WEBVTT - Netflix's 'Making a Murderer' Makes a Star 0:00:02.960 --> 0:00:05.720 This is Alec Baldwin and you are listening to Here's 0:00:05.760 --> 0:00:09.560 the thing, My chance to talk with artists, policy makers, 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:14.080 and performers, to hear their stories. What inspires their creations, 0:00:14.160 --> 0:00:18.920 what decisions change their careers, what relationships influenced their work. 0:00:20.400 --> 0:00:25.160 Last year, Netflix released the massively popular ten part documentary 0:00:25.200 --> 0:00:29.600 series Making a Murderer. The show is set in Wisconsin 0:00:29.680 --> 0:00:33.000 and follows the case against Stephen Avery and his nephew, 0:00:33.040 --> 0:00:37.000 Brendan Dassey, who were arrested and subsequently convicted for the 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:41.239 murder of a local woman, a photographer named Tersa Holbach. 0:00:42.680 --> 0:00:45.040 If you saw the series, you are well acquainted and 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:48.519 perhaps a bit smitten with my guest to day, Dean Strang, 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:54.000 the unlikely breakout star. Strang and Jerry Being Avery's original 0:00:54.040 --> 0:00:57.520 defense attorneys, are now on a nationwide tour called a 0:00:57.600 --> 0:01:01.920 Conversation on Justice to discuss the larger implications of the case. 0:01:02.840 --> 0:01:06.160 When he entered college in the late seventies, Dean Strength 0:01:06.360 --> 0:01:10.119 wasn't hatching his plan to start a national dialogue about 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:14.119 the flaws in our judicial system. He was singularly focused 0:01:14.360 --> 0:01:18.200 on being a political cartoonist. I was interested in politics 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:21.440 before I had a particular political point of view, if 0:01:21.440 --> 0:01:25.040 that makes sense. As a kid, and I graduated with 0:01:25.040 --> 0:01:29.319 a degree in government, and when you got out you 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:33.000 were cured of your editorial cartoony. Yeah, you know, my 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:37.080 my junior year, I ended up making one of the 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:39.880 most mature decisions I've ever made my life to date, 0:01:40.640 --> 0:01:46.160 still ways to go, which is deciding. As much as 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:49.720 I loved cartooning, it wasn't going to be a good 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:53.240 career as much as I love and still you know, 0:01:53.280 --> 0:01:56.800 if I sat down and started drawing regularly now it 0:01:56.880 --> 0:01:59.240 had been like an alcoholic with a bottle. I mean, 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:04.400 you know, in the end, it's not collegial. It's very solitary. 0:02:05.320 --> 0:02:08.000 It's not constructive in the sense of all you're ever 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:11.040 doing is pointing out a problem, you know, scaring people 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:13.440 and and and and I don't find a problem is 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:15.680 an important first step, but you're never part of a 0:02:15.720 --> 0:02:18.960 solution for it. As a cartoonist. If you don't mind asking, 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:21.239 what was your family's politics? Your dad, your mom was 0:02:21.360 --> 0:02:24.839 a My dad was a Republican is what you would 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:27.400 think of as a business Republican now, and you know, 0:02:27.440 --> 0:02:32.240 and my mother, uh, what her politics where she really 0:02:32.280 --> 0:02:34.280 did keep to herself. She did. I was so hoping 0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:36.400 you'd say she was a communist. No, she wasn't. Grew 0:02:36.440 --> 0:02:40.120 up in this weekly fractured house. I doubt it, but 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:42.720 I doubt it. But she was, by nature in the 0:02:42.919 --> 0:02:46.520 very best way of bleeding heart she was. So you're 0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:50.440 more your mother than your father in many ways. Yeah, 0:02:51.080 --> 0:02:53.000 you made a comment in an interview. I'm going to 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:55.000 quote a couple of things from an interview that you did. 0:02:55.480 --> 0:02:58.320 You made a comment to Slate that you were the 0:02:58.320 --> 0:03:02.000 world's worst federal prosecut cuter. Yes, I think so. We'll 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:05.960 describe how only eleven months on the job for one, 0:03:06.480 --> 0:03:11.560 thankfully for one society for society. Yeah, I lasted only 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:14.360 eleven months. I didn't have the spine for it. I 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:17.920 just did not have the spine for it. Um sentence 0:03:17.919 --> 0:03:20.480 seems tore me up. What do you think it takes 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:25.120 to do that job? I think it takes, you know, 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:30.680 sort of a greater a need, a greater need or 0:03:30.480 --> 0:03:37.160 a greater centrality of h orders as a as a 0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:40.520 first value just order. First of all, you're you know, 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:43.880 you're working for a huge organization, the US Department of Justice, 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:48.200 So you can't just be freelancing you know, there's eleven 0:03:48.280 --> 0:03:51.520 volumes of the United States Attorney's Manually you've got to follow. 