1 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: In the winter of nineteen eighty six, Jerry Schwarzbach was 2 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:19,480 Speaker 1: driving along Highway one oh one towards San Francisco when 3 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:20,279 Speaker 1: his phone rang. 4 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 2: My very first call, my brand new carphone, saying that 5 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 2: doctor Richard Bandler has been arrested and is in jail 6 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 2: on Santa Cruz. 7 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:36,199 Speaker 1: Jerry had never heard of a doctor Richard Bandler before, 8 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: but Jerry was a dedicated criminal defense lawyer. 9 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 2: So I turned the car around and drove to Santa 10 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 2: Cruz and saw Richard in the jail. 11 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:48,560 Speaker 1: At the jail, Jerry met a very subdued Richard Bandler. 12 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 2: He was pretty pale, and he was obviously quite scared. 13 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: Bandler would soon be charged with first degree murder. What 14 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: did you see when you first saw the case against 15 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: Richard Bandler? 16 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 2: At face value, it was the overwhelming evidence of guilt. 17 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:10,959 Speaker 3: Take a deep breath in. 18 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:18,759 Speaker 4: And breathe out. 19 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 5: Your conscious mind is going to go totally away so 20 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 5: that I can speak privately on your unconscious mind. 21 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: From Kaleidoscope and iHeart Podcast. This is Mind Games Episode six. 22 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: I'm Alice Hines, I'm Zoe Lascause. 23 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:41,679 Speaker 4: You don't know how you did it? You do you? 24 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 4: You go into a little time to STARSI state, and 25 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 4: you're out of it. 26 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 3: When we began researching neurolinguistic programming, or NLP, we very 27 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 3: quickly became fascinated with the man behind it. Bandler seemed 28 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 3: like a therapy gene, but also a loose cannon who 29 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 3: regularly intimidated and threatened people in his orbit. 30 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 1: And then, of course there's the fact that he was 31 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: accused of murder in nineteen eighty six. 32 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 3: As you can imagine, the story is complicated. We're gonna 33 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 3: start with the facts. 34 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: On November third, nineteen eighty six, Santa Cruz County sheriffs 35 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:30,639 Speaker 1: were called to investigate a possible homicide. When they arrived, 36 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: they found a thirty one year old woman named corren 37 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: and Christiansen sprawled on her back in her home. She 38 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: was dead from a single gunshot wound to her face. 39 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 1: At the scene was a man named James Marino. He 40 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: told the police that he was not responsible for her death, 41 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 1: that she had been shot and killed by another man, 42 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:54,519 Speaker 1: Richard Bandler. 43 00:02:56,639 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 3: It was an explosive case in Santa Cruz. When I 44 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 3: met NLP trainer Judy de Lojer in California, she recalled 45 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 3: hearing Bandler had been arrested on TV. 46 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 6: I think we heard it on the news. 47 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 3: She was with her then husband, Bandler's former collaborator, John Grinder. 48 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 3: What did you and John say to each other? Oh? 49 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 6: Shit, Yo, shit, You know it doesn't look good. You 50 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 6: got two guys in a room with a woman, and 51 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 6: you know, the woman'stead and each of the two guys 52 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:30,079 Speaker 6: are pointing at each other. 53 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 1: You know, the two guys in the room, James Marino 54 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: and Richard Bandler had once been as close as father 55 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: and son. Now they were pointing a finger at one another. 56 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: A lot of what you will hear in this episode 57 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: comes from court transcripts of the trial in nineteen eighty 58 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: seven and nineteen eighty eight, also from my interview with 59 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: Bandler's defense attorney Jerry Schwartzbach. Who are the major players 60 00:03:57,840 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 1: in this case besides Richard. 61 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 2: Coreen Christiansen, who was the daughter of a retired San 62 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 2: Francisco police detective. 63 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 1: Correen graduated high school early in nearby San Bruno. Then 64 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: she went to work as a waitress. She liked to 65 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 1: roller skate around the neighborhood. Friends said she was sweet 66 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 1: and happy to help people, but she also hid her 67 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 1: vulnerability under a tough exterior. In photos from the time, 68 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 1: she is a man of curly brown hair and a 69 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: big smile. Corren had a few different jobs, sex work, 70 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: bookkeeping for Bandler's NLP business, and running drugs for her 71 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 1: much older boyfriend, James Marino. Marino, according to news coverage 72 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: from the time, was a fifty four year old with 73 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 1: a seventies mustache and a two page rap sheet, and 74 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:48,600 Speaker 1: he and. 75 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 2: Richard were close. He also was a drug dealer. There 76 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 2: were rumors he had connections to organized crime. 77 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: Richard Bandler and James Marino first met at an NLP seminar, 78 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 1: and they became close in the early nineteen eighties, around 79 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:08,720 Speaker 1: the time Bandler divorced from his first wife, Leslie. That 80 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: breakup was messy and contentious. So was Bandler's breakup around 81 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:17,480 Speaker 1: the same time, with his NLP co founder nearly bankrupt, 82 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: Bandler met Marino at a local bar. The two became 83 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:26,159 Speaker 1: fast friends, bonding over their love of NLP and cocaine. 