1 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:05,720 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you are listening to Here's 2 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:09,560 Speaker 1: the thing, My chance to talk with artists, policy makers, 3 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: and performers, to hear their stories. What inspires their creations, 4 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:18,920 Speaker 1: what decisions change their careers, what relationships influenced their work. 5 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 1: Last year, Netflix released the massively popular ten part documentary 6 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: series Making a Murderer. The show is set in Wisconsin 7 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: and follows the case against Stephen Avery and his nephew, 8 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 1: Brendan Dassey, who were arrested and subsequently convicted for the 9 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:41,239 Speaker 1: murder of a local woman, a photographer named Tersa Holbach. 10 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: If you saw the series, you are well acquainted and 11 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 1: perhaps a bit smitten with my guest to day, Dean Strang, 12 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: the unlikely breakout star. Strang and Jerry Being Avery's original 13 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 1: defense attorneys, are now on a nationwide tour called a 14 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: Conversation on Justice to discuss the larger implications of the case. 15 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: When he entered college in the late seventies, Dean Strength 16 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:10,119 Speaker 1: wasn't hatching his plan to start a national dialogue about 17 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:14,119 Speaker 1: the flaws in our judicial system. He was singularly focused 18 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: on being a political cartoonist. I was interested in politics 19 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: before I had a particular political point of view, if 20 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:25,040 Speaker 1: that makes sense. As a kid, and I graduated with 21 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 1: a degree in government, and when you got out you 22 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: were cured of your editorial cartoony. Yeah, you know, my 23 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: my junior year, I ended up making one of the 24 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: most mature decisions I've ever made my life to date, 25 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: still ways to go, which is deciding. As much as 26 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: I loved cartooning, it wasn't going to be a good 27 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: career as much as I love and still you know, 28 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: if I sat down and started drawing regularly now it 29 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 1: had been like an alcoholic with a bottle. I mean, 30 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: you know, in the end, it's not collegial. It's very solitary. 31 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: It's not constructive in the sense of all you're ever 32 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 1: doing is pointing out a problem, you know, scaring people 33 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: and and and and I don't find a problem is 34 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 1: an important first step, but you're never part of a 35 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 1: solution for it. As a cartoonist. If you don't mind asking, 36 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:21,239 Speaker 1: what was your family's politics? Your dad, your mom was 37 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,839 Speaker 1: a My dad was a Republican is what you would 38 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 1: think of as a business Republican now, and you know, 39 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: and my mother, uh, what her politics where she really 40 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: did keep to herself. She did. I was so hoping 41 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 1: you'd say she was a communist. No, she wasn't. Grew 42 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 1: up in this weekly fractured house. I doubt it, but 43 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: I doubt it. But she was, by nature in the 44 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 1: very best way of bleeding heart she was. So you're 45 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: more your mother than your father in many ways. Yeah, 46 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: you made a comment in an interview. I'm going to 47 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: quote a couple of things from an interview that you did. 48 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: You made a comment to Slate that you were the 49 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: world's worst federal prosecut cuter. Yes, I think so. We'll 50 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 1: describe how only eleven months on the job for one, 51 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: thankfully for one society for society. Yeah, I lasted only 52 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:14,360 Speaker 1: eleven months. I didn't have the spine for it. I 53 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 1: just did not have the spine for it. Um sentence 54 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: seems tore me up. What do you think it takes 55 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 1: to do that job? I think it takes, you know, 56 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 1: sort of a greater a need, a greater need or 57 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: a greater centrality of h orders as a as a 58 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: first value just order. First of all, you're you know, 59 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 1: you're working for a huge organization, the US Department of Justice, 60 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: So you can't just be freelancing you know, there's eleven 61 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 1: volumes of the United States Attorney's Manually you've got to follow. 62 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 1: And second, you know, um, when you're prosecuting, what you're 63 00:03:57,160 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: trying to do, it invariably is maintained the status quo. 64 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: Keep the evidence the cops have found or the agents 65 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: have found, keep it from being suppressed. You know, assert 66 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 1: the rectitude of existing social order. You know, carry out 67 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 1: an idea of applying part of a you're part of 68 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 1: a huge you know what I mean, part of the sovereign. 