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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group, or if you've had

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Speaker 1: an experience with manipulation or abuse of power you'd like

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Speaker 1: to share, leave us a message on our hotline number

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Speaker 1: at five one three nine hundred two nine five five, or.

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Speaker 2: Shot us an email at trust Me pod at gmail

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Speaker 2: dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust Me, Trust trust Me. I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 3: I've never lied to you.

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Speaker 4: I never have a live If.

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Speaker 1: You think that one person has all the answers, don't.

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Speaker 5: Welcome to trust Me.

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Speaker 1: Twenty twenty two of the podcast about cults, extreme believe

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Speaker 1: and the abuse of power from two bias, the bitches

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Speaker 1: who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 5: I am Lola Blanc.

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Speaker 2: And I am Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 1: And today our first guests of the year are the

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Speaker 1: incredible Amanda Knox and Christopher Robinson. They are the writers

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Speaker 1: and hosts of the podcast Labyrinths. Yes it is that

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Speaker 1: Amanda Knox, the one who is wrongfully convicted for the

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Speaker 1: death of her roommate in Italy in two thousand and seven.

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Speaker 1: Amanda and Christopher are here to talk to us about

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Speaker 1: cognitive bias, a favorite topic that we share. They're going

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Speaker 1: to walk us through Amanda's convict and what went wrong

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Speaker 1: throughout the process and what it was like being in

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Speaker 1: an Italian prison for four years knowing that she was innocent.

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Speaker 2: We'll be discussing our favorite cognitive biases, all the biases

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Speaker 2: that come into play at Amanda's trial, and the public

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Speaker 2: perception of what happened, including why it's been so hard

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Speaker 2: to clear her reputation and why it's so important to

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Speaker 2: understand the mental shortcuts our brains take.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, So I'm so fucking excited about this episode

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Speaker 1: for so many reasons, aside from them being amazing and

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Speaker 1: her story being incredible.

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Speaker 2: I mean, one of the things that really stood out

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Speaker 2: to me was the fact that she said that people

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Speaker 2: all the time are like cat calling her that she's

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Speaker 2: still guilty.

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Speaker 1: I think I said this in the interview, but like

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Speaker 1: I've mentioned to people that we were going to be

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Speaker 1: interviewing her and they've been like the murderer, right, which

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Speaker 1: is just like, it's so shocking, and that's why getting

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Speaker 1: her story out there is important.

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Speaker 5: Watching the Netflix documentary about are so important.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, aside from just how incredible they are, both

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Speaker 1: of them.

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Speaker 5: This is my favorite topic.

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Speaker 1: This is one of my absolute favorite things to talk

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Speaker 1: about because I think it's so important and I will

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Speaker 1: get into wilater on, but y'all, I'm stoked.

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Speaker 5: I'm stoked, stoked, stoked.

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Speaker 1: Before we jump into it, Megan, Oh my god, it's

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Speaker 1: the holidays are done, we're here, it's a new year.

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Speaker 1: What on earth is the coldiest thing that's happened to

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Speaker 1: you since our last episode?

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Speaker 6: Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 2: I mean, right now, I'm super kind of zoned in

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Speaker 2: on Elizabeth Holmes being found guilty on four counts of

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Speaker 2: fraudulent activities. She really manipulated the cult of Silicon Valley

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Speaker 2: and she is going to jail.

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Speaker 1: That just happened, right, yeah, like an hour ago? Yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay, great.

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Speaker 1: How do we feel about that?

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's bittersweet, huh, because it would have been

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Speaker 2: so cool if what she was selling was real, but

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Speaker 2: it wasn't. So I guess it's kind of nice to

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Speaker 2: see somebody get just as what.

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Speaker 5: A fall from like she was so on top of

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Speaker 5: the world.

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Speaker 1: It seemed like she was the next fucking Elon Musk

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Speaker 1: and then straight to jail. You know, I wish some

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Speaker 1: of these cases were more clearcut for all of the

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Speaker 1: other kinds of uh corporate ways that people steal from us.

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Speaker 1: But unfortunately it takes having something that's like so literally

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Speaker 1: and obviously fraudulent in order for anyone to see consequences

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Speaker 1: from it.

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Speaker 5: But you know what, I'll take what I can get here.

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Speaker 6: Yeah. Same, And she's also pregnant, which is kind of

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Speaker 6: you know that sucks.

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Speaker 5: Oh I didn't know that really?

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Speaker 7: Yeah?

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Speaker 6: Oh god, she thought it would work for her.

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Speaker 1: And I can't wait for The Oranges the New Black

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Speaker 1: episode with the season.

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Speaker 5: With Yeah, exactly, what about you in terms of my life?

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Speaker 5: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: However, I was reading an interesting article. Okay, okay, so

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Speaker 1: we all know what the alt right is, right. We

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Speaker 1: all know about this extreme right wing sort of movement

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Speaker 1: that's been happening online in the past few years.

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Speaker 5: We all know that it's been happening.

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Speaker 1: On social media, definitely on you know, four chan, Reddit,

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Speaker 1: eight chan, whatever the fuck all those different versions of

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Speaker 1: that website are. What I didn't know is that while

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Speaker 1: this is happening in the States, this alt right movement,

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Speaker 1: this extreme often white supremacist movement, maybe always white supremacist,

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Speaker 1: I think there's some overlap with just general conspiracy theory stuff.

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Speaker 5: But there's a.

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Speaker 1: Similar movement happening with jihadists gen z like Young Jihattists,

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Speaker 1: which this Wired article I was reading calls Alt jihadists.

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Speaker 1: And what Alt jihadists are doing is appropriating the exact

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Speaker 1: same memes and like cultural touchstones as the Alt Right,

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Speaker 1: even though they are like exactly opposite in the thing

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Speaker 1: that they stand for, which is just fascinating to me.

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Speaker 1: So the Altright uses the little frog guy Pepe or

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Speaker 1: whatever they use wojag.

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Speaker 5: They use what is called Gigachad.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know that that was the name of that

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Speaker 1: like manly like giant chin guy that you know in.

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Speaker 5: Cells love, that's called Gigachad.

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Speaker 1: The Alt Jihatists are using the exact same memes and

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Speaker 1: characters and even some of the same language they're talking about,

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Speaker 1: like owning liberal Muslims.

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Speaker 5: It's absolutely fascinating to me.

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Speaker 6: Ooh, that's very very interesting. I had no idea.

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Speaker 1: It makes sense, it does, right, But extremism is extremism exactly.

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Speaker 1: Like there's this tendency to think, oh, it's just whiteness

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Speaker 1: or whatever, it's just that, but no, extremism happens everywhere,

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Speaker 1: and it happens in the same ways.

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Speaker 5: I just want to.

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Speaker 6: Know what do we do?

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Speaker 5: How do we stop it?

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Speaker 1: I know this is a really new and unique question

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Speaker 1: that I have, how to stop extremism, But I'm just

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Speaker 1: fascinated by it and the fact that it's happening on TikTok,

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Speaker 1: It's happening on all of the same websites in the

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Speaker 1: exact same ways. It makes me want to, as many things,

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Speaker 1: do quit my media career and go study and do

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Speaker 1: research and try to figure out like how this happens and.

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Speaker 5: How to stop it. But you know what, I'm not

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Speaker 5: going to do that, so for now, I'm just gonna

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Speaker 5: have this podcast.

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Speaker 2: You know what, I think the answer is just finding

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Speaker 2: the black and white noess within yourself of trying to

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Speaker 2: make things extreme and making things gray in your own life.

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Speaker 2: And you're a part of the bigger hologram and you're just,

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Speaker 2: you know, the smaller part of it.

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Speaker 6: So you do it to fix the rest.

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Speaker 5: I have no idea, I know it, you just said,

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Speaker 5: I have no fucking clue.

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Speaker 1: No, it's important to do that when within ourselves. That

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Speaker 1: work is really important. But there are people who are

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Speaker 1: not doing that work. They're not maybe even exposed to

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Speaker 1: the possibility of doing that work.

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Speaker 2: But I'm just saying, like, you know, the day somebody

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Speaker 2: broke the four minute mile, then like somebody else broke

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Speaker 2: it too, Like you beating a barrier in your own

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Speaker 2: mind helps break it in other people's minds.

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Speaker 5: Oh my god, are you saying we're all connected?

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Speaker 1: No?

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Speaker 6: I would never.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: It's gonna be something I'm gonna be following.

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Speaker 5: I find it really interesting.

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Speaker 1: I would love to find a former extremist to talk

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Speaker 1: to on the show, but I think that's that's a

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Speaker 1: pretty hard thing to do. So anyway, I'm just gonna

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Speaker 1: have to keep tabs on these articles and see what happens.

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Speaker 1: I feel like I had just said so much nothing?

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Speaker 1: Did I just say so much nothing?

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Speaker 2: No?

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Speaker 6: You said a lot. You keep tabs on the tabs.

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Speaker 5: Thanks.

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Speaker 1: I currently have about thirty tabs, so I'll test on

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Speaker 1: all of those tabs.

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Speaker 5: How do you close your tabs? I don't know. I

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Speaker 5: don't do it.

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Speaker 2: I think what we're trying to say is that Amanda

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Speaker 2: Knox is amazing and we can't wait for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to this interview.

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Speaker 1: I agree, So why don't we started already, let's do it.

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Speaker 1: Welcome Amanda Knox and Christopher Robinson to the show.

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Speaker 5: I'm so happy that you guys are here today. Hello, Hello, Hello, Hello.

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Speaker 1: So you both host a podcast called Labyrinths, which is incredible.

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Speaker 5: I've listened to a bit of it now.

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Speaker 1: Honestly, I'm a huge fan and maybe one of the

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Speaker 1: favorite podcasts of any of our guests we've had on.

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Speaker 5: Not to hate on anyone else, but it's so good.

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Speaker 1: It's super well produced and really interesting conversations with amazing

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Speaker 1: guests like Malcolm Gladwell and Cheryl Hines from kurb Your

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Speaker 1: Enthusiasm and Dave Navarro and Andrew Yang.

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Speaker 6: Great job. So you listen to the Malcolm one. I

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Speaker 6: love this, It's so good.

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Speaker 5: It's so good. I love I love that you challenged

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Speaker 5: him as well.

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Speaker 1: It's fun. So we are here today on this cult

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Speaker 1: podcast because both of you have talked quite a bit

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Speaker 1: about one of my personal favorite topics, which is cognitive

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Speaker 1: bias and how it influences our decision making and is

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Speaker 1: such an important thing to be discussing for everyone in general,

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Speaker 1: but I think in particular in this discussion around extreme

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Speaker 1: belief and manipulation, it is so important to be aware

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Speaker 1: of these subconscious processes that are happening all the time.

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Speaker 5: It's really the only way to protect ourselves.

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Speaker 1: And you, of all people, have experienced like the absolute

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Speaker 1: worst of the human potential for cognitive bias.

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Speaker 6: That's putting it lightly. Yeah, Yeah, I got it.

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Speaker 7: I got it pretty bad. Yeah, yeah, version of it.

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Speaker 4: Not everybody is at the center of their own personal

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Speaker 4: conspiracy theory, right, So to.

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Speaker 1: Start us off here, there are people in this world

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Speaker 1: who probably do not know what actually happened with your story.

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Speaker 1: They've maybe heard your name, they've associated it with some

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Speaker 1: kind of and they do not know that you are

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Speaker 1: in fact innocent and were wrongfully in prisoned. So can

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Speaker 1: you just kind of give us an overview of what

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Speaker 1: happened to you?

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Speaker 8: Yeah, if I had to do a really quick version

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Speaker 8: of it. Back in two thousand and seven, I was

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Speaker 8: twenty years old and studying abroad in Perusia, Italy. I

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Speaker 8: was living in a house with three other girls, two

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Speaker 8: of them were Italian and one of them was British.

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Speaker 8: And on the night of November one, two thousand and seven,

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Speaker 8: a local burglar broke into our home and raped and

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Speaker 8: murdered one of my roommates, the British one named Meredith Kircher,

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Speaker 8: and it just so happened that me and the two

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Speaker 8: Italian roommates weren't there that night.

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Speaker 7: I was with my new boyfriend.

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Speaker 8: As of five days, I think Lauda was in Rome

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Speaker 8: and Philomena was also with her boyfriend that night. So

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Speaker 8: what should have been a pretty cut and dry case

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Speaker 8: of a guy who had a rap sheet all this

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Speaker 8: physical evidence against him, It should have been a very

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Speaker 8: simple case, but it was not, because before there was

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Speaker 8: any sort of forensic evidence to identify the killer, they

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Speaker 8: decided to arrest.

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Speaker 7: A suspect, and that suspect was me.

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Speaker 8: I was the roommate who first came home and discovered

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Speaker 8: that there was a crime scene in my house. I

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Speaker 8: was the roommate that called the police. They sort of

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Speaker 8: honed in on me as someone who was not reacting

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Speaker 8: the way that they expected someone like a roommate to

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Speaker 8: react to the news of their roommate being murdered. I guess,

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Speaker 8: long story short, the forensic evidence came in indicating a

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Speaker 8: completely other person, not me, and not my boyfriend who

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Speaker 8: was my alibi, and not my boss who I was

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Speaker 8: supposed to work that night, and I ended up not

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Speaker 8: working that night.

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Speaker 7: But in fact this local burglar named Rudi Gaudet.

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Speaker 8: But instead of the police acknowledging that they had arrested

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Speaker 8: the wrong people at the very beginning, they instead pursued

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Speaker 8: a case against me as someone who had orchestrated a

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Speaker 8: like a satanic second game in which I like manipulated

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Speaker 8: these two men to rape and murder my roommate for me,

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Speaker 8: and I was put on trial for this. I was

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Speaker 8: convicted of this, I was acquitted of this, and then

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Speaker 8: I was my acquittal was overturned and I was reconvicted

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Speaker 8: of this, and then eventually the Italian Supreme Court definitively

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Speaker 8: acquitted me as innocent. They have like reasonable doubt and innocence.