84 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: By nineteen eighty six, the year of the murder, Marino 85 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 1: was allegedly supplying Bandler with an ounce of cocaine a week. 86 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:37,839 Speaker 1: According to news reports of court testimony. 87 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 2: Trying to understand Richard's relationship with him miss challenging, because 88 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:47,479 Speaker 2: on the one hand, Marino really worshiped Richard, and on 89 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 2: the other hand, he really resented him. 90 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 1: Marino told one reporter that Bandler was quote a fucking genius. 91 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,479 Speaker 1: The same writer described Marino as tall and flashy, with 92 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: a gambler's weakness for diamond and rings, white loafers, and 93 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 1: Cadillac sidans. 94 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 2: You know, people like to be around people who are famous, 95 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:13,479 Speaker 2: and Richard in that world was famous. But then Marino, 96 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 2: he did an awful lot of drugs, and you know, 97 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:19,039 Speaker 2: you do enough drugs for a long enough period of 98 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 2: time and your mind gets warped. 99 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 1: Marino was extremely paranoid, especially when it came to Corene. 100 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: In his testimony, Marino accused Corene of all sorts of 101 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 1: lurid acts that frankly defy credibility, that she slept with 102 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: seven different people every day, that she dominated them with 103 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 1: her collection of dildos, and that she supposedly recorded BDSM 104 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 1: sessions with powerful Santa Cruz clients, apparently to blackmail them. 105 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,480 Speaker 1: The media had a field day with these sensational claims 106 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:57,239 Speaker 1: when the trial began a year leader in nineteen eighty 107 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:01,159 Speaker 1: seven articles appeared in the La Times, Francisco Chronicle and 108 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 1: the Santa Cruz Sentinel. There were headlines like guns, grams 109 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: and gurus. The murder trial thrust Richard Bandler and neural 110 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: linguistic programming into the Spotlight. 111 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 2: Neural Linguistic Program. What the hell does that mean? 112 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: Bandler's lawyer, Jerry Schwarzbach, had never heard of NLP when 113 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 1: he took the case. 114 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 2: Early on in my representation of Richard, I got a 115 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 2: telephone call and it was a lawyer from Los Angeles. 116 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 2: He was a plainist personal injury lawyer, and he asked 117 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 2: me if I've read Richard's books, which I hadn't, and 118 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 2: he said, oh, you have to read them, You have 119 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 2: to read them. I told him, Look, Richard retained me 120 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 2: because he has faith that I actually know what I'm 121 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 2: doing as a lawyer, and I don't think he would 122 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 2: want me to experiment in his murder trial. 123 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: Jerry was already kind of famous. He was in his forties, 124 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 1: and the prior had represented radical lawyer Stephen Bingham, who 125 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: had been on the run for over a decade from 126 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: accusations that he smuggled a gun to imprisoned black panther 127 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 1: George Jackson. Jerry got him acquitted and Bandler needed a 128 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 1: good lawyer because the evidence was not in his favor. 129 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:25,239 Speaker 1: The first strike against him, Bandler didn't call the cops. 130 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: Marino did. That allowed him to tell his version of 131 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:32,319 Speaker 1: what happened that night, which was that it was Bandler 132 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: who shot and killed Corren. And after it happened, Marino 133 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:38,559 Speaker 1: and Bandler drove to a nearby beach town to get 134 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: rid of the gun, a three fifty seven magnum pistol 135 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 1: that they threw off the pier. 136 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 2: The police subsequently found the gun. It was Richard's gun. 137 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 2: They got a search warrant and went to search the 138 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 2: house Richard was living in. There, they found some of 139 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 2: Richard's clothes and had some of Coureine's blood and brain tissue. 140 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: The police all so took a blood sample from Bandler. 141 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 2: He had cocaine, marijuana, and alcohol in his system. 142 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:09,439 Speaker 1: And then there was the tape. 143 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 2: And when the police were walking out they saw a 144 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 2: tape recorder. They just grabbed it. 145 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: That was the next big strike against Bandler. On the tape, 146 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 1: there was a recording of Bandler arguing with Krene. At 147 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:30,439 Speaker 1: one point he threatened to quote below Correne's brains out. 148 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: This was the night. 149 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 7: Before she was shot. It was all. 150 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:39,199 Speaker 1: Looking really bad for Bandler. Marino telling his story first 151 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 1: to the police, Bandler's gun, the murder weapon getting fished 152 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 1: out of the bay, and then the tape. When Bandler 153 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 1: got his chance to explain, an even more complex backstory 154 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: started to emerge. When asked about the tape his angry 155 00:09:56,000 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: threats to Krene right before she was killed, Bandler admitted 156 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 1: did that he was angry, but he said he was 157 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:06,199 Speaker 1: trying to get information from Correne to help out their 158 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:09,959 Speaker 1: friend James Marino, who'd gotten badly beaten just a few 159 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 1: days prior. Here's the backstory from trial testimony. At a 160 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:20,559 Speaker 1: Halloween party, Marino, dressed in a pirate costume, was beaten 161 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 1: by two assailants dressed. 