0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:57.160 And second, you know, um, when you're prosecuting, what you're 0:03:57.160 --> 0:03:59.920 trying to do, it invariably is maintained the status quo. 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:02.760 Keep the evidence the cops have found or the agents 0:04:02.760 --> 0:04:06.200 have found, keep it from being suppressed. You know, assert 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:12.400 the rectitude of existing social order. You know, carry out 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:15.880 an idea of applying part of a you're part of 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:18.440 a huge you know what I mean, part of the sovereign. 0:04:18.920 --> 0:04:21.159 What makes a good prosecutor to you when if you 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:23.520 sat in the courtroom and said, man, this guy or 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:29.280 this woman, they're good. Real connection with victims of crime, 0:04:30.120 --> 0:04:33.880 a real understanding of the human situation, an ability to 0:04:33.960 --> 0:04:38.920 empathize with a defendant. Know you what you're What you're 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:42.760 saying then, is that, if I'm right, is it beyond 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:45.480 them genuinely having an empathy for the victims at least 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:48.840 conveying that effectively to a jury to pass on to 0:04:48.920 --> 0:04:51.080 the jury, look what happened to these people? And put 0:04:51.120 --> 0:04:53.679 yourself in there, and a passion about it, a sense 0:04:53.680 --> 0:04:57.760 of passion about an articulated passion from your side. As 0:04:57.800 --> 0:05:00.640 a defense attorney whether people to come in and they 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:02.520 sit down with you when they want your firm to 0:05:02.560 --> 0:05:04.880 defend them and you tell them no, how do you 0:05:05.080 --> 0:05:07.520 what's what's the process by which you choose the firm 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:10.080 and you individually you choose who you will and won't 0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:12.680 defend if it's a good fit, and they're sure. There 0:05:12.680 --> 0:05:16.040 are plenty of people we tell no, or in the end, 0:05:16.360 --> 0:05:19.599 you know, walking thinking they want us and walk out saying, 0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:21.680 you know, you may be the right lawyer for the 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:24.760 next guy, but not for me. So it looked for me. 0:05:25.080 --> 0:05:28.680 You know, an initial client meeting is to three hours long, 0:05:28.760 --> 0:05:32.000 sometimes longer than that, and it's just feeling out and 0:05:32.440 --> 0:05:34.880 are we gonna be able to work well together? And 0:05:35.000 --> 0:05:37.839 some component of that is the facts of the case 0:05:38.520 --> 0:05:41.520 or was that even kind of down the list of 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:45.600 what's down the list? Why it's interesting, Well, because you 0:05:45.600 --> 0:05:48.559 know the facts. I have no way of knowing the facts. 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:50.679 When the client's walking in, I haven't seen the first 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:54.240 police report, I haven't you know, seeing anything. The other 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:57.640 side is saying, I have only a client's version, and 0:05:57.680 --> 0:06:03.520 he may have a very fragmentary, very fragmentary understanding even 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:05.520 you know the facts as he even he doesn't know 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:09.360 what happened, right, or what other people are saying or 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:12.279 you know. And the less involved he was, the less 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:16.080 he can possibly know about what the accusation is. Right, Um, 0:06:16.560 --> 0:06:19.080 if he's truly innocent, it wasn't that doesn't know anything, 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:21.599 doesn't know anything. Um, or if he was you know, 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:25.039 if he was drunk or you know whatever. And that's 0:06:25.080 --> 0:06:29.520 often you know a lot of arrests, look some drugs 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:33.360 or alcohol and one or two or three or ten sides. Um. 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:35.560 So more of it is, is this gonna be a 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:40.880 good working relationship without giving any details obviously or names obviously? 