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Speaker 8: They found me innocent. But it took eight years for

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Speaker 8: all of that to wrap itself up. Obviously, I you know,

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Speaker 8: there's so much to that story that I didn't get

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Speaker 8: into in that yeah thing, But yes, like it's a

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Speaker 8: crazy story, dude.

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Speaker 1: Can I just say, like, first of all, I am

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Speaker 1: so sorry that that happened to you. Like it's just

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Speaker 1: so I can't even fathom the trauma and the fear

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Speaker 1: and getting reconvicted going to a foreign prison for something.

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Speaker 6: How long were you in prison for it.

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Speaker 7: I was in prison for four years.

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Speaker 1: Whoa insane So you were essentially coerced in this very long,

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Speaker 1: arduous internation into having false memories. Can you describe some

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Speaker 1: of those coercive interrogation techniques.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, absolutely so.

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Speaker 8: There were a number of things that made me very,

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Speaker 8: very vulnerable in that interrogation room. One was that I

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Speaker 8: was being interrogated at length the moment the crime scene

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Speaker 8: was discovered. I was being interrogated for hours and hours

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Speaker 8: every day, not knowing that I was even being interrogated.

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Speaker 8: I was lied to and informed that I was a

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Speaker 8: very important witness, but I was absolutely not a suspect,

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Speaker 8: and that I needed to keep going back to the

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Speaker 8: police office to help them figure out who was the murderer,

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Speaker 8: because they kept saying, you know, you're a Meredith's friend,

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Speaker 8: You're a Meredith's roommate, You're the one who discovered the

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Speaker 8: crime scene. You're very, very important to our investigation. We

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Speaker 8: really need you to come in and like look through

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Speaker 8: all these photos and come back to the crime scene

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Speaker 8: and look through the knives and see if there's any missing.

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Speaker 8: And I was isolated from the other people that were

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Speaker 8: a part of my social group. The final interrogation was

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Speaker 8: through the night, so I was called in at like

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Speaker 8: eleven pm and I wasn't even called in raphael A.

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Speaker 8: My boyfriend was called in, but because I didn't want

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Speaker 8: to be home alone, my roommate had just been murdered

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Speaker 8: when she was home alone. So I followed him to

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Speaker 8: the police office and was just waiting there doing my

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Speaker 8: homework when they brought me in and started interrogating me.

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Speaker 8: I was denied food, I was denied water, I was

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Speaker 8: denied an attorney. I was speaking in a language and they.

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Speaker 2: Were speaking in Italian, right, and how long had you

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Speaker 2: been in Italy.

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Speaker 7: At this point, like five or six weeks?

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Speaker 8: Whoa, okay, yeah, so I was very newly arrived in Perusia.

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Speaker 3: Spoke Italian like a ten year old.

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Speaker 8: Yeah right, yeah, and of course, like with a very

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Speaker 8: specific vocabulary because I was not used to talking about

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Speaker 8: crime scenes and prosecutor.

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Speaker 5: Like where is the bathroom?

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Speaker 8: Yeah yeah, exactly like I love Mozzarella.

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Speaker 7: Not super useful in that situation.

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Speaker 8: There were a number of ways that I was more vulnerable.

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Speaker 7: I was also quite young.

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Speaker 8: The thing that really fucked with me was when they

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Speaker 8: lied to me and they told me that my alibi, Raphaele,

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Speaker 8: said that I no longer had been with him that night.

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Speaker 8: So they lied to me and said, what you're remembering

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Speaker 8: is not true. You think you stayed the night with

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Speaker 8: your boyfriend, but he says you didn't, so you need

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Speaker 8: to start remembering something else. And it was at that

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Speaker 8: point that I thought, oh my god, maybe I am traumatized.

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Speaker 8: Maybe I did witness something and I don't remember it,

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Speaker 8: because that's what they were saying to me. There was

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Speaker 8: at a certain point they brought in an interpreter who

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Speaker 8: worked for the police, and she explained to me that

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Speaker 8: she once got into a car accident and it was

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Speaker 8: such a bad car accident that she had no memory

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Speaker 8: of actually being in the accident. She had a memory

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Speaker 8: of just driving and then waking up in the hospital.

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Speaker 8: And she said, that's what happened to you. You just

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Speaker 8: don't remember having witnessed the murder because it was so traumatizing.

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Speaker 6: Oh my god.

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Speaker 8: Eventually, over the course of many hours, they got me

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Speaker 8: to sign statements to that effect that I was confusedly

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Speaker 8: trying to remember a murder that I couldn't remember, and

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Speaker 8: they wrote that down, had me sign it.

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Speaker 7: They went and arrested my boss.

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Speaker 8: They connected him to this because I had a cell phone,

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Speaker 8: like I had texted him the night of the murder

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Speaker 8: because I was supposed to work that night, and then

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Speaker 8: he told me I didn't have to. So they were like, okay,

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Speaker 8: so you probably connected with him. He probably did it.

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Speaker 8: You don't remember because it's so traumatizing. Sign these statements

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Speaker 8: and like they literally made me feel like I was insane.

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Speaker 7: They were telling they were lying to me.

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Speaker 8: They were telling me that my memories were not real,

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Speaker 8: that I had to try to remember other memories, and

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Speaker 8: so I was forcing myself to do and.

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Speaker 3: I rejected the truth from you countless times.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, they kept out like every time I told them, no,

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Speaker 8: this is what I remember, this is what I remember,

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Speaker 8: they said, no, you're wrong, you don't remember that.

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Speaker 7: You don't remember that.

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Speaker 1: And they're like slapping your head and you're like sleep deprived. Right,

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Speaker 1: there are so many things coming at you at once

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Speaker 1: while you're alone and scared in the situation. Oh yeah, yeah, God,

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Speaker 1: coercive interrogations made me so mad.

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Speaker 2: Has anybody ever apologized to you?

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Speaker 4: No, she still gets blamed for what happened when interrogation

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Speaker 4: room routinely all over the internet.

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Speaker 3: Now someone's blaming.

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Speaker 8: Her, and I remain wrongfully convicted of that. I was

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Speaker 8: never actually acquitted of. Ultimately, what they said was I

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Speaker 8: wrongfully accused an innocent man, my boss, and so I

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Speaker 8: was convicted of defamation for that.

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Speaker 4: Entiren said three of her four years of imprisonment were

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Speaker 4: rightfully served.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, that de charge. Really I have a

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Speaker 1: quick tangent here. So you guys know my mom. You've

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Speaker 1: spoken to my mom. She has a story that she

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Speaker 1: doesn't like to tell because it's like it's like too

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Speaker 1: much trauma information for people to be able to grasp

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Speaker 1: that this many things could happen to the same person.

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Speaker 1: It like confuses people and they're now conspiracy theories because

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Speaker 1: of her connections to multiple things cults as a victim,

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Speaker 1: to be clear, But there was an incident that happened

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Speaker 1: when I was with her in New York where she

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Speaker 1: was raped by this man who was like essentially a

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Speaker 1: white supremacist leader. And she went to the police and

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Speaker 1: the same woman who such, I like need to do

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Speaker 1: a documentary on this, But the same woman who convicted

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Speaker 1: the Central Park five, who are in the fair scene

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Speaker 1: yet who are obviously who were innocent? Co werced my

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Speaker 1: mom into saying that she was lying about the rape

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Speaker 1: four hours, telling her like she would lose her kids

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Speaker 1: if she didn't tell the truth. Absolutely insane, and again

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Speaker 1: like she's like already talking about this other cult situation,

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Speaker 1: this other she's like scared that people won't be able

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Speaker 1: to comprehend her that could happen, Yeah, but it did,

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Speaker 1: it did, And I remember her coming back and like

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Speaker 1: around that time, and she was just like there was

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Speaker 1: something like so on edge and wrong and depressive about

383
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Speaker 1: her and I didn't know what was happening, and it

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Speaker 1: was that yeah, And so that's just like stuck with

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Speaker 1: me my whole life.

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Speaker 5: Like, people do not grasp the extent.

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Speaker 1: To which we are all influenceable in a situation like

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Speaker 1: that where we're vulnerable and alone and there's no one

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Speaker 1: there to advocate for us, or no one there to

390
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Speaker 1: advocate for us who actually gives a shit.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, I think a really important point here is that

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Speaker 8: your mom had just been raped, and in my situation,

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Speaker 8: like my roommate had just been murdered, right, so already

394
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Speaker 8: we're sort of like vulnerable and unstable, and the authority

395
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Speaker 8: figure that we then go to for help right then

396
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Speaker 8: tells us you're crazy, you're wrong.

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Speaker 5: And oh my god.

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Speaker 1: I have friends who've gone to the police for their

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Speaker 1: rapes and we're also just like totally gas lit and

400
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Speaker 1: too thinking that they had done something. Like the way

401
00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:38,919
Speaker 1: that the police handle basically anything at this point, but

402
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Speaker 1: especially when it comes to women, I think is just

403
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Speaker 1: largely monstrous, and it's not just in America obviously, although

404
00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:47,080
Speaker 1: you know certainly happens quite a bit here.

405
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Speaker 5: Can you just quickly tell us.

406
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Speaker 1: What was prison like, Like, how was that experience.

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Speaker 7: So prison in Italy?

408
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Speaker 8: Obviously I was in a female prison, which means that

409
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Speaker 8: it's less sort of carved up into here the long timers,

410
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Speaker 8: and here are the people who are just in and out,

411
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Speaker 8: and they usually in bigger prisons will try to like

412
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Speaker 8: keep people who are don't have definitive sentences to one

413
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Speaker 8: side and people who have definitive sentences to another, just

414
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Speaker 8: because you're in a very different mindset if you're facing

415
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Speaker 8: a long sentence versus like you're in and out. In

416
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Speaker 8: my prison, there just wasn't enough people for that, so

417
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Speaker 8: everyone was all mixed together, and there was people who

418
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Speaker 8: were gravely mentally ill, to people who were dealing with

419
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Speaker 8: substance abuse problems, to people who were simply just poor.

420
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Speaker 8: Almost all the Nigerian women that I met in the

421
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Speaker 8: prison were drug mules. They were just given a bag

422
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Speaker 8: by someone and told you, if you cross the border

423
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Speaker 8: with this bag, we'll give you money and you can send.

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Speaker 7: It back to your family kind of thing.

425
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Speaker 8: The vast majority of the people that I was there

426
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Speaker 8: with were not Italian. They were foreigners, so they were

427
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,720
Speaker 8: Nigerian women or Roma or there were a few like

428
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:01,840
Speaker 8: Eastern European prostitutes situation kind of thing. And then there

429
00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:05,120
Speaker 8: was of the Italians. The vast majority of them were

430
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Speaker 8: in for drug charges related to like mafia kind of stuff.

431
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Speaker 8: The vast majority of them were guilty. The vast majority

432
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Speaker 8: of them were victims of crimes before they ever committed

433
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Speaker 8: a crime themselves.

434
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Speaker 7: A lot of them.

435
00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:27,520
Speaker 8: Were shockingly illiterate, even the Italians. It was stunning to me.

436
00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:32,400
Speaker 8: We're talking, you know, the lowest rungs of society, like deeply,

437
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Speaker 8: deeply neglected and abused and poor.

438
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Speaker 3: Can't read an analog clock.

439
00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:44,720
Speaker 7: Can't read an analog clock kind of thing. I don't know, yeah, yeah.

440
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,240
Speaker 8: So that was It was very, very, just like culturally

441
00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:51,480
Speaker 8: shocking to me. I was also just physically in a

442
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Speaker 8: very different space than a lot of people, Like I

443
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Speaker 8: had all of my teeth, a lot of people.

444
00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:58,120
Speaker 7: There had all of their teeth. Stuff.

445
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:02,000
Speaker 8: It was bad, and it was the first two years

446
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,919
Speaker 8: of my imprisonment. I definitely felt like I was the

447
00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:09,719
Speaker 8: odd one out and I didn't really feel like I belonged.

448
00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:13,159
Speaker 8: I felt like I was just sort of weirdly Alice

449
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:16,520
Speaker 8: in Wonderland. This is a crazy world where the rules

450
00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:18,680
Speaker 8: aren't the same, and I'm just sort of trying to

451
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:21,520
Speaker 8: figure out how to go home, right. And then after

452
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:24,760
Speaker 8: I was convicted the first time and I was facing

453
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:28,080
Speaker 8: a twenty six and a half year sentence, then I

454
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:32,080
Speaker 8: had a very sort of shocking reevaluation of who these

455
00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:34,080
Speaker 8: people were to me and what this place was to me,

456
00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:38,560
Speaker 8: because I now realized, oh, my life is in here,

457
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:40,720
Speaker 8: and this is my world and this is my community.

458
00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,639
Speaker 8: And I really had to rethink it doesn't matter that

459
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,720
Speaker 8: I don't belong here. I'm here, now, how do I

460
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:50,280
Speaker 8: make the most of my life in this space? And

461
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,879
Speaker 8: so I developed a routine and I developed a hustle,

462
00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:57,160
Speaker 8: and by hustle, I mean you find what you can do.

463
00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,280
Speaker 8: So in my case, I could read and write and

464
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:02,320
Speaker 8: a lot of people couldn't. So I would read and

465
00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:05,000
Speaker 8: write people's letters for them and do their core documents

466
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:06,080
Speaker 8: for them and stuff like that.

467
00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:09,440
Speaker 4: After teaching herself Italian through Harry Potter books.

468
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, wow, yeah amazing.

469
00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:12,640
Speaker 7: Yeah.

470
00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:18,119
Speaker 8: So I don't recommend it.

471
00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:18,719
Speaker 7: Going to prison.

472
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:21,080
Speaker 8: You can avoid it, but yeah, no, it's some I

473
00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:24,080
Speaker 8: think the biggest takeaway for me, just like on an

474
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,959
Speaker 8: emotional truth level, was that my world was very sad.

