Speaker 1: Novel. A listener note this episode contains violence and content
Speaker 1: that some listeners might find distressing. Previously, on deliver Us
Speaker 1: from Hervill, Hervil thought that if he got rid of Joel,
Speaker 1: he could just move in and take leadership with Joel's people. Well,
Speaker 1: it didn't work. That's the problem. He told me about
Speaker 1: a group of polygamous that were in town to kill someone.
Speaker 1: It's started with great on almost Morino on December nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy four, in the events that led up to that,
Speaker 1: So doing jump? Are you nervous? Martin? Normal? What? What
Speaker 1: are we doing here? Nothing's happening. I understand that they're
Speaker 1: affiliated with the Church of the Lamb of God. Is
Speaker 1: that correct? I have been affiliated with what was called
Speaker 1: the Church of the Lamba. I guess you wouldn't know
Speaker 1: how they got back to get into the car in
Speaker 1: the first place with him, and he just turned me
Speaker 1: and said, didn't marry or pay for this is your
Speaker 1: last chance. They felt that they were putting somebody up
Speaker 1: and Ma Sree, the Lord wants this done. Nan upstairs says,
Speaker 1: we just got to keep rid of Brillin. It's just
Speaker 1: ruling the people and leave them the straight. We ended
Speaker 1: up behind the doctor Joflson. The vehicles were waiting there.
Speaker 1: The guys handed us outguns and gave us encouraging words
Speaker 1: and send us all away. Every city police tonight say
Speaker 1: they have no lead. Jepps on who the two women
Speaker 1: were who entered the office of polegamous leader of ruling
Speaker 1: all read yesterday and shot him dead? Where did you
Speaker 1: shoot him, Chessad, I can't time at all. How did
Speaker 1: you feel when you pulled the trigger? And she said glibly.
Speaker 1: If you want to know that, you'll have to read
Speaker 1: the book. Honestly, it was like losing him all over again.
Speaker 1: Close your eyes and imagine you're in a cave chained.
Speaker 1: All you can see is a blank wall. There's a
Speaker 1: fire burning outside the cave, and from time to time
Speaker 1: you can see shadows passing in front of the fire,
Speaker 1: flickering shadows. You and the other people in the cave
Speaker 1: give names to these shadows. They form your perception of reality.
Speaker 1: They are your reality. Then one day suddenly you break free,
Speaker 1: leave the cave, see the fire outside making its projections.
Speaker 1: But the fire hurts your eyes, and even if someone
Speaker 1: were to tell you the fire is projecting the objects
Speaker 1: onto the cave wall, you wouldn't believe it, so you
Speaker 1: run back into the cave to the comfort of your reality.
Speaker 1: If you've ever taken a philosophy class, you probably know
Speaker 1: the story. It's Plato's allegory of the cave, a fundamental
Speaker 1: understanding that in some sense applies to all of us,
Speaker 1: whether we are religious or not, the understanding that our
Speaker 1: reality is formed by our perceptions. As a journalist who
Speaker 1: often writes about faith, Plato's Cave comes to mind a lot,
Speaker 1: especially when I talk to people who have left fundamentalist religions,
Speaker 1: be because they often grew up removed from the world
Speaker 1: at large, grew up in a religion that taught the
Speaker 1: world outside is dangerous to be mistrusted. There was always
Speaker 1: just a sense of fear, or always so much fear.
Speaker 1: This is one of those conversations with Gabriella, who was
Speaker 1: raised in a fundamentalist Mormon cultum I was about five
Speaker 1: years old, four or five years old, terrified of the
Speaker 1: outside world. I'm playing this because Gabriella's previous feelings about
Speaker 1: the world outside of her cult are indicative of many
Speaker 1: people who leave fundamentalist religions. When she first saw the
Speaker 1: fire outside the cave, she didn't want to face it
Speaker 1: like most people, she ran back inside the cave. I
Speaker 1: was I wasn't going along with idol. Why not because
Speaker 1: I honestly believed in it and the truth was to
Speaker 1: pain full to face. And so I prayed and I
Speaker 1: asked God to show me what to do. And I
Speaker 1: remember I was like, look, God, I'm here, I don't
Speaker 1: know what to do. You're not telling me what to do.
Speaker 1: I'm ready. I was so ready. We never got answers. Okay,
Speaker 1: so this is a problem with us. In Plato's allegory,
Speaker 1: that prisoner breaks free, then returns to the cave, but
Speaker 1: then someone, some mystery person, drags them back outside for
Speaker 1: a second time. It takes a minute, but their eyes
Speaker 1: do eventually adjust to the light and they can begin
Speaker 1: to see things as they are. I was really asking myself,
Speaker 1: if God is real, if what we were believing is real,
Speaker 1: then why didn't all of these miracles that are supposed
Speaker 1: to happen. How come none of them ever happened. They
Speaker 1: realize the outside world is better than the cave. They've
Speaker 1: chained themselves to a wall from most of their life
Speaker 1: in this tightly controlled space, when there was so much
Speaker 1: more to see to experience that the reality in the
Speaker 1: cave was a distortion. It was like, your idea of
Speaker 1: reality is clashing with actual reality. I was like, okay,
Speaker 1: in that case, I don't know anything. I don't know anything.