162 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 7: As punk rockers. 163 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: Bandler assumed Marino had done something dumb and gotten beaten 164 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 1: up by strangers at this party, but Marino blamed Corene 165 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: for setting up the attack, or at least Bandler said 166 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 1: he did. A week after the party, Correne Roller skated 167 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 1: over to Bandler's house and that's where Bandler interrogated her, 168 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 1: with the tape. 169 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 2: Running Richard was trying to get her to admit that 170 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 2: she had done that, why, et cetera. And at one 171 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 2: point he's threatened to put a bullet in her brain. 172 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 2: She was killed with a bullet in her brain the 173 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,559 Speaker 2: next day. Right it was just a matter of hours later. 174 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: The assistant district attorney assigned to the case felt like 175 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 1: it was a slam dunk. He told a reporter that 176 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 1: the physical evidence, the forensic evidence, and Marino's story all 177 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:19,439 Speaker 1: quote fit like a glove. The murder weapon was Bandler's, 178 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: the clothes stand with Qureene's blood were Bandlers, and Bandler 179 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:28,079 Speaker 1: was on tape threatening to kill kreen. 180 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,239 Speaker 3: I interviewed a bunch of NLP trainers about the shockwaves 181 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:38,559 Speaker 3: the trials sent through the community and what Bandler was 182 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 3: like in the years leading up to it. Bandler's reputation 183 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 3: wasn't exactly spotless. Since Bandler split with his collaborator John 184 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 3: Grinder around nineteen eighty, Bandler had grown increasingly paranoid and 185 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 3: self destructive. 186 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:56,080 Speaker 8: I saw him chase out eight different people or sinciplans 187 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:57,840 Speaker 8: he would get an argument with them. 188 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 3: NLP expert Michael Hall, who trained with Baandlor around the 189 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:05,239 Speaker 3: time of the trial said Bandler was aggressive with students. 190 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 3: Bandler did not respond to this characterization when asked. 191 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 8: And he would take offense at their question or their statement, 192 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 8: and then it would start cursing. Then then he would 193 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 8: say get the hell out of here. And it put 194 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 8: fear in everybody, like, don't speak up and don't ponder 195 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 8: to him, because he'll he'll chase you out. 196 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 3: Bandler seems to have been spinning out. 197 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 8: He would only show up in the afternoons because he 198 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,439 Speaker 8: would stay up real late at night drinking and dragging, 199 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 8: I suppose, so we wouldn't see him till lunchtime. And 200 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 8: so sometimes he would come in drunk. So there were 201 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 8: times when he was just sust and usually it made 202 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 8: him a better person. When he was drinking, he would 203 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 8: be a little bit kinder and. 204 00:12:54,000 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 3: Softer with it, but not always. Neighbors reported Bandlor yell 205 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 3: at their kids and waving a gun around in broad daylight, 206 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 3: telling them to shut up so he could sleep. Yikes. Yeah, 207 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 3: his drug use was epic. One friend remembered Bandler pulling 208 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 3: out the biggest bag of blow they'd ever seen, and 209 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 3: Bandler snorting straight from the pile. Other friends said he 210 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 3: surrounded himself with sex workers to avoid falling in love. 211 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 3: Marino even claimed in his testimony that Bandler was considering 212 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 3: adopting a baby and raising it alone so he wouldn't 213 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 3: have to deal with women. 214 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 1: That is so absurd, especially given where he was living 215 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 1: at the time. So according to Core documents, this house 216 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: was like a security bunker. There's a German shepherd. 217 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:42,839 Speaker 7: It was filled with. 218 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 1: Guns that he kept in a gun safe. It has 219 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 1: like a seven foot high fence all around it that's 220 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:51,080 Speaker 1: completely opaque, so no one can see in. There's bars 221 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 1: on every window. 222 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 3: Okay, so definitely not a cozy space for a baby, 223 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 3: hypothetical or otherwise, yeah. 224 00:13:57,720 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 7: Or an adult. 225 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 1: So Bandler kept voice activated tape recorders in this house 226 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:05,559 Speaker 1: and if anyone came in, there's a chance to be 227 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 1: caught on tape. 228 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 3: Which explains the tape that came up in the trial. 229 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: Yes, he used one of these recorders to tape the 230 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 1: conversation with Correne where he says he's going to blow 231 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 1: her brains out. 232 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 3: What's stunning to me, though, is that at the same 233 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 3: time that Bandler is part of this CD Santa Cruz Underworld, 234 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 3: he is also giving seminars that were really well attended. 235 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so Bandler's spiraling, why do people keep coming? 236 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 3: Well, some of his fans rationalized his behavior. I've heard 237 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 3: of him pulling knives and guns on people to sort 238 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 3: of inspire behavioral transformation. Did you ever observe that? 239 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 9: Okay, yes, So once again that's where Bandler could be misunderstood. 