475
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:30,080
Speaker 7: My life was very sad.

476
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,679
Speaker 8: I woke up sad, I was sad all day, I

477
00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:35,880
Speaker 8: went to bed sad and that was a good day.

478
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:41,200
Speaker 8: And I got used to that. Like it was so interesting.

479
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:47,240
Speaker 8: Just my emotional default setting just went from like, oh, Chipper,

480
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:50,680
Speaker 8: life is good to I'm gonna.

481
00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:51,800
Speaker 7: Try to make today worth living.

482
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:52,400
Speaker 1: Wow.

483
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,000
Speaker 7: And that's just how I feel every day.

484
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:56,000
Speaker 5: Oh my god.

485
00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:57,919
Speaker 1: I just feel bad for anyone in prison, and I

486
00:22:58,040 --> 00:22:59,800
Speaker 1: just like want to help people somehow.

487
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:00,920
Speaker 5: I don't know how.

488
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:02,160
Speaker 3: It's a pretty horrible place.

489
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:07,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, sounds like it and not designed to fix people.

490
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:08,560
Speaker 5: Right, Oh, absolutely not.

491
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:10,240
Speaker 3: It just adds further trauma.

492
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,679
Speaker 1: Right, there should be so much more money allocated to

493
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,359
Speaker 1: like actual programs that are constructive to help people learn

494
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,080
Speaker 1: skills and become better and develop hobbies at.

495
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 7: A layer trauma And exactly, exactly.

496
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:24,920
Speaker 4: It's one of the most offensive things that you ever

497
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,360
Speaker 4: told me, was that one of the lawyers I think

498
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,760
Speaker 4: for the was it the Kultuer family lawyer, Yes, said

499
00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:35,440
Speaker 4: of Amanda and her stellar prison record, never got into

500
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:37,240
Speaker 4: a fight, never had an infraction.

501
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 3: Oh, prison's been good for her.

502
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 1: Oh my god, oh boy, yeah, well boy, what a

503
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 1: luxury cruise?

504
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:49,159
Speaker 2: Oh right, just using evidence to prove different evidence.

505
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,720
Speaker 6: It's so annoying. Yeah, that's so maddening.

506
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:54,480
Speaker 5: All right, you're convicted.

507
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 1: I assume that was a pretty hopeless time conviction gets overturned.

508
00:23:58,440 --> 00:23:59,480
Speaker 6: How did that process?

509
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 7: Sure?

510
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:05,600
Speaker 8: So, what initially was a major factor in my first

511
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:10,679
Speaker 8: conviction was two pieces of evidence. One was a kitchen

512
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:15,879
Speaker 8: knife that the police took from my boyfriend's house, Raphaele's house,

513
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:20,879
Speaker 8: and a bra clasp that was cut off of Meredith's

514
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,639
Speaker 8: bra that was found in her bedroom where she was murdered.

515
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 8: The kitchen knife was the police claimed that it had

516
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,639
Speaker 8: Meredith's DNA on the blade, They said that her blood

517
00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:33,879
Speaker 8: was on the blade and that my DNA was on

518
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 8: the handle. Therefore I was the one who stabbed Meredith

519
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:43,200
Speaker 8: to death. And the bra clasp had supposedly Rafaele's DNA

520
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,679
Speaker 8: on it, and so they said, Okay, this definitively proves

521
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:47,359
Speaker 8: that Rafaelee was at the crime scene.

522
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:48,480
Speaker 7: Therefore they are guilty.

523
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:53,360
Speaker 8: Well, these were hotly, hotly contested pieces of evidence because

524
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 8: our defense experts said, that's not what the DNA or

525
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 8: that's not what the analysis says at all. In fact,

526
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 8: it doesn't say that at all, And the original judge

527
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 8: decided that he was just going to believe the prosecution's

528
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 8: experts over our experts.

529
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 4: People arguing about the DNA thing. It's almost a side

530
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,640
Speaker 4: show like it became about the DNA. But both those

531
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 4: pieces of evidence were just patently absurd from the very beginning.

532
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 4: The kitchen knife was pulled at random on a police

533
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 4: hunch from a drawer in Rafaela's house across town.

534
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 7: It was the only knife that was ever analyzed.

535
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,359
Speaker 4: It didn't match the wounds, and what they expected the

536
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 4: jury to believe, and what the jury did believe, apparently,

537
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 4: is that Amanda brought this knife from Rafaela's house, went

538
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,120
Speaker 4: over to her own house, not planning to do a murder,

539
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,879
Speaker 4: then spontaneously did a murder with the knife she happened

540
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,200
Speaker 4: to have in her band, then brought the knife back

541
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 4: to Rafaela's house, cleaned it all up. Yeah, put it

542
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:51,399
Speaker 4: back in the kitchen drawer, and that was the murder weapon.

543
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 4: But because it didn't match the wounds, then they had deposit. Oh,

544
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:56,399
Speaker 4: there was also a second knife that's missed, that was

545
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 4: never found, that was never found, that actually inflicted these wounds.

546
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 4: Because this I can have done it right, So absurd story.

547
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 4: The DNA aside, right. The broad clasp was found forty

548
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:10,360
Speaker 4: four days after the crime scene had been processed by

549
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 4: the forensic police, and tons of different police without booties,

550
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 4: not wearing gloves, had trampled things and gone in and

551
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 4: out of different.

552
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 8: Rooms, and it was the only only only piece of

553
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 8: physical evidence that connected either rough La or and I

554
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,400
Speaker 8: to the actual scene where Meredith was.

555
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,920
Speaker 4: In a room that was a gruesome scene, where Rudy

556
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,199
Speaker 4: Gaudet's fingerprints and footprints were in Meredith's blood, where his

557
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 4: DNA was in her body, where there was a semen

558
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,360
Speaker 4: stain on a pillow that the police didn't test because

559
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 4: Amanda doesn't produce semens.

560
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,199
Speaker 3: So if you're going after Amanda, why test it. Wow.

561
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 7: Wow.

562
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I did not know prior to looking things up

563
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 1: before this interview that he was actually tried and convicted

564
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:56,360
Speaker 1: before your trial even happened.

565
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 8: Yeah, he had very clever defense attorneys. They understood that

566
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 8: the evidence against him was overwhelming compared to the evidence

567
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 8: against Raphaela and me. Just from the beginning, it was

568
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 8: very very clear that Rudy.

569
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:10,679
Speaker 7: Gadet did this.

570
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 8: He had wounds on his hands from having been in

571
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,920
Speaker 8: a knife fight. His fingerprints and footprints were all over

572
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,159
Speaker 8: the crime scene, in Meredith's blood, His DNA was on

573
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,640
Speaker 8: her body, his DNA was in her purse. He fled

574
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 8: the country like immediately after the crime happened. So he

575
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:32,040
Speaker 8: did it, and his defense attorneys understood that if he

576
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 8: was taken to trial alongside me and Raphaela in the

577
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 8: same trial, very clearly, Rudy Gadet would have been found

578
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 8: guilty and we would have been found innocent, and Rudy

579
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:45,680
Speaker 8: Gadet would have been therefore found guilty for the entirety

580
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:50,400
Speaker 8: of the crime. But what the prosecution was positing was

581
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 8: that me and raphael A were participant in this crime,

582
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 8: and in fact, Rudy Gaday didn't even inflict the killing wound.

583
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 8: So they thought, okay, if we can separate our trial

584
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 8: from Amanda and Raphaels and get it done sooner, Rudy

585
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 8: Gadet is going to be convicted of a lesser crime.

586
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 8: And lo and behold, that's what happened. He was convicted

587
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 8: of a lesser crime. He was never found fully responsible

588
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 8: for Merediths murder because he was tried and convicted long

589
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 8: before I was ever tried and convicted.

590
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 4: And long before any of that evidence was brought into

591
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 4: question or the DNA experts finally ruled that the DNA

592
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 4: on the knife in the broad class was a result

593
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 4: of contamination. It wasn't even blood on the knife, it

594
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 4: was what potato starts or something. And there were two

595
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 4: other male DNA profiles on the broad clasp aside from Raphaelas.

596
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 4: But again it's like one of the things Mark Olshacker,

597
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 4: who works with John Douglas criminal profiler, said is that

598
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 4: if Amanda and raphael had been able to participate in

599
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 4: that bloody scene and somehow clean up all traces of

600
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 4: their DNA while leaving all of Rudy's exacts. They deserve

601
00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 4: the Nobel Prize in chemistry, right, Right, that's possible.

602
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 6: Right, is Rudy he's out of jail already?

603
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:03,479
Speaker 7: Correct?

604
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 8: Yeah, he was originally sentenced to thirty years, It was

605
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 8: reduced to sixteen on appeal, and then after thirteen years

606
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,959
Speaker 8: they released him on work release and very recently just

607
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 8: reduced the rest of his sentence to time served.

608
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 6: Wow.

609
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 8: Meanwhile he's outgoing and giving interviews saying that I did it.

610
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 7: Yeah, he's he's not a good guest.

611
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 6: Over what a piece of work.

612
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 1: We can get into that in a minute, But just

613
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 1: the mental gymnastics that it takes to add two additional

614
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 1: people to this crime scene when there's so much clear

615
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: evidence pointing to one individual, it is just truly incredible,

616
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 1: Like the amount of things that had to get twisted

617
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 1: just to make their initial theory work. I just think,

618
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 1: how often is this happening and we don't know, like

619
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 1: how many people is this happening to?

620
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 5: Probably so many?

621
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 8: Well, that brings us into that bias conversation, because the

622
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 8: first thing that I think of when you say that

623
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 8: is conservativism bias. They formed an opinion about what the

624
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:06,320
Speaker 8: truth was. Then when evidence came back saying no, actually

625
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 8: it's this other guy. They then tried to sort of

626
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 8: mash that all of that together so that they didn't

627
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 8: have to be wrong.

628
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, nobody likes to be wrong, right.

629
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 8: They weren't willing to like reevaluate their theory based upon

630
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 8: new evidence.

631
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 2: No, they doubled down it right instead. Yeah, they're like, no,

632
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 2: that doubly proves that it's you.

633
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 3: It's yeah, yeah, have some cost fallacy a little too, Yeah,

634
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 3: Oh totally.

635
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 4: They put not only their reputation, but all their time

636
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 4: and effort has gone into building this case. People don't

637
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 4: like to leave bad movies in the middle because they've

638
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 4: already watched. Now, you know, it's like, we.

639
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 5: Are all guilty of this constantly.

640
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 6: It's like an unconscious shorthand.

641
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 3: Yeah.

642
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:45,719
Speaker 2: If we didn't usually would never be able to make

643
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 2: any decisions.

644
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly.

645
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: So for people who don't know what cognitivice is, let's

646
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 1: just like give a quick little overview here. So every

647
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 1: single day, we as human beings make an average of

648
00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 1: thirty five thousand decisions.

649
00:30:58,720 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 3: That's a great statistic.

650
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 1: I found it on this amazing website, the decision lap

651
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 1: dot com great information about cognitive bias on that website.

652
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 1: So our brains are just constantly filtering information. We are

653
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 1: filtering machines. If we were to actually like absorb all

654
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: of the information we're taking in and process that, we

655
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 1: would lose our minds.

656
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 5: There's just no way to like fully absorb everything.

657
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 1: There's so much subconscious stuff that's happening at all times.

658
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 5: So basically, cognitive biases.

659
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 1: Are mental shortcuts that our brains take out of necessity

660
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: to conserve energy for us. Daniel Conneman, if have you

661
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 1: guys read Thinking Fast and Slow Listeners If anyone hasn't

662
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 1: read it, highly recommend. But Daniel Conneman is this researcher

663
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 1: who sort of pioneered this field, and he talks about

664
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: how our brains have, and we talked about this before,

665
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 1: our brains have like system one and system two. And

666
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 1: System one is this sort of automatic, subconscious process that's

667
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 1: constantly happening, these like snap judgments that we make, and

668
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 1: System two is the.

669
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 5: More thoughtful like, oh wait, let me actually think about that.

670
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 5: Maybe my first instinct was wrong.

671
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 1: And most of us are operating from system one all

672
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: of the time into sort of trusting that system.

673
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 5: Which for the most part is like, you know.

674
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 7: It's adaptive. Yeah, like we've adapted it to be fairly active.

675
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 3: I mean, what's it adaptive for though? Is that another right?

676
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 6: Like murder trials? Maybe not?

677
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 2: Maybe like making a decision at a grocery store, right right.

678
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, right, Well, when I think about something like

679
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 4: confirmation bias, right, like the tendency to seek out information

680
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 4: that confirms your previously held belief and to ignore information

681
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 4: that doesn't, that's not adaptive for finding the truth. It

682
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 4: is adaptive for tribally arguing your side. That's what we

683
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 4: evolved for. If you look at like, you know, John

684
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 4: Hates's work The Righteous Mind.

685
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 3: Do you know that book?

686
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 4: It's one of our favorite books. He's a psychologist. That

687
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 4: book's as important.

688
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 5: I think is the best The Righteous Mind.

689
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 4: And one of the things he talks about is that

690
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 4: the conscious mind is like a writer on top of

691
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 4: an elephant, and the.

692
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 3: Elephant mostly goes where it wants to go.

693
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 7: That's that first impulse that like instinct.

694
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 4: The system one is the elephant going where it's going,

695
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 4: and then on top the conscious mind that's coming up

696
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 4: with all these reasons. It is basically coming up with

697
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 4: a reason why the elephant is going away.

698
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 8: It's going right, it's not really able to steer it

699
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 8: like it can kind of sort of give it like

700
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 8: a carrot over here or stick of rear.

701
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 7: But it's an elephant. What are we talking like?

702
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 3: You know, So we're loyering most of the time.

703
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 4: We're lawyering for the instinctual beliefs that we have come to,

704
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 4: not through logic.

705
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 8: Right.

706
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 3: The part of us that is coming up with.

707
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 4: Reasons is rationalizing rather than acting on upon reasons, right, which.