Speaker 1: Of course, not all stories take the same course. Not
Speaker 1: all fundamentalists have the same experience breaking free. But in
Speaker 1: Plato's allegory, the person goes back to the cave a
Speaker 1: third time, this time to try to convince people to
Speaker 1: come with them, to share in what they've seen, but
Speaker 1: nobody listens. In their minds, the person venturing outside the
Speaker 1: cave has been blinded by looking at the fire. They
Speaker 1: are now a danger, and in Plato's allegory, the cave
Speaker 1: dwellers decided to kill them. If you're not religious, you
Speaker 1: may think this all doesn't apply to you. But this
Speaker 1: isn't just about former fundamentalists like Gabriella. Because most of
Speaker 1: us are tribal in some way, and if we leave
Speaker 1: that tribe, be it our family, community, even a political affiliation.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's hardwired into us. We know it's risky. It
Speaker 1: goes back to our earliest ancestors. You leave the tribe,
Speaker 1: you're dead. Maybe your old tribe sees you as a
Speaker 1: threat and tries to eliminate you. You betrayed them, after all,
Speaker 1: if I told you that your reality was a lie,
Speaker 1: you'd push back right. Please were closing in on Herville
Speaker 1: and his followers, but so far the Church of the
Speaker 1: Lamb of God had stayed one step ahead. As far
Speaker 1: as tribes go, they seemed united, loyal, this mafia style
Speaker 1: clan with an unbreakable code. They knew the cost of
Speaker 1: speaking up, of leaving the tribe. It was death. But
Speaker 1: light was starting to stream into the cave. A few
Speaker 1: had ventured outside enough to wonder if the shadows they
Speaker 1: were seeing on the wall were real or the mad
Speaker 1: ravings of a psychotic prophet. Herville must have known that
Speaker 1: if any of them broke free long enough to see
Speaker 1: the outside world, they would leave reject that tight, cloistered,
Speaker 1: suffocating existence he'd created of stomach rumbling, poverty, and sadistic
Speaker 1: murder of their own kin. The whole thing would collapse.
Speaker 1: But the thing about Plato's legory is to fulfill it,
Speaker 1: someone from Hervil's group needed to be the first to
Speaker 1: break free, and they did, Like Judas when he gave
Speaker 1: away Jesus with a kiss on the cheek from the
Speaker 1: Team's at novel and I Heart Radio. This is deliver
Speaker 1: us from Herville. I'm Jesse Hyde chapter six. The betrayal
Speaker 1: of all the murders carried out by Herville and his
Speaker 1: followers in the years up to perhaps the hardest to
Speaker 1: stomach is the killing of his daughter, Rebecca. Maybe killing
Speaker 1: his own brother Joel should have indicated nothing was off limits.
Speaker 1: Yet the killing of Rebecca LeBaron in April of nineteen
Speaker 1: s who was three months pregnant at the time, show
Speaker 1: just how far his followers were willing to go. But
Speaker 1: Rebecca's murder has another significance. Her death was the catalyst
Speaker 1: for an insider to betray Hervil. Rebecca LeBaron was the
Speaker 1: seventh child of Delfina Salito LeBaron, Irville's first wife. He
Speaker 1: married her back in nineteen fifty. Rebecca's killing in April
Speaker 1: seventy seven was kind of an open secret in the colt,
Speaker 1: but no one told her mother, Delfina. That is until
Speaker 1: June of seven, when a child in the colt let
Speaker 1: it slip. The secret was out. Delfina flipped, initially just figuratively,
Speaker 1: raging against the members of the cult, but this instinctive
Speaker 1: reaction now put Delphina's life at risk, because the same
Speaker 1: cult members who saw Rebecca as a loose cannon now
Speaker 1: saw Delphina as a threat and someone who had to
Speaker 1: be silenced too. Delphina must have realized this because not
Speaker 1: long after her outburst of grief and rage, she tried
Speaker 1: to flee to Mexico to escape the colt. And while
Speaker 1: this was all happening, word of Delphina's flight from Rvil's
Speaker 1: colt had reached the cops. She called her sister in
Speaker 1: San Diego, and that sister called Dick Forbes. This is
Speaker 1: Larive's Stubbs, whose family helped settle Colonial LeBaron back in
Speaker 1: episode one. Ever since Mervil's followers had killed her prophet
Speaker 1: Joel LeBaron, she and her husband had been leading the
Speaker 1: resistance to Evil's colt. She dedicated every spare minute trying
Speaker 1: to track him down and bring him to justice. And so,
Speaker 1: now hearing Delfina was leaving the colt, it was Larive
Speaker 1: down in Colonial LeBaron that the detective Dick Forbes called
Speaker 1: to help bring Delfina in, hoping she could be persuaded
Speaker 1: by Larive to testify against the Colt Delfina, which was
Speaker 1: herbl's wife. Dick Forbes told us that he needed to
Speaker 1: take her to Salt Lake and what would it take.
Speaker 1: But hearing all this, Larive's concern was for Delfina. She
Speaker 1: knew her life was now in danger from hervil's assassins.
Speaker 1: They were already on the plane to go get rid
Speaker 1: of her because they want her talking. They thought there's
Speaker 1: a potential she would get killed before she could testifies it.
Speaker 1: Of course, you think they weren't after her The minute
Speaker 1: she left, Dick Forbes told Larive they needed to act fast.