0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:43.840 Do they welcome Sometimes when you have that first meeting 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:45.800 and it goes fairly well, but as time goes on, 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:47.640 you sit there and say, this guy did it, this 0:06:47.680 --> 0:06:51.760 person did it. Well. Sure, but if you've the yeah, 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:55.280 if you've gotten off on a really good start when 0:06:55.279 --> 0:06:58.040 that comes, I mean, they've had situations where somebody's trying 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:01.360 to sell me on I didn't do it, and then 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:05.039 you know, as time goes on, it becomes pretty clear 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:07.920 they did and ad it to you. If you've if 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:10.600 you've if you've picked the right client and they've picked 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:13.040 the right lawyer, and you've worked on the relationship, they 0:07:13.080 --> 0:07:15.720 absolutely do so at the moment in that relationship when 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:18.800 that person reveals that they did do it, what's that 0:07:18.920 --> 0:07:21.920 like for you? What do you do? You just I'm 0:07:21.960 --> 0:07:25.680 already there, generally, you know, generally, this is a conversation 0:07:25.720 --> 0:07:28.760 that I've started. I'm waiting for you to say with them, 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:33.360 and then and then and then we we simply revisit objectives, 0:07:33.400 --> 0:07:36.680 because if they've done it and the relationship is good, 0:07:37.040 --> 0:07:40.120 no longer is the objective. Why you know, I want 0:07:40.120 --> 0:07:43.160 to be acquitted at trial. I've never had a client 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:46.560 say I did it, but I want to be acquitted 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:50.280 at trial. That's never happened to me yet. So it 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:52.760 may tomorrow, but it hasn't happened yet. So for those 0:07:52.800 --> 0:07:56.960 who don't understand the ethics of these relationships, they're paying 0:07:57.040 --> 0:08:00.240 you and requesting that you helped them get away with it. 0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:05.520 Well that ethically they they could do that, and ethically 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:07.280 I can do that. I can't put them on the 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:10.560 stand to give false testimony. I can't put anybody else 0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:13.440 on the stand. I know it's going to give false testimony. 0:08:13.880 --> 0:08:15.480 I you just sit back and wait to see the 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:17.800 state makes their case. Yeah, you can rely on reasonable 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:20.120 doubt in the end. Now that's a that's a lousy 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:22.680 defense strategy most of the time, simply to rely on 0:08:22.720 --> 0:08:27.920 reasonable doubt. That's not a compelling story to tell a jury, right, Um, 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:30.640 But it could be done. I've never had to do 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:35.000 that um to date, you know, because once there's a 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:38.480 breakthrough and they say, you know, I did it, it's 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:43.920 it's almost seamless to re state the objectives of the representation. 0:08:44.040 --> 0:08:47.920 At that point, then it becomes you know, but I 0:08:48.120 --> 0:08:50.520 understand them, and I missed my kids high school graduation. 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:53.640 Is there any way I cannot miss his college graduation? 0:08:53.840 --> 0:08:57.560 You know? Can you can you mitigate the consequences here 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:03.240 and guide me through this? Um And if the relationship 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:08.320 is good and trusting in both directions, it hasn't ever 0:09:08.400 --> 0:09:10.280 yet come down to you know, I want you to 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:14.320 go in and try to buffalo jury. There's a guy 0:09:14.840 --> 0:09:18.640 that I know worked at some mortgage lending company got 0:09:18.679 --> 0:09:23.480 mixed up in the mortgage scandal prosecutable offense. His boss 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:26.720 is he was like a fourth tier junior executive at 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:28.640 this company. And then that's a generous title. It was 0:09:28.679 --> 0:09:30.600 really just a bunch of guys working in some office 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:35.200 in New York, and long story short, as they wound 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:37.360 up going after him and squeezing him to give up 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:40.560 everybody up above him, and then they would continue to 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:43.200 squeeze up the chain. And uh, I mean obviously what 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:46.360 I'm getting towards here was prosecutorial overreach, if you will, 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:49.360 or whatever term you want to use. I don't want 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:51.839 to say, is there were a kind of guy like 0:09:52.040 --> 0:09:55.960 the prosecutor in the Dascy case. It was Ken Kratz. 