WEBVTT - Ep. 558: An Aldo Leopold Blowout Extravaganza 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:13.320 This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:18.599 bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listeningcast. You can't 0:00:18.600 --> 0:00:22.040 predict anything. The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you 0:00:22.079 --> 0:00:25.520 by First Light. Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, 0:00:25.600 --> 0:00:28.880 or scouting for el, First Light has performance apparel to 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:31.960 support every hunter in every environment. Check it out at 0:00:32.000 --> 0:00:35.199 first light dot com. F I R S T L 0:00:35.320 --> 0:00:40.839 I T E dot com. All Right, everybody, it's an 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:46.880 Aldo Leopold blowout. I'm looking around the room. 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:48.040 I don't know about that branding. 0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:54.400 When we had babies, we'd say they had a blowout, 0:00:54.480 --> 0:00:58.720 if you know, yeah, it would kind of I'll tell them. 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:00.920 We were celebrating my boys for birthday the other night 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:03.160 and I was saying, everybody's kind of sharing a memory, 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:04.520 and I said, the thing I remember about you is 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:07.280 when you're a little baby, looking and seeing how you 0:01:07.440 --> 0:01:11.000 had a kind of a brownish yellow streak on your 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:14.440 onesie above your diaper line. Oh yeah, going up the back, 0:01:14.480 --> 0:01:16.160 and we called a blowout. And I'd be like, and 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:19.440 I would see that and I'd be like, man, I 0:01:19.480 --> 0:01:26.120 was like, that's my memory. Uh two huge, So there's 0:01:26.160 --> 0:01:27.839 like a there's like a what's your problem, Doug. 0:01:29.560 --> 0:01:31.240 It's just an interesting way of starting. 0:01:31.480 --> 0:01:37.560 Bubby bubbly Doug. Durn's here expressing disapproval already, and we're joining. 0:01:37.880 --> 0:01:41.920 We're joined by uh doctor Carl Malcolm. Uh. These are 0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:46.800 both longtime veterans of the show, joined by Randall is here, 0:01:46.920 --> 0:01:50.000 Brody's here, Giannis is here, and we're gonna we're celebrating, 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:52.680 and we're gonna we're gonna explain why it warrants celebration. 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:59.880 We're celebrating two sort of Elder Leopold anniversaries. One is 0:01:59.880 --> 0:02:02.160 like a real one. One's a big one because the 0:02:02.160 --> 0:02:06.200 centennial one hundred year anniversary of the Heat the Wilderness Area, 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:07.520 which is our first wilderness area. 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:08.040 Yep. 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:13.080 And just to throw it in there, the seventy fifth anniversary, 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:17.120 I don't know, is that legit? 0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:17.880 That's legit? 0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:28.000 I don't like fifty ten, fifty one hundred is seventy five? 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:30.640 Oh yeah, there celebrates seventy fifth anniversary. 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:32.880 All the time, Diamond, I was gonna say, man, if 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:35.240 you were married seventy five years, you sure as he'll 0:02:35.280 --> 0:02:36.079 be celebrating. 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:39.240 Hell yeah, well I'd be celebrating how long I've been alive. 0:02:43.560 --> 0:02:47.400 The seventy fifth year is known as the Diamond. 0:02:47.000 --> 0:02:48.000 And Diamond July. 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:50.320 All right, so it's legit. I questioned it all along. 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:52.639 I never had any hesitation that we were going to 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:54.880 do a thing because and I'm gonna tell you why. 0:02:58.360 --> 0:03:04.640 If you're gonna do a mount rush more of American 0:03:04.680 --> 0:03:14.720 conservation leaders, you'd put Roosevelt, You'd put Roosevelt on it. 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:18.360 But Roosevelt was you know, he was he was a 0:03:18.360 --> 0:03:21.400 political figure, right, he did things outside of politics. He 0:03:21.440 --> 0:03:25.200 was a political figure. He would go on it. And 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:28.720 the second one, you'd have to stop and think about 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:33.600 three and four. The second one would absolutely be Eldo Leopold. 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:41.640 Like like Roosevelt shape so much policy from the buldy pulpit, right, 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:45.760 But Eldo Leopold is sort of the philosophical He's the 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:53.000 philosophical father, the philosophical founder of American conservation in that 0:03:53.720 --> 0:03:56.120 he was like he talked about things that are still 0:03:56.160 --> 0:03:59.000 relevant now. Roosevelt talked a lot about a lot of 0:03:59.040 --> 0:04:04.080 things that became He like this helped solve a lot 0:04:04.080 --> 0:04:05.400 of problems that got solved. 0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:06.600 Right. 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:09.960 One of his first battles was against market like, you know, 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:16.679 market hunting of waterfowl, market hunting of uh feathered birds, 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:20.160 shore birds, right, like, real things that were real issues, 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:23.839 and they solved them. And then Aldo Leopold came along 0:04:23.960 --> 0:04:27.880 and talked about He framed up all the discussions we're 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:28.640 still having today. 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:33.520 I would argue, I would agree with you completely. 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:37.000 Here's some Eldo Leopold. We're gonna then we're gonna do 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:38.920 our normal thing and talk about a couple of extra things. 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:42.720 But here's some Eldo Leopold quotes. Unfortunately, these are ranked 0:04:42.720 --> 0:04:49.960 by likes. I'm on Goodreads, which I like that. I 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:53.040 like the good Reads that will compile quotes from authors. 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:56.479 You'll find that all of these I believe all of 0:04:56.520 --> 0:05:00.880 these quotes are from Oh we never explained anniversary of 0:05:00.920 --> 0:05:03.320 the publication of what I would regard to be the 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:08.960 most influential piece of conservation writing ever in that it 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:11.840 still maintains relevance today. Yeah, when you read, Just to 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:15.440 keep this Roosevelt Leopold thing set up. Now, No, Leopold 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:18.440 was a private person. Leopold was a forester, he was 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:21.200 a land manager, he was an agency person. 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:22.280 You know. 0:05:22.480 --> 0:05:25.200 Roosevelt was a governor in a president. So we're comparing 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:27.600 apples and oranges. But if you said to people, name 0:05:27.680 --> 0:05:30.200 a great conservations, they're going to go Roosevelt. Be like, 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:32.440 name a second one, They're going to go Elo, Leopold, 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:34.400 And then three they're gonna be like, I don't know, uh, 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:38.839 Desert Solitaire. You know, I don't know where they go 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:42.919 with number three. The general public. But his book A 0:05:43.000 --> 0:05:45.800 Sand County Almanac, which is a collection of his writing, 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:50.120 maintains relevant today. When you go read Roosevelt today, you're 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:55.479 reading Roosevelt kind of like like a hobby historian. You know, 0:05:55.920 --> 0:05:57.800 you're sort of reading it to find out about a 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:01.760 long time ago. When you read a San Connie Almanac, 0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:04.919 you're you're reading it and finding out. You're reading it 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:07.480 and being like, holy, this could have been written yesterday 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:11.560 and it would still be relevant. 0:06:11.839 --> 0:06:15.800 Wow, Steve, I am really happy to hear you read 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:17.599 all this. So you guys, I'm not reading this. I 0:06:17.600 --> 0:06:18.400 mean say all this. 0:06:18.839 --> 0:06:21.680 That well, you know, I was before we started recording. 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:24.960 I was pointing out that he was fathered by first cousins, 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:29.240 and I was pointing out that he would take insanely 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:31.600 long shots with the trad bow at deer just to 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:34.800 kind of see what would happen. So Doug thought I 0:06:34.839 --> 0:06:35.919 was going to sit here and hack. 0:06:35.720 --> 0:06:36.440 On different. 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:41.119 You're not confusing that with some with like Art Young 0:06:41.600 --> 0:06:42.560 in Saxon. 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:45.080 Poell, Leopold would take some hail Mary's. I think he 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:46.919 had basically to see what would happen. 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:48.000 You think what? 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:49.719 I think he admitted to it. I think he talked 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:50.000 about it. 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:53.960 He'd take his recurve and cockback and you know, hold 0:06:54.040 --> 0:06:56.680 like eight deer bodies high and take a seventy five 0:06:56.760 --> 0:06:57.400 yard winger. 0:06:57.640 --> 0:07:00.040 Oh well, everybody in the room, raise your hand. I 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:04.680 have not done that. Yeah, you've never launched one at 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:05.880 a deer with a recurve. 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:07.400 What would have happened? 0:07:08.320 --> 0:07:08.480 No? 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:10.120 Never? 0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:11.520 And Phil has it either. 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:14.000 Well, I don't bow hunt, so I never really had 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:14.800 that opportunity. 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:18.280 Here's some quotes, and again these are ranked accurse. These 0:07:18.280 --> 0:07:24.200 are These are listed according to rankings one and seventy three. 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:30.520 People who frequent goodreads dot Com like this one. I 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:35.000 am glad I will not be young in a future 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:43.520 without wilderness. I'm picking here. Here's another one that's that's so, 0:07:43.600 --> 0:07:46.080 then that's his number one. Then the next one down 0:07:46.120 --> 0:07:50.000 the line has a thousand less likes. That's too complicated 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:56.120 for people. Here's a famous one. There are two spiritual 0:07:56.240 --> 0:07:59.960 dangers and not owning a farm. One is the day 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:04.040 of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery, and the 0:08:04.160 --> 0:08:10.400 other that heat comes from the furnace. There's another one. 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:15.320 Conservation is getting nowhere because it is incompatible with our 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:21.720 Abrahamic concept of land. We abuse land because we we 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:26.840 abuse land because we regard it as a commodity belonging 0:08:26.880 --> 0:08:30.880 to us. When we see land as a community to 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:34.200 which we belong, we may begin to use it with 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:40.680 love and respect. Here's another one. I would apply this 0:08:40.720 --> 0:08:43.640 to someone taking a Hail Mary with his beau. He says, 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:47.560 ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one 0:08:47.600 --> 0:08:52.720 else is watching, even when doing the wrong thing is 0:08:52.800 --> 0:09:02.760 legal to those of void of imagination. A blank place 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:06.720 on the map is a useless waste to others the 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:09.280 most valuable part. 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:13.120 I feel like the first quote that you read had 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:16.080 more to it, Like isn't there a follow up to 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:18.600 that that has something about like what good is it 0:09:18.640 --> 0:09:22.199 without like places on a map to explore. 0:09:22.559 --> 0:09:26.320 Weak you have to take it up with good. Yeah, 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:27.880 you're right, you have to take it up with good. 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:29.720 Reads, right, But that's a part of that same quote, 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:30.120 isn't it. 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:34.160 There's none that he refers to the value of wilderness 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:35.880 and wildness in a number of these quotes. 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:38.560 But that's what makes I mean, we're all clear that 0:09:38.600 --> 0:09:42.040 what makes a quote is you've pulled it, like Twain 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:49.679 didn't publish published one sentences, but he published bugs. Then 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:52.200 a feller goes in there and pulls out the quotes 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:56.559 like it's all contextual. It's surrounded by a whole damn book. 0:09:56.800 --> 0:09:58.959 But Yanni's mentioning there are some quotes that are in 0:09:59.000 --> 0:10:03.280 a similar vein, and what he's referencing is a slight 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:06.440 tweak on the quote that you shared. That's also from Leopold, 0:10:06.640 --> 0:10:09.000 and in a similar kind of line of thought. He 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:12.800 talks about the idea of what avails our forty freedoms 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:15.240 without a young place, without a wild place to be 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:15.640 young in. 0:10:16.760 --> 0:10:22.640 That's right, Like winds and sunsets, wild things were taken 0:10:22.679 --> 0:10:27.640 for granted until progress began to do away with them. 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:31.480 Now we face the question whether a still higher standard 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:36.400 of living is worth its cost in things natural, wild 0:10:36.559 --> 0:10:41.680 and free for us of the minority, the opportunity to 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:49.360 see geese is more important than television. Here's one on 0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:54.640 land management cease being intimidated by the argument that a 0:10:54.760 --> 0:10:59.479 right action is impossible because it does not yield maximum profits, 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:05.200 or that a wrong action is to be condoned because 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:05.760 it pays. 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:13.839 Here's one that I like farmer as a conservationist. When 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:16.520 land does well for its owner and the owner does 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:21.920 well by his land, when both end up better by 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:24.679 reason of their partnership, we have conservation. 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:26.720 We hit to hit me with that one again. 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:30.600 When land does well for its owner and the owner 0:11:30.640 --> 0:11:34.520 does well by his land, when both end up better 0:11:34.600 --> 0:11:37.760 by reason of their partnership, we have conservation. 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:41.720 There you go. That's that's that's very close to it. 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:47.760 Doug during quote Well, indeed, well, no, that's a Doug 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:52.439 during great You will say, I see what the farmer 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:54.880 gets out of it. I see what the hunter gets 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:56.959 out of it, But what does the land get out 0:11:56.960 --> 0:11:57.120 of it? 0:11:57.240 --> 0:12:01.280 Yeah? Your memory never ceases to amaze me. 0:12:03.080 --> 0:12:06.800 Doug Durn Also another favorite quote of mind. Doug Durn said, 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:11.800 when when he was conjuring other people, if the kids 0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:15.080 are gonna hunt, I'm gonna hunt. 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:19.120 In reference to youth season. 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:22.280 In reference to when when they put it to the concert, 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:24.679 when they put it to the Wisconsin when they put 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:30.120 it to Wisconsin voters, do you support expanding youth turkey 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:35.000 from two days to four days? And simultaneously, do you 0:12:35.559 --> 0:12:40.160 support expanding youth deer season from two days to four days? 0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:46.800 They voted like a slim majority in favor of expanding 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:50.280 youth Turkey, which I'm going to hire lobbyists to work on, 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:57.040 and they had a minority in support of expanding youth deer. 0:12:57.360 --> 0:12:59.679 And Doug and if this process plays out of a 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:03.000 gold with these meetings, and Doug was imagining going to 0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:06.320 the meeting and was imagining the man who would stand 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:09.599 up and beat the table and say, if the kids. 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:13.200 Are going on? She did not have to imagine that guy. 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:19.319 Many of those guys exist that. Let me tell you 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:22.560 who likes youth season. Let's tell you who likes it 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:23.120 people with. 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:27.199 Kids, well, and kids like under sixteen years of age? 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:29.520 Yeah, And who doesn't like youth season? 0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:31.280 People without kids. 0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:35.000 Sure, there's there's an area of that. There's like an 0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:39.000 area of wildlife law. And I was trying to explain this. 0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:44.280 We're working on our next Close Calls edition, which has 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:46.760 these sort of like transformative stories in it. But anyways, 0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:53.240 there's there's an area of wildlife law. I'm a juxtaposed 0:13:53.240 --> 0:13:55.760 two types of wildlife law. There's an area there's an 0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:57.880 area of wildlife law where there's sort of a moral 0:13:57.960 --> 0:14:03.840 basis right where you'll look at certain questions and it'll 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:07.080 be like, well, clearly that's the right thing, like shooting 0:14:07.559 --> 0:14:10.360 a sow with cubs or something like that. Sure like 0:14:10.559 --> 0:14:13.319 it's like that. There's there's things that almost have like 0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:18.040 biblical reference about like like like waste okay, like and 0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:20.960 and uh like to take the most classic example. You know, 0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:25.480 it's generally been understood for a long time, like murdering 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:30.880 your brethren is bad right in the Ten Commandments. It's 0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:33.880 generally you find this prohibition around the world. We now 0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:36.160 have very specific laws about it. But you look and 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:39.560 be like, oh, yeah, of course wildlife law I think 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:43.160 has some of that. You know, the people would look 0:14:43.160 --> 0:14:45.000 and be like, oh, yeah, that's got to be illegal. 