Speaker 1: Delfina was on a bus traveling through Texas en route
Speaker 1: to Mexico. The bus was going to be making a
Speaker 1: stop in the border city of El Paso. It's about
Speaker 1: two hundred miles from Colonial a baron a four hour
Speaker 1: drive on a good day. Could Larive get there before
Speaker 1: Hervil's killers. And he says, she's going to be there
Speaker 1: at three o'clock in the morning. And I had to
Speaker 1: get up in my house down here, drive Dale Passo
Speaker 1: and be in that bus stop at three o'clock. And
Speaker 1: the law was on its way to that El Paso
Speaker 1: bus stop too, So we're the ones that met her
Speaker 1: in al Passo, and it was clear ful of FBI
Speaker 1: and CIA and whatever you get it. So they all
Speaker 1: converged just in time, and we've interceded, picked her up,
Speaker 1: had guys there from Salt Lake that night at three
Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning. They flew in next morning. She says, well,
Speaker 1: I'll go if Luria will go with me. So there
Speaker 1: I was stuck for three weeks, and I was pretty
Speaker 1: upset because I had little kids and I needed to
Speaker 1: be home. But I went Larive put her life in
Speaker 1: Mexico on hold and traveled up to Utah because for her,
Speaker 1: stopping herbal had become a single minded mission to stop
Speaker 1: the killing. We did go after him with a law
Speaker 1: and we worked with Mormon FBI, c I, a UM
Speaker 1: and with everybody. Oh, I just wanted to know me
Speaker 1: did it day and night, damn night. When the reef
Speaker 1: talks about Mormon law enforcement agencies, she's referring to Dick
Speaker 1: Forbes and other officials. Not only were they from Mormon backgrounds,
Speaker 1: but they had taken to heart the advice of journalist
Speaker 1: Del van Ada. Remember it was Dale back in episode
Speaker 1: four who had told police to learn and respect the
Speaker 1: intricacies of Mormon doctrine, and that had allowed police to
Speaker 1: build trust a little by little, trust at all those
Speaker 1: guys because I watched him, and I watched him in
Speaker 1: law enforcement rely on you guys for information for everything,
Speaker 1: because they had all the records on the barrens, you know,
Speaker 1: but they didn't know the difference of those who were
Speaker 1: against Cervill and those who were for it. Tips and
Speaker 1: then you would let them know we didn't hear tips.
Speaker 1: We helped him everything they needed, and we knew all
Speaker 1: the families. This was a big thing for Larive agreeing
Speaker 1: to work with cops. Think about it from her position
Speaker 1: as one of those refugees in Mexico leaving the US
Speaker 1: as a team because the cops were rounding up and
Speaker 1: arresting Polygamus. She'd been told never to trust the U
Speaker 1: S authorities. If it was me, even the risk of
Speaker 1: becoming a target of Herville would have made me think twice.
Speaker 1: I wasn't terrified because I believed more in getting him
Speaker 1: behind bars that he can't keep killing. And everybody been
Speaker 1: worried about me and for the cops, Larive's intervention was
Speaker 1: crucial because getting Delphina safely in custody was one thing,
Speaker 1: but now they needed her to talk to them too,
Speaker 1: and Larive was able to help them do that. Why
Speaker 1: was Delphina such a key witness. She's his first wife
Speaker 1: and all his kids are hers, and you had to
Speaker 1: be careful even with her. You couldn't just push and shove.
Speaker 1: But she ended up telling everything. What Larive means by
Speaker 1: everything here is well the killing of Joel, the killing
Speaker 1: of Ruling all Read, the killing of Bob Simons, and
Speaker 1: invest and on and on the killing of Rebecca, her daughter.
Speaker 1: She was the first cult member to give them this
Speaker 1: inside information that said Delfina hadn't actually witnessed any of
Speaker 1: these murderers firsthand. She just heard about them through the
Speaker 1: family grapevine. For prosecutors to get convictions, the cops were
Speaker 1: going to need more. You see, nobody has all the information.
Speaker 1: I don't know what you know about law work, but
Speaker 1: everybody has a little piece and that little piece and
Speaker 1: that little piece and that little piece. And this is
Speaker 1: where Delphina's son came in, a kid named Isaac. Isaac,
Speaker 1: just fourteen years old in nineteen seventy seven, had actually
Speaker 1: been at the April twenty meeting that year the emergency
Speaker 1: military meeting. The meeting when Herville ordered the killing of
Speaker 1: Roulin Alread and Rlin le Baron and told the colt
Speaker 1: how he wanted it done. Isaac was a witness. Delphina
Speaker 1: told this to the cops, and she was also able
Speaker 1: to tell them where Isaac was currently living. On July
Speaker 1: n seventy seven, the police swooped in for Isaac, descending
Speaker 1: on an unremarkable looking single story suburban home in Dallas.
Speaker 1: Here the cult had a safe house. Now in police custody,
Speaker 1: At first, Isaac was terrified refused to say anything to
Speaker 1: the cops, but over time they gained his trust too,
Speaker 1: and two weeks later in August, he started to talk.
Speaker 1: It was really a key break in the case, and
Speaker 1: basically at that point and we were on our way.
Speaker 1: This is David Yoakum, the lead Utah prosecutor. He'd been
Speaker 1: trying to bring Ruling Alread's killers to justice from the
Speaker 1: very beginning. I said, I attended the scene at the
Speaker 1: day of the killing. I had actually been out there
Speaker 1: where they were wheeling run Alread out of his office
Speaker 1: on a gurney, and my good friend and detective on
Speaker 1: the case and informed me they had no idea at
Speaker 1: the time who was responsible or why I was killed.
