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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio. Now,

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Speaker 1: I've seen some people shape shift drinking a little bit

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Speaker 1: too much alcohol. Their personalities have changed. That's not what

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Speaker 1: you're talking about, right, not exactly. No, give me your

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Speaker 1: definition of a shape shifter, right, So when I'm talking

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Speaker 1: about when I'm talking about a shape shift, I'm talking

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Speaker 1: about a person who has the ability to actually transform

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Speaker 1: themselves into something else, generally an animal of some kind,

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Speaker 1: something physical, something physical. Right, It could be an animal,

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Speaker 1: it could be another person, it could actually be an

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Speaker 1: inanimate object. And we'll get into them surely on. But

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Speaker 1: as we talk about different cultures and their shapeshifter characters,

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Speaker 1: you know, some are capable of turning into a tree,

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Speaker 1: you know, or whatever it might be. And so when

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Speaker 1: I say transformation, I'm talking about a physical transformation. But

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Speaker 1: I'm also talking about transformation since sort of similar to

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Speaker 1: that drunk that you're mentioning, in which you don't see

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Speaker 1: anything physical on the outside. You know, the person doesn't

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Speaker 1: start sprouting thangs or claws or you know, anything along

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Speaker 1: those lines, but at the same time fully believes that

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Speaker 1: they have transformed into something other than human and act

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Speaker 1: out in that way. So it's very interesting, and I

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Speaker 1: think when people think of shape shifters, they think really

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Speaker 1: of primarily vampires and werewolves. All that you think of

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Speaker 1: all the old vampire movies, or Bo Lagosi or or

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Speaker 1: anybody you know playing the part turns into a bat,

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Speaker 1: you know, the vampire turned into the bat and flies

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Speaker 1: out the window. All the werewolf movies, the American Werewolf

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Speaker 1: in London, or any of the old Lawn Chaney movies.

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Speaker 1: You know, some poor guy is out there and he's cursed,

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Speaker 1: and suddenly he's sprouting hair and fangs and he's howling

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Speaker 1: at the moon. You know. So we're talking about that.

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Speaker 1: Those are the stereotypes, but the shape shifter character is

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Speaker 1: much broader, and it's it's much more universal than just that.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember the cartoon character Tom Terrific. I do

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Speaker 1: somebody remembers him? About him? He was a shape shifter.

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Speaker 1: If he was, he would have this little funny upside

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Speaker 1: down funnel as a hat yet upside down, and he

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Speaker 1: would shift into anything. Like you said, he could be

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Speaker 1: a tree, and whatever he shifted into, his little face

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Speaker 1: was on it, so you knew he was that. You know,

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Speaker 1: he was a tree he could be a door, he

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Speaker 1: could be a shoe, he could be anything. But but

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Speaker 1: that was my very first experience in shape shifting. But

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Speaker 1: it was funny and cute, Yeah it was. It was

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Speaker 1: I have to say, had forgotten all about that, but

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Speaker 1: thanks for bringing that back. But you know, even today

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Speaker 1: there's um, I have I have eleven grandchildren and a

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Speaker 1: couple of good for you, yeah, maybe little toddlers, you know,

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Speaker 1: like three four, and they're watching a cartoon called morphul

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Speaker 1: m O r pH L. And if you think of

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Speaker 1: the you know, sort of morphology, morphological, that name morphol

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Speaker 1: comes from that. And this is a little it's a

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Speaker 1: little um how described. He's a little red blob with

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Speaker 1: a nice little face on him, a cute little guy

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Speaker 1: and he changes thought the whole cartoon into everything too,

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Speaker 1: you know, but again his face is always on it,

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Speaker 1: just like um, you know, Tom's terrific there, so you

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Speaker 1: know that he's a shape shifter. But it's still out.

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Speaker 1: It's a Brenhout, it's a cart it's a brand new cartoon,

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Speaker 1: and my grandkids are watching. So that I think speaks

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Speaker 1: to the universality and also the interest that we have

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Speaker 1: in shape shifters. The fact that even little children are

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Speaker 1: watching without knowing necessarily as watching a shape shifter. There

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Speaker 1: must be some kind of reality behind these shape shifting

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Speaker 1: stories that are worldwide. Something must have happened a long

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Speaker 1: time ago, right, I think. I think if you look

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Speaker 1: at sort of the origins of where we get the

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Speaker 1: idea of the shape shifter, it goes back to prehistoric

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Speaker 1: times as far as as soon as man was upright

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Speaker 1: and walking, I think they were thinking about other entities

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Speaker 1: and how they can transform into such. We're animals. We're

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Speaker 1: part of the animal world. Although we like to think

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Speaker 1: that we're better, but you know, the reality is we're

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Speaker 1: animals like the chimps and the monk and everybody else.

