WEBVTT - 6: The Betrayal 0:00:04.680 --> 0:00:15.480 Novel. A listener note this episode contains violence and content 0:00:15.600 --> 0:00:24.000 that some listeners might find distressing. Previously, on deliver Us 0:00:24.040 --> 0:00:27.840 from Hervill, Hervil thought that if he got rid of Joel, 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:32.640 he could just move in and take leadership with Joel's people. Well, 0:00:32.680 --> 0:00:37.760 it didn't work. That's the problem. He told me about 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:40.520 a group of polygamous that were in town to kill someone. 0:00:40.720 --> 0:00:46.160 It's started with great on almost Morino on December nineteen 0:00:46.240 --> 0:00:48.279 seventy four, in the events that led up to that, 0:00:50.560 --> 0:00:53.760 So doing jump? Are you nervous? Martin? Normal? What? What 0:00:53.800 --> 0:00:59.160 are we doing here? Nothing's happening. I understand that they're 0:00:59.200 --> 0:01:02.240 affiliated with the Church of the Lamb of God. Is 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:06.520 that correct? I have been affiliated with what was called 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:09.920 the Church of the Lamba. I guess you wouldn't know 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:11.440 how they got back to get into the car in 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:14.480 the first place with him, and he just turned me 0:01:14.560 --> 0:01:19.920 and said, didn't marry or pay for this is your 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:23.880 last chance. They felt that they were putting somebody up 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:29.320 and Ma Sree, the Lord wants this done. Nan upstairs says, 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:32.160 we just got to keep rid of Brillin. It's just 0:01:33.400 --> 0:01:36.800 ruling the people and leave them the straight. We ended 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:40.320 up behind the doctor Joflson. The vehicles were waiting there. 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:44.279 The guys handed us outguns and gave us encouraging words 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:48.480 and send us all away. Every city police tonight say 0:01:48.520 --> 0:01:51.240 they have no lead. Jepps on who the two women 0:01:51.280 --> 0:01:53.840 were who entered the office of polegamous leader of ruling 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:56.600 all read yesterday and shot him dead? Where did you 0:01:56.680 --> 0:02:08.200 shoot him, Chessad, I can't time at all. How did 0:02:08.280 --> 0:02:11.520 you feel when you pulled the trigger? And she said glibly. 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:14.440 If you want to know that, you'll have to read 0:02:14.480 --> 0:02:20.560 the book. Honestly, it was like losing him all over again. 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:29.320 Close your eyes and imagine you're in a cave chained. 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:34.800 All you can see is a blank wall. There's a 0:02:34.800 --> 0:02:38.600 fire burning outside the cave, and from time to time 0:02:38.720 --> 0:02:41.280 you can see shadows passing in front of the fire, 0:02:42.040 --> 0:02:48.200 flickering shadows. You and the other people in the cave 0:02:48.320 --> 0:02:53.480 give names to these shadows. They form your perception of reality. 0:02:54.600 --> 0:03:02.040 They are your reality. Then one day suddenly you break free, 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:07.120 leave the cave, see the fire outside making its projections. 0:03:10.520 --> 0:03:14.280 But the fire hurts your eyes, and even if someone 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:17.519 were to tell you the fire is projecting the objects 0:03:17.520 --> 0:03:21.320 onto the cave wall, you wouldn't believe it, so you 0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:25.160 run back into the cave to the comfort of your reality. 0:03:28.120 --> 0:03:31.680 If you've ever taken a philosophy class, you probably know 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:36.960 the story. It's Plato's allegory of the cave, a fundamental 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:40.040 understanding that in some sense applies to all of us, 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:45.080 whether we are religious or not, the understanding that our 0:03:45.120 --> 0:03:51.040 reality is formed by our perceptions. As a journalist who 0:03:51.080 --> 0:03:54.880 often writes about faith, Plato's Cave comes to mind a lot, 0:03:55.880 --> 0:03:59.160 especially when I talk to people who have left fundamentalist religions, 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:02.880 be because they often grew up