Speaker 1: When he first started on the case, Yoakum thought he'd
Speaker 1: found his key break in an evidence hall near the
Speaker 1: crime scene, two men were looking through a large dumpster
Speaker 1: outside of their store and found a grocery sack full
Speaker 1: of things that looked strange to them. It had included
Speaker 1: a gun box which had a serial number attached to it,
Speaker 1: and since the murder had just occurred down the street,
Speaker 1: they turned over these things to the Murray Place department.
Speaker 1: Some of this evidence had sent the investigators in the
Speaker 1: All Red murder on a bit of a wild goose chase.
Speaker 1: They traced the serial number on the box through the
Speaker 1: FBI and found out the box had been purchased in Denver, Colorado.
Speaker 1: It had been purchased by a cult member who had
Speaker 1: no further involvement in the killing, and before the cops
Speaker 1: had insider information from the colt, they thought the gun
Speaker 1: box link meant they had their shooter. Then they found
Speaker 1: out she had an airtight alibi, so they were right
Speaker 1: back to squa are one and David Yoakum was starting
Speaker 1: to fill the heat because what he was learning about
Speaker 1: herville and his cult. From the investigation was telling him
Speaker 1: just how serious stopping this all was because of the
Speaker 1: power that he held over a group of individuals and
Speaker 1: the authority he claimed, and that he could actually command
Speaker 1: people on his name to murder other people. I felt
Speaker 1: that it was so significant, and saying this was significant
Speaker 1: is saying something for Yoakum, who had seen some heavy
Speaker 1: ship in his career. In fact, just a few years
Speaker 1: before this case, he had been the first to successfully
Speaker 1: prosecute serial killer Ted Bundy. You know, Ted Bundy was
Speaker 1: responsible for a lot of murders, but it wasn't like
Speaker 1: he had a whole group of people that he commanded
Speaker 1: to kill. He was his sole killer, which is bad enough,
Speaker 1: But here Herville had the control over people that he
Speaker 1: could order them to kill members of his own group.
Speaker 1: He actually had his own daughter murdered, which is pretty
Speaker 1: damn scary. But a very evil person that was worse
Speaker 1: than I think a serial killer. So yeah, from August
Speaker 1: seventy seven onwards, when Isaac started giving cops and prosecutors
Speaker 1: witnessed demons from the secret meetings of the cult where
Speaker 1: killings were being ordered. Significant probably doesn't cover it. It
Speaker 1: was a huge break in the case. He started giving information.
Speaker 1: We call it the twentieth Conservation meeting or Herville conducted
Speaker 1: a medium as group and talked about selecting two women
Speaker 1: to come to Utah to kill a false prophet. This
Speaker 1: is an emergency military meeting April where the all Red
Speaker 1: and Virlin murder plans were announced. This young man had
Speaker 1: a very good memory of that and started giving us
Speaker 1: name teams of individuals that were present and who's who.
Speaker 1: This included a name for the killer of Dr Roulin Alrett.
Speaker 1: Rina Channath Yoakum felt they were ready to make arrests.
Speaker 1: That's coming up after the break. By the summer of
Speaker 1: fractures and fissures had begun to appear in Evil's once
Speaker 1: ultra tight knit church of the Lamb of God. Paranoia
Speaker 1: and fear or in some cases, ego had set in.
Speaker 1: Lloyd and Don Sullivan, for example, had seen their roles
Speaker 1: greatly diminished. Lloyd had once held a roll near the
Speaker 1: top of Hervil's mafia like clan. Hearing Rena Channath's testimony
Speaker 1: years later revealed how he was the instigator for that
Speaker 1: raid on Los Molinos, carried out the hit on Robert Simons,
Speaker 1: and had been an advocate for Rebecca's murder too, Yet
Speaker 1: a series of botched hits meant he had now lost favor.
Speaker 1: The disillusionment went both ways. After the ruling ordered killing
Speaker 1: in May seven, Herville fled south of the border. He
Speaker 1: had left Lloyd in the US to clean up the mess.
Speaker 1: This had effectively left Lloyd in charge of the Colts
Speaker 1: American operations. Lloyd started to spend more and more time
Speaker 1: with Rena, one of Evil's handpicked assassin's and at one
Speaker 1: time one of his favorite wives. We were getting familiar
Speaker 1: with each other. Tell me how wonderful it was playing
Speaker 1: on my motion, and he was telling me how wrong
Speaker 1: it was things had to turn out with durable, how
Speaker 1: much he how desirable I was, and how that it
Speaker 1: was that I was so unhappy with the woman it
Speaker 1: couldn't be right. This is Rena in that interview for
Speaker 1: her book with the writer Dean Shapiro years later. Here
Speaker 1: she's recalling how after Rulin Alred's murder, Lloyd Sullivan had
Speaker 1: suddenly started having his own revelations from God. Lloyd's decided
Speaker 1: he was a prophet that needed to write, and so
Speaker 1: he was writing, and I was typing for him. Just
Speaker 1: like for Herville. Rena was once again typing out the
Speaker 1: revelations of a self proclaimed prophet. But that wasn't the
Speaker 1: only role Lloyd had in mind for her. We were
Speaker 1: driving along in the truck and he had this revelation.