69 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,159 Speaker 1: What makes a good prosecutor to you when if you 70 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: sat in the courtroom and said, man, this guy or 71 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:29,280 Speaker 1: this woman, they're good. Real connection with victims of crime, 72 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: a real understanding of the human situation, an ability to 73 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:38,920 Speaker 1: empathize with a defendant. Know you what you're What you're 74 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: saying then, is that, if I'm right, is it beyond 75 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 1: them genuinely having an empathy for the victims at least 76 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 1: conveying that effectively to a jury to pass on to 77 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 1: the jury, look what happened to these people? And put 78 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:53,679 Speaker 1: yourself in there, and a passion about it, a sense 79 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: of passion about an articulated passion from your side. As 80 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: a defense attorney whether people to come in and they 81 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: sit down with you when they want your firm to 82 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: defend them and you tell them no, how do you 83 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: what's what's the process by which you choose the firm 84 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: and you individually you choose who you will and won't 85 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 1: defend if it's a good fit, and they're sure. There 86 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 1: are plenty of people we tell no, or in the end, 87 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 1: you know, walking thinking they want us and walk out saying, 88 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 1: you know, you may be the right lawyer for the 89 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: next guy, but not for me. So it looked for me. 90 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: You know, an initial client meeting is to three hours long, 91 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: sometimes longer than that, and it's just feeling out and 92 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: are we gonna be able to work well together? And 93 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:37,839 Speaker 1: some component of that is the facts of the case 94 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: or was that even kind of down the list of 95 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:45,600 Speaker 1: what's down the list? Why it's interesting, Well, because you 96 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,559 Speaker 1: know the facts. I have no way of knowing the facts. 97 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:50,679 Speaker 1: When the client's walking in, I haven't seen the first 98 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 1: police report, I haven't you know, seeing anything. The other 99 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: side is saying, I have only a client's version, and 100 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 1: he may have a very fragmentary, very fragmentary understanding even 101 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: you know the facts as he even he doesn't know 102 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: what happened, right, or what other people are saying or 103 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:12,279 Speaker 1: you know. And the less involved he was, the less 104 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: he can possibly know about what the accusation is. Right, Um, 105 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: if he's truly innocent, it wasn't that doesn't know anything, 106 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 1: doesn't know anything. Um, or if he was you know, 107 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:25,039 Speaker 1: if he was drunk or you know whatever. And that's 108 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: often you know a lot of arrests, look some drugs 109 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 1: or alcohol and one or two or three or ten sides. Um. 110 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 1: So more of it is, is this gonna be a 111 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: good working relationship without giving any details obviously or names obviously? 112 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:43,840 Speaker 1: Do they welcome Sometimes when you have that first meeting 113 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 1: and it goes fairly well, but as time goes on, 114 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: you sit there and say, this guy did it, this 115 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: person did it. Well. Sure, but if you've the yeah, 116 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:55,280 Speaker 1: if you've gotten off on a really good start when 117 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 1: that comes, I mean, they've had situations where somebody's trying 118 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 1: to sell me on I didn't do it, and then 119 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 1: you know, as time goes on, it becomes pretty clear 120 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 1: they did and ad it to you. If you've if 121 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 1: you've if you've picked the right client and they've picked 122 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: the right lawyer, and you've worked on the relationship, they 123 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: absolutely do so at the moment in that relationship when 124 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: that person reveals that they did do it, what's that 125 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: like for you? What do you do? You just I'm 126 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: already there, generally, you know, generally, this is a conversation 127 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: that I've started. I'm waiting for you to say with them, 128 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: and then and then and then we we simply revisit objectives, 129 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: because if they've done it and the relationship is good, 130 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 1: no longer is the objective. Why you know, I want 131 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: to be acquitted at trial. I've never had a client 132 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: say I did it, but I want to be acquitted 133 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 1: at trial. That's never happened to me yet. So it 134 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: may tomorrow, but it hasn't happened yet. So for those 135 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: who don't understand the ethics of these relationships, they're paying 136 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: you and requesting that you helped them get away with it. 137 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: Well that ethically they they could do that, and ethically 138 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 1: I can do that. I can't put them on the 139 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: stand to give false testimony. I can't put anybody else 140 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: on the stand. I know it's going to give false testimony. 141 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: I you just sit back and wait to see the 142 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 1: state makes their case. Yeah, you can rely on reasonable 143 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: doubt in the end. Now that's a that's a lousy 144 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 1: defense strategy most of the time, simply to rely on 145 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: reasonable doubt. That's not a compelling story to tell a jury, right, Um, 146 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 1: But it could be done. I've never had to do 147 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: that um to date, you know, because once there's a 148 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 1: breakthrough and they say, you know, I did it, it's 149 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 1: it's almost seamless to re state the objectives of the representation. 150 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: At that point, then it becomes you know, but I 151 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: understand them, and I missed my kids high school graduation. 152 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: Is there any way I cannot miss his college graduation? 