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:47.040 You just went shot a whole herd of elk and 0:14:47.080 --> 0:14:48.760 has left them laying out the rot in the sun. 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:51.360 That ought to be illegal. Seems like that be illegal. 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:54.800 But then you have areas of wildlife law that are Uh, 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:59.080 wind up, there's no moral background, and it winds up 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:01.840 being argued by who stands to gain the most. I'll 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:03.800 point out that I think I feel like the corner 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:07.680 crossing debate sits outside of morality. People that want to 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:09.440 be able to cross corners are people that want to 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:11.600 go into those areas. People that don't want you to 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:13.200 be able to cross corners are people that don't want 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:15.600 you going into those areas. There's no like, there's no 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:20.040 one coming and saying like I have the moral high ground. 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:24.680 And uh was talking about oh the youth season thing. Yeah, 0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:27.480 there's no like more, you know what I mean. It's 0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:30.880 like everybody's just jockeying for their own interests. Man on 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:34.560 a bashing damn kids an opportunity away from me. Well, 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:36.720 we had a guy right in. Were you here for 0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:39.880 that guy that wrote in why He's like sure? Pat 0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:43.520 Dirkin writes an article about it's the same old story 0:15:43.520 --> 0:15:45.800 you see all the time, Like during COVID is all 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:48.600 the articles like oh these people hunting fishing. Now there's 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:51.840 all these articles. No one's going hunting and fishing. Wisconsin's 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:53.600 losing all their deer hunters. It's like and you're looking 0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:57.760 and be like, okay, like a demonstrable decline, but you 0:15:57.800 --> 0:16:02.960 know it's the same up down that has always existed. Anyways. 0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:04.760 The guy writes in well, I'll tell you and he 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:07.440 writes it a piss He signs it a pissed off 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:10.640 Michigan hunter. He wrote in being like, I'll tell you 0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:17.000 why no one's hunting deer anymore because kids seasons, kids 0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:19.520 kill all the big bucks. And he calls it what 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:23.320 was his term for, like the the big hunt. Yeah, 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:26.200 before the big hunt, the big hunt, like the big 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:29.920 hunt in his mind, his general firearm. And he says, 0:16:29.960 --> 0:16:32.600 by the time the big hunt happens, they're all dead. 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:33.720 Everything's dead. 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:35.120 Now. 0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:38.000 You got this season and you got that season. 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:41.040 And then the kid say it's not the kids shooting them, 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:42.640 it's the kid's dad shooting. 0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:43.600 Oh yeah, oh. 0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:45.840 Yeah, because there's a kid there in diapers with his picture, 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:48.480 you know, six or five creed more or something in 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:49.520 a big giant buck. 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:51.520 And yeah, and like in say anthing with Doug, like 0:16:51.520 --> 0:16:53.840 if the kids are gonna hunt, I'm gonna hunt, and 0:16:53.960 --> 0:16:57.560 you season, here's my take. I'm gonna hunt. So you 0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:05.600 kids start un well, this is nothing new to your ass. 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:07.480 Speaking the cup of extra days. 0:17:07.240 --> 0:17:09.600 And it is fun going out with kids. 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:14.040 Man, I love it. But yeah, I'm like, I'm I'm 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:15.720 I'm not like, Well, let me know when you want 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:20.919 to wake up. I'm up. Everybody else, Get up, get up, 0:17:20.920 --> 0:17:25.080 get up, away back. Okay, so oh, a quick warning. 0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:30.560 But guy wrote in two things. If don't go to 0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:34.200 audible dot com and buy a Sand County Almanac, here's 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:36.800 a problem you guys at the Elder Leopold Foundation need 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:40.720 to figure out. Hmm, I just downloaded. This is a 0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:44.159 guy writing it. I just downloaded the only copy of 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:48.600 a Sand County Almanac available on audible. He'd already read 0:17:48.600 --> 0:17:53.320 his hard copy several times. Okay, he says, imagine my 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:56.320 discuss when I realized someone has added what amounts to 0:17:56.359 --> 0:18:00.760 a politically charged high school essay as an introduction, as 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:03.480 well as removing the whole second portion of the book. 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:06.879 Nowhere in the description does it say that it's an 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:12.119 abridged version, with a I haven't listened to it and 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:14.760 apparently questionable the introduction. 0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:19.600 The introduction is part of the book that's currently published. 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:24.480 It's written by a Pulitzer Prize winning essay asked Barbara Kingsoliver. Right, Yeah, 0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:27.240 that's what's Yeah, there's a couple of people that are 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:30.240 upset about the politics of the intro, which I think 0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:31.120 is actually. 0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:33.119 I thought that was highly I thought that that choice 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:35.280 of an intro was highly questionable. 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:36.920 It's not a bad intro. 0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:40.439 I've read her work. Yeah, I just really felt that 0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:43.280 that was a bad move. Yeah, I mean I could. 0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:45.280 See what it's one of those things and not to interrupt, 0:18:45.280 --> 0:18:47.840 but it's one of those things where like she mentions 0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:52.200 the fact that people disagree about climate change and this 0:18:52.240 --> 0:18:54.879 and that, but she takes a pretty even handed approach 0:18:54.920 --> 0:18:55.119 to it. 0:18:55.119 --> 0:18:55.560 I don't know what. 0:18:56.680 --> 0:18:58.160 That's not how I would have had right the intro. 0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:02.560 Oh No, I mean it's an interesting choice for sure. Nonetheless, 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:04.840 I've seen several people. I looked at the comments on 0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:07.560 Audible after reading this email, and there's a lot of 0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:10.560 people that claim it's a high school book report. 0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:14.399 It's just like, eh, but as a part of the 0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:15.360 book missing. 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:17.720 Yeah, that seems to be. There's like ten or so 0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:19.800 people that make the same claim. 0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:23.480 So the sketches here and there part they say. 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:26.159 It's like a chunk out of the middle. 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:29.200 Well, that would be the middle it's really three parts. Yeah, 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:32.720 Carl and I of course have old copyright, don't have 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:35.000 the intro. Yeah, his is signed by one of the 0:19:35.080 --> 0:19:35.919 Leopold kids. 0:19:36.520 --> 0:19:38.879 Okay, so anyways, you guys got to figure that out. 0:19:39.119 --> 0:19:43.520 Yeah at theold Yeah, once you get someone to read 0:19:43.520 --> 0:19:47.920 the sum bitch, do like a proper version. Put it 0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:48.520 on audible. 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:52.520 I'll work on that, please. I have an idea. You know, 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:55.480 there are no recordings of Leopold's voice. 0:19:56.359 --> 0:19:58.480 Hmm, there aren't. So you can't do an ai him. 0:19:58.640 --> 0:20:02.440 No, you can't him. But I listened to both Kurt 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:06.680 Mighty and Stan Temple, who held Leopold's position at the 0:20:06.760 --> 0:20:09.560 University of Wisconsin, talk about Leopold, and if you close 0:20:09.600 --> 0:20:13.159 your eyes when Stan Temple's talking, you kind of feel 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:14.040 like you're in the presence. 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:15.119 He'd be a good guy to read it. 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:16.040 I think he would be. 0:20:16.720 --> 0:20:19.160 I would agree with that. The current We also bought 0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:22.080 it on audible and the narration was not great. 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:25.640 Yeah, that's what I also picked that up from the comments. 0:20:26.320 --> 0:20:28.080 I didn't go so far as to buy it, so. 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:30.440 I can't really speak to that, but understood you put 0:20:30.480 --> 0:20:31.600 on your company card, Randall. 0:20:32.359 --> 0:20:33.440 I don't have a company card. 0:20:34.560 --> 0:20:39.840 Maybe Chili can put it on his company card for you. Okay, 0:20:39.880 --> 0:20:42.560 we have Okay. A long time ago, we did a 0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:46.239 special drop episode. I think it was called we had 0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:47.840 when Renee Cross came out. 0:20:49.080 --> 0:20:57.240 The title of that was, come on, Phil, good Lord, 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:02.120 where did you come from? 0:21:02.320 --> 0:21:07.240 Yeah, Karin's sitting in here, Karen's on the floor. 0:21:09.800 --> 0:21:11.920 Title for this episode. 0:21:12.560 --> 0:21:13.760 Back in the old days, that would have been the 0:21:13.800 --> 0:21:16.680 title on the floor. Back in the old days, when 0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:21.120 we had titles that told you nothing, what was it called? 0:21:21.400 --> 0:21:23.639 Are you bitter about them? 0:21:23.880 --> 0:21:24.040 Yeah? 0:21:24.080 --> 0:21:27.520 I'm bitter about it. When we had to switch when 0:21:27.560 --> 0:21:29.760 you switch titlings so people could tell by the title 0:21:29.800 --> 0:21:32.760 what it might be about. Yeah, I remember we had 0:21:32.800 --> 0:21:40.440 an episode of call it an Object in Its Shadows. 0:21:41.040 --> 0:21:42.760 You look at it like, what the hell's that supposed 0:21:42.760 --> 0:21:43.120 to be about? 0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:44.520 Listen to that? 0:21:44.720 --> 0:21:46.200 Yeah, it's like an easter egg. 0:21:46.280 --> 0:21:46.399 Hut. 0:21:46.440 --> 0:21:49.680 You got to figure out where they got the title from. Yeah, 0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:54.919 I explained it at the very end. I explained with the 0:21:54.960 --> 0:21:58.000 concept of an object in its shadow. Now that I 0:21:58.000 --> 0:21:59.719 brought it up, I'll just point out it means like 0:22:02.160 --> 0:22:06.120 I'll splay a smart time it takes too long from 0:22:06.160 --> 0:22:10.399 bass to blue Water yeah, Okay. A while back, me 0:22:10.480 --> 0:22:12.560 and Janni had in we did a appis. We did 0:22:12.800 --> 0:22:14.840 an extra drop, so a Friday drop? Did it? A 0:22:14.840 --> 0:22:15.360 Friday drop? 0:22:15.440 --> 0:22:15.680 Krinn? 0:22:17.000 --> 0:22:17.760 Yeah, Thursday? 0:22:18.600 --> 0:22:21.640 Whatever the hell? An extra drop called from bassa Blue Water. 0:22:21.680 --> 0:22:25.000 We had in a guest Renee Cross. As we explained 0:22:25.000 --> 0:22:28.960 back then, I became friends. Renee Cross owned Cypress Cove 0:22:29.080 --> 0:22:34.280 Marina in Venice, Louisiana. There's kind of like two marinas. 0:22:34.280 --> 0:22:38.239 There's a big, huge marina. I don't mean to knock it, 0:22:38.280 --> 0:22:40.440 but it's like very like a very touristy marina of 0:22:40.440 --> 0:22:42.840 the Venice Marina, and then there's Cypress Cove Marine, which 0:22:42.840 --> 0:22:47.280 is a smaller kind of I don't know, more intimate marina. 0:22:48.200 --> 0:22:49.679 We would I've been down there. I've been going down 0:22:49.720 --> 0:22:52.040 there to spearfish last few years, and we hunted ducks 0:22:52.040 --> 0:22:57.240 down there and did some filming down there. The owner 0:22:57.240 --> 0:22:59.800 of the marina came up one day and introduced himself 0:22:59.800 --> 0:23:02.280 to me while we're cleaning fish, and that was Renee Cross. 0:23:02.280 --> 0:23:04.440 And as we explained the special drop, I just became 0:23:04.520 --> 0:23:07.439 friendly with Renee Cross and we started coming up with 0:23:07.440 --> 0:23:10.040 this idea of doing a sort of a like a 0:23:10.119 --> 0:23:15.679 takeover of Cypress Coved Marina in October, and we have 0:23:15.720 --> 0:23:18.760 a thing called Meat Eater Experiences, and so we lined up. 0:23:18.840 --> 0:23:21.760 So we're starting out with we lined up two mediatter experiences. 0:23:21.840 --> 0:23:26.920 One is a waterfowl hunting Kansas in cooperation with foul Planes. 0:23:27.200 --> 0:23:32.520 So we're gonna have like Yanni's gonna for the times 0:23:32.520 --> 0:23:35.640 we're there, Yani's gonna be there. I'm gonna hunt there 0:23:35.800 --> 0:23:39.639 for a while. A couple of turns, Brent Reeves, Clay 0:23:40.160 --> 0:23:42.080 cal I don't know who all the hell is gonna 0:23:42.080 --> 0:23:42.399 be down there. 0:23:42.440 --> 0:23:43.120 There's one more. 0:23:43.200 --> 0:23:46.000 You got five out of six. I can't think who 0:23:46.040 --> 0:23:46.600 the six is. 0:23:46.800 --> 0:23:49.399 But bunch of people going there at foul planes. Now 0:23:49.440 --> 0:23:54.840 foul planes, they're already a waterfowl guide. We're taking time 0:23:54.920 --> 0:23:58.639 there to kind of make our own curriculum at foul planes. Okay, 0:23:58.960 --> 0:24:01.640 so you'll still go. And how many days of hunting? 0:24:01.640 --> 0:24:02.480 Is it? Three days of hunting? 0:24:02.600 --> 0:24:02.840 Yes? 0:24:03.119 --> 0:24:05.320 Yeah, three days of hunting because you can only transport 0:24:05.680 --> 0:24:08.440 three day limited birds. So they kind of do waterfowl 0:24:08.520 --> 0:24:10.720 hunts three days because you can have You could kill 0:24:10.760 --> 0:24:13.199 limits all three days and still go home. So what 0:24:13.240 --> 0:24:16.320 we're gonna do is the way it normally works is 0:24:16.400 --> 0:24:19.000 like you know, you go there, people clean your birds whatever, 0:24:19.080 --> 0:24:21.200 out of sight, you go have a cocktail. We're gonna 0:24:21.280 --> 0:24:23.639 kind of change the format up. We're gonna we're gonna 0:24:23.680 --> 0:24:25.720 hunt together, but we're also gonna do a lot of 0:24:25.720 --> 0:24:30.280 stuff around cleaning, food prep, nighttime entertainment, do trivia stuff, 0:24:30.920 --> 0:24:35.960 do some different lessons on waterfowl and lectures on waterfowl 0:24:36.000 --> 0:24:40.680 and make it a more educational experience and just more 0:24:40.720 --> 0:24:42.399 hanging out and really fill it out. So we have 0:24:42.520 --> 0:24:44.359 that with foul planes, and those are all happening in 0:24:44.400 --> 0:24:48.600 December and January. Okay, there's still some spots left there, 0:24:48.640 --> 0:24:52.880 and that's hunting waterfowl at Kansas. Hunting waterfowl in Kansas 0:24:53.040 --> 0:24:57.880 with foul planes with the Meat Eater Crew. Cypress Coved 0:24:57.880 --> 0:25:01.080 Marina trip is in October. Now. The reason we went 0:25:01.119 --> 0:25:03.280 with October is because October is kind of like an 0:25:03.359 --> 0:25:07.560 unsung time down there where the fishing is absolutely spectacular, 0:25:07.600 --> 0:25:10.439 but the sort of summer rush is laying off, and 0:25:10.480 --> 0:25:13.400 we're taking over the whole Cypress Cove Marina. 0:25:13.960 --> 0:25:15.760 From October fourth to the sixteen. 0:25:15.880 --> 0:25:20.359 October four to sixteen, So we're gonna come down and fish. 0:25:20.400 --> 0:25:22.120 We got a lot of guys from the crew coming 0:25:22.160 --> 0:25:23.600 down to fish. We got a lot of friends coming 0:25:23.640 --> 0:25:25.959 down to fish. We're gonna go down and fish, and 0:25:26.000 --> 0:25:31.160 you can go in and book trips, so it's all 0:25:31.280 --> 0:25:33.560 like when you book the trips, it's all your lodging. 0:25:34.640 --> 0:25:37.120 We have a ton of guides lined up because there's 0:25:37.119 --> 0:25:39.440 a lot of guides that fish out of Cypress Cove Marina, 0:25:39.480 --> 0:25:41.760 that run their own businesses out of Cypress Clost Marina. 0:25:41.960 --> 0:25:44.879 We took those guides and booked those guides for the 0:25:44.920 --> 0:25:48.240 time that we're there. And the cool thing about Cypress 0:25:48.240 --> 0:25:50.480 Cove Marina is you're sitting in Venice, Louisiana, so you 0:25:50.560 --> 0:25:54.800 have an amazing inshore fishery and then right there the 0:25:55.200 --> 0:25:58.120 continental shelf is twenty miles away. So when you're sitting 0:25:58.119 --> 0:25:59.880 there at Cypress Cove Marina, this is no joke. You've 0:25:59.880 --> 0:26:04.320 got guys launching bass boats to go fish largemouth bass. 0:26:04.400 --> 0:26:08.360 They're going upriver and like literally right next to them 0:26:08.560 --> 0:26:11.320 are people gearing up to go out for bluefin, tuna 0:26:11.359 --> 0:26:15.080 and mahi. It's like that crunch together. You got guys 0:26:15.080 --> 0:26:19.840 fishing bluefish, calffish. You got guys doing tons of redfish, 0:26:20.359 --> 0:26:24.240 speckled sea trout. We go down there for red snapper, 0:26:24.480 --> 0:26:27.040 we go down there for what they down there called 0:26:27.359 --> 0:26:33.920 lemon fish or kobia. It's just like it is the 0:26:33.960 --> 0:26:38.119 greatest fishing I would say globally of everywhere I've been, 0:26:38.160 --> 0:26:41.480 it is the greatest fishing spot I've ever been to. 0:26:42.080 --> 0:26:44.200 It's what I mean, like I love Alaska, it's just better. 0:26:44.240 --> 0:26:46.320 I mean, like the fishing is just better than Alaska. 0:26:46.359 --> 0:26:50.120 There's so much more to do. So we have when 0:26:50.119 --> 0:26:54.080 Renee Cross came on. When Renee Cross came on and 0:26:54.119 --> 0:26:57.320 talked about it, we weren't like the seats weren't We 0:26:57.359 --> 0:27:00.640 hadn't opened availability to book yet. It was just kind 0:27:00.680 --> 0:27:03.359 of a precursor to the whole thing. But it's open 0:27:03.400 --> 0:27:06.159 to booking to go and get trips to come to 0:27:06.200 --> 0:27:10.040 Cypress Cove. Fish with us, clean fish with us, eat 0:27:10.080 --> 0:27:12.840 cage and food at night. It's gonna be a great time. 0:27:12.880 --> 0:27:15.639 And like you're doing like guided fishing, so you're gonna do. 0:27:16.040 --> 0:27:18.800 You got three fish days you're gonna do in short 0:27:18.840 --> 0:27:21.320 and off shore. We'll be swapping out and jumping on 0:27:21.359 --> 0:27:23.720 the different boats. We'll be hanging out at night we'll 0:27:23.720 --> 0:27:26.240 be cleaning fish together. We'll get all your fish packaged 0:27:26.280 --> 0:27:29.040 up so you bring your fish home recipe ready. They'll 0:27:29.080 --> 0:27:33.000 be educational, be a ton of fun. Booking is available. 0:27:33.600 --> 0:27:36.040 Now, are you going to tell a couple of good 0:27:36.080 --> 0:27:38.560 stories while we're hanging out after cleaning fish. 0:27:38.640 --> 0:27:41.120 I'm gonna tell some great stories, and I'll be able 0:27:41.119 --> 0:27:43.440 to tell the stories I would never tell on air. 0:27:44.640 --> 0:27:49.240 Bumped Doug. Doug teld me a really good story I 0:27:49.280 --> 0:27:50.960 can't tell on Oh. I got a number of stories 0:27:51.000 --> 0:27:52.640 I've heard from Doug that I can't tell on air. 0:27:52.680 --> 0:27:54.720 I came home and he told me a funny one. 0:27:55.160 --> 0:27:59.880 I came home and shared it widely. I would get done, people, 0:28:00.080 --> 0:28:00.760 that's not funny. 0:28:02.400 --> 0:28:03.800 That's my favorite kind of story. 0:28:04.160 --> 0:28:06.920 It has to do with your little health scare. Oh, 0:28:07.359 --> 0:28:13.240 I thought I like that story. I thought it was 0:28:13.240 --> 0:28:18.200 a delightful. Dude, I heard I heard a turkey hunting 0:28:18.280 --> 0:28:20.520 story the other day that I vowed I like, I 0:28:20.560 --> 0:28:23.040 can't like, I really can't tell it on air. Yeah, 0:28:23.280 --> 0:28:25.119 I heard a turkey story the other day. That's just 0:28:25.160 --> 0:28:29.359 my new, absolute favorite story. You know, when you go 0:28:29.400 --> 0:28:31.920 to some comedy clubs where they tell like racy humor. 