Speaker 1: But he said, oh my goodness, I just saw you
Speaker 1: and you were wearing this long, beautiful white dress. And
Speaker 1: he goes, of course, I'm waiting dress. That means you're
Speaker 1: supposed to marry me. This was all very confusing for Rena.
Speaker 1: Maybe God was in fact revealing to her that she
Speaker 1: should marry Lloyd, even though God had previously told her
Speaker 1: she should marry Herville. So she set off to Mexico,
Speaker 1: where Rvill was now hiding out, to tell Hervill she
Speaker 1: was through with him. Hervill's answer, absolutely not. He told
Speaker 1: me that Lloyd was worthless to me, and I was
Speaker 1: just cried on tears. Rena had hoped to break the
Speaker 1: news to Irville and be back in the US within
Speaker 1: a week, but now that she had revealed her true intentions,
Speaker 1: there was no way Irvill was letting her out of
Speaker 1: his sight. She was his prisoner, now locked away typing
Speaker 1: out more insane pamphlets, more unhinged and violent revelations. Their
Speaker 1: life ever since the Los Milino's raid had been nomadic
Speaker 1: to stay head of enemies real and imagined chasing them.
Speaker 1: And it continued traveling, Hi du running, driving, you know,
Speaker 1: stuck down there, next call in Healing Lenny, same old ship.
Speaker 1: But for Lloyd Sullivan back in the US, Rena's absence
Speaker 1: had done nothing to halt his split from Hervil. He'd
Speaker 1: already tried to steal Irvil's wife. He'd already called himself
Speaker 1: the real prophet. Now it was time to go all
Speaker 1: the way. In August of ninety seven, he penned an
Speaker 1: open letter to the Church of the Lamb of God.
Speaker 1: Why wasn't Herville over here in the US fighting the
Speaker 1: good fight? He asked? Why was he hiding out in Mexico.
Speaker 1: Then he dropped a bomb. He called Merville a son
Speaker 1: of perdition, that sinner who could only be atoned by death.
Speaker 1: This was a call to war, and there were only
Speaker 1: two ways it could go. Either Ervill would take out Lloyd,
Speaker 1: or Lloyd would have to find a way of getting
Speaker 1: to Irville. In the meantime, prosecutors against Irville had continued
Speaker 1: to build their case and on September nineteen seventy seven,
Speaker 1: Yoakum's team filed charges for murder, attempted murder, and conspiracy
Speaker 1: to commit murder against all of Rville's inner circle. Roughly
Speaker 1: two weeks later, homes and businesses controlled by the cult
Speaker 1: were raided by one of the largest joint law enforcement
Speaker 1: operations in the history of the American West, a massive
Speaker 1: sting operation over one police officers from Utah, Texas, Colorado,
Speaker 1: and Oklahoma. They were assisted by agents from the FBI
Speaker 1: and the Secret Service. The raid wasn't a total success.
Speaker 1: Many of the colts, including Herville and Rena, remained at large,
Speaker 1: but they did manage to catch at least one big fish.
Speaker 1: This is an interviews conducted in the County Attorney's office
Speaker 1: in Salt Lake City present County Attorney Investigator Dick Forbes.
Speaker 1: Interview will be conducted by National CITYPD. The cops had
Speaker 1: caught Lloyd Sullivan. I'd like to start out the interview
Speaker 1: by getting just a little bit of background. I understand
Speaker 1: that you're affiliated with are were affiliated with the Church
Speaker 1: of the Lamb of God? Is that correct? I have
Speaker 1: been affiliated with what was called the Church of the Lama.
Speaker 1: What was your position in the church at that time,
Speaker 1: you're At that time, I was studying with herbal two
Speaker 1: to the Commandments of the Lord. He teaches very very well,
Speaker 1: better than any man I've ever heard, and I was
Speaker 1: learning under him under his tutorship. At this point, Lloyd
Speaker 1: was already looking for ways to eliminate hervil as arrival,
Speaker 1: and now he realized the police could help him do it.
Speaker 1: So Lloyd started talking to the cops. He gave them
Speaker 1: the inside line on many of the cults murders, from
Speaker 1: the killing of Joel, the raid on Los Molinos, and
Speaker 1: other killings like the murder of Rvil's daughter Rebecca. Having
Speaker 1: a knowledge and being intimate with people in that group
Speaker 1: where most of them prone to follow out commandments without question, yes,
Speaker 1: of that magnitude. Yes, let's say that the Lord you
Speaker 1: do this no hesitation. Have you heard her will give
Speaker 1: other people similar commandments? Yes, He's given him to me.
Speaker 1: And did you have that same feeling about it that
Speaker 1: it was in fact God's commandment? I did. What would
Speaker 1: happen if you failed to carry out that type of commandment?
Speaker 1: Dead or who whoever was commanded and refused? Was there
Speaker 1: any question about that in your mind? That if you
Speaker 1: refused to carry out a commandment that you would be killed.