240 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 3: You've heard various stories about Bandler's violent threats on this series. 241 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 3: Before Wyatt told me another story about Bandler threatening to 242 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 3: beat up a rebellious teen he was trying to reform. 243 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 3: According to Wyatt, Bandler slammed the kid against the wall 244 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 3: and said, let's get one thing straight, punk, I've got 245 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 3: a perfect record. You're either going to do what I 246 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 3: tell you or I'm going to beat the shit out 247 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 3: of you. But not everyone thought they were red Flux, 248 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 3: like NLP trainer y Woodsmall, who worked with Bandler on 249 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 3: his military contracts a couple of years before the murder, 250 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 3: and he actually praised the therapeutic benefits of Bandler's threats 251 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 3: on people's lives. 252 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 9: So presumably in one of the trainings, Bandler was in 253 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 9: a bar and put a gun to the side of 254 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 9: one of his students' heads. In order to try to 255 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 9: get him to change, and the student ended up changing, 256 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 9: and so the threat worked. Richard out of the goodness 257 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 9: of his heart, would have the ultimate compassion to hold 258 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 9: a gun to the side of a student's head to 259 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 9: provide the motivating factor that would allow them to make 260 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 9: a change that up to that point they had previously 261 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 9: been unsuccessful in doing. 262 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 3: Baylor denies he ever pulled real guns on students. 263 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 1: When Bandler was arrested for Korean Christensen's murder in nineteen 264 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 1: eighty six, he was in deep trouble and the NLP 265 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: community was panicked. But Bandler had one thing going for him, 266 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: connections to law enforcement. His lawyer, Jerry Schwarzbach said, those 267 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: contacts help get Bandler out of jail. 268 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 2: Well. He had an awful lot of supporters, a whole 269 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 2: lot of people who just believed he walked down water. 270 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 2: There were governmental people who signed declarations to help me 271 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 2: get his bail reducing and thereby get him out of jail, 272 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 2: which was a very very important thing to happen. 273 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: Bandler had been cultivating these connections for years. 274 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 10: John and Richard would also go and work for attorneys 275 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:00,120 Speaker 10: like picking juries. 276 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 3: Whoa wait so lawyers would bring them in to help 277 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 3: identify people's personalities or how'd that work? 278 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 10: Yes, like they would help them pick out the jury. 279 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 3: Devre Canter Morton, the early nlper who told us about 280 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 3: Bandler and Grinder tying her to a wooden cross at 281 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:21,640 Speaker 3: a Christmas party, said they work specifically with trial lawyers. 282 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,440 Speaker 3: Back when she knew them in the nineteen seventies. 283 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 10: They could tell from different responses by the jurors which 284 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:34,399 Speaker 10: way they would go. They were actually making money helping 285 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 10: pick out jeuries, doing jury consulting. 286 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 3: Wow, I'd never heard that before. That's bananas, Yeah, it is, 287 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 3: Dev said it work kind of like a poker tell. 288 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 3: Bandler and Grinder would watch the lawyers interview the potential jurors, 289 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 3: and they'd allegedly pick people who'd be sympathetic to their 290 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 3: clients by reading their little, unconscious giveaways. Bandler didn't respond 291 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:00,679 Speaker 3: to an email asking for comment. 292 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 1: Here he is sounding very young from a cassette one 293 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: of his followers made in nineteen seventy nine. 294 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 9: Have you got any lawyers, by the way, Anny, No lawyers. 295 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 11: It's too bad. 296 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 9: Got a great thing for lawyers, any of you ever? 297 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 5: Any think I've got a new thing to get any witness, 298 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:21,440 Speaker 5: even when they're telling the truth, to admit that they lied. 299 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 1: So I listened to this tape of Bandler, and the 300 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 1: trick is basically, when you're a lawyer and you depose 301 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,679 Speaker 1: a witness, you're supposed to ask them to describe what 302 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:32,879 Speaker 1: they were wearing and where they were standing at the 303 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 1: scene of a crime. And you ask them if they 304 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: can see an image of themselves clearly in that moment 305 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 1: in time, and they say. 306 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 3: Yes, Okay, where's this going. 307 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 1: Well, months later at trial, you ask the same witness 308 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 1: the exact same line of questions and they'll respond in 309 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: the same way. Then you point out to the jury 310 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:57,239 Speaker 1: it's impossible someone could have a picture perfect image of 311 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 1: themselves when they were looking at the acts. So therefore 312 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,360 Speaker 1: this witness's memory is distorted. 313 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,160 Speaker 3: So you train them to discredit themselves. 