removed from the world 0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:06.560 at large, grew up in a religion that taught the 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:12.080 world outside is dangerous to be mistrusted. There was always 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:15.680 just a sense of fear, or always so much fear. 0:04:16.400 --> 0:04:20.240 This is one of those conversations with Gabriella, who was 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:24.400 raised in a fundamentalist Mormon cultum I was about five 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:27.359 years old, four or five years old, terrified of the 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:32.000 outside world. I'm playing this because Gabriella's previous feelings about 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:35.599 the world outside of her cult are indicative of many 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:40.440 people who leave fundamentalist religions. When she first saw the 0:04:40.520 --> 0:04:43.920 fire outside the cave, she didn't want to face it 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:49.520 like most people, she ran back inside the cave. I 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:54.800 was I wasn't going along with idol. Why not because 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:59.240 I honestly believed in it and the truth was to 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:03.320 pain full to face. And so I prayed and I 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:07.320 asked God to show me what to do. And I 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:11.800 remember I was like, look, God, I'm here, I don't 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:14.080 know what to do. You're not telling me what to do. 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:18.920 I'm ready. I was so ready. We never got answers. Okay, 0:05:18.960 --> 0:05:23.400 so this is a problem with us. In Plato's allegory, 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:27.919 that prisoner breaks free, then returns to the cave, but 0:05:28.000 --> 0:05:33.560 then someone, some mystery person, drags them back outside for 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:37.840 a second time. It takes a minute, but their eyes 0:05:38.000 --> 0:05:41.640 do eventually adjust to the light and they can begin 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:45.320 to see things as they are. I was really asking myself, 0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:47.960 if God is real, if what we were believing is real, 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:50.640 then why didn't all of these miracles that are supposed 0:05:50.640 --> 0:05:52.920 to happen. How come none of them ever happened. They 0:05:53.000 --> 0:05:57.520 realize the outside world is better than the cave. They've 0:05:57.640 --> 0:06:00.839 chained themselves to a wall from most of their life 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:05.719 in this tightly controlled space, when there was so much 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:10.680 more to see to experience that the reality in the 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:14.200 cave was a distortion. It was like, your idea of 0:06:14.279 --> 0:06:18.680 reality is clashing with actual reality. I was like, okay, 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:24.080 in that case, I don't know anything. I don't know anything. 0:06:32.760 --> 0:06:36.800 Of course, not all stories take the same course. Not 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:41.000 all fundamentalists have the same experience breaking free. But in 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:44.200 Plato's allegory, the person goes back to the cave a 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:47.760 third time, this time to try to convince people to 0:06:47.800 --> 0:06:52.080 come with them, to share in what they've seen, but 0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:57.159 nobody listens. In their minds, the person venturing outside the 0:06:57.200 --> 0:07:02.560 cave has been blinded by looking at the fire. They 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:07.040 are now a danger, and in Plato's allegory, the cave 0:07:07.160 --> 0:07:13.400 dwellers decided to kill them. If you're not religious, you 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:16.600 may think this all doesn't apply to you. But this 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:21.480 isn't just about former fundamentalists like Gabriella. Because most of 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:25.000 us are tribal in some way, and if we leave 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:30.040 that tribe, be it our family, community, even a political affiliation. 