0:09:56.559 --> 0:09:59.120 I don't want to say that Kratz is symbolic of 0:09:59.160 --> 0:10:01.160 the kind of people the go into that line of work. 0:10:01.800 --> 0:10:04.800 But at the very least there's a lot of temptation 0:10:04.880 --> 0:10:08.080 for those people, isn't there to abuse their power. That's 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:10.679 part of why I flopped as a prosecutor. I mean, 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:15.920 you you have to have that overriding belief in social 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:20.600 order that warrants using people instrumentally, you know, sort of 0:10:20.640 --> 0:10:23.680 squeezing somebody to get the next bigger guy and then 0:10:23.800 --> 0:10:26.880 squeezing that one to get the one above him. And 0:10:27.080 --> 0:10:30.960 I couldn't do that. This happens that client comes in, 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:34.000 potential client comes in, You meet with him, he lays 0:10:34.040 --> 0:10:38.200 it all out and you know my reactions. Look, you're cooked. 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:43.040 They've got you, and they're gonna want you to cooperate 0:10:43.040 --> 0:10:47.040 against others, and you probably should. That's probably your best 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:51.040 option at this point. And I don't do that. I'm 0:10:51.080 --> 0:10:54.880 not the right lawyer for that. I suck at working 0:10:54.880 --> 0:10:58.360 with agents and you know, negotiating those kinds of deals, 0:10:58.880 --> 0:11:02.120 it's not interesting. I mean, there's no real legal work involved. 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:04.320 There are lawyers who are very good at that, and 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:06.760 it has to be done, but is it understood in 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:09.320 your field when you go into the courtroom. Those guys 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:11.400 have the edge when you win the case, you really 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:14.319 want the kids. They've got every advantge. That's absolutely right. 0:11:14.760 --> 0:11:17.640 They really do. Um. And that's not to say that 0:11:17.640 --> 0:11:19.680 a lot of them don't work hard. And you know, 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:24.120 terrific lawyers and most prosecutors are on the up and up, 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:27.800 absolutely and committed to what they're doing and ethical and 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:29.840 you know all that good stuff. I want to win 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:32.880 the case on the merits, yes, yeah, and want to 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:34.880 do you know, want to do what's fair most of them, 0:11:35.040 --> 0:11:39.760 and so you know that's good. But um, but you're right, 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:43.720 they're always the state. You know, they've got the state's resources. 0:11:43.920 --> 0:11:46.959 They've got the base limited legal fees. I always say, 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:48.800 these people, they're never going to run out of money. Yeah. 0:11:48.920 --> 0:11:52.360 And and in this country, they've got the basic presumption 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:58.120 of legitimacy, you know, even opposed to other countries. Yeah, yes, um, 0:11:58.160 --> 0:12:00.400 I mean even with the anti government sent him that 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:05.000 you'll see rising in you know, sort of conservative populism. 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:09.360 Even with that, most Americans at the you know, at 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:11.520 the ground level, you know, if they're serving on a 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:14.520 jury in a criminal thing, he did it. I think, 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:17.040 if he's charged he did it. They trust the basic 0:12:17.640 --> 0:12:22.280 ground level competence of our government institutions. Mostly so as 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:27.080 a lawyer practicing privately in the state of Wisconsin, so 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:32.600 your first awareness of the every Dassy situation was in 0:12:32.600 --> 0:12:35.160 the media. You followed the case of the and his 0:12:35.240 --> 0:12:38.680 exoneration back in two thousand three. Um, when he was 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:40.880 freed for the rape he didn't commit. It was all 0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:43.560 over the paper and in and in the chambers of 0:12:43.600 --> 0:12:47.839 courtrooms in in in Milwaukee and beyond the Wisconsin How 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:49.959 did that reverber rate there? I mean, were the guys 0:12:50.360 --> 0:12:54.480 who were humiliated did they take that hard when they 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:57.520 were humiliated that way? I think a lot of them 0:12:57.520 --> 0:13:01.360 did um. I think some of them engaged in outright 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:06.120 counterfactual thinking. Um that well, you know, maybe the DNA 0:13:06.240 --> 0:13:08.600 test is wrong, or maybe there