0:28:31.920 --> 0:28:32.960 And now they got that thing where you got to 0:28:33.000 --> 0:28:36.239 put your phone in that bag. When we do this 0:28:36.280 --> 0:28:39.320 Cypress Cove deal, I'm gonna get some of those bags 0:28:42.280 --> 0:28:44.720 and put your phone in one of these bags. So 0:28:44.720 --> 0:28:47.680 I'm gonna tell you a turkey hunting story. 0:28:48.560 --> 0:28:52.920 If you're going to tell me those other stories about yeah, 0:28:53.160 --> 0:28:56.480 well that one. You know, there were a couple of 0:28:56.520 --> 0:28:58.960 others that you that you know that I'd rather you 0:28:59.040 --> 0:29:01.640 didn't share, or that someone might hit record. 0:29:02.200 --> 0:29:02.360 Here. 0:29:02.400 --> 0:29:05.960 Let me tell you a quick version. I'm not gonna 0:29:06.160 --> 0:29:09.600 just don't even chime in. Okay, dog Doug had to 0:29:09.640 --> 0:29:12.400 have a battery of tests done and he came back 0:29:12.480 --> 0:29:16.600 with a and like the doctor calls him okay, And 0:29:16.760 --> 0:29:18.960 Doug wound up having a false positive, which is not 0:29:19.000 --> 0:29:22.320 a false positive you want. And they called and go, hey, 0:29:22.360 --> 0:29:23.840 we have your results, and Doug's like, oh, I'm sitting 0:29:23.840 --> 0:29:26.120 here with my wife. I'll put her on a speakerphone 0:29:28.600 --> 0:29:31.840 because she's real concerned about my health, you know, like 0:29:31.880 --> 0:29:33.720 the follow on as one would. 0:29:35.200 --> 0:29:35.440 Phone. 0:29:35.440 --> 0:29:41.480 And he's like, well, Doug, you're blank came back positive, 0:29:43.520 --> 0:29:45.800 to which Trish is like, what. 0:29:48.480 --> 0:29:52.400 Made for a really interesting weekend While waiting for how 0:29:52.440 --> 0:29:56.600 long did I sorted out? Well, the interesting thing about 0:29:56.640 --> 0:30:00.240 it was that we both then kind of had well, 0:30:00.280 --> 0:30:07.600 you know, before we were married, kind of talks. It 0:30:07.720 --> 0:30:11.200 was uh, yeah, no, it was. It was a Monday, 0:30:11.280 --> 0:30:14.280 and in the meantime I had to I was doing 0:30:14.280 --> 0:30:18.160 a talk at an environmental education center. We were selling 0:30:18.160 --> 0:30:20.360 a house, and all these things are bombarding me. And 0:30:20.400 --> 0:30:22.000 you know, when you go and do one of those talks, 0:30:22.080 --> 0:30:24.240 you try to gather your thoughts before you go out there. 0:30:24.240 --> 0:30:27.280 But I'm getting phone calls and checking messages and to 0:30:27.280 --> 0:30:31.080 see if the test results had come back. And I 0:30:31.120 --> 0:30:33.240 walked out there and I started doing my talk, and 0:30:33.440 --> 0:30:36.960 interestingly enough, I was talking about Leopold and the Riley 0:30:36.960 --> 0:30:41.240 Game Cooperative, which maybe we'll get to, and then I'm 0:30:41.240 --> 0:30:44.000 transitioning to the next part of the talk, which was 0:30:44.320 --> 0:30:46.560 about sharing the land, this initiative that I've started that 0:30:46.640 --> 0:30:50.200 was inspired by Leopold. And in the middle of the talk, 0:30:51.160 --> 0:30:54.960 I stopped and all of these things were going through 0:30:54.960 --> 0:30:59.320 my mind at that particular moment, and it just stopped me, 0:30:59.320 --> 0:31:02.120 and I'm like, well, we're going to sell that house, 0:31:02.120 --> 0:31:04.320 and I wonder what's gonna happen with those test results. 0:31:04.360 --> 0:31:05.520 And oh, this is in my head and I'm standing 0:31:05.560 --> 0:31:06.720 in front of two hundred people. 0:31:07.600 --> 0:31:08.760 He started crying, and. 0:31:08.680 --> 0:31:11.280 Then I and then I went and then went into 0:31:11.320 --> 0:31:13.520 the next part of it. And my wife said later, 0:31:13.600 --> 0:31:15.280 I said, did you notice that I kind of freaked 0:31:15.320 --> 0:31:16.640 out there for a minute. She goes, no, I thought 0:31:16.640 --> 0:31:25.680 it was a dramatic pause. It was, yeah, it was. 0:31:26.920 --> 0:31:31.160 Oh another thing about cypress calls. We're gonna record We're 0:31:31.160 --> 0:31:36.200 gonna record podcasts down there, and we'll, uh, we're gonna 0:31:36.200 --> 0:31:39.120 have a way for for people that that We're gonna 0:31:39.160 --> 0:31:41.520 have a way for people that come down and fish 0:31:41.560 --> 0:31:44.880 with us and book trips to We're gonna work on 0:31:44.920 --> 0:31:48.880 a way for people to join in the podcast recordings. 0:31:58.400 --> 0:32:00.600 Trivia board game, bag and stock How did it? When 0:32:00.640 --> 0:32:01.520 was it ever out of stock? 0:32:02.960 --> 0:32:03.160 Uh? 0:32:03.280 --> 0:32:05.400 Not long after we ran. 0:32:05.600 --> 0:32:08.680 Ran ran of them. If you wanted a trivia board game, 0:32:08.680 --> 0:32:14.360 they're back in stock, you know, go camping with your family, 0:32:14.360 --> 0:32:16.719 be able to play some trivia. And also Spencer's plugging 0:32:16.760 --> 0:32:21.200 away on Spencer's plugging away on the the packs expansion 0:32:21.640 --> 0:32:25.600 which I totally disagree with the avenue he took. What 0:32:25.640 --> 0:32:26.920 are the expansion packs he's doing? 0:32:27.000 --> 0:32:27.440 I don't know. 0:32:27.480 --> 0:32:31.520 He's talked about white tails, talked about I don't know. 0:32:31.480 --> 0:32:33.120 What what ones is he doing? 0:32:33.160 --> 0:32:35.400 I want to say, is uh is Mountain Man one 0:32:35.400 --> 0:32:35.640 of them? 0:32:36.840 --> 0:32:37.000 Not? 0:32:40.560 --> 0:32:43.440 Yeah, he's doing expansion packs. I'm sure everybody will like it. 0:32:43.840 --> 0:32:46.440 I would have made him a little weirder m hmm. 0:32:47.080 --> 0:32:50.160 I would have done the I was like more trivial, 0:32:50.280 --> 0:32:51.720 like the weird I would have called it. I've done 0:32:51.720 --> 0:32:55.479 an expansion pack called the Weird Ship mm hmm, and 0:32:55.520 --> 0:32:58.960 then and then Frontiersmen the mountain Man. But he's doing 0:32:58.960 --> 0:33:01.160 like white tails that people like those deer. 0:33:04.480 --> 0:33:05.200 Here we go. 0:33:05.560 --> 0:33:10.840 Before I'm joking. Before we started recording, all you Leopold fans, 0:33:10.840 --> 0:33:13.720 hang tight, we're getting to it. Before we started recording, 0:33:13.800 --> 0:33:16.360 We're gonna Before we started recording today, we were hitting 0:33:16.360 --> 0:33:20.720 on some reminiscing about about spring turkey hunts. I got 0:33:20.720 --> 0:33:23.360 some turkey hunts in the highlight of my turkey season 0:33:24.360 --> 0:33:28.840 was as always going to the Lovely during family farm 0:33:28.880 --> 0:33:32.920 for youth turkey season. Uh, we've had phenomenal hunts. We've 0:33:32.920 --> 0:33:35.800 had some bad weather now and then this year was phenomenal. 0:33:37.880 --> 0:33:43.360 We had four kids hunting, two got birds. Everybody had 0:33:43.400 --> 0:33:47.200 an opportunity. My little boy, it was his first year, 0:33:47.320 --> 0:33:49.600 my younger boy, it was his first year on the shotgun, 0:33:51.160 --> 0:33:54.960 had a miss, kept stoic with Doug. He was hunting 0:33:55.000 --> 0:33:56.960 with Doug. So my daughter was hunting with Doug when 0:33:56.960 --> 0:33:58.920 she got a turkey. My little boy was hunting with 0:33:58.960 --> 0:34:01.240 Doug when he had a miss. He kept stoic, got home, 0:34:01.280 --> 0:34:04.480 went upstairs at the farmhouse and cried. And then the 0:34:04.520 --> 0:34:07.000 other night my wife said, what's up with Matthew because 0:34:07.000 --> 0:34:11.520 he was crying about that turkey quite a number of 0:34:11.520 --> 0:34:12.120 weeks later. 0:34:13.440 --> 0:34:17.480 Yeah, and I thought that he was. He was so 0:34:17.600 --> 0:34:20.920 good about it after it happened. And I'm still playing 0:34:20.960 --> 0:34:23.880 it through my mind. So he's not alone in his disappointment. 0:34:25.760 --> 0:34:29.200 Haunted the lung, Yeah, I am. You're always haunted, haunted 0:34:29.200 --> 0:34:32.600 by the ones that got away, right, But we outside 0:34:32.640 --> 0:34:35.400 of the outside of the blind, and I was just 0:34:35.600 --> 0:34:39.120 I was crushed by it. And I said, Matthew, I'm 0:34:39.200 --> 0:34:43.560 so sorry that that happened, and talked about it a 0:34:43.600 --> 0:34:45.640 little bit, and he just kind of shrugged his shoulders 0:34:45.680 --> 0:34:47.000 and said, well, that's okay. 0:34:47.719 --> 0:34:50.719 No, he like he's he's private about Yeah, he kind 0:34:50.719 --> 0:34:53.000 of he kind of spills his guts at night. Yeah, 0:34:53.480 --> 0:34:55.719 but he spilled his guts upstairs at the farmhouse. 0:34:55.760 --> 0:34:57.600 Do you know. My favorite story that he told me 0:34:57.800 --> 0:34:59.440 when we were in the blind was about how the 0:34:59.520 --> 0:35:04.319 kids at school, because he's kind of bulky. Not my 0:35:04.360 --> 0:35:07.000 mom would have called it husky. He goes the kids 0:35:07.040 --> 0:35:08.720 at school thought I was a bully. 0:35:09.200 --> 0:35:12.640 Yeah, they call it. He says, I have a bully body. 0:35:12.640 --> 0:35:15.280 He's got a bully. He's got the build of a bully, 0:35:15.320 --> 0:35:16.160 but not the temperament. 0:35:16.280 --> 0:35:20.560 Yeah. No, he's such a sweet kid man, which makes 0:35:20.560 --> 0:35:22.319 me feel even worse about him. About that. 0:35:23.280 --> 0:35:26.600 He'll be fine. Yeah aa next year. It's like game on, 0:35:26.760 --> 0:35:29.920 full pressure on him. 0:35:30.000 --> 0:35:34.439 Oh, in the end, it's better this way. 0:35:34.640 --> 0:35:34.719 No. 0:35:34.719 --> 0:35:35.800 I like getting them. 0:35:36.760 --> 0:35:38.160 I'll like get it even Moore though. 0:35:39.040 --> 0:35:42.719 I like getting the turkeys. Brody Haten had a good year. 0:35:43.400 --> 0:35:45.840 You don't think that's some failure for your kids, and 0:35:46.400 --> 0:35:47.839 these hunts is a good thing. 0:35:49.280 --> 0:35:51.839 Really. I like getting them turkeys. I like cutting spurs off. 0:35:52.640 --> 0:35:52.839 Yeah. 0:35:52.880 --> 0:35:56.719 I understand all that tell me that you think that 0:35:56.960 --> 0:36:03.040 the dry, but I never sit there. 0:36:03.120 --> 0:36:04.279 Okay, let me ask you this. 0:36:04.480 --> 0:36:05.320 Do you hope you're. 0:36:07.080 --> 0:36:10.960 When you're sitting there in are you saying yourself, I 0:36:11.000 --> 0:36:14.400 hope she misses, or it'll be more meaningful if she missed. 0:36:14.280 --> 0:36:18.160 Afterwards that you got and taking photos. Are you like, man, 0:36:18.200 --> 0:36:20.319 it would have been nice if she just do. 0:36:20.239 --> 0:36:21.719 You spookle out of the turkeys? 0:36:21.880 --> 0:36:24.560 Are valuable experience if she just missed this, do you. 0:36:24.520 --> 0:36:26.400 Spookle out of turkey so your daughter doesn't get the 0:36:26.440 --> 0:36:29.200 chance it'll be more meaningful to her, Or take her 0:36:29.200 --> 0:36:33.760 to really bad spots because it'll be more meaningful to her. 0:36:34.480 --> 0:36:37.799 No, but. 0:36:39.360 --> 0:36:44.320 Builds characters, what don't We don't take them to spots 0:36:44.360 --> 0:36:48.240 where there's a corn pile and just try to guarantee 0:36:48.560 --> 0:36:51.080 a turkey fe feeding there that they can shoot their 0:36:51.080 --> 0:36:51.640 head off of. 0:36:55.680 --> 0:36:59.680 In hindsight, yes, in the moment, that's how I put it. Yeah, 0:36:59.719 --> 0:37:01.920 in the yeah you did. And in the moment, I 0:37:02.040 --> 0:37:04.240 was like, oh, of course. 0:37:04.440 --> 0:37:07.160 And it's wazier for you to say that than to 0:37:07.280 --> 0:37:08.919 convince the kid of that at the time. 0:37:09.840 --> 0:37:11.120 His daughters will take out. 0:37:11.239 --> 0:37:14.000 You ain't never gonna convince the kid of right at 0:37:14.000 --> 0:37:14.440 the time. 0:37:14.520 --> 0:37:16.640 But I think you're right, honest, bro, your boy got 0:37:16.680 --> 0:37:18.520 a double Yeah, he hadn't. 0:37:18.640 --> 0:37:21.759 It was actually his first spring turkey, first two he 0:37:21.800 --> 0:37:23.880 had killed a gobbler in the fall or. 0:37:24.200 --> 0:37:25.040 A year or two ago. 0:37:25.800 --> 0:37:28.560 But yeah, we had a We had a gob a 0:37:28.560 --> 0:37:32.879 gobbler dragon, five jakes and he got two of them. 0:37:33.040 --> 0:37:34.799 So he shot the big boy and then got the jake. 0:37:34.920 --> 0:37:37.640 Yeah, that that that they were coming in. There's a 0:37:37.680 --> 0:37:40.000 log on the ground, and that I had ranged at 0:37:40.000 --> 0:37:41.920 fifty yards. I was like, they got to come closer 0:37:41.960 --> 0:37:44.799 than that log, and that gobbler when he got to 0:37:44.840 --> 0:37:46.879 that log hopped up on a branch on that log 0:37:46.960 --> 0:37:49.560 and sat there for like three minutes, didn't move, and 0:37:49.640 --> 0:37:52.759 all those jakes were bunched up behind him, and Hayden's like, 0:37:53.120 --> 0:37:53.960 can I shoot him? 0:37:54.360 --> 0:37:54.440 No? 0:37:55.239 --> 0:37:55.799 Shoot him? 0:37:56.280 --> 0:38:00.480 Finally hopped down, got one and I was like another 0:38:00.520 --> 0:38:03.479 one got him. By the time he handed me they 0:38:03.480 --> 0:38:05.680 I had left. We had repositioned, so I had left 0:38:05.680 --> 0:38:08.600 my gun away from us, so I didn't have a chance. 0:38:08.719 --> 0:38:09.480 He handed me the gun. 0:38:09.600 --> 0:38:12.080 They were all finally all scattered. But yeah, it was cool. 0:38:12.160 --> 0:38:12.840 You got a triple. 0:38:13.120 --> 0:38:20.840 Yeah, maybe a quadruple quad I've never been present for 0:38:21.280 --> 0:38:25.920 I don't think I have either, but yeah, that's a mess. 0:38:26.000 --> 0:38:28.520 Yeah, John, he got a triple. You know, it was funny. Yes, 0:38:28.600 --> 0:38:30.840 I got in yesterday and I walked down to the 0:38:31.000 --> 0:38:32.959 from the hotel and walked down to the Mediator store, 0:38:33.000 --> 0:38:35.840 which I have to say is beautiful. I liked it 0:38:35.880 --> 0:38:40.520 a lot. Which buy a little thing for my wife? Yeah? Yeah, 0:38:40.560 --> 0:38:44.239 and what I thought I had got some kind of discount. 0:38:44.239 --> 0:38:45.960 But those guys and they held me right up for 0:38:46.000 --> 0:38:51.240 the Yeah, not that guy. You know, if they don't recognize. 0:38:50.800 --> 0:38:52.319 Do you have any idea who I am? 0:38:53.200 --> 0:38:55.399 So when you went into the media store, they didn't 0:38:55.400 --> 0:38:56.000 know who you were. 0:38:55.920 --> 0:39:02.680 They immediately recognized me. Anyway, was interesting because the the 0:39:03.320 --> 0:39:07.640 you've got that YouTube videos running on loop and here 0:39:07.840 --> 0:39:11.200 was the Turkey hunt that you did with Miller And 0:39:11.400 --> 0:39:13.120 I'm talking to the guy and I'm kind of looking around, 0:39:13.160 --> 0:39:15.200 and I was like, this doesn't get interesting until they 0:39:15.239 --> 0:39:20.000 leave Yanni's property and come over to my farm. And 0:39:20.760 --> 0:39:23.600 the guy goes I've seen this so many times already. 0:39:23.680 --> 0:39:25.480 How did how did I not see you guys get 0:39:25.480 --> 0:39:29.000 a triple? You know how Turkey populations are declining in 0:39:29.080 --> 0:39:30.800 this country because of guys like you. 0:39:34.600 --> 0:39:36.080 It's better when you don't get one. 0:39:36.160 --> 0:39:42.320 Yeah, not getting one? 0:39:42.640 --> 0:39:45.239 Yann. He's walking away. He's got a big gobbler in 0:39:45.239 --> 0:39:51.080 the middle of two, Jake's. 0:39:48.760 --> 0:39:49.799 It's always better to go. 0:39:51.360 --> 0:39:53.719 But you guys, you guys have had hunted quite a 0:39:53.760 --> 0:39:56.279 bit before you all of a sudden got into him. 0:39:56.320 --> 0:39:59.560 Oh yeah, we put our time the Durn Farm, didn't 0:40:00.320 --> 0:40:00.960 We had it. 0:40:00.920 --> 0:40:03.399 It didn't save one of our episodes, but it really 0:40:03.440 --> 0:40:07.560 helped it. Oh yeah, when we had to come over 0:40:07.560 --> 0:40:10.880 with Melroy, all over from Melroy. 0:40:10.719 --> 0:40:12.560 With your cheese curds on the dashboard. 0:40:13.120 --> 0:40:15.960 Uh, Carl, you got you hunters your kids this year? 0:40:16.200 --> 0:40:16.719 Yeah? 0:40:17.120 --> 0:40:18.000 Yeah, how'd that go? 0:40:18.280 --> 0:40:21.640 Had an awesome hunt And back to the connections to 0:40:21.800 --> 0:40:25.479 farms and and sort of the meat Eater crew after 0:40:25.560 --> 0:40:29.360 meeting Chester. He grew up about forty five minutes north 0:40:29.480 --> 0:40:32.200 of where I'm living in southeast Wisconsin, on a beautiful 0:40:33.040 --> 0:40:36.560 chunk of land, and his family has welcomed me there 0:40:36.640 --> 0:40:40.680 the last three springs on the farm where Chester grew up, 0:40:41.600 --> 0:40:44.839 and it's beautiful and actually the work that they're doing 0:40:44.840 --> 0:40:48.719 on that farm as stewards of the land ties nicely. 0:40:51.280 --> 0:40:54.279 They're doing a beautiful job. It is a beautiful piece 0:40:54.320 --> 0:40:56.320 of property. And so I've gotten to know both of 0:40:56.400 --> 0:41:02.000 Chester's parents and also his brother Ike. Ike's a cool dude. 0:41:02.280 --> 0:41:08.680 Trad bow guy, total entrepreneur and had a chance to 0:41:08.719 --> 0:41:12.759 take my four year old son along this year and 0:41:12.800 --> 0:41:19.239 we had just a phenomenal, phenomenal hunt with perfect conditions. 0:41:19.560 --> 0:41:24.319 First morning, got in there in the dark as things 0:41:24.320 --> 0:41:26.560 are getting light. We've got deer close to the blind, 0:41:26.600 --> 0:41:28.360 so my son's checking out the deer. He's got his 0:41:29.320 --> 0:41:34.279 farm and fleet plastic practice shotgun along and have a 0:41:34.320 --> 0:41:37.800 bird goblin on the roost. Had a possum come out 0:41:38.000 --> 0:41:39.880 in front of us, real close and walk by. I 0:41:39.920 --> 0:41:43.880 got to watch this possum, sand hill cranes, Canada geese, 0:41:44.640 --> 0:41:51.279 the just amazing diversity of dawn bird's song, everything just 0:41:51.480 --> 0:41:55.080 like ten out of ten in this incredible farm, just 0:41:55.120 --> 0:42:00.680 a beautiful spot. And as the morning wore on, we 0:42:00.760 --> 0:42:03.160 had a hen kind of calling back and forth with me, 0:42:04.280 --> 0:42:07.759 and my son was totally on edge listening to this hen. 0:42:08.280 --> 0:42:11.000 Hen comes out into the field into the decoy spread, 0:42:11.000 --> 0:42:13.080 and my son immediately is like, you're gonna shoot that 0:42:13.200 --> 0:42:16.200 You're you're gonna shoot that turkey, and I'm telling him no, 0:42:16.680 --> 0:42:18.640 waiting for a gobbler. You know, this is the spring hunt. 0:42:18.680 --> 0:42:21.360 Of course, it's got to be a male turkey. And 0:42:21.400 --> 0:42:23.960 every once in a while, you'd hear this gobbler gobble 0:42:24.000 --> 0:42:25.520 at the sound of us call him back and forth 0:42:25.560 --> 0:42:28.279 with the hen and every gobble. My son's getting more 0:42:28.320 --> 0:42:31.319 and more amped up. And I don't know, I think 0:42:31.600 --> 0:42:33.640 many of us here have been in the blind with kids. 0:42:33.719 --> 0:42:37.080 My son is the loudest whisperer ever. He whispers like 0:42:37.160 --> 0:42:39.920 borderline yelling. Right, It's like, did you hear that gobble? 0:42:40.760 --> 0:42:40.960 Yeah? 0:42:41.040 --> 0:42:42.560 I heard the gobble man, and we got to keep 0:42:42.560 --> 0:42:45.239 it down. So I'm trying to keep him quiet, and 0:42:45.719 --> 0:42:48.520 the hen comes in. I've got a strutting tom and 0:42:48.640 --> 0:42:51.160 a hen decoy out in front of us. The hen 0:42:51.239 --> 0:42:54.080 comes in. She's purring and making all kinds of very 0:42:54.440 --> 0:42:58.400 very subtle vocalizations, and she gets right in there with 0:42:57.960 --> 0:43:01.719 the two decoys, the gobbler and the hen. And I 0:43:01.760 --> 0:43:04.680 know this Tom is somewhere nearby, right, and he's he's 0:43:04.719 --> 0:43:07.360 been coming to the sound of the hen. And so 0:43:07.400 --> 0:43:10.680 I'm telling my boy, I'm like, just two things, do 0:43:10.840 --> 0:43:16.080 not move and don't speak. Don't move, don't speak. And 0:43:16.120 --> 0:43:18.920 it's that that moment where you know the gobbler is 0:43:18.920 --> 0:43:23.600 somewhere nearby, but we haven't seen him yet, and you 0:43:23.640 --> 0:43:27.040 could you could cut the silence with a knife, right, 0:43:27.080 --> 0:43:30.000 It's just like perfectly, there's not a breath of wind, nothing, 0:43:30.480 --> 0:43:32.400 And I'm just waiting for this gobbler to appear at 0:43:32.400 --> 0:43:36.520 any moment. And that's when my son farts, like loudly. 0:43:37.719 --> 0:43:41.480 Did he shot with a super add that to the list? 0:43:42.360 --> 0:43:44.480 And he's got just like a totally innocent look on 0:43:44.520 --> 0:43:46.040 his face. And I look at him, I'm like, dude, 0:43:46.040 --> 0:43:48.080 what the heck man? And he looks at me like 0:43:48.120 --> 0:43:52.200 what I'm like. When I said don't speak, I meant like, 0:43:52.239 --> 0:43:56.440 don't make any noise. And we're whispering back and forth. 0:43:56.960 --> 0:44:01.560 So you know, he's dude's four, right. So so then 0:44:01.560 --> 0:44:05.000 I'm wondering did the tom hear this? Because I'm serious. 0:44:05.000 --> 0:44:06.920 It's like that moment where any if you're thinking that the 0:44:06.960 --> 0:44:09.879 gobbler is going to show up any second, and ten 0:44:09.960 --> 0:44:12.440 seconds go by twenty seconds, we probably get close to 0:44:12.440 --> 0:44:12.880 a minute. 0:44:13.080 --> 0:44:15.279 And then at the edge of. 0:44:15.280 --> 0:44:18.160 The field, this gobbler comes strutting out and as soon 0:44:18.200 --> 0:44:19.840 as my son peeking out, you know, we got we 0:44:19.880 --> 0:44:21.520 got a ground blind step. As soon as as soon 0:44:21.560 --> 0:44:24.080 as the gobbler starts coming out, my boy starts reaching 0:44:24.080 --> 0:44:25.520 for the other side of the blind to get his 0:44:25.600 --> 0:44:28.480 farm and flight shot on the little little toy gun. 0:44:28.480 --> 0:44:30.480 I'm like, don't move, don't move like you can shoot 0:44:30.480 --> 0:44:32.600 the turkey in a second, you know, after after we 0:44:32.800 --> 0:44:35.359 take care of business. So the gobbler struts out right 0:44:35.400 --> 0:44:38.799 into the the spread and he's all fanned out, get 0:44:39.040 --> 0:44:41.400 starting to nudge right up on the on the streading 0:44:41.719 --> 0:44:46.160 gobbler decoy. So shot the gobbler went out there. My 0:44:46.239 --> 0:44:48.840 son was over the moon, you know, turkey's flopping around 0:44:48.880 --> 0:44:51.400 and he's asking questions about you know, is the turkey 0:44:51.440 --> 0:44:52.000 still alive? 0:44:52.040 --> 0:44:52.960 And we're talking is it. 0:44:52.880 --> 0:44:55.080 True that you can't stop the flop Daddy. 