Speaker 1: But honestly, like you know, when Jonathan and I started
Speaker 1: this podcast and he wanted to talk about energy and
Speaker 1: all this stuff I did, I turned my nose up
Speaker 1: at it. I was like, that's not what I'm trained
Speaker 1: to do. I'm a scientist. I don't want to be
Speaker 1: like spouting ridiculous theories and that's crazy. But you know,
Speaker 1: a combination of sort of personal exploration and kind of
Speaker 1: variety of interesting medical things happened that in many cases,
Speaker 1: Western science was not able to provide support for or
Speaker 1: an understanding and started literally on a whim exploring some
Speaker 1: more alternative methods, which honestly are not so alternative anymore.
Speaker 1: But you know, when I first started dipping a toe
Speaker 1: into this and it sort of made me think, gosh,
Speaker 1: there is more than what Western medicine can offer. And
Speaker 1: in the same way, there is more than what Western
Speaker 1: philosophy and Western rationalism can offer when we're understanding larger
Speaker 1: components of our functioning, as you know, human beings, not
Speaker 1: human doings.
Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to the Psychology Podcast, where we explore
Speaker 2: the depths of human potential today. It's great to have
Speaker 2: Maam Biolic and Jonathan Cohen on the show. Miam is
Speaker 2: best known for her lead role as Blossom in the
Speaker 2: early nineteen nineties NBC television sitcom Blossom. She's also well
Speaker 2: known for playing Amy Farroh Follower in the critically acclaimed
Speaker 2: CBS comedy The Big Bang Theory. She also served as
Speaker 2: host of Jeopardy for two seasons. Bialla holds a BS
Speaker 2: and PhD in neuroscience from UCLA and hosts a popular
Speaker 2: mental health podcast, miam Biollics Breakdown. Today, we also have
Speaker 2: Jonathan Cohen on the show. Jonathan is co creator and
Speaker 2: executive producer of Maambiolics Breakdown, as well as a writer, poet, father,
Speaker 2: and futurist who imagines and designs new applications of technology.
Speaker 2: With over two decades of training in mindfulness and healing,
Speaker 2: Cohen seeks to find ways to fuse storytelling and some
Speaker 2: Mattics experience. Cohen and Bollock met ten years ago at
Speaker 2: a toddler birthday party and began a connection fueled by
Speaker 2: shifting the collective understanding of mental health and emotional well being.
Speaker 2: It is my delight and pleasure to shine a spotlight
Speaker 2: on both of them today as we discussed lots of
Speaker 2: areas of mutual interest, so that further ado, I bring
Speaker 2: you Maam Biollock and Jonathan Cohen. Is so great to
Speaker 2: have you on the Psychology Podcast.
Speaker 3: Thank you, nice to be here, Thank you.
Speaker 4: For having us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, in some ways, this we can do this as
Speaker 2: just a continuation of a conversation we've already begun. I
Speaker 2: was recently.
Speaker 1: Yes, we had you on Miam Bioleck's breakdown, and so
Speaker 1: excited to get to talk to you more.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I'm so excited. Where to begin? Where to begin?
Speaker 2: First of all, how do you two know each other?
Speaker 2: Where did that come from?
Speaker 1: So Jonathan and I met. We have children who are
Speaker 1: the same age, and we had mutual friends and when
Speaker 1: our kids were toddlers, we literally were introduced kind of socially.
Speaker 1: Jonathan had gone to graduate school at the American Film
Speaker 1: Institute and he and I sort of connected around that,
Speaker 1: and then we sort of lost touch. This was in
Speaker 1: the days before cell phones were really an active part
Speaker 1: of lives. So he went back to Toronto and then
Speaker 1: we reconnected. We had both been divorced and our kids
Speaker 1: were older, and we started this podcast right around gosh,
Speaker 1: the start of the pandemic. And yeah, Jonathan is in
Speaker 1: many ways, the business and kind of creative innovative side
Speaker 1: of Miami Bi Alex breakdown and I read the books
Speaker 1: and do their research and show up and we do
Speaker 1: our best together in this podcast.
Speaker 2: What do you try to do with the podcast? What's
Speaker 2: like the main mission?
Speaker 4: I think it's changed right.
Speaker 1: Then, Yeah, I mean, I think when we started, a
Speaker 1: lot of people were not talking about mental health mental wellness.
Speaker 1: It was still sort of a dirty word, you know,
Speaker 1: to sort of say like I go to therapy, or
Speaker 1: it's an integral part of my life, or I have
Speaker 1: a variety of symptoms that tend to group under this
Speaker 1: DSM diagnosis. It was still really kind of like whispered
Speaker 1: in many cases. And at the beginning of a global pandemic,
Speaker 1: we just we realized how many people were lacking basic
Speaker 1: information about what anxiety looks like, what anticipatory anxiety is like,
Speaker 1: how that would affect us.
Speaker 3: So that's sort of where we started.
Speaker 1: But you know, as Jonathan can talk about, we sort
Speaker 1: of saw an evolution, you know, in how we talk
Speaker 1: to people, and some of the themes that started being
Speaker 1: highlighted no matter what we were talking about, has in
Speaker 1: many ways become more of the thrust of our podcast.
Speaker 3: Now, Jonathan, you can speak to that if you want.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, it feels like there was something that
Speaker 4: we were connected by before we started the podcast. There
Speaker 4: was a bit of a mysticism, there was a synchronicity
Speaker 4: to how we reconnected. We tell the story actually involves
Speaker 4: Michael Singer and Peter Levine in different ways, and through
Speaker 4: the course of both of our lives and through all
Speaker 4: the experts we've spoken to, we've realized that well being,
Speaker 4: however that is defined, has a spiritual component to it.
Speaker 4: There is a connection to something greater than ourselves. That
Speaker 4: is through all the great teachers and it. More and
Speaker 4: more science is catching up to trying to quantify and
Speaker 4: explain why it is that having that connection, that sense
Speaker 4: of wonder awe, a sense of being connected to something
Speaker 4: greater than yourself, has physiological benefits, and so more and
Speaker 4: more of the podcast is looking at that intersection and
Speaker 4: trying to make sense of the things that are not
Speaker 4: immediately under stood by quantifiable science.
Speaker 2: Well, I think this is a topic all of us
Speaker 2: bond over, and I felt like there was definitely overflow
Speaker 2: from our conversation on this topic that we could talk
Speaker 2: about well we should be made we should make it
Speaker 2: very cleer. For I assume everyone knows this, But Miam,
Speaker 2: you have a PhD in neuroscience. Isn't that correct? Correct?
Speaker 3: Yep? I trained.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I was on a TV show, Blossom, from the time
Speaker 1: I was fourteen to nineteen. Then I effectively left the industry.
Speaker 1: I did five years undergrad in neuroscience and Hebrew and
Speaker 1: Jewish studies at UCLA. Then I continued to the doctoral program.
Speaker 1: I studied psycho neeuroendochronology in particular obsessive compulsive disorder and
Speaker 1: the hormones oxytocin and maasappress. And I worked in a
Speaker 1: population of proderually syndrome, which is a genetic syndrome of
Speaker 1: mental retardation. And so that is my training. I'm trained
Speaker 1: as a science communicator. I had my first son in
Speaker 1: grad school, and I took my doctoralhood pregnant with my
Speaker 1: second son, and then I designed a neuroscience curriculum for
Speaker 1: junior high and high school students here in the homeschool
Speaker 1: community in Los Angeles. I did not do a post doc,
Speaker 1: which already sort of puts me on the outskirts of academia,
Speaker 1: and then I ended up you know, working on the
Speaker 1: Big Bang theory while I was still teaching for part
Speaker 1: of that and was on the Big Bank theory for
Speaker 1: nine years.
Speaker 2: And yeah, why did you do the Big Bang theory?
Speaker 2: And was there a point in your life where you
Speaker 2: were thinking, oh, I want to be a professor, I
Speaker 2: want to be a neuroscience researcher. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when I you know, I fell in love with
Speaker 1: science as a high school student. I had an incredible tutor.
Speaker 1: It was my first kind of one on one tutoring experience,
Speaker 1: especially with a female mentor. And what I discovered is
Speaker 1: that while I didn't learn as easily as a lot
Speaker 1: of the kids who were natural math and science students,
Speaker 1: I did have the brain capacity and the organization to
Speaker 1: be able to study science. So, yeah, I want to
Speaker 1: be a research professor. I wanted to study psychiatry. I
Speaker 1: actually wanted to go to med school because that was
Speaker 1: the kind of only way people were talking about mental
Speaker 1: health back in the nineties, was like, go be a
Speaker 1: psychiatrist so you can deal with, you know, people's mental
Speaker 1: health status. It's kind of laughable now because we know
Speaker 1: there's so many other paths, and there are many more
Speaker 1: paths that have opened up, but I did not have
Speaker 1: the grades to go to med school. I just could
Speaker 1: not get an a inorganic chemistry and ended up doing
Speaker 1: a doctoral program.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okaym was the killer.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I was planning on being a research professor,
Speaker 1: but after having my first son, I realized that I
Speaker 1: felt it was much more my calling to be home
Speaker 1: with my kids, especially with my training in neuroscience and
Speaker 1: you know, embryonic development and things like that. It's not
Speaker 1: the choice for everyone, it was the choice for me.