708
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 1: Is uncomfortable to think about, because we really want to

709
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 1: believe that we're in the driver's seat.

710
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 7: Yeah, but we're not.

711
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 4: Well, some deeper part of us is right, just not

712
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 4: the part that's doing all this language up here.

713
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 7: Right.

714
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, what's everyone's favorite cognitive bias?

715
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 5: I would love to talk about that? Okay, Meghan, you

716
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 5: go first.

717
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 2: Oh, minus the rhyma's reasons effect, which you know, Foxy

718
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 2: Noxie they took and ran with and that kind of

719
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 2: you know, sculpted how we saw it. And then I

720
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 2: was thinking they do that with celebrity couples too, They

721
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 2: combine their names and the like. That's why benefit is

722
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 2: probably back together because they have the name.

723
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 5: You know, can you describe what exactly that is?

724
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,360
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's just if something rhymes are, if something

725
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,319
Speaker 2: is combined or catchy, it feels more true to you.

726
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 2: So Foxy Knox the glob you must have quit, right, yeah?

727
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 6: Right, So like, oh she's.

728
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 2: Foxy, she's sly, she's like manipulative, she's bad. Yeah, it

729
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 2: just slid right through your mind and that's.

730
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:28,919
Speaker 6: Who you saw.

731
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,399
Speaker 7: Yeah, that's a good one. Thank you for a good one.

732
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:34,279
Speaker 5: Do you guys have faith?

733
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 7: Which is the one? Is the misattribution?

734
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 3: The fundamental attribution?

735
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:40,919
Speaker 7: Yeah, the fundamental attribution.

736
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,800
Speaker 3: Errors bias, Yeah, after.

737
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 8: Observer bias, where you like, when you see someone else

738
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 8: you do something that you don't like, say, you look

739
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 8: at them and you decide that they did that thing

740
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:55,719
Speaker 8: because of the kind of person they are, But if

741
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 8: you were to do the same thing, it would be

742
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 8: because oh well there's all this context. It doesn't say

743
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 8: he who I am?

744
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 1: Like.

745
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:03,839
Speaker 8: So it's that bias of thinking that when people do

746
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 8: things that aren't you, you think, well, they're that kind

747
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 8: of person, they're the kind of person who would do that.

748
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 4: Negative and someone does something laudable, Oh well, he got

749
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 4: that award because you know that he knows the judges right,

750
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,359
Speaker 4: that you find some contextual reason that it is not right,

751
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 4: and when they do something bad, then it's because you're

752
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 4: a bad person. This was a huge one in Amanda's case,

753
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:29,799
Speaker 4: because everyone looking at her behavior in those early days said, oh, well,

754
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,319
Speaker 4: she reacted weird in this moment and in that right.

755
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 4: And of course when you strip her behavior out of

756
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 4: context and isolate some small moment and play it on

757
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,799
Speaker 4: loop a million times, yeah, it can look weird. Then

758
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,439
Speaker 4: you conclude, via the actor observer bias, that it must

759
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 4: tell you something fundamental about her character, because you're ignoring

760
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,360
Speaker 4: the fact that she's six thousand miles from home, speaking

761
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 4: a foreign language, and it is very, very confused by

762
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 4: what's even happening right right.

763
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 1: I feel like that particular one is maybe the most

764
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,359
Speaker 1: prevalent one that I see on a daily basis. It's

765
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,320
Speaker 1: the biggest problem in politics, and it's a big reason

766
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 1: for so much of our division right now, because if

767
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,239
Speaker 1: somebody whose politics we disagree with does something that we

768
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 1: disagree with, it is much easier for us to say, well, they're.

769
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:17,760
Speaker 5: Just a racist, or they're just a liberal.

770
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 1: Hollywood elite or whatever than it is to actually have

771
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 1: to think more deeply about something that is a little

772
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:25,839
Speaker 1: bit more complex than the reason for.

773
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 7: And what their context might be.

774
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 8: Right, you know, what it would actually be like to

775
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,400
Speaker 8: be in their shoes thinking this is the best thought.

776
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 7: That I can have, right, totally.

777
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:36,280
Speaker 6: Yeah.

778
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:38,879
Speaker 3: I think the anchoring bias is another huge one.

779
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 7: Yeah, is that your favorite?

780
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:40,439
Speaker 4: Though?

781
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 7: I thought we're talking favorite.

782
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, might be my favorite.

783
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 7: Yeah.

784
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 3: Thet thing you hear is such a simple thing. And

785
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 3: there's studies.

786
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 4: There's a guy etl Drawer, he's a forensic psychologist, has

787
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:57,280
Speaker 4: done a study with fingerprint analysts and gave them biasing information,

788
00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 4: sort of anchoring bias that a suspect confessed and in

789
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 4: group A, you know, the person handing the prints to

790
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 4: the analyst say so by the way, the suspect confessed.

791
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 3: Group B, they don't say anything. And he did.

792
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:10,399
Speaker 4: The clever thing about this experiment is that he gave

793
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 4: these fingerprint analysts the very same fingerprints they themselves had

794
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 4: matched ten years ago, so it's their own old casework.

795
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,399
Speaker 4: And then they a lot of the time switched their

796
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 4: analysis and said match or no match based on whether

797
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 4: they had been told.

798
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 3: That the suspect confessed, so they had wow.

799
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 4: And that tells you that fingerprint analysis is a lot

800
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 4: more of an art than spence if that piece of

801
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 4: information can anchor them and totally shift their analysis, right.

802
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 1: So that is the tendency to rely on the first

803
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 1: piece of information that you get, regardless of whether it's

804
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,280
Speaker 1: a valid So people might hear the name Amanda Knox

805
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,240
Speaker 1: and think murderer because that's the first piece of information

806
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:52,360
Speaker 1: that they got, and it is so hard to undo

807
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 1: that once that's like been established in your brain.

808
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 2: And also just the cult of media and sensationalism, like

809
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 2: it was so exciting for her to be finnxy Naxie

810
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 2: the murder.

811
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,319
Speaker 6: No one gives a shit that she's not, Like, yeah,

812
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:04,800
Speaker 6: that's not fun, right, Yeah.

813
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 7: It's way less of a sexy story.

814
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 8: Yeah.

815
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:11,879
Speaker 2: When we were cutting your story, you know, we were

816
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:13,920
Speaker 2: talking to people and they're just like, oh, was she

817
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:14,920
Speaker 2: found innocent?

818
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 5: And it's like, yeah, like people don't know, Yeah, it's not.

819
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 6: The same story.

820
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:22,839
Speaker 7: It doesn't ping as well, Yeah it.

821
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 5: Doesn't, but hopefully it will.

822
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 6: Yeah.

823
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 1: Okay, So my favorite yes, yeah, it is the just

824
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 1: world hypothesis, which refers to our belief that the world

825
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 1: is fair, and therefore we want to believe that those

826
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 1: who do good will be rewarded and those who exhibit

827
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 1: negative behaviors will be punished. And when we see an

828
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,839
Speaker 1: injustice happen, it is easier for us to believe that

829
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:50,360
Speaker 1: that person deserved it then that an injustice occurred, because

830
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 1: it is again just like difficult to wrap our heads

831
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:56,359
Speaker 1: around the possibility that things could just be chaotic and

832
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:57,440
Speaker 1: out of our control.

833
00:38:57,719 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 4: And they.

834
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 5: Know because it's like all the work I'm doing in therapy.

835
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:06,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to control its Yeah, but we don't

836
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 1: have that ability. And that's such a huge one in

837
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:12,959
Speaker 1: terms of cult stuff too, because so many people look

838
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 1: at survivors and this goes for rape survivor, this goes

839
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:18,920
Speaker 1: for all kinds of survivors and think, well, they must

840
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 1: have had something wrong with them, they must have been dumb,

841
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 1: they must have been something Yeah, exactly like I would

842
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: never do that, so akay, I don't want.

843
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 8: That happens to me, right, Yeah, It's so sad because

844
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 8: it really is, like it does a disservice to like,

845
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 8: first of all, these very people who are human beings,

846
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:38,319
Speaker 8: who are like smart and caring and thoughtful people who

847
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,279
Speaker 8: are just their traumas being diminished because they're basically being

848
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 8: victim blamed.

849
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 7: Yeah, and in the meantime, we're.

850
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 8: Also failing to use these stories as an opportunity to

851
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 8: have a better idea of how our own minds work

852
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 8: because we're just saying, oh, they're other than us, My

853
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:53,359
Speaker 8: brain doesn't work like that.

854
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 7: They're just broken people.

855
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, we have this real strong need to be smarter

856
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:04,279
Speaker 1: to feel like we know better. It is, it is,

857
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 1: But I just I would love for collectively everyone to

858
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 1: get a little bit better at interrogating those instincts, which

859
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:12,800
Speaker 1: is why we are talking about this today.

860
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 6: Have you found that do you now? Amanda?

861
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 2: Just find that you are not making assumptions as much

862
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 2: as you used to. Have you kind of trained yourself

863
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 2: a little bit differently now.

864
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:26,719
Speaker 8: I think what I do is I'm constantly questioning myself

865
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 8: whether or not I'm making an assumption, and I'll catch

866
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 8: myself making assumptions because again, like it's natural, it's instinctual

867
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:36,800
Speaker 8: to do so. I think the thing that I feel

868
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 8: distinguishes me from other people in my life, say, is

869
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 8: just realizing how negative the consequences can be towards not

870
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 8: reevaluating and not doing that like sort of self auditing

871
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:50,719
Speaker 8: of one's assumptions that you're making. And so when I

872
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:54,399
Speaker 8: see people, you know, I'll argue with my sister say

873
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:56,839
Speaker 8: and and I'll be like, oh, but you're making an

874
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,319
Speaker 8: assumption there, and she's just like it kind of goes

875
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:01,839
Speaker 8: over her head that like she's making Like I'll try

876
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 8: to point out no, but you're assuming something right now

877
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,760
Speaker 8: and like and it's like no, no, like please, just

878
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 8: just because you feel like something is true and that's

879
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 8: the first thing that came to your mind when you

880
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 8: examined the situation doesn't mean that it is true, right,

881
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:20,240
Speaker 8: And that impulse is so difficult to unpack for people

882
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:22,759
Speaker 8: who I don't know, like I've felt it, how it

883
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 8: resonated in my life and had a deep, horrible consequence

884
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 8: in my life. So I try to be really mindful

885
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 8: of it of how I might be doing it, But

886
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:32,799
Speaker 8: then I find other people are not. I feel like

887
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 8: people again, trust that first instinct way more than they

888
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:41,839
Speaker 8: trust evidence, and you can't talk them out of their instincts.

889
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:44,360
Speaker 7: So the fascinating problem.

890
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:48,399
Speaker 4: Even being like adjacent to Amanda has been incredibly illuminating

891
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 4: for me, not just when like I'll find myself in

892
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 4: some tabloid magazine and hilariously out of context depiction.

893
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 3: Of who I am and what I'm about.

894
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 4: Right, that alone gives you a little like oh, like

895
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 4: wow that how wrong is the portrait of every other human.

896
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:05,280
Speaker 3: That appears in those pages?

897
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 4: Rightly, but seeing how wrong people are about Amanda on

898
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 4: a daily basis, it's just this like continual reminder like, oh,

899
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:15,239
Speaker 4: who am I wrong about?

900
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:15,800
Speaker 7: Right?

901
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 3: I'm probably a lot of people.

902
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, So as soon as somebody's telling me this person

903
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:22,319
Speaker 4: is like this and this is what they're about, and

904
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:23,799
Speaker 4: this is what they're guilty of, and this is why

905
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,880
Speaker 4: we should hate them, especially when it has that negative valence,

906
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:29,359
Speaker 4: that's when I recall that. Okay, like I know there's

907
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:31,400
Speaker 4: people out there right now saying that about my wife.

908
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 4: So let's take a step back. I don't know what

909
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,240
Speaker 4: do I actually know? Have I read the court documents?

910
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 4: You know?

911
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:37,400
Speaker 3: Was I there?

912
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 2: I think there's so much resistance to it because we're

913
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:44,319
Speaker 2: taught gut instincts are so important, and they are too

914
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 2: and they.

915
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 7: Are yeah also, yeah, they're adaptive. What is that?

916
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:50,880
Speaker 8: The gift of fear was also a really good, important

917
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 8: book that is saying, Okay, when I have a bad

918
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 8: vibe about someone, I should maybe walk away, even if

919
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 8: I can't explain to myself why. It's not to say

920
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:05,320
Speaker 8: that cognitive biases can't be useful and also can't be true.

921
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 8: It's just that if evidence comes to light that challenges

922
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:12,720
Speaker 8: what your cognitive bias made you think about a person

923
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:16,880
Speaker 8: or a situation, then allow yourself the opportunity to reevaluate

924
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 8: your initial instinct.

925
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:21,800
Speaker 1: Right, it's the ultimate test of humility. Am I able

926
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 1: to be wrong? It's hard, It's really really hard. I

927
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 1: want to talk about some of the really benign behaviors

928
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:36,360
Speaker 1: that were interpreted as a sign of an evil murderer woman.

929
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 7: Totally yeah, so I can. Yeah, yeah, eating pizza.

930
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:47,399
Speaker 8: Buying underwear because I like all of my clothes were

931
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:50,320
Speaker 8: locked away in a crime scene and my period started

932
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 8: and I needed a new pair of underwear, so I

933
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:53,719
Speaker 8: went and bought a new pair of underwear. But of

934
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:56,280
Speaker 8: course that just means that I'm a sex crazed maniac

935
00:43:56,360 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 8: who can't not celebrate a murder by buying underwear late.

936
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 8: But I think the one of the ones that's also

937
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 8: sort of stayed with me is how people would say

938
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 8: back in the day, they were Raphaela kissing me outside

939
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 8: of my house in the immediacy of finding out that

940
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 8: this crime scene was there. People have looked back on

941
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 8: those three seconds of my life.