153 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 1: You know? Can you can you mitigate the consequences here 154 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: and guide me through this? Um And if the relationship 155 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 1: is good and trusting in both directions, it hasn't ever 156 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: yet come down to you know, I want you to 157 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 1: go in and try to buffalo jury. There's a guy 158 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: that I know worked at some mortgage lending company got 159 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: mixed up in the mortgage scandal prosecutable offense. His boss 160 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 1: is he was like a fourth tier junior executive at 161 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 1: this company. And then that's a generous title. It was 162 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 1: really just a bunch of guys working in some office 163 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 1: in New York, and long story short, as they wound 164 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 1: up going after him and squeezing him to give up 165 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:40,560 Speaker 1: everybody up above him, and then they would continue to 166 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:43,200 Speaker 1: squeeze up the chain. And uh, I mean obviously what 167 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 1: I'm getting towards here was prosecutorial overreach, if you will, 168 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 1: or whatever term you want to use. I don't want 169 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:51,839 Speaker 1: to say, is there were a kind of guy like 170 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 1: the prosecutor in the Dascy case. It was Ken Kratz. 171 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: I don't want to say that Kratz is symbolic of 172 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 1: the kind of people the go into that line of work. 173 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: But at the very least there's a lot of temptation 174 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 1: for those people, isn't there to abuse their power. That's 175 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:10,679 Speaker 1: part of why I flopped as a prosecutor. I mean, 176 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: you you have to have that overriding belief in social 177 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 1: order that warrants using people instrumentally, you know, sort of 178 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:23,680 Speaker 1: squeezing somebody to get the next bigger guy and then 179 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 1: squeezing that one to get the one above him. And 180 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 1: I couldn't do that. This happens that client comes in, 181 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 1: potential client comes in, You meet with him, he lays 182 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:38,200 Speaker 1: it all out and you know my reactions. Look, you're cooked. 183 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: They've got you, and they're gonna want you to cooperate 184 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 1: against others, and you probably should. That's probably your best 185 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 1: option at this point. And I don't do that. I'm 186 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 1: not the right lawyer for that. I suck at working 187 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 1: with agents and you know, negotiating those kinds of deals, 188 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: it's not interesting. I mean, there's no real legal work involved. 189 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 1: There are lawyers who are very good at that, and 190 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 1: it has to be done, but is it understood in 191 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 1: your field when you go into the courtroom. Those guys 192 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 1: have the edge when you win the case, you really 193 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:14,319 Speaker 1: want the kids. They've got every advantge. That's absolutely right. 194 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 1: They really do. Um. And that's not to say that 195 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 1: a lot of them don't work hard. And you know, 196 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 1: terrific lawyers and most prosecutors are on the up and up, 197 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 1: absolutely and committed to what they're doing and ethical and 198 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 1: you know all that good stuff. I want to win 199 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 1: the case on the merits, yes, yeah, and want to 200 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 1: do you know, want to do what's fair most of them, 201 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: and so you know that's good. But um, but you're right, 202 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 1: they're always the state. You know, they've got the state's resources. 203 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:46,959 Speaker 1: They've got the base limited legal fees. I always say, 204 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 1: these people, they're never going to run out of money. Yeah. 205 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: And and in this country, they've got the basic presumption 206 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: of legitimacy, you know, even opposed to other countries. Yeah, yes, um, 207 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: I mean even with the anti government sent him that 208 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: you'll see rising in you know, sort of conservative populism. 209 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: Even with that, most Americans at the you know, at 210 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: the ground level, you know, if they're serving on a 211 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 1: jury in a criminal thing, he did it. I think, 212 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: if he's charged he did it. They trust the basic 213 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: ground level competence of our government institutions. Mostly so as 214 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 1: a lawyer practicing privately in the state of Wisconsin, so 215 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 1: your first awareness of the every Dassy situation was in 216 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: the media. You followed the case of the and his 217 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 1: exoneration back in two thousand three. Um, when he was 218 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 1: freed for the rape he didn't commit. It was all 219 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 1: over the paper and in and in the chambers of 220 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:47,839 Speaker 1: courtrooms in in in Milwaukee and beyond the Wisconsin How 221 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:49,959 Speaker 1: did that reverber rate there? I mean, were the guys 222 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: who were humiliated did they take that hard when they 223 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: were humiliated that way? I think a lot of them 224 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: did um. I think some of them engaged in outright 225 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 1: counterfactual thinking. Um that well, you know, maybe the DNA 226 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 1: test is wrong, or maybe there were two assailants and 227 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:12,320 Speaker 1: for some reason, you know, this poor victim only only 228 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 1: told us about one, you know, preposterous stuff. But you know, 229 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 1: more broadly, the when DNA exonerations started happening, it wasn't 230 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 