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:35.680 Maybe it's hardwired into us. We know it's risky. It 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:41.160 goes back to our earliest ancestors. You leave the tribe, 0:07:41.560 --> 0:07:44.880 you're dead. Maybe your old tribe sees you as a 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:50.640 threat and tries to eliminate you. You betrayed them, after all, 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:52.880 if I told you that your reality was a lie, 0:07:54.160 --> 0:08:01.400 you'd push back right. Please were closing in on Herville 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:04.440 and his followers, but so far the Church of the 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:07.680 Lamb of God had stayed one step ahead. As far 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:12.640 as tribes go, they seemed united, loyal, this mafia style 0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:16.480 clan with an unbreakable code. They knew the cost of 0:08:16.520 --> 0:08:21.720 speaking up, of leaving the tribe. It was death. But 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:25.920 light was starting to stream into the cave. A few 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:29.560 had ventured outside enough to wonder if the shadows they 0:08:29.560 --> 0:08:32.760 were seeing on the wall were real or the mad 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:37.800 ravings of a psychotic prophet. Herville must have known that 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:40.440 if any of them broke free long enough to see 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:46.040 the outside world, they would leave reject that tight, cloistered, 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:52.640 suffocating existence he'd created of stomach rumbling, poverty, and sadistic 0:08:52.760 --> 0:08:57.080 murder of their own kin. The whole thing would collapse. 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:02.240 But the thing about Plato's legory is to fulfill it, 0:09:02.480 --> 0:09:06.560 someone from Hervil's group needed to be the first to 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:13.400 break free, and they did, Like Judas when he gave 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:20.560 away Jesus with a kiss on the cheek from the 0:09:20.559 --> 0:09:24.880 Team's at novel and I Heart Radio. This is deliver 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:37.199 us from Herville. I'm Jesse Hyde chapter six. The betrayal 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:42.480 of all the murders carried out by Herville and his 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:47.360 followers in the years up to perhaps the hardest to 0:09:47.440 --> 0:09:51.560 stomach is the killing of his daughter, Rebecca. Maybe killing 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:55.240 his own brother Joel should have indicated nothing was off limits. 0:09:56.480 --> 0:09:59.920 Yet the killing of Rebecca LeBaron in April of nineteen 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:04.160 s who was three months pregnant at the time, show 0:10:04.360 --> 0:10:09.160 just how far his followers were willing to go. But 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:14.599 Rebecca's murder has another significance. Her death was the catalyst 0:10:14.720 --> 0:10:19.840 for an insider to betray Hervil. Rebecca LeBaron was the 0:10:19.920 --> 0:10:24.600 seventh child of Delfina Salito LeBaron, Irville's first wife. He 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:29.320 married her back in nineteen fifty. Rebecca's killing in April 0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:33.280 seventy seven was kind of an open secret in the colt, 0:10:34.440 --> 0:10:38.480 but no one told her mother, Delfina. That is until 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:41.800 June of seven, when a child in the colt let 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:51.080 it slip. The secret was out. Delfina flipped, initially just figuratively, 0:10:51.880 --> 0:10:56.040 raging against the members of the cult, but this instinctive 0:10:56.080 --> 0:11:01.319 reaction now put Delphina's life at risk, because the same 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:05.160 cult members who saw Rebecca as a loose cannon now 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:09.080 saw Delphina as a threat and someone who had to 0:11:09.120 --> 0:11:15.240 be silenced too. Delphina must have realized this because not 0:11:15.440 --> 0:11:19.040 long after her outburst of grief and rage, she tried 0:11:19.080 --> 0:11:23.439 to flee to Mexico to escape the colt. And while 