942
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:20,759
Speaker 7: I feel like those are.

943
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:25,760
Speaker 8: The most closely examined, re examined three seconds of my life.

944
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:27,919
Speaker 7: There's no comparison.

945
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:30,279
Speaker 8: They have been on loop, they have been zoom in,

946
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 8: zoom out, on repeat slow mo. Like the number of

947
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:36,880
Speaker 8: times those three seconds of my life have been regurgitated

948
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 8: in order to show me as someone who was callous

949
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:43,399
Speaker 8: and didn't care that her roommate had been murdered. And

950
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 8: people don't actually understand that in that moment, I reacted

951
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 8: very differently than my roommate did, Philamina, who was also there,

952
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 8: Like there were two of us roommates that were there

953
00:44:56,280 --> 00:45:00,439
Speaker 8: to discover this crime scene. I reacted by of being

954
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:04,440
Speaker 8: quiet and confused and RAPHAELI giving me a kiss. My

955
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:08,240
Speaker 8: other room mate, Philamina, was hysterical and lost her mind

956
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 8: and was like crying and weeping and doing her.

957
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 7: Very dramatic reaction.

958
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 8: And a lot of people look at that moment and think, well, clearly,

959
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:17,800
Speaker 8: Amanda doesn't care about her roommate.

960
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 7: Look at her other roommate. She's losing her mind.

961
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:26,359
Speaker 8: And what people forget is that Philomena saw inside Meredith's room.

962
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 8: She saw the blood, she saw the body. She was deeply,

963
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 8: deeply reacting to a very visceral realization of what had

964
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:40,480
Speaker 8: happened to Meredith. I did not see into Meredith's room.

965
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:43,800
Speaker 8: I did not see her body. I never saw her blood.

966
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:48,719
Speaker 8: I did not see that horrific scene. And everyone was

967
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:52,440
Speaker 8: talking in Italian, so I wasn't even sure what they

968
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:55,760
Speaker 8: had seen in that room. I was hearing different things,

969
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:58,359
Speaker 8: and I was very confused, and I wasn't sure what

970
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:02,760
Speaker 8: was going on. So I was reacting from a place

971
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:05,799
Speaker 8: of being really confused and not having a lot of

972
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:10,160
Speaker 8: information and feeling sad because I think I realized that

973
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 8: something bad had happened to Meredith, but I wasn't sure

974
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 8: if it was even Meredith in the room, like it

975
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 8: was ucorretled right.

976
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:19,760
Speaker 1: I also want to add that even if you had

977
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:25,360
Speaker 1: known people react to trauma in myriad ways. Many people

978
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:29,479
Speaker 1: go into shock and like don't register what's actually going

979
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 1: on yet emotionally, So even if you had seen it

980
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 1: and were behaving that way like that's still not evidence

981
00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 1: of anything other than that you are reacting though way, yeah.

982
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:42,880
Speaker 4: That's that was the thrust of Malcolm Gladwell's chapter in

983
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:47,399
Speaker 4: Talking to Strangers was that Amanda reacts differently than other

984
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 4: people too. She reacts in a guilty way. She's the

985
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 4: kind of innocent person. But that's the thesis, right, and

986
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:59,480
Speaker 4: you're absolutely right that people react differently to trauma. There's

987
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:01,880
Speaker 4: also a cultural layer to that, where I think Italians

988
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:06,200
Speaker 4: are more likely to be very vocal and expressive, not

989
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:09,440
Speaker 4: only with their mouths but with their hands, whether it's

990
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:10,800
Speaker 4: a positive or negative emotion.

991
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 3: So some cultures are more reserved, et cetera. But prior

992
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:15,440
Speaker 3: to all that is.

993
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 4: The media selection bias, that is, choosing which little chunks

994
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 4: of reality get looped and handed to you. How many

995
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 4: hours of footage are there from that day where Amanda's

996
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:28,680
Speaker 4: just kind of looking tired or confused or scared. Nobody

997
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:32,480
Speaker 4: saw that footage, That footage wasn't played on loop zoomed

998
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 4: in slow mo. They find the one little snippet of

999
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 4: the politician eating the hot dog and then freeze frame.

1000
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 4: This guy looks like a dufis right, Everyone can look

1001
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:42,840
Speaker 4: like a dufist for a second, if you grab the

1002
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:46,840
Speaker 4: right screencat and anybody can look callous outside a murder scene,

1003
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:48,800
Speaker 4: if you film them for three hours and find the

1004
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 4: right three seconds.

1005
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:50,399
Speaker 6: That's what I was going to say.

1006
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:52,920
Speaker 2: They're filming inside these two people like all in white,

1007
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 2: getting the body, and they're like smiling and talking to

1008
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 2: each other, and I'm like.

1009
00:47:56,120 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 6: Uh, what, Like sometimes you just have to be person,

1010
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 6: you know?

1011
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 1: Yeh cope in that moment in the Netflix documentary, which

1012
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:08,359
Speaker 1: I loved and thought was incredible, are you happy with it?

1013
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1014
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:11,080
Speaker 7: I thought that filmmakers did a really good job.

1015
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 8: The main reason being that they went out of their

1016
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:18,000
Speaker 8: way to ask not just of everyone who was me

1017
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:21,360
Speaker 8: and Raphaela and the prosecutor and everyone. They didn't just

1018
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:23,800
Speaker 8: ask us what happened. They asked us what we thought

1019
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:27,480
Speaker 8: about what happened, And so there was a broader conversation

1020
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:31,360
Speaker 8: happening about on my hand, like trying to put myself

1021
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 8: in the shoes of people who think that I'm guilty

1022
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:38,360
Speaker 8: when I'm not, and the tabloid journalists who's talking about

1023
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 8: his industry and how you know, like this is what

1024
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 8: gets headlines, and also all the people who are judging me,

1025
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:46,319
Speaker 8: they're the ones who are clicking on my headlines, So

1026
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:48,759
Speaker 8: who were they to judge me? Like, all of those

1027
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:51,920
Speaker 8: are really interesting observations that I think made it a

1028
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:55,760
Speaker 8: documentary that was about more than just this particular case.

1029
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:56,560
Speaker 7: For sure.

1030
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,799
Speaker 1: I remember a moment where they were talking about like

1031
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:01,920
Speaker 1: a photo of you that they had found with like

1032
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:06,399
Speaker 1: a gun or something. Oh her MySpace picture, And I

1033
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 1: was like, if I were anywhere near a murder and

1034
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:13,200
Speaker 1: somebody went through my social media, like I'm a horror girl,

1035
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 1: Like I direct horror, I watch horror, I love horror.

1036
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 1: I talk about blood all the time, Like I would

1037
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 1: be assumed to be a murder in like an instant.

1038
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 5: There's so much evidence for it.

1039
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:25,239
Speaker 1: If that's the kind of direction that you're going down,

1040
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 1: it's just, yeah, we will find what we're looking.

1041
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:30,200
Speaker 2: I always think about that murder at the Cecil Hotel

1042
00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:32,120
Speaker 2: where the guy was staying there that night who was

1043
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:34,680
Speaker 2: like a heavy metal Did you guys watch that documentary

1044
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:38,239
Speaker 2: and he heard things my mom, Yeah, that guy he's

1045
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:40,239
Speaker 2: staying at the Cecil Hotel the same night as her,

1046
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:42,080
Speaker 2: and he's like a heavy metal guy, and he's like

1047
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:44,759
Speaker 2: I love death and killing and like all this shit

1048
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 2: and so everybody's like it's you and he just.

1049
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:47,839
Speaker 5: Does and his life is through.

1050
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just some kid who wanted to paint his

1051
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:52,320
Speaker 2: face white and like be crazy.

1052
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 1: It's so well in the West Memphis three, it's the

1053
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 1: same fucking thing. It's always that like satanic evil. A

1054
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 1: look at these signs that they must be into.

1055
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:01,640
Speaker 7: They wear black.

1056
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, ooh yeah.

1057
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:05,280
Speaker 5: So many tragedies.

1058
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 4: But like even that, the evidence they found for Amanda

1059
00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 4: was so so benign, right, Like that the photo of

1060
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 4: the gun you're talking about is like a World War

1061
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:17,080
Speaker 4: One like machine gun in a museum that she took

1062
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:21,040
Speaker 4: a sort of jokey photo pretending that she was right. Right,

1063
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 4: It's like so far away from the what you're talking about,

1064
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:27,840
Speaker 4: like what your social media would have right exactly.

1065
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 1: It's like you have to dig so deep to fund,

1066
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 1: like and think so hard about it to make that work.

1067
00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:34,400
Speaker 1: I also come from a hunting family. I have photos

1068
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:37,160
Speaker 1: with actual guns, you know. Like, yeah, there are so

1069
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:40,240
Speaker 1: many different ways into the conversation about what the media picks,

1070
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 1: but I think it's just like particularly relevant for our

1071
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 1: society right now, especially in the age of getting information

1072
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:52,759
Speaker 1: from TikTok, getting information from Twitter from infographics. When the

1073
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:57,360
Speaker 1: message is something that feels right and important and righteous,

1074
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 1: it is much more difficult to accept that.

1075
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 5: It might be more complicated than that.

1076
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:05,759
Speaker 1: And there are like eight different advisors at play in

1077
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:06,840
Speaker 1: that kind of situation.

1078
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:08,680
Speaker 5: But yeah, I don't know, I just think it's important

1079
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:09,600
Speaker 5: to talk about that.

1080
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:15,520
Speaker 8: Oh yeah, And it is frustrating when it seems like

1081
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:18,400
Speaker 8: this thing that really resonates with you, that's super important,

1082
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:21,279
Speaker 8: then turns out to be more complicated and now, yeah,

1083
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:21,840
Speaker 8: it's annoying.

1084
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:24,480
Speaker 7: Well maybe, yeah.

1085
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:25,920
Speaker 3: It's almost always more complicated.

1086
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:26,200
Speaker 1: Right.

1087
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:29,839
Speaker 3: It is related. I forget the name of this one.

1088
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:30,480
Speaker 3: Maybe you know it.

1089
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:33,120
Speaker 4: It's related, I think to the just world hypothesis. And

1090
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:35,800
Speaker 4: it has to do with a kind of false assumption

1091
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:38,200
Speaker 4: that grand events have grand causes.

1092
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:41,320
Speaker 3: And so when you look at like nine to eleven.

1093
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:43,520
Speaker 4: Truthers or something like, the scale of the tragedy is

1094
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:46,880
Speaker 4: so big that people don't want to believe that a

1095
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 4: thousand little decisions, you know, little slip ups here and there,

1096
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:54,279
Speaker 4: and the intelligence gathering all that led to this scenario, right,

1097
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:57,120
Speaker 4: and that it must have been an even grander conspiracy

1098
00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:01,920
Speaker 4: than nineteen Al Qaida do right, right must have involved

1099
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:05,520
Speaker 4: the US government, and same thing with Amanda's case. Well,

1100
00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 4: a local burglar and there's some cops who didn't want

1101
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:11,239
Speaker 4: to admit they were wrong, and some media that went

1102
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:13,239
Speaker 4: for this salacious headline, Like, it doesn't have.

1103
00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:15,920
Speaker 8: To be like a grand conspiracy to put an innocent

1104
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 8: person in jail.

1105
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:20,160
Speaker 7: It can just be a lot of little wrong.

1106
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:20,439
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1107
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 4: I mean it happens on both ends, Like people look

1108
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:24,600
Speaker 4: at Meredith's death and think, well, there needs to be

1109
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:28,200
Speaker 4: some complicated explanation for this, just a.

1110
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:29,120
Speaker 3: Burglary had gone wrong.

1111
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:30,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, And then on the other side, they look at

1112
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:33,720
Speaker 4: Amanda's wrongful conviction and people who support her will sometimes

1113
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:36,560
Speaker 4: be like they framed you, that evil prosecutor and say, well, no,

1114
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:39,560
Speaker 4: probably that guy just thought he was doing something right

1115
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:41,160
Speaker 4: and wasn't and.

1116
00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:42,320
Speaker 7: He didn't want to admit that he was.

1117
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:46,440
Speaker 6: He's so tragic. Oh my god. In the documentary, just.

1118
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:50,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's like loves old detective movies or something.

1119
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:53,600
Speaker 7: He's like, yeah, like Sherlock Holms kind of guy. Yeah.

1120
00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:57,160
Speaker 1: I also forgot to mention one specific one is maybe

1121
00:52:57,160 --> 00:52:59,200
Speaker 1: not as media related, but that I think is super.

1122
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:01,799
Speaker 5: Interesting, which is the hot cold empathy gap.

1123
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:02,760
Speaker 3: Oh.

1124
00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:04,319
Speaker 7: I don't think I've heard of this one. Tell me.

1125
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:06,960
Speaker 5: So, human understanding is state dependent.

1126
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 1: So hot is when we are being influenced by some

1127
00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:15,920
Speaker 1: like pressing physical or emotional feeling, so hunger, anger, fear, exhaustion,

1128
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:19,880
Speaker 1: sexual desire, et cetera. And cold is when we don't

1129
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 1: have any like strong feelings influencing the way that we're thinking.

1130
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:25,800
Speaker 1: So we're able to think a little bit more logically.

1131
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:28,920
Speaker 1: And when we're hot, we have trouble seeing how much

1132
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:31,440
Speaker 1: our behavior is being driven by these factors, so we

1133
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:34,399
Speaker 1: make decisions that only consider our like narrow short term state,

1134
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 1: and that's called the hot to cold gap. And the

1135
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 1: cold to hot gap, which I think is especially important,

1136
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:42,160
Speaker 1: is that when we are cold, when we are in

1137
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:45,759
Speaker 1: our logical, rational state of mind, we wrongly predict how

1138
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:49,160
Speaker 1: we would behave in a highly charged situation because we

1139
00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:51,480
Speaker 1: are not factoring in the hot state that we would

1140
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:52,040
Speaker 1: be in.