1: quite an existential crisis for the prosecution apparatus in this country, 231 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: but I think it was a moment where they had 232 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 1: to look in the mirror. You know, we we sort 233 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 1: of the hubrist that we don't get things wrong, or 234 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 1: that we you know, juries always come to the right outcome, 235 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: and judges weed out the cases that ought to be 236 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 1: weeded out, and prosecutors dropped the things that ought to 237 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: be prosecuted. That hubris just couldn't be maintained in the 238 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 1: same way anymore. You had to acknowledge a known error rate, 239 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 1: and then acknowledge the possibility that there was an unknown 240 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: error rate, that it was even you know, larger. In 241 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: the show, you are sented. I'm not gonna say you 242 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 1: present yourself, but you appear, you know, very trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, 243 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 1: and reference if every quick I touched all those offerences there, 244 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 1: I still remember that all these years later. But you 245 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:17,080 Speaker 1: do seem like a pretty solid citizen there. So I 246 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: was assuming that you wouldn't maybe want to comment on this. 247 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 1: But Patrick Willis was the judge in the Avery case. 248 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 1: Is he still on the bench? He retired, he'd be tired? 249 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 1: How long ago? Three or four years? I'm guessing something 250 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 1: like that. Do you care to render any kind of 251 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 1: observations about him or evaluations of him? Do you find 252 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 1: it's better in your work if you don't do that? Well, 253 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 1: I actually like judge Willis. I did, and I do. 254 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: Um And look, we we elect our judges in Wisconsin 255 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 1: with open elections, you know, a trial judge every six years, 256 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 1: any lawyer can run against him or her. Like that system. No, 257 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: I don't like that and um and it and it 258 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: affects how judges behave, especially in cases they're getting a 259 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: lot of public attention. And um. You know, so what 260 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: you're seeing there is is a judge who's well above 261 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: the fiftieth percentile in a state that elects judges. I 262 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 1: think he tried to get things right. Um, and do 263 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 1: you know, do I think that he felt sort of 264 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 1: the pressure of public attention. Yeah, I do think you 265 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 1: felt the pressure of public attention to people who do 266 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: what you do. Have an instinct or you can tell 267 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 1: that the judge already thinks the person is guilty when 268 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 1: the case proceeding. Oh, sure you can tell. Sure. So 269 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 1: you found that this guy, he wanted to affirm what 270 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 1: the cops the prosecutors were saying. He's part of that system. 271 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 1: That is to say that almost every judge, in almost 272 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: every case, believes more guilty they you know, they lose, 273 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 1: they lose, really, they get habituated to guilt. They get 274 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 1: habituated to a Have you seen judges that are not 275 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: like that? Yes, on occasion in the case you see 276 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: a judges I'm not quite sure at the very least, right, 277 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 1: But boy, they have to hang onto that hardy. You know, 278 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 1: when of the people are pleading guilty in the end, 279 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: you know, and when you're seeing the same cops and 280 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: prosecutors every day, and you know you're going to retirement 281 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 1: parties together, it becomes a courthouse click and you gotta 282 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 1: hang on real hard to you know. The possibility of innocence. 283 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 1: When you watch Making a Murderer, what you get sucked 284 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 1: into it becomes a clue and it's almost like Demos 285 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: and mccayarty got people to start playing this game of 286 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 1: how many of these facts do you remember and how 287 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: do you piece them together? And you have a chance 288 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: to play lawyer for a little while. But as an 289 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 1: actual lawyer, what were some of the first things you 290 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 1: saw in the case when you said to yourself, this 291 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: is wrong. The key, the key, just something something doesn't 292 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: square with the police explanation for this. I can't you know, 293 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: you try to look at it from the other side. 294 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: You know, what's the prosecution You gonna say, what's their argument? 295 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 1: Can I parry that? You know, how do we handle that? 296 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,440 Speaker 1: And so you try to flip around your point of view. 297 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,439 Speaker 1: If I were them, if I were them, and I 298 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:15,919 Speaker 1: don't know what I'd say about that key. More on 299 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:21,119 Speaker 1: that key when we return explore the Here's the Thing archives. 300 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 1: I talked with Laura Richiardi and Morbid Demos, the filmmakers 301 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 1: of Making a Murderer who spent ten years capturing Stephen 302 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 1: every story. You know, we were there simply to document 303 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:34,679 Speaker 1: events as they were unfolding. You know, we were not 304 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 1: there to judge. We were there to listen and to witness. 305 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 1: Take a listen at Here's the thing. Dot Org. This 306 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. 