0:11:23.520 --> 0:11:26.880 this was all happening, word of Delphina's flight from Rvil's 0:11:26.920 --> 0:11:31.920 colt had reached the cops. She called her sister in 0:11:31.960 --> 0:11:36.760 San Diego, and that sister called Dick Forbes. This is 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:41.400 Larive's Stubbs, whose family helped settle Colonial LeBaron back in 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:47.080 episode one. Ever since Mervil's followers had killed her prophet 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:50.760 Joel LeBaron, she and her husband had been leading the 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:55.760 resistance to Evil's colt. She dedicated every spare minute trying 0:11:55.840 --> 0:11:59.640 to track him down and bring him to justice. And so, 0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:03.640 now hearing Delfina was leaving the colt, it was Larive 0:12:03.800 --> 0:12:07.680 down in Colonial LeBaron that the detective Dick Forbes called 0:12:07.720 --> 0:12:11.720 to help bring Delfina in, hoping she could be persuaded 0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:18.960 by Larive to testify against the Colt Delfina, which was 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:22.720 herbl's wife. Dick Forbes told us that he needed to 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:25.600 take her to Salt Lake and what would it take. 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:30.760 But hearing all this, Larive's concern was for Delfina. She 0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:34.959 knew her life was now in danger from hervil's assassins. 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:37.679 They were already on the plane to go get rid 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:41.040 of her because they want her talking. They thought there's 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:43.920 a potential she would get killed before she could testifies it. 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:47.280 Of course, you think they weren't after her The minute 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:52.000 she left, Dick Forbes told Larive they needed to act fast. 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:56.040 Delfina was on a bus traveling through Texas en route 0:12:56.080 --> 0:12:58.960 to Mexico. The bus was going to be making a 0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:02.079 stop in the border city of El Paso. It's about 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:05.520 two hundred miles from Colonial a baron a four hour 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:09.080 drive on a good day. Could Larive get there before 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:12.200 Hervil's killers. And he says, she's going to be there 0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:15.760 at three o'clock in the morning. And I had to 0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:18.439 get up in my house down here, drive Dale Passo 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:21.320 and be in that bus stop at three o'clock. And 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:23.559 the law was on its way to that El Paso 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:29.480 bus stop too, So we're the ones that met her 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:32.559 in al Passo, and it was clear ful of FBI 0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:35.880 and CIA and whatever you get it. So they all 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:39.800 converged just in time, and we've interceded, picked her up, 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:43.439 had guys there from Salt Lake that night at three 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:47.360 o'clock in the morning. They flew in next morning. She says, well, 0:13:47.400 --> 0:13:50.080 I'll go if Luria will go with me. So there 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:53.160 I was stuck for three weeks, and I was pretty 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:55.760 upset because I had little kids and I needed to 0:13:55.760 --> 0:14:00.720 be home. But I went Larive put her life in 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:04.440 Mexico on hold and traveled up to Utah because for her, 0:14:05.040 --> 0:14:09.360 stopping herbal had become a single minded mission to stop 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:13.000 the killing. We did go after him with a law 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:22.120 and we worked with Mormon FBI, c I, a UM 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:25.680 and with everybody. Oh, I just wanted to know me 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:31.840 