Speaker 1: So that automatically limits your capability as a professor in
Speaker 1: terms of doing a post doc or you know, going
Speaker 1: on to do further research. And we were actually connected
Speaker 1: by Sam Harris, who was a colleague of mine. We
Speaker 1: were in the same neuroscience class for our doctoral program. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so that's how I know Sam. I mean, I also
Speaker 1: know Sam's parents because I worked on a TV show
Speaker 1: that his stepfather produced for my whole childhood. But anyway
Speaker 1: I did, I thought being a teacher was for me.
Speaker 1: The reason that I started auditioning again was I was
Speaker 1: running out of health insurance and I had a toddler
Speaker 1: and I had an infant, and I had no health
Speaker 1: insurance and I figured if I can just get a
Speaker 1: few jobs, I'll get some insurance back to be able
Speaker 1: to take care of my kids. I had never seen
Speaker 1: the Big Bang theory. I did not know that I
Speaker 1: was auditioning to be on you know what was eventually
Speaker 1: the most popular comedy in America.
Speaker 2: You didn't know, You didn't You didn't know that was
Speaker 2: going to blow up like it did.
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, I mean I was.
Speaker 1: I joined in the end of the third season, so
Speaker 1: it was already obviously kind of you know, a lot
Speaker 1: of fans loved it.
Speaker 3: It was a very popular show. Wasn't a TV watcher?
Speaker 1: Still am not, But yeah, I had no idea that
Speaker 1: trying to get a job here or there to try
Speaker 1: and pay for health insurance would you know, turn into
Speaker 1: being made a regular the following season.
Speaker 3: And you know, then that was sort of the trajectory
Speaker 3: of my life.
Speaker 1: And you know, my kids kind of grew up with
Speaker 1: me working on a sitcom in those days, and they're
Speaker 1: now sixteen and nineteen.
Speaker 2: It must have been exciting, exciting times.
Speaker 1: It was very exciting. I mean, playing a neurobiologist was
Speaker 1: really fun. It was fun to put a female face
Speaker 1: on you know, science, and also Melissa Rousch, who played
Speaker 1: Bernadette on The Big Bang Theory, played a microbiologist, so
Speaker 1: I wasn't the only female scientist. But obviously being paired
Speaker 1: with you know, Jim Parsons, you know, is really really
Speaker 1: a powerful, you know sort of figure in terms of well,
Speaker 1: in terms of physics, in terms of popular science. It
Speaker 1: was very special also to play the girlfriend of a
Speaker 1: character who you know, many people viewed as androgynists and
Speaker 1: who shouldn't have relationships. And there was a lot of
Speaker 1: interesting conversations about the spectrum back then, and we never
Speaker 1: laid our characters, and you know, that was really important,
Speaker 1: especially to Bill Prady who co created The Big Bang Theory,
Speaker 1: as he talked about, you know, the various diagnoses that
Speaker 1: people would give those characters. But it was very exciting
Speaker 1: to be part of that. It was also very exciting,
Speaker 1: you know, to be able to still be with my
Speaker 1: kids to a large extent. The sitcom schedules very friendly,
Speaker 1: and obviously parenting was very important to me.
Speaker 3: It, you know, it was the decision I didn't do
Speaker 3: a post.
Speaker 2: Doc, so absolutely. You mentioned you were on a show
Speaker 2: that was produced by Sam Harris's father.
Speaker 1: No, so I was on Blossom Blossom was a production
Speaker 1: of with Thomas Harris.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So Blossom was produced by.
Speaker 2: What a small freaking Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so Sam, you know when I was on Blossom,
Speaker 1: Sam's stepfather Paul Witt, who passed away a few years ago. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Paul Whitt was my boss, and Sam was I think
Speaker 1: in his twenties and finding himself in India at that
Speaker 1: time time. But when we connected in grad school, He's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think you know my mom, And indeed I had
Speaker 1: done some episodes of some shows that his mom had
Speaker 1: produced as well.
Speaker 3: So yeah, kind of a strange small world.
Speaker 2: So I'm going to put in my fan boy hat
Speaker 2: for just a moment. I promised just a moment. But
Speaker 2: as I was researching you, I realized that you were
Speaker 2: on so much of my favorite childhood shows. So you
Speaker 2: were on the Facts of Life, you were on The
Speaker 2: Guy Ever you've been on The Guy, You've been on
Speaker 2: you were on a Michael Jackson.
Speaker 3: Video, Liberia Yes, Liberian Girl.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, do you do you ever
Speaker 2: just reflect on your life so far and how their
Speaker 2: eyed and dynamic it's been.
Speaker 1: I guess yeah, I mean I've definitely had a lot
Speaker 1: of experiences, a lot of different experiences.
Speaker 3: You know, I I.
Speaker 1: Really enjoyed my time in academia and you know, kind
Speaker 1: of missed those days in particular. You know, I think
Speaker 1: that's sort of for a lot of people. We find,
Speaker 1: oh that's where we're comfortable is talking with other people
Speaker 1: intellectually and you know, connecting about that kind of level
Speaker 1: of meaningful things. So, yeah, there's been many aspects to
Speaker 1: my life, and I think, you know, being a parent
Speaker 1: and also making a decision to you know, sort of
Speaker 1: be home and all all that that entailed. It's also
Speaker 1: a huge part of my identity. But yeah, I guess
Speaker 1: I've lived a lot of lives just in this one.
Speaker 2: You sure have. And then Jeopardy. I mean, I'm such
Speaker 2: a fan of Jeopardy. Yeah, what was that like? You
Speaker 2: were both a host and a participant, right.
Speaker 3: No, so I was.
Speaker 1: I was brought on after Alex Trebek passed away. I
Speaker 1: was brought on as a guest a guest host, and
Speaker 1: and then ended up you know, being part of a
Speaker 1: very public conversation and was chosen as the host. I
Speaker 1: was at that time working on a series which ended
Speaker 1: up going three years after but The Big Bang Theory
Speaker 1: and very famously would not cross the picket line in
Speaker 1: the last writers strike, and in that time Ken Jennings
Speaker 1: was selected as host. So you know, it was a
Speaker 1: It was an incredible experience and I think one of
Speaker 1: my most you know, fun and gratifying work opportunities because
Speaker 1: it combined all of the things about me that are
Speaker 1: geeky and nerdy with you know, the ability to try
Speaker 1: and present that information and highlight incredible individuals, you know,
Speaker 1: with with unbelievable knowledge you know of subjects that many
Speaker 1: of us could not hope to master.
Speaker 3: One category of.
Speaker 2: I thought, for some reason, there was one episode where
Speaker 2: you actually were a contestant.
Speaker 3: No, we did.
Speaker 1: I think an episode of Blossom had me as a
Speaker 1: contestant on Jeopardy, Like we did a Blossom episode. I
Speaker 1: think it was yeah, so yeah, that was from that
Speaker 1: was like a dream sequence in a Blossom episode.
Speaker 3: But no, I actually don't excel. I don't excel at Jeopardy.
Speaker 1: People are like, oh, you're so smart, and like it's
Speaker 1: not about that, And there's people far far smarter than I.
Speaker 1: And you know, the kind of recall and you know,
Speaker 1: as as you can probably speak to the kind of
Speaker 1: information recall and storage of information that that individuals who
Speaker 1: excel on Jeopardy have.
Speaker 3: That's that's not something that I have.
Speaker 1: I know, you know a lot of specific things about
Speaker 1: some specific categories. I do really well, and like anything
Speaker 1: relating to Hebrew language, you know, nearest languages and cultures,
Speaker 1: things like that, all things Middle East historical and liturgical.
Speaker 1: But yeah, my neuroscience knowledge is also you know, it's
Speaker 1: it's pretty narrow. So I'm not really like a oh
Speaker 1: I do amazing on Jeopardy kind of person.
Speaker 2: Okay, fair enough. Yeah, you said you're really interested in
Speaker 2: Jewish studies, right, are you related to I am?
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm not going to be like, yeah, on my
Speaker 1: dad's side, he was a very famous poet. Many people
Speaker 1: call him the you know, the Shakespeare of Israel or
Speaker 1: the poet Lauriate of Israel. There's a Bolick Street in
Speaker 1: you know, most every major city in Israel. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I grew up with that as sort of part of
Speaker 1: I guess, you know, our heritage.
Speaker 2: That's so that's pretty cool, pretty cool Jeopardy trivia. Now,
Speaker 2: so both of you, Jonathan, I would problems to bring
Speaker 2: you back in here, buddy, but both of you really
Speaker 2: do bond over the so both of you are interested
Speaker 2: in science, and you really can get into the nerdiness
Speaker 2: with me, but you're also into what perhaps science could
Speaker 2: never prove or could never show evidence for. And I
Speaker 2: was wondering how you reconcile your interest in both of
Speaker 2: those things, because you don't often see I mean, I
Speaker 2: am like that too, but you don't often see many
Speaker 2: people like us who who have a real passion for
Speaker 2: both these things.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I can speak to that first and
Speaker 3: then hands it over to Jonathan.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm a person of faith, you know, so
Speaker 1: that already is kind of considered curious that I'm a
Speaker 1: scientist who's also a person of faith. And you know,
Speaker 1: my understanding of divine things and things outside of our
Speaker 1: realm are not significantly different from any intellectual conversation or scientific,
Speaker 1: you know, conversation about the existence of something greater than ourselves.
Speaker 1: I always joke that my kids say I'm cheating and
Speaker 1: I don't really believe in God, because the God that
Speaker 1: I believe in is the God of gravity and nature
Speaker 1: and awe and wonder and you know, all of the
Speaker 1: laws that govern the material world that we can experience
Speaker 1: with a sprinkling of you know, an understanding that not
Speaker 1: everything that we can feel is quantifiable. Jonathan is much
Speaker 1: more on the healer side of things. I'm much more
Speaker 1: on the science side of things.