1141
00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:53,120
Speaker 6: Right at that time.

1142
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:55,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're just like watching our TV being like I

1143
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:57,920
Speaker 2: would have been different because we're relaxed.

1144
00:53:57,440 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I would never join that cold Come on,

1145
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:02,279
Speaker 1: it's so love this. Yah, I would never kiss my

1146
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:04,000
Speaker 1: boyfriend after our murder.

1147
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:05,000
Speaker 5: What the hell you know?

1148
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:06,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great one.

1149
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:10,240
Speaker 4: I like that one that reminds me of this study

1150
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:12,560
Speaker 4: that came out of Saul cass And he's a false

1151
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:16,560
Speaker 4: confessions expert that actually his research was super important for Amanda,

1152
00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:19,320
Speaker 4: like realizing that what had happened to her was pretty

1153
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:23,120
Speaker 4: textbook for course of interrogations. But one of his students,

1154
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:25,560
Speaker 4: one of his grad students, had this paper that she

1155
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 4: presented a while ago about the biasing effect of color

1156
00:54:29,640 --> 00:54:31,319
Speaker 4: versus black and white photographs of.

1157
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:32,640
Speaker 3: Crime scenes on juris.

1158
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:35,799
Speaker 4: Oh, and it turns out like if you think about,

1159
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:39,359
Speaker 4: like what information is being conveyed to a jury when

1160
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:41,799
Speaker 4: you see crime scene photos, Like does putting it in

1161
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:44,799
Speaker 4: color give you information? Or does it just give you

1162
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:47,240
Speaker 4: an added layer of emotional bias?

1163
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:47,960
Speaker 5: Interesting?

1164
00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:50,200
Speaker 4: Right, it puts you into that hot state when you

1165
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:51,160
Speaker 4: see all that blood.

1166
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:53,719
Speaker 3: It triggers you in that deep visceral way, and.

1167
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:55,640
Speaker 7: So you're more likely to find someone guilty.

1168
00:54:55,840 --> 00:54:59,480
Speaker 3: So guilty verdicts increase when people have photos.

1169
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:02,560
Speaker 5: That is fascinating. It makes so much sense. Priming.

1170
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:04,160
Speaker 1: I was just saying this to Megan before we were recording,

1171
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:07,480
Speaker 1: But priming terrifies me the fact that like just the

1172
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:09,839
Speaker 1: all these little sub cut just things that you see

1173
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:12,760
Speaker 1: in the room can change the outcome of a decision

1174
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:14,760
Speaker 1: you're about to make that could be potentially really important,

1175
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:17,040
Speaker 1: whether a doctor is hungry, whether.

1176
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:24,080
Speaker 8: The sandwich thing like we should have just emergency sandwiches.

1177
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:28,279
Speaker 2: We should There was like the by effect where if

1178
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:31,320
Speaker 2: you say b ye at the end of something, people

1179
00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:33,120
Speaker 2: will be you why something.

1180
00:55:33,160 --> 00:55:36,920
Speaker 6: They'll buy something because somebody said buy it's.

1181
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, it's scary, and we do want to

1182
00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:42,680
Speaker 2: think we're above it, and we sure are not.

1183
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:47,560
Speaker 5: No, we sure are not robots. Amana.

1184
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:49,760
Speaker 1: I want you to talk about the term that you coined,

1185
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:51,719
Speaker 1: which is the single victim fallacy.

1186
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:56,879
Speaker 8: Yes, so this was just a rose because I observed

1187
00:55:57,080 --> 00:56:00,480
Speaker 8: that very often when I speak about my own victimhood

1188
00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:03,680
Speaker 8: at the hands of the Italian criminal justice system, what

1189
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:06,879
Speaker 8: gets thrown back at me is that I'm not the

1190
00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:10,279
Speaker 8: real victim, that the real victim is Meredith, and so

1191
00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:13,359
Speaker 8: I should just be grateful and I should shut up

1192
00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:18,000
Speaker 8: because there's only one victim here and it's Meredith. And

1193
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:20,799
Speaker 8: the thing that I wanted to point out was that

1194
00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:25,520
Speaker 8: there's this mindset that there can only be one true

1195
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 8: victim in any given circumstance. That's the single victim fallacy,

1196
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:34,120
Speaker 8: and it's reducing a complicated situation where there are opportunities

1197
00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:38,160
Speaker 8: for victimization at lots of different levels. That is being

1198
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:41,120
Speaker 8: ignored and turned into a black and white narrative of

1199
00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:45,360
Speaker 8: you either are or are not the victim in this situation.

1200
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:49,120
Speaker 8: So what I wanted to point out is that I

1201
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:51,600
Speaker 8: can be a victim of the Italian justice system, and

1202
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:54,880
Speaker 8: that doesn't mean that Meredith is any less a victim

1203
00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:56,520
Speaker 8: of Rudy Guede Right.

1204
00:56:56,680 --> 00:56:58,440
Speaker 3: Wrongful convictions multiply.

1205
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:01,880
Speaker 8: Victimhood, right, they don't like, they don't cancel out the

1206
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:04,279
Speaker 8: victimhood of the person who was murdered. Right.

1207
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:07,040
Speaker 1: That is such an excellent point. Yeah, I think that's

1208
00:57:07,040 --> 00:57:08,240
Speaker 1: important to talk about in general.

1209
00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:10,839
Speaker 8: It seems like I'm not inventing anything interesting there, because

1210
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:13,439
Speaker 8: it's like, well duh. But you'd be surprised the number

1211
00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:17,400
Speaker 8: of people who feel like you have to choose in

1212
00:57:17,440 --> 00:57:20,160
Speaker 8: a situation where there's a potential wrongful conviction, you are

1213
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:22,560
Speaker 8: either on the side of the original victim or you

1214
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:25,240
Speaker 8: are on the side of the wrongfully convicted person, right,

1215
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:27,200
Speaker 8: And that's not right for me.

1216
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:30,800
Speaker 4: So often that the wrongfully convicted person is put forward

1217
00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:35,480
Speaker 4: by the prosecution as the answer to the grief for

1218
00:57:35,680 --> 00:57:36,840
Speaker 4: the family of the victim.

1219
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:39,840
Speaker 3: Right, So like, here's the key to your closure. It's

1220
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:40,440
Speaker 3: this person.

1221
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:41,000
Speaker 8: Right.

1222
00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:43,520
Speaker 4: And then when you say, hey, that person's innocent, it's

1223
00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:46,480
Speaker 4: like you're ripping away their closure, right, And you are,

1224
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:48,680
Speaker 4: in a sense ripping away their closure if they're in

1225
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:50,440
Speaker 4: Amanda's case, it's even.

1226
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:53,600
Speaker 3: Crazier because the real guy is right over there, you know.

1227
00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:56,680
Speaker 4: It's not like it's an unknown killer on the loose still,

1228
00:57:56,760 --> 00:57:58,040
Speaker 4: which is true in many cases.

1229
00:57:58,240 --> 00:57:58,520
Speaker 8: Right.

1230
00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:01,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, it gives a lot of way for that self

1231
00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:04,800
Speaker 2: righteous peers Morgan kind of statements. I saw he said

1232
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:07,280
Speaker 2: something about you where it's like you said something about

1233
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:09,360
Speaker 2: being locked up for four years, and he's like, wow,

1234
00:58:09,520 --> 00:58:13,560
Speaker 2: sucks for you. Meredith's dead, and it's like, okay, Also

1235
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:15,000
Speaker 2: I went to that helpment.

1236
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:18,360
Speaker 8: Yeah, and it's like, I'm not comparing myself to Meredith.

1237
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:20,120
Speaker 7: Why are you comparing me to Merrit? Right?

1238
00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:23,520
Speaker 4: Like, well, because in his mind, Amanda only exists in

1239
00:58:23,560 --> 00:58:26,800
Speaker 4: the narrow box of the Kirture case, right, She only

1240
00:58:26,840 --> 00:58:29,120
Speaker 4: exists in relation to that crime, and he hasn't done

1241
00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:31,400
Speaker 4: the empathy work to imagine that she's a whole person.

1242
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:35,000
Speaker 4: Whose life has continued on far beyond two thousand and seven. Yeah,

1243
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:37,320
Speaker 4: when Meredith's life ended at the hands of Rudy Gudey.

1244
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:40,760
Speaker 4: So it's this instinctual like, well, I know you in

1245
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:43,720
Speaker 4: relation to this story. You're this character in the morality

1246
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:46,320
Speaker 4: play that I'm familiar with. Right, this is what Juliette

1247
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:47,280
Speaker 4: does in that play.

1248
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:49,840
Speaker 3: Right, you know, this is your role in that play.

1249
00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:51,640
Speaker 3: I know your role, I know how it fits in

1250
00:58:51,640 --> 00:58:52,920
Speaker 3: relation to the other characters.

1251
00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:57,120
Speaker 8: And your victimization doesn't matter because it's less than what

1252
00:58:57,320 --> 00:58:57,919
Speaker 8: someone else.

1253
00:58:58,040 --> 00:59:00,520
Speaker 4: Even when we went back to Italy in twenty nineteen,

1254
00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:02,800
Speaker 4: people were saying, like, it's offensive to the Kurtuer family

1255
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:04,520
Speaker 4: that you would go back to Italy, that you would

1256
00:59:04,680 --> 00:59:07,400
Speaker 4: do something that would put you in the headlines. It's like, wow,

1257
00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:10,440
Speaker 4: she's not writing the headlines. You're the one choosing to

1258
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:15,120
Speaker 4: cover this story, right, don't write about it then, yeah.

1259
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:16,720
Speaker 6: It's not news. Yeah.

1260
00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:19,080
Speaker 8: And also I should be allowed to talk about my

1261
00:59:19,160 --> 00:59:23,240
Speaker 8: own victimization, like I have my own life experience, then

1262
00:59:23,560 --> 00:59:27,000
Speaker 8: I can speak to that. And it's in no way

1263
00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:31,280
Speaker 8: me trying to say that what happened to Meredith doesn't matter.

1264
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:34,640
Speaker 4: In fact, I think it's you honoring what happened to

1265
00:59:34,680 --> 00:59:37,080
Speaker 4: Meredith even more than pretty much anyone else does.

1266
00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:38,960
Speaker 7: A lot of people don't even think.

1267
00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:40,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean like the truth.

1268
00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:43,840
Speaker 4: How better can you honor that victim than by acknowledging

1269
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:46,800
Speaker 4: what's true and what really happened to her. To do that,

1270
00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:48,920
Speaker 4: you need to talk about Ridi Gade, and you need

1271
00:59:48,920 --> 00:59:51,320
Speaker 4: to talk about how justice went awry. And if you

1272
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:53,600
Speaker 4: don't talk about those things, you'd be surprised in them

1273
00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:56,320
Speaker 4: articles that come out, even just this last few weeks

1274
00:59:56,320 --> 00:59:59,200
Speaker 4: that will be like Amanda and Raphaela and a third man,

1275
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:04,000
Speaker 4: you mean, the one God did it.

1276
01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:07,040
Speaker 6: It's so frustrating. It's so frustrating.

1277
01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:09,760
Speaker 2: I was telling Lola before we started this, I was

1278
01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:11,960
Speaker 2: involved in an accident that wasn't my fault, and the

1279
01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:14,360
Speaker 2: insurance company just made up my fault and they won't

1280
01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:16,680
Speaker 2: listen to me, and I can be driving down the

1281
01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:19,040
Speaker 2: highway and just scream at them for hours. Do you

1282
01:00:19,080 --> 01:00:21,479
Speaker 2: still do that, Amanda? Do you still just like fight

1283
01:00:21,560 --> 01:00:24,080
Speaker 2: with everyone in your head whenever you're driving anywhere?

1284
01:00:24,760 --> 01:00:25,560
Speaker 7: I do.

1285
01:00:26,040 --> 01:00:26,280
Speaker 8: Yeah.

1286
01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:30,160
Speaker 7: I don't take well to being gas lit. Yeah, I

1287
01:00:30,280 --> 01:00:30,760
Speaker 7: just don't.

1288
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:34,360
Speaker 8: It's a bone that I can't put down like it's

1289
01:00:34,440 --> 01:00:38,000
Speaker 8: just I nod to an infinity and it matters to

1290
01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:40,840
Speaker 8: me that we acknowledge what is true. And if the

1291
01:00:41,120 --> 01:00:44,920
Speaker 8: accident is not your fault, it's not your fault, Like,

1292
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:47,800
Speaker 8: don't tell me it's my fault. I actually had a

1293
01:00:47,840 --> 01:00:51,520
Speaker 8: really interesting example of that in a car with the

1294
01:00:51,560 --> 01:00:55,360
Speaker 8: insurance company where I pulled into like a parking lot

1295
01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:57,160
Speaker 8: to park and I was stopped.

1296
01:00:57,240 --> 01:00:59,200
Speaker 7: I was like waiting, there are people walking.

1297
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:02,400
Speaker 8: I was stopped, and someone who was in a parking

1298
01:01:02,440 --> 01:01:05,240
Speaker 8: spot turned on their car and then backed their car

1299
01:01:05,440 --> 01:01:05,880
Speaker 8: into me.

1300
01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:09,440
Speaker 7: So not only did I have right away, I was actually.

1301
01:01:09,200 --> 01:01:12,960
Speaker 8: Stopped, and the insurance company was trying to say that

1302
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:17,560
Speaker 8: I was ten percent at fault for being hit while

1303
01:01:17,600 --> 01:01:20,200
Speaker 8: I was stopped and I was in the right of

1304
01:01:20,240 --> 01:01:23,600
Speaker 8: way position, and I was like, first of all, none

1305
01:01:23,640 --> 01:01:26,120
Speaker 8: of that is my fault, and second of all, how

1306
01:01:26,120 --> 01:01:28,760
Speaker 8: do you even come up with ten percent?

1307
01:01:29,040 --> 01:01:33,240
Speaker 7: Like what do you? You are insane? It's so mad?