did it day and night, damn night. When the reef 0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:36.120 talks about Mormon law enforcement agencies, she's referring to Dick 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:40.600 Forbes and other officials. Not only were they from Mormon backgrounds, 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:43.200 but they had taken to heart the advice of journalist 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:47.040 Del van Ada. Remember it was Dale back in episode 0:14:47.080 --> 0:14:50.000 four who had told police to learn and respect the 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:54.160 intricacies of Mormon doctrine, and that had allowed police to 0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:57.320 build trust a little by little, trust at all those 0:14:57.320 --> 0:15:00.560 guys because I watched him, and I watched him in 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:03.960 law enforcement rely on you guys for information for everything, 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:08.920 because they had all the records on the barrens, you know, 0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:12.200 but they didn't know the difference of those who were 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:15.680 against Cervill and those who were for it. Tips and 0:15:15.680 --> 0:15:18.080 then you would let them know we didn't hear tips. 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:20.880 We helped him everything they needed, and we knew all 0:15:20.880 --> 0:15:25.040 the families. This was a big thing for Larive agreeing 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:29.280 to work with cops. Think about it from her position 0:15:30.720 --> 0:15:34.480 as one of those refugees in Mexico leaving the US 0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:36.800 as a team because the cops were rounding up and 0:15:36.960 --> 0:15:40.800 arresting Polygamus. She'd been told never to trust the U 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:44.640 S authorities. If it was me, even the risk of 0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:48.440 becoming a target of Herville would have made me think twice. 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:57.720 I wasn't terrified because I believed more in getting him 0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:01.280 behind bars that he can't keep killing. And everybody been 0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:05.880 worried about me and for the cops, Larive's intervention was 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:10.560 crucial because getting Delphina safely in custody was one thing, 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:14.200 but now they needed her to talk to them too, 0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:18.240 and Larive was able to help them do that. Why 0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:21.880 was Delphina such a key witness. She's his first wife 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:24.120 and all his kids are hers, and you had to 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:28.000 be careful even with her. You couldn't just push and shove. 0:16:28.120 --> 0:16:31.640 But she ended up telling everything. What Larive means by 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:36.520 everything here is well the killing of Joel, the killing 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:39.680 of Ruling all Read, the killing of Bob Simons, and 0:16:39.920 --> 0:16:44.800 invest and on and on the killing of Rebecca, her daughter. 0:16:45.680 --> 0:16:48.680 She was the first cult member to give them this 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:55.200 inside information that said Delfina hadn't actually witnessed any of 0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:59.560 these murderers firsthand. She just heard about them through the 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:04.679 family grapevine. For prosecutors to get convictions, the cops were 0:17:04.680 --> 0:17:08.440 going to need more. You see, nobody has all the information. 