Speaker 3: But yeah, I can let Jonathan speak to sort of
Speaker 3: where those intersect for us.
Speaker 4: I've always felt that the pure materialists are missing something crucial.
Speaker 4: But I have always been seeking the people who understand
Speaker 4: heart science to bridge that gap, because I believe that
Speaker 4: the heart scientists can explain it. Just most of them don't,
Speaker 4: or aren't curious, or are closed off in a way
Speaker 4: that they haven't had the experiences that open their minds
Speaker 4: and have shown them firsthand that there is more to
Speaker 4: life than what can easily be explained. And so I'm
Speaker 4: just fascinated by the people who want to explore the
Speaker 4: heart problem of consciousness, or who are interested in extra
Speaker 4: sensory abilities, or who don't dismiss the somewhat supernatural by
Speaker 4: you know, as we had with jeffre Kreipel when we
Speaker 4: recently spoke to him, He's like, well, if you take
Speaker 4: everything off the table that you can't explain and say
Speaker 4: that you can explain everything on the table, you can
Speaker 4: only do that because you've a limited needed a lot
Speaker 4: of potentially curious and mysterious and aspects of our world
Speaker 4: that require deeper evaluation with a curious approach.
Speaker 1: But honestly, like, you know, when Jonathan and I started
Speaker 1: this podcast and he wanted to talk about energy and
Speaker 1: all this stuff I did, I turned my nose up
Speaker 1: at it. I was like, that's not what I'm trained
Speaker 1: to do. I'm a scientist. I don't want to be
Speaker 1: like spouting ridiculous theories and that's crazy. But you know,
Speaker 1: a combination of sort of personal exploration and kind of
Speaker 1: variety of interesting medical things happened that in many cases,
Speaker 1: Western science was not able to provide support for or
Speaker 1: an understanding and started literally on a whim exploring some
Speaker 1: more alternative methods, which honestly are not so alternative anymore.
Speaker 1: But you know, when I first started dipping a toe
Speaker 1: into this and it sort of made me think, gosh,
Speaker 1: there is more than what Western medicine can offer. And
Speaker 1: in the same way, there is more than what Western
Speaker 1: philosophy and Western rationalism can offer when we're understanding larger
Speaker 1: components of our functioning as you know, human beings, not
Speaker 1: human doings.
Speaker 4: We've also spoken to a large number of you know,
Speaker 4: very reputable scientists mds and neuroscientists and neurobiologists from Harvard
Speaker 4: and all the large schools. So and they're pushing the
Speaker 4: conversation to say, wait a second, we can use the
Speaker 4: word energy and not have it be so woo like
Speaker 4: the bodies and energetic system our selves produce energy. So like,
Speaker 4: let's redefine some of these terminologies to be more grounded
Speaker 4: and clear in terms of what we are actually using
Speaker 4: them for. And you know, so I don't think that
Speaker 4: they're the outliers in terms of or I don't think
Speaker 4: they should be discredited. That these are reputable people from
Speaker 4: recutal institutions. So what's happening is that the language and
Speaker 4: the conversation is sort of merging from the people who
Speaker 4: are either once seen as only as the ogi's or
Speaker 4: the people who are the hippies and only outside of society,
Speaker 4: and you know, would never go to a doctor. To
Speaker 4: the Western medical system, while it has its incentives to
Speaker 4: push pharmaceutical drugs and they can be helpful to reduce
Speaker 4: symptoms and suppress issues that are going on, more and
Speaker 4: more medicine and popular conversation is talking about, well, how
Speaker 4: do you build the system to run effectively. And how
Speaker 4: do our minds and our relationship to our emotions and
Speaker 4: to the things that we sense, how do those also
Speaker 4: impact our physiology our physiology as well.
Speaker 2: Hil, I want to take a moment to make a
Speaker 2: few important announcements that I'm really excited about. As you
Speaker 2: all know, I'm committed to helping people self actualize. In
Speaker 2: the service of that, I just had a new book
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Speaker 2: and realize your full potential. In this book, I offer
Speaker 2: a science backed toolkit to help you overcome your living
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Speaker 2: of feeling helpless? This book will offer you hope, not
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Speaker 2: is within you. Rise Above is available wherever you get
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Speaker 2: your coaching to the next level. I'm also excited to
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Speaker 2: clients unlock their unique creative potential. You can learn more
Speaker 2: about the course and register by going to Center for
Speaker 2: Human Potential dot com slash SAC. That's Center for Human
Speaker 2: Potential dot com slash s a C. Okay, now back
Speaker 2: to the show. Yeah, these are very obviously, very important questions.
Speaker 2: You you you wrote a book and attachment parenting or
Speaker 2: you co wrote it, right, I'm not making that up.
Speaker 3: No, I wrote it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you wrote it, Okay, excellent, called Beyond the Sling.
Speaker 2: So what what are some of the main principles in there? Like?
Speaker 2: What are like? What?
Speaker 3: What?
Speaker 2: Why did you write that book?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I should mention, you know, and my my publisher would
Speaker 1: want me to. You know, I wrote I wrote two
Speaker 1: books on puberty that were best sellers. Beyond the Sling
Speaker 1: was not a best seller, so I'm supposed to mention.
Speaker 1: Also I wrote two books on puberty, one design for girls,
Speaker 1: one designed for boys. In terms of the kind of
Speaker 1: endocrine you know, physiological and also psychological implications of puberty,
Speaker 1: and those are called girling up and buoying up. But
Speaker 1: I wrote Beyond the Sling after my second son was born.
Speaker 1: You know, at that time I was they called us
Speaker 1: mommy bloggers. You know, there was this new thing called
Speaker 1: the Internet where people who were writers, and I was
Speaker 1: a writer, could share intimate and important things about their
Speaker 1: life journey. I wrote for a Jewish parenting website called
Speaker 1: Feller dot com, and people really resonated with hearing sort
Speaker 1: of a lot of the perspectives what I specialized in,
Speaker 1: which I think in some ways is still what I
Speaker 1: specialize in now with our podcast. Apparently I specialize in
Speaker 1: taking things that people think are stupid or don't have
Speaker 1: a basis, and I explain the significance of them, either
Speaker 1: personally or scientifically. And so with Beyond the Sling, I
Speaker 1: took the principles of attached from parenting, and I explained
Speaker 1: the science behind why birth matters, why breastfeeding matters, why
Speaker 1: bonding matters, why gentle discipline matters, as opposed to using
Speaker 1: you know, harsh punishment, harsh punishment and and and you know,
Speaker 1: disciplinary measures that can and you know kind of I
Speaker 1: guess erode certain aspects of our connection with our children.
Speaker 1: And you know, at the time, people thought it was
Speaker 1: crazy to advocate for breastfeeding. They thought it was nuts
Speaker 1: that there was any value to a natural birth, or
Speaker 1: that you would insinuate that there might actually be hormones,
Speaker 1: for example, that are significant that you know, flow from
Speaker 1: the mother's body to the babies during birth.
Speaker 3: Things like that.
Speaker 1: I think it was also a time when a lot
Speaker 1: of people were concerned that bringing up anything that worked
Speaker 1: for you was an attack on people who did it differently.
Speaker 1: Meaning I never said that there are not reasons that
Speaker 1: people don't breastfeed, or that people have to breastfeed, or
Speaker 1: that people have to have natural birth.
Speaker 3: You know, I understand that's not for everyone.
Speaker 1: Sea sections can be life saving, but you know, one
Speaker 1: of the things I talked about in the book was
Speaker 1: a sea section rate of you know, thirty percent, which
Speaker 1: is about what the US hovers at. You know, at
Speaker 1: that point, the side effects of those surgeries are more
Speaker 1: are are more dangerous than than not having c sections
Speaker 1: in certain cases. So anyway, I wrote that book kind
Speaker 1: of to explain what I saw as the neuroscientific understanding
Speaker 1: of just the normal human biological process of parenting. And
Speaker 1: I also I am elactation educator, counselor so I did
Speaker 1: speak from that perspective as well. But it's kind of
Speaker 1: interesting because you know, a lot of those principles have
Speaker 1: worked their way also into our podcast, and the climate
Speaker 1: is very different now. People are out of that sort
Speaker 1: of hyper defensive mode of like I'll have a C
Speaker 1: section and use a bottle iff I want to And
Speaker 1: it's no difference. We're back to having conversations about, gosh,
Speaker 1: what does it mean when we talk about the implications
Speaker 1: of the choices we make, not just with birth or
Speaker 1: breastfeeding or anything like that, but with how we kind
Speaker 1: of conduct ourselves in general.
Speaker 2: That's wonderful. And then in terms of what you've found
Speaker 2: to be the best disciplinary method, can you just elaborate
Speaker 2: that a little bit, like because you know the recent shows,
Speaker 2: you know, like you know, gentle but firm, you know.
Speaker 1: But oh yeah, yeah, we're yeah, And I talk about
Speaker 1: that in the book, and it's actually something that does
Speaker 1: come up on our podcast a lot. We do talk
Speaker 1: about parenting and sort of what are the ways that
Speaker 1: discipline and parenting impact the brain and developing psyche of
Speaker 1: a child. Yeah, we're pretty we're pretty clear on that.
Speaker 1: I raised children with a lot of discipline, probably more
Speaker 1: discipline than I think a lot of people associate with
Speaker 1: attachment parenting per se. But yeah, one of the things
Speaker 1: that comes up a lot, and came up in our
Speaker 1: Michael Singer, it comes up in our David Rico episode.