1308
01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:34,320
Speaker 7: Do give it?

1309
01:01:35,640 --> 01:01:38,440
Speaker 4: I mean, it's about it's about incentive structures for that right,

1310
01:01:38,480 --> 01:01:41,600
Speaker 4: The insurance agent's incentive is to just claw at any

1311
01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:44,800
Speaker 4: small percentage that they can put onto the other person's

1312
01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:47,880
Speaker 4: insurance because their incentive is to make as much money

1313
01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:50,880
Speaker 4: as they can for their company, of course, to reduce costs.

1314
01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:53,880
Speaker 2: Right just the right or wrong kind of thing just

1315
01:01:53,960 --> 01:01:56,600
Speaker 2: brings out the worst and everyone, I guess, but you

1316
01:01:56,640 --> 01:01:59,320
Speaker 2: were saying Piers Morgan should do more empathy work.

1317
01:01:59,400 --> 01:02:01,000
Speaker 6: What does that mean exactly to you?

1318
01:02:01,040 --> 01:02:01,280
Speaker 3: Guys?

1319
01:02:01,880 --> 01:02:04,720
Speaker 6: Find that? What does people learning that look like?

1320
01:02:05,560 --> 01:02:08,120
Speaker 8: I mean, I don't know what Pierce Morgan has got

1321
01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:10,840
Speaker 8: going on in his life. He's a provocateur, that's his stick.

1322
01:02:11,080 --> 01:02:16,400
Speaker 8: So the conversations I've been having most recently with professional storytellers,

1323
01:02:16,440 --> 01:02:19,080
Speaker 8: and I look at journalists as professional storytellers. I look

1324
01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:22,240
Speaker 8: at prosecutors as professional storytellers, and I look at people

1325
01:02:22,320 --> 01:02:26,240
Speaker 8: in Hollywood who are professional storytellers. There is this tendency

1326
01:02:26,320 --> 01:02:30,400
Speaker 8: to feel like you are entitled, in that position to

1327
01:02:30,760 --> 01:02:35,240
Speaker 8: someone's worst the worst thing that happened to someone, and

1328
01:02:35,400 --> 01:02:37,120
Speaker 8: you get to tell it the way you want it

1329
01:02:37,400 --> 01:02:39,160
Speaker 8: to tell it, and you can define who they are

1330
01:02:39,240 --> 01:02:41,560
Speaker 8: the way you want to. You can project whatever you

1331
01:02:41,600 --> 01:02:45,439
Speaker 8: want onto them. It's your story to tell. And I'm

1332
01:02:45,560 --> 01:02:48,360
Speaker 8: pushing back against that to say, the person who is

1333
01:02:48,400 --> 01:02:51,080
Speaker 8: at the center of story, who is bearing the reputational

1334
01:02:51,200 --> 01:02:55,840
Speaker 8: and emotional costs of that storytelling should be considered and

1335
01:02:55,960 --> 01:02:59,840
Speaker 8: for a long time, professional storytellers and people who are

1336
01:03:00,200 --> 01:03:03,480
Speaker 8: platformed and who have a lot going on, who have

1337
01:03:03,600 --> 01:03:09,320
Speaker 8: great resources, and they don't think about how their storytelling

1338
01:03:09,520 --> 01:03:12,400
Speaker 8: has an actual impact on a real person's life.

1339
01:03:12,720 --> 01:03:14,880
Speaker 1: I'm going to shout out my mom real fast, because

1340
01:03:15,080 --> 01:03:19,360
Speaker 1: so much of her work now is advocating for there

1341
01:03:19,400 --> 01:03:22,040
Speaker 1: to be some kind of ethics guidelines for people who

1342
01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:25,280
Speaker 1: are telling the stories of survivors or people who've been

1343
01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:27,680
Speaker 1: threating anything, or even just people on reality TV who

1344
01:03:27,720 --> 01:03:30,760
Speaker 1: are often made to look like they've said things they

1345
01:03:30,760 --> 01:03:33,840
Speaker 1: haven't said and they are these like horrible, awful people

1346
01:03:33,880 --> 01:03:36,120
Speaker 1: when they're just it's just edited that way, and that

1347
01:03:36,200 --> 01:03:39,440
Speaker 1: can be genuinely very traumatizing for people, and like destroy

1348
01:03:39,520 --> 01:03:41,520
Speaker 1: their reputation and there's real.

1349
01:03:41,720 --> 01:03:45,480
Speaker 8: Their whole story and personhood and identity is turned into

1350
01:03:45,520 --> 01:03:47,600
Speaker 8: something else and they have no say in it.

1351
01:03:47,640 --> 01:03:50,080
Speaker 6: But they signed the paperwork, so who cares.

1352
01:03:50,120 --> 01:03:52,440
Speaker 1: Guys, it's not it, but it's not fair, right there

1353
01:03:52,480 --> 01:03:57,240
Speaker 1: are no consequences for a company or a media person

1354
01:03:57,440 --> 01:04:01,000
Speaker 1: or source or whatever who essentially ruins somebody's life like that.

1355
01:04:01,120 --> 01:04:04,040
Speaker 1: Right now, there's no recourse if you signed the contract

1356
01:04:04,040 --> 01:04:07,680
Speaker 1: that said that you're fucked. Yeah, so what would you

1357
01:04:08,520 --> 01:04:12,400
Speaker 1: what would you guys say to someone who's struggling with

1358
01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:15,280
Speaker 1: knowing what to believe and what not to believe? Do

1359
01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:18,920
Speaker 1: you have any words of wisdom about this case or

1360
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:19,880
Speaker 1: in general?

1361
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:21,200
Speaker 7: Okay, right, in general?

1362
01:04:21,760 --> 01:04:25,400
Speaker 8: It's a difficult thing because ultimately, not everyone can be

1363
01:04:25,400 --> 01:04:27,800
Speaker 8: an expert in everything, and so like you do have

1364
01:04:27,840 --> 01:04:30,920
Speaker 8: to rely on authority and other people to have a

1365
01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:33,280
Speaker 8: sense of what the truth is. I think that my

1366
01:04:33,400 --> 01:04:37,280
Speaker 8: biggest impulse is to tell people if you feel like

1367
01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:42,360
Speaker 8: you are being told that someone is a monster, Like,

1368
01:04:42,440 --> 01:04:45,760
Speaker 8: if that's the story that's being told to you, for me,

1369
01:04:45,840 --> 01:04:48,520
Speaker 8: a little red flag goes off that I'm like, why

1370
01:04:48,560 --> 01:04:51,480
Speaker 8: are they framing this human being as a lesson in

1371
01:04:51,520 --> 01:04:54,560
Speaker 8: a less than human status? Are there things that they

1372
01:04:54,560 --> 01:04:57,200
Speaker 8: aren't telling me? Which isn't to say that like some

1373
01:04:57,240 --> 01:04:59,040
Speaker 8: people have really done horrible things.

1374
01:04:59,120 --> 01:05:02,080
Speaker 6: Y paths exist, Yeah, yeah, for sure.

1375
01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:06,280
Speaker 4: They're rare though, Yeah, true sociopaths are not common. I think, right,

1376
01:05:06,320 --> 01:05:08,600
Speaker 4: the vast majority of people who end up on the

1377
01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:13,400
Speaker 4: news with some negative headline over them are probably people

1378
01:05:13,440 --> 01:05:17,000
Speaker 4: who there's important context to judge their behavior by, right,

1379
01:05:17,200 --> 01:05:20,400
Speaker 4: take someone like Chris Cuomo or something, right, like whatever's

1380
01:05:20,440 --> 01:05:21,760
Speaker 4: going on with him recently.

1381
01:05:22,080 --> 01:05:23,720
Speaker 3: He's not an evil sociopath.

1382
01:05:24,320 --> 01:05:27,000
Speaker 4: You know, He's a guy probably made some bad decisions

1383
01:05:27,040 --> 01:05:28,760
Speaker 4: and probably thought he was doing a good thing in

1384
01:05:28,800 --> 01:05:30,760
Speaker 4: some of the and he's probably got some arguments in

1385
01:05:30,800 --> 01:05:32,800
Speaker 4: his favor, and maybe he was being a good brother

1386
01:05:32,840 --> 01:05:35,560
Speaker 4: and a bad you know, TV host. Maybe those things

1387
01:05:35,600 --> 01:05:38,840
Speaker 4: are true at once. So if you think that if

1388
01:05:38,840 --> 01:05:42,000
Speaker 4: someone is reduced to a character, that's just a good

1389
01:05:42,040 --> 01:05:45,880
Speaker 4: impulse to step back and say, Okay, well probably not.

1390
01:05:46,080 --> 01:05:47,720
Speaker 4: Everyone's more complicated than that.

1391
01:05:47,920 --> 01:05:48,400
Speaker 5: I see that.

1392
01:05:48,360 --> 01:05:54,720
Speaker 1: Happening so much in my life. And the intentions are good, right, Like,

1393
01:05:54,760 --> 01:05:59,280
Speaker 1: the intentions are to center anyone who's been victimized and

1394
01:05:59,720 --> 01:06:03,440
Speaker 1: believe victims, and that is extremely important and well intentioned,

1395
01:06:03,840 --> 01:06:07,520
Speaker 1: but it can cross over into just sort of flattening

1396
01:06:07,960 --> 01:06:12,240
Speaker 1: almost every human who's ever done anything wrong. Yeah, I

1397
01:06:12,240 --> 01:06:16,120
Speaker 1: think that's such a dangerous path to go down. You know,

1398
01:06:16,200 --> 01:06:18,800
Speaker 1: most of us will probably not have Amanda's story. Most

1399
01:06:18,840 --> 01:06:21,600
Speaker 1: of us, it will probably not get to that extreme

1400
01:06:21,680 --> 01:06:25,520
Speaker 1: of a place. But like, ultimately, we've all made mistakes,

1401
01:06:25,520 --> 01:06:28,120
Speaker 1: and some of them are on the internet, and you know,

1402
01:06:28,360 --> 01:06:30,560
Speaker 1: we might say something one time that we really regret

1403
01:06:30,680 --> 01:06:32,760
Speaker 1: and it comes out and like we could be the

1404
01:06:32,760 --> 01:06:35,480
Speaker 1: person on the other end of that, So why not

1405
01:06:36,040 --> 01:06:38,040
Speaker 1: why not just think a little bit harder about it

1406
01:06:38,080 --> 01:06:39,960
Speaker 1: and not jump to that conclusion.

1407
01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:40,120
Speaker 7: You know.

1408
01:06:40,320 --> 01:06:40,920
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1409
01:06:41,080 --> 01:06:42,880
Speaker 4: The other thing I would say is, and this is

1410
01:06:42,920 --> 01:06:46,440
Speaker 4: something I learned from Amanda, is that I think compassion

1411
01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:50,760
Speaker 4: is a really important part of seeing the truth, because

1412
01:06:51,040 --> 01:06:54,000
Speaker 4: your judgment almost always gets in the way of seeing

1413
01:06:54,000 --> 01:06:57,040
Speaker 4: what's actually true. Right, and when you take things like

1414
01:06:57,440 --> 01:06:59,200
Speaker 4: free will into account, if you want to go down

1415
01:06:59,240 --> 01:06:59,960
Speaker 4: that rabbit hole.

1416
01:07:00,040 --> 01:07:01,120
Speaker 5: Oh, I love that all the whole.

1417
01:07:01,200 --> 01:07:04,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, even just on the level of all

1418
01:07:04,240 --> 01:07:07,000
Speaker 4: the people that amandam in prison had been victims of

1419
01:07:07,040 --> 01:07:10,280
Speaker 4: crime and had faced various crime related traumas before they

1420
01:07:10,360 --> 01:07:14,120
Speaker 4: themselves are perpetrators of crime. Have compassion for them? How

1421
01:07:14,160 --> 01:07:16,000
Speaker 4: did they get into that shitty scenario?

1422
01:07:16,440 --> 01:07:16,640
Speaker 6: Right?

1423
01:07:16,720 --> 01:07:17,000
Speaker 3: Right?

1424
01:07:17,040 --> 01:07:19,320
Speaker 1: I think that's an incredibly important point, and it's something

1425
01:07:19,360 --> 01:07:21,120
Speaker 1: I'd talk about a lot and can get up on

1426
01:07:21,120 --> 01:07:21,880
Speaker 1: my high horse about.

1427
01:07:21,880 --> 01:07:22,600
Speaker 5: But I think you're right.

1428
01:07:22,600 --> 01:07:25,440
Speaker 1: The vast majority of people who are committing crimes or

1429
01:07:25,520 --> 01:07:27,320
Speaker 1: even just like making social.

1430
01:07:27,000 --> 01:07:29,800
Speaker 5: Mistakes or whatever, there's stuff that's.

1431
01:07:29,640 --> 01:07:31,880
Speaker 1: Been going on with them that led them to that

1432
01:07:31,960 --> 01:07:33,280
Speaker 1: place that we might not be.

1433
01:07:33,400 --> 01:07:36,160
Speaker 4: Oh, I mean even if just their brain is deeply

1434
01:07:36,400 --> 01:07:39,160
Speaker 4: broken or sick in some way. Yeah, I look at

1435
01:07:39,200 --> 01:07:43,400
Speaker 4: someone like Jeffrey Dahmer or Hitler say, and I think, Man,

1436
01:07:43,520 --> 01:07:46,920
Speaker 4: I am so glad I'm not Hitler. I'm so glad

1437
01:07:46,960 --> 01:07:49,520
Speaker 4: I don't have that brain. I do and I were

1438
01:07:49,600 --> 01:07:52,720
Speaker 4: born with that brain. Yeah, it suck the worst to

1439
01:07:52,800 --> 01:07:55,520
Speaker 4: be born with that person's brain. You don't want that

1440
01:07:55,760 --> 01:07:59,320
Speaker 4: pity the people who are born with psychopathy, for sure.