0:44:54.880 --> 0:44:57.000 I've got I've gotten to the point where, you know, 0:44:57.040 --> 0:44:58.920 I used to stand on the stand on the neck 0:44:58.960 --> 0:45:00.480 and all that anymore. If you I know you've made 0:45:00.480 --> 0:45:02.080 a good shot, just kind of wait for the flopping 0:45:02.160 --> 0:45:05.280 to stop. So took some pictures and then went back 0:45:07.040 --> 0:45:11.279 back up to the farmhouse and Chester's mom, dad, brother 0:45:11.400 --> 0:45:15.320 all there. I bump into Chester's dad Greg first, and he's. 0:45:15.120 --> 0:45:15.560 Over the moon. 0:45:15.560 --> 0:45:16.640 He didn't know I was going to have my boy 0:45:16.680 --> 0:45:19.239 along with me, right, So he sees my son and 0:45:19.280 --> 0:45:21.400 my son walks up to him without hesitation. He says, Hi, 0:45:21.480 --> 0:45:23.959 I'm Alexander, thanks for letting us hunt on your farm 0:45:24.000 --> 0:45:29.680 this morning, and Greg Greg Flood, Chester's dad says, hold on, 0:45:29.719 --> 0:45:32.680 I need to get my wife and brings her out. 0:45:32.920 --> 0:45:35.640 And that was the first time i'd met her. You 0:45:35.680 --> 0:45:38.279 can you know Chester is a super solid dude, and 0:45:38.280 --> 0:45:40.280 you can see when you meet his mom and dead brother, 0:45:40.400 --> 0:45:43.080 like why he turned out the way he did. They're 0:45:43.160 --> 0:45:46.040 just a really awesome family. And so his mom took 0:45:46.080 --> 0:45:48.400 a few more pictures of us up there at the 0:45:48.440 --> 0:45:51.439 farmhouse and we shot the shot the breeze a little 0:45:51.480 --> 0:45:55.280 bit more. And then his brother has a cookie business 0:45:55.280 --> 0:45:56.840 going right now, and he sent us home with a 0:45:56.840 --> 0:45:59.719 few of the cookies. So like we show up on 0:45:59.840 --> 0:46:03.399 at the farm, were treated like royalty by these folks. 0:46:03.480 --> 0:46:05.280 They send us home with they give you present. 0:46:05.360 --> 0:46:06.480 I know, man, I know. 0:46:07.360 --> 0:46:09.480 So we went we went right home, and my boy 0:46:09.520 --> 0:46:10.799 and I wrote a bit. He's getting the point where 0:46:10.800 --> 0:46:12.600 he can write a L e X pretty well. So 0:46:12.640 --> 0:46:14.839 he and I collaborated on a thank you card and 0:46:14.920 --> 0:46:17.960 send him a send them a little token of our appreciation. 0:46:18.120 --> 0:46:21.440 But super cool and seeing the way I mean that 0:46:21.880 --> 0:46:24.120 that farm, not unlike the little bit of property that 0:46:24.320 --> 0:46:26.320 my family and I live on has been heavily impacted 0:46:26.320 --> 0:46:29.000 by the Emerald ash boarer. So they've got dead ash 0:46:29.040 --> 0:46:33.000 trees everywhere, and they're also at the headwaters of a 0:46:33.320 --> 0:46:36.839 really important trout stream tributary. They're doing so much work 0:46:36.880 --> 0:46:39.440 to remove the dead ash trees to plant new trees. 0:46:40.440 --> 0:46:42.839 They're obviously they're they're big. They're big deer hunters. They've 0:46:42.880 --> 0:46:44.640 got deer blinds all over the place. They're thinking a 0:46:44.680 --> 0:46:48.200 lot about deer. But they're also they're approaching the stewardship 0:46:48.280 --> 0:46:51.759 of that property with a focus on back to what 0:46:51.800 --> 0:46:54.520 Doug was saying, like what does the land need from us? 0:46:54.680 --> 0:46:55.719 And they're providing it. 0:46:56.239 --> 0:46:58.000 And then you pull out of the driveway and I 0:46:58.040 --> 0:46:59.360 think at the end of the driveway they've got a 0:46:59.400 --> 0:47:02.960 bunch of big rounds of dead ash stacked up with 0:47:03.040 --> 0:47:07.839 a sign free firewood donations accepted. Oh so anybody wants 0:47:07.840 --> 0:47:09.640 to roll up and grab firewood and if they want 0:47:09.640 --> 0:47:11.520 to throw a few bucks in, like that's the kind 0:47:11.520 --> 0:47:13.439 of people that they are. So it just felt felt 0:47:13.480 --> 0:47:18.680 really privileged and that experience with my boy, like the 0:47:18.680 --> 0:47:22.080 the getting a turkey is always cool, but having that 0:47:22.160 --> 0:47:24.680 morning and seeing all the wildlife and the woods waking 0:47:24.760 --> 0:47:29.360 up and his excitement and just all those details. It 0:47:29.520 --> 0:47:31.480 was one of the most fun turkey hunts that I've 0:47:31.680 --> 0:47:34.239 I've experienced in my life for sure. So good, a 0:47:34.320 --> 0:47:37.160 good start to the spring. And up next week, man, 0:47:37.200 --> 0:47:39.200 I'm taking the week off to float some rivers up 0:47:39.239 --> 0:47:42.640 and up in the up and catch trout and uh 0:47:42.880 --> 0:47:44.840 and hunt some gobblers in the north country. 0:47:46.120 --> 0:47:49.120 We're going to talk about Yanni's Arizona. We're gonna we're 0:47:49.120 --> 0:47:53.480 gonna move on. I want to digging on Leopold, Okay, 0:47:53.560 --> 0:47:56.160 because it happened. First, we're here to we're here to 0:47:56.200 --> 0:47:59.520 celebrate the hundred one hundred years of the HeLa Wilderness 0:47:59.480 --> 0:48:02.240 heal Wildern yep. And then we're going to talk about 0:48:02.320 --> 0:48:05.719 more about San Countie Almanac. Yeah, but you want to 0:48:05.719 --> 0:48:07.480 take the Helo, Carl. 0:48:07.320 --> 0:48:08.319 You want to dive into the HeLa. 0:48:08.480 --> 0:48:11.560 Yeah, yeah, tell me like like how it happened, why 0:48:11.600 --> 0:48:13.279 it happened, what the repercussions were. 0:48:15.120 --> 0:48:19.480 Well, A good place, A good place to start the 0:48:19.560 --> 0:48:22.800 conversation as it relates to Leopold is just a reminder 0:48:22.800 --> 0:48:26.200 of the fact that that Aldough was a Midwestern boy 0:48:26.280 --> 0:48:29.160 by birth, grew up in Burlington, Iowa, spent a lot 0:48:29.200 --> 0:48:32.520 of time actually growing up, summer vacations in the Upper Peninsula, 0:48:32.560 --> 0:48:35.160 Michigan over in the Lasiano Islands, a lot of formative 0:48:35.160 --> 0:48:39.560 experiences in the Midwest that definitely shaped his philosophy ultimately 0:48:39.600 --> 0:48:43.320 around around private land management. But at a very formative 0:48:43.360 --> 0:48:45.719 period in his career, after just graduating from the Yale 0:48:45.760 --> 0:48:49.239 School of Forestry, he did what basically was really the 0:48:49.280 --> 0:48:52.319 only option for an aspiring young conservation professional at that 0:48:52.360 --> 0:48:54.520 point in time, which was to get a job with 0:48:54.640 --> 0:48:57.880 the also young United States Forest Service, the agency I 0:48:57.920 --> 0:48:58.520 work for now. 0:48:59.000 --> 0:49:00.279 I want to hear you with a quick question. Yeah, 0:49:00.400 --> 0:49:04.400 on biography. Yeah, we've joked before about how he's one 0:49:04.400 --> 0:49:07.360 of these people that has multiple places that claim him totally. 0:49:07.440 --> 0:49:10.040 You know, like the writer Jim Harrison is like Montana 0:49:10.120 --> 0:49:13.600 claims him, Patagonia, Arizona, crailing Michigan baby, Right, So so 0:49:13.680 --> 0:49:16.400 you get these people like they're claimed by Yeah, you know, 0:49:16.480 --> 0:49:17.320 a bunch of spots. 0:49:17.520 --> 0:49:19.560 Harrison gets claimed by Michigan though. We'll just put that 0:49:19.600 --> 0:49:20.200 to rest right now. 0:49:20.239 --> 0:49:24.080 Yeah, like the big claim, does Iowa take any like, Yeah, 0:49:24.120 --> 0:49:28.440 Wisconsin loves Leopold, Yeah for sure. New Mexico loves Leopold 0:49:28.520 --> 0:49:28.960 for sure. 0:49:29.200 --> 0:49:29.439 Yeah. 0:49:29.600 --> 0:49:31.839 Iowa was a little bit like, yeah, that community, this. 0:49:31.760 --> 0:49:34.080 Is where his his the house that he grew up 0:49:34.120 --> 0:49:38.160 in is still maintained as a very important historical site 0:49:38.200 --> 0:49:40.880 right on the banks the Mississippi River and Burlington, Iowa 0:49:41.000 --> 0:49:43.360 is you know. Inarguably that's where he got got to 0:49:43.480 --> 0:49:46.320 start watching watching the birds in the yard with opera 0:49:46.360 --> 0:49:48.239 glasses that his mother okay him. 0:49:48.680 --> 0:49:50.800 So that's that's. 0:49:50.640 --> 0:49:55.760 Where it began, absolutely influential experiences throughout the Midwest. Yale 0:49:55.800 --> 0:49:59.640 School of Forestry graduates and does the one thing that 0:49:59.680 --> 0:50:02.280 a young forester can do at that point in time professionally, 0:50:02.320 --> 0:50:04.440 which is get a job with the United States Forest Service. 0:50:04.800 --> 0:50:08.360 They promptly ship him out to the Arizona Territory. Like 0:50:08.400 --> 0:50:11.320 bear in mind this this predates Arizona in New Mexico 0:50:11.400 --> 0:50:16.480 statehood and is what you're this would be early nineteen hundreds. 0:50:16.239 --> 0:50:18.040 Like I'd have to I'd have to get. 0:50:17.920 --> 0:50:21.600 A time nineteen oh ninety gets shipped out. Yep, okay, good, 0:50:21.880 --> 0:50:24.840 we can tag team this. So and and by the way, anybody, 0:50:25.680 --> 0:50:28.880 anybody who wants to get into Leopold's biography in a 0:50:28.960 --> 0:50:31.760 very detailed way. A friend, a friend of ours, Kurtmine, 0:50:32.040 --> 0:50:35.800 wrote a phenomenal biography of all the Leopold, All the Leopold, 0:50:35.840 --> 0:50:38.680 his life and work. Grab a copy of that if 0:50:38.680 --> 0:50:40.839 you really want to get into the details. It's fantastic. 0:50:42.719 --> 0:50:45.799 So young Leopold, straight out of college, shipped out to 0:50:46.120 --> 0:50:50.960 essentially cruise timber on the Apache Sitgreaves National Forest what 0:50:51.040 --> 0:50:53.799 is today the Apache Sitgreaves National Forest, which is right 0:50:53.840 --> 0:50:58.840 on the sort of southern end of the border between 0:50:58.960 --> 0:51:00.680 what is now the state of Arizona in the state 0:51:00.719 --> 0:51:03.680 of New Mexico. And so his job is to quantify 0:51:04.080 --> 0:51:06.759 essentially how much timber is out there. And bear in mind, 0:51:06.800 --> 0:51:10.279 at this point the history of the Forest Service, the 0:51:10.440 --> 0:51:15.160 genesis was rooted in a recognition that these landscapes were 0:51:15.200 --> 0:51:19.160 important for producing timber and also important for protecting the 0:51:19.200 --> 0:51:23.080 headwaters of critical drinking water sources, particularly in the Western 0:51:23.200 --> 0:51:26.000 United States. So early on in the Forest Service, the 0:51:26.040 --> 0:51:29.120 focus was really on watersheds and timber, and it wasn't 0:51:29.160 --> 0:51:31.960 until nineteen sixty there was a piece of legislation called 0:51:32.000 --> 0:51:35.439 the Multiple Use Sustained Yield Act, which broadened the set 0:51:35.440 --> 0:51:39.240 of responsibilities that the agency has to go beyond timber 0:51:39.280 --> 0:51:43.480 and water and include fish and wildlife habitat, outdoor recreation, 0:51:43.600 --> 0:51:46.000 and also brought in rangeland management as one of the 0:51:46.000 --> 0:51:48.440 five pillars of the multiple use mission that the agency 0:51:48.440 --> 0:51:51.080 has today. But at that point in time, timber was 0:51:51.160 --> 0:51:56.719 essentially king. So Leopold's out cruising around filing reports with 0:51:57.360 --> 0:52:00.520 the headquarters office, letting folks know how much timber out there, 0:52:00.520 --> 0:52:04.360 of what different varieties and potential merchant ability and logistics 0:52:04.360 --> 0:52:07.200 of accessing that timber, et cetera, which is what he 0:52:07.239 --> 0:52:11.839 was trained to do in school, and spending a lot 0:52:11.880 --> 0:52:13.400 of time. You got to bear in mind like that 0:52:13.520 --> 0:52:17.560 field work was on horseback, extended periods of time out 0:52:17.680 --> 0:52:20.920 in the back country, exploring a landscape that would have 0:52:20.960 --> 0:52:25.040 been totally unfamiliar to Leopold and quite like. 0:52:25.239 --> 0:52:27.480 And quite remote, quite remote back then. 0:52:27.640 --> 0:52:31.239 Yeah, yeah, I mean part of that landscape is one 0:52:31.239 --> 0:52:33.720 of the prominent features there right on the New Mexico 0:52:33.920 --> 0:52:37.320 Arizona state line is escadea Mountain, and there's an essay 0:52:37.440 --> 0:52:40.279 in a Sand County almanac called Escadia, which was the 0:52:40.320 --> 0:52:43.080 home of one of the last grizzly bears to live 0:52:43.080 --> 0:52:48.160 in the southwestern United States. So Leopold is seeing and 0:52:48.239 --> 0:52:52.520 experiencing all these things, including those those stories he's hearing 0:52:52.520 --> 0:52:56.480 about the grizzly bears, and coming to have a real 0:52:56.520 --> 0:53:02.200 appreciation for what that landscape has to offer, in addition 0:53:02.360 --> 0:53:05.640 to the timber that he's out there cruising and over 0:53:05.680 --> 0:53:09.000 the course of his time in the southwestern United States 0:53:09.000 --> 0:53:12.920 and ascending into different positions and thinking a lot about 0:53:13.239 --> 0:53:16.640 the change that he's watching occur on the landscape, he 0:53:16.760 --> 0:53:20.120 starts posing some questions that at the time were extremely radical. 0:53:20.920 --> 0:53:23.200 And this was a period of time where there was 0:53:23.239 --> 0:53:26.840 a huge expansion of the road network basically every corner 0:53:27.120 --> 0:53:30.319 of the western US, it felt like to Leopold and 0:53:30.360 --> 0:53:33.799 others had new roads being built into wild country in 0:53:33.880 --> 0:53:38.320 part to extract resources, but also to support people's tourism 0:53:38.360 --> 0:53:42.319 to these places and economic development. And this is when 0:53:42.360 --> 0:53:47.240 the automobile is becoming more commonly owned by middle class 0:53:47.280 --> 0:53:50.799 families throughout the country. And so Leopold started asking some 0:53:50.920 --> 0:53:57.120 questions about whether or not certain places, including the Hila, 0:53:57.840 --> 0:53:59.839 if we want to talk about highest and best use 0:53:59.840 --> 0:54:03.719 of these landscapes, does it not make sense to refrain 0:54:03.920 --> 0:54:08.319 from having that development incur into at least some of 0:54:08.360 --> 0:54:13.879 these remnants of wildness that exist. And he was able 0:54:13.920 --> 0:54:16.520 to do that because he was a well respected sort 0:54:16.520 --> 0:54:19.480 of insider within the agency. He wasn't you know, he 0:54:19.560 --> 0:54:24.359 wasn't seen as some radical from the outside with these 0:54:24.360 --> 0:54:27.719 crazy ideas. He was trained at the Yale School of Forestry. 0:54:27.719 --> 0:54:30.720 He was very much indoctrinated in agency culture. 0:54:30.719 --> 0:54:31.680 But he was also. 0:54:33.080 --> 0:54:35.560 Asking questions that nobody else at the time was really 0:54:35.719 --> 0:54:38.239 was really posing. And so with the Hila coming up 0:54:38.280 --> 0:54:40.840 here in just about two weeks time, right at the 0:54:40.880 --> 0:54:43.879 beginning of June will hit the one hundredth anniversary of 0:54:43.920 --> 0:54:49.440 the administrative designation of the Hila as the first wilderness 0:54:49.440 --> 0:54:51.719 area anywhere on the planet. And it was really at 0:54:51.800 --> 0:54:55.480 Leopold's urging that he convinced the regional forester or the 0:54:55.520 --> 0:54:59.280 big boss of the Southwestern region to make that administrative 0:54:59.280 --> 0:55:03.319 designation that then carried forward another forty years. So that 0:55:03.400 --> 0:55:07.239 was nineteen twenty four that the HeLa was administratively designated. 0:55:07.600 --> 0:55:10.879 It took forty more years before, in nineteen sixty four 0:55:10.960 --> 0:55:14.200 the passage of the Wilderness Act, and then the HeLa 0:55:14.320 --> 0:55:17.279 and a number of other wild landscapes around the United 0:55:17.320 --> 0:55:21.160 States were included in that first batch of congressionally designated 0:55:21.160 --> 0:55:24.800 wilderness areas a full forty years later. So Leopold is 0:55:25.600 --> 0:55:29.960 widely seen as one of the one of the critical 0:55:30.000 --> 0:55:32.920 players in helping set the stage for now. We have 0:55:32.920 --> 0:55:35.879 about one hundred and ten million acres of wilderness that's 0:55:35.880 --> 0:55:38.960 managed under the National Wilderness Preservation System, about two percent 0:55:39.000 --> 0:55:39.520 of the country. 0:55:39.840 --> 0:55:40.040 Right. 0:55:40.160 --> 0:55:44.960 Yeah, how big was the HeLa the area that he identified. 0:55:45.160 --> 0:55:47.720 It's in the ballpark of five hundred and fifty thousand 0:55:47.719 --> 0:55:51.200 acres And what's cool now, and there's actually some really 0:55:51.200 --> 0:55:54.360 interesting history here. But for anybody who's familiar with that landscape, 0:55:54.360 --> 0:55:56.160 you have the HeLa Wilderness and then just to the 0:55:56.200 --> 0:55:59.000 east of it, you have another wilderness area called the 0:55:59.000 --> 0:56:04.120 Aldo Leopold Wildern And there's a road that divides the 0:56:04.160 --> 0:56:06.920 two wilderness areas. I think it's Forest Road one point fifty, 0:56:07.120 --> 0:56:12.840 also referred to as the North Star Road, and that road. 0:56:13.000 --> 0:56:15.000 One of the reasons that that road was put in 0:56:15.560 --> 0:56:19.400 was actually to provide easier access to the burgeoning deer herds. 0:56:19.760 --> 0:56:21.360 And this relates to some of the other things that 0:56:22.120 --> 0:56:24.600 Doug and I were talking about earlier. Today about Leopold's 0:56:25.160 --> 0:56:31.080 questioning of predator control, his work on trying to argue 0:56:31.200 --> 0:56:35.520 in favor of more aggressive deer harvests, including antler list 0:56:35.520 --> 0:56:39.560 deer harvest, at times when that was wildly unpopular. But 0:56:39.600 --> 0:56:42.080 one of the concerns that he had back in the 0:56:42.120 --> 0:56:44.840 twenties was the idea that predator control had been so 0:56:44.920 --> 0:56:49.840 effective at promoting these burgeoning deer numbers that then the 0:56:49.960 --> 0:56:52.319 need to access and manage those deer numbers was one 0:56:52.320 --> 0:56:55.760 of the reasons that management agencies like the Forest Service 0:56:55.800 --> 0:56:57.960 and state game and fish agencies were using to build 0:56:57.960 --> 0:57:00.360 new roads into wild country to get more hunter to 0:57:00.400 --> 0:57:03.400 kill the deer that the predators no longer could control. 0:57:03.960 --> 0:57:07.719 And he published some research papers. There's a paper that 0:57:07.840 --> 0:57:12.000 he published in nineteen forty three titled Deer Eruptions where 0:57:12.000 --> 0:57:17.680 he evaluates a couple of different case studies where for 0:57:17.800 --> 0:57:20.600 various reasons. In the case of the Kibab Plateau this 0:57:20.640 --> 0:57:24.959 is post predator control, the deer herds, inflated by orders 0:57:25.000 --> 0:57:30.280 of magnitude, over browsed the range and then had massive 0:57:30.320 --> 0:57:33.920 die offs in the winter, and that impacted the ability 0:57:33.920 --> 0:57:36.280 of the forage in the near term. After those years 0:57:36.280 --> 0:57:39.840 to actually sustain the deer population rebounding. And then another 0:57:39.880 --> 0:57:43.280 case study where I've got a really personal connection is 0:57:43.320 --> 0:57:46.120 a research reserve in southeast Michigan called the Edwin S. 0:57:46.240 --> 0:57:50.960 George Research Preserve. It's a twelve hundred acre property near Hell, Michigan. 0:57:51.000 --> 0:57:55.360 If anybody's familiar with that, which is fenced. And the 0:57:55.400 --> 0:57:58.280 man who owned that property at the time in nineteen 0:57:58.320 --> 0:58:00.720 twenty eight, he brought in four doh and two bucks 0:58:00.760 --> 0:58:03.720 from the up of Michigan released him on the property 0:58:03.800 --> 0:58:06.440 at a time when there were virtually no deer in 0:58:06.480 --> 0:58:10.160 southeast Michigan, and over the span of just a few years, 0:58:10.560 --> 0:58:15.400 the population demonstrated essentially exponential growth in the absence of predation. 0:58:15.840 --> 0:58:18.240 Went from the four dos and two bucks to one 0:58:18.280 --> 0:58:20.880 hundred and sixty deer in the span of I think 0:58:20.920 --> 0:58:23.640 it was four years, six years somewhere in there. I'd 0:58:23.640 --> 0:58:27.560 have to go back and revisit the digits, but exponential growth. 0:58:27.680 --> 0:58:31.600 Leopold uses these two case studies to make the argument for. 0:58:31.920 --> 0:58:33.560 Did he have some real studs on that place? 0:58:36.360 --> 0:58:40.880 Well, so, I said a personal connection to that property 0:58:41.240 --> 0:58:43.360 because when I was an undergrad at the University of Michigan, 0:58:44.200 --> 0:58:46.680 they had no management planned for that deer herd, and 0:58:46.720 --> 0:58:49.480 so one of my first forays into wildlife management was 0:58:49.520 --> 0:58:52.600 incorporating a little consulting business and bidding on a contract 0:58:53.000 --> 0:58:55.320 to manage the deer herd at the Edwin S. George Reserve, 0:58:55.720 --> 0:58:58.160 where also some of the most important white tailed deer 0:58:58.200 --> 0:59:02.920 population ecology work was published by another scientist named Dale McCullough. 0:59:03.000 --> 0:59:04.880 So this is a really well studied herd that had 0:59:04.880 --> 0:59:07.520 a history of really good management and then they basically 0:59:07.520 --> 0:59:10.360 did nothing for a number of years. And so I 0:59:10.440 --> 0:59:13.560 was out there doing winter kill surveys and seeing we 0:59:13.960 --> 0:59:17.200 would find thirty to fifty winter killed deer per year 0:59:17.240 --> 0:59:19.480 inside this reason of that because there's no predation. 0:59:19.920 --> 0:59:24.040 How many how many acres was it again? Twelve vendre yep. 0:59:24.600 --> 0:59:24.800 Yeah. 0:59:24.840 --> 0:59:26.760 So there's another book for folks who really want to 0:59:26.960 --> 0:59:28.880 If you're in the wildlife management realm and really want 0:59:28.920 --> 0:59:32.080 to get into it, look for Dale McCullough's book The 0:59:32.160 --> 0:59:35.320 George Reserve Deer Herd, which is one of the foundational 0:59:35.760 --> 0:59:41.640 sort of wildlife management books on the reproductive capacity and 0:59:41.800 --> 0:59:45.360 population dynamics of white tail deer and Dale McCullough also 0:59:46.120 --> 0:59:49.560 did a lot of research in Australia with kangaroos, and 0:59:49.600 --> 0:59:53.440 he's a big population dynamics guy. Coincidentally also a student 0:59:53.480 --> 0:59:56.560 of one of Leopold's sons as a graduate student as well. 0:59:57.000 --> 1:00:01.560 So Leopold just tying this back to the HILA, he 1:00:02.720 --> 1:00:06.680 was the driving force for pumping the brakes on the 1:00:06.720 --> 1:00:10.080 idea that all of these National Forest System landscapes should 1:00:10.080 --> 1:00:11.920 be looked at through the lens of how much timber 1:00:11.960 --> 1:00:14.880 can they produce? Stepping back and saying like, wait a minute, 1:00:15.520 --> 1:00:19.440 in some of these places, these vestiges of wildness might 1:00:19.520 --> 1:00:23.000 actually serve us a much higher value over the long run. 1:00:23.840 --> 1:00:26.480 And this is what I wanted you to jump into next. Yeah, sure, 1:00:26.760 --> 1:00:28.680 And just to tee it up a little bit differently, 1:00:28.800 --> 1:00:34.680 at a point, Leopold has like make a non emotional case. Yeah, 1:00:35.360 --> 1:00:37.000 like he needs to go to and he needs to 1:00:37.040 --> 1:00:42.120 go to administrators like bureaucrats, Yeah, who are serving a 1:00:42.160 --> 1:00:47.080 mandate well delivering value. Yep, all right, And he needs 1:00:47.120 --> 1:00:52.360 to say maybe he feels something spiritual. Yeah, probably he's 1:00:52.360 --> 1:00:57.320 like feeling a spiritual need to preserve wild places in America. 