Speaker 3: It never makes.
Speaker 1: Sense to a child to be hit by the people
Speaker 1: that are supposed to love that child. And this is
Speaker 1: something that you know, we don't really see as we
Speaker 1: don't really see as controversial. People are allowed to parent
Speaker 1: however they want, but yeah, harsh discipline and yeah, not
Speaker 1: seeing all parts of your child can be very damaging.
Speaker 1: And we've spoken to a lot of We've spoken to
Speaker 1: a lot of child specialists, and we sort of talk about,
Speaker 1: you know, what does it mean to raise a child?
Speaker 3: What does it mean to give them an environment where
Speaker 3: they can flourish spiritually, you know, psychologically, And so yeah,
Speaker 3: that's one of the things we've definitely tackled.
Speaker 2: Well, it's a really important topic.
Speaker 1: And I should add in terms of you know, kind
Speaker 1: of our conversation and the notion of what science can calibrate.
Speaker 1: I can't believe that we needed to wait for longitudinal
Speaker 1: research to show that children are who are hit and
Speaker 1: who are subjected to harsh discipline have more challenging outcome.
Speaker 1: Statistically speaking, it kind of astounded me that we had
Speaker 1: to wait for the longitudinal data on that one. And
Speaker 1: there's a lot of you know, complaints and criticism, criticism
Speaker 1: that people have about people who don't hit their children.
Speaker 1: But yeah, generally speaking, I have found that anytime that
Speaker 1: I have felt a need to be harsh, to yell
Speaker 1: at my child, to you know, feel a desire to
Speaker 1: act out at my child, it has one hundred percent
Speaker 1: of the time been that I don't have the resources,
Speaker 1: the support, or the rest that I need, or the
Speaker 1: kind of education to understand how to deal with children.
Speaker 1: It is never that children are trying anything but to
Speaker 1: have their needs met. But they will get louder if
Speaker 1: their needs are not met, and they will get more persistent.
Speaker 2: For sure, what has been your experience?
Speaker 4: Mim and I have a similar philosophy, had a similar
Speaker 4: philosophy when they were young. We actually met through our children,
Speaker 4: and I would say that there's a phrase that I've heard.
Speaker 4: I don't know where it comes from, but like, are
Speaker 4: you wiring them for connection? I don't believe personally, and
Speaker 4: this is not you know, I'm not in the data,
Speaker 4: But I don't believe personally that children have the ability
Speaker 4: to self regulate on their own. They coregulate with their
Speaker 4: adult counterparts. So sending them, for example, banishing them to
Speaker 4: their room as punishment versus Okay, we're going to have
Speaker 4: whatever this timeout is, but still being establishing that connection
Speaker 4: where you can still be in the same room, but
Speaker 4: we're going to change the activity. I think there's a
Speaker 4: huge misnomer between attachment and having no boundaries and letting
Speaker 4: them do whatever they want. It's not that you can
Speaker 4: never set boundaries that you should. You should let them
Speaker 4: know what is acceptable, what isn't when behavior needs to
Speaker 4: change when lines are crossed, but doing it in a
Speaker 4: way that is impunitive, doing it in a way where
Speaker 4: you're not removing the connection, and actually sometimes it's more connection,
Speaker 4: you know, especially during the Tamper tantrum years. And I'm
Speaker 4: not even talking about four, which is sometimes really hard
Speaker 4: because they get their own opinions and drives and motivation.
Speaker 4: But like in the ten and eleven and twelve, when
Speaker 4: sometimes there's a lot of energy and a lot of emotion.
Speaker 4: I remember even eight had a lot of that. Sometimes
Speaker 4: it was literally I'm just gonna sit on the side
Speaker 4: of your bed and you don't want me here, but
Speaker 4: I'm not going to walk away from you, even though
Speaker 4: I would rather go cool off and like look at
Speaker 4: my phone or do something other than be around you
Speaker 4: because the tension is so high. But instead, I'm gonna
Speaker 4: allow you to freak out and know that you can
Speaker 4: throw appropriate things, whether it's stuffed animals or pillows or
Speaker 4: soft stuff, you can have an appropriate response that I'm
Speaker 4: not going to squash, and you're also not going to
Speaker 4: lose connection to me for having those emotions.
Speaker 2: Beautiful, you guys sound like great parents.
Speaker 3: I'm not so good.
Speaker 2: You're trying. Can we say that at least let's say
Speaker 2: you're trying?
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, No, I definitely I do. I definitely I
Speaker 3: do my best.
Speaker 1: But I think, yeah, my goal is to have my
Speaker 1: children actively choose to hang out with me when they
Speaker 1: don't have to.
Speaker 3: That's, to me, is the measure how I'm doing.
Speaker 2: How would you describe like, if you had to describe
Speaker 2: your personality, how would you describe it?
Speaker 3: You're a little sarcastic, I'm self deprecating. I think that's
Speaker 3: uh think, Yeah.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm pretty Uh. I don't know, I mean, Jonathan
Speaker 1: probably has. It would kind of be a fun exercise
Speaker 1: to have Jonathan describe my personality and me describe his.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm very I'm very routinized, you know. I
Speaker 1: I like to say, you know when people are like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm really flexible and like I like to work with
Speaker 1: other people and get new ideas and find new ways.
Speaker 3: To do things. That is not my style.
Speaker 1: I am very rigid. But in many ways it can work,
Speaker 1: you know, in many ways it can work to to
Speaker 1: my favorite Yeah, I'm a meticulous person. I'm funny, Like
Speaker 1: I think I'm a funny person. I like to see
Speaker 1: the funny in things.
Speaker 4: And yeah, Scott, when you came on our podcast right
Speaker 4: at the beginning, you said that you're just a big child,
Speaker 4: and there's a childlike aspect of mine. Also, where if
Speaker 4: you ever watch her watching NCAA basketball, especially like men's
Speaker 4: final four, she's slamming the table. She's like has the
Speaker 4: enthusiasm that only mostly you only see in very young children.
Speaker 4: And so she'll have those ups that are really astounding
Speaker 4: and make her have the joy for the world that
Speaker 4: is quite profound. And then also she'll have the ninety
Speaker 4: year old grandma. We're doing this now, so she has
Speaker 4: both sides of those coins. But no, I would say
Speaker 4: she's philosophical and curious in many intellectually curious. She does
Speaker 4: like her routine, but when she's encouraged or nudged out
Speaker 4: of it, she offered protests. But then we'll get excited
Speaker 4: about it and then really dive in and then things
Speaker 4: quite particulously cool.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Whenever I have like a celebrity on my podcast,
Speaker 2: or like someone who's an actor actress, I always ask
Speaker 2: them who are you? They're really you because a lot
Speaker 2: of people don't really get a chance to know you know,
Speaker 2: your characters that you've played. Sure, yeah something.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's part of why that's also part
Speaker 1: of why I think, you know, there's interest in the
Speaker 1: podcast that we do is because I do choose to
Speaker 1: speak very openly and very frankly about things that you know, yes,
Speaker 1: a lot of celebrities are now talking about, but you know,
Speaker 1: four or five years ago, when we first started this,
Speaker 1: it was you know, kind of a little bit of
Speaker 1: a risky decision to say, you know, I have OCD
Speaker 1: like I didn't.
Speaker 3: I didn't, you know, we didn't call it that when
Speaker 3: I was a kid.
Speaker 1: I just these are the things about me, or I
Speaker 1: have anxiety or I had you know, I've experience and
Speaker 1: debilitating panic attacks, like I struggle with depression. You know,
Speaker 1: these are just things that many many people experience and
Speaker 1: kind of you know, I think some of that vulnerability
Speaker 1: was part of what we tried to bring as novel,
Speaker 1: you know, to our podcast. And you know, the other
Speaker 1: thing is where I'm the only non m D you know,
Speaker 1: who hosts a podcast for us that hovers where it
Speaker 1: does in Apple podcasts. You know, usually the things that
Speaker 1: we talk about are the you know, the domain of
Speaker 1: mds and also of men. So that's the other thing is,
Speaker 1: you know, as a female in the science space and
Speaker 1: as a female kind of public person in the science space,
Speaker 1: it's also an opportunity to talk about some of the
Speaker 1: unique challenges that women have, both for women to hear
Speaker 1: about and also for men to hear about. So yeah,
Speaker 1: some of that vulnerability is really built into the podcast.
Speaker 1: And I'll be honest, like, I I have social media.
Speaker 1: I see what it's like when you know, like an
Speaker 1: attractive celebrities, Like I was depressed, but then I went
Speaker 1: on this medication and everything's amazing.
Speaker 3: Now in my life is fantastic. That's not the story
Speaker 3: that we tell.
Speaker 1: I tell the story that I think a lot of
Speaker 1: people experience, which is I grew up in a really
Speaker 1: complicated home. I grew up in the family disease of alcoholism,
Speaker 1: and that means that there's a lot of coping mechanisms
Speaker 1: that the entire family has to undergo.
Speaker 3: In order to manage.
Speaker 1: And what happens is you get these really complicated personalities
Speaker 1: that sometimes have challenges with things, and there's a lot
Speaker 1: of highs and there's a lot of lows. That's my
Speaker 1: human experience. Whether you know I've been nominated for Emmys
Speaker 1: or not.
Speaker 2: I love that. And I actually I didn't know you
Speaker 2: had OCD, so I just learned that just now.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, I like to point out, like for many
Speaker 1: of us, it's just it was just how I operated.
Speaker 1: I had a very clever psychiatrist when I was in college,
Speaker 1: say do you have a favorite number?