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:10.760 I don't know what you know about law work, but 0:17:11.600 --> 0:17:14.480 everybody has a little piece and that little piece and 0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:18.960 that little piece and that little piece. And this is 0:17:19.000 --> 0:17:23.400 where Delphina's son came in, a kid named Isaac. Isaac, 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:27.920 just fourteen years old in nineteen seventy seven, had actually 0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:32.159 been at the April twenty meeting that year the emergency 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:36.199 military meeting. The meeting when Herville ordered the killing of 0:17:36.280 --> 0:17:39.960 Roulin Alread and Rlin le Baron and told the colt 0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:47.240 how he wanted it done. Isaac was a witness. Delphina 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:49.720 told this to the cops, and she was also able 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:53.680 to tell them where Isaac was currently living. On July 0:17:54.640 --> 0:17:59.600 n seventy seven, the police swooped in for Isaac, descending 0:17:59.680 --> 0:18:03.640 on an unremarkable looking single story suburban home in Dallas. 0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:08.879 Here the cult had a safe house. Now in police custody, 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:13.600 At first, Isaac was terrified refused to say anything to 0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:17.520 the cops, but over time they gained his trust too, 0:18:18.520 --> 0:18:23.600 and two weeks later in August, he started to talk. 0:18:27.200 --> 0:18:30.160 It was really a key break in the case, and 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:33.240 basically at that point and we were on our way. 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:37.360 This is David Yoakum, the lead Utah prosecutor. He'd been 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:41.159 trying to bring Ruling Alread's killers to justice from the 0:18:41.280 --> 0:18:44.679 very beginning. I said, I attended the scene at the 0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:47.160 day of the killing. I had actually been out there 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:50.719 where they were wheeling run Alread out of his office 0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:54.040 on a gurney, and my good friend and detective on 0:18:54.080 --> 0:18:57.159 the case and informed me they had no idea at 0:18:57.200 --> 0:18:59.960 the time who was responsible or why I was killed. 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:03.640 When he first started on the case, Yoakum thought he'd 0:19:03.640 --> 0:19:06.359 found his key break in an evidence hall near the 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:09.840 crime scene, two men were looking through a large dumpster 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:13.320 outside of their store and found a grocery sack full 0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:16.919 of things that looked strange to them. It had included 0:19:17.080 --> 0:19:20.880 a gun box which had a serial number attached to it, 0:19:21.480 --> 0:19:24.720 and since the murder had just occurred down the street, 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:27.560 they turned over these things to the Murray Place department. 0:19:27.920 --> 0:19:30.840 Some of this evidence had sent the investigators in the 0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:33.920 All Red murder on a bit of a wild goose chase. 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:37.879 They traced the serial number on the box through the 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:41.919 FBI and found out the box had been purchased in Denver, Colorado. 0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:44.880 It had been purchased by a cult member who had 0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:48.240 no further involvement in the killing, and before the cops 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:51.880 had insider information from the colt, they thought the gun 0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:55.160 box link meant they had their shooter. Then they found 0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:59.320 out she had an airtight alibi, so they were right 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:03.439 back to squa are one and David Yoakum was starting 0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:07.200 to fill the heat because what he was learning about 0:20:07.240 --> 0:20:11.520 herville and his cult. From the investigation was telling him 0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:15.720 just how serious stopping this all was because of the 0:20:15.760 --> 0:20:18.840 power that he held over a group of individuals and 0:20:18.920 --> 0:20:23.320 the authority he claimed, and that he could actually command 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:27.320 people on his name to murder other people. I felt 0:20:27.359 --> 0:20:30.800 that it was so significant, and saying this was significant 0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:34.000 is saying something for Yoakum, who had seen some heavy 0:20:34.000 --> 0:20:37.320 ship in his career. In fact, just a few years 0:20:37.359 --> 0:20:40.480 before this case, he had been the first to successfully 0:20:40.520 --> 0:20:45.560 prosecute serial killer Ted Bundy. You know, Ted Bundy was 0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:50.200 responsible for a lot of murders, but it wasn't like 0:20:50.920 --> 0:20:53.240 he had a whole group of people that he commanded 0:20:53.280 --> 0:20:56.800 to kill. He was his sole killer, which is bad enough, 0:20:56.920 --> 0:21:00.320 But here Herville had the control over people that he 0:21:00.359 --> 0:21:03.440 could order them to kill members of his own group. 