59,279 Speaker 1: Hope at eight seven seven seven one seven PTSD and 674 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:03,680 Speaker 1: a combat veteran will answer the phone to provide free counseling.