314 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:07,479 Speaker 7: Yeah, that's what he says to do. 315 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 3: Okay, I'm just gonna cling to my ideals of justice 316 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 3: and quietly pray that never worked. I'm honestly not surprised, though, 317 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,639 Speaker 3: because when I was interviewing the veteran NLP crew, I 318 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,680 Speaker 3: heard about a different jury hustle in a publication from 319 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 3: nineteen eighty Bandler and Grinder claimed they could influence judges 320 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:29,399 Speaker 3: with NLP. They gave a few examples of how to 321 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 3: do it in this book they co authored with a 322 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:34,679 Speaker 3: few other trainers. In it, they describe mimicking the judge's 323 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:38,439 Speaker 3: speech patterns. They also described how to clear your throat 324 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 3: distinctively every time the judge seems happy to anchor those 325 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 3: positive vibes to the sound. 326 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 1: Wait, so your clearing your throat is an anchor for 327 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 1: the judge to be like psyched. That is so absurd. 328 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:54,400 Speaker 1: I could really imagine that backfiring. 329 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, it sounds distracting, especially because they specify the throat 330 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 3: clearing it needs to be like distinctive enough to be noticeable, 331 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:05,919 Speaker 3: you know, So you have to kind of do a 332 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:09,399 Speaker 3: very special throat clear but not to try but not 333 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 3: so weird that it's just completely conspicuous and strange. Oh 334 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 3: my god. 335 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:16,680 Speaker 7: Okay, so these are a ton of weird tricks. 336 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: We should let listeners know, though that we don't have 337 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:23,439 Speaker 1: any evidence these techniques were used in Bandler's own case. 338 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 3: Still, when the trial began, NLP would play a huge part. 339 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 1: That's after the break there was a ton of evidence 340 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 1: against Bandler. Assistant District attorney Gary Frye believed it would 341 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: be an open and shutcase, but when the trial started 342 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 1: on December first, nineteen eighty seven, it got off to 343 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,880 Speaker 1: a rocky start, starting with the fact that James Marino, 344 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: the prosecution's key witness, just didn't show up. Marino had 345 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:06,920 Speaker 1: been given immunity for drug trafficking charges in exchange for testifying. 346 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: He did finally show up a week late. In court, 347 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,400 Speaker 1: it turned out Marino had been in hiding. He testified 348 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 1: he thought Bandler and his CIA connections were chasing him, 349 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 1: and he said they had even fired shots in his 350 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 1: car window. 351 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 3: Bandler's lawyer, Jerry questioned Marino about this. Here's a voice 352 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 3: actor reading the exchange. 353 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 11: So you thought that he might have been using his 354 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 11: contacts in the police department to bug the phones of 355 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:38,439 Speaker 11: your friends? Is that what you're saying? Yes? And I 356 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 11: considered Richard having contacts with the CIA and the DEA 357 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,919 Speaker 11: that because when I after the shooting, I asked my 358 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 11: attorney and he said it was probably Special Forces that 359 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:52,159 Speaker 11: shot at me. 360 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 1: Marino came off during the trial as pretty unstable. Bandler, meanwhile, testified, 361 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: in a few well chosen words, he was convincing, but 362 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 1: the prosecutor still tried to use his persuasiveness against him. 363 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: Here's the assistant district attorney questioning Bandler on the stand 364 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:13,440 Speaker 1: about this NLP book. 365 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 11: He wrote, do you recall writing in transformations? 366 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:18,120 Speaker 12: Quote? 367 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 11: No matter what you do, whether you're selling cars, doing psychotherapy, 368 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:26,400 Speaker 11: or working with juries, you can do it and elicit 369 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:30,679 Speaker 11: more intense responses from people. Hypnosis will allow you to 370 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 11: do whatever you do and have a greater impact with it. Unquote. 371 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 11: Do you believe that, yes, if you use it, do 372 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,199 Speaker 11: you think perhaps you could get away with us? I 373 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 11: beg your pardon. Do you think perhaps you could get 374 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 11: away with killing Korean Christensen? I didn't kill Korean Christensen. 375 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,360 Speaker 12: When I interviewed him, he was only allowed to talk 376 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:55,160 Speaker 12: about NLP. 377 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 1: Kathy Holob reported on the case for the San Jose 378 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: Mercury News. Marino and Bandler both gave her sit down 379 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: interviews before the trial. She said that Bandler was eerily calm. 380 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 12: I described him as being very gentle. He was able 381 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:17,679 Speaker 12: to put on many different personas. That was my feeling 382 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 12: about him. 383 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 1: Marino, on the other hand, was anxious and full of 384 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: conspiracy theories, but she found him credible. 385 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 12: He seemed incapable of keeping any thought to himself. It 386 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 12: was just pouring out in this torrent and so I 387 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 12: believed him, and he didn't seem to have any guile. 388 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 3: So I read over the trial transcripts to try and 389 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:47,119 Speaker 3: iron out James Marino's version of events. Marino testified that 390 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,679 Speaker 3: Bandler killed Corren because of a secret affair she was 391 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:54,640 Speaker 3: having with one of Bandler's girlfriends. Marino said he told 392 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 3: Bandler about the affair the night before Corene was killed, 393 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,440 Speaker 3: and then early the next month, warning, he and a 394 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:05,400 Speaker 3: decidedly upset Bandler went over to Kareene's house. She let 395 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 3: them in, and Bandler locked the door behind them. Then, 396 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 3: according to Marino, Bandler pulled out his gun and pointed 397 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 3: it at Marino's head. Here's the assistant district attorney questioning 398 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 3: Marino on the stand. 