Speaker 1: Never with Lloyd Sullivan giving them information, Forbes and Yoakum
Speaker 1: now had a network of informants. Together with people in
Speaker 1: colonial LeBaron like Larife Stubbs, their intelligence on the Church
Speaker 1: of the Lamb of God was growing, how they operated,
Speaker 1: how they thought, who was currently in favor, but also
Speaker 1: crucially the location of the remaining fugitive cult members who
Speaker 1: had so far eluded arrest. In the early morning hours
Speaker 1: of October thirty one, in a rural part of Mexico,
Speaker 1: not far from Mexico City, Federals closed in on an
Speaker 1: apartment complex. Inside We're Rina chinaf hervil A Baron, some
Speaker 1: of Hervill's other wives, Dan Jordan's, his right hand man,
Speaker 1: and other remaining members of L's inner circle, all hiding
Speaker 1: out together. Rena had been typing yet another pamphlet till
Speaker 1: late into the night and had fallen asleep on a
Speaker 1: blanket on the floor of one of the bedrooms. At
Speaker 1: one in the morning, without warning, Federals crashed through the door. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they had automatic Shane Gainst pointed at us, and there
Speaker 1: must have been five or six of them and I
Speaker 1: can't remember if they weren't wearing army fatigues or anything
Speaker 1: when we're wearing street clos Then they came roaring into
Speaker 1: the bedroom. This is Rena in that interview with writer
Speaker 1: Dean Shapiro. At this point in the fall of seventy eight,
Speaker 1: Rena had already had one child with Herville. Rena was
Speaker 1: now three months pregnant with their second child. I said, well,
Speaker 1: can I put some clothes on or something here? And
Speaker 1: the guy said, well, okay, and let us go in
Speaker 1: the bathroom. We have to stand with the door open,
Speaker 1: And so I got some clothes on and they took
Speaker 1: me out and handcuffed me, hands behind my back, and
Speaker 1: they put me in this van outside and left me
Speaker 1: there all night. Sitting in the van, her hands cuffed
Speaker 1: and her feet tied, Rena looked for Irville, expecting to
Speaker 1: see him being led away in handcuffs too, but instead,
Speaker 1: as she looked out into the darkness, she saw the
Speaker 1: Federali's leading out Dan Jordan's. They brought Dan Jordan out
Speaker 1: and put him in the van. They looked at him
Speaker 1: and it was picture and for some reason they decided
Speaker 1: that he wasserble middle of Kitty a lot. The cops
Speaker 1: had in fact questioned Herble that night, but he had
Speaker 1: played innocent, said he was just some minor follower of
Speaker 1: the Church of the Lamb of God, and the Federals
Speaker 1: didn't recognize him. It was when they'd found Dan Jordan's
Speaker 1: that they thought they had their main man. So they
Speaker 1: thought they were arresting hercles, so they thought they had
Speaker 1: and Dan and Garvey with him. Cops blindfolded both Rena
Speaker 1: and Dan and took them to a prison in the
Speaker 1: Mexican capital. And when we got to Mexico City, I
Speaker 1: laughed at the sergeant like face and they were trying
Speaker 1: to interview You had it right and new dressed, and
Speaker 1: you didn't even know what's new. Comes goes to prue.
Speaker 1: I felt, it just goes through that we're right and
Speaker 1: theyre wrong, because God, so you should escape. After Mexico City,
Speaker 1: the cops eventually handed Rena over to American law enforcement.
Speaker 1: They put us in the back of a car and
Speaker 1: they poled us to the ordered like two days, all
Speaker 1: day and all night, and we drove and over the
Speaker 1: gop you're fighting trap. They took us to the boarder
Speaker 1: in the rito. I tried to picture Arena there standing
Speaker 1: at the border, a river running free in front of her,
Speaker 1: about to cross from one life of captivity to another,
Speaker 1: free of herville, something she had dreamed of since he
Speaker 1: started to pursue her when she was just twelve years old.
Speaker 1: She had at times prayed God would strike her by
Speaker 1: lightning to end this nightmare, and now, miraculously, as she
Speaker 1: walked across the bridge leading from Mexico to Laredo, Texas,
Speaker 1: God had answered her prayers. Rena was free from the
Speaker 1: lambs of God, but headed to jail. The FBI today
Speaker 1: rested a key suspect in the nineteen seventy seven religious
Speaker 1: assassination of Polygamust patriarch ruling Alread. Agents arrested twenty year
Speaker 1: old Na Nath at the International Bridge in Laredo, Texas.
Speaker 1: Janath has charged with first degree murder and conspiracy to
Speaker 1: murder in the Alred case. Authorities have described the killing
Speaker 1: as a religious assassination ordered by the fanatic irvil LeBaron,
Speaker 1: the leader of a rival Polygamust cult. Ten people have
Speaker 1: been charged in the case. Most of the gang had
Speaker 1: now been caught, Detectives were now interrogating them, building a
Speaker 1: case for trial. LeBaron himself and one of his sons
Speaker 1: remain at large. The FBI said Shannav would appear at
Speaker 1: a federal removal hearing in Texas Monday and then be
Speaker 1: returned to Utah or prosecution. And surely it was just
Speaker 1: a matter of time before they caught Hervil himself, and
Speaker 1: when they did, the killing would stop. That was the
Speaker 1: hope anyway more. After the break m the trial of
Speaker 1: Rina China and other accomplished members of the Church of
Speaker 1: the Lamb of God began in a Salt Lake City
Speaker 1: corep room on Tuesday, March six. N David Yoakum, the
Speaker 1: man tasked with prosecuting the colt, he feared the trial
Speaker 1: was going to play out as an internal face off
Speaker 1: between cult members. There was a battle are between the
Speaker 1: group and blaming one another. You know which group of
Speaker 1: people were responsible here Roulin Alred's daughter Dorothy took her
Speaker 1: place in the courtroom. There was a great deal of
Speaker 1: angry energy emanating from Herville's people who attended the trial.