were two assailants and 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:12.320 for some reason, you know, this poor victim only only 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:16.480 told us about one, you know, preposterous stuff. But you know, 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:21.720 more broadly, the when DNA exonerations started happening, it wasn't 0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:26.720 quite an existential crisis for the prosecution apparatus in this country, 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:29.640 but I think it was a moment where they had 0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:32.840 to look in the mirror. You know, we we sort 0:13:32.840 --> 0:13:35.240 of the hubrist that we don't get things wrong, or 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:38.160 that we you know, juries always come to the right outcome, 0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:40.760 and judges weed out the cases that ought to be 0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:43.200 weeded out, and prosecutors dropped the things that ought to 0:13:43.200 --> 0:13:46.880 be prosecuted. That hubris just couldn't be maintained in the 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:51.200 same way anymore. You had to acknowledge a known error rate, 0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:54.240 and then acknowledge the possibility that there was an unknown 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:58.480 error rate, that it was even you know, larger. In 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:01.640 the show, you are sented. I'm not gonna say you 0:14:01.720 --> 0:14:08.720 present yourself, but you appear, you know, very trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, 0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:12.480 and reference if every quick I touched all those offerences there, 0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:14.920 I still remember that all these years later. But you 0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:17.080 do seem like a pretty solid citizen there. So I 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:19.480 was assuming that you wouldn't maybe want to comment on this. 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:23.840 But Patrick Willis was the judge in the Avery case. 0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:26.440 Is he still on the bench? He retired, he'd be tired? 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:29.680 How long ago? Three or four years? I'm guessing something 0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:32.080 like that. Do you care to render any kind of 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:35.120 observations about him or evaluations of him? Do you find 0:14:35.120 --> 0:14:38.000 it's better in your work if you don't do that? Well, 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:42.560 I actually like judge Willis. I did, and I do. 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:45.800 Um And look, we we elect our judges in Wisconsin 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:49.000 with open elections, you know, a trial judge every six years, 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:53.600 any lawyer can run against him or her. Like that system. No, 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:57.080 I don't like that and um and it and it 0:14:57.120 --> 0:15:00.960 affects how judges behave, especially in cases they're getting a 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:04.760 lot of public attention. And um. You know, so what 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:08.960 you're seeing there is is a judge who's well above 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:13.160 the fiftieth percentile in a state that elects judges. I 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:17.560 think he tried to get things right. Um, and do 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:19.520 you know, do I think that he felt sort of 0:15:19.560 --> 0:15:22.240 the pressure of public attention. Yeah, I do think you 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:24.840 felt the pressure of public attention to people who do 0:15:24.880 --> 0:15:26.520 what you do. Have an instinct or you can tell 0:15:26.520 --> 0:15:28.880 that the judge already thinks the person is guilty when 0:15:28.880 --> 0:15:31.880 the case proceeding. Oh, sure you can tell. Sure. So 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:34.280 you found that this guy, he wanted to affirm what 0:15:34.400 --> 0:15:38.080 the cops the prosecutors were saying. He's part of that system. 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:41.360 That is to say that almost every judge, in almost 0:15:41.360 --> 0:15:46.160 every case, believes more guilty they you know, they lose, 0:15:46.400 --> 0:15:50.360 they lose, really, they get habituated to guilt. They get 0:15:50.400 --> 0:15:52.760 habituated to a Have you seen judges that are not 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:55.840 like that? Yes, on occasion in the case you see 0:15:55.880 --> 0:15:58.520 a judges I'm not quite sure at the very least, right, 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:01.440 But boy, they have to hang onto that hardy. You know, 0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:06.160 when of the people are pleading guilty in the end, 0:16:06.880 --> 0:16:09.640 you know, and when you're seeing the same cops and 0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:12.600 prosecutors every day, and you know you're going to retirement 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:17.000 parties together, it becomes a courthouse click and you gotta 0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:21.800 hang on real hard to you know. The possibility of innocence. 