Speaker 3: And I was like don't we all?
Speaker 1: And he's like no, And I said, well, I have
Speaker 1: seven favorite numbers. Would you like to me to explain
Speaker 1: and have a lot about counting a lot about numbers,
Speaker 1: which I think you can probably relate to. And yeah,
Speaker 1: there's many different features of OCD. I ended up studying
Speaker 1: OCD as my thesis, so yeah.
Speaker 2: Yes, I can definitely relate. I can definitely. I have
Speaker 2: a question, did you ever have any panic attacks on
Speaker 2: the set of Big Bang Theory? And I asked this
Speaker 2: because I think you are very inspirational, and especially the
Speaker 2: more that you talk about your own vulnerability, the more
Speaker 2: inspirational You've just even be come more you've just become.
Speaker 3: That's very sweet.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because a lot of people may see some of
Speaker 2: these things as debilitating, and yet you are, You've been,
Speaker 2: You've been so successful, So I'm just wondering.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, for me, panic you know, my panic disorder
Speaker 1: was in my late teens and into my twenties, so
Speaker 1: a different phase of life.
Speaker 3: And no, I think on Big Bang Theory, you know,
Speaker 3: it was a time.
Speaker 1: In my life where I ended up. You know, in
Speaker 1: that time, I got divorced, like my father died. You know,
Speaker 1: a lot of other things happen when you work with
Speaker 1: people for a decade. We all had different things happen.
Speaker 1: But what I actually started experiencing during Big Bang Theory
Speaker 1: was I began perimenopause during Big Bang theory, and I
Speaker 1: remember the exact taping when I had my first hot
Speaker 1: flash and I couldn't understand what was going on, and
Speaker 1: I thought, gosh, Amy Farafowler does wear a lot of layers.
Speaker 1: I'm really really hot tonight, like something's wrong. And I
Speaker 1: was standing in my dressing room under the air conditioner
Speaker 1: and my hair, my hair is naturally wavy, and they
Speaker 1: straightened it for Amy Farrifowler, and my hair started curling underneath,
Speaker 1: like it was like that hot in my head anyway,
Speaker 1: So that's kind of a fun thing to remember that
Speaker 1: I began the process of erymenopause on the side of
Speaker 1: Big Bang theory.
Speaker 2: So that's so interesting. Wow, So how did you how
Speaker 2: did you overcome your your panic at like it sounds
Speaker 2: like that was when you were younger.
Speaker 1: But yeah, well, you know, I think the kind of
Speaker 1: the kind of sad story is that, you know, if
Speaker 1: you presented in the late eighties early nineties to a
Speaker 1: doctor with any sort of mood disorder, the first thing
Speaker 1: they did, if you were female was to put you
Speaker 1: on birth control, even if you were not sexually active.
Speaker 1: In many cases they felt that would help. I was
Speaker 1: not having a hormonal problem, but I definitely had one
Speaker 1: after starting on the pill. And for a lot of people,
Speaker 1: birth control pills are really helpful for regulating things. But
Speaker 1: for me that was not a solution. Back then, they
Speaker 1: just put you on xanax. They put you on xan X.
Speaker 1: I didn't even really have proper therapy until I was
Speaker 1: in college. And yeah, I saw at that time a psychiatrist.
Speaker 1: This is just what mental health support looked like. They
Speaker 1: would just kind of medicate the problem and say, you're fine,
Speaker 1: You're fine, You're fine, You're and you're fine. No one
Speaker 1: asked me what was going on in my home. No
Speaker 1: one asked me what I grew up with. No one
Speaker 1: asked me what my relationship was like with my parents
Speaker 1: or my brother. You know, there was a lot going on,
Speaker 1: you know, for me. Over the course of many years
Speaker 1: and finally getting into good psychotherapy, I started exploring some
Speaker 1: of the mechanisms underlying why my brain tended to things
Speaker 1: the way that it did. Panic disorders no joke, you know,
Speaker 1: And that was actually one of the first things that
Speaker 1: when Jonathan and I started our podcast, I really wanted
Speaker 1: people to understand the difference between anxiety attacks and panic attacks,
Speaker 1: because they're very different. They have a different mechanism and
Speaker 1: they can look similar, but the fear of having a
Speaker 1: panic attack leading to other panic attacks is unique to
Speaker 1: panic disorder, and it really did. It followed me through
Speaker 1: my twenties. I did learn that there were certain environments
Speaker 1: that triggered panic, and even being around people who were
Speaker 1: intoxicated or stoned could bring on a panic attack. For me,
Speaker 1: there was something about control, the loss of control, or
Speaker 1: even experiencing other people not in control. So, yeah, I'll
Speaker 1: be honest, I took a lot of therapy. I'm a
Speaker 1: huge proponent of effective psychotherapy. There have been times in
Speaker 1: my life where I've been medicated. There have been times
Speaker 1: in my life where I have not been medicated. I
Speaker 1: don't get to say what works. But I think one
Speaker 1: of the other things we've gotten to talk about on
Speaker 1: our podcast, which I know you also are not afraid
Speaker 1: to delve into, is you know, sort of the way
Speaker 1: that we view mental health and mental health problems. There's
Speaker 1: this sort of notion that, you know, if Big Pharma
Speaker 1: says to take SSRIs, everyone needs to take SSRIs. And
Speaker 1: the fact is there's a lot of different components to
Speaker 1: how we understand our brains, how we fit what environments
Speaker 1: will bring out the best in us, and we don't
Speaker 1: all have to be the same. And that also goes
Speaker 1: for how we treat, you know, many of the mental
Speaker 1: health challenges many of us present with.
Speaker 2: So did you ever take medication for the panic attacks?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I was on Xanax for years. That
Speaker 1: was just sort of like that was the procedure. And then,
Speaker 1: you know, I definitely and we've talked about this on
Speaker 1: the podcast. You know, I've tried dozens of different medications,
Speaker 1: tried just about every known combination that there is of,
Speaker 1: you know, ssri atypical neuroeiptic, you know, like name it,
Speaker 1: add a thing, do a thing. I've seen all the commercials.
Speaker 1: We didn't have commercials back then. It was just a
Speaker 1: psychiatrist saying, try this one out. And often within a
Speaker 1: day you'd have side effects that were like I feel
Speaker 1: like my car office side of the road. Okay, stop
Speaker 1: that medication, let's try a new one. So I did
Speaker 1: that dance for many years, and yeah, my life's very
Speaker 1: different now and I have to incorporate a lot of
Speaker 1: other practices, and honestly, our podcast has been really helpful
Speaker 1: in me learning about some of the things that people
Speaker 1: do instead of being on medication. Again, we don't make
Speaker 1: any recommendations like go off your meds and have a
Speaker 1: great time, but you know, we do talk about any
Speaker 1: spiritual aspects, the role of meditation, you know, learning how
Speaker 1: to calm down your sympathetic nervous system and all those
Speaker 1: sorts of things. Those are part of you know, kind
Speaker 1: of part of my life in a different way now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so important. Yeah, we we we have we
Speaker 2: have similar similar vibes on our podcast or on our
Speaker 2: respective podcasts. That was why I'm really excited that you
Speaker 2: guys came on to Mind today and that and that
Speaker 2: I was on yours. There's there's a lot of you know,
Speaker 2: I was trying to just research you as much as
Speaker 2: I could, and I feel like there's conflicting there's a
Speaker 2: lot of there's a lot of commonly searched terms questions
Speaker 2: about you, and there's even disagreements on how your name
Speaker 2: is pronounced. And that drove me crazy. You know, is
Speaker 2: it mem or myam and and I.
Speaker 3: Just like yeah, yeah, yeah for water. So yes, I.
Speaker 2: Felt like I was trying to doubt my own sanity
Speaker 2: about that because because some i'mere like it's ma'am, and
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, well, how do I introduce her? So
Speaker 2: I had a panic attack over that, to be honest.
Speaker 2: But anyway, one thing I thought was interesting is that
Speaker 2: people keep mentioning your high IQ and you like you
Speaker 2: were listed in like top ten celebs with the highest IQ.
Speaker 2: And I find with this kind of stuff, it's not
Speaker 2: like any of these things are verified, you know, like
Speaker 2: you know, they say Einstein's IQ was like two hundred
Speaker 2: or whatever, but it's not possible actually to get I
Speaker 2: could explain the technicalities of it. You can't actually score
Speaker 2: two hundred. So have you ever had were you? First
Speaker 2: of all, were you in gifted education as a kid.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny because you know, so much of my
Speaker 1: life was determined by a test that I don't even
Speaker 1: remember taking. What is true is that I was one
Speaker 1: of many, many students, you know, in the region of
Speaker 1: Los Angeles that I live in, who went to a
Speaker 1: very fascinating school. It was the basis for Head of
Speaker 1: the Class, which was a TV show that was on
Speaker 1: about a group.
Speaker 3: Of gifted kids. So that was one way so.
Speaker 1: That no, no, that show was based on the junior
Speaker 1: high school that I went to. So I went to
Speaker 1: a particular junior high school for which there was an
Speaker 1: IQ requirement that apparently I satisfied, as did all of
Speaker 1: the other people. I like to say I was one
Speaker 1: of the stupidest people in that entire junior high school,
Speaker 1: because my junior high school was largely made up of
Speaker 1: you know, kids who completed their high school math and
Speaker 1: physics and all those things in the seventh grade.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: It was a program where some of our teachers were
Speaker 1: professors from MIT. I was learning logic and Latin in
Speaker 1: the seventh grade. So I went to one of these
Speaker 1: kind of programs.