399 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 11: What was it, mister Bandler said, as he pointed it 400 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 11: at you. The three of us aren't leaving here alive. 401 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 3: Marino was weak and afraid. He was maybe still concussed, 402 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,959 Speaker 3: he said. He lay down on the couch. Bandler meanwhile 403 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:41,159 Speaker 3: continued ranting and raving. At some point, Marino heard a 404 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 3: grinding sound coming from the kitchen. Marino walked over and 405 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,119 Speaker 3: saw Bandler sawing a green soap bottle in half with 406 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 3: a steak knife. 407 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 11: He looked in my eyes and he took the automatic 408 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 11: and he put it in it, and he said, it 409 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 11: makes a silence. 410 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 3: A little bit later, Marino was back on the case. 411 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,359 Speaker 3: Karen and Bandler were sitting at her dining room table. 412 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 3: The room was hushed, and. 413 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,680 Speaker 11: When you opened your eyes, then what did you see? 414 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 11: Richard staring at Corren and Correne? What was she doing? 415 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 11: Correne took her bindle again and started to put it 416 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 11: up her nose, and Richard picked up the gun, the revolver, 417 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,359 Speaker 11: and just kept staring at her. He took the gun 418 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 11: and he put it against her nose. 419 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,879 Speaker 3: At this point, according to Marino, that's when Bandler fired. 420 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 1: Bandler had an entirely different account of the night. It 421 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 1: went like this. Bandler testified it was James Marino who 422 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 1: insisted on going to Karine's house, and that Marino shot Corren, 423 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 1: just walked up and fired at her. Bandler said he 424 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 1: leapt up and grabbed a hold of Krene as she choked, 425 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 1: staining his shirt front with her blood. Jerry Schwarzbach made 426 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:04,439 Speaker 1: his case by attacking the forensic evidence against Bandler. The 427 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:08,119 Speaker 1: prosecution said that the blood and tissue on Bandler's shirt 428 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 1: was blowback from the gun fired at close range, but 429 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 1: Jerry presented evidence showing this was just incorrect. 430 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 2: Their expert testified that the gun would have had to 431 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 2: have been practically touching her skin and that was just 432 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 2: not consistent with where blood was found. 433 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 1: Jerry argued that Karine's blood got on Bandler's shirt when 434 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 1: he leapt up and caught her after Marino shot her. 435 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 1: Jerry showed persuasively that Krene's injuries confirmed Bandler's account the 436 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:42,879 Speaker 1: bullet had come from a different direction. 437 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 7: But Jerry's case also. 438 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:50,639 Speaker 1: Hinged on discrediting James Marino, and all of Marino's NLP 439 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 1: training proved to be his undoing. On December fifteenth, nineteen 440 00:26:55,600 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 1: eighty seven, Jerry began cross examining James Marino. Jerry was 441 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:04,680 Speaker 1: wearing a bow tie, a tailored suit, and raccoon ring socks. 442 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:10,440 Speaker 1: Marino looked to one reporter like a quote coked out extraterrestrial. 443 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:12,919 Speaker 2: So I got up and I walked in front of 444 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 2: council table as close as I could without getting in 445 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,919 Speaker 2: too close, and my very first question to him was, 446 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 2: are you going to kill me? Mister Marino? 447 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 1: Marino had threatened to kill Jerry to Kathy Holub, that 448 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:31,919 Speaker 1: reporter we heard from earlier, and she published his threats. 449 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:36,840 Speaker 1: In her article. Marino described Jerry as as. 450 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:41,880 Speaker 2: A fucking curly haired little jew boy. All I had 451 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 2: ever done was asking questions in a courtroom, and he 452 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 2: wanted to see me dead. So what must he have 453 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 2: thought about? Corine? 454 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 1: Marino's threats played into Jerry's hand. Then Jerry moved on 455 00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:00,680 Speaker 1: to NLP and how Marino thought he would is God's 456 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 1: gift to it. On the witness stand, Marino claimed he 457 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 1: had a superpower for detecting lies, a familiar NLP selling point. 458 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:12,160 Speaker 2: I had made a lot of headway in my cross 459 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 2: examination of him, and that caused me to do something 460 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:20,639 Speaker 2: that I rarely ever ever have done, and that was 461 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 2: to ask a question where if I got the wrong answer, 462 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:25,640 Speaker 2: you know, I didn't have a way of proving that 463 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:29,639 Speaker 2: he was lying. So I played on his basically his ego, 464 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,159 Speaker 2: because that's one of the things that I developed in 465 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,119 Speaker 2: my cross examination of how good he thought he was 466 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 2: at an NLP versus Richard and as I got there, 467 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 2: I just thought, do I do this? Do I not 468 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 2: do this? And I said hell? And I asked that question. 469 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 2: I asked several other questions similar. 470 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 1: You didn't know if he would take the bait and action. 471 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 2: No, I didn't, And I had no way of proving 472 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 2: but to get him to admit that he thought he 473 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 2: had these supernatural. 