307 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 1: Dean Strang is the former co council for Stephen Avery, 308 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:06,239 Speaker 1: a man convicted of a brutal murder, as documented by 309 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:10,159 Speaker 1: the ten part series Making a Murderer. The show sheds 310 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:14,119 Speaker 1: light on major flaws and the prosecution's case. Dean Strang 311 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:16,679 Speaker 1: says there was one piece of evidence in particular that 312 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 1: didn't add up. A key found in Avery's home during 313 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: the investigation. Well, this was the seventh search. Um the 314 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:28,679 Speaker 1: bedroom of a single wide trailer. The size of this 315 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:31,399 Speaker 1: booth were in about the size of this booth, were 316 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: in seriously about the size of the maybe a little 317 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 1: bit bigger. You've got a standard sized mattress in there. 318 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 1: Um And so that the key, you know, just didn't 319 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,879 Speaker 1: add up on the explanation the police were given for me, 320 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: to my eye, in terms of a tipping point in 321 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: the trial, I think it's when the judge allowed the 322 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 1: FBI analyst to testify to the e d T, a 323 00:18:56,200 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: testing which was when you say E d T A. 324 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 1: D T A was this preservative that is in vials 325 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 1: that are used, you know, to store blood, to keep 326 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 1: the blood liquid. And E d T A is a 327 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:15,159 Speaker 1: chemical that's used in all kinds of refresh our listeners memory, 328 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,439 Speaker 1: what what what happened there? Well, so you start, So 329 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 1: the blood was taken from Avery purpose for early DNA 330 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: testing that was inconclusive at that time. And so there 331 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 1: it sits in a vial after in a courthouse, in 332 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 1: the clerk's office in the courthouse, the custodians of which 333 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 1: are the Sheriff's department ultimately. And now you fast forward 334 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 1: November two, five trees the Hallbucks cars found there looks 335 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 1: like blood around the ignition, you know area on the 336 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 1: dashboard that blood gets collected. It's identified as being Stephen 337 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:58,280 Speaker 1: Avery's blood. How did it get there unless he was 338 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 1: bleeding and was in the car and you know, presumably 339 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 1: turning the key in the ignition. Well, this is you know, 340 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 1: and this is the you know, the game on moment 341 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:15,160 Speaker 1: in the trial, you know, with Jerry beating um. Where Wow, 342 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 1: there is a vial of Stephen Avery's blood in the courthouse. 343 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:25,120 Speaker 1: The seal on the box has been slit and when 344 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,440 Speaker 1: you open the box up, now that the seals slit 345 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:34,680 Speaker 1: without explanation, the blood still liquid. So could the blood 346 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: from that vial have ended up smeared on Teresa hallbox dash? 347 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: When the blood is still liquid? How in the way 348 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:45,440 Speaker 1: it wasn't refrigerated or frozen. It's in the continent, it 349 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:47,920 Speaker 1: remains good. There's a substance they put in there. Correct, 350 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:52,240 Speaker 1: The vial, as all are, is treated with this chemical 351 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 1: E d T, a chemical compound, just say as a 352 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: common It's in a lot of household goods. It's edible, 353 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: it's even you know, it's even in So when you 354 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 1: put that in there, it doesn't affect the DNA testing 355 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 1: of the blood people itself was It just keeps it 356 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,159 Speaker 1: liquid and we will always know that is that person's 357 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 1: budded matches. Well, yeah, it just makes it easier to test. 358 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:15,640 Speaker 1: So what was the ruling about? So the state now 359 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:19,880 Speaker 1: it's got a problem, right, Oh my god. The police 360 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 1: in theory did have access to his blood, and one 361 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,399 Speaker 1: of the officers involved in this investigation heavily was the 362 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: one who transported this violent blood back in nine I 363 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: knew where it was. Now it existed, and so what 364 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 1: do we do, you know, the States saying, what do 365 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 1: we do about that? Well, let's see if we can 366 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:44,119 Speaker 1: test the blood from the dashboard to see if it 367 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,399 Speaker 1: contains E t A, because if it doesn't, then the 368 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 1: hypothesis is it couldn't have come vile, couldn't have come 369 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:53,200 Speaker 1: from a vial because it would have E d t 370 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 1: A and if it had been in the vial, right, yeah, 371 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:02,119 Speaker 1: And so initially they said, Judge, you know, exclude the 372 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 1: blood vial and all this argument about planting the blood 373 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 1: because there's nobody who can do a test for E 374 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,199 Speaker 1: d t A and they were certainly can't do it 375 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:12,159 Speaker 1: in time. Judge said no, I'm gonna let it in. 376 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 1: And so then they got the They talked the FBI 377 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:20,639 Speaker 1: into going into into double time to try to you know, 378 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,439 Speaker 1: redo the E d t A testing. And I think 379 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 1: the last time the FBI had done that was in 380 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: the O. J. Simpson prosecution, where that was an issue 381 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: as well, and the E d t A was an 382 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 1: issue there. So the FBI had gotten out of that business, 383 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 1: and the State of Wisconsin talked them into getting back 384 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: into it. And then mid trial, you know, on a Friday, afternoon. 