Speaker 3: But I'm a.
Speaker 1: Public I'm a product of public school. I'm a product
Speaker 1: of the public school educational system. My parents were teachers.
Speaker 1: My parents had a combined like seventy years of teaching.
Speaker 1: My dad was a public school teacher. My mom was
Speaker 1: a nursery school director. I'm a second generation American kid
Speaker 1: whose parents never owned a house. We rented. You know,
Speaker 1: everything was all broken, the floors were always torn up.
Speaker 1: We didn't have heat when I was a kid, or
Speaker 1: air conditioning for that matter.
Speaker 3: So I'm just a kid.
Speaker 1: Who went to public school. I'm a product of the
Speaker 1: busing program. But they took kids from poor neighborhoods in
Speaker 1: the late seventies early eighties, and they put us on
Speaker 1: buses to send us to fancy schools that had magnet programs.
Speaker 1: And the idea was that every child, no matter what
Speaker 1: their background, deserves the right to have access to an
Speaker 1: enriched education. So I was the product of those programs.
Speaker 1: And you know, I was one of these kids who
Speaker 1: if you look at my report cards, you know I
Speaker 1: was always talking. I had trouble not focusing on whatever
Speaker 1: boy I had a crush on. I made a tremendous
Speaker 1: amount of careless errors. I worked very very fast. I'd
Speaker 1: never fit the diagnosis of like an ADHD kid, But
Speaker 1: I was always rushing. There was always like a fire
Speaker 1: under my tush.
Speaker 3: I don't know why.
Speaker 1: It's just a self generated yeah, meaning it was nothing
Speaker 1: from the school environment that I was in.
Speaker 3: So I don't remember taking an IQ test. My brother
Speaker 3: skipped a grade.
Speaker 1: My parents assumed that I would do the same, so
Speaker 1: they started me in kindergarten a year early.
Speaker 3: So I was always really tiny. I was always the youngest.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I had parents also who, like I said,
Speaker 1: they were both teachers, so they were very you know,
Speaker 1: my mom was very into helping with all my projects,
Speaker 1: and my dad, you know as well, did homework with me.
Speaker 1: But I struggled a lot. And you know, I think
Speaker 1: it's really popular for people to be like, oh, the
Speaker 1: celebrity is so smart and blah blah blah, and and
Speaker 1: the fact is, yes, I went to college, I went
Speaker 1: to grad school, but even in grad school, I really struggled.
Speaker 1: I was not a natural science thinker or a science student.
Speaker 1: So you know, for me, it's very interesting that as
Speaker 1: a celebrity, I'm sort of held up to this like
Speaker 1: she's so smart, whereas in grad school it was kind
Speaker 1: of like, I don't know if my mom's going to finish,
Speaker 1: like I really she just is having trouble with data
Speaker 1: analysis and stats right now.
Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, because like on the internet, it's so specific.
Speaker 2: It says that it's reported between one fifty three and
Speaker 2: one sixty like a very specific band.
Speaker 3: No, and I don't know how any I don't know
Speaker 3: how anyone also even like have that.
Speaker 1: Like I said, the junior high school that I went
Speaker 1: to did have a minimum requirement which was around that.
Speaker 1: But no, I've never released the results of my IQ
Speaker 1: test and you know, for me, I think that you know,
Speaker 1: I was a natural humanity student. I'm a very fast writer.
Speaker 1: I'm a very fast reader. Never would it have occurred
Speaker 1: to me that I could even master math or science
Speaker 1: the way that I ended up doing it. And so,
Speaker 1: you know, I think the brain obviously is malleable, and
Speaker 1: so much of that was about habits. It was about
Speaker 1: as you know, as you've written about so brilliantly, you
Speaker 1: have to teach to where a kid is at. And
Speaker 1: for me, I needed a one on one tutor to
Speaker 1: show me how to organize, you know, memorizing. I do
Speaker 1: have a I have a somewhat photographic memory, which does
Speaker 1: make certain things.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it does make certain things easier.
Speaker 1: But you know, when it comes to you know, analysis,
Speaker 1: and I never imagined I would do the highest level
Speaker 1: of physics, biochemistry, calculus, you know, the chemistry, like the
Speaker 1: things that were required of me in college and in
Speaker 1: grad school. Even though I struggled, you know, I had
Speaker 1: a deep love and understanding of the nervous system, you know,
Speaker 1: which you know is the basis of how I see
Speaker 1: the world.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well you obviously, however you slice and dice it.
Speaker 2: You're very smart, but you do. Also you do point
Speaker 2: out I also.
Speaker 3: Do a lot of really stupid things. Though you'd be surprised.
Speaker 2: You're funny, because I was just going to say, but
Speaker 2: don't worry, I'm going to deprecate you now, but you
Speaker 2: did it yourself. You did it yourself. So I was
Speaker 2: going to other deprecate and then you self deprecated. But no,
Speaker 2: I was going to say, but you illustrate how even
Speaker 2: gifted kids, you know, it doesn't mean that you have,
Speaker 2: you know, a complete, like high profile on every specific ability.
Speaker 2: You do. Actually often see lots of jagged profiles, as
Speaker 2: we call them, technically amongst gifted children. So I appreciate
Speaker 2: you speaking to that and you.
Speaker 1: And also I also just to speak just to speak
Speaker 1: to that point. You know, my parents started teaching in
Speaker 1: Harlem and the Bronx, you know, and at a time
Speaker 1: when black students weren't even allowed into the you know,
Speaker 1: New York public school system, and my mother, my mother
Speaker 1: taught at a women's prison. You know, I was raised
Speaker 1: on stories of every child deserves an education, every child
Speaker 1: deserves enrichment opportunities. So I think that also, you know,
Speaker 1: I never felt big for my breches because I was
Speaker 1: raised to believe what I still believe is true. Every
Speaker 1: single child, if placed in the right environment, can be
Speaker 1: loved supported. You know, given that opportunity to shine, and
Speaker 1: the fact that we now can talk about different kinds
Speaker 1: of intelligence, which is something also Jonathan is introduced to
Speaker 1: our podcast as a place of conversation is incredibly important.
Speaker 1: Jonathan is a person who you know, struggled to read,
Speaker 1: to write. You know, he was also being taught three
Speaker 1: languages because he's Canadian and that's what they do there.
Speaker 1: But you know, Jonathan has been one of the people
Speaker 1: who's been very helpful in helping that become part of
Speaker 1: our podcast conversation of some people are spiritually intelligent.
Speaker 3: What does that mean?
Speaker 1: What does it mean if they can't spell, but they
Speaker 1: have an understanding of things that are beyond our understanding.
Speaker 1: That's intelligent too, And your book really helped me see, like, gosh,
Speaker 1: the entire system is structured around, you know, a scaffold
Speaker 1: that in many cases is helpful, like for I don't know,
Speaker 1: like military or you know, if you're trying to run
Speaker 1: a government, but not necessarily if you're trying to grow
Speaker 1: human beings.
Speaker 2: Well, that's exactly right. And I appreciate you trying to
Speaker 2: bring Jonathan, and we don't want Jonathan to feel left
Speaker 2: out at all here. I am. I am fascinated with
Speaker 2: your early childhood and your you know, I still I
Speaker 2: don't know, like why did you go into acting? Like
Speaker 2: why bloss Like how did that come about?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I liked performing in school plays, and you know, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of reasons that. Yeah, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: reasons that actors, you know, like and seek that kind
Speaker 1: of approval and attention. You know, I had friends, and
Speaker 1: I was popular, but my favorite thing was to make
Speaker 1: a teacher like me, especially a difficult teacher. You know.
Speaker 1: I was really am a you know, a master of reading,
Speaker 1: reading the room and trying to you know, bend it
Speaker 1: to my will.
Speaker 3: So I really liked school plays, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it is it's it's control, but it's
Speaker 1: also safety. You know, for me, it wasn't from a
Speaker 1: it wasn't from a malicious perspective.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 1: But but some people really like applause. You know, some
Speaker 1: people really like to know that like they're amazing. That's
Speaker 1: not my interest, you know, do you think I'm amazing
Speaker 1: enough that you're happy that you know, that's kind of
Speaker 1: like the definition of a codependent actor. But for me,
Speaker 1: you know, for me, I thought that that meant that
Speaker 1: I should like be an actor, like I'm so charismatic,
Speaker 1: but you know, I kind of wasn't one of these
Speaker 1: like Hollywood hammy kids. You know, I felt very awkward
Speaker 1: at auditions, and most kids who were auditioning for things
Speaker 1: had been acting since they were two or three, and
Speaker 1: I was a late bloomer to start at eleven. You know,
Speaker 1: I was literally in rooms with kids who were real
Speaker 1: master manipulators of an environment.
Speaker 3: And you know, I would go to auditions.
Speaker 1: It was not uncommon for children and their parents to
Speaker 1: say to you, you look tired. Okay, I don't know
Speaker 1: if you're going to do well today on this audition.
Speaker 1: You look a little tired. And that was just like,
Speaker 1: you know, standard issue.
Speaker 2: So it.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm grateful that my parents, my mother in particular,
Speaker 1: believed in me enough to not point out to me
Speaker 1: that no one on television looked like I did, meaning
Speaker 1: the notion that a large, featured, you know, very scrawny,
Speaker 1: poor Jewish kid you know, from Hollywood should make it
Speaker 1: in the duet. There was nothing on television to indicate
Speaker 1: that my face was going to belong anywhere, and indeed
Speaker 1: I didn't do well in commercials, like because they wanted
Speaker 1: it was called all American if you can imagine it.