1:00:58.480 --> 1:00:59.920 But that's not going to f. 1:01:01.960 --> 1:01:02.160 Right. 1:01:02.680 --> 1:01:05.640 He's got to put it into he's got to make 1:01:05.680 --> 1:01:09.840 it pragmatic. Yeah, in some way. Yeah, like talk about 1:01:09.840 --> 1:01:13.480 that that process, because so you still wind up with it, 1:01:13.560 --> 1:01:16.040 you still is you know, you still have people critical 1:01:16.080 --> 1:01:16.760 of wilderness. 1:01:16.880 --> 1:01:17.520 Yeah. 1:01:17.560 --> 1:01:20.200 Well so thinking back, I like where you started our 1:01:20.240 --> 1:01:24.120 conversation today, Steve and sharing some of those quotes, and no, 1:01:23.840 --> 1:01:28.840 no that doesn't seem relevant particularly, but where you did 1:01:28.920 --> 1:01:32.440 some of the language used in those quotes where Leopold 1:01:32.640 --> 1:01:36.080 is using language like beauty and love. 1:01:36.800 --> 1:01:38.040 There's there's. 1:01:39.720 --> 1:01:43.640 A number of points both in a Sand County Almanac 1:01:43.680 --> 1:01:46.960 and in many of his essays where he's using language 1:01:46.960 --> 1:01:56.320 that departs from the objective voice of a scientist. Right 1:01:56.800 --> 1:02:00.600 he he he wears it on his sleeve that these 1:02:00.640 --> 1:02:06.320 are these are places, are these are issues that are 1:02:06.440 --> 1:02:09.760 of deep importance to him, Right he clearly cares, which 1:02:10.680 --> 1:02:12.480 in the science realm, if you're working on a peer 1:02:12.480 --> 1:02:18.240 reviewed research paper, the culture of our western science approach 1:02:18.480 --> 1:02:22.720 is to purge virtually all of that from the conversation. 1:02:23.000 --> 1:02:25.240 And he and he was like very conscious of that, 1:02:25.360 --> 1:02:31.840 Like he wrote specifically about the need to balance the two. Yeah, 1:02:32.120 --> 1:02:36.000 Like there's some quote he has about like you don't 1:02:36.040 --> 1:02:40.080 need something like you don't need a PhD to see 1:02:40.120 --> 1:02:44.040 the land for what it is. But if you have 1:02:44.080 --> 1:02:47.200 a PhD, you run the risk of being like a 1:02:47.240 --> 1:02:51.040 mortician looking at a dead buy and you're not appreciating 1:02:51.080 --> 1:02:55.040 the actual what's you know, the magic of it, all 1:02:55.120 --> 1:02:55.560 the mystery. 1:02:55.600 --> 1:02:58.880 I'm going to hit you with it. It's damn it. 1:03:02.000 --> 1:03:03.760 I'll buy you just a minute, because the part that 1:03:03.800 --> 1:03:08.160 you're the part that you're getting into is it sort 1:03:08.200 --> 1:03:11.919 of represents an evolution of Leopold's thinking about the significance 1:03:11.960 --> 1:03:16.200 of these places in providing opportunities for people to participate 1:03:16.240 --> 1:03:18.440 in a form of outdoor recreation that he holds in 1:03:18.560 --> 1:03:22.000 very high regard, which is essentially observing and learning about 1:03:22.000 --> 1:03:30.680 the natural world. 1:03:32.680 --> 1:03:36.240 I think the other I mean, I'm not a leopoled expert, 1:03:36.280 --> 1:03:38.480 so I'm just sort of chiming in with what I've 1:03:38.640 --> 1:03:44.040 taken away. But yeah, one of his sort of utilitarian 1:03:46.280 --> 1:03:50.520 purposes that he identifies as specifically hunting pack trips. Yeah, 1:03:50.600 --> 1:03:52.920 in the HeLa, Yeah, He's like, we need places that 1:03:52.960 --> 1:03:54.920 can sustain a pack trip, And that's sort of his 1:03:55.040 --> 1:03:59.040 measurement of, like, what's a big enough chunk of wild country. 1:03:58.720 --> 1:04:00.600 Large enough to contain a two week trip. 1:04:00.680 --> 1:04:06.320 Yeah, and he's like, and I believe he proposed calling 1:04:06.360 --> 1:04:10.040 it like the the HeLa Hunting primitive hunting ground, Yeah, 1:04:10.040 --> 1:04:12.680 something like that. Really, Yeah, like it was baked into 1:04:12.720 --> 1:04:14.120 the idea. Yeah, so he had it. 1:04:14.160 --> 1:04:16.080 There was there was an article not included in a 1:04:16.120 --> 1:04:18.360 San County Almanac. I believe it was published an Outdoor Life, 1:04:18.360 --> 1:04:21.520 but it was entitled a Plea for Wilderness Hunting Grounds, 1:04:21.680 --> 1:04:23.480 where he lays this whole case out. So Steve, just 1:04:23.480 --> 1:04:25.240 going back to the question that you posed about what 1:04:25.360 --> 1:04:28.040 was the pragmatic argument that Leopold had to make, Because 1:04:28.040 --> 1:04:30.960 you're right, you can't necessarily go in with a bunch 1:04:31.000 --> 1:04:35.160 of flowery language about beauty and love and these emotive 1:04:35.600 --> 1:04:38.720 arguments that are that are such a compelling aspect of 1:04:38.720 --> 1:04:40.680 a San County Almanac and have that work in the 1:04:40.680 --> 1:04:44.760 bureaucratic space of a federal agency. So Leopold did bring 1:04:44.840 --> 1:04:48.720 a number of arguments and talking points to bear in 1:04:48.800 --> 1:04:51.360 support of this vision that were very pragmatic in nature, 1:04:51.400 --> 1:04:54.800 and one of the points was related to different forms 1:04:54.800 --> 1:04:58.520 of outdoor recreation. And he makes this argument essentially, if 1:04:58.560 --> 1:05:00.320 you have a whole universe of people who want to 1:05:00.320 --> 1:05:03.040 engage in different types of outdoor recreation. And you've got 1:05:03.080 --> 1:05:06.600 folks who want to go out in their ford and 1:05:06.720 --> 1:05:10.520 park and camp on the road side, and they've got 1:05:10.760 --> 1:05:13.880 ninety percent of the opportunity already locked up. And you've 1:05:13.880 --> 1:05:15.440 got other folks who want to be able to get 1:05:15.440 --> 1:05:17.320 off the beaten path and escape and get into the 1:05:17.360 --> 1:05:19.400 back country and get away from all that and experience 1:05:19.440 --> 1:05:22.600 some solitude. Doesn't it make sense to maybe hold on 1:05:22.640 --> 1:05:25.640 to the remaining five percent or ten percent and try 1:05:25.680 --> 1:05:28.200 to provide a diversity of opportunity types for the different 1:05:28.240 --> 1:05:31.400 ways that people want to engage. So that was one 1:05:31.440 --> 1:05:33.200 aspect of the argument. And then in the case of 1:05:33.240 --> 1:05:38.480 the HeLa, one of the points that he makes that 1:05:39.320 --> 1:05:40.600 maybe helped carry the day. 1:05:40.720 --> 1:05:41.720 And you've a. 1:05:41.680 --> 1:05:43.000 Number of us in the room have been down in 1:05:43.000 --> 1:05:45.600 that chunk of ground. It is rugged, it is gnarly, 1:05:45.640 --> 1:05:47.360 and it is not a place where getting at that 1:05:47.440 --> 1:05:50.640 timber would be particularly easy to do. And so he 1:05:50.680 --> 1:05:53.000 also makes an economic argument that in the case of 1:05:53.000 --> 1:05:56.160 the HeLa, at least that landscape, you'd have to put 1:05:56.240 --> 1:06:01.120 so much investment in the infrastructure to access the resources 1:06:01.120 --> 1:06:04.680 that you want to extract that the net gain wouldn't 1:06:04.680 --> 1:06:08.680 really be all that big anyway, So maybe just don't 1:06:08.720 --> 1:06:11.880 mess with it and keep it wild and spare yourself 1:06:11.960 --> 1:06:16.360 the hassle of all of that additional road building and infrastructure. 1:06:16.800 --> 1:06:18.400 So yeah, I feel like in a fact at a 1:06:18.440 --> 1:06:23.160 time he had said basically giving into the giving into 1:06:23.200 --> 1:06:27.360 the value thing, saying okay, let's talk about. 1:06:27.200 --> 1:06:29.479 Value, right, like you're saying economic values. 1:06:29.600 --> 1:06:34.360 Yeah, He's like, like, arguably the greatest value of this 1:06:34.480 --> 1:06:39.440 in time will just be itself. Yeah, And a criticism 1:06:39.520 --> 1:06:41.520 you hear a wilderness areas as you hear people say 1:06:41.600 --> 1:06:45.600 like it's a lot of rock. I mean, like like 1:06:45.640 --> 1:06:47.520 you go you look at a mountain range out here, 1:06:47.560 --> 1:06:48.800 you know, and be like, well, let me guess where 1:06:48.800 --> 1:06:51.440 the wilderness area is. It's up there at the back. 1:06:51.960 --> 1:06:54.000 It's like at the back end. And in time, know 1:06:54.040 --> 1:06:57.720 what we now know there's probably enormous mineral there's probably 1:06:57.920 --> 1:07:01.400 enormous mineral wealth in a lot of these places. 1:07:01.640 --> 1:07:01.840 Yep. 1:07:02.280 --> 1:07:05.520 Right, Like in hindsight, a gelgist might now be like 1:07:05.600 --> 1:07:09.000 being like, boys, you set the wrong stuff aside, because 1:07:09.680 --> 1:07:13.880 like gold whatever the hell in those hills. At the time, 1:07:14.000 --> 1:07:17.840 though you could kind of go, well, look at it, yeah, 1:07:17.880 --> 1:07:22.640 like what really what are we really leaving on the table. 1:07:22.680 --> 1:07:24.480 It's a pragmatic decision. 1:07:24.560 --> 1:07:27.000 Yeah, it's not like there's not a ton of mature timber, 1:07:27.960 --> 1:07:29.760 you know, in some not all, but in a lot 1:07:29.760 --> 1:07:31.919 of the wilderness areas. It's like, it's like, be hard, 1:07:31.960 --> 1:07:33.800 it's not a lot of it. It's hard to get 1:07:33.800 --> 1:07:35.800 at a lot of rock, a lot of ice. 1:07:36.120 --> 1:07:37.600 Yep, yeah, rock and ice is set. 1:07:37.760 --> 1:07:40.080 It's like, we're just not leaving a ton of money 1:07:40.120 --> 1:07:42.560 on the table, and in time it might be that 1:07:42.600 --> 1:07:44.320 people are just glad to have that stuff. 1:07:44.400 --> 1:07:46.920 Yeah, there's a good chance Leopold wouldn't have won that 1:07:47.080 --> 1:07:47.880 argument today. 1:07:48.160 --> 1:07:50.880 Oh if you if Leopold, no today for sure. And 1:07:50.920 --> 1:07:52.720 if Leopold would have said, like I got an idea, 1:07:52.960 --> 1:07:55.960 all these big, huge valleys in the West, let's make 1:07:56.000 --> 1:07:58.600 these all giant riparian wilderness areas. 1:07:59.120 --> 1:07:59.480 Noah. 1:08:00.040 --> 1:08:02.000 Yeah, he had to point to the stuff that was 1:08:02.040 --> 1:08:04.840 like no one had touched and been like, listen, no 1:08:04.840 --> 1:08:07.200 one's gonna no one's gonna mess with that. 1:08:07.600 --> 1:08:08.400 Yeah, I just said it. 1:08:08.400 --> 1:08:08.800 Aside. 1:08:08.960 --> 1:08:10.640 Well, and a lot of the stuff that you're talking about, 1:08:10.680 --> 1:08:14.600 like the Ryperian Valley wilderness model, a lot of that 1:08:14.640 --> 1:08:17.519 was already wrote it up. You know, like if you 1:08:17.560 --> 1:08:20.000 think about that point in history, so nineteen twenty four, 1:08:20.040 --> 1:08:23.719 and you look at the remaining chunks of big wild country, 1:08:23.720 --> 1:08:26.759 And in a couple of these essays, Leopold highlights specific places. 1:08:26.800 --> 1:08:30.439 Another spot in New Mexico, he specifically specifically highlights as 1:08:30.479 --> 1:08:32.920 the Pecos up on the border between the Santa Fe 1:08:33.000 --> 1:08:36.639 and Carson National Forest northeast to Santa Fe, as another 1:08:36.840 --> 1:08:40.280 sort of opportunity. And coincidentally, the Pecost Wilderness was also 1:08:40.320 --> 1:08:43.600 included in that original batch of congressionally designated areas in 1:08:43.640 --> 1:08:46.559 nineteen sixty four. But there were not that many of 1:08:46.600 --> 1:08:49.800 them left, is the point. There had already been so 1:08:49.880 --> 1:08:51.000 much expansion. 1:08:50.560 --> 1:08:53.799 Of the of the road network in congressation, just throwing 1:08:53.880 --> 1:08:57.840 money at building roads. Yeah, both on the agency side 1:08:57.880 --> 1:09:00.479 and you know in the state side. 1:09:00.920 --> 1:09:03.240 Brody talk about or touch on what you were saying 1:09:03.240 --> 1:09:04.919 that you wouldn't be able to pull it off now. 1:09:05.080 --> 1:09:09.080 Well, I mean it's it's an argument that's been going 1:09:09.120 --> 1:09:12.680 on since for one hundred years, right, Like there are 1:09:12.720 --> 1:09:15.960 those people who will want to extract resources from it. 1:09:16.400 --> 1:09:19.160 So what good is it if it doesn't pay pay 1:09:19.160 --> 1:09:22.920 off in some way, some tangible way. But there's also 1:09:23.800 --> 1:09:25.880 I mean, you still hear this argument. You know, as 1:09:25.880 --> 1:09:28.559 far as the wilderness hunting area goes, there are people 1:09:28.640 --> 1:09:32.760 who are like, I can't get in there, you know 1:09:32.800 --> 1:09:36.439 what I mean? Like, yeah, like you young fellas that 1:09:36.520 --> 1:09:39.000 can hike all day long can get in there, but 1:09:39.040 --> 1:09:42.080 it doesn't do me any good. I've heard you say like, 1:09:42.600 --> 1:09:43.599 well you had your time. 1:09:43.800 --> 1:09:45.680 But well, Jim, I was gonna say, you remember how 1:09:45.760 --> 1:09:50.320 Jim Poswitz the conservationists, Yeah, Jim Poswitz put it. He's like, 1:09:51.280 --> 1:09:54.640 I used to get back in there. I'm too old now, 1:09:54.680 --> 1:09:57.200 I've been too old for a long time. But man, 1:09:57.240 --> 1:09:59.320 am I excited for you guys that can Yeah? 1:09:59.400 --> 1:10:02.720 Yeah, but I think these days it's more of a 1:10:02.800 --> 1:10:07.040 resource extraction thing that would not allow it to go 1:10:07.120 --> 1:10:07.920 down the way it did. 1:10:08.160 --> 1:10:13.960 This is a frustration I have about memory and politics 1:10:13.960 --> 1:10:19.120 in America would be and I say this every time 1:10:19.120 --> 1:10:22.200 the subject of Roosevelt comes up. I'm like, any politician 1:10:23.840 --> 1:10:28.400 would welcome a favorable comparison to Roosevelt on conservation. 1:10:27.960 --> 1:10:30.200 Record, right, yep. 1:10:33.960 --> 1:10:35.799 They would hang that guy from a tree nowadays. 1:10:36.000 --> 1:10:39.320 Yeah, and the amazing thing about the wilderness. 1:10:38.760 --> 1:10:42.800 And they wanted to then he would be a he 1:10:42.840 --> 1:10:48.960 would be regarded today as an insane lib tard tree hugger, 1:10:50.080 --> 1:10:52.400 but because he wanted to create a national force and 1:10:52.439 --> 1:10:55.400 people were pissed back then, but they were living, and 1:10:55.439 --> 1:10:57.920 now we're like, oh, let's carve him on a big mountain. 1:10:58.720 --> 1:11:01.839 Sure they felt that God he gave us the national 1:11:01.880 --> 1:11:04.240 force system. The same people that would be pissed now 1:11:05.520 --> 1:11:07.760 were pissed then, the same thing with with with with 1:11:07.840 --> 1:11:12.679 Leopold Leopold, I bring up all the time, the fact 1:11:12.680 --> 1:11:15.040 that the Wilderness Act passed the way it did. You 1:11:15.080 --> 1:11:17.120 wouldn't never pass the point. 1:11:16.880 --> 1:11:18.920 That I'm trying to make, like there was a time 1:11:19.000 --> 1:11:22.360 when both sides were like, this is a really good idea. 1:11:23.080 --> 1:11:26.559 It makes sense, like for a lot of reasons, Like 1:11:27.160 --> 1:11:31.400 one dissenter wasn't there in Congress, and only because. 1:11:31.520 --> 1:11:32.519 It wasn't big enough. 1:11:33.439 --> 1:11:36.360 Yeah it was. It was something like the senator, one 1:11:36.400 --> 1:11:41.599 of them. They both were like overwhelmingly and I think, yeah, 1:11:41.880 --> 1:11:43.200 this is something I talked about all the time. I 1:11:43.280 --> 1:11:43.920 gonna talk about it. 1:11:44.080 --> 1:11:47.240 What's interesting about Leopold, I think, is that he's got 1:11:47.600 --> 1:11:51.360 these two sides, Like he speaks the language of utility, 1:11:51.560 --> 1:11:56.320 and he also he's a talented enough writer and a 1:11:56.360 --> 1:11:59.719 deep enough thinker that he also has like this element 1:11:59.760 --> 1:12:03.479 of the row and sure mirror and you can sort 1:12:03.479 --> 1:12:07.920 of see what you want in him when you read it. 1:12:08.120 --> 1:12:10.920 You know, like you could you could have someone on 1:12:11.040 --> 1:12:14.639 the far left read this and think, oh, like he's 1:12:14.720 --> 1:12:19.080 in touch with the spiritual aspects of nature. And you 1:12:19.080 --> 1:12:21.880 could also, you know, people on the right side of 1:12:21.880 --> 1:12:23.720 the spectrum look at him and be like, here's a 1:12:23.840 --> 1:12:30.759 very like agency man. You know, forester works on the land, 1:12:30.880 --> 1:12:35.519 like has this sort of rural authenticity about him, which 1:12:35.560 --> 1:12:39.679 I find like there's just I don't know, I find 1:12:39.720 --> 1:12:42.200 like it's really he's he's hard to sort of wrap. 1:12:41.920 --> 1:12:44.519 Your mind or you can't box him up. 1:12:44.920 --> 1:12:46.880 He's a poet, yeah, exactly. 1:12:46.479 --> 1:12:50.439 He's a poet, he's a farmer, he's a forester. He's 1:12:50.479 --> 1:12:54.840 a big game hunter. You can't box him up. And 1:12:54.840 --> 1:12:57.439 that gave him room to do what he did, Yeah, 1:12:57.600 --> 1:13:00.439 because people had to take him seriously. And there's also 1:13:00.479 --> 1:13:02.360 a little bit of a he's going to be the 1:13:02.360 --> 1:13:06.360 smartest guy in the room, oh yeah, you know, which 1:13:06.720 --> 1:13:16.599 is hard for people to fight against sometimes darkness speaking 1:13:16.600 --> 1:13:19.679 of the smartest guy in the room, the smartest guybaby Doug. 1:13:20.320 --> 1:13:22.400 Let's move. Let's let's move into our set. What do 1:13:22.479 --> 1:13:25.080 you call the diamond anniversary? What's a one hundred? 1:13:25.160 --> 1:13:25.639 You believe? 1:13:26.320 --> 1:13:30.960 What's the hundred? Platinum? Airlines had to think of a 1:13:30.960 --> 1:13:37.080 new thing? Silver diamond? 1:13:37.520 --> 1:13:38.759 Does come after the diamond? 1:13:39.280 --> 1:13:40.519 No? Diamond? 1:13:40.560 --> 1:13:42.400 I think one. 1:13:42.240 --> 1:13:48.559 Hundred, centennial, centennial, obsidian, obsidian. If you said to me 1:13:48.600 --> 1:13:48.920 you want to. 1:13:48.920 --> 1:13:54.200 Hunker, natural, other other terms that are like natural. 1:13:53.880 --> 1:13:59.840 The obsidian anniversary. Who are these people, the centennial people who. 1:13:59.800 --> 1:14:02.280 Have the interest in obsidian? 1:14:02.360 --> 1:14:07.599 Apparently so big obsidian one hundred to your anniversary? Yeah, well, 1:14:07.760 --> 1:14:09.240 I got Well, I got one last question before we 1:14:09.280 --> 1:14:11.240 move into San Countie Almanac, which I want you both, 1:14:11.240 --> 1:14:14.640 you guys to talk about. But if you had to 1:14:14.680 --> 1:14:22.720 crystal ball it, okay, if he hadn't did, if he 1:14:22.760 --> 1:14:25.280 hadn't set this concept into motion when he did with 1:14:25.360 --> 1:14:29.000 the Heila, do you feel that we would have landed 1:14:29.000 --> 1:14:31.080 where we did anyway with wilderness areas? 1:14:31.439 --> 1:14:35.639 No, you don't, I think he I think. 1:14:36.680 --> 1:14:36.800 So. 1:14:36.880 --> 1:14:38.880 There's there's a lot of other rich history we could 1:14:38.880 --> 1:14:42.520 get into. Another very cool example from up in Colorado, 1:14:42.840 --> 1:14:45.920 like in the in the White River National Forest, flat 1:14:45.920 --> 1:14:48.240 tops wilderness area. There's a place called Trappers Lake. 1:14:48.280 --> 1:14:49.639 There's Jianni's old stop ground. 1:14:49.800 --> 1:14:52.280 Yeah, so you know Trappers Lake, right the story there. 1:14:52.840 --> 1:14:59.719 There was a another Forest Service colleague, Arthur Carhart, who 1:15:00.160 --> 1:15:02.519 helped inform some conversations about it. 1:15:02.600 --> 1:15:05.040 Had one pair of stiff bibs on and some stiff. 1:15:04.760 --> 1:15:07.400 Bibs that they got supple when they were broken in. 1:15:08.640 --> 1:15:11.760 It became real trendy about the pros and cons of 1:15:11.800 --> 1:15:18.040 developing more infrastructure on that Trapper's Lake property for recreation 1:15:18.360 --> 1:15:20.280 and debating whether or not it would be better left 1:15:20.479 --> 1:15:26.080 with an undeveloped lake shore. He had folks up in 1:15:26.320 --> 1:15:30.600 what's today the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness advocating for 1:15:30.800 --> 1:15:34.640 the importance of that wild landscape. But I think for 1:15:34.720 --> 1:15:38.240 a concrete administrative step to be taken in nineteen twenty 1:15:38.280 --> 1:15:39.680 four and to be able to hold that up as 1:15:39.680 --> 1:15:43.400 an example and an extension of that. One of the 1:15:43.400 --> 1:15:45.800 things that's really challenging about Leopold is there's so many 1:15:45.840 --> 1:15:49.160 different little anecdotes and alleyways that you can go down. 1:15:49.200 --> 1:15:51.479 But we didn't even mention the fact that he's one 1:15:51.479 --> 1:15:54.960 of the founders of the Wilderness Society as well. So 1:15:56.800 --> 1:15:59.559 not only was he advocating for that specific piece of 1:15:59.600 --> 1:16:03.040 ground to be administratively designated, but he was also instrumental 1:16:03.600 --> 1:16:08.400 in convening a community of other thought leaders to help 1:16:08.520 --> 1:16:14.080 push that vision more broadly, and that organization is still 1:16:14.840 --> 1:16:18.920 alive and robust today. But I don't think we would 1:16:18.920 --> 1:16:24.519 be in remotely the same situation with Howard Zohneiser's success 1:16:24.600 --> 1:16:28.720 in shepherding the Wilderness Act through to signature in September 1:16:28.760 --> 1:16:33.680 of sixty four without not just the HeLa, but all 1:16:33.680 --> 1:16:35.960 of that hustling that Leopold was a part of leading 1:16:36.040 --> 1:16:39.000 up to the HeLa and after the hela's administrative designation, 1:16:39.720 --> 1:16:41.519 and right through the end to the end of his life. 1:16:41.600 --> 1:16:43.439 I mean, these were concepts that he was helping try 1:16:43.479 --> 1:16:47.679 to advance and build community around into the late forties 1:16:47.760 --> 1:16:48.559 when he passed. 1:16:48.880 --> 1:16:51.240 Yeah, so that's a good point about the He was 1:16:51.760 --> 1:16:53.360 doing the conceptualization right. 1:16:53.720 --> 1:16:55.439 It wasn't just like the HeLa came into being and 1:16:55.439 --> 1:16:57.120 then he moved on to other things, right, that was 1:16:57.320 --> 1:17:00.680 a very important milestone on that timeline, But he was 1:17:00.720 --> 1:17:04.240 helping foster a ground swell of movement around those concepts 1:17:04.320 --> 1:17:05.400 much more broadly as well. 1:17:05.920 --> 1:17:10.000 He came at this interesting moment in American history, a 1:17:10.040 --> 1:17:13.400 really pivotal moment in American history where if you look 1:17:13.439 --> 1:17:19.800 at pre Leopold, like pre Roosevelt, pre Leopold, you have 1:17:19.960 --> 1:17:23.600 we had wilderness in spite of our best efforts to 1:17:23.640 --> 1:17:25.760 get rid of it, you know. 1:17:25.720 --> 1:17:26.040 What I mean. 1:17:26.120 --> 1:17:28.679 It was like it was there because we hadn't gotten 1:17:28.680 --> 1:17:33.280 to it yet. Yeah, and then there was this this 1:17:33.280 --> 1:17:37.280 this minute, this moment where it also became not a 1:17:37.280 --> 1:17:40.120 thing that we were we we we like fought foughtought, fought, 1:17:40.120 --> 1:17:42.960 fought to rid ourselves of it. Yeah, then all of 1:17:42.960 --> 1:17:46.240 a sudden it immediately had to become we fought, fought, fought, fought, 1:17:46.280 --> 1:17:49.439 fought to keep it. Right, Like a lot of countries 1:17:49.479 --> 1:17:52.280 never got never a lot of countries never had the 1:17:52.320 --> 1:17:56.680 luxury to hit that inflection point. Right, they barred, you know, 1:17:56.760 --> 1:18:00.800 they like go to great survivalent yea, like go to 1:18:00.880 --> 1:18:05.840 like England's history. Yeah, you know, I mean they deforced 1:18:06.760 --> 1:18:09.479 the entire island. Right, There was no like inflection point 1:18:09.479 --> 1:18:13.120 where someone had the sort of like power and public 1:18:13.200 --> 1:18:16.400 backing and wan not to go like, hey, at what 1:18:16.560 --> 1:18:21.320 point should we just not do this to some parts? 