0:21:04.080 --> 0:21:07.800 He actually had his own daughter murdered, which is pretty 0:21:07.840 --> 0:21:12.200 damn scary. But a very evil person that was worse 0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:16.320 than I think a serial killer. So yeah, from August 0:21:16.359 --> 0:21:20.879 seventy seven onwards, when Isaac started giving cops and prosecutors 0:21:20.880 --> 0:21:24.720 witnessed demons from the secret meetings of the cult where 0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:29.520 killings were being ordered. Significant probably doesn't cover it. It 0:21:29.600 --> 0:21:34.720 was a huge break in the case. He started giving information. 0:21:35.440 --> 0:21:39.280 We call it the twentieth Conservation meeting or Herville conducted 0:21:39.280 --> 0:21:43.000 a medium as group and talked about selecting two women 0:21:43.640 --> 0:21:47.960 to come to Utah to kill a false prophet. This 0:21:48.080 --> 0:21:52.520 is an emergency military meeting April where the all Red 0:21:52.600 --> 0:21:56.680 and Virlin murder plans were announced. This young man had 0:21:56.680 --> 0:21:59.760 a very good memory of that and started giving us 0:21:59.840 --> 0:22:03.440 name teams of individuals that were present and who's who. 0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:06.840 This included a name for the killer of Dr Roulin Alrett. 0:22:08.240 --> 0:22:13.920 Rina Channath Yoakum felt they were ready to make arrests. 0:22:14.760 --> 0:22:33.600 That's coming up after the break. By the summer of 0:22:35.240 --> 0:22:38.840 fractures and fissures had begun to appear in Evil's once 0:22:39.040 --> 0:22:43.200 ultra tight knit church of the Lamb of God. Paranoia 0:22:43.320 --> 0:22:46.280 and fear or in some cases, ego had set in. 0:22:47.320 --> 0:22:50.800 Lloyd and Don Sullivan, for example, had seen their roles 0:22:50.920 --> 0:22:54.639 greatly diminished. Lloyd had once held a roll near the 0:22:54.680 --> 0:22:59.560 top of Hervil's mafia like clan. Hearing Rena Channath's testimony 0:22:59.640 --> 0:23:03.199 years later revealed how he was the instigator for that 0:23:03.320 --> 0:23:07.240 raid on Los Molinos, carried out the hit on Robert Simons, 0:23:07.720 --> 0:23:11.720 and had been an advocate for Rebecca's murder too, Yet 0:23:11.760 --> 0:23:15.520 a series of botched hits meant he had now lost favor. 0:23:18.000 --> 0:23:22.919 The disillusionment went both ways. After the ruling ordered killing 0:23:23.040 --> 0:23:27.560 in May seven, Herville fled south of the border. He 0:23:27.640 --> 0:23:30.040 had left Lloyd in the US to clean up the mess. 0:23:30.880 --> 0:23:33.800 This had effectively left Lloyd in charge of the Colts 0:23:33.840 --> 0:23:38.639 American operations. Lloyd started to spend more and more time 0:23:38.680 --> 0:23:43.160 with Rena, one of Evil's handpicked assassin's and at one 0:23:43.200 --> 0:23:49.560 time one of his favorite wives. We were getting familiar 0:23:49.600 --> 0:23:53.760 with each other. Tell me how wonderful it was playing 0:23:53.760 --> 0:23:55.879 on my motion, and he was telling me how wrong 0:23:56.000 --> 0:24:00.479 it was things had to turn out with durable, how 0:24:00.560 --> 0:24:04.159 much he how desirable I was, and how that it 0:24:04.280 --> 0:24:06.720 was that I was so unhappy with the woman it 0:24:06.720 --> 0:24:10.080 couldn't be right. This is Rena in that interview for 0:24:10.119 --> 0:24:14.159 her book with the writer Dean Shapiro years later. Here 0:24:14.560 --> 0:24:18.800 she's recalling how after Rulin Alred's murder, Lloyd Sullivan had 0:24:18.840 --> 0:24:23.920 suddenly started having his own revelations from God. Lloyd's decided 0:24:23.960 --> 0:24:26.199 he was a prophet that needed to write, and so 0:24:26.359 --> 0:24:29.640 he was writing, and I was typing for him. Just 0:24:29.680 --> 0:24:32.840 like for Herville. Rena was once again typing out the 0:24:32.880 --> 0:24:36.600 revelations of a self proclaimed prophet. But that wasn't the 0:24:36.680 --> 0:24:39.560 only role Lloyd had in mind for her. We were 0:24:39.640 --> 0:24:41.680 driving along in the truck and he had this revelation. 