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Speaker 1: We're animals. And so when you look back on the

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Speaker 1: early prehistoric societies and you look at some of the

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Speaker 1: cave paintings in a place like um there's a there's

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Speaker 1: a cave in France called plus Ware Three Brothers, and

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Speaker 1: there's this very interesting painting which actually is in my

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Speaker 1: book Shape Shifters, and it clearly shows what looks like

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Speaker 1: a deer, but it's standing upright on two legs and

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Speaker 1: the front fore legs look the hands are more articulated.

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Speaker 1: They're not really paused. There's sort of more like hands.

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Speaker 1: And if you look at the face of this thing

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Speaker 1: that's got antlers, the face clearly has a human face

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Speaker 1: to it. And so what archaeologists have speculated on is

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Speaker 1: that this was a depiction of some shamanic ritual in

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Speaker 1: which a shaman mimics the idea of a deer, and

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Speaker 1: that the hunters who were gathered around him would do

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Speaker 1: the same thing. They would go through some ritual dances

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Speaker 1: and things like that and do drawings prior to the hunt,

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Speaker 1: so that they would take on the persona of that

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Speaker 1: animal at their hunting, which would enable them obviously to

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Speaker 1: just you know, integrate themselves with a herd and they're

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Speaker 1: a deer just like everybody else. They kill it DearS.

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Speaker 1: So well, those way back to that. But I also

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Speaker 1: think there's something innate in the idea of the shape

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Speaker 1: shifter and all of us, you know, this hasn't had

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Speaker 1: some desire to be taller, stronger, faster, more intelligent, sexier, whatever,

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Speaker 1: or have that Walter Middie in us right there you go.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Walter Midi is a prime example of a

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Speaker 1: shape shifter in a sense I mean, somebody who was,

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Speaker 1: you know, just a very meek little guy, and all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden he's a superhero and these little adventures

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Speaker 1: that he has, Right, So, I think there's that And

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Speaker 1: especially if you're coming maybe from a community where you

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Speaker 1: are marginalized, or perhaps you're suffering from racism or bigotry

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Speaker 1: or something. You want something bigger and better than yourself.

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Speaker 1: You'd like to get out of that, but there's no

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Speaker 1: way to really do that, and so it becomes sort

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Speaker 1: of virtual. It becomes almost a fantasy to indulge in

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Speaker 1: that idea of a shape shifter. Well what John Kachuba

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Speaker 1: His latest book is called shape Shifters, A History John.

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Speaker 1: Generally though, when you hear about shape shifting, it is

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Speaker 1: kind of evil or the creatures kind of evil, isn't

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Speaker 1: it if for the most part, Yeah, And again we're

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Speaker 1: looking at the stereotype, you know, the werewolves and the vampires.

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Speaker 1: But you look at if we go into some of

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Speaker 1: these cultures. Ye, he was a shape shifter, right exactly.

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Speaker 1: And so and the whole idea behind that, which was

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Speaker 1: to sort of experience that darker side that we all have.

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Speaker 1: As I said, we're animals, right, The only thing that

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Speaker 1: keeps us in control is the fact that we have

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Speaker 1: some intelligence and we enact laws and moral codes and

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Speaker 1: all that. But the minute we deviate from that, we've

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Speaker 1: sort of gone to the dark side, to the animal nature.

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Speaker 1: And there's some you know, that's kind of a happy

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Speaker 1: place too in a way if you think about, hey,

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Speaker 1: I don't have to I'm not restricted by any religious

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Speaker 1: morals or by any civil laws. I can do whatever

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Speaker 1: I want. I mean, think of that freedom. It's appealing

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Speaker 1: to some people sometimes in an evil way. And that's

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Speaker 1: exactly doctor Jekyl and mister Hyde. You know, this good

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Speaker 1: doctor wants to experience the wild side and he does

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Speaker 1: as mister Jeckel, he becomes basically a murderer at one point,

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Speaker 1: you know, a sociopath and everything else, and it ends

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Speaker 1: up killing him. So there's that, And yeah, there is

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Speaker 1: that evil tendency. But I've looked at cultures all around

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Speaker 1: the world to write this book, from prehistoric times on,

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Speaker 1: and it's not always evil. Uh. You know. Frequently the

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Speaker 1: shape shifter is more a trickster m you know, pulling

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Speaker 1: pranks on people and that kind of thing. But they're

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Speaker 1: also sometimes guardians and they serve they serve a purpose.