1:18:21.600 --> 1:18:25.519 And the quote that you read earlier about the trading 1:18:25.560 --> 1:18:30.240 off the geese for the television. I mean, I think 1:18:30.280 --> 1:18:35.560 what's really interesting when you read Leopold is he recognizes 1:18:35.600 --> 1:18:38.720 that conflict. He doesn't have like this utopian you know, 1:18:38.720 --> 1:18:43.639 if you look at like previous resource managers, there's this 1:18:43.840 --> 1:18:47.000 very like progressive idea of we can just manage it 1:18:47.000 --> 1:18:50.320 better and manage it better and squeeze everything out of it. 1:18:51.040 --> 1:18:55.040 And he recognizes these trade offs. And it strikes me 1:18:55.080 --> 1:19:00.200 as like a very fundamental concept to our modern sensibility 1:19:00.280 --> 1:19:06.200 about wildlife and environmental issues is like someone's good. You know, 1:19:06.680 --> 1:19:10.040 someone is going to pay somewhere for any little decision 1:19:10.040 --> 1:19:12.200 that's made. You know, like every bit of you know, 1:19:12.280 --> 1:19:14.680 sure you could, is the juice worth to squeeze? Is 1:19:14.760 --> 1:19:18.360 kind of Leopold's big question and a lot of these things, 1:19:18.360 --> 1:19:19.559 and that's where it's sort of the ethic. 1:19:20.080 --> 1:19:23.639 He might be the father of fathers arguing with their 1:19:23.720 --> 1:19:28.240 kids about television. He might have been the first person 1:19:28.280 --> 1:19:29.760 that God bless him. He might have been like I 1:19:29.840 --> 1:19:34.759 picture a future conflict, yeah, between nature and TV. 1:19:35.880 --> 1:19:40.439 So that point you made Steve about sort of the 1:19:40.479 --> 1:19:43.519 tipping point between wilderness being this thing that we're stacked 1:19:43.600 --> 1:19:45.920 up against versus wilderness being this thing that we're trying 1:19:45.920 --> 1:19:51.080 to steward. One of the things Leopold had to say 1:19:51.080 --> 1:19:53.080 in that space, I'll try to I'll try to quote 1:19:53.120 --> 1:19:54.680 it here, but it gets at that idea that you 1:19:54.680 --> 1:19:56.880 were hitting earlier, on the blank place on the map. 1:19:57.680 --> 1:20:02.080 He talks about man always killing the things we love, 1:20:02.920 --> 1:20:06.000 and so we the pioneers, have killed our wilderness. 1:20:06.360 --> 1:20:08.920 You be that as it may. I am glad. 1:20:09.479 --> 1:20:12.680 I will never be young without wild country, to be 1:20:12.800 --> 1:20:16.439 young in of what avails our forty freedoms without a 1:20:16.439 --> 1:20:17.840 blank spot on the map. 1:20:17.960 --> 1:20:19.280 He did what his eyes closed. 1:20:20.040 --> 1:20:21.559 I think, I think that's the quote I was trying 1:20:21.600 --> 1:20:23.680 to get at earlier, and then Steve before we move off, 1:20:23.680 --> 1:20:24.559 got written back there. 1:20:24.600 --> 1:20:25.600 I want to, I want to. 1:20:26.160 --> 1:20:28.719 I want to touch on just like two very quickly, 1:20:28.720 --> 1:20:31.880 two principles that I think, in and of themselves could 1:20:31.920 --> 1:20:33.400 be a whole other conversation. 1:20:33.520 --> 1:20:35.280 But hit him then we're gonna get into the book. 1:20:35.320 --> 1:20:40.559 Well, hit him quick, so there is ample room to 1:20:40.600 --> 1:20:46.519 have a discussion about what the future for wilderness management 1:20:46.520 --> 1:20:49.640 holds and all of that complexity and what we know 1:20:49.840 --> 1:20:53.040 now that we didn't know at the time of Leopold's 1:20:53.040 --> 1:20:58.000 effort with the Hila or the Wilderness Act, and even 1:20:58.040 --> 1:21:00.880 the language in the Wilderness Act and the deeper history 1:21:00.920 --> 1:21:04.360 of these places. So a lot of that conceptualization of 1:21:04.360 --> 1:21:06.960 these wild lands is rooted on an idea that these 1:21:07.080 --> 1:21:11.439 places were uninhabited, the idea of terra nullius, that this 1:21:11.680 --> 1:21:15.880 was just wild land waiting to be So that's a 1:21:15.880 --> 1:21:18.720 whole that's a whole thing that needs to be acknowledged 1:21:18.800 --> 1:21:22.280 right it is. And in the Wilderness Act there's language 1:21:22.320 --> 1:21:26.160 of places where man is a visitor who does not remain. 1:21:27.000 --> 1:21:29.040 But in the case of the Hila, in the case 1:21:29.080 --> 1:21:30.720 of the Boundary Waters, in the case of every one 1:21:30.720 --> 1:21:33.400 of these places, there's a much deeper history that you know, 1:21:33.400 --> 1:21:35.160 a whole heck of a lot about, and we would 1:21:35.160 --> 1:21:37.280 be doing a disservice, I think, by just clossing over 1:21:37.320 --> 1:21:41.640 that reality. And then another aspect that I think is 1:21:41.680 --> 1:21:45.200 a nice segue to a Sand County Almanac, and I 1:21:45.240 --> 1:21:51.759 think the lifestyle that Doug lives, the lifestyle of Chester 1:21:52.160 --> 1:21:56.120 and the whole Floyd family with their property. This idea, 1:21:56.160 --> 1:21:58.160 and you've touched on it already on this podcast, Doug, 1:21:58.200 --> 1:22:04.040 but the idea of the reciprocal dynamic between providing what 1:22:04.200 --> 1:22:07.360 land needs from us and us getting what we need 1:22:07.400 --> 1:22:12.640 from the land. That active involvement, where human activity in 1:22:12.720 --> 1:22:16.320 a landscape can both make the land better and people better. 1:22:17.439 --> 1:22:21.720 A lot of the conservation and ecology discussions we have 1:22:21.920 --> 1:22:24.439 at this point in history are rooted in the notion 1:22:24.560 --> 1:22:26.920 that all people do is screw stuff up. You've got 1:22:26.920 --> 1:22:30.519 too many people, we're burning too much fossil fuels, We're 1:22:30.560 --> 1:22:34.960 having this many impacts with overpopulation and all this development, etc. 1:22:35.200 --> 1:22:35.400 Etc. 1:22:36.560 --> 1:22:39.400 But we are also capable of providing so much value 1:22:39.439 --> 1:22:42.200 to these places, just as these places provide so much 1:22:42.280 --> 1:22:45.479 value to us as human beings. And in the case 1:22:45.560 --> 1:22:49.000 of wilderness, one of the foundational tenets there is this 1:22:49.080 --> 1:22:51.800 idea of an untrammeled landscape, a place where we're not 1:22:52.000 --> 1:22:54.880 meddling in the system, and that made a lot of 1:22:54.920 --> 1:22:59.160 sense in nineteen sixty four. And as we're moving forward 1:22:59.160 --> 1:23:01.280 and trying to wrestle with some of these big conservation 1:23:01.760 --> 1:23:05.320 challenges of non native invasive species and climate change and 1:23:05.360 --> 1:23:10.200 the disruption of historic disturbance regimes like fire, we are 1:23:11.080 --> 1:23:14.760 quickly awakening to the fact that the land needs a 1:23:14.800 --> 1:23:18.840 lot from us. In terms of active management and taking 1:23:18.880 --> 1:23:22.680 a totally hands off approach in a lot of situations 1:23:23.479 --> 1:23:27.320 does not necessarily serve ecological outcomes. So that's a good 1:23:27.320 --> 1:23:29.479 pivot to thinking about a Sand County Almanac and this 1:23:29.520 --> 1:23:32.360 reciprocal relationship between land and people. What does the land 1:23:32.360 --> 1:23:32.840 need from us? 1:23:32.960 --> 1:23:35.920 It's a good pivot to talk about Doug because Doug 1:23:36.040 --> 1:23:40.040 started Doug has started an organization. When I talked about 1:23:40.080 --> 1:23:43.040 Doug's quote earlier, I'm going to talk about the contextualized 1:23:43.360 --> 1:23:47.360 contextualized Doug's quote. Doug has started an organization, a nonprofit 1:23:47.400 --> 1:23:53.600 group called Sharing the Land, and looking at the increasing 1:23:53.720 --> 1:23:58.080 trend we see all around the country of leasing agreements, 1:23:58.479 --> 1:24:02.280 like it's birthplace was in Texas, but it's it's spread everywhere. 1:24:02.280 --> 1:24:04.240 It's everywhere. It's in the it's in the Northern Rockies, 1:24:04.360 --> 1:24:09.080 it's everywhere now, which is landowners who might have traditionally 1:24:10.280 --> 1:24:14.200 generations passed their fathers, their mothers, might have just had 1:24:16.000 --> 1:24:19.840 granted permissions to neighbors, granted permissions to relatives, granted permissions 1:24:19.800 --> 1:24:21.559 to whoever it was. When I grew up, it was 1:24:21.640 --> 1:24:24.479 like loosey goosey. We hunted this the zerlots farm. We 1:24:24.520 --> 1:24:28.280 hunted the zeld Rose farm shiitloads of people hunted the Zerlots. 1:24:28.760 --> 1:24:31.120 Very much of their church hunted the Zerlots farm and 1:24:31.240 --> 1:24:33.280 the zeld Rose farm. And then it kind of came 1:24:33.360 --> 1:24:36.280 this awareness of like, oh, man, we have like as 1:24:36.360 --> 1:24:39.800 much as we're raising they raised apples, alfalfa, dairy, right, 1:24:39.800 --> 1:24:43.240 They're like, man, there's another like cash crop here in 1:24:43.280 --> 1:24:46.479 the cash crop, here is wildlife, right and people want 1:24:46.520 --> 1:24:50.200 it and they're willing to pay for it. So leasing 1:24:50.280 --> 1:24:52.439 as come in, You're not going to change it to 1:24:52.560 --> 1:24:55.240 just come in. And when when Doug looked at sharing 1:24:55.280 --> 1:24:58.880 the land and started to set up this organization, he's 1:24:58.920 --> 1:25:03.120 taking the same perspective like there's a landowner and the 1:25:03.200 --> 1:25:06.120 landowner holds a thing of value and there's people that 1:25:06.160 --> 1:25:08.519 want access to the thing of value it Well, rather 1:25:08.560 --> 1:25:12.960 than maybe taking that interest and leveraging it into cash payment, 1:25:14.280 --> 1:25:16.120 maybe we can solve that question of what does the 1:25:16.200 --> 1:25:20.080 land get out of it? So landowners through Shane Land, 1:25:20.439 --> 1:25:23.880 a landowner can have conservation work they wish they could 1:25:23.880 --> 1:25:25.760 do on their place. I wish I could do tree 1:25:25.800 --> 1:25:27.840 planning on my place. I wish I could take up 1:25:27.840 --> 1:25:30.200 old fences on my place. I wish I could fight 1:25:30.320 --> 1:25:33.720 non native invasive plants on my place. I wish I 1:25:33.720 --> 1:25:38.519 could restore my stream bakes on my place. Well, those 1:25:38.560 --> 1:25:40.559 hunters that are lined up waiting to hunt your place, 1:25:40.600 --> 1:25:44.880 put them to work, right, like through an organized fashion. 1:25:45.040 --> 1:25:47.880 Be like, here's your choor list, buddy, you know, and 1:25:49.439 --> 1:25:52.080 then let's talk about hunting. Let's get some chores done 1:25:52.320 --> 1:25:54.600 on the ground, right And that's kind of it's a 1:25:54.720 --> 1:25:56.200 very Leopold concept, right. 1:25:56.560 --> 1:26:03.559 Well, the concept was inspired, borrowed, possibly even stolen, but 1:26:04.120 --> 1:26:06.800 from Leopold and the idea of the Riley Game Cooperative. 1:26:07.920 --> 1:26:11.160 When Leopold, when he was living in Madison in the 1:26:11.160 --> 1:26:14.880 early thirties, looking for a place to hunt, he pulls 1:26:14.960 --> 1:26:16.320 up on the side of the road and here's a 1:26:16.360 --> 1:26:19.320 farmer working, and he starts chatting with him, this fellow 1:26:19.360 --> 1:26:23.599 named Ruben Paulson, And he gets around to that where 1:26:23.600 --> 1:26:28.920 one would about asking permission, and Paulson says, well, yeah, 1:26:28.920 --> 1:26:30.720 I guess you could hunt my place, but you know, 1:26:30.840 --> 1:26:34.599 I have to tell you there really isn't much game 1:26:34.640 --> 1:26:38.760 around here. And he thought it was because of trespassers 1:26:38.800 --> 1:26:41.120 more than anything else. Or poachers is actually what he 1:26:41.200 --> 1:26:45.240 called him. And Leopold one. I have this vision of 1:26:45.280 --> 1:26:48.160 these two guys meeting, you know, because people do stop, 1:26:48.240 --> 1:26:53.160 and I just have this vision of this meeting. And 1:26:53.240 --> 1:26:58.160 Leopold in that moment said to him, well, you know, 1:26:58.760 --> 1:27:01.680 you could have more a game if you had better habitat. 1:27:02.800 --> 1:27:07.600 And they came up with this idea, as as Leopold 1:27:07.640 --> 1:27:10.280 called it, and there Riley was born the Riley Game Cooperative, 1:27:10.320 --> 1:27:15.759 where his his buddies from town came out and Leopold 1:27:15.760 --> 1:27:18.840 put a plan together and then helped his buddies helped 1:27:18.840 --> 1:27:24.360 put implement that plan, and then they all they all 1:27:24.400 --> 1:27:30.040 benefited from that that work, and the land benefited, the 1:27:30.280 --> 1:27:34.400 members of the biotic community benefited, and the hunters and 1:27:34.479 --> 1:27:38.040 the farmers benefited. And from that a community also developed. 1:27:38.479 --> 1:27:45.519 That it became a community, a gathering of people who 1:27:45.680 --> 1:27:48.200 shared those ideas, and some of them kind of came 1:27:48.240 --> 1:27:50.080 to it because of that, and some of them were 1:27:50.120 --> 1:27:53.240 farmers and some of them were students of Leopold. Is 1:27:53.280 --> 1:27:55.880 a fascinating thing to me. You know. I learned about 1:27:55.920 --> 1:27:58.720 Riley about the same time I met you, and it 1:27:58.760 --> 1:28:01.080 was about fifteen years ago, and I was riding a 1:28:01.120 --> 1:28:04.640 bicycle through Riley and here's this they're putting up this kiosk, 1:28:04.880 --> 1:28:07.000 and it's I had no idea. I thought I knew 1:28:07.000 --> 1:28:09.880 a lot about Leopold, you know. And then they talk 1:28:09.960 --> 1:28:13.360 about there's this whole thing about the Riley Game Cooperative, 1:28:14.040 --> 1:28:17.280 and Uh, it's something that was in my head for 1:28:17.320 --> 1:28:21.120 a long time. And so that's where sharing the land 1:28:21.200 --> 1:28:22.160 was was born from. 1:28:23.000 --> 1:28:27.760 Uh And can you can you explain you got to 1:28:27.920 --> 1:28:31.000 him coming to Madison, Okay and his and we talked 1:28:31.000 --> 1:28:34.200 earlier about all the states that claim them. Can you, 1:28:34.280 --> 1:28:39.599 being from Wisconsin, can you set up what what Sand County? 1:28:39.760 --> 1:28:42.519 If you're looking for that on the map, what that is? 1:28:42.720 --> 1:28:44.840 Yeah, you won't. You won't find a Sand county that 1:28:44.880 --> 1:28:48.959 I'm aware of. But he was in uh near Barriboom 1:28:49.160 --> 1:28:52.960 in sauc County, right on the Wisconsin River. In the 1:28:53.000 --> 1:28:57.439 Wisconsin River is very sandy. That whole area is is 1:28:57.880 --> 1:29:01.400 Wisconsin Rivers, ever changing river. There's lots of sand, a 1:29:01.400 --> 1:29:06.760 lot of sand dunes, sandbars and a little side note, 1:29:06.800 --> 1:29:09.519 he ended up buying this piece of land sounds like 1:29:09.560 --> 1:29:11.800 pretty much for the back taxes that it was an 1:29:11.840 --> 1:29:17.600 abandoned farm. So if you're in Wisconsin and southwest Wisconsin, 1:29:17.720 --> 1:29:20.320 it's right on the banks of the Wisconsin River. So 1:29:20.560 --> 1:29:23.640 from our place, I guess you wouldn't necessarily know, but 1:29:24.040 --> 1:29:27.559 to the east of us on the Wisconsin River and 1:29:27.920 --> 1:29:30.719 very thirty miles away, and it's very very different terrain 1:29:30.760 --> 1:29:36.320 than what we have over in our driftless area, very sandy, 1:29:36.560 --> 1:29:39.920 lots of bogginess and water, lots of mosquitoes if you 1:29:40.000 --> 1:29:44.560 go over there. So a very different place, but about 1:29:45.439 --> 1:29:47.719 a half an hour forty five minute drive from Madison, 1:29:48.360 --> 1:29:52.240 and it was, you know, it was within reach and 1:29:52.760 --> 1:29:55.600 sounds like for the most part, it was exactly the 1:29:55.640 --> 1:29:58.599 property that he was looking for, the kind of property 1:29:58.600 --> 1:30:01.800 he was looking for, one that had been degraded that 1:30:01.840 --> 1:30:06.920 he could then practice these conservation ideas that he had 1:30:06.960 --> 1:30:10.960 been talking about, the whole idea of wildlife ecology and 1:30:11.000 --> 1:30:15.040 what kind of habitat that the wildlife that he was 1:30:15.040 --> 1:30:17.200 interested in, and that we tend to be interested in 1:30:17.240 --> 1:30:23.280 it as hunters, what kind of habitat they needed. And 1:30:23.360 --> 1:30:25.440 so he bought this and began working. 1:30:25.080 --> 1:30:37.080 On which you guys, best equipped you can decide among yourselves, 1:30:37.400 --> 1:30:42.640 is best equipped to explain what a Sand County Almanac 1:30:42.880 --> 1:30:48.000 is meaning like structurally meaning And I don't even know 1:30:48.040 --> 1:30:51.280 the details on it. He was dead when it came out, right, 1:30:51.800 --> 1:30:54.160 he did, and he didn't sit down and write it 1:30:54.240 --> 1:30:58.439 like beginning, middle end, like you write a book. Yeah, 1:30:58.520 --> 1:31:01.600 do you know that? That's about the extent of what 1:31:01.640 --> 1:31:04.480 I understood. That what I've come to understand. 1:31:06.360 --> 1:31:10.880 He had been putting these essays together in a logical manner, 1:31:10.960 --> 1:31:17.680 or what he thought was a logical manner, and his daughter, I. 1:31:17.640 --> 1:31:19.600 Think it was his sons who took I think the 1:31:19.720 --> 1:31:22.200 kids had a critical role in working with the publisher 1:31:22.240 --> 1:31:24.880 after he had gotten a letter of acceptance for. 1:31:24.880 --> 1:31:29.600 The Yeah, the book had been accepted, but it wasn't completely. 1:31:30.080 --> 1:31:33.120 It was a more those individual essays were not like 1:31:33.320 --> 1:31:35.080 previously published another place. 1:31:35.080 --> 1:31:36.640 Well, so if you look right at the right at 1:31:36.640 --> 1:31:38.920 the beginning, I've got my copy here in front of me. 1:31:39.160 --> 1:31:41.200 And one of the first things that you see as 1:31:41.520 --> 1:31:44.879 a grateful acknowledgment made to the editors of the following 1:31:44.880 --> 1:31:48.520 magazines and journals who have kindly allowed to be reprinted 1:31:48.560 --> 1:31:52.679 in book form from portions or all of individual articles. 1:31:52.720 --> 1:31:58.760 And here's a list of the periodicals. American Forests, Audubon Magazine, 1:31:59.840 --> 1:32:04.920 The Condor Journal of Forestry, Journal, of Wildlife Management. 1:32:04.520 --> 1:32:05.320 Meter dot com. 1:32:05.600 --> 1:32:09.400 Uh, perhaps if you'd been in existence at that point. 1:32:09.640 --> 1:32:20.080 Outdoor America, Silent Wings, Wisconsin Agriculturist and Farmer, Wisconsin Conservation Bulletin. 1:32:20.120 --> 1:32:21.080 So on. 1:32:21.200 --> 1:32:24.000 Parts of a Sand County almanac appeared in the Wisconsin 1:32:24.080 --> 1:32:30.120 Conservation is Bulletin's. 1:32:27.600 --> 1:32:30.840 I can give you the specifics so and actually one 1:32:30.840 --> 1:32:35.759 of my favorite essays Skydance, Burrow and Skydance. I believe 1:32:35.760 --> 1:32:37.519 that's right, if I've got the order here. There's a 1:32:37.520 --> 1:32:40.120 lot of semi colons to make sense of. But the 1:32:40.160 --> 1:32:42.880 short answer is it's a collection of a life's worth 1:32:42.920 --> 1:32:44.400 of work that he brought some structure to. 1:32:45.840 --> 1:32:50.920 But when you're reading it, it isn't like that. No, I 1:32:51.000 --> 1:32:53.640 read it without knowing that. I read it like a 1:32:53.720 --> 1:32:56.360 dude sat down and wrote this book. Do you know 1:32:56.400 --> 1:32:58.320 what I mean. It's not like you know when you 1:32:58.360 --> 1:32:59.800 when you get a writer you like and you read 1:32:59.840 --> 1:33:01.600 all their work and then you're stuck reading like the 1:33:01.640 --> 1:33:03.920 book of their like letters and correspondence, and this is 1:33:03.960 --> 1:33:07.880 how it's terrible. This is not that no, right, No. 1:33:07.960 --> 1:33:10.960 It's really it's really a lifetime of work. And I 1:33:10.960 --> 1:33:15.960 think that's one of the beauties of it. To me, 1:33:16.040 --> 1:33:19.160 the most beautiful thing is the first sentence in the 1:33:19.560 --> 1:33:21.680 or the first two sentences in the forward. There are 1:33:21.720 --> 1:33:24.559 those there are some who can live without wild things, 1:33:24.640 --> 1:33:28.599 and some who cannot. These essays are the delights and 1:33:28.680 --> 1:33:33.320 dilemmas of one who cannot. The delights and the dilemmas yep, 1:33:35.320 --> 1:33:39.000 And and then the rest of the book just goes 1:33:39.040 --> 1:33:42.880 from there, so divided in three parts. As A as 1:33:42.920 --> 1:33:45.880 a young man, a sixteen year old walked into the 1:33:46.240 --> 1:33:49.920 high school library and our librarian, I'm sure I was 1:33:49.960 --> 1:33:52.559 going into study or something and not talk to girls 1:33:52.600 --> 1:33:56.720 in the corner or anything. But miss Hendrix handed me 1:33:56.800 --> 1:33:59.880 the book and said, I think you'd be interested in that. 1:34:00.600 --> 1:34:01.760 Really, how old were you? 1:34:01.800 --> 1:34:01.960 Then? 1:34:02.240 --> 1:34:02.679 I'm sorry? 1:34:02.680 --> 1:34:03.680 What was this? 1:34:04.280 --> 1:34:06.920 When was that a long time ago? It was nineteen 1:34:07.240 --> 1:34:07.960 seventy five. 1:34:07.840 --> 1:34:10.559 Of the book had just come out. He was still 1:34:10.600 --> 1:34:12.320 writing as a as a new release. 1:34:13.600 --> 1:34:18.040 Well it wasn't, I mean, it wasn't immediately like this iconic, 1:34:18.600 --> 1:34:20.720 Oh not at all. Yeah, Yeah, that's why I was. Yeah, 1:34:20.760 --> 1:34:22.519 and I didn't think you were a teenager in nineteen 1:34:22.600 --> 1:34:25.439 forty nine. I was kind of curious because it was 1:34:25.439 --> 1:34:28.839 a slow burn up until the early seventies. 1:34:29.000 --> 1:34:32.519 Late so it was like, yeah, late sixties, like sixty 1:34:32.600 --> 1:34:34.559 nine I think was when it was published. In sixty 1:34:34.600 --> 1:34:36.800 eight or sixty nine is when it was published in paperback, 1:34:37.160 --> 1:34:40.639 and of course that coincided with the new environmental movement 1:34:40.680 --> 1:34:44.400 that was happening, and so it became, you know, incredibly 1:34:44.439 --> 1:34:47.080 important and really spoke to a lot. 1:34:46.920 --> 1:34:53.439 Of people, and it has sold millions, yeah, millions of. 1:34:53.400 --> 1:34:59.280 Copies in a bunch of different languages. So yeah, so 1:34:59.320 --> 1:35:03.720 I wasn't reading I was whatever in nineteen sixty eight 1:35:03.760 --> 1:35:06.679 or sixty nine. I was nine years old, but nineteen 1:35:06.720 --> 1:35:11.760 seventy five to have miss Hendrix, who was our librarian, 1:35:11.880 --> 1:35:15.639 hand this to me and say this, might you seem 1:35:15.680 --> 1:35:17.160 like kind a guy would be interested in this? 1:35:17.960 --> 1:35:19.040 And what a compliment? 