Speaker 1: There were just a lot of angry energy. Rena and
Speaker 1: the others had refused any kind of plea deal. As
Speaker 1: she told the writer of her memoir of years later
Speaker 1: at this point she was all in on a not
Speaker 1: guilty verdict. I think when they when it was mentioned
Speaker 1: to me, I said, no, you wanted now, we did
Speaker 1: this in God's name and we got darn or get
Speaker 1: us out of this. If you've ever sat in a
Speaker 1: courtroom during a trial, it can be surprising how mundane
Speaker 1: the proceedings are. Even murder trials are sometimes boring once
Speaker 1: the legal arguments are underway. This is why little things
Speaker 1: can make a big difference. Little things that cut through
Speaker 1: to make an impression on jurors, sometimes as much as facts,
Speaker 1: things that give them positive feelings about those called to speak.
Speaker 1: And the problem for prosecutor David Yoakum was that not
Speaker 1: many of his witnesses in the trial were likely to
Speaker 1: cut through in a particularly positive way. They weren't exactly
Speaker 1: sympathy addic, especially Don Sullivan. People were on trial. We're
Speaker 1: pointing their fingers at Don Sullivan, and then you know
Speaker 1: they were the supposed ringladers the whole thing, and that
Speaker 1: Rena had nothing to do with it. Don Sullivan, who
Speaker 1: had come across with his dad Lloyd, to cooperate with
Speaker 1: the cops. He had earlier pleaded guilty to conspiracy and
Speaker 1: agreed to testify in exchange for immunity from further prosecution.
Speaker 1: So this was a self confessed conspirator to murder two jurors.
Speaker 1: He probably seemed like a psychopath. On top of that,
Speaker 1: he'd been indoctrinated to live for years. So again not
Speaker 1: exactly a credible witness. And Rena's defense team we're saying
Speaker 1: Don was the one responsible. This was the internal face
Speaker 1: off between cult members. Yoakum was concerned about, and that
Speaker 1: kind of he said. She said reasonable doubt wasn't the
Speaker 1: only issue. The prosecution based all the publicity surrounding hervill
Speaker 1: Le baron, the local TV news coverage, the articles in
Speaker 1: newspapers and magazines, well, it had created a picture of
Speaker 1: the cult that was terrifying. In January nine nine, for example,
Speaker 1: the National Enquirer had run a front page with Hervill's
Speaker 1: mugshot blaming him and his cult for the assassination of JFK.
Speaker 1: He had that kind of notoriety now, and that freak
Speaker 1: jurors out. There was a failing that during the case
Speaker 1: that some of the jurors were actually concerned for their
Speaker 1: health and welfare because they were afraid that if they
Speaker 1: bought back a guilty verdict that Hervil group and Nervil's
Speaker 1: being out free, running around and still having a following,
Speaker 1: that they may be harmed if they found any member
Speaker 1: of the group guilty. The Mormon manson who could control
Speaker 1: killers with his mind, he seemed capable of anything, which
Speaker 1: is why to this day Yoakum is both grateful and
Speaker 1: inspired at the courage of people like Hervil's son Isaac
Speaker 1: agreeing to take the witness stand, and Yoakum had impartial
Speaker 1: witnesses too, like the woman who had sold Rena a
Speaker 1: disguise shortly before the killing of Roulin Alread. She remembered
Speaker 1: selling it to Rena, remembered her, well, that was kind
Speaker 1: of an ominous feeling to have somebody come up there
Speaker 1: and say you've been in this store, and that she'd
Speaker 1: never forget that face, and she remembered how happy and
Speaker 1: I wasn't it It's just kind of shone or something
Speaker 1: like that is beautiful. But other witnesses were less helpful
Speaker 1: to the prosecution, like one who was at the crime
Speaker 1: scene but couldn't pick Rena out of a photo lineup.
Speaker 1: They had that composite picture that that guy in the
Speaker 1: waiting room was hypnotized, and he gave it in posit
Speaker 1: and it looked more like dog full of him than
Speaker 1: my attorney had fun with that. This is the thing,
Speaker 1: this is who you said. It was under hypnosis and
Speaker 1: doesn't look anything like my client, if anything, looks like
Speaker 1: a man, and that's what they were stressing that it
Speaker 1: could have been a man dressed up and most likely
Speaker 1: could have been the States witness. Perhaps witnesses like this
Speaker 1: one explain why David Yocum felt like he needed to
Speaker 1: close his argument with some kind of grand flourish, or
Speaker 1: perhaps that was always going to be his style. My
Speaker 1: closing arguments always were quite strong. I was accused many
Speaker 1: many times unethical conduct, and in cases I'd go right
Speaker 1: up to the wall, I'd say, and but not stepping
Speaker 1: over the line, and that I just pushed my cases
Speaker 1: to the brink either way. David Yoakum strode towards the
Speaker 1: judge and slammed a copy of the Bible onto the
Speaker 1: table in front of him. Both jury members and even
Speaker 1: the defendant were a little taken aback. I remember Yokum
Speaker 1: picking up that Bible and slamming back down on the
Speaker 1: judges bench on the table in front of the judges bench,
Speaker 1: where yeah, it's and I thought that was kind of shocked.