385 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,640 Speaker 1: As I recall, we get seven fifty pages of reports 386 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 1: and we're told the FBI analyst is going to come 387 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 1: in and say he couldn't detect E D T A 388 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 1: in the blood from the dashboard of the car. And 389 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 1: when the judge ultimately let that in, and of course 390 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 1: we couldn't do independent testing or defense testing at that point. 391 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,879 Speaker 1: We're five because we're four or five weeks in the trial, 392 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 1: and nobody but the FBI does this, and you know 393 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 1: it just you couldn't do it. We're we're just resource, 394 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:18,160 Speaker 1: no resources and no time. Uh but why no time? 395 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,119 Speaker 1: What you mean you couldn't because we were in trial, 396 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 1: We were five weeks into trial, and the judge wouldn't 397 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 1: have allowed you if you could have found an independent 398 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: source to determine something as significant as that, to have 399 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 1: a month off or something to go do that. I 400 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: don't think there was any way in the world the 401 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 1: judge would allow that. But is it safe to say 402 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 1: that the case potentially hinged on that? I thought that 403 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 1: was the tipping point in the trial. Um, did anybody 404 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,919 Speaker 1: subsequently find out? Did anybody go after the trial and 405 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: go and get the testing done so that they could 406 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: then publicize we had an independent test done that said 407 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 1: that there were traces of D. Did that happen? Not yet? 408 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: Not yet? You know. I find that the most difficult 409 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 1: thing for me to face this was in family law court. 410 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:05,639 Speaker 1: This is in criminal proceedings that friends of mine have 411 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 1: been involved in, civil proceedings that my ex wife was 412 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,719 Speaker 1: involved with. And that is that the job that is 413 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:16,120 Speaker 1: the toughest job, the job that requires the greatest attention 414 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 1: and acuity and intellect and bravery, is to be a judge. 415 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,399 Speaker 1: What people don't understand about the jurisprudence system in this country, 416 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 1: as far as I'm concerned, is is that you're sitting 417 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 1: there and the judges like according to case law. For me, 418 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 1: as a judge to rule, I can rule either way. 419 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,880 Speaker 1: I've got case law to rule in the way. Which 420 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 1: one of you do I like more? Which one of 421 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 1: you do I want to reward more? Whatever resembles truth 422 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,159 Speaker 1: rarely walks into or out of a U. S. Court Right. 423 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,120 Speaker 1: One of one of my favorite moments and favorite judges. 424 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 1: I'll remember this guy until I can't remember anyone anymore. 425 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 1: Um about five ft two quiet guy where hush puppies 426 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 1: only judge in a in a rural county in Wisconsin. 427 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:02,679 Speaker 1: And and and you know, and I had a number of 428 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 1: experiences with him and they were all good. He just 429 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: was judicial. He was careful, fair. I mean, you know, 430 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 1: you don't see that many like this, right, But but 431 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 1: the crystal heising moment for me. I had brought a 432 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 1: motion to suppress some evidence in a case and it 433 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 1: required testimony of a police officer and testimony of my client. 434 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 1: And the police officer was it was a good guy. 435 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 1: I liked. I liked that detective. I liked him. I 436 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:35,439 Speaker 1: thought he was a truth teller. Um. And so he 437 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,879 Speaker 1: testified at the suppression hearing. My client testified at the 438 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 1: suppression hearing. Um. She was a saleswoman, a little bit, 439 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,399 Speaker 1: a little bit brassy, a little bit hard edged. She 440 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,879 Speaker 1: was likable though in the end. And this guy said, 441 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,399 Speaker 1: you know, I heard the testimony and off, you know, 442 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 1: Detective so and so he was he was very credible, 443 00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 1: very believable, you know. But the defendant she was, she 444 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 1: was credible too. I you know, I have no reason 445 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 1: to disbelieve what she said. And and you know you 446 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 1: don't get this from judges usually, well they are you know, 447 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,119 Speaker 1: balancing the credibility. The officer was very credible, and you 448 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 1: know defendant was not. And he said they both were 449 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,920 Speaker 1: very very credible, believable people. Um, I have no real 450 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 1: reason to disbelieve either one of them. And that makes 451 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 1: this a very close case. And in our system of government, 452 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: close cases go to the defense emotions. Granted, I could 453 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,400 Speaker 1: have kissed him, I could have run up and kissed him. 454 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 1: He was it was, you know, and you just don't. 455 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 1: You don't have many experiences with judges like that. So 456 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 1: when the Avery case ends and he's found guilty again, 457 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,679 Speaker 1: described to me how you felt sick to my stomach. 