Speaker 1: At the time, they wanted all American kids. That was
Speaker 1: the literally in the casting description, and I was called
Speaker 1: in if it said all ethnicities submitted, which meant yeah.
Speaker 3: So like I was like this like weird looking kid.
Speaker 1: And a year after I started acting, I got cast
Speaker 1: to play the young Bett Middler in Beaches and that's
Speaker 1: kind of where my life changed.
Speaker 3: And I was then given my own TV show after that.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I remember that. I remember Beaches. Okay, that
Speaker 2: was you.
Speaker 3: I was a little redhead girl. Yeah, oh my god.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. What does large feature mean?
Speaker 1: By the way, I mean like I have an you know,
Speaker 1: I have an Eastern European face. I have a prominent nose,
Speaker 1: a prominent chin. Yeah, so like, you know, all American
Speaker 1: kids they wanted like small features and like blue eyes
Speaker 1: and blonde hair.
Speaker 3: And just like get it, very totally generic. Yeah, and
Speaker 3: I looked like, you know, an Eastern European kid.
Speaker 2: I totally get it. Wow. Okay, well, I mean yeah,
Speaker 2: I just think that you're you're you really are inspirational
Speaker 2: a lot of people. And you also, I mean I've
Speaker 2: really admired the way that you just spoke out when
Speaker 2: the me Too movement happened in Hollywood, Like that's something
Speaker 2: I wanted to just register. I really appreciated that, and
Speaker 2: you know, just being able to kind of talk about
Speaker 2: like you're you're a woman in that in that business,
Speaker 2: like you have eyes and I'm sure you've noticed a
Speaker 2: lot of patterns of behavior that that probably annoyed you
Speaker 2: over the years, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's funny like I was on Big
Speaker 1: Bang Theory at the time, you know that the me
Speaker 1: Too movement happened, and yeah, I didn't. I mean, I
Speaker 1: have a lot of I got a lot of attention,
Speaker 1: you know at the time over a piece that I
Speaker 1: had written for The New York Times before actually the
Speaker 1: metoom movement happened.
Speaker 3: But you know, being on Big Bang Theory at.
Speaker 1: The time was a very interesting, you know, sense of
Speaker 1: perspective because you know, there are so many, so many
Speaker 1: ways that people interact when they do have familiarity, and
Speaker 1: kind of everything comes into question when you have a
Speaker 1: movement like that, you know, rock the industry, and I
Speaker 1: think we're still seeing you know, the impact of that,
Speaker 1: and obviously it's standing out as it should.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, what I really like about you is you
Speaker 2: really your whole career, You've really leaned into what is
Speaker 2: unique about you and without apology or shame, and I
Speaker 2: think that is beautiful. Do you feel do you ever
Speaker 2: feel imposter syndrome about anything about science or acting?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I think Jonathan can probably.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think Jonathan can also probably speak to that
Speaker 1: because it definitely plays into when he has to like
Speaker 1: pitch things for the podcast and I always think no
Speaker 1: one wants to talk to us.
Speaker 3: Arm.
Speaker 4: Your homework after this episode is to go back and
Speaker 4: watch the Glenn and Door episode of Mine, the Alex Breakdown,
Speaker 4: which is I don't know, first fifteen episodes, and that
Speaker 4: will be your answer.
Speaker 1: Okay, So yes, a lot a lot of a lot
Speaker 1: of imposter syndrome, a lot of a lot of fear.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think, you know, in many ways, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm trained as a scientist. And again it's like really
Speaker 1: fun for Hollywood headlines to be like doctor miam bi Alec,
Speaker 1: but I'm not a practicing neuroscientist. I did not do
Speaker 1: a post doc, you know, like going back into academia
Speaker 1: is not is something I knew that when I stayed
Speaker 1: home with my you know, my kids, I knew was
Speaker 1: an avenue that was closed to me.
Speaker 3: So I serve a different purpose as a scientist.
Speaker 1: But that sort of you know, creates imposter syndrome on
Speaker 1: the academic side, and then on the Hollywood side, there's
Speaker 1: always this notion of like, oh but she did this
Speaker 1: other thing, and oh she's been nominated for five Emmys
Speaker 1: but she's never won, and you know, she's not leading
Speaker 1: lady looks, but like she's got her own thing. So yeah,
Speaker 1: a lot of sort of in between this, which again
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people can relate to, even
Speaker 1: if it's not on you know, the kind of scale
Speaker 1: or in the in the ways that I experienced it.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people feel a little bit stuck.
Speaker 3: In the middle.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember you called me. You're like, well you're
Speaker 2: a real scientist, you said to me when I was
Speaker 2: on your show, And that really that really actually took
Speaker 2: me back because I was like, I don't know, I
Speaker 2: felt like I wanted to like defend you, like I
Speaker 2: went into like justice mode with that comment, because I
Speaker 2: was like, you're a freaking phdner it is, so people
Speaker 2: don't realize how hard I don't know if I could
Speaker 2: do it. Well, I did do a PhD, but strike
Speaker 2: that from the record. I did do a PhD neuro science,
Speaker 2: but I was gonna say, I don't know if I
Speaker 2: could do it.
Speaker 5: But I think people don't realize I forgot who I
Speaker 5: was for a second there, But I people don't realize
Speaker 5: how freaking hard it is to do a PhD in neuroscience.
Speaker 2: Not only how hard it is, but how much you
Speaker 2: have to really learn the literature and what is They
Speaker 2: don't certify you to be a PhD unless you also
Speaker 2: show knowledge of the pre existing literature at a really
Speaker 2: high level.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and also, I mean I did this at a
Speaker 1: time you know you can probably relate. You know, I
Speaker 1: did my PhD before the use of computers as the
Speaker 1: basis for your literature study. So you know, for us
Speaker 1: old dinosaurs, you know, it was it was a very
Speaker 1: different process.
Speaker 3: Things weren't available online.
Speaker 1: There was a handful of things you could get online,
Speaker 1: but most everything you had to sort of get in person,
Speaker 1: purchase the journal, or go to the library and do
Speaker 1: it in the stack. So it was a very interesting,
Speaker 1: kind of laborious process. But yeah, I mean, look, I
Speaker 1: went to UCLA. It's a very very fine research institution,
Speaker 1: and you know, I worked in the neuropsychiatric Institute, and
Speaker 1: I was really grateful to use the resources, you know,
Speaker 1: to work with the population that I did. And yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I ended up studying the hypothalamic pituitary adrenal axis,
Speaker 1: which comes up a lot on our podcast as people
Speaker 1: talk about stress and about trauma and so you know,
Speaker 1: I actually, I am really grateful that I have that vocabulary.
Speaker 3: And yeah, I'm very proud, Bruin.
Speaker 1: You know, I was there for the entirety of my
Speaker 1: undergrad and graduate career and so yeah, it's it's it's
Speaker 1: something to be very very proud of. And like I said,
Speaker 1: there's also been so many iterations of my life and
Speaker 1: becoming a parent and choosing to be home you know,
Speaker 1: definitely shifts that and those are decisions that are still hard,
Speaker 1: you know for women and of course for men, but
Speaker 1: that's still something you know, that's a that's a real challenge.
Speaker 2: Yeah. The dissertation it was called Hypothalmic regulation and relation
Speaker 2: to maladaptive, obsessic, compulsive, affiliative and satiety behaviors and Praeter
Speaker 2: Willie syndrome. Do you have any scientific journal articles that
Speaker 2: you published from that.
Speaker 1: No, My my doctoral research was like an exploratory study,
Speaker 1: so yeah, it wasn't something that was published from there.
Speaker 1: I did you know, I co authored a chapter in
Speaker 1: a neuroscience textbook with a few others from my lab
Speaker 1: for the research that I did an undergrad.
Speaker 3: But no, I was not a journal person. And yeah,
Speaker 3: I was part of a very small lab.
Speaker 1: And actually my thesis advisor moved to Vanderbilt right after
Speaker 1: I declared my my doctorals subject, so I was actually
Speaker 1: supervised from AFAR, so I wasn't part of a larger lab.
Speaker 2: Well, I'll link in the show notes to your dissertation
Speaker 2: from profile.
Speaker 3: Thanks. I think you can see the abstract. Yeah, it's
Speaker 3: so hot.
Speaker 2: I think the whole things here. Yeah, the whole I got.
Speaker 2: I got the whole thing right here.
Speaker 3: That's good times.
Speaker 2: Yeah, good beach reading.
Speaker 4: J C. J C.
Speaker 2: We're going to bring you in here for the last
Speaker 2: couple of minutes. I do want to talk a little
Speaker 2: bit about the difference between spiritual intelligence and i Q
Speaker 2: type intelligence. J C. Jonathan Cohene, you seem you strike
Speaker 2: me as someone with high spiritual intelligence. It's just an
Speaker 2: intuition I get about you. What is your own inner experience,
Speaker 2: like do you feel like you draw a lot on
Speaker 2: your own sort of intuition and uh and kind of
Speaker 2: altered state of conscious consciousness one.
Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, I guess I don't know, I gather Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: I definitely do. I don't necessarily, you know, intellectualize it
Speaker 4: as that.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm, yeah, what is the experience? Like do you
Speaker 2: both of you two do you do you feel it?
Speaker 2: Would you describe yourself as uh having spiritual intelligence.
Speaker 1: And Jonathan as a yet Jonathan has a belief in
Speaker 1: you know, energetic things and things that I struggle to
Speaker 1: even understand. But you know, as I as I frame it,
Speaker 1: he like checks in with the universe throughout the day
Speaker 1: about intuition and like that's new to me.
Speaker 2: Wait, really if I have to explain it?
Speaker 4: And this is something that was developed over time, right,
Speaker 4: Like I came to a lot of this stuff through
Speaker 4: intense emotional struggle, intense depression, questioning if life is worth
Speaker 4: it and what the path is? What is there a future?
Speaker 4: And throughout a lot of you know, finding joy and
Speaker 4: things to feel connected to. I had various teachers along
Speaker 4: the way, and one of them basically explained the universe
Speaker 4: or you know, the world we're living in is being
Speaker 4: filled with frequency, almost like radio wave. And so when
Speaker 4: I use it like that, when I sort of tune in,
Speaker 4: what I'm doing is holding an idea, a thought, a possibility,
Speaker 4: a situation in my mind and then going to where
Speaker 4: that thing is around me, because I don't believe it
Speaker 4: is in me. I believe that the body is an
Speaker 4: instrument that can sense and deliver feedback, and that the
Speaker 4: information or you know, by creating an image like pick
Speaker 4: a scenario, you know, how would it be to make
Speaker 4: four of these decisions, or like launch a new podcast
Speaker 4: about this particular topic. Is there energy or resonance around
Speaker 4: that the way I'm imagining it, And I can close
Speaker 4: my eyes and then travel inward while also holding that
Speaker 4: understanding or that image and sort of tune in and
Speaker 4: use the body as a calibrated tool to say, is
Speaker 4: there what does that feel like? And it could feel
Speaker 4: really intense and powerful, like there's a big spark. It
Speaker 4: could feel sort of sputtery or fleeting. It could feel disperse,
Speaker 4: It could have a shark to it, and there's sort
Speaker 4: of all variety of different feedback that can be delivered,
Speaker 4: and I use that to help me. Makes I just
Speaker 4: use it as another input, and then I analyze it, Well,
Speaker 4: why does it feel really disperse and like it's kind
Speaker 4: of floating and there's nothing that I can tangibly hold
Speaker 4: on to. Well, what if I add an element? What
Speaker 4: if it's not the idea I thought about but something else,
Speaker 4: and does it change something? Or what if it's I
Speaker 4: add a person to it? And then sometimes it's like, Okay,
Speaker 4: I'll put it away and then I'll wait for that
Speaker 4: idea to come back and play with it again. But yeah,
Speaker 4: there's all manner of strategies to use that information. And
Speaker 4: I consider that information to be as valuable or more
Speaker 4: valuable because it can see beyond, you know, the two
Speaker 4: hundred foot headlight beam that I might have through my
Speaker 4: intellect and knowledge alone, because it calculates variables that may
Speaker 4: not have happened yet.
Speaker 2: Thank you for expressing that. I think that it's very
Speaker 2: hard for people who are not like that to wrap
Speaker 2: their heads around what it's like to be like that.
Speaker 2: I'm resonating, like, do you ever meet someone where it
Speaker 2: just you feel like there's some sort of incongruence and
Speaker 2: you just can't articulate it yet or cognitively figure out.
Speaker 2: But it kind of irks. It mirks me when I
Speaker 2: see such extreme incongruence.
Speaker 4: I mean, the most simplistic way to describe it is
Speaker 4: that the vibe is off. But that's not a scientific term,
Speaker 4: and it's not intellectual, and you know, it's very easy
Speaker 4: to dismiss that because it's so subjective. But I would imagine,
Speaker 4: you know, if someone is coming to you and trying
Speaker 4: to like give you rational intellectual explanations of why something
Speaker 4: should happen or is a certain way, but there's an incongruence,
Speaker 4: you can sense it immediately. And for me what happens
Speaker 4: is my ears. I'm an auditory processor, and when someone
Speaker 4: talks to me without a high level of congruence, I
Speaker 4: don't hear what they're saying. All I hear is like,
Speaker 4: like I actually hear it, Like I could say, here's
Speaker 4: kind of what I think you're saying to me, but
Speaker 4: it sounds like gibber gibberish. It's like one wa wah,
Speaker 4: and I'll be like, well, you kind of just said
Speaker 4: this and that and the other thing, But I don't
Speaker 4: think it's any of those things that you're talking about.
Speaker 2: Do you feel like you can detect psychopaths like I
Speaker 2: feel like I get like a certain spidy spidy tingle
Speaker 2: when I meet some people, and it's like very rare.
Speaker 2: I'm not saying this happens every day in my life.
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm also very sensitive to other people's
Speaker 2: emotional lives. I can generalize it beyond just the psychopath thing,
Speaker 2: and it's hard for me to like differentiate their emotional
Speaker 2: life from my emotional life, like because I feel like
Speaker 2: it's it's you know, sometimes I get overloaded. I get
Speaker 2: so overwhelmed with feeling whatever they're feeling or not feeling
Speaker 2: in the case of sometimes I am in the presence
Speaker 2: of people I feel like are so devoid of being
Speaker 2: able to like make a human connection that it like
Speaker 2: really scares me in a way.
Speaker 4: Well, there's a couple of things that strike me about
Speaker 4: what you're saying. Yeah, And I do relate, and I
Speaker 4: appreciate you sharing that because.
Speaker 2: I think it is I thank you forget I have
Speaker 2: no idea what you're talking about, Scott, I think no, no,
Speaker 2: not at all.
Speaker 4: I forget who we were talking to recently, but like
Speaker 4: we were having a conversation and was like, of course
Speaker 4: we interact before we actually physically meet someone, like we
Speaker 4: had we've spoken about the idea that our physical body
Speaker 4: is not the limit of of us, meaning that there's
Speaker 4: an energetic body around the physical body. So and this
Speaker 4: happens through time and space. Also like we're on this
Speaker 4: zoom and of course we're interacting, but when we met
Speaker 4: in person. You know, as you arrive, all parts of
Speaker 4: you have arrived at the house, and then you get closer,
Speaker 4: and we're analyzing that data before you walk in the door.
Speaker 4: Then you walk in the door, and we're analyzing that data.
Speaker 4: So what I hear you saying is like you're just
Speaker 4: analyzing that data and aware that you're analyzing it. Most
Speaker 4: people do that anyway, have a visceral response, but the
Speaker 4: logical mind is so geared to being the dominant force
Speaker 4: that they're not aware that this is happening. So they
Speaker 4: may start to be like, oh, my stomach hurts, but
Speaker 4: actually maybe there's something going on in that interaction or
Speaker 4: other people, you know, they may come into a room
Speaker 4: and almost like kind of glom onto someone and they're oh,
Speaker 4: Scott's going to get a book. He's out, he's out
Speaker 4: of here, he's back.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, Well, I would say that not everyone feels
Speaker 2: that way though. No, I think you're giving everyone too
Speaker 2: much credit.
Speaker 4: What I would say is that that that communication is
Speaker 4: happening all around. But I think in my experience there's
Speaker 4: a few things that caveat this. One is that some
Speaker 4: people's energy body is very shut down and it's not
Speaker 4: a vibrant force around them. That can be the result.
Speaker 4: In my again, non scientific analysis, could be the result
Speaker 4: of many different reasons, so that I won't go into.
Speaker 4: But I do believe that actually most people are feel it,
Speaker 4: but are not registering the fact that they're feeling it.
Speaker 2: Interesting, guys, I know we have to go, and it's
Speaker 2: killing me because I'm left wanting to continue this conversation.
Speaker 2: So why don't we be friends? And I mean, with
Speaker 2: your permission, with consent, let's be friends. And and I
Speaker 2: really want to keep up the conversation. This is a
Speaker 2: great book that no one's read except me called Boundaries
Speaker 2: in the Mind, And something I'm super fascinated with, which
Speaker 2: relates to what we're talking about, is their individual differences.
Speaker 2: There really are in people who have inner boundaries between
Speaker 2: self and world, and there's so much here that hasn't
Speaker 2: been scientific investigated. I'm here, I'm here for it.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I'd love to I'd love to continue this.
Speaker 1: Hopefully we'll have other opportunities to talk. One of the
Speaker 1: things that Jonathan, you know, has sort of taught me
Speaker 1: about is that a lot of the reactions that I have,
Speaker 1: in many cases, a lot of the anxiety I have
Speaker 1: may actually be that I'm receiving information that I honestly
Speaker 1: don't know how to process, or that I'm being influenced
Speaker 1: by things that I previously thought were you know, woo woo.
Speaker 1: But you know, I've had more than one person say gosh,
Speaker 1: certain people are really sensitive to things like, you know,
Speaker 1: even if you don't want to believe in em f stuff,
Speaker 1: sensitive to sound, sensitive to other people's emotions in ways
Speaker 1: that can disrupt your being. And it's been a really
Speaker 1: interesting exploration to say, gosh, what happens when we get quieter,
Speaker 1: when we try and master, you know, what's going on
Speaker 1: inside of us before trying to take care of what's
Speaker 1: going on with other people.
Speaker 2: Guys, so much here, so much here, Because I really
Speaker 2: do think there's something profound here. I really do think
Speaker 2: people differ in their boundaries and the way their brains
Speaker 2: are wired to allow them to receive and not receive stuff.
Speaker 2: So let's put it, let's table that for a further discussion.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, guys for being on my podcast.
Speaker 2: And this has been such a delight being on your
Speaker 2: podcast and then you guys coming on my podcast. It's
Speaker 2: been an absolute delight for me. I hope it's been
Speaker 2: for you.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 1: We hope it will continue continue in our friendship and
Speaker 1: the work that we do.
Speaker 2: So thank you sounds great.