1441
01:07:59,160 --> 01:08:02,880
Speaker 1: Right, for sure, wanting to protect society from people doesn't

1442
01:08:02,920 --> 01:08:07,200
Speaker 1: have to be the same thing as assuming that every

1443
01:08:07,280 --> 01:08:09,240
Speaker 1: I mean go ahead and say Hitler was.

1444
01:08:09,240 --> 01:08:09,720
Speaker 5: A bad person.

1445
01:08:09,920 --> 01:08:13,240
Speaker 1: But for most other people who commit crimes or whatever,

1446
01:08:13,520 --> 01:08:15,400
Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be the same thing as assuming

1447
01:08:15,440 --> 01:08:17,840
Speaker 1: that one crime or one mistake or whatever is all

1448
01:08:17,960 --> 01:08:19,839
Speaker 1: encompassing of that person's entire character.

1449
01:08:20,080 --> 01:08:22,479
Speaker 6: There's a book called So You've been publicly shamed.

1450
01:08:22,640 --> 01:08:23,639
Speaker 7: That's really They.

1451
01:08:23,520 --> 01:08:25,360
Speaker 5: Have John Ronson On, Right, you have John Ross.

1452
01:08:25,520 --> 01:08:27,479
Speaker 7: I love John Ronson so good.

1453
01:08:27,760 --> 01:08:29,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, I love that that.

1454
01:08:29,240 --> 01:08:32,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's incredibly important to talk about. Okay, guys, well,

1455
01:08:32,600 --> 01:08:35,800
Speaker 1: this has been an absolute delight. I surely would love

1456
01:08:35,840 --> 01:08:38,040
Speaker 1: to know if there's anything else that you want people

1457
01:08:38,120 --> 01:08:42,160
Speaker 1: to come away with or just would like to say no.

1458
01:08:42,320 --> 01:08:44,759
Speaker 7: I mean, we've had a great converent. We love chatting

1459
01:08:44,760 --> 01:08:45,000
Speaker 7: with you.

1460
01:08:45,080 --> 01:08:47,360
Speaker 8: This is a really interesting subject, and I'm so glad

1461
01:08:47,400 --> 01:08:49,880
Speaker 8: that you are talking about it, just in various different ways,

1462
01:08:49,920 --> 01:08:53,720
Speaker 8: because it is a real part of human connection at

1463
01:08:53,720 --> 01:08:55,880
Speaker 8: all times, and it's always getting in the way of

1464
01:08:55,960 --> 01:08:59,320
Speaker 8: human connections. So like, let's just be better better to

1465
01:08:59,360 --> 01:09:01,559
Speaker 8: each other by understanding ourselves better.

1466
01:09:01,880 --> 01:09:04,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, I would say that it's good for all humans

1467
01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:07,719
Speaker 4: to be aware of this stuff. It will improve every

1468
01:09:07,760 --> 01:09:10,400
Speaker 4: relationship you have and every social interaction you have if

1469
01:09:10,439 --> 01:09:13,640
Speaker 4: you're more tuned to the ways your brain fails to

1470
01:09:13,680 --> 01:09:18,559
Speaker 4: see reality clearly. But there's a higher burden on certain people.

1471
01:09:19,080 --> 01:09:22,520
Speaker 4: If you work in law enforcement, if you're a prosecutor,

1472
01:09:22,960 --> 01:09:26,960
Speaker 4: I expect you to go under more rigorous cognitive bias training.

1473
01:09:26,920 --> 01:09:28,920
Speaker 3: Than your average person. Yes, and your.

1474
01:09:28,800 --> 01:09:31,759
Speaker 4: Average person might benefit from just getting into fewer fights

1475
01:09:31,760 --> 01:09:35,160
Speaker 4: with their spouse by recognizing their confirmation bias. Right, But

1476
01:09:35,320 --> 01:09:37,640
Speaker 4: somebody's life is on the line when it comes to

1477
01:09:37,680 --> 01:09:41,920
Speaker 4: a prosecutor going after an innocent person. So for those people,

1478
01:09:42,520 --> 01:09:45,759
Speaker 4: even for doctors, I think who are diagnosing medical conditions

1479
01:09:45,800 --> 01:09:49,040
Speaker 4: like there are certain roles in society where cognitive bias

1480
01:09:49,120 --> 01:09:53,120
Speaker 4: training is crucial and we should be thinking about how

1481
01:09:53,120 --> 01:09:57,800
Speaker 4: to incorporate that into our licensing and standards for such professions.

1482
01:09:57,880 --> 01:10:00,640
Speaker 1: Absolutely, when someone's fate is in your hand, you have

1483
01:10:00,720 --> 01:10:04,040
Speaker 1: to take that responsibility seriously, and we don't enough right now.

1484
01:10:05,240 --> 01:10:06,799
Speaker 5: Guys, this has been awesome.

1485
01:10:08,880 --> 01:10:09,679
Speaker 3: Thanks so much.

1486
01:10:09,920 --> 01:10:13,080
Speaker 5: Can you tell us your social media and your podcast again.

1487
01:10:13,360 --> 01:10:15,880
Speaker 8: Our podcast is called Labyrinths, so you can find it

1488
01:10:15,920 --> 01:10:19,160
Speaker 8: wherever you do your podcasting thing. You can find out

1489
01:10:19,200 --> 01:10:22,120
Speaker 8: all about our work at Knox Robinson dot com. Our

1490
01:10:22,200 --> 01:10:26,240
Speaker 8: podcast is independent and so we have a Patreon. It's

1491
01:10:26,320 --> 01:10:31,320
Speaker 8: patreon dot com slash Knox Robinson. My Twitter handle is

1492
01:10:31,360 --> 01:10:35,680
Speaker 8: at Amanda Knox. His is at man Underbridge. There's a

1493
01:10:35,760 --> 01:10:39,479
Speaker 8: little funny story about that. My Instagram is at a

1494
01:10:39,560 --> 01:10:43,320
Speaker 8: mamak ox and his is at mccarbon awesome.

1495
01:10:43,320 --> 01:10:46,479
Speaker 4: We are currently in the midst of releasing a mini

1496
01:10:46,560 --> 01:10:53,400
Speaker 4: series about psilocybin, mushrooms and the psychedelic My Baby.

1497
01:10:53,640 --> 01:10:54,800
Speaker 7: We love mushrooms.

1498
01:10:56,400 --> 01:10:58,559
Speaker 1: Well, have a wonderful day, guys, and thank you so

1499
01:10:58,640 --> 01:10:59,360
Speaker 1: much for coming on.

1500
01:10:59,560 --> 01:11:03,000
Speaker 7: Of course, thanks for having us having a day, go bye.

1501
01:11:04,040 --> 01:11:06,960
Speaker 1: I feel like that interview speaks for itself. I'm really

1502
01:11:07,360 --> 01:11:10,120
Speaker 1: grateful that they came on. And now my question to you, Megan,

1503
01:11:10,280 --> 01:11:14,160
Speaker 1: is which cognitive biases do you think or if you

1504
01:11:14,240 --> 01:11:16,640
Speaker 1: just had to pick one you're the most guilty of.

1505
01:11:16,920 --> 01:11:20,840
Speaker 2: I would say I'm most guilty of attentional bias, which

1506
01:11:20,880 --> 01:11:23,880
Speaker 2: is what it is, giving a lot of attention to

1507
01:11:24,120 --> 01:11:27,920
Speaker 2: one thing and ignoring other information about the same topic.

1508
01:11:28,080 --> 01:11:30,880
Speaker 2: So I think for the past two years pandemic really

1509
01:11:30,880 --> 01:11:33,120
Speaker 2: has not helped. But I've just been looking at the

1510
01:11:33,200 --> 01:11:35,479
Speaker 2: negative and it's been.

1511
01:11:35,360 --> 01:11:37,400
Speaker 6: Growing and growing and growing, and.

1512
01:11:37,479 --> 01:11:41,479
Speaker 2: I need to start paying attention to other parts of

1513
01:11:41,720 --> 01:11:42,839
Speaker 2: the news in life.

1514
01:11:43,439 --> 01:11:45,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally, I get that. I mean I think we

1515
01:11:45,360 --> 01:11:49,080
Speaker 1: all do that in varying contexts. You can only fit

1516
01:11:49,120 --> 01:11:50,200
Speaker 1: so much in your brain at once.

1517
01:11:50,439 --> 01:11:51,639
Speaker 5: That's why we take these shortcuts.

1518
01:11:51,720 --> 01:11:56,040
Speaker 1: It's too much, it's too many things to be able

1519
01:11:56,040 --> 01:11:58,439
Speaker 1: to like, always do it in a healthy way, always

1520
01:11:58,439 --> 01:12:00,680
Speaker 1: be absorbing information in a balance, in healthy way. And

1521
01:12:00,680 --> 01:12:03,000
Speaker 1: that's why we have to work very hard to overcome

1522
01:12:03,040 --> 01:12:06,439
Speaker 1: those short cuts. Mine, if you'd like to know, please,

1523
01:12:06,479 --> 01:12:09,880
Speaker 1: what is it the one I've noticed in particular in myself,

1524
01:12:10,080 --> 01:12:12,679
Speaker 1: especially in the past couple of years I've been trying

1525
01:12:12,680 --> 01:12:14,960
Speaker 1: to be more aware of it is my in group bias,

1526
01:12:15,680 --> 01:12:18,679
Speaker 1: which is the tendency for people to give preferential treatment

1527
01:12:18,800 --> 01:12:21,640
Speaker 1: to people who belong in the same group that they do,

1528
01:12:21,720 --> 01:12:24,320
Speaker 1: whether it's like the same church, the same social group,

1529
01:12:24,360 --> 01:12:27,760
Speaker 1: the same age range or subculture, or whatever the fuck

1530
01:12:27,800 --> 01:12:30,040
Speaker 1: it is. I feel like this is maybe one of

1531
01:12:30,040 --> 01:12:32,679
Speaker 1: the big biases of our time. We tend to filter

1532
01:12:32,880 --> 01:12:35,680
Speaker 1: out the like positive characteristics of people who are not

1533
01:12:35,760 --> 01:12:38,040
Speaker 1: in our group, and we tend to focus on the

1534
01:12:38,080 --> 01:12:40,600
Speaker 1: positive characteristics of people in our group. We tend to

1535
01:12:40,680 --> 01:12:42,760
Speaker 1: side take the sides of the people who are in

1536
01:12:42,800 --> 01:12:45,680
Speaker 1: our group. And the reality is that everyone is a

1537
01:12:45,760 --> 01:12:48,840
Speaker 1: human and we're all doing the same things all the time,

1538
01:12:49,240 --> 01:12:52,800
Speaker 1: and it just logically doesn't make sense to do that.

1539
01:12:52,960 --> 01:12:57,679
Speaker 1: But it is a survival mechanism that has evolved over many,

1540
01:12:57,720 --> 01:12:58,240
Speaker 1: many years.

1541
01:12:58,320 --> 01:13:00,240
Speaker 7: Yeah, some might say even thirty years.

1542
01:13:00,720 --> 01:13:07,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, like maybe even forty.

1543
01:13:08,280 --> 01:13:09,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, no, I get that.

1544
01:13:09,840 --> 01:13:12,759
Speaker 2: Actually, something in that vein just happened to me where

1545
01:13:13,360 --> 01:13:18,240
Speaker 2: a friend did something that I found incredibly offensive, but

1546
01:13:19,080 --> 01:13:21,400
Speaker 2: because it's my friend and she sent it to the

1547
01:13:21,520 --> 01:13:23,800
Speaker 2: group text, Like, can you believe people thought this was

1548
01:13:23,800 --> 01:13:27,320
Speaker 2: offensive and everyone's like, no, that's crazy, You're fine, and.

1549
01:13:27,240 --> 01:13:30,720
Speaker 6: I was just like, yeah, ah, they're insane, But I

1550
01:13:30,840 --> 01:13:31,680
Speaker 6: noticed that I did that.

1551
01:13:33,360 --> 01:13:35,240
Speaker 5: You know, one thing I will pride myself on. I

1552
01:13:35,280 --> 01:13:36,800
Speaker 5: feel like you would call it out.

1553
01:13:36,880 --> 01:13:38,840
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm too much of a caller outer.

1554
01:13:39,560 --> 01:13:42,960
Speaker 1: Yeah maybe even where I like feel like I can't

1555
01:13:43,000 --> 01:13:44,559
Speaker 1: just be silent and I have to say something to

1556
01:13:44,560 --> 01:13:46,960
Speaker 1: the point where it's like obnoxious, and it's like everything

1557
01:13:46,960 --> 01:13:48,599
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be a conversation, Lola.

1558
01:13:49,000 --> 01:13:50,840
Speaker 2: You know what, it's the black and white thing. We

1559
01:13:50,920 --> 01:13:52,880
Speaker 2: just have to find the easy metal. Because I should

1560
01:13:52,880 --> 01:13:56,080
Speaker 2: have said something you could now, yeah, that wouldn't be weird. Hey,

1561
01:13:56,120 --> 01:13:58,639
Speaker 2: I've been thinking every day about a joke you made

1562
01:13:58,640 --> 01:13:59,280
Speaker 2: a month ago.

1563
01:14:02,080 --> 01:14:04,000
Speaker 6: What's to come this year? I'm excited.

1564
01:14:04,439 --> 01:14:05,720
Speaker 5: I'm hoping to not be.

1565
01:14:05,760 --> 01:14:10,599
Speaker 1: In constant pain. And yeah, that's almost like excitement. Totally, totally, totally, totally.

1566
01:14:11,080 --> 01:14:12,320
Speaker 6: Thank you so much for listening.

1567
01:14:12,520 --> 01:14:15,280
Speaker 2: We can't wait to see you next week. Remember to

1568
01:14:15,360 --> 01:14:18,599
Speaker 2: follow your gut, watch out for red bags, and never

1569
01:14:18,840 --> 01:14:19,640
Speaker 2: ever trust me.

1570
01:14:20,000 --> 01:14:24,479
Speaker 5: Bye.