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Speaker 1: They sort of a sort of an instructive purpose in

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Speaker 1: a sense. There are shape shifters that are frequently in water,

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Speaker 1: and you know, sulkies and leshy. I mean, there's names

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Speaker 1: who are creatures all around the world, but they all

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Speaker 1: have sort of these water creatures that will frequently they're women,

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Speaker 1: and they're seductive and frequently grab a guy and seduce

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Speaker 1: him in put them into and drowned him and rown them. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so there's evil at the same time, it's a lesson.

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Speaker 1: There's a more or lesson there, which is that you know, guys,

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Speaker 1: you know, you stick with your wife. You know, you

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Speaker 1: don't go around looking for watery women. You know, watery

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Speaker 1: women will get you in trouble. Exactly. There was that

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Speaker 1: movie in nineteen sixty three with Jerry Lewis called The

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Speaker 1: Nutty Professor. Oh yeah, he took a potion and shape shifted.

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Speaker 1: He went from this nutty professor to a guy named

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Speaker 1: Buddy Love who was suave and debonair and everything else.

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Speaker 1: That's a perfect example of shape shifting. It is, it is,

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Speaker 1: and it's exactly. Part of what I'm saying is that

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Speaker 1: the shape shift their character appeals to some of us,

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Speaker 1: because we can be much better than we are. It's

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Speaker 1: unfortunate because I think it says something about our human

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Speaker 1: nature too, sat aside with who we are. But but

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Speaker 1: that happens, and I think it's a great example because

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Speaker 1: that is part of the appeal of the shape shifters.

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Speaker 1: Maybe have superpowers or if nothing else, you know, you're

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Speaker 1: just some you're something other than yourself, you're something better.

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Speaker 1: And we all, you know, we all do that in

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Speaker 1: some sense different situations where we realize we have to

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Speaker 1: sort of step out of the role that we normally have.

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Speaker 1: We're giving a speech someplace, you know, some now suddenly

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Speaker 1: we have to be on stage, we have to be

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Speaker 1: a presence, and normally we're very introverted and we'd rather

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Speaker 1: sit in a corner and just not be good people.

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Speaker 1: So we all have that ability at times to I

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Speaker 1: want to say, shape shift in that way, but to

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Speaker 1: be to push ourselves to be something beyond what we

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Speaker 1: normally are. Now, what do you mean by external and

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Speaker 1: internal shape shifters? Right? So what I was talking about

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Speaker 1: in the book, it's it's a broad classification. But when

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Speaker 1: you think of the external shape shifter, we're talking again

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Speaker 1: about sort of the ones that you can physically see change.

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Speaker 1: You know. These are the vampires, these are the werewolves,

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Speaker 1: these are um skinwalkers, whatever they are. There are people

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Speaker 1: that suddenly you're looking at something and you're going, uh, okay,

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Speaker 1: that that is no longer human. I don't know what

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Speaker 1: that is humans. So you see the external thing, the

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Speaker 1: internal shape shift. There's more, is more a psychological state,

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Speaker 1: and the book in the book have a few examples,

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Speaker 1: but I have a couple of examples from some of

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Speaker 1: the bushmen of the Kalahari in Africa, the Kalahari Desert,

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Speaker 1: and there's two there's different guys that I didn't interview,

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Speaker 1: but I picked it up another book that talk about

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Speaker 1: how they shape shift. They're shamans, and they talk about

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Speaker 1: changing into lions. One one of them says, well, not

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Speaker 1: only lions, but I can change into pretty much anything,

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Speaker 1: you know, gazelles, deer, whatever I want. But they talk

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Speaker 1: about going through these changes. They they go into trance state,

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Speaker 1: they dance. There may be some hallucinogenic drugs involved, that's

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Speaker 1: pretty typical instances. But in any case, they talk about, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I can see, you know, Claus appearing, and I can

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Speaker 1: see my fingernails elongating. I can feel my teeth elongating.

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Speaker 1: I can sense the hair on the spine and my

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Speaker 1: spine rising up. You know, while they're saying that anybody

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Speaker 1: viewing them is not seeing this, but they're feeling that

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Speaker 1: they're feelings changed, and then they will enact out what

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Speaker 1: it means to be that animal, like a lion. I mean,

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Speaker 1: they'll have and the amazing thing is that sometimes they

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Speaker 1: actually physically do have, like extraordinary strength or something, but

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Speaker 1: more often than not, it's an internal it's an internal belief.