Speaker 1: And I don't imagine everybody else. I can only imagine
Speaker 1: what everybody else felt where he did that, and he's
Speaker 1: very coffee David Yoakum wasn't worried about shocking people. That
Speaker 1: was the point, so the jury would wake up to
Speaker 1: the threat posed by Hervil's colt bring them to justice.
Speaker 1: And he felt the cops and prosecutors had made their case.
Speaker 1: Now it was up to the jury to find Rina
Speaker 1: Chanof and her accomplices guilty of killing. Ruling alread. Even
Speaker 1: though we didn't have a saw eyewitness testimony that she
Speaker 1: was on the pole the trigger, I was pretty confident
Speaker 1: that we had sufficient evidence to convict Rena. The pretty
Speaker 1: felt that we had a good case. Just four hours later,
Speaker 1: the jury of six women and two men were filing
Speaker 1: back into the core room with a verdict, and I said,
Speaker 1: the verdict was in. When I went back to the courtroom,
Speaker 1: my attorney were there and he was concerned because normally
Speaker 1: when the jury reached that quickly it's Rena sat alongside
Speaker 1: her lawyer, a guy named John McConnell, and I was
Speaker 1: leaving John's hats a herd. I could hardly I imagine
Speaker 1: blood was stop. That was not so chuit, waiting too
Speaker 1: well for that. And uh, we all sat there and
Speaker 1: saying they whoever it is, added to the data and
Speaker 1: takes to the judge. And judge raised the verdict, and
Speaker 1: then he looked up and he said, now I'll have
Speaker 1: no outbursts from the crowd. Not tolerated any outburst or
Speaker 1: something like that. And then when they began reading the verdicts,
Speaker 1: gradually I let off on his hand, let off, squeezing
Speaker 1: on his hands. Not guilty, not guilty, not guilty, not
Speaker 1: guilty on whatever, twenty three accounts. Just eighteen days after
Speaker 1: the trial had begun, not only was Rena cleared of
Speaker 1: all charges, but all remaining lambs of God being held
Speaker 1: for the murder of Rule and all read were cleared
Speaker 1: of charges in relation to his murder too. Rena was free. Well,
Speaker 1: we hugged all the way around, and I don't know
Speaker 1: what the crowd reaction went. I don't I was too involved.
Speaker 1: Rena sent back to Sell to gather up her personal
Speaker 1: belongings and say goodbye to the friend she's made. She's
Speaker 1: then processed out to meet family members who are waiting outside.
Speaker 1: I remember walking out from this underground tunnel and there
Speaker 1: were cameras there. Chriss was waiting when I couldn't believe. Actually,
Speaker 1: I was just in the days. I think I was
Speaker 1: in a day most of the time. Like I just remember,
Speaker 1: I was in the car and I was looking up
Speaker 1: at the mountains, looking around at the lights, and here's
Speaker 1: the world. I've been walked up this along and there's
Speaker 1: a beautiful mountains. They're in folt Lang snow on on
Speaker 1: the top of them. It was it was fresh air.
Speaker 1: Rena is free to put her whole past behind her,
Speaker 1: or to go and write a book about it and
Speaker 1: tour the US cable news networks for the next decade.
Speaker 1: Either way, when it came to the colt, she was out,
Speaker 1: leaving behind her the stunned cops and prosecutors like Yoakum.
Speaker 1: I didn't cry or anything, but I was really disappointed
Speaker 1: all of the prosecution team. Where we're disappointed in the verdict.
Speaker 1: What would it take to get a conviction against hervil
Speaker 1: Le Baron? Was God really on his side protecting him? Well, No,
Speaker 1: I knew one thing that would make me pill less
Speaker 1: artist to apprehend and capture and try rble, which, of
Speaker 1: course we got that chance. That's coming up in the
Speaker 1: next episode of deliver Us from Hervill. Deliver Us from
Speaker 1: Herville is hosted by me jesse Hyde and written and
Speaker 1: reported by me Leona Hamad and David Waters. Production from
Speaker 1: Leona Hamid and David Waters. Sean Glenn and maxwe'brien are
Speaker 1: executive producers. Lena and Megan Oyinka are researchers. Marianna Gongora
Speaker 1: is our field producer, fact checking by Donya Suleman and
Speaker 1: Sona Avakian. Production management from Sharie Houston, Frankie Taylor and
Speaker 1: Charlotte Wolfe. Austin Mitchell is our creative director of production.
Speaker 1: Michae Lee Raw is our managing editor. Gavin Haynes is
Speaker 1: our head of development. Willard Foxton is our creative director
Speaker 1: of development. Sound design, mixing and scoring by Chris O'Shaughnessy,
Speaker 1: Music supervision by Nicholas Alexander and David Waters. Our music
Speaker 1: is composed by Julian Lynch. Special thanks to Scott Anderson,
Speaker 1: Scott Carrier, delvan Ada, Pippa Smith, Saskia Edwards, Matt O'Mara,
Speaker 1: Katrina Norvelle and beth An Makaluso, or In Rosenbaum, Shelby
Speaker 1: Shankman and all the team at UTA. For more from Novel,
Speaker 1: visit novel dot Audio eight