1:35:19.240 --> 1:35:24.080 Yeah, well that is a great compliment. I think she 1:35:24.200 --> 1:35:28.080 was really searching for some way to get me moving 1:35:28.120 --> 1:35:32.000 along a little more. And at that time in my life, 1:35:32.040 --> 1:35:34.440 the first part of the book, which is the Phenology 1:35:34.640 --> 1:35:39.200 of our Area, really where he goes through the seasons 1:35:39.200 --> 1:35:40.960 and he talks about these different things. I was just 1:35:41.000 --> 1:35:43.559 fascinated by that because he was putting giving voice to 1:35:43.640 --> 1:35:46.640 things that I was I don't know if that I 1:35:46.680 --> 1:35:49.280 was thinking about him, but I was certainly experiencing them. 1:35:49.280 --> 1:35:50.960 You know, I was sixteen years old. We were going 1:35:51.040 --> 1:35:53.479 hunting and you're hearing this different stuff and what's this 1:35:53.600 --> 1:35:56.360 and what's that? And I had kind of Karl and 1:35:56.400 --> 1:35:58.360 I were talking about this earlier when we're having breakfast 1:35:58.479 --> 1:36:03.080 that I walked along with my grandfather when I was eight, nine, 1:36:03.120 --> 1:36:05.519 ten years old and with a bucket of paint and 1:36:05.520 --> 1:36:07.400 a paint rush and I was marketing. He was telling me, 1:36:07.479 --> 1:36:09.720 paint that one and I put these. So I was 1:36:09.760 --> 1:36:12.120 having the marking trees, marking trees, and I was having 1:36:12.160 --> 1:36:19.080 this experience that I didn't think about for another you know, 1:36:19.560 --> 1:36:23.000 fifty years that my grandpa was teaching me that, whether 1:36:23.040 --> 1:36:25.840 he knew he or not, but I remember as every 1:36:25.880 --> 1:36:29.599 eight or nine year old kid would ask why why 1:36:29.600 --> 1:36:30.920 do I paint this one? He said, well, we're going 1:36:30.960 --> 1:36:33.000 to cut that one, and then why are we cutting 1:36:33.000 --> 1:36:36.240 that one? I mean, that's that was one of my 1:36:36.280 --> 1:36:39.080 earliest experiences with that sort of thing. And then spending 1:36:39.120 --> 1:36:41.240 time on the farm with my dad. 1:36:41.360 --> 1:36:45.880 So by the time just button on neck, because it's 1:36:46.000 --> 1:36:47.920 interesting that you had that because you came from an 1:36:47.920 --> 1:36:51.680 agricultural family, and that you had an introduction to conservation 1:36:51.920 --> 1:36:58.800 thinking like that, like landscape care, landscape manipulation. I would 1:36:58.880 --> 1:37:04.080 say that I that I was completely unaware of anything 1:37:04.200 --> 1:37:09.040 surrounding conservation, the conservation movement until I read the San 1:37:09.120 --> 1:37:12.080 County Almanac. I was raised with the get it while 1:37:12.080 --> 1:37:12.880 the gitting's good. 1:37:14.080 --> 1:37:16.200 Yeah, yeah, I get it again. 1:37:16.320 --> 1:37:18.280 Like my dad was like brought up in a house 1:37:18.360 --> 1:37:21.720 where they spoke Italian. He was raised by Italian immigrants 1:37:22.600 --> 1:37:28.280 born in the Great Depression, right, the like these people 1:37:28.280 --> 1:37:34.120 aren't coming from Italy to be in the America in 1:37:34.200 --> 1:37:35.080 the Great Depression in. 1:37:37.240 --> 1:37:38.360 You know these. 1:37:38.200 --> 1:37:40.280 Trees, right, It's just like it was. It was good. 1:37:40.320 --> 1:37:43.080 All the getting's good was the attitude. And I didn't 1:37:43.080 --> 1:37:46.200 know about I didn't know about any of these even 1:37:46.360 --> 1:37:48.720 thoughts until I read a San County almac. So it's 1:37:48.760 --> 1:37:51.200 like to have an upbringing where he was at least 1:37:51.200 --> 1:37:53.960 talking about something you've been exposed to. That you picked 1:37:53.960 --> 1:37:55.200 this tree and not that tree. 1:37:55.280 --> 1:38:01.360 It's cool, right, oh yeah, And you know that because 1:38:01.360 --> 1:38:04.320 of the number of times visited my family. The reason 1:38:04.320 --> 1:38:06.840 they came from Germany in the eighteen fifties is they 1:38:06.840 --> 1:38:10.559 were looking for a place to set up sawmills, and 1:38:10.960 --> 1:38:14.880 they did over there en Durham Road, and then our 1:38:15.520 --> 1:38:18.800 and who knows whether the name was already named Durham 1:38:18.880 --> 1:38:23.920 Road or not. But the property that we own they 1:38:23.960 --> 1:38:27.719 bought because it had timber on it. My people weren't 1:38:27.760 --> 1:38:34.800 really farmers, they were sawyers. So my great great grandfather, 1:38:34.960 --> 1:38:39.160 my great grandfather, my grandfather all had sawmills. And they, 1:38:40.600 --> 1:38:42.639 you know, it's not like today where you're going through 1:38:42.680 --> 1:38:44.519 and you're just ripping. You can go through a lot 1:38:44.560 --> 1:38:47.479 of trees in a hurry. They were being selective about it. 1:38:48.800 --> 1:38:54.559 And Leopold speaks to those people at one point in 1:38:54.600 --> 1:38:58.080 Santa County Almanac. He's like talking about axe biting into 1:38:58.080 --> 1:39:01.320 a tree. Yeah, And he goes and he does a 1:39:01.400 --> 1:39:06.720 history lesson flap right out flies a chunk of the tree, 1:39:06.760 --> 1:39:08.880 and you think about the growth rings. And he walks 1:39:08.920 --> 1:39:10.559 you through where you're at, and you take a cup 1:39:10.600 --> 1:39:12.240 more wax, and where you're. 1:39:12.120 --> 1:39:12.919 At cross. 1:39:14.920 --> 1:39:15.280 Strokes. 1:39:18.000 --> 1:39:19.240 You're right, you're right there. 1:39:19.640 --> 1:39:22.400 That as that saw bites into that tree, he walks 1:39:22.400 --> 1:39:25.719 you back into time as you go into those growth rings. 1:39:25.960 --> 1:39:26.759 Right, it's. 1:39:28.840 --> 1:39:30.639 With his with his partner on the other. 1:39:30.600 --> 1:39:38.320 End that kind of exposure is not something that you 1:39:38.360 --> 1:39:40.200 think about at the time. It's just happening to you. 1:39:40.320 --> 1:39:45.040 Right Even now, identifying trees, I can't explain. It's difficult 1:39:45.040 --> 1:39:47.720 for me to explain to people that that's a a 1:39:47.760 --> 1:39:50.160 red oak, that's a white oak, and here's why, because 1:39:50.160 --> 1:39:52.760 the way it is, yeah, it's just right, you. 1:39:52.720 --> 1:39:53.519 Know when you see it. 1:39:55.880 --> 1:39:57.760 I mean pretty much everything in the woods just like 1:39:58.080 --> 1:39:59.840 you know, that's just the way. 1:40:00.200 --> 1:40:02.599 Well right, well, actually, my dad always used to say 1:40:02.680 --> 1:40:07.080 that's what they call and then insert whatever there, that's 1:40:07.120 --> 1:40:14.200 what they call. But had those experiences and I guess 1:40:14.240 --> 1:40:17.800 didn't appreciate him. It was more or didn't understand that 1:40:17.840 --> 1:40:19.519 there was a lesson being taught. And I don't think 1:40:19.560 --> 1:40:21.439 it was an intentional lesson at all. It was just 1:40:21.680 --> 1:40:25.280 this is what we do, and a farm was carved 1:40:25.280 --> 1:40:27.240 out of that land. And you know, to this day 1:40:28.479 --> 1:40:30.880 the farmland is one hundred acres or sixty acres of 1:40:30.880 --> 1:40:34.520 pasture and there's two hundred and forty acres of woods. 1:40:35.640 --> 1:40:42.439 And so I remember my father telling me fifteen years ago, 1:40:42.680 --> 1:40:45.000 you remember when we did the cutting of those big 1:40:45.040 --> 1:40:48.280 trees that I mean, this was one of these ethic 1:40:48.320 --> 1:40:50.720 things right. We were sitting there as I had gone 1:40:50.760 --> 1:40:53.760 through the management plan the shelter would harvest, and I 1:40:53.800 --> 1:40:55.240 was talking with him about it, and he looked at 1:40:55.320 --> 1:40:57.760 me and said, well, Douglas, this, I know this needs 1:40:57.800 --> 1:40:59.840 to be done. I just didn't want to be the 1:41:00.040 --> 1:41:02.160 one to do it, which was meaning he didn't want 1:41:02.160 --> 1:41:04.240 to be the one to kill those big trees because 1:41:04.280 --> 1:41:06.439 he's ninety years old at the time and he grew 1:41:06.520 --> 1:41:09.560 up with them. 1:41:09.600 --> 1:41:11.559 I've left. I've had that conversation with Yannie. 1:41:15.200 --> 1:41:16.599 Oh, killing killing trees. 1:41:16.640 --> 1:41:19.080 He doesn't want me to kill the trees, just. 1:41:19.040 --> 1:41:20.679 Cutting into them big old Yeah. 1:41:20.720 --> 1:41:20.880 You know. 1:41:20.880 --> 1:41:23.720 Here's the thing about that. The one of the my 1:41:24.360 --> 1:41:27.920 favorite lessons from Forrester was that kills the trees kill 1:41:27.960 --> 1:41:31.680 each other. That over time, the bigger they get, the 1:41:31.720 --> 1:41:34.639 fewer of them there are, and that what we're doing 1:41:34.640 --> 1:41:38.960 in our timber stand improvement process is we're selecting for 1:41:39.000 --> 1:41:43.800 the better trees so I can support you and your 1:41:43.800 --> 1:41:47.559 timber stand improvement. There's some things that maybe not so much, 1:41:47.640 --> 1:41:51.760 but I like what you're doing with your place. You know. 1:41:51.760 --> 1:42:00.360 It's Oh, I would never expect to speak for Leo Pulled, 1:42:00.400 --> 1:42:04.519 but I think much what Yanni's doing is Leopoldion. I 1:42:04.520 --> 1:42:06.880 don't think 'apoldion like that. 1:42:06.960 --> 1:42:09.160 Well, I mean I think I would certainly fall in 1:42:09.320 --> 1:42:14.440 like the greater than than rather than the lesser than category, 1:42:15.080 --> 1:42:18.400 you know, as most of what I'm doing he'd be into. 1:42:19.280 --> 1:42:26.080 I think you're right and the part in all of us. Right. 1:42:26.160 --> 1:42:28.280 So here I am sixty five years old, sitting here 1:42:28.479 --> 1:42:29.799 talking with all you young bucks. 1:42:29.920 --> 1:42:32.840 One second for folks at home. Yanni has taken a 1:42:33.920 --> 1:42:37.920 property that's he's spent his life around, and his family 1:42:37.960 --> 1:42:42.519 has deep history, and he's he's improving. He's taking steps 1:42:42.520 --> 1:42:45.880 to improve it as wildlife habitat. Particularly he's trying to 1:42:46.760 --> 1:42:54.599 attract big giant bucks and squirrels and squirrels. No, not anymore. 1:42:54.920 --> 1:42:58.160 It started, I'll be honest. Two years ago, when it started, 1:42:58.160 --> 1:43:00.400 I would have I would have said that's correct to say, 1:43:00.439 --> 1:43:04.519 particularly big giant books. But two years into it, it's 1:43:04.600 --> 1:43:06.240 just improving wildlife habitat. 1:43:06.479 --> 1:43:10.000 Yeah. And when I dog on Yianni, I'm joking. I 1:43:10.000 --> 1:43:12.040 know what he's doing. He's learned more about I don't. 1:43:12.680 --> 1:43:15.280 I've never done that project. He's studied up on it, right, 1:43:15.640 --> 1:43:16.360 I'm just teasing. 1:43:17.000 --> 1:43:21.559 Yeah, No, it's fantastic what he's doing. And I think 1:43:21.600 --> 1:43:26.320 what Leopold would like is that you're you're thinking, you're adapting, 1:43:26.720 --> 1:43:31.760 you're managing, and you're looking at uh, that bigger biotic community. 1:43:33.200 --> 1:43:36.120 And I think that's the part of the thought process 1:43:36.200 --> 1:43:41.920 that I was learning and didn't really understand it. So 1:43:41.960 --> 1:43:44.080 then I'm sixteen years old and I read this book, 1:43:44.160 --> 1:43:47.880 and by that first part the phenology was just fascinating 1:43:47.920 --> 1:43:50.439 to me. Then I got a little older and I 1:43:50.479 --> 1:43:53.000 traveled a little bit, and so the central part, which 1:43:53.040 --> 1:43:55.360 sketches here and there, where he's talking about these different 1:43:55.360 --> 1:43:58.960 parts of the country where he visited and the different 1:43:58.960 --> 1:44:01.080 experiences that he had in there and how they were 1:44:01.120 --> 1:44:02.840 beginning to shape it all through it, you can see, 1:44:02.920 --> 1:44:05.760 you can hear that these essays are the delights and 1:44:05.760 --> 1:44:09.240 dilemmas of one who cannot about wild places. So he's 1:44:10.680 --> 1:44:12.920 you can see what he's going towards. And then at 1:44:12.920 --> 1:44:17.160 the end it's the upshot the land ethic, and he 1:44:17.160 --> 1:44:21.679 says somewhere in there about I don't pretend to say 1:44:21.760 --> 1:44:24.240 that this is something that I've known all along, that 1:44:24.320 --> 1:44:27.360 this has been the evolution of life, is something that's 1:44:27.439 --> 1:44:31.400 learned over a lifetime and when. 1:44:31.040 --> 1:44:33.679 You I want to button out of things, you brought 1:44:33.680 --> 1:44:36.200 a thing up that reminds me of something I'd like 1:44:36.200 --> 1:44:39.240 to touch on with him. Is you mentioned the biotic community? 1:44:39.680 --> 1:44:41.920 That was a like somebody will say Eldo Leopold is 1:44:41.920 --> 1:44:45.200 the father of a cology because Eldo Leopold was looking 1:44:45.240 --> 1:44:50.759 at community like the wild, like nature as a community 1:44:50.800 --> 1:44:54.640 of parts. And he has this metaphor where he has 1:44:54.680 --> 1:45:00.360 this metaphor where you have a clock, right, and you 1:45:00.400 --> 1:45:02.720 have a person who doesn't know a lot about clocks, 1:45:03.200 --> 1:45:05.240 and they start going, what the hell could this wheel 1:45:05.240 --> 1:45:08.880 be for? That doesn't do any good? 1:45:09.960 --> 1:45:10.160 Right? 1:45:10.200 --> 1:45:14.439 And you start pitching parts. And he looked at nature 1:45:14.479 --> 1:45:17.560 that you have to have an appreciation that there's components 1:45:17.600 --> 1:45:21.959 of this that you don't understand. This is a collection 1:45:22.080 --> 1:45:27.000 of cogs and wheels that function together to do a thing. 1:45:27.160 --> 1:45:31.080 You cannot throw out little parts because you don't see 1:45:31.120 --> 1:45:36.519 what it's doing. That can't be helping this clock, right. 1:45:36.840 --> 1:45:43.160 He I think like as a game manager prior to Leopold, 1:45:43.760 --> 1:45:48.040 very generally speaking, it's like, if you want more game animals, 1:45:48.760 --> 1:45:52.519 you either stop people from hunting, you kill predators, or 1:45:52.560 --> 1:45:58.000 you you know, transplant animals or propagate animals and breathe them, 1:45:58.400 --> 1:46:02.400 and his his sort of generation. And it's not that 1:46:02.520 --> 1:46:04.360 he was just part of it, but I mean he 1:46:04.439 --> 1:46:07.439 was a leading figure in this recognition that all of 1:46:07.439 --> 1:46:11.599 these parts matter and that one way to get game 1:46:11.640 --> 1:46:15.400 animals is to improve habitat right. And like previously, there 1:46:15.439 --> 1:46:20.439 was a much more sort of narrow focus on like 1:46:20.760 --> 1:46:23.800 the number of deer in the woods and not necessarily 1:46:23.800 --> 1:46:25.920 like how the brows is doing and all that. 1:46:28.640 --> 1:46:33.240 And you've probably all heard the part about when he 1:46:33.280 --> 1:46:35.840 shot a wolf and saw the green fire go out 1:46:35.880 --> 1:46:38.840 of her eyes. I don't think that he was saying 1:46:38.840 --> 1:46:40.880 we should never control predators. 1:46:41.800 --> 1:46:44.320 He was, I feecially after that research just came out 1:46:44.320 --> 1:46:45.599 of British Columbia recently. 1:46:45.640 --> 1:46:47.680 That was interesting, but. 1:46:47.680 --> 1:46:50.960 The idea that they are members of the biotic community. 1:46:51.000 --> 1:46:54.080 And then later he wrote in the I think I 1:46:54.120 --> 1:46:55.559 sent it to you summary and I don't have it 1:46:55.600 --> 1:46:57.760 in front of me, but essentially where he said where 1:46:57.880 --> 1:47:03.800 rifles can control the antler the game populations, but they 1:47:03.880 --> 1:47:07.880 rarely do. As you once said to me as we 1:47:07.880 --> 1:47:10.200 were talking about white tail deer, you said, well, what 1:47:10.240 --> 1:47:12.880 do you mean too many deer. You were playing Devil's 1:47:12.880 --> 1:47:14.439 advocates to. 1:47:14.400 --> 1:47:16.040 Make that point all the time, and I don't make it. 1:47:16.200 --> 1:47:17.840 I make the point all the time when something the 1:47:17.880 --> 1:47:21.800 minute someone tells you something's overpopulated, I always point out, 1:47:22.479 --> 1:47:25.120 ask yourself, according to who right? 1:47:25.160 --> 1:47:26.080 From whose perspective? 1:47:26.080 --> 1:47:28.560 And I think my perspective is it overpopulated? 1:47:28.880 --> 1:47:30.439 And my response that day was. 1:47:30.479 --> 1:47:33.240 It's not like there's just not like an objective truth. 1:47:33.720 --> 1:47:39.280 Oh there is, please, there is one dog Leopold. Leopold 1:47:39.320 --> 1:47:43.840 told us what it was too right versus wrong. Okay, 1:47:43.960 --> 1:47:47.080 what a thing is right when it tends to preserve 1:47:47.920 --> 1:47:52.240 the beauty and integrity of the biotic community, it's wrong 1:47:52.280 --> 1:47:55.800 when it when it tends otherwise. And so if you 1:47:55.840 --> 1:47:57.760 have the land telling you there are too many deer, 1:47:57.800 --> 1:47:59.680 if you have the ecosystem telling you that there are 1:47:59.680 --> 1:48:02.639 too many deer, objectively, there are too many deer. 1:48:03.200 --> 1:48:10.040 As opposed to somebody who's like car insurance, car insurance company. 1:48:10.560 --> 1:48:13.640 It's not a number like fifty thousand and two and 1:48:13.680 --> 1:48:14.400 eighty two deer. 1:48:14.960 --> 1:48:21.880 Go on, Doug, Right, Yeah, you take a stance there 1:48:21.960 --> 1:48:22.360 too many. 1:48:22.600 --> 1:48:26.680 Absolutely, you're absolutely right, And that's uh, that is what 1:48:26.720 --> 1:48:28.920 he was getting at and all of that. When you 1:48:29.160 --> 1:48:31.439 when we had that discussion, I said, well, how about 1:48:31.479 --> 1:48:34.960 from the perspective of the land or something to that effect, 1:48:34.960 --> 1:48:40.000 And you're like, and I understood the position you were taking, 1:48:40.720 --> 1:48:44.439 but that that also goes to the biotic community. When 1:48:44.479 --> 1:48:47.400 we see ourselves as a member of the community, will 1:48:47.400 --> 1:48:51.559 treat it more lovingly as opposed to that that the 1:48:51.560 --> 1:48:53.799 first quote you read about one of the first quotes 1:48:54.320 --> 1:48:58.479 was that we are the masters the abrahamick that it's 1:48:58.520 --> 1:49:03.760 here for us to deploit. Essentially, that when we see 1:49:03.760 --> 1:49:06.439 ourselves as a member of it, we'll treat it more lovingly. 1:49:07.920 --> 1:49:10.599 And that's the kind of stuff that I've really taken 1:49:10.640 --> 1:49:15.599 the heart. I mean, I want a healthy biotic community. 1:49:15.680 --> 1:49:18.040 I want a healthy ecosystem, healthy forest, I want a 1:49:18.080 --> 1:49:21.120 healthy deer herd. I want big giant bucks when when 1:49:21.120 --> 1:49:24.120 you start boiling it down to my place in my 1:49:24.280 --> 1:49:27.080 area and I want turkeys a guy. 1:49:26.160 --> 1:49:33.479 But when it comes to hunting, like, what was Leopold's like, 1:49:34.200 --> 1:49:37.760 what was it about hunting for him? Was it that 1:49:37.760 --> 1:49:42.439 that game was a resource like timber or soil or water, 1:49:42.760 --> 1:49:47.120 or was it that that game was an indicator of 1:49:47.160 --> 1:49:50.120 a healthy landscape or did he just love hunting or 1:49:50.160 --> 1:49:50.839 was it everything? 1:49:51.240 --> 1:49:53.720 It was all of that, And again, I think that's 1:49:53.760 --> 1:50:00.920 an evolution and thought that that as my dad used 1:50:00.920 --> 1:50:02.640 to like to say, well, it's all part of it. 1:50:04.680 --> 1:50:08.600 And I think that's very My father was very Leopoldian 1:50:08.640 --> 1:50:10.400 when it came to things like that. Right now, it's 1:50:10.439 --> 1:50:13.360 all a part of it. And when we're in a 1:50:13.400 --> 1:50:18.439 situation very different than the HeLa and those wilderness areas, 1:50:18.479 --> 1:50:21.360 where I'm in a situation in southwest Wisconsin where ninety 1:50:21.360 --> 1:50:25.759 five percent of the land is privately owned and almost 1:50:25.840 --> 1:50:28.839 one hundred percent of that land has had this heavy 1:50:28.920 --> 1:50:34.439 impact of humankind and farming and and things that seemed 1:50:34.439 --> 1:50:36.479 like the right thing at the time, like the planning 1:50:36.479 --> 1:50:40.920 of multiflora rose or autumn olive or uh that kind 1:50:40.920 --> 1:50:44.320 of thing. And Yanny knows about this autumn alive, buckthorn, 1:50:44.880 --> 1:50:47.719 Japanese barbery, all of these different plants that we're really 1:50:47.720 --> 1:50:52.200 spending our time and we're out there managing invasive species 1:50:52.240 --> 1:50:54.600 now that we're introduced by us. Because it seemed like 1:50:54.640 --> 1:50:58.599 the right thing at the time, the same agencies that 1:50:58.840 --> 1:51:02.320 maybe encourage some of that planting are now also encouraging 1:51:03.280 --> 1:51:05.360 well will never eradicate it with the management of it. 1:51:05.400 --> 1:51:08.040 So that heavy hand of man and you know, in 1:51:08.120 --> 1:51:12.160 agriculture and and all of that is a real interesting 1:51:12.240 --> 1:51:16.599 part of this discussion to me. And I think one 1:51:16.600 --> 1:51:19.519 of the beautiful things of Leopold is that he was 1:51:19.720 --> 1:51:25.200 both this advocate for these wilderness areas and this this wildness, 1:51:25.320 --> 1:51:30.280 but then he was also heavily involved with private land conservation. 1:51:30.840 --> 1:51:34.800 That's a great that's a great point man that he like, 1:51:35.680 --> 1:51:39.360 when I look at my social circle, right, I got 1:51:39.400 --> 1:51:44.719 the friends right that are the you know, the last 1:51:44.920 --> 1:51:48.160 vestiges of wilderness and just like leave it be, leave 1:51:48.200 --> 1:51:50.080 it be, leave it be. And I got friends that 1:51:50.200 --> 1:51:54.000 are very steeped in like proper land management. We recently 1:51:54.000 --> 1:51:57.519 had Becky humphries On. Becky Humphreyes is like the ships 1:51:57.560 --> 1:52:00.160 sailed man. For most of the stuff, the lee even 1:52:00.200 --> 1:52:06.000 in alone ain't working. Yeah, it needs we need effort, money, 1:52:06.040 --> 1:52:10.200 time put into active land management. Leaving it be is 1:52:10.280 --> 1:52:13.120 not helping I, right, And it's like that here's this 1:52:13.160 --> 1:52:16.559 guy that at that time saw that these things are 1:52:17.120 --> 1:52:19.280 like was able to sort of see the world and 1:52:19.320 --> 1:52:21.760 these things that were like these two different conversations that 1:52:21.800 --> 1:52:24.200 needed to happen depending on location. 1:52:24.479 --> 1:52:28.120 Right, that's exactly right. So here in Uh, it was 1:52:28.160 --> 1:52:33.120 in nineteen twenty four that he moved to to Madison. 1:52:33.160 --> 1:52:36.679 You know, he was transferred to the Forest Products Lab 1:52:36.760 --> 1:52:39.639 in in Madison, Wisconsin, and he you know, he did 1:52:39.680 --> 1:52:44.200 that for about four years and ultimately quit and was 1:52:44.280 --> 1:52:52.439 hired by the Shooting and Shooting Arms Sammy. Sammy, tell 1:52:52.439 --> 1:52:54.200 me what it is, the Shooting Arms and. 1:52:54.360 --> 1:52:59.240 Orditions, Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute. 1:52:59.320 --> 1:53:02.720 Yeah, there you go to do. Uh, that is really well. 1:53:02.760 --> 1:53:05.760 On tribune, it was just yeah, bro, are you kind 1:53:05.800 --> 1:53:08.320 of yeah? I know, I wonder if you're both going 1:53:08.400 --> 1:53:10.639 to play later tape their minds shut. 1:53:10.880 --> 1:53:11.760 I'm I'm looking forward to. 1:53:15.600 --> 1:53:17.879 Is he talking about if I ever have a podcast? 1:53:18.320 --> 1:53:21.800 The guy for Sammy? After quitting the Forest Products. 1:53:21.680 --> 1:53:25.360 Right, he quit and so this is in the nineteen twenties. 1:53:25.400 --> 1:53:27.000 You know, things are going pretty well and he quit 1:53:27.040 --> 1:53:30.880 and then he convinced that group to hire him to 1:53:30.960 --> 1:53:35.480 do a game survey of multiple ones of the Upper Midwest. 1:53:35.800 --> 1:53:39.760 So the folks who are selling guns and ammunition, we're 1:53:39.760 --> 1:53:41.960 beginning to recognize that if we're going to sell guns 1:53:41.960 --> 1:53:44.920 and ammunition for people to hunt. Boy, they better have 1:53:45.040 --> 1:53:48.120 something to hunt, and what can we do about it? 1:53:48.160 --> 1:53:50.280 So he spent a lot of time in the Upper Midwest, 1:53:50.960 --> 1:53:53.760 uh doing these game surveys, and what he came back 1:53:53.840 --> 1:53:59.680 from with that from was it's not just regulation and 1:53:59.720 --> 1:54:02.599 in fact regulation of well it, you know, just don't 1:54:02.600 --> 1:54:04.200 shoot any deer for a while and you'll come back, 1:54:04.240 --> 1:54:05.880 or don't shoot any of this. That they have to 1:54:05.880 --> 1:54:08.559 have the habitat too, whatever that species happens to be, 1:54:10.000 --> 1:54:11.920 that they have to have that habitat. So let's start 1:54:11.920 --> 1:54:13.960 to work in that work on that. And then of 1:54:14.040 --> 1:54:17.559 course in the nineteen thirties when the depression came and 1:54:17.600 --> 1:54:20.559 the things like the Civilian Conservation Course started and the 1:54:20.560 --> 1:54:23.320 Soil Conservation Service that we all know as the Natural 1:54:23.360 --> 1:54:27.040 Resource Conservation Service now and the programs that Becky Humphries 1:54:27.160 --> 1:54:29.680 was talking about, the farm Bill, stuff like the Conservation 1:54:29.800 --> 1:54:35.320 Reserve Program, Stewardship program, equip all of those things. The 1:54:35.360 --> 1:54:38.640 precursor to that, Leopold was involved with that on private 1:54:38.720 --> 1:54:44.280 land between Madison Lacrosse is this place called Coon Valley, 1:54:44.640 --> 1:54:47.080 and they wanted to do something they being the Soil 1:54:47.120 --> 1:54:50.080 Conservation Service, to conserve the land, you know, those were 1:54:50.120 --> 1:54:52.040 the dust bowl years been in that area. It was 1:54:52.080 --> 1:54:56.440 erosion from just over use, over pasturing, over planting, you know, 1:54:56.560 --> 1:54:59.200 just plowing right across the side hills, all of that. 1:55:00.080 --> 1:55:03.720 And so the Soil Conservation Service, using the CCC, started 1:55:03.720 --> 1:55:10.520 to help farmers to to slow that down, stop it, 1:55:10.640 --> 1:55:14.560 you know, improve soil conditions. And Leopold stuck his nose 1:55:14.600 --> 1:55:17.760 in and said, you know, we can probably improved some 1:55:17.880 --> 1:55:21.280 wildlife habitat at the same time. So rather than planting this, 1:55:21.360 --> 1:55:23.520 that or the other thing, let's look at that. What 1:55:23.520 --> 1:55:28.080 what improvements are going to be made and how we 1:55:28.120 --> 1:55:32.480 can improve things for wildlife. And they did that. They 1:55:32.520 --> 1:55:38.760 accomplished that in Kune Valley. But he and at that 1:55:38.840 --> 1:55:41.240 time when he was talking about he wrote an essay 1:55:41.280 --> 1:55:44.800 called conservation Economics, which is a really interesting you know, 1:55:44.800 --> 1:55:46.760 and it speaks to all of what I just mentioned. 1:55:46.920 --> 1:55:51.000 Conservation economics, and he said that conservation will ultimately come 1:55:51.040 --> 1:55:58.920 down to rewarding the private landowner for conserving the public's interests, 1:55:58.960 --> 1:56:01.160 and a lot of that was born of it. What 1:56:01.560 --> 1:56:04.120 bothered him ultimately, again these are things that you have 1:56:04.200 --> 1:56:05.880 to learn over a period of time, right, is that 1:56:06.400 --> 1:56:10.560 farmers were getting paid for this stuff and for doing 1:56:10.600 --> 1:56:12.440 that kind of work, or the work was being done 1:56:12.520 --> 1:56:15.440 for them in areas they were improving their pastures, they're 1:56:16.560 --> 1:56:20.480 stopping the erosion doing all these things. And what ended 1:56:20.520 --> 1:56:23.600 up happening then once the program was over and maybe 1:56:23.600 --> 1:56:26.480 the payment stopped, they began to revert to their old 1:56:26.520 --> 1:56:28.760 practices because we got to get as much as we 1:56:28.800 --> 1:56:30.560 got to extract as much as we can out of there. 1:56:30.720 --> 1:56:34.760 And that was definitely a part of his evolution in 1:56:34.920 --> 1:56:40.680 talking about the land ethic, about having that ethic modern day, 1:56:40.840 --> 1:56:42.839 we have seen that. I've seen it in my lifetime 1:56:42.880 --> 1:56:46.720 where if you would have done some of the farming 1:56:46.760 --> 1:56:48.880 practices that I've seen in our area on those side 1:56:48.960 --> 1:56:50.760 hills and people do in fall plunging, people would have 1:56:50.800 --> 1:56:52.680 called you out on that. When I was a kid, 1:56:53.280 --> 1:56:55.600 we don't do that, you know, big buffer strips and 1:56:55.600 --> 1:57:00.240 you always rotate hay into it. But now it's corn 1:57:00.280 --> 1:57:02.960 beans and corn beans and a lot of those areas 1:57:02.960 --> 1:57:05.600 and they've improved some of the soil conservation practices. But 1:57:07.920 --> 1:57:10.600 land that came out of CRP marginal highly a rodable 1:57:10.680 --> 1:57:12.640 land that's come out of CRP and went back into 1:57:12.680 --> 1:57:17.240 corner beans because there's more money in it in plant 1:57:17.280 --> 1:57:20.280 and corn and beans than there is in having it 1:57:20.320 --> 1:57:24.640 in a conservation program like CRP. So that's where he 1:57:24.760 --> 1:57:27.280 begins to in the last part of the book, the 1:57:27.280 --> 1:57:28.800 third part of the book that speaks to me more 1:57:28.840 --> 1:57:33.320 now at this later part of my life about conservation 1:57:33.400 --> 1:57:38.240 philosophy and having a land ethic and seeing myself as 1:57:38.280 --> 1:57:41.160 a member of the biotic community. And you know, I've 1:57:41.200 --> 1:57:43.480 had all this advantage in my life where I'm the 1:57:43.520 --> 1:57:45.520 steward of a property that's been in my family for 1:57:45.520 --> 1:57:47.560 one hundred and twenty years. It's easy for me to 1:57:47.600 --> 1:57:51.760 stand there and think about my dad, my grandfather, my parents, 1:57:51.760 --> 1:57:56.320 my grandparents, my great grandparents, and them being on that land. 1:57:56.360 --> 1:57:58.600 And you know, I plane goes down on the way 1:57:58.640 --> 1:58:01.000 home and that land is still there, the land of bides. 1:58:02.080 --> 1:58:07.640 How do we influence how that because it's been so 1:58:09.840 --> 1:58:12.400 I was going to say negatively influenced, but that's not 1:58:12.440 --> 1:58:16.720 necessarily fair. It's been so influenced by the presence of man. 1:58:16.760 --> 1:58:21.440 How do we going forward? How do we going forward 1:58:22.000 --> 1:58:24.520 do the best thing that we can for the land? 1:58:24.760 --> 1:58:27.600 How can we honor the past while we plan and 1:58:27.640 --> 1:58:29.880 implement in the present. To do the best we can 1:58:29.960 --> 1:58:32.640 for the future. Summed up in It's not ours, It's 1:58:32.680 --> 1:58:40.760 just our turn. I just can't tell you how important this, 1:58:41.960 --> 1:58:43.960 the essays of this book have been to me. I've 1:58:44.000 --> 1:58:46.000 been reading through it again knowing that I was coming 1:58:46.040 --> 1:58:48.960 on and I kind of forgot about that or how 1:58:49.000 --> 1:58:52.680 he makes these points a lot of quotes, you know, 1:58:52.720 --> 1:58:56.400 one sentence quotes, but it's the whole paragraph. Yeah, that's important. 1:58:57.040 --> 1:59:00.680 When you look at like just this revolutionary figure and 1:59:00.920 --> 1:59:03.120 understood all this stuff so well, it does make you 1:59:03.880 --> 1:59:14.800 question current prohibitions on cousins, you know, like you know, 1:59:14.840 --> 1:59:19.160 he right, Yeah, it's a real, real check on the 1:59:19.240 --> 1:59:20.360 scorecard of the. 1:59:21.960 --> 1:59:23.480 Yeah, real it worked once. 1:59:23.560 --> 1:59:24.000 Obviously. 1:59:24.120 --> 1:59:27.640 Yeah, I'll be like, well, you're saying it's almost unfair. 1:59:28.160 --> 1:59:28.360 You know. 1:59:28.440 --> 1:59:33.600 He's like such a brilliant thinker, this incredibly accomplished professional 1:59:33.720 --> 1:59:36.400 and made it. He's also like a prophet in some 1:59:36.440 --> 1:59:38.440 respects and a philosopher and a writer. 1:59:38.720 --> 1:59:40.960 It's just like, yeah, you tell me, isn't it that 1:59:41.000 --> 1:59:42.800 you tell me? That's no good? Huh. 1:59:42.840 --> 1:59:45.920 Well, and he was sixty two years old when he died, 1:59:46.040 --> 1:59:47.160 helping a neighbor he. 1:59:47.120 --> 1:59:53.600 Had Doug Hayes's joke, the cousin thing. Yeah, I'm he's 1:59:53.720 --> 1:59:54.440 changing the subject. 1:59:54.480 --> 1:59:55.839 Yeah, I am going to change the subject. 1:59:56.120 --> 1:59:58.160 So Leo wrapped the whole show up. I want you 1:59:58.200 --> 1:59:59.560 to have the last word, Doug. 2:00:00.080 --> 2:00:02.560 Uh Leopold died when he was night, when he was 2:00:02.560 --> 2:00:05.200 sixty two years old. Did he really died? 2:00:05.360 --> 2:00:07.360 I think I knew that and forgot it. He died 2:00:07.360 --> 2:00:07.760 that young. 2:00:07.840 --> 2:00:11.120 He was sixty two years old. He died helping a 2:00:11.160 --> 2:00:12.760 neighbor fight a grass fire. 2:00:13.680 --> 2:00:14.560 He had a heart attack. 2:00:14.960 --> 2:00:17.840 Yet when you look at pictures of Elder Leopold, just 2:00:17.880 --> 2:00:19.440 I defy you, folks. 2:00:19.480 --> 2:00:22.080 He died at six sixty two years old. 2:00:22.120 --> 2:00:25.880 Google Elder Leopold and then clicked on images and it 2:00:25.920 --> 2:00:28.800 will be a whole raft of images of him doing 2:00:28.880 --> 2:00:32.080 nothing but sitting on his butt. It just amazes me 2:00:32.240 --> 2:00:35.440 how much this guy did in a lifetime, and seemingly 2:00:35.480 --> 2:00:38.520 there aren't any pictures of him doing much other than 2:00:38.560 --> 2:00:40.960 looking off in the distance and maybe writing in a 2:00:41.040 --> 2:00:41.920 journal and whatnot. 2:00:41.960 --> 2:00:45.600 But sixty two, sixty two, I don't think that was 2:00:45.680 --> 2:00:47.320 that unusual back then. 2:00:47.800 --> 2:00:49.200 Well, you had to be sitting still to get a 2:00:49.240 --> 2:00:50.040 good photograph. 2:00:50.360 --> 2:00:54.040 No, no, that you would die had uncle died, burning leaves, 2:00:54.920 --> 2:00:56.920 smoke in ealation, no fire, it out of control. 2:00:58.720 --> 2:01:02.000 There's a good action shot on the Rio Grande of 2:01:02.120 --> 2:01:05.200 Leopold as a young man with a boat like a 2:01:05.240 --> 2:01:08.320 flat bottom boat that he fashioned for duck hunting, named 2:01:08.320 --> 2:01:11.280 the Binnacle Bat he called his boat. And he's out 2:01:11.320 --> 2:01:15.880 there dragging this this duck skiff. He's not sitting that one. 2:01:16.440 --> 2:01:20.200 But there are a lot of thoughtful he was action. 2:01:20.520 --> 2:01:27.400 Action in motion. Remarkable and I would ask you all 2:01:27.440 --> 2:01:31.080 to go and check out the Ela Leopold Foundation. It 2:01:31.160 --> 2:01:35.160 is the source for information about Leopold and it will 2:01:35.160 --> 2:01:37.680 take you in a lot of different directions. They are 2:01:37.760 --> 2:01:44.360 also the Leopold Foundation is located on the Leopold farm. 2:01:44.520 --> 2:01:47.120 The shack is there. It's open to tours. 2:01:47.920 --> 2:01:49.760 You should put that in the sports from Atlas Brody. 2:01:50.840 --> 2:01:52.080 Totally Leopold's farm. 2:01:52.640 --> 2:01:53.360 We got the HeLa. 2:01:53.480 --> 2:01:59.640 Yeah, we're gonna get to Leopold. Can landowners enroll? Can 2:01:59.680 --> 2:02:02.960 they say eyeing up to join your sharing the land program? 2:02:03.200 --> 2:02:07.720 Please? It's interesting. We have thirty landowners in eight different 2:02:07.760 --> 2:02:13.120 states and we have about thirteen hundred conservation resumes from 2:02:13.360 --> 2:02:16.240 access seekers who want to be cooperators. So we as 2:02:16.280 --> 2:02:20.520 you probably are not surprised. The demand is outstripping the 2:02:20.560 --> 2:02:24.120 supply and landowners, one of the things that I would 2:02:24.120 --> 2:02:29.720 tell you is that it's it's very much your What 2:02:29.720 --> 2:02:32.720 you're able to do is offer access for the things 2:02:32.720 --> 2:02:36.960 that that you are will. You don't have to offer 2:02:37.000 --> 2:02:38.000 access for everything. 2:02:38.720 --> 2:02:41.800 It's like conservation related. It's not like shovel and shit 2:02:41.920 --> 2:02:44.280 and taking out the trash. 2:02:44.840 --> 2:02:48.720 You know, it can be. What I've noticed about most 2:02:48.760 --> 2:02:51.280 of our landowners is that they're really interested. The ones 2:02:51.280 --> 2:02:54.120 who are interested in sharing the land and are part 2:02:54.160 --> 2:02:56.920 of sharing the land are very engaged with their property, 2:02:57.160 --> 2:03:05.080 very engaged landowners who are in interested in spreading conservation education. 2:03:06.880 --> 2:03:09.760 And you know, the need. The truth is that there 2:03:09.880 --> 2:03:12.879 is a big need to get things done on on projects. 2:03:12.920 --> 2:03:16.800 I got a list of stuff at home that that 2:03:16.840 --> 2:03:20.200 we're going to be getting busy on. I got to 2:03:20.240 --> 2:03:22.840 tell you what, Steve Ranella works his butt off in 2:03:22.880 --> 2:03:25.120 the very short period of time usually, but he gets, 2:03:25.240 --> 2:03:29.720 he gets, He gets more than most people do. We 2:03:29.760 --> 2:03:32.880 had an elm tree right by the house break off 2:03:32.960 --> 2:03:36.640 and it was just a mess in the yard, and 2:03:36.760 --> 2:03:39.440 uh yeah, he got after it to. 2:03:39.400 --> 2:03:40.480 The Tasmanian devil. 2:03:40.800 --> 2:03:43.040 That's just because all the windows were there's no more 2:03:43.080 --> 2:03:44.680 windows break. 2:03:45.920 --> 2:03:48.600 And the kids helped out, Jimmy mostly the other two. 2:03:48.680 --> 2:03:50.800 You know. They they come along. 2:03:50.520 --> 2:03:56.000 And they feel that helping is being in the vicinity. 2:03:56.640 --> 2:03:58.680 Well they can run, they can run for help if 2:03:58.680 --> 2:03:59.200 you need it. 2:03:59.280 --> 2:04:02.480 So so doing a chore they be like, I'm just 2:04:02.520 --> 2:04:05.720 gonna kind of play like buy the chore area. 2:04:06.160 --> 2:04:10.800 Right accept or the auxiliary. Steve had Matthew out because 2:04:10.840 --> 2:04:13.640 I had clearly failed as a guide, and uh, Steve 2:04:13.680 --> 2:04:17.120 took him out. But Rosie and and uh uh the 2:04:17.200 --> 2:04:20.680 other one, Jimmy had already gotten their birds, and I said, well, 2:04:20.680 --> 2:04:22.520 I've got some stuff for him to do. And I 2:04:22.600 --> 2:04:25.960 had a burroke tree, a couple of fruit trees to plant, 2:04:26.760 --> 2:04:28.600 a little a little more picking up to do. And 2:04:28.600 --> 2:04:33.480 they stepped right into its bring your kids. Yeah, they 2:04:33.480 --> 2:04:35.840 weren't afraid. They got right in there and they did 2:04:35.880 --> 2:04:36.640 a great job of it. 2:04:37.040 --> 2:04:38.600 We're gonna wrap it up. Oh no, you were The 2:04:38.880 --> 2:04:41.080 one that you're gonna say is for landowners that want 2:04:41.120 --> 2:04:43.200 to participate with sharing the land, you don't need to 2:04:43.200 --> 2:04:44.680 be like, hey, here's the keys of the farm. 2:04:44.920 --> 2:04:45.640 Oh not at all. 2:04:45.720 --> 2:04:49.120 You can be like, hey, turkey's cool. Hey, late season 2:04:49.240 --> 2:04:52.240 white tailed doz cool, squirrels cool. 2:04:52.560 --> 2:04:54.080 Yeah, and that's exactly right. 2:04:54.120 --> 2:04:55.440 Don't shoot my big giant bucks. 2:04:55.480 --> 2:04:57.680 Okay, well sure, I mean that that can be a 2:04:57.680 --> 2:04:59.800 part of it too, and and and to be perfectly 2:04:59.840 --> 2:05:04.280 on honest, I as I think everybody at the table 2:05:04.400 --> 2:05:07.240 knows here, I don't bow hunt because bow hunts for 2:05:07.240 --> 2:05:11.240 people don't have enough to do. But I lease my 2:05:11.320 --> 2:05:15.120 farm to some bow hunters and who do a great 2:05:15.160 --> 2:05:17.720 job of it, and I'm very happy to have them there. 2:05:18.040 --> 2:05:24.680 And that revenue I mean they simply pay is a 2:05:24.720 --> 2:05:26.520 part of it too, right, because that's a part of 2:05:26.560 --> 2:05:29.400 the a la carte menu that well, you can't bowhunt in. 2:05:29.760 --> 2:05:32.720 But some of my cooperators literally the day they're like, 2:05:32.960 --> 2:05:36.600 when are those guys leaving? And there's some good days 2:05:36.600 --> 2:05:38.520 of the rut left and they're in there right after that. 2:05:39.200 --> 2:05:41.920 And think about that on both sides, right, So those 2:05:41.920 --> 2:05:43.640 guys are, well, we've been doing this work, we should 2:05:43.640 --> 2:05:46.240 get that opportunity. But they know and then the guy 2:05:46.280 --> 2:05:49.160 who spends serious money to come and hunt, he's like, 2:05:49.760 --> 2:05:52.800 so will you explain this to me again that we're 2:05:52.840 --> 2:05:57.480 paying And then tomorrow after we leave. You got these 2:05:57.480 --> 2:06:01.440 other guys coming. They're not paying nothing. Yeah, that's the deal. 2:06:05.680 --> 2:06:09.760 Well you sum it up. I've been working with those 2:06:10.040 --> 2:06:12.240 those guys have been least in my place for eight 2:06:12.320 --> 2:06:15.720 years now, and that has been and and and then 2:06:15.720 --> 2:06:17.680 when we come in and then the gun hunting. 2:06:17.680 --> 2:06:19.480 You know, I'll help you hold up you're end of 2:06:19.480 --> 2:06:21.480 the deal though, man, Like you have a window of 2:06:21.560 --> 2:06:24.480 time that they want to hunt, carved out, hunted. 2:06:24.280 --> 2:06:26.800 And nobody else hunted before them, and they get that 2:06:26.840 --> 2:06:28.480 period of time and then I. 2:06:28.480 --> 2:06:30.600 Mean, you're you're you're you're being kind, but like you're 2:06:30.640 --> 2:06:33.680 taking like peak white tail rut on a beautiful white 2:06:33.680 --> 2:06:35.480 tail property and that's. 2:06:35.240 --> 2:06:39.240 Theirs, and that's theirs. And uh and then then they 2:06:39.240 --> 2:06:41.960 shot fortier last year, and then we came in with 2:06:42.080 --> 2:06:43.920 rifles and shot forty three more. 2:06:46.600 --> 2:06:48.720 Well you know, and you wouldn't know what from looking 2:06:48.760 --> 2:06:52.840 at it this spring. Well, it's like, oh my god, 2:06:53.200 --> 2:06:56.160 Well that's a whole there's a million deer in that place. 2:06:57.040 --> 2:06:59.760 That's a whole other thing. I uh, at our seat, 2:06:59.760 --> 2:07:01.120 I just want to put this in at our sea 2:07:01.160 --> 2:07:03.640 deck meeting the County Deer Advisory Council which I'm a 2:07:03.680 --> 2:07:06.920 member of. We actually had someone come in from the 2:07:06.920 --> 2:07:10.600 public and we had public comments but online. But somebody 2:07:10.600 --> 2:07:13.280 came in from the public and he was nice guy. 2:07:13.320 --> 2:07:16.280 I've had other conversations with me. I don't understand why 2:07:16.320 --> 2:07:19.160 you want to kill all the deer. Why are you 2:07:19.240 --> 2:07:20.880 killing all Why do you want to kill all the deer? 2:07:20.920 --> 2:07:23.800 And it's not what we're trying to do. We're trying 2:07:23.800 --> 2:07:28.240 to give opportunity as much opportunity as we can because 2:07:28.240 --> 2:07:31.480 we have a lot of deer and ninety percent of 2:07:31.600 --> 2:07:34.080 land as privately owned. And if you don't think that 2:07:34.160 --> 2:07:38.200 you have enough deer on your property, then don't kill many. 2:07:39.200 --> 2:07:41.480 It's a pretty simple premise. 2:07:42.760 --> 2:07:44.760 All right, man, We're gonna wrap up. Thank you boys, 2:07:45.280 --> 2:07:48.680 Thank you so much. Carol Malcolm from the US for Service, 2:07:49.280 --> 2:07:53.400 glad to be here. And Doug Durn from Casanova, Wisconsin. 2:07:54.760 --> 2:07:57.720 Casanova, that's what you like. 2:07:57.680 --> 2:08:00.280 To call it, Casanova Wisconsin. 2:08:00.400 --> 2:08:02.919 And please go and check out the Alder Leopold Foundation. 2:08:03.680 --> 2:08:04.440 Thank you very much. 2:08:05.640 --> 2:08:06.160 Mm hmmm. 2:08:12.840 --> 2:08:20.240 I used to be the one skin datiesy close enough 2:08:20.600 --> 2:08:27.400 for me and he say up more steps before you 2:08:27.560 --> 2:08:30.080 click the safety. 2:08:29.320 --> 2:08:35.919 Off of that O two forty three and do my 2:08:36.080 --> 2:08:37.480 best to sit there. 2:08:38.000 --> 2:08:46.520 Quiety say, so you gotta learn to be step. And 2:08:46.600 --> 2:08:52.440 now it's me telling his grandson all the things he 2:08:52.680 --> 2:08:59.880 used to whisper in my just a little more patient, son, 2:09:01.000 --> 2:09:06.400 I ain't gonna hurt no one. He ain't got a 2:09:06.520 --> 2:09:10.800 picking good shot before he pulled the trigger. 2:09:11.360 --> 2:09:15.400 Night on, gone on, the study untrue. 2:09:16.560 --> 2:09:24.400 Man. When you take came, the rest is up to you. Man, 2:09:24.440 --> 2:09:36.320 you're gonna do great. Just shoot in the street. Now, 2:09:36.640 --> 2:09:41.640 my daddy's up in heaven. One day I'll. 2:09:41.400 --> 2:09:45.080 Be up there with them looking down. 2:09:47.400 --> 2:09:55.320 Oh when watching now the Jemeration show, the next wom 2:09:55.880 --> 2:09:56.680 a ride. 2:09:58.960 --> 2:10:02.560 And they through these olds. 2:10:02.360 --> 2:10:07.560 Awkwards and they teach me everythings they need to know 2:10:10.200 --> 2:10:17.440 because they ain't learned from their daddy, learned from their daddy. 2:10:17.560 --> 2:10:23.480 And the story goes, just a little more patience. 2:10:24.840 --> 2:10:30.720 I ain't gonna hurt no wale. You ain't gotta picking 2:10:30.880 --> 2:10:38.040 good shot before we pulled the trigger, na on, gone order. 2:10:37.960 --> 2:10:45.040 Steady in true. And when you two came, the rest 2:10:45.400 --> 2:10:48.160 is up to you. Man. 2:10:48.240 --> 2:11:07.840 You're gonna do great. Just shoot street. Just a little 2:11:08.000 --> 2:11:15.000 more patience. So I ain't gonna hurt no one. You 2:11:15.160 --> 2:11:20.360 ain't gotta picking good shot before you pull the trigger 2:11:20.640 --> 2:11:21.680 from that old. 2:11:21.920 --> 2:11:30.240 Gone hold in steady R. And when you take the 2:11:30.440 --> 2:11:35.480 rest is up to you. Man, you're gonna do the great. 2:11:38.000 --> 2:11:39.680 Just shoot up the street. 2:11:45.840 --> 2:11:45.880 H