474 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: Skills, supernatural skills like turning street lights on and off 475 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 1: with his mind. James Reno testified that he was able 476 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 1: to like telekinetically control street lights. 477 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 2: Can't everybody, Oh my gosh, he did, Yeah, he did, 478 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 2: he did. 479 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 7: And he said that was NLP. 480 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 11: Yeah. 481 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 1: According to Jerry and many reports from the trial, when 482 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 1: Marino answered affirmatively that he had telekinetic powers, the assistant 483 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 1: district attorney turned to the detective next to him. 484 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 2: He gave that answer, and I could hear because I 485 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 2: was standing near council table, and I care, the prosecutor 486 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 2: whispered to the detective sitting next to him. If I 487 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 2: ask you for your gun, don't give it to me. 488 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 1: In other words, the prosecutor knew it was all over. 489 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 1: His star witness had blown it. Jerry's tactic was to 490 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: discredit Marino beyond a reasonable doubt. In his closing argument, 491 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 1: he asked the jury. 492 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 2: Would you buy a used car from James Marino if 493 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 2: you wouldn't buy a used car from him. I don't 494 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 2: think they've convinced you beyond a reasonable doubt that he's credible. 495 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 7: It worked. 496 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: The jury came back with an acquittal less than six 497 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: hours later. 498 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 2: They had an enanmous jury to acquit Richard in the morning, 499 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 2: but they thought if they had been there so long, 500 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 2: the county should at least pay for a lunch. 501 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 1: Bandler was acquitted in nineteen eighty eight. For a while, 502 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 1: he faced a civil suit from Kureen's parents. They blamed 503 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 1: Bandler for the wrongful death of their daughter and asked 504 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 1: for damages. The case was dismissed in two thousand and one. 505 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 7: No one was. 506 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 1: Ever held responsible for Kareen's death. Bandler has consistently maintained 507 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 1: that it was Marino who killed her, and he points 508 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 1: out that Marino, as Kareen's ex boyfriend, had a very 509 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 1: clear motive. In a twenty twenty three documentary called Altered States, 510 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,479 Speaker 1: Bandler explains that he believes Marino had planned it. 511 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 13: I really, on reflection think he planned it because I 512 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 13: mean I was at home, I got a call that 513 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 13: he'd been beaten up at some bar, asked for a 514 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 13: ride home, and when I picked him up, he was 515 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 13: all beat up and he didn't seem to know who 516 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 13: did it, or why they did it or whatever. And 517 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 13: I just took him home and put him on the couch. 518 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 13: Hadn't go to sleep, and he woke me up later 519 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 13: and said he wanted to go to his girlfriend's house 520 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 13: and then went nuts, started tearing the place up, and 521 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 13: came and shot her. 522 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 3: Although Bandler was found not guilty, the trial did damage 523 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:57,600 Speaker 3: his reputation. Steven Gilligan, another early NLP guy, remembers running 524 00:31:57,600 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 3: into an old Bandler mentor around the time of the 525 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,960 Speaker 3: Marger trial. It was family therapist Virginia Seteer, and I. 526 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 14: Said, oh, you heard about Richard, right, And I fully 527 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 14: expected her to be the earth Mother and she said yes, 528 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 14: and you know he did it, don't you. And I 529 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 14: was a little taken aback and mumbled something like, well, 530 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:19,960 Speaker 14: I guess that's why the Jerry decide. She said no, 531 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 14: as she started talking about that it was the fourth 532 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 14: woman that he had held guns to their head. 533 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 3: Bandler admitted to one of these instances a trial, he 534 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 3: testified that he had pointed a gun at one of 535 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 3: his apprentices, Christina Hall, because she was quote going off 536 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 3: emotionally and he wanted her to stop. Satyr told Gilligan 537 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 3: that Bandlor had also held up his ex wife, Leslie Cameron. 538 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 14: It was Leslie Cameron that got Virginia so upset. Leslie 539 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 14: apparently was a very abusive relationship. 540 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 1: Bandler divorced from his first wife, Leslie Cameron in nineteen 541 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 1: eighty one. According Tomultiple news articles from the nineteen eighties, 542 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 1: domestic violence was a factor. Bandler completely denies these claims. 543 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,520 Speaker 13: That's also a lie that she perpetrated so that she 544 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 13: could get a lot of money out of a divorce. 545 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 1: I found an NLP tape where Bandler discusses domestic abuse directly. 546 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,200 Speaker 1: The tape is called Creating Therapeutic Change, and it was 547 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 1: copyrighted for sale in nineteen eighty seven, the same year 548 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:28,200 Speaker 1: of the murder trial. 549 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 5: I mean, you know, if she lets him beat her up, 550 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 5: you know for five years, you know, it's not just 551 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 5: him doing it, because it's these things working systems. All 552 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 5: it takes is the right tonality and she. 553 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,480 Speaker 1: Can get him to hit her Bandler's not talking about 554 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 1: Leslie or anyone specific in this tape, but about the 555 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,959 Speaker 1: types of situations he says result in domestic abuse. 