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:25.160 When you watch Making a Murderer, what you get sucked 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:29.840 into it becomes a clue and it's almost like Demos 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:32.560 and mccayarty got people to start playing this game of 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:35.720 how many of these facts do you remember and how 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:37.960 do you piece them together? And you have a chance 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:40.240 to play lawyer for a little while. But as an 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:42.600 actual lawyer, what were some of the first things you 0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:44.240 saw in the case when you said to yourself, this 0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:49.600 is wrong. The key, the key, just something something doesn't 0:16:49.640 --> 0:16:53.040 square with the police explanation for this. I can't you know, 0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:55.200 you try to look at it from the other side. 0:16:56.000 --> 0:16:59.320 You know, what's the prosecution You gonna say, what's their argument? 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:02.640 Can I parry that? You know, how do we handle that? 0:17:02.840 --> 0:17:05.440 And so you try to flip around your point of view. 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:08.439 If I were them, if I were them, and I 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:15.919 don't know what I'd say about that key. More on 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:21.119 that key when we return explore the Here's the Thing archives. 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:25.240 I talked with Laura Richiardi and Morbid Demos, the filmmakers 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:29.240 of Making a Murderer who spent ten years capturing Stephen 0:17:29.280 --> 0:17:32.080 every story. You know, we were there simply to document 0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:34.679 events as they were unfolding. You know, we were not 0:17:34.760 --> 0:17:37.440 there to judge. We were there to listen and to witness. 0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:55.720 Take a listen at Here's the thing. Dot Org. This 0:17:55.800 --> 0:17:58.600 is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. 0:17:59.680 --> 0:18:03.280 Dean Strang is the former co council for Stephen Avery, 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:06.239 a man convicted of a brutal murder, as documented by 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:10.159 the ten part series Making a Murderer. The show sheds 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:14.119 light on major flaws and the prosecution's case. Dean Strang 0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:16.679 says there was one piece of evidence in particular that 0:18:16.760 --> 0:18:20.480 didn't add up. A key found in Avery's home during 0:18:20.480 --> 0:18:24.800 the investigation. Well, this was the seventh search. Um the 0:18:24.920 --> 0:18:28.679 bedroom of a single wide trailer. The size of this 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:31.399 booth were in about the size of this booth, were 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:35.280 in seriously about the size of the maybe a little 0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:38.000 bit bigger. You've got a standard sized mattress in there. 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:43.560 Um And so that the key, you know, just didn't 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:46.879 add up on the explanation the police were given for me, 0:18:47.640 --> 0:18:50.040 to my eye, in terms of a tipping point in 0:18:50.080 --> 0:18:52.760 the trial, I think it's when the judge allowed the 0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:55.879 FBI analyst to testify to the e d T, a 0:18:56.200 --> 0:19:00.760 testing which was when you say E d T A. 0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:06.200 D T A was this preservative that is in vials 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:09.200 that are used, you know, to store blood, to keep 0:19:09.240 --> 0:19:11.240 the blood liquid. And E d T A is a 0:19:11.320 --> 0:19:15.159 chemical that's used in all kinds of refresh our listeners memory, 0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:18.439 what what what happened there? Well, so you start, So 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:23.720 the blood was taken from Avery purpose for early DNA 0:19:23.840 --> 0:19:28.000 testing that was inconclusive at that time. And so there 0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:32.680 it sits in a vial after in a courthouse, in 0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:36.280 the clerk's office in the courthouse, the custodians of which 0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:40.440 are the Sheriff's department ultimately. And now you fast forward 0:19:40.720 --> 0:19:44.879 November two, five trees the Hallbucks cars found there looks 0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:49.960 like blood around the ignition, you know area on the 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:54.879 dashboard that blood gets collected. It's identified as being Stephen 0:19:54.920 --> 0:19:58.280 Avery's blood. How did it get there unless he was 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:01.000 bleeding and was in the car and you know, presumably 0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:05.720 turning the key in the ignition. Well, this is you know, 0:20:05.760 --> 0:20:10.280 and this is the you know, the game on moment 0:20:10.600 --> 0:20:15.160 in the trial, you know, with Jerry beating um. Where Wow, 0:20:16.240 --> 0:20:19.720 there is a vial of Stephen Avery's blood in the courthouse. 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:25.120 The seal on the box has been slit and when 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:28.440 you open the box up, now that the seals slit 0:20:28.880 --> 0:20:34.680 without explanation, the blood still liquid. So could the blood 0:20:34.680 --> 0:20:38.560 from that vial have ended up smeared on Teresa hallbox dash? 0:20:38.600 --> 0:20:42.320 When the blood is still liquid? How in the way 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:45.440 it wasn't refrigerated or frozen. It's in the continent, it 0:20:45.480 --> 0:20:47.920 remains good. There's a substance they put in there. Correct, 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:52.240 The vial, as all are, is treated with this chemical 0:20:52.359 --> 0:20:56.000 E d T, a chemical compound, just say as a 0:20:56.080 --> 0:20:58.800 common It's in a lot of household goods. It's edible, 0:20:58.920 --> 0:21:00.600 it's even you know, it's even in So when you 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:02.879 put that in there, it doesn't affect the DNA testing 0:21:02.880 --> 0:21:05.960 of the blood people itself was It just keeps it 0:21:06.000 --> 0:21:08.159 liquid and we will always know that is that person's 0:21:08.200 --> 0:21:11.080 budded matches. Well, yeah, it just makes it easier to test. 0:21:11.119 --> 0:21:15.640 So what was the ruling about? So the state now 0:21:15.760 --> 0:21:19.880 it's got a problem, right, Oh my god. The police 0:21:20.040 --> 0:21:23.840 in theory did have access to his blood, and one 0:21:23.880 --> 0:21:27.399 of the officers involved in this investigation heavily was the 0:21:27.400 --> 0:21:31.320 one who transported this violent blood back in nine I 0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:35.600 knew where it was. Now it existed, and so what 0:21:35.600 --> 0:21:37.320 do we do, you know, the States saying, what do 0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:40.040 we do about that? Well, let's see if we can 0:21:40.080 --> 0:21:44.119 test the blood from the dashboard to see if it 0:21:44.200 --> 0:21:47.399 contains E t A, because if it doesn't, then the 0:21:47.480 --> 0:21:51.280 hypothesis is it couldn't have come vile, couldn't have come 0:21:51.359 --> 0:21:53.200 from a vial because it would have E d t 0:21:53.359 --> 0:21:57.639 A and if it had been in the vial, right, yeah, 0:21:57.800 --> 0:22:02.119 And so initially they said, Judge, you know, exclude the 0:22:02.160 --> 0:22:05.040 blood vial and all this argument about planting the blood 0:22:05.119 --> 0:22:07.600 because there's nobody who can do a test for E 0:22:07.720 --> 0:22:10.199 d t A and they were certainly can't do it 0:22:10.240 --> 0:22:12.159 in time. Judge said no, I'm gonna let it in. 0:22:12.760 --> 0:22:15.240 And so then they got the They talked the FBI 0:22:15.320 --> 0:22:20.639 into going into into double time to try to you know, 0:22:20.760 --> 0:22:23.439 redo the E d t A testing. And I think 0:22:23.520 --> 0:22:25.320 the last time the FBI had done that was in 0:22:25.359 --> 0:22:28.240 the O. J. Simpson prosecution, where that was an issue 0:22:28.240 --> 0:22:31.080 as well, and the E d t A was an 0:22:31.080 --> 0:22:34.280 issue there. So the FBI had gotten out of that business, 0:22:35.840 --> 0:22:39.480 and the State of Wisconsin talked them into getting back 0:22:39.520 --> 0:22:43.320 into it. And then mid trial, you know, on a Friday, afternoon. 0:22:43.359 --> 0:22:46.640 As I recall, we get seven fifty pages of reports 0:22:46.640 --> 0:22:49.119 and we're told the FBI analyst is going to come 0:22:49.119 --> 0:22:51.480 in and say he couldn't detect E D T A 0:22:52.080 --> 0:22:56.240 in the blood from the dashboard of the car. And 0:22:56.520 --> 0:22:59.960 when the judge ultimately let that in, and of course 0:23:00.080 --> 0:23:04.720 we couldn't do independent testing or defense testing at that point. 0:23:04.760 --> 0:23:07.879 We're five because we're four or five weeks in the trial, 0:23:08.240 --> 0:23:11.080 and nobody but the FBI does this, and you know 0:23:11.240 --> 0:23:14.240 it just you couldn't do it. We're we're just resource, 0:23:14.480 --> 0:23:18.160 no resources and no time. Uh but why no time? 0:23:18.200 --> 0:23:20.119 What you mean you couldn't because we were in trial, 0:23:21.400 --> 0:23:24.000 We were five weeks into trial, and the judge wouldn't 0:23:24.000 --> 0:23:25.720 have allowed you if you could have found an independent 0:23:25.800 --> 0:23:29.040 source to determine something as significant as that, to have 0:23:29.119 --> 0:23:31.960 a month off or something to go do that. I 0:23:32.000 --> 0:23:33.320 don't think there was any way in the world the 0:23:33.400 --> 0:23:35.720