0:24:41.800 --> 0:24:45.399 But he said, oh my goodness, I just saw you 0:24:45.440 --> 0:24:50.680 and you were wearing this long, beautiful white dress. And 0:24:50.840 --> 0:24:53.800 he goes, of course, I'm waiting dress. That means you're 0:24:53.800 --> 0:25:02.200 supposed to marry me. This was all very confusing for Rena. 0:25:02.400 --> 0:25:05.359 Maybe God was in fact revealing to her that she 0:25:05.400 --> 0:25:09.200 should marry Lloyd, even though God had previously told her 0:25:09.280 --> 0:25:12.640 she should marry Herville. So she set off to Mexico, 0:25:13.000 --> 0:25:15.919 where Rvill was now hiding out, to tell Hervill she 0:25:16.040 --> 0:25:21.520 was through with him. Hervill's answer, absolutely not. He told 0:25:21.520 --> 0:25:26.080 me that Lloyd was worthless to me, and I was 0:25:26.119 --> 0:25:31.800 just cried on tears. Rena had hoped to break the 0:25:31.800 --> 0:25:34.000 news to Irville and be back in the US within 0:25:34.040 --> 0:25:38.600 a week, but now that she had revealed her true intentions, 0:25:39.280 --> 0:25:42.359 there was no way Irvill was letting her out of 0:25:42.440 --> 0:25:48.400 his sight. She was his prisoner, now locked away typing 0:25:48.440 --> 0:25:55.320 out more insane pamphlets, more unhinged and violent revelations. Their 0:25:55.400 --> 0:25:58.879 life ever since the Los Milino's raid had been nomadic 0:25:59.520 --> 0:26:03.639 to stay head of enemies real and imagined chasing them. 0:26:03.680 --> 0:26:12.520 And it continued traveling, Hi du running, driving, you know, 0:26:13.480 --> 0:26:19.040 stuck down there, next call in Healing Lenny, same old ship. 0:26:21.800 --> 0:26:25.720 But for Lloyd Sullivan back in the US, Rena's absence 0:26:25.760 --> 0:26:29.240 had done nothing to halt his split from Hervil. He'd 0:26:29.280 --> 0:26:33.920 already tried to steal Irvil's wife. He'd already called himself 0:26:34.080 --> 0:26:39.399 the real prophet. Now it was time to go all 0:26:39.520 --> 0:26:44.920 the way. In August of ninety seven, he penned an 0:26:44.960 --> 0:26:47.320 open letter to the Church of the Lamb of God. 0:26:48.600 --> 0:26:51.639 Why wasn't Herville over here in the US fighting the 0:26:51.680 --> 0:26:55.440 good fight? He asked? Why was he hiding out in Mexico. 0:26:57.200 --> 0:27:01.520 Then he dropped a bomb. He called Merville a son 0:27:01.640 --> 0:27:06.040 of perdition, that sinner who could only be atoned by death. 0:27:07.440 --> 0:27:10.920 This was a call to war, and there were only 0:27:10.960 --> 0:27:14.639 two ways it could go. Either Ervill would take out Lloyd, 0:27:15.600 --> 0:27:17.560 or Lloyd would have to find a way of getting 0:27:17.600 --> 0:27:22.359 to Irville. In the meantime, prosecutors against Irville had continued 0:27:22.400 --> 0:27:27.280 to build their case and on September nineteen seventy seven, 0:27:27.760 --> 0:27:32.760 Yoakum's team filed charges for murder, attempted murder, and conspiracy 0:27:32.840 --> 0:27:38.000 to commit murder against all of Rville's inner circle. Roughly 0:27:38.040 --> 0:27:41.560 two weeks later, homes and businesses controlled by the cult 0:27:41.840 --> 0:27:44.920 were raided by one of the largest joint law enforcement 0:27:44.960 --> 0:27:49.720 operations in the history of the American West, a massive 0:27:49.800 --> 0:27:55.800 sting operation over one police officers from Utah, Texas, Colorado, 0:27:55.840 --> 0:27:59.840 and Oklahoma. They were assisted by agents from the FBI 0:28:00.240 --> 0:28:04.560 and the Secret Service. The raid wasn't a total success. 0:28:05.359 --> 0:28:09.040 Many of the colts, including Herville and Rena, remained at large, 0:28:10.440 --> 0:28:17.800 but they did manage to catch at least one big fish. 0:28:18.160 --> 0:28:22.720 This is an interviews conducted in the County Attorney's office 0:28:22.760 --> 0:28:26.520 in Salt Lake City present County Attorney Investigator Dick Forbes. 0:28:27.400 --> 0:28:31.560 Interview will be conducted by National CITYPD. The cops had 0:28:31.600 --> 0:28:34.840 caught Lloyd Sullivan. I'd like to start out the interview 0:28:34.880 --> 0:28:38.200 by getting just a little bit of background. I understand 0:28:38.240 --> 0:28:43.920 that you're affiliated with are were affiliated with the Church 0:28:44.080 --> 0:28:47.000 of the Lamb of God? Is that correct? I have 0:28:47.120 --> 0:28:50.160 been affiliated with what was called the Church of the Lama. 0:28:50.960 --> 0:28:53.760 What was your position in the church at that time, 0:28:53.760 --> 0:28:58.400 you're At that time, I was studying with herbal two 0:28:59.720 --> 0:29:05.840 to the Commandments of the Lord. He teaches very very well, 0:29:06.640 --> 0:29:08.920 better than any man I've ever heard, and I was 0:29:09.120 --> 0:29:13.400 learning under him under his tutorship. At this point, Lloyd 0:29:13.520 --> 0:29:17.080 was already looking for ways to eliminate hervil as arrival, 0:29:17.960 --> 0:29:21.160 and now he realized the police could help him do it. 0:29:22.320 --> 0:29:25.840