458 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,479 Speaker 1: I mean I think I literally felt sick to my stomach. 459 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,360 Speaker 1: And I'm somebody who always tells himself, no matter how 460 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 1: well a case has gone, they're gonna come back guilty. 461 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: They're gonna come back guilty. They're gonna come back guilty. 462 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,959 Speaker 1: I have to tell myself that because I can, I 463 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 1: can deal. Yeah, I can deal with the the wonderful, 464 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:14,359 Speaker 1: you know, wonderful pleasant surprise. Different here, occasional acquittal, but 465 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 1: different here. Well, I had told myself, they're coming back guilty, 466 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 1: They're coming back guilty. But when you hear it, you 467 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: know when you actually hear it, and then you know 468 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,399 Speaker 1: the first verdict, first count guilty for screw intentional homicide 469 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 1: and then in the next breath not guilty of burning 470 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:38,840 Speaker 1: the body. You know, you you realize that a compromise 471 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 1: was struck, um, and that you know you you were 472 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,440 Speaker 1: in the game. You were you know it's not a game, 473 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,399 Speaker 1: but you were, you were, You were there, doubt somewhere. 474 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 1: You were there, and a compromise got struck and it 475 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 1: got away from you. And how did Avery strike you 476 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 1: in the time that you spent with him. Did you 477 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 1: look at him in his background, out in his profile 478 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 1: and say, this can be tough. Sure, he's not a 479 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 1: very articulate guy. No, no, And and he's been kicked 480 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:09,920 Speaker 1: around by the world. And so family was. And the 481 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 1: Stephen Avery I came to know projects exactly on the screen. 482 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,880 Speaker 1: It that Stephen Avery you're seeing in in this ten 483 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,639 Speaker 1: hour film and his parents, his family members is exactly 484 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 1: the guy I came to know and the people I 485 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 1: came to know. Um. It was remarkable how directly they 486 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 1: projected in an unfiltered way. Where is he now? He's 487 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: at upon correctional institution in Wisconsin. Our oldest our first 488 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 1: and therefore oldest prison still in use, and what is 489 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 1: the update if antying on his legal status. He's got 490 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 1: an aggressive, good new lawyer from the suburbs of Chicago, 491 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 1: assisted by an innocence project in Kansas City. They're working 492 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 1: really hard on this. Someone shaking a blood vial tree. 493 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 1: I hope I don't know, you know, I don't. I 494 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 1: don't know. Ask what she's doing. UM, I don't talk 495 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 1: to her. I'm there to help win and if she 496 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 1: wants it, um, you know, and I passed along information 497 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,959 Speaker 1: that comes to me and really should be going to her. Um. 498 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 1: But they're working really hard on the case. Were you 499 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 1: surprised at what kind of a firestorm that show created? Oh, 500 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 1: I'm surprised. Hardly begins to say it, you know, it 501 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 1: hardly begins to say it. I got my first email 502 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 1: at six thirty Central time the night that that came out. 503 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 1: A guy in Charleston, South Carolina had been home sick 504 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 1: from work and he'd watched all ten hours of it 505 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 1: and and then you know, it was moved for whatever 506 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 1: reason to google me and find my Well. But but 507 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 1: you know, funny you I think you it came out 508 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 1: on a Friday, December eighteenth, and I think you called 509 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 1: me on Monday, if I remember right. And I had 510 00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 1: been off to court somewhere and I came back to 511 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 1: my office and there's a voicemail and it's some guy 512 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 1: saying he's Alec Baldwin and it's sure as how it 513 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 1: sounds like Alec bald One to me, and uh, and 514 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 1: there's you know, there's a telephone number. And I thought 515 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 1: this is going to get weird. Things that are going 516 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 1: to change. But then I have changed and they have. 517 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 1: Now I can't say that Avery is capable of doing 518 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 1: the things that are described in the indictment, the sexual assault, 519 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 1: the you know, the abduction and tying them down and 520 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 1: killing them and burning them all this. I mean, it 521 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: just goes to this level from on a scale of 522 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 1: one attendants a twenty and I can't say that they 523 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 1: would do that, and I can't say that they wouldn't. 524 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 1: I'm just saying I don't think that it's proven in 525 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 1: the case that they did. But the next thing obviously 526 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 1: becomes to me like O J who said, I'm going 527 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: to spend the rest of my life finding out who 528 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 1: really did this. Um, I'm hard pressed to think who 529 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 1: would do that? Was any thought about alternative suspects? Yeah, no, 530 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 1: We we identified a number of people who have the 531 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 1: opportunity to do this, who are approximate, you know, nearby, 532 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 1: and who's past suggusted some legitimate tendency to worry about it. 533 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 1: The judge excluded all that. But on your point, I mean, 534 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: you're you're an actor. Um, if you were playing Brendan 