556 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 5: I did a thing for a shelter for abused women, 557 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 5: and you know, I was in near five minutes and 558 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 5: I felt like slapping the shit out of him. You know, 559 00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 5: it's like, change your. 560 00:33:57,920 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 4: Tone of voice, man, you want me. 561 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:01,880 Speaker 11: To help you shut up, or I'll smack your one. 562 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:05,960 Speaker 5: And I mean it was they had the horrid tonality. 563 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,320 Speaker 5: I mean it was like, you know, five dental drills 564 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,239 Speaker 5: coming at you at one time, you know, And I 565 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 5: really had to teach them. Look, if this is the 566 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 5: way you want men to treat you, keep talking this way. 567 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:16,400 Speaker 5: And it was, well, we shouldn't have to change the 568 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 5: light we act, you know, in order to be treated right. 569 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 5: And I said, maybe you shouldn't, but if you keep 570 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 5: acting this way, you're gonna get smacked by me. Now, 571 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 5: do you want to be treated well or not? Do 572 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:27,360 Speaker 5: you want to be hit or do you want to 573 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:28,080 Speaker 5: be treated well? 574 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:30,319 Speaker 3: Which is it? 575 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:33,320 Speaker 1: It's very telling that there are zero women laughing in 576 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: this anecdote. 577 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 3: One of many chilling elements. The course of laughing. 578 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:55,280 Speaker 4: Men basically it was a hideous nipemare. 579 00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,880 Speaker 1: Bandler has said the trial took a toll. After it 580 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 1: was all over, he packed up and left Santa Cruz. 581 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 13: It destroyed me financially, It destroyed my reputation. And it's 582 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 13: not that I couldn't build it up again by doing 583 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,799 Speaker 13: good work, but you know, all I have really tried 584 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,759 Speaker 13: to do is help people, and this just took me 585 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:17,839 Speaker 13: apart in every way imaginable. 586 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 1: So even though Bandler was acquitted, all of the media 587 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:24,120 Speaker 1: coverage was extremely damaging. 588 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 3: People kept flocking to NLP though. I mean even after 589 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,400 Speaker 3: he was bailed out of jail, Bandler was putting on 590 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:32,799 Speaker 3: seminars to cover his legal fees and they were really 591 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:33,520 Speaker 3: well attended. 592 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 1: This is like so weird to me. Do we think 593 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,920 Speaker 1: that there was some rubbernecking aspect to this? 594 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 3: One guy interview said it definitely burnished Bandler's reputation in 595 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:45,879 Speaker 3: the eyes of some people who had, you know, never 596 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,800 Speaker 3: hung out with an accused murderer before and were like, oh, 597 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 3: let me check it out. 598 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:51,279 Speaker 7: People wanted to go. 599 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,960 Speaker 3: People wanted to go. I think partly because there were 600 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 3: all sorts of rumors flying around during the trial that 601 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:00,279 Speaker 3: Bandler was hypnotizing the jury. 602 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:02,400 Speaker 1: That sounds completely false to me. I don't think that 603 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:03,000 Speaker 1: happened at all. 604 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 3: No, I mean a lot of experts will tell you 605 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:09,440 Speaker 3: that it is impossible to turn everyday people into unsuspecting 606 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 3: puppets with hypnosis, But a bunch of Bandler students after 607 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:17,000 Speaker 3: the trial based entire careers on the idea that it 608 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:17,880 Speaker 3: is possible. 609 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:21,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, this idea of mind control has been floating around 610 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:24,839 Speaker 1: our whole podcast, and after the murder trial it really 611 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:25,399 Speaker 1: takes off. 612 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,360 Speaker 3: Over the next couple episodes, we're going to dig into 613 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:32,400 Speaker 3: the world of dark NLP. 614 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:37,279 Speaker 1: People who seek to use NLP for coercion, even exploitation. 615 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:39,840 Speaker 3: Was that real? 616 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:41,399 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's totally reel man. 617 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:43,239 Speaker 8: You know she didn't allow you to hypnotize. 618 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:44,400 Speaker 12: Hi, I did hypnotize it. 619 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:47,840 Speaker 1: That's next time on mind Games. 620 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:05,880 Speaker 3: Mind Games is a Kaleidoscope production in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. 621 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,640 Speaker 3: The series is created and hosted by me Zoe La 622 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,680 Speaker 3: Scoz and Alice Hines. It's produced by writer Alsop and 623 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:17,640 Speaker 3: dar Luk Potts, edited by Kate Osborne, editorial consulting from 624 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:18,839 Speaker 3: Adeza Egan. 625 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:23,200 Speaker 1: Original composition and mixing by Steve Boone. Fact checking by 626 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:30,000 Speaker 1: Aman Whalen from Kaleidoscope. Our executive producers are Oswaloshin, Mangesh Hattigador, 627 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:32,480 Speaker 1: and Kate Osborne from iHeart. 628 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:33,799 Speaker 7: Our executive producers 629 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 1: Are Katrina Norvil and Nikki Etour special thanks to voice 630 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:42,760 Speaker 1: actor Walter Sipser and to Jerry Schwartzbach for reading his lines, 631 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,880 Speaker 1: providing us with court documents, and for his excellent book 632 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,600 Speaker 1: Leaning on the ARC, A Personal history of criminal defense.