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Speaker 1: It's a psychological state more than anything. And there's there's

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Speaker 1: diseases like that too, like lecanthropy that's primarily for werewolves,

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Speaker 1: right exactly. Yeah, people feel that they're wolves. They actually

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Speaker 1: they actually go around all fours and may growl with

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Speaker 1: people and they snap at them. And I mean it's

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Speaker 1: a rare Okay, it's a rare thing, but it's happened,

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Speaker 1: and it's been documented cases, you know, throughout the world.

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Speaker 1: And if we get into a little bit later, I

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Speaker 1: have some interesting interesting ones there too. But again, if

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Speaker 1: you're looking at this person, you're thinking this person is

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Speaker 1: acting crazy, but you're not seeing a wolf you're seeing

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Speaker 1: a man on all four acting like a wolf? Yes,

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Speaker 1: right right? Yeah? Are they mentally you know, unstable? Well,

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Speaker 1: I think yeah. Most of the studies will say that yes,

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Speaker 1: they were mentally unstable. In fact, there's a going way

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Speaker 1: back to the seventh century. There was a Byzantine physician

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Speaker 1: whose name is gazed me at this point, but he

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Speaker 1: actually did some research on this and he came to

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Speaker 1: the conclusion back in the seventh century that these people

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Speaker 1: were suffering from some mental condition, that they were not

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Speaker 1: truly turning into wolves. And yet in the seventeenth and

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Speaker 1: sixteenth century we had people being executed for that kind

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Speaker 1: of behavior and executed on the grounds of were wolf

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Speaker 1: aery turning into a werewolf. Um, even though you look

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Speaker 1: at it said well I don't see he's a warold.

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Speaker 1: Well he hasn't shifted yet, but he will later, you know.

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Speaker 1: So there was that kind of belief as well. Have

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Speaker 1: they hurt people in the state, Oh yeah, yeah, there's

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Speaker 1: there's examples from France that are really pretty horrific, and

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Speaker 1: they go back to mostly again oddly around around the

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Speaker 1: seventeenth century, it seems like that's where they're We're pretty big,

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Speaker 1: but there's there's cases where people have well they've taken

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Speaker 1: on the appearance to the naked eye of of acting

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Speaker 1: like a wolf be again not not visibly doing it,

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Speaker 1: yet they will murder people. There's been several cases in

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Speaker 1: France where there was people that have actually gone on

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Speaker 1: and killed several people at a time, especially like children

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Speaker 1: and women, and actually have taken them apart with their

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Speaker 1: hands and then later on saying that I had claws

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Speaker 1: and when you didn't have clause, just chewing on them,

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Speaker 1: actually needing and devouring people. And these are just normally human. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'll back up on the word normal, Yeah, what is

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Speaker 1: normal these days? Yeah, I mean these are human beings

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Speaker 1: who who fully believe that they were wolves and that

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Speaker 1: you know, they had turned into a werewolf and this

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Speaker 1: is what they had done. So there's a there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of cases like that, and it's amazing that, as

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Speaker 1: they said, they all seem to come from seventeenth or

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Speaker 1: sixteenth century France, and they're really they're just they're awful

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Speaker 1: cases when you read them, because they're just so they're

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Speaker 1: just so horrific what people have done. Would you say, John,

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Speaker 1: that a serial killer could be a shape shifter. Now,

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Speaker 1: that's interesting question. I had another I had that question

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Speaker 1: brought up another interview that I did once before, and

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Speaker 1: I hadn't really given that much thought. I but I

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Speaker 1: do think that, Yes, I think this would be an

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Speaker 1: example again of that internal shape shifter. Why I think

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Speaker 1: is somebody like Ted Bundy, for instance, because they can

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Speaker 1: act normal right, and then all of a sudden, there's

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Speaker 1: something that happens and they shift right. And that's part

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Speaker 1: of the definition of a sociopath too, is that for

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Speaker 1: all practical purposes, they seem they seem okay, they seem

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Speaker 1: nice people, and yet they'll turn and they do not

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Speaker 1: like society, do not like people. They will kill people.

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Speaker 1: And Ted Bundy had that reputation. You know, he was

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Speaker 1: this clean cut, college looking guy, good looking guy, very friendly,

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Speaker 1: very outgoing, and yet he was, you know, a horrible murderer.

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Speaker 1: Well how about the was it the btke K killer

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Speaker 1: or somebody like that who his family didn't even know

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Speaker 1: he was a serial killer? Right, I mean he was

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Speaker 1: able to change at whim, right, Yeah, And that's to

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Speaker 1: me that's more scary than you know, a werewolf. Listen

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Speaker 1: to more Coast to Coast am every weeknight at one

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Speaker 1: a m. Eastern and go to Coast to coast am

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Speaker 1: dot com for more