535 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 1: Dascy and somebody handed you a script that says, okay, 536 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 1: a sixteen year old boy who's who's got some learning 537 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 1: disabilities and who's had zero sexual experience. The script calls 538 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 1: for this sixteen year old boy, you Alec Baldwin playing him, 539 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 1: to come over to his uncle's trailer and to be 540 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 1: told to come in, take off all his clothes, and 541 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 1: have sex in front of his uncle with a woman 542 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 1: who's manacled to kid and screaming for her life. You know, 543 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,840 Speaker 1: after he's walked home from school. Action right, you're gonna 544 00:31:55,880 --> 00:32:00,160 Speaker 1: throw the script back. He's gonna believe it's preposterous. It 545 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: you know, I can't make this work. I may be 546 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,520 Speaker 1: a great actor, but we're making the same point. You know. 547 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 1: One of the things that Moira and Laura we we 548 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 1: were you know, kind of underlined when they were here 549 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 1: was Mike callback and how the judge said, don't try 550 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 1: the case in the press. So the prosecutors basically did 551 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 1: Hall back the script. Did that irky when he was 552 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 1: doing that it, Yeah, I'd bothered me, um, you know, 553 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 1: And I'm not inclined to be too critical of a 554 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 1: bantam Stam's family. You know, they all process in their 555 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 1: own way. And he was very saying when the whole 556 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: time we do it was it was amazing how little 557 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: emotion there wasn't my callback? Well, I think he was 558 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 1: trying hard, you know, to do that. Mike's a nice guy, actually, 559 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: I'm just telling you. You know, he and his brother Tim, 560 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,239 Speaker 1: and the parents for that matter. Um, So I think 561 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 1: didn't they have any curiosity to find out potentially that 562 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 1: there was someone else that killed their sister. I don't know, 563 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 1: I can't. I'm just I'm just saying there for me 564 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:53,720 Speaker 1: that the two go hand in hand. I mean, maybe 565 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 1: a nice guy, but I thought, well, he has a 566 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 1: level of certainty. I would really want to know who 567 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 1: did it. You know. Well, you know we were circle 568 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 1: back too. We trust the police in most country in 569 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 1: the main most of us trust the police. Now things 570 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 1: have changed for you. I I was stunned to see 571 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 1: in Slate and I have to I have to cool 572 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 1: her out on this. That Heather Schweddle. I believe her 573 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 1: name is spelled in her peace and Slate was interviewing 574 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 1: you and she talked about how you become a heartthrob? 575 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 1: Is your legal practice just exploded? Now? Is everything just 576 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 1: going your way? Are you dressing differently? You're wearing your 577 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 1: hair differently? My wife several years ago, I started trying 578 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 1: to dress me better, um, you know, and I indulged 579 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,960 Speaker 1: that what'd your wife think about all this? Oh? She 580 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 1: she can hardly stop laughing. I mean that's um, heart throb. 581 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:46,960 Speaker 1: I'm not. But what's changed for you? Well? Here I 582 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: am in New York City talking to Alec Baldwin across 583 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 1: the doing a bunch of other things, and doing a 584 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:55,120 Speaker 1: bunch of talking at universities and colleges and bar groups 585 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 1: and charities and the you know, the theater stuff with 586 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 1: Jerry um so so sort of everything has changed, um 587 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:08,520 Speaker 1: in the last few months, and it will change back again. Um, 588 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:12,440 Speaker 1: But you know there's a moment where you know, the 589 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:14,239 Speaker 1: things I've wanted to say for a long time, and 590 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 1: nobody wanted to hear. And now some people are are 591 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,319 Speaker 1: willing to give me an opportunity to say. When you 592 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:23,400 Speaker 1: speak before legal groups ESPEC especially or universities, give us 593 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 1: one of those things might be talk about the role 594 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 1: of class in our criminal justice system, and not just 595 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 1: how poorly we fund indigence defense, but why there are 596 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:38,760 Speaker 1: so many indigence to defend in the system. Linkage between 597 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:44,480 Speaker 1: class and race and ethnicity, UM, the role of electing judges, UH, 598 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 1: police interview techniques with people who are vulnerable or unsophisticated, 599 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 1: often learning disabled. There's any number of things that that 600 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,759 Speaker 1: you know that I'm glad America's getting a glimpse of 601 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 1: how this really works. No offense intended. But not in 602 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,920 Speaker 1: a movie, you know, not not in a fictional account. 603 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,759 Speaker 1: So UM, for the time I think I've got a 604 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:17,399 Speaker 1: duty to speak up, we'll be able to hear Dean 605 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:21,720 Speaker 1: Strang speak up even more. Dean Strang Road to Justice, 606 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:26,240 Speaker 1: an eight episode television series, is now in development. Strang 607 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,319 Speaker 1: will study big time cases that expose the weaknesses in 608 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 1: our criminal justice system. Sign me up. This is Alec 609 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,399 Speaker 1: Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing